[JackStraw]

I actually grew up in Plum and know Rte. 286 only too well. While I agree it it totally inadequate, I also see it as one of the most worthless, miserable, pathetically ugly examples of shitty Pittsburgh suburban roadways. It is lined with a crappy mish mash of low end, low density retail and service operations jammed in a narrow valley that has been gouged out of the hillsides. The strip mine - like, barren, naked cut out hill sides still remain decades and decades after they were first bull dozed out of the natural landscape. There is not one socially redeeming aspect to the entire Rte 286 corridor. No landscaping, to attempt whatsoever at lifting it to a decent level of quality. A sewage treatment plant and a natural gas plant still occupy frontage along the way. So visually deplorable is that stretch, that an empty parcel of land still sits there near Pine valley Rd after what, 30 years! Rte 286 is so ugly, so decrepit and so disfunctional, I wouldn't waist a dime on it either.

You are very correct. I hate the corridor so much. I spent years working at the old food gallery (now a shop n save) right near that natural gas plant. When I was in college there was talk about widening it because of the traffic problems. I don't know if they are still planning to or not. The area around that new dairy queen where it turns into 380 exploded with new subdivisions. All with the typical corny names. I believe they are also in the process of widening 22 through murrysville, but that is a state project to make it a interstate the whole way to State College.

[Johnland]

LOL. I get very aggravated when I drive out to my parents near Murrysville. I sometimes go off on my anti-exurbs rants. I was driving through Monroeville. They have a new Ryan Homes development called "Whistling Pines". I want to be the guy who comes up with these cheesy names for subdivisions.

I get so fed up when I see neighborhoods cut apart by highways. I also get pissed when I go out for a hike and the trail has to cross yet another highway. PA went crazy with it's highways.

Also, for the record. I am not anti-suburbs all together. Towns like Oakmont, and Mt. Lebenon are some of my favorites. I could see myself living in areas like this if I was older and had kids.

Yes, the laughable names they come up for these land-destroying subdivisions provide little comic relief against the social and environmental choas that ensues.

I know this off the Pittsburgh topic, but here in Tampa, I work in a suburban corporate campus called, now get this, 'Highwoods Preserve' If by 'preserve', they mean encased forever under asphalt, then yes, it is 'preserved'. Otherwise, it's just plain old regular natural environmental destruction. It's way out in an area north of the city that was until about 15 years ago pristine wetlands and forests. This corporate complex is built on fill, that is then paved over. At the edges, the parking lots end and the land slopes down into swamps. This whole area is being developed by paving over wetlands. What really kills me is seeing the beautiful birds, large grey cranes and white herons and egrets, all pecking at mowed sod, that is ladden with car exhaust, insecticides and chemical fertilizers. Or they graze in the medians of car clogged roads.

And yet, new subdivisions are going in ever further into the wetlands. They are all named Seven Oaks, Live Oak, Lexington Oak, etc ad nasuem, or Pepple Creek, Oak Creek, etc. It's insane. But what's scary is, it is booming. The roads are full of SUV's, merrily sitting in bumper to bumper traffic, crawling to and fro thier jobs and homes. Sometimes I think I am the only person who sees this absolute farce of a lifestyle. It's addicted to foreign oil, it's killing off the wetlands that feeds the river that is the source of Tampa water, it hinders the city neighborhoods to revitalize and compete. And for what, for more crap int he suburbs.

Well, speaking of rants, I know I am on one now. Enough said on the above. But I will say it is the suburbs that will drive me back to the city. I lived in Pittsburgh at one time. I could definitely go back. Not only because I love the city, but I feel that established cities just make so much more sense. They've already been developed. Leave the natural land alone. Our national mindset is too geared toward the throw-away concept. I say 'recycle' cities.

[tooluther]

wow, lots of anger on this board recently haha...I'm out in Vegas this weekend. You guys are arguing about poor urban planning...I'm surrounded by it!

[B4burgh]

The problem is no suburban Joe Schmoe is going to pay his taxes for light rail that maybe in 20 years will extend out to him, when all he wants is to bump his highway from four lanes to six. What the city has to do now is work backwards. Make the people in the suburbs see that what goes on in the city applies to them rather than the opposite. For example some people in the suburbs (in my experience) like to believe the city doesn't even exist. Make it apparent that without the city the suburbs will collapse too, that will get people talking!

[PA Pride]

I second all the well thought out ideas on this page without taking the time to come up with my own lengthy response.

[marinog]

I work out in Seven FIelds (Cranberry) area but I refuse to live out there... Instead I live in Shadyside and drive forever to get to and from work... The only good thing is Im heading out of the city when everyone is heading in... I need to find a new job... I hate Cranberry and just about everthing associated with it... I spend approx $300 - $400 a month on gas money... Thats it, Im quitting tomorrow... Anyone Hiring???

[xyagentguy]

I can completely respect all this chatter about the suburbs and how ridiculous it is, but at the same time, people have a god-given right to live wherever they please.

I can't fault someone for wanting to live in a beautiful home with a big yard and places for their dogs and children to play.

I mean, who am I to fault them? Some of Pittsburgh's suburbs are extremely attractive even to me, a city boy. And like someone mentioned before, it's easy for us to attack such lifestyles. But a city isn't built on solely city dwellers. If every suburbanite in Pittsburgh all of a sudden moved to the city (which would be impossible) there would be absolute meltdown.

[Evergrey]

I can completely respect all this chatter about the suburbs and how ridiculous it is, but at the same time, people have a god-given right to live wherever they please.

I can't fault someone for wanting to live in a beautiful home with a big yard and places for their dogs and children to play.

I mean, who am I to fault them? Some of Pittsburgh's suburbs are extremely attractive even to me, a city boy. And like someone mentioned before, it's easy for us to attack such lifestyles. But a city isn't built on solely city dwellers. If every suburbanite in Pittsburgh all of a sudden moved to the city (which would be impossible) there would be absolute meltdown.

You're not getting it. There's "good suburbia" and "bad suburbia". "Good suburbia" is largely an extension of the "urban fabric" of Pittsburgh. These are usually "inner ring" suburbs near the city or the old milltowns and "streetcar suburbs" that line the rivers in every direction. Heck, in most states, many of these inner ring older suburbs would be city neighborhoods, but Pennsylvania has an extremely fragmented system of municipal governance that severely underbounds the core city and creates a ridiculous proliferation of tiny suburban municipalities.

The "pro-urban city-lover" crowd has nothing against Sewickley, Edgewood, Aspinwall, Mt. Lebanon, Dormont, Carnegie, New Kensington, Glassport, Canonsburg, Coraopolis, McKees Rocks or the county seats that 30 miles out from the city in the surrounding counties.

The ire is reserved for the post-WW2 auto-dependent sprawl... which is usually in the outer rings of Allegheny County and surrounding counties... places such as the "North Hills", Cranberry, Robinson, Peters, Murrysville, that huge mass of sprawl that surrounds US30 in Westmoreland County, etc.

If you're a "real place"... you get no ire from me. It's the "no places" that are detrimental to the region. You may have a "God given right" to live out in the middle of nowhere, waste lots of resources on your long commute and stress the region's infrastructure... but local, state and federal governments should not subsidize (directly and indirectly) this destructive behavior to the detriment of the urban core and the countryside. If you want a "fake country" existence out in the middle of Murrysville... go ahead... but the government had better not blast a highway through my neighborhood so that you can get to your job downtown and take your taxable income back to bumf*ck.

[Grego43]

And now you want to obliterate our Hazelwood with your Mon-Fayette boondoggle. And you want to "save" the Mon Valley by destroying it... blasting your highway through the center of Braddock, Rankin and other Mon Valley communities.


Have you been throught the Mon Valley recently? Braddock, Rankin, Duquesne, McKeesport have all be "saved" to death! The 21st century is passing them by. The brownfields will remain, the towns and cities will continue to rot, and population will continue to flee without new business & industry. Do you have any good ideas as to what industries may flourish without proper access? The last person out of the Mon Valley, please turn out the lights.

[JackStraw]

I can completely respect all this chatter about the suburbs and how ridiculous it is, but at the same time, people have a god-given right to live wherever they please.

I can't fault someone for wanting to live in a beautiful home with a big yard and places for their dogs and children to play.

I mean, who am I to fault them? Some of Pittsburgh's suburbs are extremely attractive even to me, a city boy. And like someone mentioned before, it's easy for us to attack such lifestyles. But a city isn't built on solely city dwellers. If every suburbanite in Pittsburgh all of a sudden moved to the city (which would be impossible) there would be absolute meltdown.

"Also, for the record. I am not anti-suburbs all together. Towns like Oakmont, and Mt. Lebenon are some of my favorites. I could see myself living in areas like this if I was older and had kids." I stated that above.

Evergrey pretty much summed it up.

As a Pennsylvania resident it is my right to stand up and protect the last of the real Misty Meadows and whispering pines southwest PA has left. I say this as a urbanite, and a environmentalist that loves to hike, mountain bike, and camp.

[Evergrey]

Have you been throught the Mon Valley recently? Braddock, Rankin, Duquesne, McKeesport have all be "saved" to death! The 21st century is passing them by. The brownfields will remain, the towns and cities will continue to rot, and population will continue to flee without new business & industry. Do you have any good ideas as to what industries may flourish without proper access? The last person out of the Mon Valley, please turn out the lights.

Actually, I just took a drive through every Mon Valley town from Hazelwood to Brownsville and back from California to the South Side last weekend. Is that enough Mon Valley for ya? Heck, I spent a half hour driving through the streets of Monesson. I know the Mon Valley.

Is it in Pittsburgh's best interests to have its neighborhoods destroyed so that maybe a few light industrial and warehouses pop up near Donora? I won't pretend to know what to do with the Mon Valley... it's really a very unique region... a string of small urban clusters whose only purpose for existence was heavy manufacturing... just far enough away from the City of Pittsburgh to be inconvenient. Even if this toll road boondoggle can take a few minutes off the trip from New Eagle, it is very hard to justify the merits of this $4.6 Billion boondoggle. At that cost, it would have to transform Mon Valley to Silicon Valley

We already have the 5th most freeway miles per capita in the nation.. how many more highways do we need to "save the region"? It's simply not possible to put an exit ramp in front of everybody's town... haven't we learned anything from the past 50 years?

The opportunity costs the state has passed up with this black hole of a money pit are staggering. There's also the huge amount of lost tax revenue for municipalities in the areas the highway blasts through. 177 parcels in Hazelwood are slated for destruction which would equate to about $500,000 in lost tax revenue for the city of Pittsburgh... forever.

Here's a good write-up from 2001 that goes through the many cons of the project...
http://www.gasp-pgh.org/hotline/fall01-2.html

"A truly dismal use of public funds"
http://www.pennfuture.org/files/event_camp/monfayettereportb_42402.pdf

a very fair 2004 article that talks about both sides of the highway
http://www.mcall.com/news/specials/all-5monfay2apr19,0,3713815.story



http://www.paturnpike.com/monfaysb/images/largemap2.jpg

http://www.taxpayer.net/road2ruin/images/maps/mon-lafayette.gif

[xyagentguy]

If you're a "real place"... you get no ire from me. It's the "no places" that are detrimental to the region. You may have a "God given right" to live out in the middle of nowhere, waste lots of resources on your long commute and stress the region's infrastructure... but local, state and federal governments should not subsidize (directly and indirectly) this destructive behavior to the detriment of the urban core and the countryside. If you want a "fake country" existence out in the middle of Murrysville... go ahead... but the government had better not blast a highway through my neighborhood so that you can get to your job downtown and take your taxable income back to bumf*ck.
I understand. I don't totally disagree with you, of course. But also remember one more thing, every American also has the right to the pursuit of happiness. It is written into the very fabric of our constitution. And if people are happy living in their suburbs like Murrysville with their big homes, no matter how negative or positive it is seen by people like us, well than so be it.

It's an integral part of American life and if they are happier living like that, then it would actually be in bad taste for me to tell them otherwise.

Instead, we need to come up with innovative ways to discourage "no place" living and re-assimilate. Or, we need a better way to integrate "no place" areas and make them "real places."

[Johnland]

We already have the 5th most freeway miles per capita in the nation.. how many more highways do we need to "save the region"? It's simply not possible to put an exit ramp in front of everybody's town... haven't we learned anything from the past 50 years?



Evergrey, you've summed my sentiments exactly. There's a terrific book - 'Save Our Land, Save Our Towns a Plan for Pennsylvania' by Thomas Hylton Copyright 1995 that also mirrors concern about sprawl.

The book lays out some gut wrenching statistics. Among them is the fact that since the 1950's, PA has lost an area of farmland larger than the combined size of Connecticut and Rhode Island. Much of it due to sprawl. If PA had population growth rates similar to Calif. or Florida, approximately 400% and 600%, respectively, one could somehow make a case for such a loss. However, PA's population growth rate over the past 50 years has been barely 20%. So basically, 'billions have been spent on new infrastructure to do little more than take the existing population and spread it around.' Meanwhile, almost every large city and town in the state has declining city populations. PA has ruined former wonderfully livable cities and ravaged the countryside while doing so. Even once remote, pristine regions, such as the Poconos, are now fair game for developers creating supply to satisfy demand coming from people escaping the urban chaos of NY and NJ.

The book also describes urban comparisons citing Cranberry Township, which has popped up in this discussion, and the traditional style towns of Princeton and Swarthmore. Bascially, Princeton's 1.4 sq miles and Swarthmore's 1.8 sq miles combined only equal 15% of Cranberry's total area. Yet, the two traditional towns have a combined popluation equal to Cranberry's 18,000. So basically, the point is that it is more than possible to accomodate 18,000 people in a town area of 3.2 sq mi. Cranberry is basically wasting or squandering 85% of it's land area.

[cdc]

Nonsense. I lived in Denver. Downtown was similar to what happend in Pittsburgh. They put in a 16th street mall through the downtown (designed by I.M. Pei) which featured retail, and all the works. The downtown took off, and now downtown is a full fledge place to be. We need to figure out a way to put the moron suburbinites back into the city.

You are selling Pittsburgh short. There is no need to put in a "16th
street mall" Downtown --- we've already got lot of retail in the city
in easy walking distance of residential areas (e.g. Shadyside,
Oakland, Sq. Hill, SSW, etc.).

Sure, the action isn't Downtown, but is that really a problem?
I don't think so.

[UrbaniDesDev]

I have often thought of a different approach to this ever looming MON VALLEY PROPOSAL. Keep the path proposed to I 376 to Monroeville. This is essential to linking to, and as a part of the Southern Beltway. The emphasis should be on the Southern Beltway, not the MVE. It will connect the Eastern burbs to the airport and relieve the traffic on I 376.

For the MVE, instead of cramming the expressway along the riverfront , the biggest asset to most of these communities, and through these old communities, have it become a grand urban boulevard running along Second Avenue/Irvine Street, following the proposed path of the expressway, and connect near Braddock. I would love to see this new boulevard actually connect to the decrepid Lincoln Highway (RT 30 in light blue) east of the Westinghouse Bridge. This would connect the communities instead of cutting them off. (Shown in pink). The key is to link communities with continuous boulevards like the city neighborhoods do. It would be tree lined with a pedestrian scale complete with street furniture and lighting. It would become a part of the fabric of these communities instead of blocking it.

Through Glenwood/Hazelwood, the westbound traffic would follow Second Avenue corridor. The Eastbound traffic would be south of the tracks, or Gloster Street. This would allow 2 lanes of traffic in each direction, 3 during rush and still have a parking lane. This could happen without having to increase the width of the existing street or removing any of the existing structures. The Boulevard would split, extending across the Mon, as well as to RT 30, with a new widened bridge, replacing the Glenwood Bridge, with walks connecting to the bike trails. It would connect to Carson Street (in dark green) as well as Waterfront Boulevard at Homestead.

Just South of Carson would be the entrance to the Expressway. This was an old expressway path proposed in the plan that Evergrey showed a few pages back. It is a deep canyon replacing Baldwin Road and has few inhabitants. It will give direct access to the Waterfront, the SouthSide Works, S Oakland as well as all of the old communities along the MON!

Carson Street would fork into W. 7th Avenue as well as Waterfront Boulevard and create a seamless boulevard along the south bank, through Homestead etc. The intersection where Carson, W 7th and the Glenwood Bridge meet is ridiculous and unnecessarily confusing.

There are many cities that have expressways that start at their beltways. This proposal would even have an advantage, where it would have an entrance just South of Carson and connect to major city arteries with the least disruption. Traffic would filter onto Carson, Second Street and Waterfront Boulevard. There would be congestion but not as extreme as where they have the MVE connect to the already overcrowded Parkway East. I just think this is a much more urban approach.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MonValleyExpresswayProposal4.jpg

[themaguffin]

I honestly think most here don’t get the reality of the situation.

Pittsburgh’s highways are dangerous. Ramps are not long enough. Interchanges are poor (refer back to dangerous) and all of this on the same number of lanes found in the most rural stretches of road in PA (or elsewhere). Nobody is suggesting multiple lanes like Atlanta, but as is – and this especially true of the parkway west, the short ramps force the right lane to be one long on ramp and the left lane to be the highway.

In effect, we have ONE LANE highways.

I want light rail in every possible direction. Hell, I want more than one route in each direction. But most of that is not going to happen and even if it did, it would only impact so much of the population. The reality is that an area populated like this needs to have adequate, safe, sound, highways. Period. The shitty subdivions and their cheesy ass names have nothing to do with this. The ugliness of Mcknight Rd or the other similar retail arteries, have nothing to do with this basic need. And it’s not just for commuter traffic either. We need drop the urban puritanical stance and get real.

[PittPenn 03]

You are selling Pittsburgh short. There is no need to put in a "16th
street mall" Downtown --- we've already got lot of retail in the city
in easy walking distance of residential areas (e.g. Shadyside,
Oakland, Sq. Hill, SSW, etc.).

Sure, the action isn't Downtown, but is that really a problem?
I don't think so.

Agreed. I have been to Denver a few times and I know the locals like to tout that 16th Street area, but I do not think it feels like a natural downtown on this street. It feels very sterile, like an actual mall or 'lifestyle' center to me. This and the area around the arena there - is that the cringe inducing named area "LoDo"? My god I hope as Pittsburgh redevelops that we do not come up with these oh so hip names for revitalized areas. Northshore went far enough in that regard. Anyway, I think it would be a travesty turn downtown this direction. I think residential should be the focus - doing what can be done to save the retail we have downtown and let the rest develop naturally to the needs of office workers, students and residents. A 16th Street Mall reminds me of what was it - Plan B?

[themaguffin]

is that the cringe inducing named area "LoDo"?

All of the SoHo ripoffs are cringe inducing to me.

Northshore went far enough in that regard.

Well, that's just a generic name to separate the "shore" area from the horrible you'll get shot Northside

Don't you feel safer knowing that you are the Northshore
and not the Northside

[JackStraw]

You are selling Pittsburgh short. There is no need to put in a "16th
street mall" Downtown --- we've already got lot of retail in the city
in easy walking distance of residential areas (e.g. Shadyside,
Oakland, Sq. Hill, SSW, etc.).

Sure, the action isn't Downtown, but is that really a problem?
I don't think so.

I am just trying to provide a example where the chicken came before the egg. Retail before downtown living. I don't want a cheesy pedestrian mall either. Like Pittpenn said, it is very sterile. I liked to walk on it for the hot suburban girls who thought it was cool.

I was trying to give an example where a city implemented a retail district and the residentail followed. Instead of visa-versa. I would love to see market square be a lot nicer then it is.

I also think the action should be downtown. Any sucessful city has its action downtown. I personally think instead of putting the hard rock and cheese cake in station square and the South Side works, they should have placed it near the convention center. There has been many times I walked into visitors for conferences that are walking through downtown and asking where the action is. Putting those touristy type restaurants would be better near the convention center.

[JackStraw]

I honestly think most here don’t get the reality of the situation.

Pittsburgh’s highways are dangerous. Ramps are not long enough. Interchanges are poor (refer back to dangerous) and all of this on the same number of lanes found in the most rural stretches of road in PA (or elsewhere). Nobody is suggesting multiple lanes like Atlanta, but as is – and this especially true of the parkway west, the short ramps force the right lane to be one long on ramp and the left lane to be the highway.

In effect, we have ONE LANE highways.

I want light rail in every possible direction. Hell, I want more than one route in each direction. But most of that is not going to happen and even if it did, it would only impact so much of the population. The reality is that an area populated like this needs to have adequate, safe, sound, highways. Period. The shitty subdivions and their cheesy ass names have nothing to do with this. The ugliness of Mcknight Rd or the other similar retail arteries, have nothing to do with this basic need. And it’s not just for commuter traffic either. We need drop the urban puritanical stance and get real.


I agree. Trying to enter onto 376 and making it through 2 lanes in 50 feet to go through the tunnel from 0-60 mph to catch up with traffic to not get hit is not safe.

We realize this needs adjusted. The conversation with urban sprawl, building MORE roads (not improving existing), and taking tax money to destroy the city fabric was what people were upset about.

[Evergrey]

I would love to see market square be a lot nicer then it is.



Tooluther is working on that ;)

Seriously, Market Square has seen marked improvement in the past year... and the completion of Marketsquare Place, Fifth & Market and 3 PNC Plaza over the next year will be quite the boon.

[Tombstoner]

The reality is that an area populated like this needs to have adequate, safe, sound, highways. Period. The shitty subdivions and their cheesy ass names have nothing to do with this. The ugliness of Mcknight Rd or the other similar retail arteries, have nothing to do with this basic need. And it’s not just for commuter traffic either. We need drop the urban puritanical stance and get real.

well said! :cheers:

[tooluther]

Tooluther is working on that ;)

Seriously, Market Square has seen marked improvement in the past year... and the completion of Marketsquare Place, Fifth & Market and 3 PNC Plaza over the next year will be quite the boon.

In exchange for your compliment, I will provide you hot off the press info. Moe's just completed their lease agreement to come into Market Square this summer. There is an additional national tenant in the works, but the ink isn't on the paper there.


That ladies and gentlemen is what we call "up-tenanting"

I was in San Diego last week and hung out in the "Gas Lamp District" many night (did I mention that already?), it is spectacular and provides a vision for what this whole Paris to Pittsburgh program is all about...especially Market Square.

[xyagentguy]

Moe's just completed their lease agreement to come into Market Square this summer. There is an additional national tenant in the works, but the ink isn't on the paper there.

Moes Southwest Grill??? :) :) :)

[JackStraw]

Screw Moes. I want a illegal Petes!

God damnit, now I am going to go on another rant. This time about how I haven't had a real breakfast burrito or green chile in about a year. Anybody know where a yinzer can get a good breakfast burrito or green chile around here?

[Evergrey]

Screw Moes. I want a illegal Petes!

God damnit, now I am going to go on another rant. This time about how I haven't had a real breakfast burrito or green chile in about a year. Anybody know where a yinzer can get a good breakfast burrito or green chile around here?

I just had a breakfast burrito in Market Square last week... at MixStirs Cafe. It was a nice snack, though I'm not sure it really meets what you're looking for.

I've had huevos rancheros at Taco Loco, though it opens up after breakfast at 11AM.
http://www.tacolocopgh.com/

Azul gets a lot of praise... though I've never been there. I'd love to try it sometime though... looks chic. I think PA Pride has been there. Doesn't look like they have breakfast burritos though.
http://www.azulbarycantina.com/

[Grego43]

Hey JackStraw, I've been to a taqueria on Broadway in Beechview, don't remember the name though, sorry. Authentic, and muy bueno.

[DBR96A]

I agree. Trying to enter onto 376 and making it through 2 lanes in 50 feet to go through the tunnel from 0-60 mph to catch up with traffic to not get hit is not safe.

We realize this needs adjusted. The conversation with urban sprawl, building MORE roads (not improving existing), and taking tax money to destroy the city fabric was what people were upset about.

They need to rip that fuckin' on-ramp out of the ground and erect a sign that says "NO REENTRY EASTBOUND FROM THIS EXIT." I started complaining about it when I was nine years old, telling my dad that it didn't make any sense to enter a highway right before an exit-only off-ramp.

As for Pittsburgh having the fifth-most highway miles per capita, get back to me when you find a list of cities ranked based on the number of highway LANE miles per capita. Watch Pittsburgh stumble dramatically down such a list.

[PA Pride]

I think residential should be the focus - doing what can be done to save the retail we have downtown and let the rest develop naturally to the needs of office workers, students and residents. A 16th Street Mall reminds me of what was it - Plan B?

Thank you Pittpenn!! I'm glad someone agrees with me. How many more Lazurus's and Lord & Taylor's have to be subsidized, built and go out of business before it's realized that there is STILL not a big enough downtown population to support retailers of that size.

Downtown is getting more and more people living there, but it's still only apprx. 6,000 people including the strip district.

[PA Pride]

I have often thought of a different approach to this ever looming MON VALLEY PROPOSAL. Keep the path proposed to I 376 to Monroeville. This is essential to linking to, and as a part of the Southern Beltway. The emphasis should be on the Southern Beltway, not the MVE. It will connect the Eastern burbs to the airport and relieve the traffic on I 376.

For the MVE, instead of cramming the expressway along the riverfront , the biggest asset to most of these communities, and through these old communities, have it become a grand urban boulevard running along Second Avenue/Irvine Street, following the proposed path of the expressway, and connect near Braddock. I would love to see this new boulevard actually connect to the decrepid Lincoln Highway (RT 30 in light blue) east of the Westinghouse Bridge. This would connect the communities instead of cutting them off. (Shown in pink). The key is to link communities with continuous boulevards like the city neighborhoods do. It would be tree lined with a pedestrian scale complete with street furniture and lighting. It would become a part of the fabric of these communities instead of blocking it.

Through Glenwood/Hazelwood, the westbound traffic would follow Second Avenue corridor. The Eastbound traffic would be south of the tracks, or Gloster Street. This would allow 2 lanes of traffic in each direction, 3 during rush and still have a parking lane. This could happen without having to increase the width of the existing street or removing any of the existing structures. The Boulevard would split, extending across the Mon, as well as to RT 30, with a new widened bridge, replacing the Glenwood Bridge, with walks connecting to the bike trails. It would connect to Carson Street (in dark green) as well as Waterfront Boulevard at Homestead.

Just South of Carson would be the entrance to the Expressway. This was an old expressway path proposed in the plan that Evergrey showed a few pages back. It is a deep canyon replacing Baldwin Road and has few inhabitants. It will give direct access to the Waterfront, the SouthSide Works, S Oakland as well as all of the old communities along the MON!

Carson Street would fork into W. 7th Avenue as well as Waterfront Boulevard and create a seamless boulevard along the south bank, through Homestead etc. The intersection where Carson, W 7th and the Glenwood Bridge meet is ridiculous and unnecessarily confusing.

There are many cities that have expressways that start at their beltways. This proposal would even have an advantage, where it would have an entrance just South of Carson and connect to major city arteries with the least disruption. Traffic would filter onto Carson, Second Street and Waterfront Boulevard. There would be congestion but not as extreme as where they have the MVE connect to the already overcrowded Parkway East. I just think this is a much more urban approach.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MonValleyExpresswayProposal4.jpg

I don't know much about urban planning or highways in general, but your plan seems to make a lot of sense. Nice work.

[PA Pride]

In exchange for your compliment, I will provide you hot off the press info. Moe's just completed their lease agreement to come into Market Square this summer. There is an additional national tenant in the works, but the ink isn't on the paper there.


That ladies and gentlemen is what we call "up-tenanting"

I was in San Diego last week and hung out in the "Gas Lamp District" many night (did I mention that already?), it is spectacular and provides a vision for what this whole Paris to Pittsburgh program is all about...especially Market Square.

What is Moe's?

[PA Pride]

They need to rip that fuckin' on-ramp out of the ground and erect a sign that says "NO REENTRY EASTBOUND FROM THIS EXIT." I started complaining about it when I was nine years old, telling my dad that it didn't make any sense to enter a highway right before an exit-only off-ramp.

As for Pittsburgh having the fifth-most highway miles per capita, get back to me when you find a list of cities ranked based on the number of highway LANE miles per capita. Watch Pittsburgh stumble dramatically down such a list.

I agree with you, but I think that the reality of the situation is that ideal highway designs are not compatable with Western PA topography.

[Evergrey]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08049/858309-52.stm

City becomes battleground over what makes good design

Monday, February 18, 2008
By Rich Lord, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Last week an intensifying struggle over how development is done in Pittsburgh went to the courts.

Next week, it may go to City Council.

The battlegrounds are a mammoth casino garage, a glass-clad arena and a glowing billboard -- examples of progress to Mayor Luke Ravenstahl and Urban Redevelopment Authority Executive Director Pat Ford, and of broken process to a growing chorus in the design community.

To Anne Swager, executive director of the Pittsburgh chapter of the American Institute of Architects, last week's appeals of the casino and arena plan approvals show "a sentiment that [people] haven't been heard." And news of a 1,200-square-foot electronic billboard coming to Downtown reminded her that the "planning process is designed to protect the public good, and when an exception is made to that process, it puts us at risk."

To Mr. Ford, the challenges reflect an obsession with technicalities that is holding back Pittsburgh.

"We've got attorneys driving the vision of the city of Pittsburgh, and we've got to take it back," he said Friday. "We should be focused on leadership, collaboration and process. We should not rely on 3 inches of rules to tell us how to be vibrant."

Last week the Riverlife Task Force challenged the city planning commission's decision to allow a 10-story garage behind the two-story casino that's going up on the North Shore. That appeal goes straight to the state Supreme Court.

Allegheny County Common Pleas Court gets the One Hill Community Benefits Coalition's challenge to the commission's approval of the plan for the new Penguins arena, which that group argues was made without proper notification to the public of changes in the parking scheme and without consideration of neighborhood benefits.

City Councilman William Peduto said that tomorrow he'll call for a council hearing on the LED billboard that was quietly approved in December as an addition to the rising Grant Street Transportation Center at Liberty Avenue and 11th Street.

The city zoning code's special rules for the Golden Triangle don't allow billboards except on sites where they existed before the code was passed. The thinking was that people on Mount Washington or in PNC Park should see one of urban America's great views, rather than a wall of logos and ads.

"The image of the Golden Triangle is an important icon for the region," said Tom Armstrong, a planning commission member from 1982 through 2005 and chairman for the last 15 of those years. The LED billboard "is totally out of scale with the kind of pedestrian environment we have Downtown."

Even if the sign fits under one of the code's exceptions, it would require approval by the Zoning Board of Adjustment, or the planning commission, and, potentially, council. Any Downtown project or alteration costing more than $50,000 -- and the billboard would cost many times that -- must be approved by the planning commission.

None of that happened, though, when the Pittsburgh Parking Authority asked for the OK for the sign on its new garage and Greyhound Lines station. Instead, zoning administrator Susan Tymoczko and Mr. Ford worked a deal with Lamar Advertising, which will operate the sign.

Lamar will give up six old vinyl signs on nearby sites, totaling 1,400 square feet, in return for the illuminated billboard that will flash a rotation of messages.

"Our thought process is one, we can remove billboards, which Pittsburgh has far too many, I would argue, and No. 2, put up a new billboard which I believe is more visually pleasing," Mr. Ravenstahl said.

Mr. Ford said he decided he could legally approve the billboard for three reasons. First, state law gives businesses the right to modernize. Second, city code "is silent" on whether one can trade old billboards that don't conform with new zoning rules for new ones. And third, the zoning administrator "is entitled to [approve] minor amendments to site plans" -- and a sign that he says will cost Lamar $7 million is, in his view, a minor change.

Mr. Ravenstahl said he is comfortable with the process that led to its approval.

"My understanding is that we are acting appropriately, and every approval we have made is a legal approval," he said. "I wouldn't be standing here saying that I support it if I didn't believe it was legal."

Mr. Ford cited as precedent a deal he made with Lamar when he was zoning administrator for Mayor Tom Murphy, in which Lamar removed 36 traditional placards in return for the OK to put up six LED signs.

But his boss at the time, former Planning Director Susan Golomb, said the Murphy-era deal was "not comparable" to the one Mr. Ford has worked out. None of those LED billboards went Downtown, where special rules and sensitivities apply.

A deal to eliminate some billboards in favor of others "might be all right, but you have to go through a process," Ms. Golomb said. "You can't just set yourself up that you can approve things without any public input."

Grant Street "represents our values, and our vision for the entire community," said Anne-Marie Lubenau, president of the Community Design Center of Pittsburgh. "Is that the first impression that we want to give people of our community -- commercial advertising?"

"I like signs," said Mr. Ford. "It tells us that we're vibrant, that we're lively, that we like business."

A smaller electronic billboard, plus a 197-foot-long LED message board, was proposed for the transportation center but rejected by city planners in 2004. The city's Design Review Committee wrote that the sign was "unacceptable" and "does not contribute positively to the urban landscape."

Mr. Peduto said he wants Mr. Ford, Mr. Ravenstahl, Ms. Tymoczko and other officials to "come before council to explain how this could happen. ... It is obvious that three different public processes were blatantly ignored in order to ram this through."

His interpretation of last week's events: "The public process has been eliminated in lieu of developers' wishes."

That sentiment is mirrored in the appeals of planning commission approvals.

The Riverlife Task Force argued that the commission ignored rules limiting the size of "accessory structures," allowing a design in which the casino is dwarfed by a garage that serves it.

One Hill and its allies wrote in their appeal that changes in the arena plan were made at the last minute, not allowing for informed public comment, and that commission member Todd Reidbord left a key meeting to attend a Pitt Panthers basketball game -- before returning to vote "yes."

One Hill's central concern, according to Michael Healey, one of the attorney's on the case, is "who controls the development decisions, and who benefits from them?" Citizens have a right to expect that government makes decisions based on "what benefits the health and safety of the residents," he said.

Ms. Lubenau pointed to SouthSide Works as an example of a project in which neighborhood groups, professionals, nonprofit organizations, the city and a developer worked together to plan something great. A master plan for the post-casino North Shore could have used the same model.

Mr. Ford said SouthSide Works was different from the casino, because lots of city money was involved, giving the city more leverage. Casino developer Don Barden isn't getting public money, yet agreed to limit smoking, include environmental features and put metal screening on the garage.

"People are just using the judicial process to question the outcome that they do not like," Mr. Ford said. "We happen to like it."

The development process is likely to change even more. The URA, which now reaches into the planning process more than ever, is considering "significant organizational changes proposed by Pat Ford to further his vision," according to an e-mail by its Deputy Director to Councilman Patrick Dowd, who wrote probing the authority's budget status.

Ms. Lubenau said she just wants to be sure development is handled evenhandedly, according to rules that are clear to all.

"The planning process is a legal process. There's a structure to that process that includes public participation," she said. "We should be concerned when that process is inconsistent."




Rich Lord can be reached at rlord@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1542.


...


Office Depot opens Downtown... Renaissance III in full swing

http://kdka.com/video/?id=38431@kdka.dayport.com

[themaguffin]

What is Moe's?


...a fast casual Mexican chain.

agree with you, but I think that the reality of the situation is that ideal highway designs are not compatable with Western PA topography.

It makes it more challenging yes, but the roads were bullt to begin with and I have seen some unique situations elsewhere, where creativity and actual work made it possible. There simply has been very, very little done to improve these '50's relics.

And now the come out with this ridiculous stacked piece of shit?

[Evergrey]

...a fast casual Mexican chain.


oh... I thought tooluther meant one of these:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Moes-tavern.jpg

:haha:

Pittsburgh has been exploding with fast casual Fresh Mex chains new to the market in the past few years... here's some info on Moe's Southwest Grill:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe%27s_Southwest_Grill
http://www.moes.com/

[xyagentguy]

I could be wrong, but I think the only Moes in the area is in Adam's Township. They have the most incredible white quaso dip. Make sure you get some if you go!! It's so good they sell it by the pint!!

WOAH, I just looked on their website and they have two 3 restaurants in the area, now. When did that happen??

[JackStraw]

I could be wrong, but I think the only Moes in the area is in Adam's Township. They have the most incredible white quaso dip. Make sure you get some if you go!! It's so good they sell it by the pint!!

WOAH, I just looked on their website and they have two 3 restaurants in the area, now. When did that happen??

They are in Robinson also. Behind the Sheets there. I never ate at a restaurant like that till I went to Denver. There they have Qdobas, Chipotle, and Moes on every block. Their pizza, subs, and other foods were nowhere close to the food here in the Burgh. However, their mexican was great. Even though, these burrito stores are not Mexican. They kind of get on my nerves after a while. I could do them only once in a while.

One restaurant that might be coming is B & D's Mongolian BBQ. They say in their website that they are accepting applications for the Pittsburgh market. I still cant google all the details. This restaurant was kick ass. Especially if you like spicy foods. We would always have vendors take us to lunch there.

http://www.gomongo.com/

[xyagentguy]

I'm just so happy Pittsburgh is now getting IHOPS and Sonic's. It's ashame neither one has a close location to the urban core, yet, though. I think the closest Sonic's is at Pittsburgh Mills but it's so tiny. lol. I have yet to see an IHOPS anywhere,

drat.

[Evergrey]

One restaurant that might be coming is B & D's Mongolian BBQ. They say in their website that they are accepting applications for the Pittsburgh market. I still cant google all the details. This restaurant was kick ass. Especially if you like spicy foods. We would always have vendors take us to lunch there.

http://www.gomongo.com/

aw hell yeah! BD's is good eatin'...

...

Ambitious Projects Aim to Revitalize Downtown
http://kdka.com/video/?id=38438@kdka.dayport.com

[Johnland]

Yesterday, I was walking around the North Side in the area just to the west of the 16th St. Bridge and the Heinz Lofts... which also happens to be underneath I-579 and walled off to the north by the I-279 / PA-28 clusterf*ck. Nothing... virtually nothing survived... and no semblance of a city has regenerated in the decades since in that suprisingly large waterfront urban district across the river from the Strip District and Downtown. Gravel-strewn parking lots, a few abandoned buildings, windowless low-slung corrugated plastic warehouses. There are a handful of gorgeous rowhouses (no longer in a row) that survive on an alleyway next to the cacophony of the superhighway. Due to the architecture and materials, I estimate these are some of the oldest residential structures left in Pittsburgh... dating to the 1830s-40s... yet they are sad and forgotten and are forever subjected to the withering assault of the superhighway. There used to be an entire neighborhood of these handsome brick rowhouses... what an asset that would be today if the neighborhood wasn't annhilated by superhighways. A dense urban historic waterfront neighborhood a short walk across a bridge to Downtown and the Strip District.



This is the kind of thing that I hate to hear about. To think that homes surviving from the 1830's are being treating so callously is just wrong. Historic architecture of that vintage is irreplacable. In Philadelphia, some creep tore down a row of 1830's mercantile buildings along Front and Chestnut last year. A valuable peice of the city's history gone forever.

I'm not saying there should be no progress, but there has to be a respect for the historic as well as the current.

I see Pittsburgh as having the same topography as Zurich, Switzerland. It's a dense, old city set among hills. They have not ushered in a web of freeways or torn down everything in the way of new development. They rely on an extensive system of street trolleys and regional trains. Zurich has also managed to become an extremely wealthy, prosperous and desirable city without a ring of expressways strangling it. It can be done.

[Evergrey]

This is the kind of thing that I hate to hear about. To think that homes survicing from the 1830's are being treating so callously is just wrong. Historic architecture of that vintage is irreplacable. In Philadelphia, some creep tore down a row of 1830's mercantile buildings along Front and Chestnut last year. A valuable peice of the city's history gone forever.

I'm not saying there should be no prgress, but there has to be a respect for the historic as well as the current.

I see Pittsburgh as having the same topography as Zurich, Switzerland. It's a dense, old city set among hills. They have not ushered in a web of freeways or torn down everything in the way of new development. They rely on an extensive system of street trolleys and regional trains. Zurich has also managed to become an extremely wealthy, prosperous and desirable city without a ring of expressways strangling it. It can be done.


you ought to see what we do to our 1790s houses!

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2007-12-23/1224rellis-a.jpg
Architect Ellis Schmidlapp, president of Landmarks Design Associates, did a brief historic structure report in 2003 on the John Woods house (rear) in Hazelwood. The house was built in 1792 and was a favorite meeting place for Stephen Foster and his friends.
Heidi Murrin/Tribune Review
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_544278.html

[Johnland]

you ought to see what we do to our 1790s houses!

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2007-12-23/1224rellis-a.jpg
Architect Ellis Schmidlapp, president of Landmarks Design Associates, did a brief historic structure report in 2003 on the John Woods house (rear) in Hazelwood. The house was built in 1792 and was a favorite meeting place for Stephen Foster and his friends.
Heidi Murrin/Tribune Review
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_544278.html

That's phenomenal. That house spans four calendar centuries.

[PA Pride]

This is the kind of thing that I hate to hear about. To think that homes surviving from the 1830's are being treating so callously is just wrong. Historic architecture of that vintage is irreplacable. In Philadelphia, some creep tore down a row of 1830's mercantile buildings along Front and Chestnut last year. A valuable peice of the city's history gone forever.

I'm not saying there should be no progress, but there has to be a respect for the historic as well as the current.

I see Pittsburgh as having the same topography as Zurich, Switzerland. It's a dense, old city set among hills. They have not ushered in a web of freeways or torn down everything in the way of new development. They rely on an extensive system of street trolleys and regional trains. Zurich has also managed to become an extremely wealthy, prosperous and desirable city without a ring of expressways strangling it. It can be done.

Don't try too hard to compare US cities to European cities. You will only end up crying.

[PA Pride]

By the way, Is it considered good to have chain suburban restaurants in downtown Pittsburgh, like Moe's? That's an honest question. I don't know if that's considered good or bad.

[PA Pride]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08049/858309-52.stm


Office Depot opens Downtown... Renaissance III in full swing

http://kdka.com/video/?id=38431@kdka.dayport.com

They said in that video Staples is scouting locations downtown in addition to the new Office Depot...

[JackStraw]

By the way, Is it considered good to have chain suburban restaurants in downtown Pittsburgh, like Moe's? That's an honest question. I don't know if that's considered good or bad.

I thought about this before. I don't think it is actually bad. I think it is more important preserving our great architecture downtown. It is more important to have a vibrant downtown, chains or locally individually owned stores. Like I said before, it would be better in my opinion to have the hard rock and cheescake downtown near the convention center.

Where I would like to see places the chains not go, is our city neighborhoods, especially the Strip District, South side, Bloomfield, Squirrel hill, etc.

There are also chains like B & Ds and Ben and Jerry's that only expand into cool areas like the downtowns of cities and cool small towns. I don't think Ben and Jerry's puts any of their shops in the burbs. I always saw them in places like State college, Aspen, Boulder, Squirrel Hill, but not Moronville.

[JackStraw]

Here is the big question. Why did it take this whole time for staples and the office depot to finally figure out that a good market for their office supplies would be in a place with skyscrapers full of offices?

[cdc]

I also think the action should be downtown. Any sucessful city has its action downtown. I personally think instead of putting the hard rock and cheese cake in station square and the South Side works, they should have placed it near the convention center. There has been many times I walked into visitors for conferences that are walking through downtown and asking where the action is. Putting those touristy type restaurants would be better near the convention center.


The topology of Downtown PGH is unique and different enough
(e.g. compared to Denver) that it isn't going to work the same way.

Downtown is an island. Even though it is centrally located, it is
also isolated from our major residential areas by rivers, decaying
bridges, undersized tunnels, and the Hill. The large majority of
people who spend time downtown are people who work there... these are
the people that Downtown development should be targeted and catered to
as they will be the easiest to reach.

If you are not in that group of Downtown workers, I suspect you will
not be going Downtown very often (unless you are just passing through
on the parkway, and that doesn't really count). For example, there is
a large group of people (myself included) who work/live in/near
Oakland and almost never go Downtown.


I've never stepped foot in the Convention Center. I'd much rather see
restaurants be placed where everyday Pittsburghers frequent, rather
than in places where only transient tourists go. I've always thought
the tourism industry was over-hyped (government types seem to love it,
for some reason).

[cdc]

Hey exurbanites... maybe you should've thought about your soul-crushing, life-imperiling, resource-exhausting, time-wasting commute before you moved out to your isolated automobile-dependent plot of "American dystopian dream" in Murrysville in the first place.


You know, there must be something positive about being an exurbanite
or people wouldn't do it.

So what is missing from the "urban fabric" of Pittsburgh that would
motivate people to put up with a daily "soul-crushing,
life-imperiling, resource-exhausting, time-wasting commute"?

[PA Pride]

You know, there must be something positive about being an exurbanite
or people wouldn't do it.

So what is missing from the "urban fabric" of Pittsburgh that would
motivate people to put up with a daily "soul-crushing,
life-imperiling, resource-exhausting, time-wasting commute"?

As a suburban real estate agent I can easily answer that question. Brand new construction (Maronda; Ryan; Heartland Home builders), large square foot homes on large grassy lots.

I hate the suburbs and I only work and live out here in Hopewell Twp (Beaver County) because this is where i'm from and I haven't saved enough money to move to the city yet, but I see all the people coming from cities and buying in subdivisions. Usually for family reasons; Once people have kids they get very scared and protective and rush to buy a suburban home to keep their kids away from the percieved dangers of the city. People hear all the horrors of robberies and assaults and murders in the city of Pittsburgh every night on the news and most people are not gonna take the time and the effort to decide which city neighborhoods and streets are safe and which ones aren't. They simply move to a safe suburban subdivision.

I can definitely see why people make the decisions they do for economic and percieved safety reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that most vinyl subdivisions are soulless city killers.

[xyagentguy]

I can definitely see why people make the decisions they do for economic and percieved safety reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that most vinyl subdivisions are soulless city killers.
There are other reasons, too. Some people find it more peaceful. I know my cousins don't have kids, they own several huge dogs, and they only own homes with large lots where their dogs can roam and play. Some people want swimming pools (something that not a ton of people can have in the urban center of Pittsburgh or it's plethora of city neighborhoods). Some people want the excitement and satisfaction of building their own homes based upon their own design. As silly as even this sounds, but I know a man who enjoys his 40 minute commute everyday, it's "his" time to think and be alone with himself (as he has a wife and 4 young children at home). In the case of Pittsburgh, many people are escaping the ridiculous taxes in the city. Some people find themselves wanting to be close to the rest of their family that has moved to the suburb (even if they'd prefer living in the city themselves). Many families now need 2 or 3 car garages, something you may have a hard time finding in the core neighborhoods. Some people loathe street parking (as I do) and would rather have a driveway, etc.

I'm not saying you can't find all of those things in the urban core or city neighborhoods, but sometimes the suburbs are just a better match. I will never live in the suburbs, but like I've said, I don't think people are crazy for wanting to. I see many attractive features of suburbs.

Some people don't move just for the hell of it, they move for fiscal and financial reasons, too.

[PA Pride]

There are other reasons, too. Some people find it more peaceful. I know my cousins don't have kids, they own several huge dogs, and they only own homes with large lots where their dogs can roam and play. Some people want swimming pools (something that not a ton of people can have in the urban center of Pittsburgh or it's plethora of city neighborhoods). Some people want the excitement and satisfaction of building their own homes based upon their own design. As silly as even this sounds, but I know a man who enjoys his 40 minute commute everyday, it's "his" time to think and be alone with himself (as he has a wife and 4 young children at home). In the case of Pittsburgh, many people are escaping the ridiculous taxes in the city. Some people find themselves wanting to be close to the rest of their family that has moved to the suburb (even if they'd prefer living in the city themselves). Many families now need 2 or 3 car garages, something you may have a hard time finding in the core neighborhoods. Some people loathe street parking (as I do) and would rather have a driveway, etc.

I'm not saying you can't find all of those things in the urban core or city neighborhoods, but sometimes the suburbs are just a better match. I will never live in the suburbs, but like I've said, I don't think people are crazy for wanting to. I see many attractive features of suburbs.

Some people don't move just for the hell of it, they move for fiscal and financial reasons, too.


That's the spirit! Wanna buy a house?!?

[Evergrey]

You know, there must be something positive about being an exurbanite
or people wouldn't do it.

So what is missing from the "urban fabric" of Pittsburgh that would
motivate people to put up with a daily "soul-crushing,
life-imperiling, resource-exhausting, time-wasting commute"?

school districts are a major factor... and of course... this isn't a "Pittsburgh exceptionalism"... but is the case in just about every comparable major urban core in the Northeast/Midwest ... the mass exodus of residents and businesses to the suburbs in the post-war era depressed the revenue streams for urban school districts which were also faced with criminal behavior and poor academic acheivement due to major socio-economic demograpic shifts

[Evergrey]

The topology of Downtown PGH is unique and different enough
(e.g. compared to Denver) that it isn't going to work the same way.

Downtown is an island. Even though it is centrally located, it is
also isolated from our major residential areas by rivers, decaying
bridges, undersized tunnels, and the Hill. The large majority of
people who spend time downtown are people who work there... these are
the people that Downtown development should be targeted and catered to
as they will be the easiest to reach.

If you are not in that group of Downtown workers, I suspect you will
not be going Downtown very often (unless you are just passing through
on the parkway, and that doesn't really count). For example, there is
a large group of people (myself included) who work/live in/near
Oakland and almost never go Downtown.


I've never stepped foot in the Convention Center. I'd much rather see
restaurants be placed where everyday Pittsburghers frequent, rather
than in places where only transient tourists go. I've always thought
the tourism industry was over-hyped (government types seem to love it,
for some reason).

You are exactly right about Downtown being an "island"... which makes for a huge challenge. This is something I've thought about a lot. It's a major disadvantage that we don't have a vital, functioning neighborhood adjacent to Downtown. The Crosstown Blvd creates a rather harsh boundary to the east. Some opportunities to "spread" Downtown and to connect it to the rest of the city would be North Shore development (which hasn't exactly pleased me yet), Forest City's proposed high-density residential at Station Square, filling in that 5 block dead gap between the Strip District marketplace/nightlife and the Convention Center, an Uptown/Lower Hill revival led by the new arena and associated development and Duquesne U's growth.

[PA Pride]

school districts are a major factor... and of course... this isn't a "Pittsburgh exceptionalism"... but is the case in just about every comparable major urban core in the Northeast/Midwest ... the mass exodus of residents and businesses to the suburbs in the post-war era depressed the revenue streams for urban school districts which were also faced with criminal behavior and poor academic acheivement due to major socio-economic demograpic shifts

Correct!

[PA Pride]

Some opportunities to "spread" Downtown and to connect it to the rest of the city would be North Shore development (which hasn't exactly pleased me yet), Forest City's proposed high-density residential at Station Square, filling in that 5 block dead gap between the Strip District marketplace/nightlife and the Convention Center, an Uptown/Lower Hill revival led by the new arena and associated development and Duquesne U's growth.

Any of those areas would be a huge boost to downtowns vibrancy I think. Hopefully at least a couple of those areas will develop favorably to contribute to a more vital urban core in the near future.

[Evergrey]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/business/s_553060.html

Millions could go to revamp landmark Union Trust Building

By Ron DaParma
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Tuesday, February 19, 2008


An investment group that paid $24.1 million to buy the ornate Union Trust Building plans to spend "several million dollars" more to bring the landmark structure back to life.
The group, led by executives of the Mika Realty Group in Los Angeles, promises to refurbish the nearly empty, block-long structure at 501 Grant St., Downtown, and restock its 595,000-plus square feet of rentable space with new office and retail tenants.

"We really want to bring something wonderful to the city. This is a once-in-a-lifetime location. The building is irreplaceable, so we want to get it right," said Rick Barreca, CEO of Mika Realty.

"I'd like to see a retail bank come into the ground floor, and I'd like to see a nice restaurant," said Barreca. "We want to have a mix that everybody in the building will be able to take advantage of, and that people in the surrounding area will be happy to come to."

Hopes are that Larrimor's, the upscale clothing retailer that occupies a prominent corner at Grant Street and Fifth Avenue, will continue its long relationship with the building, he said.
Barreca is one of the investors in the group headed Michael Kamen, founder of privately held Mika, and a business associate, Gerson Fox of Los Angeles.

They've hired the Pittsburgh-area architectural firm of Burt Hill Kosar Rittelmann Associates to design the upgrade.

Plans are to clean the building's facade and install new exterior lighting, signage and new windows on the ground level retail area that rings the building, topping them with decorative glass awnings. The building would get its first on-site parking with 60 new spaces planned on one of its two sub-basement levels accessible from William Penn Place.

Planned lobby improvements include a new security desk, benches and a new lighting package to brighten space underneath the colorful rotunda. Lighting will highlight ceiling mosaic tiles and stained glass above several building entry points.

"We're working with a historic consultant on the exterior to be careful not to disturb any of the historic features," Kosar said.

"We're also looking at adding new artwork and possibly some displays that could be changed seasonally, Barreca said.

The Pittsburgh History & Landmarks Foundation is happy with Mika's plans for the building, said Arthur P. Ziegler Jr., president of the South Side preservationist organization. The foundation has offered to work with the developers to help them secure historic tax credits for some of the renovation work, if the group decides to pursue them, he said.

Designed in Flemish Gothic style by noted Pittsburgh architect F.J. Osterling and built in 1916 for industrialist Henry Clay Frick, the building opened in 1917 as the Union Arcade, an upscale, indoor mall with 238 shops and more than 700 office tenants.

In 1922, it came to be owned by Union Trust Co., and after a 1946 merger, by Mellon National Bank and Trust Co., predecessor to Mellon Financial Corp., now Bank of New York Mellon.

Mellon decided to vacate its substantial presence in the building in May 2006 and DeBartolo Property Group LLC, the owner since 1984, stopped aggressive efforts to keep other tenants, leaving it in its present state.

It eventually defaulted on its mortgage, and ownership passed to Philadelphia-based insurance firm Cigna Corp., holder of the loan.

Chances to fill the building's office space have likely improved thanks to a recent tightening of the Downtown office market. And interest in both the office and retail space has been high, said Jeffrey Ackerman, a commercial real estate broker with CB Richard Ellis/Pittsburgh.

Ackerman represented Cigna in a nationwide marketing effort to find a buyer for the building and brokered the deal with the purchasing group.




Ron DaParma can be reached at rdaparma@tribweb.com or 412-320-7907.



http://www.pittsburghlive.com/images/video/2008_pdfs/GX-Utrust-ch-02-19.pdf

[UrbaniDesDev]

This is the kind of thing that I hate to hear about. To think that homes surviving from the 1830's are being treating so callously is just wrong. Historic architecture of that vintage is irreplacable. In Philadelphia, some creep tore down a row of 1830's mercantile buildings along Front and Chestnut last year. A valuable peice of the city's history gone forever.

I'm not saying there should be no progress, but there has to be a respect for the historic as well as the current.

I see Pittsburgh as having the same topography as Zurich, Switzerland. It's a dense, old city set among hills. They have not ushered in a web of freeways or torn down everything in the way of new development. They rely on an extensive system of street trolleys and regional trains. Zurich has also managed to become an extremely wealthy, prosperous and desirable city without a ring of expressways strangling it. It can be done.

I know this area well on the North Side. It is like walking through an area in old Berlin after the bombings and a small section was left in tact. Despite it's odd location, I always hope someone preserves those buildings and integrates them into a larger riverfont project. There are few sections of the city that have the potential that this little slice of riverfront has. Even with the massive railroad bridge (name?) it has a very uniquely PITTSBURGH feel. Im hoping the Heinz Lofts spur an interest in that area. I have studied this area. A friend of mine actually lived in one of those old houses years ago and I was always amazed at the astonishing view.

Johnland, I love your comparison to old Europe. I lived there and understand and appreciate the similarities also. I frankly cringe when I hear all these national chain restaurants moving in. I do understand that that is the reality we live in but...

Oddly enough, Tooluther, I also was in the Gaslight District, 3 weeks ago. It's how I picture The Cultural District in the coming years. A mix of historic buildings but mixed with new highrise residential and hotels. I did find it a little unauthentic. Almost like there was too much money poured into it. I guess I like a little grit with my beer. LOL. It seemed almost like a movie set. I hated that convention center blocking it from the waterfront.

[UrbaniDesDev]

You know, there must be something positive about being an exurbanite
or people wouldn't do it.

So what is missing from the "urban fabric" of Pittsburgh that would
motivate people to put up with a daily "soul-crushing,
life-imperiling, resource-exhausting, time-wasting commute"?


This is why residential development is geared towards young singles and empty nesters. It would be difficult, but not impossible, to raise a family there.

[UrbaniDesDev]

Tooluther
I've done a study of Market Square, its a hobby of mine redesigning the city.

Reconfigure the Square to become sort of a circle in the square. Yellow hatching showing street parking.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquarePage2.jpg

The corners of the square would be for restaurant seating. The only division between street and park would be bollards leaving the entire space all one level to accomodate events when streets are closed to traffic. A large center piece fountain as the focal point that can be used as a stage when turned off.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquare-1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquaretables.jpg http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquareTables2.jpg

Narrow McMaster Way would become a pedestrian walk.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquare5.jpg

Elevation
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquareElevation2.jpg

Forbes reconfigured to allow for 2 way traffic with street parking all day, no rush hour restrictions. I always thought it was silly that Forbes was the eastbound artery except downtown. I understand this was PATs doing.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquare2.jpg

Extend Forbes to Liberty at Gateway Center after the removal of the existing T entrance once the new station opens.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquareatGateway-1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquare3.jpg

Forbes widened between Markets Square and Wood adding one more lane for parking to the south.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquarePage3.jpg

Forbes widened at east end at Smithfield preserving the historic buildings on the Wood Street end. Forbes is a bit disjointed, particularly at Smithfield. This would better align the street and make it more consistant.
Forbes is moving eastbound through the Hill into Oakland.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MarketSquarePage4.jpg

[UrbaniDesDev]

Thanks Evergrey
a little more detailed
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MonValleySouthShoreDetails-1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MonValleyExpresswayProposal4.jpg

[UrbaniDesDev]

another project on my mind...
I started this thread to share and discuss projects happening in the city but also as an outlet to share projects and thoughts on peoples minds. Indulge me, as I like to share projects I have on my mind...

The parking problems of Pittsburgh could be solved with a massive parking garage tucked behind the courthouses in that wasteland along Crosstown Boulevard. (hatched in blue)
It would serve the Steel Plaza and First Side T stations. Accessible to the new arena, the courts and shopping.

Entrances at Forbes Avenue @ Diamond Street and Second Avenue @ B Street and at the ends of Third and Fourth Avenues.

This is where the prison should have gone, not along the river, oh well.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/CourtHouseSquare-1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/BoulevardoftheAllies.jpg

Possibly direct access to Boulevard of the Allies and Crosstown Boulevard/I 579?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/BoulevardoftheAllies3.jpg

The peachy building in the foreground, police parking, removed and integrated
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/ThirdAvenue6.jpg

Entrance at Third Avenue
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/ThirdAvenue2.jpg

Entance at Fourth Avenue.
A park in the corner court of this building on the right. I believe it was the morgue would make a great parklet with cafe seating.
Shown as the little square hatched in green above.
I love this building!
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/FourthAvenue2-1.jpg

a pedestrian bridge from roof of structure to Duquesne Campus?
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/BoulevardoftheAllies2.jpg

[Grego43]

Thanks Evergrey
a little more detailed
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MonValleySouthShoreDetails-1.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/MonValleyExpresswayProposal4.jpg

I like this revision very much, btw. Though I've advocated for the MFE many times, I'm no latter-day Robert Moses looking to plow through vibrant neighborhoods to build ugly uban expressways. I like the connectivity to the Southern Beltway & Parkway the revision allows while opening up thousands of acres of brownfields to development. The Mon Valley doesn't necessarily need direct access to downtown, but to the highway network and PIT.

[JackStraw]

The topology of Downtown PGH is unique and different enough
(e.g. compared to Denver) that it isn't going to work the same way.

I've never stepped foot in the Convention Center. I'd much rather see
restaurants be placed where everyday Pittsburghers frequent, rather
than in places where only transient tourists go. I've always thought
the tourism industry was over-hyped (government types seem to love it,
for some reason).

You are completely right with decribing Pittsburgh as an Island. I find it much different then the other two cities I lived in being philly and Denver. They both had Old City and Lodo which use to be the first sections of the city then the downtowns built out as (east in both cities) as they grew. Resulting in a old section then the newer highrise section further east in downtown. In Pittsburgh old is blended with new in our downtown as their is no room to just keep extending it.

As I am describing the restaurants. I was suggesting the touristy things be near the convention center. As the convention center holds large conventions filling up our downtown hotels all parts of the year. We should cater to these visitors of conventions and people staying downtown for business.

[JackStraw]

There are other reasons, too. Some people find it more peaceful. I know my cousins don't have kids, they own several huge dogs, and they only own homes with large lots where their dogs can roam and play. Some people want swimming pools (something that not a ton of people can have in the urban center of Pittsburgh or it's plethora of city neighborhoods). Some people want the excitement and satisfaction of building their own homes based upon their own design. As silly as even this sounds, but I know a man who enjoys his 40 minute commute everyday, it's "his" time to think and be alone with himself (as he has a wife and 4 young children at home). In the case of Pittsburgh, many people are escaping the ridiculous taxes in the city. Some people find themselves wanting to be close to the rest of their family that has moved to the suburb (even if they'd prefer living in the city themselves). Many families now need 2 or 3 car garages, something you may have a hard time finding in the core neighborhoods. Some people loathe street parking (as I do) and would rather have a driveway, etc.

I'm not saying you can't find all of those things in the urban core or city neighborhoods, but sometimes the suburbs are just a better match. I will never live in the suburbs, but like I've said, I don't think people are crazy for wanting to. I see many attractive features of suburbs.

Some people don't move just for the hell of it, they move for fiscal and financial reasons, too.

Some people find the positives of heroin also, and ignore its destructive, selfish, hazardous effects it's addiction brings also.

People like my parents like their home in these urban sprawl neighborhoods for one reason. They can shut the garage door opener when they come home after work and not have to deal with society. They like the fake feeling of living in the country, but don't want to know their neighbors, walk their neighborhood, pay taxes to build children playgrounds or public pools, rather pay more in gas and less in taxes, and much more. Having a reason for three cars is just American greed. If I have kids they better like riding a bus or light rail, I am not giving them their own car. I also know people who "like their time to their selves in the car." All I can say to them is ever heard of walking in the park or a bike ride. It is more enjoyable and healthier.

[Evergrey]

beautifully stated, JackStraw

...

fascinating ideas, UrbaniDesDev (will get around to dissecting them later)

...

Here's an article about small grocery store development in Pittsburgh... especially in the core... grocery stores are a key component to the amenities of urban living

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2008/02/18/story2.html?b=1203310800^1591416

Friday, February 15, 2008

Grocery stores slim downSmaller markets see resurgence around area

Pittsburgh Business Times - by Tim Schooley

http://cll.bizjournals.com/story_image/110471-400-0.jpg

Robin Fernandez is preparing for the retail challenge of how to be all things to all shoppers at his Rosebud Fine Food Market and Deli, which is expected to open as a Downtown version of a grocery store in March.

"We're going to try to carry all those items that people need when they're living Downtown," Fernandez said.

While his 3,000-square-foot store is in the spotlight as Downtown's first grocery store in years, he is far from alone in pursuing smaller markets. Rosebud is just one of at least three entrepreneurial ventures planning to open small markets in the city, and it joins a spate of small markets springing up around the country.

This week, Chicago-based McCaffery Interests revealed it has reached a deal with grocery veteran Robert Stone, who will open a 22,000-square-foot organic market called Right by Nature at its Cork Factory residential development in the Strip District. The store's lead investor is William Perry, an executive with the local Morgan Stanley office.

In Oakland, Ron Levick is preparing to open the 4,750-square-foot Market on Forbes, to be operated under the flag of the Independent Grocers Alliance on the second floor of his Forbes Avenue apartment building.

Nationally, the grocery industry is following herd on British import Tesco, which has introduced about 30 small-format Fresh & Easy stores in the western United States that some observers say will revolutionize the industry. The Fresh & Easy stores are said to offer Whole Foods quality at Wal-Mart prices, with totally automated checkouts, fruits and vegetables that are prepackaged and a strong emphasis on prepared foods in a limited assortment merchandising model.

"Tesco has created and renewed interest in smaller stores," said Neil Stern, a senior analyst who follows the industry for Chicago-based MacMillan Doolittle. "Everybody else is either reacting on their own or at least paying very close attention."

Giant Eagle has monitored Tesco and rolled out its own 15,000-square-foot Giant Eagle Express store in Harmar Township and has others planned, including one on the North Side. Perhaps the most eyebrow-raising example of the small-store trend comes from retail goliath Wal-Mart, which will test a 20,000-square-foot neighborhood market it's calling "Marketside" in Arizona, according to news reports.

business model
How the budding trend of small-format grocery stores will play out remains to be seen, Stern said.

"The economics of running a profitable small store are still unknown," he said.

Such stores typically fall under two camps. The first are low-cost, high-value operations that limit their selection to achieve the kind of high-volume sales under which they can maintain lower prices, a strategy followed and customized by such different retailers as Trader Joe's, ALDI and Save-a-Lot. The second are high-service small stores that seek to offer the best of everything, such as Giant Eagle Express.

All three of the planned markets in Pittsburgh will serve the specific needs of nearby residents, following a blended model of offering a limited selection of specialty products and a high level of customer service.

At the new Rosebud, Fernandez expects to expand upon the kind of business he's operated at his Rosebud Deli, which was in business for 12 years Downtown. Fernandez has built an extensive list of products he'll offer at Rosebud: a mix of locally grown organic produce, eggs, salads, soups, sandwiches and a host of other high-quality prepared foods. Beyond that, he said service will be critical, and include catering and delivery as well as full-range menu planning and the option of ordering over the Internet.

"There's a whole other element to the store that we're looking to do that will help us with our bottom line," Fernandez said. "There are different revenue streams for this store that we've created."

Katie Pliscott, leasing director for McCaffery, expects Right by Nature to thrive as an organic market by supplying produce and fresh meats directly from farmers and ranchers, cutting out the middleman to offer better prices. Dry goods will come from the largest natural goods distributors to ensure both quality and lower prices.

"People prefer to be shopping in a place they know they can feel comfortable and a part of their neighborhood and that isn't overwhelming," Pliscott said.

For his part, Levick plans for his store to focus strictly on food, serving the 60 residents of his building and a neighborhood full of college students who have virtually no other place they can shop for food.

"I was looking to do something with the space," Levick said of the building, which previously was occupied by nightclubs. "I was looking for the best possible use. Oakland has needed a grocery store since the Giant Eagle closed 10 years ago."

He hopes to open before the start of the new semester next fall.

Tradition meets trend
To be sure, Pittsburgh still has its share of small markets that survive as family-run businesses throughout the region, whether it's the many specialty food stores in the Strip District, Italian markets in Bloomfield or small corner markets throughout the region's mill towns.

Stern said small, entrepreneurial markets have the chance to redefine what their grocery customer is shopping for. But, he said, opening smaller shops often requires specialization rather than mimicking what's offered at large, suburban stores. He questioned whether the new look at small markets by major chains is a meaningful trend, given how many small stores it will take for major retail chains such as Wal-Mart to reach the kind of sales generated by a single big box.

"The question is: Is this a major countertrend, or is this an in-fill strategy that's a niche? Tesco is obviously betting that it's a major strategy," Stern said of the company's plan to roll out 500 location in the next few years. "Right now, I'd say we're not sure."

tschooley@bizjournals.com | (412) 208-3826

[Tombstoner]

:previous: interesting article. Does anyone know where on Forbes this new grocery store is going to be? IGAs aren't known for their "boutique" quality, so that's a little worrisome, especially if you're setting out to cater to college students. I mean, how many varieties of ramen do you need? ;) (no offense intended to college student forumers -- I ate instant mashed potatoes and reconstituted "brown gravy" about 5 days a week for 3 years). 4700 square feet seems like a respectable amount of room, so I'd think they could have a decent produce section.

[xyagentguy]

Some people find the positives of heroin also, and ignore its destructive, selfish, hazardous effects it's addiction brings also.
Well until moving out to the suburbs becomes a criminal offense or a direct contributor to severe health problems, that's a bad analogy. ;)

People like my parents like their home in these urban sprawl neighborhoods for one reason. They can shut the garage door opener when they come home after work and not have to deal with society. They like the fake feeling of living in the country, but don't want to know their neighbors, walk their neighborhood, pay taxes to build children playgrounds or public pools, rather pay more in gas and less in taxes, and much more. Having a reason for three cars is just American greed. If I have kids they better like riding a bus or light rail, I am not giving them their own car. I also know people who "like their time to their selves in the car." All I can say to them is ever heard of walking in the park or a bike ride. It is more enjoyable and healthier.
You're right. But not everyone is your parents. There are plenty of examples of people who live in the suburbs who are assets to society, friendly, and spend most of their free time in the urban core. And maybe walking in the park or riding a bike would be more enjoyable to YOU, but not everyone is you. Healthier? Well, I can't argue much with that, but I also can't force people to want to be healthy anymore than I can force people to stay in the city.

Until urban sprawl becomes illegal or some sort of tax or reprimands are made to punish those who sprawl and reward those who stay urban, then I won't judge people who find more happiness in the suburbs than they do in the city. Who am I to force someone to live someplace they don't want to? This is America, after all, until further notice.

[JackStraw]

^yes it is America. However, I am a socialist hippie liberal nazi!

In all seriousness. I said before that towns like Oakmont and others are amongst my favorites. I am really speaking of urban sprawl subdivisions. After growing up in one of these, I saw first hand that it is mostley people living in a anti-social behavoir. They want "Their space", and nothing to do with society. Could care less for supporting public librarys, play grounds, public pools. Nothing is public in their opinion, it is just selfish behavior. I would love to see laws to finally stop turning PA into all cheap development. It has been enough.

After living in Colorado, that is what I miss the most. I love the cities in PA. I hate driving and not be able to see any of God's country here. I would take country drives around the Amish country in SE PA. It is turning from rural farms to subdivison after another. (That area is real bad). I just wish PA could support stronger growth limits. Instead we whore ouselves out for this developement thinking it brings in economical progress.

That is all I am going to say on this subject now. I feel we are infringing on the Pittsburgh development topic.

[xyagentguy]

^yes it is America. However, I am a hippie liberal nazi!
Hah, I'm only playing devil's advocate anyway. I am as city-boy as they possibly come. Sadly, I am leaving Pittsburgh in July to venture to a different city (but I will be living downtown in that city, too!).

[tooluther]

UrbaniDesDev, I can't give you any details but a major redevelopment study for Market Square is underway. It may not look like yours but the vision and scale are def. there...more to come next month!

[PA Pride]

Until urban sprawl becomes illegal or some sort of tax or reprimands are made to punish those who sprawl and reward those who stay urban, then I won't judge people who find more happiness in the suburbs than they do in the city. Who am I to force someone to live someplace they don't want to? This is America, after all, until further notice.

It should be illegal. The US government is one of the only ones in the world who lets land be consumed recklessly for 50+ years. Most places like Asia, Europe, South America have laws against that.

That's the whole point.

[JackStraw]

It should be illegal. The US government is one of the only ones in the world who lets land be consumed recklessly for 50+ years. Most places like Asia, Europe, South America have laws against that.

That's the whole point.

A lot of socialist countries do, such as Canada (learned that from this forum). I know that sprawl effects many European countries also.

It is the American idea. Small government and individual freedoms. These small townships control their zoning and allow Maronda and Ryan to build like hell in their townships. Like I said, I am a socialist, liberal, hippie nazi. Bring in the state even federal government and start putting restrictions in.

I was hoping that the federal government could start declaring the Amish country, and the Poconos as federal land and be controlled under federal laws like a lot of the west where development is not allowed. However we are a commonwealth, and love to see cheap housing being built there because it sparks growth!

Ok, that is all I am going to say now. I hope.

[hyperion1110]

It should be illegal. The US government is one of the only ones in the world who lets land be consumed recklessly for 50+ years. Most places like Asia, Europe, South America have laws against that.

That's the whole point.

I like the solution for London. As I understand it, there is a ring of green around the city where people are not allowed to build. It would never work in the US, because too many people would bitch about it. But I think we need to more clear delineate between urban and country. This notion of sub-urban is truly insane. It's a waste of land and resources.

From reading what most have been saying over the last few days, it seems like most people don't believe things will change much, with people leaving the ubran core for the suburban areas. I have to disagree with that, for one simple reason. Over the long run, the price of gas is going to continue to go up; peak oil cannot be prevented. As such, people will be forced to move closer to the ubran center, closer to where they work. It's simply not possible for this sprawling trend to continue.

[cdc]

Interesting comments. When we moved here we had a big dilemma about
whether to live in the city near work (Oakland) or out in the suburbs
(e.g. the Fox Chapel area). We eventually chose Sq Hill, but there
are merits to the suburban choice that became clearer after living in
the city for a while. Here are some examples.


Schools. Most of my neighbors send their kids to private schools.
Base tuition for private school can run anywhere between $10K/year and
$20K/year, per child depending on what school you choose (Falk,
Winchester, Ellis, Shady Side Academy, Community Day, etc.). We've
got three young kids, so you can do the math. We are trying the PGH
public schools this year for our first grader, and frankly it has been
a real pain (I'll spare you the details).

All you guys talking about $4/gallon gas keeping people in the city:
forget about it! If you can use the suburban schools rather than
private ones you'll come out ahead with the tuition money you save.
$10K-20K/year per child buys a lot of gas, even at $4/gallon.


Housing costs. There is this myth going around that the cost of
housing in Pittsburgh is low. Not true. What is true is that there
is a lot of cheap substandard housing in places you'd never want your
family to live in that pull down the overall average housing cost in
the area. But if you want to live in a nice place like Sq. Hill in a
reasonable sized house with a yard that is not jammed right up between
your neighbors' houses it is going to cost you. If you don't believe
me, start looking at the Saturday PG's real estate listings (sale
prices in the 14th Ward). And then there is the taxes...


Housing style. I like modern architecture. I like high-tech energy
efficient homes. I like having a master bath. I like air
conditioning in the summer. I like having reasonable sized closets in
my bedrooms. I like modern electrical systems, with nice grounded
outlets for my safety. I like my sewer line to be free of tree roots.
I like attached garages so I don't have to park on the street and so I
can load/unload my kids and grocerys from the car without getting wet
in the rain or freezing in the cold. Sadly, it is just not possible
to easily get all that in the city --- something has to give! The
inevitable truth is that you are likely to end up with an old home
that needs some sort of ongoing renovation (think $$$).


Noise. What is with Oakland and loud helicopters? I wish they would
fly away. And Forbes is a great source for bus noise pollution.


Given all that, we are reasonable happy in Sq Hill, but there
definitely are some merits to the other side...

[cdc]

I like the solution for London. As I understand it, there is a ring of green around the city where people are not allowed to build. It would never work in the US, because too many people would bitch about it. But I think we need to more clear delineate between urban and country. This notion of sub-urban is truly insane. It's a waste of land and resources.


You might find this interesting, amusing, and/or annoying:

Debunking Portland: The City That Doesn't Work
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-596.pdf


Though many people consider Portland, Oregon, a model of 21st-century
urban planning, the region's integrated land-use and transportation
plans have greatly reduced the area's livability. To halt urban sprawl
and reduce people's dependence on the automobile, Portland's plans use
an urban-growth boundary to greatly increase the area's population
density, spend most of the region's transportation funds on various
rail transit projects, and promote construction of scores of
high-density, mixed-use developments.

[PA Pride]

Interesting comments. When we moved here we had a big dilemma about
whether to live in the city near work (Oakland) or out in the suburbs
(e.g. the Fox Chapel area). We eventually chose Sq Hill, but there
are merits to the suburban choice that became clearer after living in
the city for a while. Here are some examples.


Schools. Most of my neighbors send their kids to private schools.
Base tuition for private school can run anywhere between $10K/year and
$20K/year, per child depending on what school you choose (Falk,
Winchester, Ellis, Shady Side Academy, Community Day, etc.). We've
got three young kids, so you can do the math. We are trying the PGH
public schools this year for our first grader, and frankly it has been
a real pain (I'll spare you the details).

All you guys talking about $4/gallon gas keeping people in the city:
forget about it! If you can use the suburban schools rather than
private ones you'll come out ahead with the tuition money you save.
$10K-20K/year per child buys a lot of gas, even at $4/gallon.


Housing costs. There is this myth going around that the cost of
housing in Pittsburgh is low. Not true. What is true is that there
is a lot of cheap substandard housing in places you'd never want your
family to live in that pull down the overall average housing cost in
the area. But if you want to live in a nice place like Sq. Hill in a
reasonable sized house with a yard that is not jammed right up between
your neighbors' houses it is going to cost you. If you don't believe
me, start looking at the Saturday PG's real estate listings (sale
prices in the 14th Ward). And then there is the taxes...


Housing style. I like modern architecture. I like high-tech energy
efficient homes. I like having a master bath. I like air
conditioning in the summer. I like having reasonable sized closets in
my bedrooms. I like modern electrical systems, with nice grounded
outlets for my safety. I like my sewer line to be free of tree roots.
I like attached garages so I don't have to park on the street and so I
can load/unload my kids and grocerys from the car without getting wet
in the rain or freezing in the cold. Sadly, it is just not possible
to easily get all that in the city --- something has to give! The
inevitable truth is that you are likely to end up with an old home
that needs some sort of ongoing renovation (think $$$).


Noise. What is with Oakland and loud helicopters? I wish they would
fly away. And Forbes is a great source for bus noise pollution.


Given all that, we are reasonable happy in Sq Hill, but there
definitely are some merits to the other side...



I'm gonna simply respond to your post by saying that you have expensive taste.

[JackStraw]

cdc, I am going to respond on your need for newer efficient homes. First off, these Maronda and Ryan homes are not efficient. They are cheaply built, and have absolutely no green quality at all.

One thing, I mention Ryan and Maronda a lot. The reason, These are the affordable homes that most middle class people buy. As somebody said, they want their own house that they can choose the design, thats why they go to the burbs. Do you know how much money it cost to have a architect design a house just for you? Only the rich have their houses designed specifically for them. That is why Maronda and Ryan have 3 different models of their boxes and you choose which box is best for you.

Squirrel hill is a lot of money for a house, however there are many other neighborhoods. People are reconverting old houses into green housing in the slopes. I would feel much more better with myself fixing up a older house in the city for the same price as building a cookie cutter newer house in the burbs with a 20 year life expectancy.

In reference to people who build Mcmansions and cant afford them: (not you cdc, misunderstood few post downs)
How much space does a average human need? Seriously. It has been about two generations now that have been living this life style way past their means. Can a person really deserve their own bathroom, garage, car, and more without consequences? The mortgage bust was mostly to blame on Americans needing this gluttonous life style who where just middle class. Americans can't handle the fact of living within their means.

[JackStraw]

Alright, I can rant about the burbs like Bill Hicks on a whisky bender.

Here is another article I read yesterday on the bus about how Mt. Washington just can't live up to its potential. A neighborhood with one of the best views of one of the best skylines should be a booming happening place. In any other city this building would have been sold years ago and turned over into something worthwile. Another building is that horrible three rivers building by the Duquesne incline. Tear it down already and make this city live to it's potential.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_553257.html

Mt. Washington residents are tired of living near the Edge


By Jodi Weigand
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Wednesday, February 20, 2008


Some Mt. Washington residents are upset with a vacant, graffiti-covered building hulking over the cliff near the Monongahela Incline.
Site of the former Edge restaurant, the structure is a homeless haven, a graffiti painter's canvas and a developer's dead end, said members of a group who want it torn down.

"Shame on us, and shame on the city for letting it sit there for so many years," said Diane Delmer, a Mt. Washington resident spearheading Citizens Against Irresponsible Property Management.

The building, on Vinecliffe Street near the intersection of Grandview Avenue and Wyoming Street, has been vacant since 1979. It has been the focus of several failed development plans and has become an eyesore, according to Delmer's group, whose 11 members plan to circulate a petition to gather citywide support to tear it down.

The building's owner disputes the group's claims.
Dr. Francis Hurite, a Fox Chapel ophthalmologist, said he has no plans to demolish the structure.

"It's not going to fall off the mountain," he said. "There is some interest in the property right now, and I hope this doesn't make them walk away."

City officials condemned the building two weeks ago, citing deteriorated mortar, broken windows and rotted wooden decks that could collapse, according to the condemnation notice.

"That property has been a problem," said Jill Nolan-Harris, 44, a member of Delmer's group. "That rat trap is still there, and it's 10 times worse."

The notice gives Hurite two more weeks to initiate repairs or demolition, said Dan Cipriani, acting chief at the Pittsburgh Bureau of Building Inspection.

Hurite said he has started repairs. He recently spoke with city officials and said the building shouldn't have been condemned. He said he has hired a contractor to repaint the building, repair windows and install chains on the doorways.

"We're doing what we can to make it presentable," Hurite said.

Previous repairs, such as those made last summer when Hurite said he spent more than $50,000 boarding up windows and removing graffiti, weren't enough for some Mt. Washington residents.

"He did the minimum amount possible and walked away from it again," said Greg Panza, program manager of the Mt. Washington Community Development Corp., a group dedicated to enhancing the neighborhood. "It's a crime that it's been allowed to continue to deteriorate in such a prominent location."

One Grandview Associates, headed by Hurite, owns seven other lots on Vinecliffe. Since September, Illinois-based Steven Beemsterboer Inc. has purchased six nearby lots and is interested the Edge, Hurite said. The city and various other owners control the remainder of the properties.

Beemsterboer officials could not be reached for comment.

The Edge and adjacent properties, some of which are vacant, are attractive to investors, said Tara Tippel, a member of Delmar's group and a Mt. Washington real estate agent.

"I feel like (Mt. Washington) isn't up to its full potential, in terms of development, tourism and the look and structure of some of the homes," she said. "I want to capitalize on Mt. Washington and try to do things to make it better."

[designer3d712]

I'm gonna simply respond to your post by saying that you have expensive taste.
Expensive taste? Ok I'll buy a $400,000 1 bedroom apartment downtown. I will gladly pay the "quote me if I'm wrong" - 3.5 - 4 % wage tax. I will buy a nice little bike, so when my family wants to go on vacation, we can ride our bikes to Point State Park. I chose to Work in the city because that is where the money was ( not to mention not very much ) I had no choice but to move to the city for work because I was driving 100 miles round trip to get to work.

I grew up in the country. I like the cow fields, corn fields, the freedom to leave your doors open, windows open and not hear all the noise, or worry about violence. Everyone cries about people leaving Pennsylvania, but you also cry when they build houses that most people can actually afford. Ok build another Condo tower downtown so the wealthy can have another place in their arsenal. I make descent money but I could not afford that living, and you talk about expensive taste.

I only live 5 miles from downtown right now, and once I get enough money to purchase a house, I'm moving further away. It's ok that you have a hard-on for the city. Not everyone feels that way.

Nice post cdc

[Evergrey]

why can't you guys get it through your heads that we're not just talking about downtown condos... or even "City of Pittsburgh"... it's just a basic distinction between traditional "urban" living... which extends beyond the city proper to many of Pittsburgh's pre-WW2 suburbs versus the vile automobile-dependent sprawl of recent decades

It's not about having a "freedom to live wherever you want"... if exurbanites paid the true cost of living out in the middle of nowhere it would be ok... but layers of government have subsidized this low-density expansion of infrastructure to the detriment of established places for decades

and if you want a rural lifestyle, designer... go do that... there's also a distinction between rural and exurban / newer suburban... which in a vain attempt to acheive "rural living close to a metropolitan area" actually destroys that rural area

there's a big difference between something like this (Oakmont, just an example):
http://www.pbase.com/deadwing/image/80808779.jpg

and this (typical new sprawl; this is near Harrisburg):
http://www.centralpennbusiness.com/img/photos/swatarahoffman021508.jpg
photo credit: centralpennbusiness.com

[JackStraw]

I grew up in the country. I like the cow fields, corn fields, the freedom to leave your doors open, windows open and not hear all the noise, or worry about violence.


Nice post cdc

Lets hope one day Maronda will expand out there to that are in the country and put up a development called "Cow Patty Acres". They can subdivide the land up into half acre lots, put up a bunch of boxes with colors ranging from tan, off white, and kind of tan. Then hundreds of suburbinites will move in. Noise of traffic zooming up and down the sidewalkless street will be heard all day and night long. Also, believe it or not. The suburbs have crime also. Most kids grow up with the same amount of drug oppertunities in these sprawling boxes as do in the cities.

Like to add, As growing up in a small rural town of Duncansville, pa. I was a rural kid till I moved to the exburbs of Pittsburgh. If you are a real country rural person, you would also loath urban sprawl.

[Evergrey]

Right-wing road/sprawl-home-builder propaghanda mouthpieces like the Cato Institute, Joel Kotkin, Wendell Cox use economic arguments for their anti-mass-transit, anti-urban form, pro-automobile-sprawl agendas... but they are using a flawed form of economics. They rationalize that this is just free markets playing out... supply and demand... and that governments shouldn't get in the way of what people want. But they fail to incorporate intrusive government (local, state, federal) actions over the past 60 years into their economic model... actions that have distorted the market and have put established places... from big cities to traditional small towns... at a disadvantage compared to post-war phenomenon of automobile-dependent sprawl.

[designer3d712]

Lets hope one day Maronda will expand out there to that are in the country and put up a development called "Cow Patty Acres".

Good I hope they do.

That picture of Oakmont above is nice, but it will never be replicated.

I don't disagree that the Maronda homes are cheap and repetitive, but people are building and buying them like crazy. Guess that's what most people want/ can afford.

[JackStraw]

Good I hope they do.

That picture of Oakmont above is nice, but it will never be replicated.

I don't disagree that the Maronda homes are cheap and repetitive, but people are building and buying them like crazy. Guess that's what most people want/ can afford.

You really want your country farms and corn fields turned to Maronda homes with boxes of a 20 year life expectancy with no real actual town to be replace your pretty country land?

Rock on!

Oakmont will never be replicated. True. We should just abandon every town like it, leave them to rot, and detroy the last of Pennsylvania's rural land! Screw these nice towns. There isn't enough room for me and my 3 hummers anyways.

[Evergrey]

That picture of Oakmont above is nice, but it will never be replicated.


Wrong.

Developers are replicating Oakmont right now.... in Oakmont of all places.

http://riversedgeofoakmont.com/

http://www.liveatedgewater.com/

It's still possible to build new neighborhoods that have an "authenticity of place"... that people can give a damn about... that have an enriching civic realm... that allow for a sensible mix of uses... that allow for walkability and transit... that allow for diversity of lifestyles. Low-density sprawl is not inevitable.

[Grego43]

Could we not let this thread devolve into snide remarks & personal attacks?

In regards to Oakmont, last I heard from a local is that the developer was having problems with permitting and was cutting the scope of the project. Any word on that?

[JackStraw]

Could we not let this thread devolve into snide remarks & personal attacks?

In regards to Oakmont, last I heard from a local is that the developer was having problems with permitting and was cutting the scope of the project. Any word on that?

I've been getting repimanded for sarcasm since I was 5. Can't I post sarcasm once in a while?

I wanted to ask the same questions with the oakmont project. Such as what is the timeline on it? What is the exact site location?

I couldn't find the info on their pdf file.

[Evergrey]

Oakmont borough council has been giving the two developers a hard time about "density" and "traffic issues". Kacin (Edgewater) threatened a law suit against Oakmont due to their extreme delays... don't know if it was ever followed through. Last thing I heard in early January was that groundbreaking didn't take place in 2007 as expected... and that developers were still meeting with borough officials.

[Grego43]

I've been getting repimanded for sarcasm since I was 5. Can't I post sarcasm once in a while?


JackStraw, you don't know me, (perhaps someday you'll have the great pleasure ;) ) but I was born with a sarcastic spoon in my mouth. But jeebus, implying cdc is living a gluttonous lifestyle because of the desire for a master bath, large closets, and a/c is a bit much.

I must admit, however, I did LOL at "cow patty acres".

[JackStraw]

JackStraw, you don't know me, (perhaps someday you'll have the great pleasure ;) ) but I was born with a sarcastic spoon in my mouth. But jeebus, implying cdc is living a gluttonous lifestyle because of the desire for a master bath, large closets, and a/c is a bit much.

I must admit, however, I did LOL at "cow patty acres".

That was read wrong. I was not implying cdc was trying to live a gluttonous lifestyle. I was trying to state that many Americans are living outside of their means, hence the mortgage bust. I don't know cdc, and did not imply that to him. I was stating that people in my parents urban sprawl neighborhoods that had hummers, Mcmansions, boats, and the works, and could not afford their lifestyle where being gluttonous. Hope that makes sense.

After reading my post, I can see it sounds like it was directed to him. I was just describing America's lifestyle over the last two generations that we are all guilty of. For the record, It was not directed to him. Just the people who took credit out of control, built Mcmansions they couldn't afford, and fd up our economy. Even I lived past my means for years, and are not afraid to admit it.

[PA Pride]

Expensive taste? Ok I'll buy a $400,000 1 bedroom apartment downtown. I will gladly pay the "quote me if I'm wrong" - 3.5 - 4 % wage tax. I will buy a nice little bike, so when my family wants to go on vacation, we can ride our bikes to Point State Park. I chose to Work in the city because that is where the money was ( not to mention not very much ) I had no choice but to move to the city for work because I was driving 100 miles round trip to get to work.

I grew up in the country. I like the cow fields, corn fields, the freedom to leave your doors open, windows open and not hear all the noise, or worry about violence. Everyone cries about people leaving Pennsylvania, but you also cry when they build houses that most people can actually afford. Ok build another Condo tower downtown so the wealthy can have another place in their arsenal. I make descent money but I could not afford that living, and you talk about expensive taste.

I only live 5 miles from downtown right now, and once I get enough money to purchase a house, I'm moving further away. It's ok that you have a hard-on for the city. Not everyone feels that way.

Nice post cdc


HEY!! I said he has expensive taste because he picked Squirrel Hill, One of the MOST expensive neighborhoods in the Pittsburgh metro, and said his options are sending his kids to a 10-20 thousand dollar a year private school!!! You don't think that's expensive taste?

I think that's fine, in fact I would like to send my kids to an expensive private school someday (my sister is a teacher at the Sewickley Academy), but I just don't think that is an 'average representation' for how much it costs to live in a nice neighborhood in the city.

[JackStraw]

We should get this thread back on topic about pittsburgh Compilations. Not suburb bashing. It really isn't going to go anywhere. I also think it was me that started it on a rant about gas or something three pages ago. Sorry to anybody who is getting offset discussing Market square development.

[Evergrey]

Well, a good portion of the metro is "sprawl"... it's a major component of our region's population and economic activity... so if people want to talk about it... it should be allowed. Just keep personal attacks out of it and be civil (though I have no problem with sarcasm as it can be effective and hilarious).


...

sometimes you just gotta ask yourself... "what would Jerry do?"

[JackStraw]

Well, a good portion of the metro is "sprawl"... it's a major component of our region's population and economic activity... so if people want to talk about it... it should be allowed. Just keep personal attacks out of it and be civil (though I have no problem with sarcasm as it can be effective and hilarious).

Yes, you are correct. I just feel the last page went a little uncivil, and some do to my dumbass writing a post making it seem like a harsh personal attack, when I didn't mean it that way.

It just seems like nobody is understanding each others point of view. Like you and I both agree that suburbs are not all bad, exept the urban sprawl developemnts being a waste of resources, and poor development.

Then others think that we mean they all have to go against their personal freedom and be stuffed to live in a small apartment in a oakland highrise against their will.

[PA Pride]

Yeah, haha i got a little hotheaded; I edited my last post with the swearing... oops...
I'm glad all of us in this thread at least care about this city and metro enough to have spirited conversations about its well being.

I respect everyone here.

[Tombstoner]

One thing I definitely agree with cdc on is that Pittsburgh is not really cheap. I've been looking for a place to buy in a charming neighborhood and even if the prices are reasonable, the taxes are absurd! I was looking at a place for less than 700K (far above my limit, but the location was where I wanted) and the taxes were 14K a year! Here in Atlanta, you'd pay somewhere closer to 6 or 7K max. A nice condo in Oakland was a reasonable 290K but the HOA fees (no amenities to speak of) were over $500/month and the taxes were $500/month. So before you even pay your mortgage, you're shelling out $1000/month. As cdc says, the "bargain" places in Pittsburgh are not where you want to be. Still, I'm gonna find a place somehow--I just love the city.

[JackStraw]

One thing I definitely agree with cdc on is that Pittsburgh is not really cheap. I've been looking for a place to buy in a charming neighborhood and even if the prices are reasonable, the taxes are absurd! I was looking at a place for less than 700K (far above my limit, but the location was where I wanted) and the taxes were 14K a year! Here in Atlanta, you'd pay somewhere closer to 6 or 7K max. A nice condo in Oakland was a reasonable 290K but the HOA fees (no amenities to speak of) were over $500/month and the taxes were $500/month. So before you even pay your mortgage, you're shelling out $1000/month. As cdc says, the "bargain" places in Pittsburgh are not where you want to be. Still, I'm gonna find a place somehow--I just love the city.

I rent, so I don't know what mortgage and tax prices are in owning a place. However, What are "bargain" prices. A house in Squirrel hill and Shadyside is going to cost you. I wonder what friendship is, or the southside slopes. I know the slopes where dirt cheap until now that they are increasing a lot. Lawrenceville is fairly cheap. I think that is one of the most interesting neighborhoods in the city.

[UrbaniDesDev]

You might find this interesting, amusing, and/or annoying:

Debunking Portland: The City That Doesn't Work
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-596.pdf

from wikepedia;

"some critics have accused Cato of being too tied to corporate funders, especially in the 1990s. Critical sources report that Cato received funding from Phillip Morris and other tobacco companies in the 1990s, and that at one point Rupert Murdoch served on the boards of directors of both Cato and Phillip Morris. The Knight Ridder newspapers reported that in the late 1990s Cato received financial contributions from the American International Group, "an insurance and financial services company whose business includes managing U.S. retirement plans" as Social Security reform emerged as a more prominent issue. Between 1998 and 2004 the Cato Institute received $90,000 of its funding from ExxonMobil — about a tenth of a percent of the organization's budget over that period"

[UrbaniDesDev]

Alright, I can rant about the burbs like Bill Hicks on a whisky bender.

Here is another article I read yesterday on the bus about how Mt. Washington just can't live up to its potential. A neighborhood with one of the best views of one of the best skylines should be a booming happening place. In any other city this building would have been sold years ago and turned over into something worthwile. Another building is that horrible three rivers building by the Duquesne incline. Tear it down already and make this city live to it's potential.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_553257.html

Mt. Washington residents are tired of living near the Edge


By Jodi Weigand
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Wednesday, February 20, 2008


Some Mt. Washington residents are upset with a vacant, graffiti-covered building hulking over the cliff near the Monongahela Incline.
Site of the former Edge restaurant, the structure is a homeless haven, a graffiti painter's canvas and a developer's dead end, said members of a group who want it torn down.

"Shame on us, and shame on the city for letting it sit there for so many years," said Diane Delmer, a Mt. Washington resident spearheading Citizens Against Irresponsible Property Management.

The building, on Vinecliffe Street near the intersection of Grandview Avenue and Wyoming Street, has been vacant since 1979. It has been the focus of several failed development plans and has become an eyesore, according to Delmer's group, whose 11 members plan to circulate a petition to gather citywide support to tear it down.

The building's owner disputes the group's claims.
Dr. Francis Hurite, a Fox Chapel ophthalmologist, said he has no plans to demolish the structure.

"It's not going to fall off the mountain," he said. "There is some interest in the property right now, and I hope this doesn't make them walk away."

City officials condemned the building two weeks ago, citing deteriorated mortar, broken windows and rotted wooden decks that could collapse, according to the condemnation notice.

"That property has been a problem," said Jill Nolan-Harris, 44, a member of Delmer's group. "That rat trap is still there, and it's 10 times worse."

The notice gives Hurite two more weeks to initiate repairs or demolition, said Dan Cipriani, acting chief at the Pittsburgh Bureau of Building Inspection.

Hurite said he has started repairs. He recently spoke with city officials and said the building shouldn't have been condemned. He said he has hired a contractor to repaint the building, repair windows and install chains on the doorways.

"We're doing what we can to make it presentable," Hurite said.

Previous repairs, such as those made last summer when Hurite said he spent more than $50,000 boarding up windows and removing graffiti, weren't enough for some Mt. Washington residents.

"He did the minimum amount possible and walked away from it again," said Greg Panza, program manager of the Mt. Washington Community Development Corp., a group dedicated to enhancing the neighborhood. "It's a crime that it's been allowed to continue to deteriorate in such a prominent location."

One Grandview Associates, headed by Hurite, owns seven other lots on Vinecliffe. Since September, Illinois-based Steven Beemsterboer Inc. has purchased six nearby lots and is interested the Edge, Hurite said. The city and various other owners control the remainder of the properties.

Beemsterboer officials could not be reached for comment.

The Edge and adjacent properties, some of which are vacant, are attractive to investors, said Tara Tippel, a member of Delmar's group and a Mt. Washington real estate agent.

"I feel like (Mt. Washington) isn't up to its full potential, in terms of development, tourism and the look and structure of some of the homes," she said. "I want to capitalize on Mt. Washington and try to do things to make it better."

This is outrageous!

Just unbelieveable.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08024/851686-28.stm

Infighting marks Mount Washington's past, present
Thursday, January 24, 2008
By Bill Toland, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Second of two parts

Within Pittsburgh's city limits, Mount Washington, with its million-dollar views and penny-ante feuds, is rivaled by perhaps only the Hill District when it comes to its capacity for tribal warfare.

Opinionated residents form alliances. The blue-collar faction aligned behind Frank Valenta, a former labor organizer skilled at politicking, often is in agreement with Paul Renne's supporters who, like Mr. Renne (a former H.J. Heinz chief financial officer ), typically are from a more professional class.

These groups can find themselves feuding with the more environmentally conscious Mount Washington residents -- those who have worked to preserve Grandview Park and its hillside trees. The people who live closer Bailey and Boggs avenues, the former with its stately brick homes and the latter with its neglected business strip, feel overlooked by the rest. And then there are the Mount's independent stakeholders, those like Chuck Wallace, who owns Wallace Florist and a dozen more parcels on Virginia Avenue.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part One Yesterday:
Mountain of potential
Part Two Today: Tribal warfare in Mount Washington

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They're not uniquely querulous. Before Mr. Renne and Mr. Valenta were feuding with Mr. Wallace, the likes of Sam Spatter, Philip Baskin, Gil Kaib, Dr. Paul Petraglia and William Kerschbaumer were doing the same, arguing over hotel projects and zoning changes, slinging mud or, in Mr. Kaib's case, even suing the city.

The infighting can be demoralizing, and it's one of the reasons many business and property owners say that Mount Washington, for all of its built-in potential, is losing some of the luster that made it one of the most livable neighborhoods in America's most livable city.

"We're going backwards, in my opinion," Mr. Wallace said.

Backward, forward, or stagnant -- it's a critical crossroads for Mount Washington, as it considers a new business blueprint, mulls zoning changes for Virginia Avenue and searches for a new director for it development board, hoping to settle on a vision for the neighborhood.

But whose vision?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Locator Map
Mount Washington Development

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a good thing, the rivals say about each other, that so many care so deeply about the community. But with so many people rushing forth to be the standard-bearers of the Mount, it's easy for legs to get tangled: Older residents are leery of newcomers. Homeowners are aggravated by landlords and renters.

Paul Tellers, former president of the Mount Washington Community Development Corporation, recalls the hostility he sometimes faced because he lived in Chatham Village, a community of brick townhomes sequestered from the rest of the Mount.

"When a person from Chatham Village offers an opinion, some people would say, 'What do you care? This doesn't affect you,'" he said.

There are possibly two things that everyone can agree on -- that they are tired of waiting for Craig Cozza, the developer who has the zoning approval to build two condo towers along Grandview Avenue, to go ahead and finally build. And they're tired of waiting for someone to raze the Edge, the boarded-up Grandview restaurant owned by opthamologist Francis Hurite.

"Isn't that a shame?" Mr. Valenta said. "Where the hell is city hall on this one?"

But even in these cases, the neighborhood bears at least a bit of culpability. "We continue to get lawsuits from the neighbor behind us," said Mr. Cozza of his planned 10-story tower in the 1400 block of Grandview. "We can't get any momentum there."

And several developers have expressed interest in the Edge site, near the Monongahela Incline, but they've been shooed away by residents worried about traffic, parking, eminent domain and the structural integrity of the hillside, which drops toward a recessed area of Mount Washington known as The Saddle. "We have to be one of the only communities that has ever chased the Ritz-Carlton away," said Mr. Wallace.

The Ritz-Carlton project had its innate problems -- namely, an inability to secure financing. But that was years ago, in the early 1990s. More recently, local developer Luke Desmone proposed a luxury hotel and apartment for the Edge site, and word is that he is interested again, though neither Mr. Desmone nor Dr. Hurite could be reached.

But as history has shown, mere interest in Mount Washington isn't nearly enough. You also have to win the minds of its most politically active residents.

"There are the people who live on Grandview," said Common Pleas Court Judge Alan Hertzberg, and "then there's everybody else up there."

The Census seems to back him up. The median income of those in the 15211 ZIP code was $34,000 in 2000. But those earning more than $200,000 annually had $246.7 million in aggregate income, compared to $22.2 million combined for everyone else.

"Everyone else" might not mind new retail shops, he suggested, but the Grandview crowd has the time and resources to fight whatever it doesn't like.

Mr. Hertzberg is a veteran of these Mount Washington battlegrounds. A former city councilman, he represented Mount Washington, and his time on council was marked by ongoing contests over zoning and development on the Mount. The biggest came four years ago, when he was on the losing side of a fight to allow more high-density housing on Grandview. Council voted 8-1 to create a special zoning label for Grandview Avenue, limiting new buildings to 40 feet and restricting the number of housing units in one building. The zoning campaign was led by Mr. Renne and his wife, Joyce.

Mr. Hertzberg contrasts his experiences in Mount Washington to the West End, which he also represented while on City Council. "They were development-hungry down there," he said. That hunger has begun to pay dividends, with new shops and restaurants in what still is a transitional neighborhood.

"I understand the people's perspective -- the longtime residents, they don't want to see things change," he said. "But this is one of the key locations in Pittsburgh. I always felt we needed to take advantage of it."

That phrase "take advantage" has two meanings. Developers want to take advantage of the view, the moneyed homeowners and the built-in tourist draw. But many of the neighborhood stalwarts feel the would-be developers want to take advantage of the community and its people, buying up tracts of residential homes and plopping a big box, like the Virginia Avenue Rite Aid pharmacy, in its place.

"If he wants to live across the street from a Burger King, that's fine," said Michele Cunko, whose duplex sits near the Rite Aid and across from the properties owned by Mr. Wallace.

"But I don't."

Changes comes slowly, by result. The Edge restaurant has been empty since 1979. And it took 15 years to raze the former St. Mary of the Mount High School, a prime bit of Grandview Avenue real estate that was a magnet for derelicts and vandals until a developer agreed to build some townhouses there.

The pace of progress there isn't uncommon among post-industrial cities, of course, but in neighborhood unanimously agreed to have so much potential, it's especially frustrating.

"There's enough people on Mount Washington that are uncomfortable with change that it's not a fertile ground for development," Mr. Tellers said.

And so development, for the time being, will come bit-by-bit, and not in the sweeping, neighborhood-altering way that it's come to, say, East Liberty. That's where the Main Street planning, led by the CDC, comes in, recruiting businesses that are good fits for certain streets. Shiloh, for example, which connects with Grandview near the Monongahela Incline, seems a better fit for tourist gift shops and restaurants (one survey said 13 percent of the people who shop on Shiloh are tourists or from out of town). Virginia and Boggs may better suited for neighborhood services such as groceries, delis, bakeries, doctors offices and dry cleaners.

If Mount Washington is to rebound from its self-diagnosed malaise, it will require a greater degree of cooperation and communication than has been customary, said Pete Karlovich, whose glassy modern mansion on Bailey Avenue is one of the biggest single-family investments the area has ever seen. Last fall, he ran for, and was elected to, Mount Washington's CDC. "We've made a fairly large investment up here," he said, speaking for himself and partner Steve Herforth. Now, "we turned our attention to the rest of the neighborhood."

They bought a house across the street, and are in the process of turning it into a high-end duplex. Two blocks to the west, they've purchased a commercial building, updating the apartments on the top floors and the retail space on the bottom. They've also had their eyes on other nearby buildings with potential, and with city views.

Mr. Karlovich believes others with deep pockets see the benefit of a piecemeal approach, citing several residential and commercial buildings that have changed hands recently and are being renovated, without much community opposition. Now, he said, "there are some folks who are trying to do some things."

But then, people have been trying to do things there for years. Getting things done is something else altogether.

Bill Toland can be reached at btoland@post-gazette.com or 412-263-2625.