[AaronPGH]

I've heard from a very trusted source about a couple big things they've been working on in the background that are being kept quiet. If everything they've said pans out to be true, there will be some surprises soon hopefully to help balance out the stuff not going on.

[edncc1701d]

Although realistically this one has probably been dead for a while, another one bites the dust... And with Forest City not planning to do anything, I don't see anything good or meaningful occurring at Station Square in the near future.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09099/961607-28.stm

Convention center hotel plans on hold
Thursday, April 09, 2009
By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

With the economy in shambles, local officials have shelved plans to seek new proposals from developers interested in building a long-delayed $104 million hotel next to the David L. Lawrence Convention Center, Downtown.

The city-Allegheny Sports & Exhibition Authority has decided to wait until economic conditions improve before considering a rebid of the project, Executive Director Mary Conturo said.

"We think in this economy it is not likely that we would get a meaningful response," she said.

The SEA had been considering a new request for proposals after negotiations stalled with Forest City Enterprises, the Cleveland developer selected six years ago to build the so-called headquarters hotel with as many as 500 rooms.

But even with the lure of $34 million in public subsidies for the project, the SEA has been unable to complete a deal with Forest City to undertake the project, which those in the local tourism industry see as a key to increasing the number of conventions in Pittsburgh.

In order to meet the budget, the developer has sought to cut the number of rooms from 500 to 300. But the SEA and city and county leaders want a hotel with at least 400 to 500 rooms.

With a rebid on hold, Ms. Conturo said the SEA will continue to talk to Forest City as well as anybody else who expresses the least bit of interest in the endeavor.

But the prospects for reaching a deal with Forest City may be growing dimmer rather than stronger given the economic climate.

In its year-end earnings statement, Forest City reported a net loss of $112.2 million, or $1.09 a share, and said it won't start construction on any new projects in 2009 except for two -- an arena at the Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn and a fee-based City Hall project in Las Vegas.

"That's obviously subject to change, but at this point we don't have firm commitments for anything else this year," Forest City spokesman Jeff Linton said.

He did not know the status of the hotel talks.

Ms. Conturo said the SEA at this point is willing to talk to any developer with an interest in the project. She said the agency has "gotten inquiries and expressions of interest" from others about the hotel. But she conceded the project may be a hard sell given the economy.

"As you know this is a very difficult market. So that is not helping in trying to get a difficult project started," she said.

Joseph McGrath, president and chief executive officer of Visit Pittsburgh, has said the city loses 80,000 room nights a year because of the lack of the convention center hotel.

As envisioned, the facility would be paired with the existing 616-room Westin Convention Center hotel next to the convention center to provide a bank of more than 1,000 rooms.

While the convention center project has languished, about half a dozen hotels Downtown, on the North Shore and the South Side are in various stages of construction.
Mark Belko can be reached at mbelko@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1262.

[edncc1701d]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_619845.html

Pittsburgh-area job market slowly spreads as decentralization takes place

By Thomas Olson
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, April 9, 2009

Most Pittsburgh-area jobs are located within a few miles of Downtown, but the region's job base is a little less centralized than it was a decade ago, according to a study released Wednesday.

"Pittsburgh makes the list of the more centralized, large metropolitan areas for jobs," said Elizabeth Kneebone, senior research analyst at the Brookings Institution, a public policy think tank in Washington.

Pittsburgh's job base in the Downtown area is concentrated in finance, universities, health care and health sciences. And those types of jobs tend to be centralized. "But it's not like the region is immune to job sprawl," she said.

Between 1998 and 2006, the area within three miles of Downtown Pittsburgh lost nearly 1,500 jobs, declining from 262,750 to 261,279. By comparison, the area between three and 10 miles from Downtown gained more than 32,600 jobs during that time.

"Of the 98 metropolitan areas we studied, 95 saw a shift in jobs from the urban core," said Kneebone, who authored the study, "Job Sprawl Revisited: The Changing Geography of Metropolitan Employment."

The study showed that more than half of the manufacturing, construction and retail jobs in those 98 metropolitan areas located more than 10 miles away from the downtown areas.

"Most jobs in any regional economy are retail and personal services jobs. They locate where the people are, and people are moving farther out," said Harold Miller, president of Future Strategies, an economic consulting firm Downtown.

For instance, jobs in the Cranberry area grew when people started moving there in droves in the early 1990s, after Interstate 279 was constructed. A lot of retail and personal services jobs followed, "things like retail outlets, and hospitals and doctors' offices, schools, and so forth," said Miller.

"We've had similar growth around the (Pittsburgh International) airport area, in Moon and Findlay townships, because you had a major highway (Route 60) go in that extends all the way to Beaver," said the economist.

Some manufacturing jobs migrated from the city due to the availability of developable industrial sites, he said. It is often difficult to redevelop Pittsburgh's steel and other old sites for modern manufacturers because, for one thing, those brownfield sites are often located beside rail lines, but not major highways.

"Pittsburgh also has bigger challenges than most places because of the topography," said Miller. "You have to go farther from a Downtown location than you'd like to find developable property."

Still, Pittsburgh remained one of the cities whose job base was more centralized, according to the study. It ranked Pittsburgh as seventh among larger cities, with about 26 percent of its jobs located within three miles of Downtown in 2006.

Most centralized was Virginia Beach, Va., with more than 36 percent. New York was second, at about 35 percent.

Larger cities with the least centralized job bases were Detroit and Chicago in 2006. Detroit had more than 77 percent of its jobs located more than 10 miles away from downtown, and Chicago had about 69 percent.

Thomas Olson can be reached at tolson@tribweb.com or 412-320-7854.

[edncc1701d]

Some retail cannibalization. But perhaps the silver lining might be that Walnut Street could return to its local boutique roots...

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09099/961609-28.stm

Bakery Square still going strong
Thursday, April 09, 2009
By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The recession doesn't seem to be dragging down the $130 million Bakery Square project in the East End.

Developer Walnut Capital Management announced yesterday that it had landed its first office tenant -- the University of Pittsburgh's Human Engineering Research Laboratories.

HERL, a partnership between Pitt, UPMC, and the VA Pittsburgh Healthcare System, will take about 40,000 square feet in Bakery Square, the former Nabisco plant in Larimer. HERL is led by Dr. Rory Cooper, one of the world's foremost authorities on wheelchair design. He uses a wheelchair as a result of injuries suffered during military service.

At least 100 employees will be relocating from the VA complex on Highland Drive, said Gregg M. Perelman, Walnut Capital managing partner. They plan to move in by September or October.

"We're so excited. The university also is looking to take additional space in the building. We're excited to have the University of Pittsburgh involved in this project," he said.

Walnut Capital has about 200,000 square feet of office space available in the Bakery Square complex, which also will include retail and a hotel.

During a brokers reception yesterday, the developer confirmed that home furnishings retailer Pottery Barn will be relocating to Bakery Square from Walnut Street in Shadyside. It will join sister store West Elm furniture; Anthropologie, a women's clothing store; and Urban Active Fitness at the site. All are scheduled to open in spring 2010.

Once its lease is up, Pottery Barn will be leaving a three-level store in Shadyside rented from Walnut Capital to take the Bakery Square space.

Mr. Perelman said the retailer would have left the East End altogether if it could not find a space big enough for single-level store, which it prefers.

Walnut Capital also reportedly is negotiating with Ann Taylor Loft, which closed a store in SouthSide Works earlier this year, and Ugly Tuna Saloona, a Florida-based seafood grill, to locate at Bakery Square. It also is in talks with a local restaurant and a Japanese steak house.
Mark Belko can be reached at mbelko@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1262.

[Evergrey]

well, the interesting thing about the Pottery Barn move is that both their Walnut St. space and Bakery Square are owned by Walnut Capital... so it's not like Walnut Capital is hurting someone else... though it will have a negative impact on the rest of Walnut St. business district... I normally wouldn't worry since that is such a highly sought after business district... but the recession may make finding a tenant more difficult (though perhaps Walnut Capital already has something lined up)

I'm more concerned that Walnut Capital was so intent on making a fitness center such a key component of the Bakery Square development... considering Club One fitness center is basically right next door

[themaguffin]

Good, bring back the Balcony.

[AaronPGH]

From what I've heard, Walnut has some grand plans for the Pottery Barn space.

[Downtown_Austin]

Good, bring back the Balcony.

YES! I grew up on Copeland St in the early 80's just around the corner from the Balcony. Pittsburgh is fortunate to have such distinct and walkable neighborhoods.

-Jude

[Tombstoner]

Good, bring back the Balcony.

:tup: :tup: :tup:

[Steel Boy]

Bring back the Shadyside Theater! That's what was there before even the Balcony went in. I know, single-screen theaters are dead. But it would be nice. I'm sure that Walnut Capital will bring in a quality tenant. Walnut Street is a gem.

[Black-n-Gold]

I've heard from a very trusted source about a couple big things they've been working on in the background that are being kept quiet. If everything they've said pans out to be true, there will be some surprises soon hopefully to help balance out the stuff not going on.

Unfortunately I'm afraid an equal number of projects have quietly gone on hold. Look back at all of the talk from last summer - there should be a number of projects breaking ground any day now.

[AaronPGH]

Unfortunately I'm afraid an equal number of projects have quietly gone on hold. Look back at all of the talk from last summer - there should be a number of projects breaking ground any day now.

Yeah I know...it's a shame. It sucks that while Pittsburgh could probably have absorbed these projects successfully, financing for them fell victim to the rest of the country's problems.

[Johnland]

^Yeah, I guess it can vary based on who you talk to.

All I know is: me and my mother who are a real estate team are getting dozens of phone calls a day, several new listings in the last week. Deals coming together. The interest rates are like 4.5%. The lowest since a brief period in 1963. The government is giving away $8,000 to first time homebuyers until Dec. 1st '09 that you don't have to pay back... And there are lots of cheap houses out there! It is insane to NOT buy right now.

Now you've really got me thinking Pittsburgh for real estate investment.

[PA Pride]

Now you've really got me thinking Pittsburgh for real estate investment.


:tup:

[zeno3333333]

:tup:

Pittsburgh has been for a while the best for the money housing wise for a large urban area.

[Evergrey]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09100/961855-53.stm?cmpid=newspanel1

Interest in condos at new PNC high-rise strong despite economy

Friday, April 10, 2009
By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200904/3pnc30410_500.jpg
Andy Starnes/Post-Gazette
Helen Hanna Casey, president of Howard Hanna Real Estate Services, shows off the million-dollar view from the 22nd floor of The Residences at Three PNC Plaza, above.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200904/3pnc40410_500.jpg
Andy Starnes/Post-Gazette

The Residences - Three PNC Plaza - the 26-story project has upscale condominiums located on floors 14-23 of the tower.

It might be the ultimate nose bleed seat, and an expensive one at that. But it's also one gorgeous view.

From a condo on the 22nd floor of Three PNC Plaza, it will be possible, with the help of a pair of binoculars, to watch a Pirates game from the comfort of your living room, except perhaps for balls hit into the right field corner.

But a bird's-eye view of PNC Park isn't the only visual treat awaiting buyers willing to plunk down more than half a million dollars in the midst of a recession to purchase one of 28 condos for sale at The Residences.

It's a vantage point rarely found Downtown, except maybe for hot air balloon riders. Market Square, so familiar on the ground, becomes a tapestry of cobblestone and brick. Intricately carved lions' heads peer from the top of the Diamond Building at Fifth and Liberty avenues.

"When you live down there nobody even knows there are lions' heads or architecture there. When you live up here, you look at that stuff and say, 'Wow, that's really cool,'" said Rob Cicco, development manager for Oxford Development.

Howard Hanna, which is marketing the units for PNC Financial Services Group, hopes the views, along with top-of-the-line amenities, will sell people on the condos, which start at $514,500 and can reach $2.5 million to $3 million for an entire floor.

Standard features include hardwood floors, wool carpeting, granite counter tops, Toto plumbing fixtures, a wine refrigerator and floor to ceiling windows to soak in the views. Like the rest of the $200 million building, the units will have a green and sustainable design.

The one- to three-bedroom condos are being built on the west side of the new Fifth Avenue office tower and will run from the 14th to 23rd floors. The top floor will feature a penthouse that will span the west side of the building.

Howard Hanna plans to take sealed bids for the penthouse. Helen Hanna Casey, president of Howard Hanna Real Estate Services, said the company was looking for "in excess of $3 million" for that space.

Despite the glum economy, interest in the condos has been steady since Howard Hanna first started marketing the units in late October-early November, Ms. Casey said.

So far, the realtor has secured five buyers with contracts "in various stages." The prices of those units ranged from $700,000 to more than $1 million.

The fact that Howard Hanna has been able to generate sales in the midst of the recession is "a very positive thing for us," Mrs. Casey said.

"Certainly it is a challenge," she added in a separate interview. "But I think it depends really on what you are selling. Certainly the high-end product, which is very specialized ... is different than a lot of the other condos you see."

The biggest worry for buyers has not been the size of the investment but concerns about being able to sell their existing home, Ms. Casey said. "I would say that's the bigger fear -- what's the timing going to work like."

Condo buyers will have access to valet parking and room service from the luxury 185-room hotel to be operated by Toronto-based Fairmont Hotels and Resort, which will share the same floors as the condos but on the east side of the building.

"You can choose as much luxury as you want," Ms. Casey said.

She expects interest -- and sales -- to increase once the Three PNC Plaza lobby is completed and visitors are able to take standard elevators to the top floors rather than the temporary one that now lurches its way up the side of the skyscraper.

During a recent visit, most floors had yet to be divided into individual units, the smallest of which will run about 1,297 square feet. There will be a maximum of three units per floor. A more finished product could make a difference in sales as well, Ms. Casey said.

The condos will be part of a building that will include the hotel, the new home for the Reed Smith law firm and PNC offices. Reed Smith is expected to start moving in by late spring or early summer. The condos should start being available by late 2009 and into 2010.

In addition to the condos, the building can meet U.S. Green Building Council-established Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design Standards, or LEED, in its core and shell, the Reed Smith and PNC spaces and the hotel.
Mark Belko can be reached at mbelko@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1262.

[Evergrey]

here's a partial article from this week's Pittsburgh Business Times... SouthSide Works is finally building upon that empty corner across from Tusca... it's interesting to see this development continue on with a mix of wins (Hofbrauhaus, this new building) and losses (Z Gallerie, lack of credit for riverfront condos and hotel).

http://pittsburgh.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2009/04/13/story15.html

Shady Grove restaurant ‘perfect fit’ for SouthSide Works

Pittsburgh Business Times - by Tim Schooley

Gregg Caliguiri and his partners are ready to give their newest casual bar and restaurant concept a second location.

Caliguiri, who owns the Walnut Grill in Shadyside, plans to open a Shady Grove restaurant at the SouthSide Works on Pittsburgh’s South Side.

This week, Shady Grove LLC, a new division of the Walnut Tree Restaurant Group, reached an agreement with The Soffer Organization to open a 5,500-square-foot location in the first floor of a new two-story building custom-designed for the restaurant’s use at the corner of Sidney and 28th streets.

The Shady Grove is expected to bring new energy to what is now an empty corner across from Tusca.

[PA Pride]

Wow, that's an awesome view. I would love to live in PNC 3. But this quote:
upscale condominiums located on floors 14-23 of the tower.

It might be the ultimate nose bleed seat,

What the hell? Do they realize in many cities like Chicago, NYC and Hong Kong it is not uncommon at all to have residential buildings 50-80+ stories tall. Nose bleed at 14 stories? LOL

[bruchaus]

Wow, that's an awesome view. I would love to live in PNC 3. But this quote:


What the hell? Do they realize in many cities like Chicago, NYC and Hong Kong it is not uncommon at all to have residential buildings 50-80+ stories tall. Nose bleed at 14 stories? LOL


I believe they are referring to the next sentence which states you can watch the games at PNC Park from the building, referring to the building as nose-bleed seats, like those at the top of a baseball stadium.

[MattofSloppyVariety]

Hello, first post, sorry i'm late for the party.

I just stumbled across this forum while bored and doing mindless searches on google. I have to say though, that i am now hooked. Very insightful and informative. I know consider myself in the know of what's being developed in the city. I no longer have to wonder aloud to my SO and annoy him when we drive past a dirt lot, or a pile of bricks.

I do have some opinions and questions, but i also have to admit that i have a limited vocabulary when it comes to development jargon.

My first question is any idea of what's going to be going in at the corner of Negley Run and East Liberty Blvd? I drive past it everyday for work and have noticed, after the 'beware: rat poison' sings, that what was once ugly red row houses is now pile of ugly red bricks (which i seen someone loading into a Home Depot cart)?

Also, i snapped a picture of the work going on to tear down that tower in East Liberty, i just now have to figure how to transfer it from my phone and post it.

[PA Pride]

I believe they are referring to the next sentence which states you can watch the games at PNC Park from the building, referring to the building as nose-bleed seats, like those at the top of a baseball stadium.

Oh oops. I guess you're right. Shows you how much I know about baseball.

[edncc1701d]

here's a partial article from this week's Pittsburgh Business Times... SouthSide Works is finally building upon that empty corner across from Tusca... it's interesting to see this development continue on with a mix of wins (Hofbrauhaus, this new building) and losses (Z Gallerie, lack of credit for riverfront condos and hotel).

http://pittsburgh.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2009/04/13/story15.html

Shady Grove restaurant ‘perfect fit’ for SouthSide Works



I had posted a while back that someone told me Soffer was having trouble with the retail tenants at the SSW. I guess this problem is coming to fruition.
Anyways, I think the issue is that the SSW should not have attempted to be a retail destination. Like the rest of the South Side, it should have been an entertainment destination with neighborhood retail placed into the mixed use. Just imagine if the Z Gallery's former location was Trader Joe's or a Whole Foods. I think Soffer is recognizing this mistake and moving the SSW in a new direction. I am also sure the national economic situation didn't help as it has killed off many of the upscale retailers that propagated retail centers like the SSW.

[themaguffin]

I think that makes sense about the retail aspect on the southside.

However, in the current historic economic crisis, it's difficult to blame it on wrong location when retailers are struggling significantly nationally.

[Evergrey]

I disagree that Soffer should not have focused on retail... I think it's important for the urban core to have retail options as opposed to having to go out to the suburban malls for every single thing. Now, landing Sharper Image was probably a bad idea from the start... since it was basically a nonsense store. But most of the other losses aren't necessarily the fault of the development... but are symptoms of the severe economic contraction we're in. There's already a thousand bars and restaurants in the South Side... while I welcome the new bars and restaurants at SSW... I think it would be bad for the neighborhood and the city if SSW was just full-throttle "entertainment" instead of offering a mix of services and destinations.

[edncc1701d]

I disagree that Soffer should not have focused on retail... I think it's important for the urban core to have retail options as opposed to having to go out to the suburban malls for every single thing. Now, landing Sharper Image was probably a bad idea from the start... since it was basically a nonsense store. But most of the other losses aren't necessarily the fault of the development... but are symptoms of the severe economic contraction we're in. There's already a thousand bars and restaurants in the South Side... while I welcome the new bars and restaurants at SSW... I think it would be bad for the neighborhood and the city if SSW was just full-throttle "entertainment" instead of offering a mix of services and destinations.

Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit. It looks like Weiss House, a local Pittsburgh based upscale furnishing retailer is going to be moving into the Z Gallery location.

[bruchaus]

Sitting at the Pittsburgh Int. Airport on my way back to NYC. A few observations about the city: Three PNC looks beautiful! The view from the North Side is great and should provide a great new view from PNC Park. Checked out the Hofbrau Haus, 33 oz beers for cheap!!! I believe this place is gonna be a HUGE destination for Pittsburghers, my friend tells me it is packed on the weekend evenings and can hold up to 1000 people. Saw that Weiss House is moving into the SS Works, hope it does better than Z Gallerie, which I don't think I ever saw anything nice in.

[UrbaniDesDev]

Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit. It looks like Weiss House, a local Pittsburgh based upscale furnishing retailer is going to be moving into the Z Gallery location.

Thats a perfect fit!
I don't think the SSW should be exclusively entertainment. Carson Street is lined with clubs and bars that are already struggling. It needs to be a mix. Weiss House is a great fit.
The current economic problems are a part of the difficulty with retail there. It also has to do with the project being incomplete and it has been dragging out, along with the condition of Carson Street, finally being remedied.

If the new hotels, a few more condo/apt buildings and the finalising of American Eagle hqtrs were fast forwarded, I think we would still have Kenneth Cole etc.

I would prefer these types of retail to take hold Downtown anyway. Perhaps the new Fifth Avenue corridor will attract Kenneth Cole back, and maybe an Armani Exchange and a Banana ... across from Larrimors!

[hyperion1110]

Hello, first post, sorry i'm late for the party.

I just stumbled across this forum while bored and doing mindless searches on google. I have to say though, that i am now hooked. Very insightful and informative. I know consider myself in the know of what's being developed in the city. I no longer have to wonder aloud to my SO and annoy him when we drive past a dirt lot, or a pile of bricks.

I do have some opinions and questions, but i also have to admit that i have a limited vocabulary when it comes to development jargon.

My first question is any idea of what's going to be going in at the corner of Negley Run and East Liberty Blvd? I drive past it everyday for work and have noticed, after the 'beware: rat poison' sings, that what was once ugly red row houses is now pile of ugly red bricks (which i seen someone loading into a Home Depot cart)?

Also, i snapped a picture of the work going on to tear down that tower in East Liberty, i just now have to figure how to transfer it from my phone and post it.

I don't really have a clue what the answer to your question is, but welcome to the forum :cheers:

[MattofSloppyVariety]

Thank you for the welcome.

As for the SSW, i have always said that it would have benefited from some type of grocery. I live on the slopes and find the GE in the Flats disgusting and limited. Not saying that if they were to put in a grocery at SSW would be able to house everything, but it would have been nice to have had a one stop day if i wanted to. Go shopping, eat, see a movie, and grab some food for the house and go back up the slopes.

I have to say that it's horrendous to drive through there now, glad they are widening the road and all, but when i drive home at night from work, i hate having to sit at a light that never changes and wait for no cars to come. If there wasn't a city police officer sitting there, i would run the light. The addition of Dolce is a big headache too. You have no idea how many times i get stuck there because a limo is blocking the road waiting for someone to come out of there.

[Johnland]

Thank you for the welcome.

As for the SSW, i have always said that it would have benefited from some type of grocery. I live on the slopes and find the GE in the Flats disgusting and limited. Not saying that if they were to put in a grocery at SSW would be able to house everything, but it would have been nice to have had a one stop day if i wanted to. Go shopping, eat, see a movie, and grab some food for the house and go back up the slopes.



One thing I do have to give Tampa is that it has Publix, which is light years ahead of Giant Eagle and anything else in Pittsburgh. They know how to do a grocery store that is clean, well stocked, well-run, etc.

You are right. I does seem that vast urban areas of Pittsburgh are underserved by quality grocery stores. And they are such a basic, elemental building block of good urban living.

[JackStraw]

One thing I do have to give Tampa is that it has Publix, which is light years ahead of Giant Eagle and anything else in Pittsburgh. They know how to do a grocery store that is clean, well stocked, well-run, etc.

You are right. I does seem that vast urban areas of Pittsburgh are underserved by quality grocery stores. And they are such a basic, elemental building block of good urban living.

Have you ever been in the Giant Eagle Market districts? Shop N Save is crap, and many giant eagles are still the old designed stores like the ones here in S. Hill. However, the G.E.s that were built when I was gone and are called Market District Giant Eagles are pretty nice, and clean high quality. There is one in Shadyside, and most of the urban sprawl suburbs like Wexford. I never been to Tampa, so I don't know how good of a place you are comparing it too.

[Johnland]

Have you ever been in the Giant Eagle Market districts? Shop N Save is crap, and many giant eagles are still the old designed stores like the ones here in S. Hill. However, the G.E.s that were built when I was gone and are called Market District Giant Eagles are pretty nice, and clean high quality. There is one in Shadyside, and most of the urban sprawl suburbs like Wexford. I never been to Tampa, so I don't know how good of a place you are comparing it too.

Yeah, the Slop n Saves are pretty bad. I have to admit I haven't been to Market District Giant Eagle yet. The thing is, good grocery stores should evenly dispersed throughout a city so travel time is not too long if you don't happen to live in a lucky area.

[JackStraw]

Yeah, the Slop n Saves are pretty bad. I have to admit I haven't been to Market District Giant Eagle yet. The thing is, good grocery stores should evenly dispersed throughout a city so travel time is not too long if you don't happen to live in a lucky area.

Slop and Slave is what we called it when I worked at the one in Holiday Park that use to be a food Gallery. Market Districts are designed very well. Nice track lighting, and display lighting is used. They are clean, always well stocked, and even smell good. THen G.E. sells more high quality veggies, meats, and fish in them. The only one in the city I know is Shadyside. The other Giant Eagles in the city have very tight messy aisles, etc. They are worse than Slop and Slaves.

[PA Pride]

Gross Giant Eagle stores?

Like the "Dirty Bird" on the northside? :haha:

[gallacus]

I have to say that it's horrendous to drive through there now, glad they are widening the road and all, but when i drive home at night from work, i hate having to sit at a light that never changes and wait for no cars to come...

I live in the Slopes too, but NEVER take Carson to get anywhere. If you're coming back to the slopes from the East (Homestead) just veer left onto Sarah Street right before you get to Hot Metal and you miss all of the Carson St. madness!

[AaronPGH]

I bought my house two blocks from SSW when it was just a dirt field. I've been going there at least once a week for something, and I've watched it grow over the years.....so here's my take on it.

From the beginning I was skeptical of the retail that Soffer was bringing in. It was very middle-age, upper middle class suburbanite oriented. Unfortunately, these people already are shopping at the higher end malls near their houses, and why shouldn't they? There's free parking and more stores at their malls than SSW has to offer. Looking at it from their perspective, it makes total sense. Why should they drive into a city that confuses them, pay to park and have less shopping options? Personally, I hate the suburbs, but looking at it from their perspective, I get it. I'd do the same.

Sure, there are upper middle-class people living within the city limits...more urban professionals. But let's think about this. Do they actually live in the south side? No they don't. The vast majority of them live in the east end and have "graduated" from the college-leaning puke fest that is south side long ago. They moved to the east end to get away from the noise and the idiots (just like I am starting to want to do as every year goes on). AND, in the east end, they also have more options for this same retail than SSW has to offer. There are more high end furniture stores, restaurants, etc in the East End than you can shake a stick at....and there are about to be even more with the Bakery Square development happening.

So now we have pretty much eliminated most people ages 35-50 with money from shopping down there. Look at the stores that have gone out of business. They are all stores that targeted these people. Look at the stores that are slam packed with people and raking in money at SSW (H&M, Urban Outfitters, Forever 21).....who are they targeting? College students. Who lives closest to the SSW? College students. South Side & Oakland run right up to it.

Soffer miscalculated who would be shopping down here. He wasn't paying attention to what types of people lived around his development and in my opinion, bet too much on those people driving to SSW as a destination. This doesn't happen in Pittsburgh. I honestly think this is a good thing. Developers here need to start looking at the needs and wants of people in the neighborhoods they're building in. The last nail in the coffin for this style of retail in SSW was the fact that almost all of the high-end residential Soffer had planned for SSW hasn't even begun construction, lost financing, or is on hold. If all of that had been done before some of these stores opened, it may be a different story.

It was just bad planning. The way for him to make his development successful now is to give up his plan to try to lure in those people and their cars. It's not going to happen. If he starts to push it more college oriented, I think he'll succeed. SSW isn't a lost cause, but they need to take a hard look at who lives and works around there.

[PittPenn 03]

One thing I do have to give Tampa is that it has Publix, which is light years ahead of Giant Eagle and anything else in Pittsburgh. They know how to do a grocery store that is clean, well stocked, well-run, etc.
.

That actually isn't true anymore. Giant Eagles have come a long way and a lot of the bigger ones are actually light years ahead of Publix. I am getting fed up with their constant removing of national and local brands to push their store brands, but if you go to the bigger Giant Eagles and Market Districts they actually blow Publix out of the water now. The urban Giant Eagles are indeed often dirty, small and run down, but I think they are limited as to what they can do as I believe many are independently owned and take big hits on their bottom line from shop lifting. It would be nice if the corporation would help them out, but they probably view them as competition and hope their customers leave them for the corporate suburban locations on the edge of town.

I don't particularly think it is fair to compare our urban stores with booming city stores of the sunbelt and the west anyway. It is my guess that even the nicest new urban locations in these areas will eventually become even more run down than our stores and they are not built in urban environments that have 100+ year old neighborhoods around them. For us to get a lot of the stores people have in mind, sections of neighborhoods are going to have to take on characteristics of suburbs and I would rather have a little Pittsburgh grit than to pollute the neighborhoods with more "Lifestyle Centers". There most certainly are areas that can take these somewhat harmlessly in like Bakery Square, and taking over buildings like the one Whole Foods and Trader Joes did etc., but for the most part I think stores would want to tear down and build suburban modeled stores. There are a lot of dynamics at play here concerning shrinking population, suburban minded masses, and corporations reluctant in investing in urban properties. One big thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that in Pittsburgh and I am sure other similar older cities, a lot of these locations' customers do not have the option to get in their cars and drive to nicer locations. You have the elderly and people who do not or cannot afford to drive. They are stuck at these stores and the neighbors who can afford to get to other nicer stores often do. Meanwhile the neighborhood store gets pilfered by shop lifters and squeaks by on low income customers. Not only do these stores probably lack the funds to upgrade, there is not the incentive like there would be in a sunbelt sprawler where people just drive to the next nicer location if a store starts to go down hill. It is a cycle that I am sure would be had to break unless our economy really takes off and the city population starts growing again.

[Evergrey]

Quite the trenchant insight, AaronClark.

...

Re: Giant Eagle

I find Giant Eagle to be a thoroughly mediocre supermarket chain. Most of its locations in the city, and in more moderate-to-lower income suburbs, are in embarrassing condition (though as PittPenn03 pointed out, many of these are independently operated). The South Side Giant Eagle is pretty trashy... if I lived in the South Side... I'd still drive over to Market District.

Pittsburgh is the least competitive supermarket... uhh... market in the U.S.... with Giant Eagle having a virtual monopoly (Kroger pulled out in the 1980s). Giant Eagle's Market District concept is very nice... but I believe they only have three locations (thankfully, one is only a few minutes from me in the Shadyside/Bloomfield area). Market District is basically on par with Wegmen's, a Rochester, N.Y.-based supermarket chain that is often considered the best supermarket chain in the U.S.... and has locations in Erie, State College, and Eastern PA.

btw, Giant Eagle just ranked near the bottom in a new Consumer Reports ranking of major supermarket chains... at No. 46... Wal-Mart was last at No. 56. So while Market District is a dazzling food experience... the vast majority of Giant Eagle shoppers experience stores that range from mediocre to hellish.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/money/19169504/detail.html

Study Ranks Pittsburgh Grocery Stores, Generic Savings

Trader Joe's, Costco, Whole Foods Make The Top 10

POSTED: 5:24 pm EDT April 13, 2009
UPDATED: 6:31 pm EDT April 13, 2009

PITTSBURGH -- Which are the best grocery stores, according to shoppers?

The Consumer Reports National Research Center asked thousands of people, and several stores that operate in the Pittsburgh area made the list.

* No. 2: Trader Joe's
* No. 7: Costco
* No. 8: Whole Foods Market
* No. 14: Aldi
* No. 20: SuperTarget
* No. 29: Save-A-Lot
* No. 38: Sam's Club
* No. 41: IGA
* No. 46: Giant Eagle
* No. 56: Wal-Mart Supercenter

Rankings were based on service, perishables, price and cleanliness.

We want to hear from you! Share your comments in the "Add your comment" box at the bottom of this story.

To determine how to save the most money on an average trip to the store, Consumer Reports also tested four shopping methods:

* Impulse buying without considering price
* Coupons and savings card
* Warehouse club (Costco, etc.)
* Generic store brands

The study found store brands were less expensive than all of the other methods, and nearly half as cheap as impulse buying.

Call 4 Action reporter Aaron Saykin also did some comparison shopping, based on the Consumer Reports study.
Video: Watch Aaron Saykin's Comparison Report

Generic mouthwash was a little more than $3, while a name brand costs about $6.

Cheerios cereal was about $3.40, while the store brand was only about $2 -- and about 1 ounce larger.

In many cases, the ingredients on the labels are similar, if not identical. But is cheaper always better?

Store brands may not necessarily taste or look as good or use the same quality of ingredients as the real thing, but UPMC sports nutrition director Leslie Bonci said, "Nutritionally, they are identical. So nobody should ever feel that they're short-changing themselves in terms of the protein, the carbohydrate and the fiber. It's the same."

[PA Pride]

Giant Eagle is 32 places behind ALDI'S?!? Ouch!

[themaguffin]

The Giant Eagle city stores are trashy and while the Publix stores maybe newer in some cases, I know that some in Atlanta are not new, but are nicer than any city Giant Eagle.

Yes Pittsburgh does need some real competition. And I'm sorry but Aldi's is fucking gross. It's mostly garbage for sale in that store.

[Evergrey]

I don't like Aldi's at all... but it does have a devoted niche following... I assume it gets points for its supposed affordability and quirky business model.

[MattofSloppyVariety]

I'm not coming in from the east, i coming from Highland Park area, depending on the night of the week, i take a different stretch, my usual way home for Sunday to Wednesday is up Fifth to Birmingham Bridge, but then there are days that i need to run to the GE in Squirrel Hill and i have to go to Hot Metal. But party nights on the SS, i go across Bigelow Blvd to avoid it all and take 10th St.

I had a little birdie whisper to me that Forever 21 might just up and leave SSW. For a few reasons, Sofer is being difficult with the lease. F21 wants to move to a bigger space, but Sofer will not allow. And finally, F21 are looking to move into the Bakery Square development once completed. If the last one is true, chalk up another loss for SSW.

Oh, and i have to say, i heart Aldi's <3

[PittPenn 03]

I kind of have a feeling that Giant Eagle gets the score it does because of the that famous attitude we have around here where everything is better anywhere else. True there are a lot of mediocre Giant Eagles, but the big ones beyond the Market Districts like Waterworks are much better stocked and every bit as clean as any Publix or any grocery store I have ever been to for that matter. I would like to see some other chains come in and give GE a run for its money, but with us all being a slave to fuel perks and Pittsburgh being GE's HQ town, I doubt that happens.

[bruchaus]

I dunno, Publix is pretty nice. Not only that but the layout and selection and design inside each is much more appealing than the Iggle.

[PGHFan]

I live south of Atlanta. A Publix just closed in my neighborhood while the Kroger across the street in flourishing. Publix was certainly nice, but expensive. I also lived in DC. The city grocery stores were small, cramped, and not the cleanest. One Safeway had a checkout conveyor belt that was about a foot wide! i wondered why they bothered. Anyway, I suspect its tough to manage a city-based food market for many of the reasons already discussed

[cdc]

Does this make it better or worse?
Maybe they will draw attention away from the massive parking garage?


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09104/962769-100.stm

Jumbotrons sought for North Shore casino
Tuesday, April 14, 2009
By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Two large Jumbotrons may anchor the east and west ends of the Rivers Casino on the North Shore.

...

[Tombstoner]

To rank below IGA takes some real skill. Way to go GE!

Apropos of nothing... what does it say that Pittsburgh is overrun not only by GE but by Eat n' Park ferchrissake? Part of me likes the quirkiness of a place that keeps these timecapsules "alive" but when you're talking about something as basic as groceries, quirkiness loses some of its appeal.

[JackStraw]

Does this make it better or worse?
Maybe they will draw attention away from the massive parking garage?


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09104/962769-100.stm

Tacky. Just plain Tacky.

[JackStraw]

To rank below IGA takes some real skill. Way to go GE!

Apropos of nothing... what does it say that Pittsburgh is overrun not only by GE but by Eat n' Park ferchrissake? Part of me likes the quirkiness of a place that keeps these timecapsules "alive" but when you're talking about something as basic as groceries, quirkiness loses some of its appeal.

I honestly think this grocery store thing is getting over analyzed. I don't want to have Whole Foods as being the only option of good food like in Denver. Philly and Denver both had about the same amount of grocery chains. King Soopers and Safeway in Denver were on par with G.E. and Slop and Save. The quality of stores varied upon neighborhoods just like here. Whole foods was in Cherry Creek, and "THe unsafeway" was were I lived.

Saying Pittsburgh is overrun by GE and Eat N' park is stretching it. Both Philly and Denver has their grocery chains and diner chains. The most funniest thing, is they are all owned by the same people across the nation, and just change the name. Pittsburgh is far from being overrun by chains.

[UrbaniDesDev]

it' simpl. The old GEs are trashy and the new ones are clean and roomy. I lived in Miami, Atlanta & DC. The Publix in old, poorer neighborhoods are fairly trashy. The ones in newer more affluent trendy neighborhoods have sushi, etc. It usually just reflects the neighborhoods they are in. I see little difference in the 2. It refelcts on how many people are paying with ACCESS cards.

[Johnland]

I don't particularly think it is fair to compare our urban stores with booming city stores of the sunbelt and the west anyway. It is my guess that even the nicest new urban locations in these areas will eventually become even more run down than our stores and they are not built in urban environments that have 100+ year old neighborhoods around them.

Actually, in South Tampa where I live, Publix has embarked on an aggressive expansion. South Tampa is sort of the 'East End' of Tampa - very close to Downtown, several very nice neighborhoods meshed tightly together forming what is generally called 'South Tampa' - Hyde Park, Virginia Park, Palma Ceia, Beach Park, Sunset Park, Maryland Manor to name the more significant. Older sections date back to the 1890's, while most of the rest is mainly Pre-War or just Post-War. It's very dense for Tampa and would be classed as urban by most folks on this site.

Publix just took over an old Alberstons and converted it to a great new Publix. This is in addition to two other existing stores nearby. In addition to these three, just over in Hyde Park, they just opened a GreenWise Publix, which specializes in organic and gourmet foods. On a tight urban lot, they built the store on ground level, with parking above. There's also a Publix on Bayshore Blvd another 20 blocks away. So all in all, there are five great Publix's in just South Tampa. They are aggressive and savvy about getting into the right locations and making sure you're never far from a Publix. So rather than letting the city market go untapped, they are courting it with everything they've got. When I lived in Oakland, there was one run-down GE on centre Ave (now long gone I'm sure), complete with the cop and the German Shepard to run security. Oakland's only other grocery store was the other sorry GE way over on Forbes Ave near Mercy Hospital (also gone I'm sure). Today, I don't think is a single grocery store within Oakland.

You make a good point about older urban areas being naturally ill-suited to the standard suburban model. I feel the time has come for a return of the neighborhood grocer. I see it as a hybrid of a supermarket and a conveince store. Smaller, more numerous groceries would enhance urban livability.

[Evergrey]

A small grocer opened on Forbes Ave in Oakland last year... It's on the second floor of the building that used to house Club Laga... I think it's about 5,000 sq. ft.... but it's crammed with goods and I think it had just about everything you would need (though perhaps lacking in some fancy luxuries)... such as fresh meat, produce, baked goods, cheese, deli, etc. It's an IGA

http://www.popcitymedia.com/developmentnews/iga0613.aspx

[DBR96A]

The new, suburban Giant Eagles are every bit as nice as any Publix I've ever been in.

[hyperion1110]

I suppose as a north sider, I can be said to have somewhat lower standards when it comes to supermarkets. With that said:

1) There is not a thing wrong with any Giant Eagle I have been to. Sure, some have better stocks of veggies and whatnot than others. But, the truth of the matter is that most people go into a supermarket for eggs, milk, and cereal; they are not standing there comparing the mangos to the great Platonic Form of the Mango they have in their minds. As long as I can get what I need form the place, I don't really care.

2) Anyone who criticizes the allure of Eat n' Park either a) never went to college within 200 miles of Pittsburgh, and/or b) doesn't have a clue what being a Pittsburgher really means. I submit that most people in this city are not looking for something incredibly fancy when having a meal. They're looking for a place with decent food at a decent price. And, guess what, Eat n' Park fits the bill. What's more, it's a part of Pittsburgh. In the tiniest way, it helps form our collective culture, far more so than "venerable" Pittsburgh institutions like Primanti Bros.

So long as I am alive, I will continue to proudly patronize both Giant Eagle and Eat n' Park. Moreover, I will choose those places over their equivalent extra-regional equivalents, because I ardently refuse to embrace the notion of nationalization/globalization at the expense of my city and region. I categorically reject the homogeneity that is implicit in welcoming Walmart and Publix (what a stupid name) in place of local grocers.

Despite the current rant, I am not small-minded, insular, xenophobic, or provincial. I just don't care if the mangos at the national chain are genetically engineered to be 2.3 microns larger than regular. And I surely don't care where I get my fish sandwich. As long as the mango is a mango and the fish sandwich is a fish sandwich, who cares?! I am not deprived because I shop and eat at local businesses.

In closing, I have three points:

1) The grass is not always greener on the other side;
2) I've been to Wegmen's, and it is nothing more than a dark Walmart supercenter with wood paneling;
3) And lastly, most importantly, this is a really, really dumb discussion.

[Vette60]

Hey - regarding the Pottery Barn moving, I'd love to see the return of the Balcony - was in high school during the it's run and loved heading over there to listen to the Balcony Big Band. Got to meet some of regulars in the Band thru my Jazz Instructor...still have a couple of their CDs...anyway, it's wishful thinking...


Pittsburgh is the least competitive supermarket... uhh... market in the U.S.... with Giant Eagle having a virtual monopoly (Kroger pulled out in the 1980s). Giant Eagle's Market District concept is very nice... but I believe they only have three locations (thankfully, one is only a few minutes from me in the Shadyside/Bloomfield area). Market District is basically on par with Wegmen's, a Rochester, N.Y.-based supermarket chain that is often considered the best supermarket chain in the U.S.... and has locations in Erie, State College, and Eastern PA.


I miss Wegmens - lived in the Lehigh Valley and LOVED going there...my wife and I found that for general stuff their prices were a little higher but for specialty items, fresh foods you couldn't beat their quality and selection...

As far as Iggle is concerned, I don't think their stores are too bad...my folks live in Brentwood and the new store that was built there is pretty nice - I love the fact that they have a Bakery - that is something I miss from Wegmen's - tougher to find here in Richmond...

We have Kroger's, Food Lion, and local chain Ukrops. Ukrops is kinda a smaller version of Wegmens - not quite as large a store, not as big as selection, but still pretty nice. Interesting business model for the family - closed on Sundays and they don't sell beer/wine or tobacco products. Krogers on the other hand in their newer stores has a huge beer/wine selection including Wine Stewards in some stores...

Thanks for the excellent updates! Won't be back home until July 4th weekend...

Randy

[Evergrey]

as a north sider...

1) There is not a thing wrong with any Giant Eagle I have been to.

As a North Sider... have you ever been to the only Giant Eagle located within the city's North Side? The one on Cedar Avenue... you know... the one whose independent operator regularly sold expired products and spoiled meat? (Giant Eagle corporate took it over last year)



2) Anyone who criticizes the allure of Eat n' Park either a) never went to college within 200 miles of Pittsburgh, and/or b) doesn't have a clue what being a Pittsburgher really means. I submit that most people in this city are not looking for something incredibly fancy when having a meal. They're looking for a place with decent food at a decent price. And, guess what, Eat n' Park fits the bill. What's more, it's a part of Pittsburgh. In the tiniest way, it helps form our collective culture, far more so than "venerable" Pittsburgh institutions like Primanti Bros.


This is a rather absurd absolutist statement. So in order to be a real Pittsburgher, one must eat bland diner-esque food frequently at your favorite regional family restaurant chain (hey, what about King's!?). BTW, if you hadn't noticed... Eat N Park overhauled their menu a few years ago in an attempt to "upscale" it with fancy things like walnut cranberry chicken salads and whatnot... a bad idea IMO! And while Eat N Park may be instrumental in forming the collective suburbanite culture... they only have two locations in the City of Pittsburgh (one in a rather suburban-esque location on Banksville Road)... so I would submit that Primanti's still plays a bigger role in informing the collective culture of urban Pittsburgh.


Despite the current rant, I am not small-minded, insular, xenophobic, or provincial.

Thanks for clarifying. :haha:



2) I've been to Wegmen's, and it is nothing more than a dark Walmart supercenter with wood paneling;


Gee, I guess that's why Wegman's was ranked No. 1 and WalMart Supercenter was ranked last in that Consumer Reports survey.


3) And lastly, most importantly, this is a really, really dumb discussion.

and yet you wrote the longest, most detailed, most passionate response to the discussion :shrug:




Ukrops is kinda a smaller version of Wegmens - not quite as large a store, not as big as selection, but still pretty nice. Interesting business model for the family - closed on Sundays and they don't sell beer/wine or tobacco products. Krogers on the other hand in their newer stores has a huge beer/wine selection including Wine Stewards in some stores...



Hey now... discussion of supermarkets' beer/wine selections is irrelevant to this topic... since, you know... Pennsylvania bans that sorta thing

[Evergrey]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09105/962843-454.stm

State grants boost 12 regional projects

Plans to provide thousands of jobs

Wednesday, April 15, 2009
By James O'Toole, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Playing Santa in Easter season, Gov. Ed Rendell came to Pittsburgh yesterday to announce state capital budget grants for a dozen projects in the region that he boasted would provide thousands of construction jobs and more than 1,000 permanent positions.

The projects range from a mixed-use industrial and office complex near the Pittsburgh International Airport to a YMCA in the Hill District. The funds were generated by a state bond issue authorized by the state's Redevelopment Capitol Assistance Program.

In a news conference in the Allegheny County Courthouse, the governor was joined by County Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl.

Noting that the state had made the selections of favored projects with the advice of the two local officials, Mr. Rendell advised disappointed applicants, "it's not my fault," while adding that, "For those of you who are getting grants today, I have the final say."

Mr. Rendell said that the state funds would help attract roughly $476 million in total private investment to the selected projects. He said that all of the projects were selected with an eye toward their economic development potential.

The full list of projects comprised:

• $2 million to help turn 300 acres of formerly strip-mined land in Findlay into the Chapman Commerce Center, a mixed-use industrial park.

• $4 million for a retail and residential development along the Port Authority's LRT line.

• $4 million to help build an 849-space parking garage as part of the $115 million Bakery Square project, in Pittsburgh's Larimer neighborhood.

• $3 million for the Lysle Boulevard mixed-use development to connect the nearby main public roadway with RIDC Industrial Center of McKeesport.

• $3 million to help build a new, nearly 43,000-square-foot YMCA in the Hill District.

• $2.5 million for infrastructure improvements that will help continue progress on the Oak Hill mixed-income housing development in the Hill District.

• $2 million for traffic improvements in the East Liberty neighborhood that will help restore the traditional street grid disrupted during controversial redevelopment efforts a generation ago.

• $2 million for renovation costs for the Garden Theater building in the North Side.

• $1.5 million to continue developing the August Wilson Center for African American Culture.

• $1 million for renovations that will transform George Westinghouse's original air brake factory into a new home for the Pittsburgh Opera.

• $1 million for improvements at Heinz Hall.

• $1 million to convert the Monroeville ExpoMart into office space while transforming the former Wickes Furniture building into a 102,000-square-foot convention center that will also house the Convention and Visitors Bureau of Greater Monroeville.
Politics Editor James O'Toole can be reached at jotoole@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1562.

[themaguffin]

People are getting irrational.

This has NOTHING to with grass being greener or "Pittsburghers thinking that something else is always better"

Look, it's wonderful that the dominent chain in Pgh is a locally headquarted business. However, the lack of competition does make businesses lazy.

Yes the have the few Market stores where competition mattered, but just because they are local etc does not mean that one can't call them out if a store is not clean, nice or lacks on something.

Publix is generally nicer. But some Kroger stores are very nice and some are not. When I moved to Atlanta, we had Harris Teeter stores which were nicer than any other chain here, but they pulled out.

[JackStraw]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09105/962843-454.stm

State grants boost 12 regional projects

Plans to provide thousands of jobs

Wednesday, April 15, 2009
By James O'Toole, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Playing Santa in Easter season, Gov. Ed Rendell came to Pittsburgh yesterday to announce state capital budget grants for a dozen projects in the region that he boasted would provide thousands of construction jobs and more than 1,000 permanent positions.

The projects range from a mixed-use industrial and office complex near the Pittsburgh International Airport to a YMCA in the Hill District. The funds were generated by a state bond issue authorized by the state's Redevelopment Capitol Assistance Program.

In a news conference in the Allegheny County Courthouse, the governor was joined by County Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl.

Noting that the state had made the selections of favored projects with the advice of the two local officials, Mr. Rendell advised disappointed applicants, "it's not my fault," while adding that, "For those of you who are getting grants today, I have the final say."

Mr. Rendell said that the state funds would help attract roughly $476 million in total private investment to the selected projects. He said that all of the projects were selected with an eye toward their economic development potential.

The full list of projects comprised:

• $2 million to help turn 300 acres of formerly strip-mined land in Findlay into the Chapman Commerce Center, a mixed-use industrial park.

• $4 million for a retail and residential development along the Port Authority's LRT line.

• $4 million to help build an 849-space parking garage as part of the $115 million Bakery Square project, in Pittsburgh's Larimer neighborhood.

• $3 million for the Lysle Boulevard mixed-use development to connect the nearby main public roadway with RIDC Industrial Center of McKeesport.

• $3 million to help build a new, nearly 43,000-square-foot YMCA in the Hill District.

• $2.5 million for infrastructure improvements that will help continue progress on the Oak Hill mixed-income housing development in the Hill District.

• $2 million for traffic improvements in the East Liberty neighborhood that will help restore the traditional street grid disrupted during controversial redevelopment efforts a generation ago.

• $2 million for renovation costs for the Garden Theater building in the North Side.

• $1.5 million to continue developing the August Wilson Center for African American Culture.

• $1 million for renovations that will transform George Westinghouse's original air brake factory into a new home for the Pittsburgh Opera.

• $1 million for improvements at Heinz Hall.

• $1 million to convert the Monroeville ExpoMart into office space while transforming the former Wickes Furniture building into a 102,000-square-foot convention center that will also house the Convention and Visitors Bureau of Greater Monroeville.
Politics Editor James O'Toole can be reached at jotoole@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1562.

Finally, a good post within the mists of all this grocery store jibber jabber:)

These are all excellent projects. I don't know which ones I like best. I love the Garden Theater project, as that can finally bring some reverberation to the North Side. I love the Light Rail development. Maybe Pittsburgher's will finally get the feel of living in condos next to rail lines for easy access downtown. Restoring the grid in E. Liberty sounds awesome. I have mixed feelings on the Moronville Projects. I never even know the Expo mart was closed.................... I just feel it contributes more to the damn job sprawl that plagues every city.

[hyperion1110]

As a North Sider... have you ever been to the only Giant Eagle located within the city's North Side? The one on Cedar Avenue... you know... the one whose independent operator regularly sold expired products and spoiled meat? (Giant Eagle corporate took it over last year)



This is a rather absurd absolutist statement. So in order to be a real Pittsburgher, one must eat bland diner-esque food frequently at your favorite regional family restaurant chain (hey, what about King's!?). BTW, if you hadn't noticed... Eat N Park overhauled their menu a few years ago in an attempt to "upscale" it with fancy things like walnut cranberry chicken salads and whatnot... a bad idea IMO! And while Eat N Park may be instrumental in forming the collective suburbanite culture... they only have two locations in the City of Pittsburgh (one in a rather suburban-esque location on Banksville Road)... so I would submit that Primanti's still plays a bigger role in informing the collective culture of urban Pittsburgh.



Thanks for clarifying. :haha:




Gee, I guess that's why Wegman's was ranked No. 1 and WalMart Supercenter was ranked last in that Consumer Reports survey.



and yet you wrote the longest, most detailed, most passionate response to the discussion :shrug:

An exercise for the reader:

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.

[PittPenn 03]

I do not want to sound too snarky here (cannot help myself), but there was a time before we became a nation of connoisseurs and gourmands sometime in the early 90's I think, and Eat-n-Park was considered a decent place to eat for a good portion of the local population. I too consider it important to Pittsburgh.

I can remember at least one other urban location which was on Penn Avenue in what must have been Garfield or Friendship (or Highland Park or East Liberty - not sure where the lines are there). It was probably where those new modern townhouses are now. I had a few morning after recovery breakfasts there. I am not sure when it closed down, but I know it was there probably at least until 1995. I would also consider the Dormont location to be more urban in nature and if I remember correctly there was one at the end of the Highlevel Bridge in Homestead that would also have had an urban feel. This would lead me to believe that there were probably others that I cannot remember or never knew of their existence.

[pj3000]

2) I've been to Wegmen's, and it is nothing more than a dark Walmart supercenter with wood paneling;


Well, that just goes to show that you haven't been to a Wegmans.

You may very well have been to a "Wegmen's", but definitely not a Wegmans.

[pj3000]

Hey now... discussion of supermarkets' beer/wine selections is irrelevant to this topic... since, you know... Pennsylvania bans that sorta thing

Wegmans beer selection (at the Erie stores at least) is incredible. All sorts of micros, Belgians, and various imports. It's a beautiful thing to see a few aisles in the cafe area with nothing but six packs. you can even drink 'em there (in the cafe area) of course. But, it's only a matter of time before I sneak a beer into the grocery area and sip fine pale ale while I shop... just to stick it to PA's Mormon-like laws!

[Tombstoner]

A small grocer opened on Forbes Ave in Oakland last year... It's on the second floor of the building that used to house Club Laga... I think it's about 5,000 sq. ft.... but it's crammed with goods and I think it had just about everything you would need (though perhaps lacking in some fancy luxuries)... such as fresh meat, produce, baked goods, cheese, deli, etc. It's an IGA

http://www.popcitymedia.com/developmentnews/iga0613.aspx

I checked this out a couple months ago when I was in town. It has the feel of a large convenience store with similar prices (for the few things I was looking for, at least). Although there's an elevator to the second floor, it makes more sense to use the stairs but that also contributes to the sense that it is not very "open" to the street. Produce was very limited. It competes better with a CVS rather than a GE.

[PA Pride]

Transit Oriented Development (TOD) in south hills!


Office building at South Hills Village gets go-ahead
Wednesday, April 15, 2009
By Jon Schmitz, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://post-gazette.com/pg/09105/962997-100.stm

Work is expected to begin this fall on a $25 million medical-professional building on a former park-n-ride lot at the South Hills Village light-rail station.

A committee of the Port Authority board today endorsed a 52-year lease with the project developer, Lauth Property Group of Indianapolis. The company will lease the site for $131,500 per year for the first 10 years, with an escalator clause taking effect after that. Spokesman Jim Ritchie said the authority will get more than $8 million over the life of the lease and pay nothing toward the construction cost.

The authority board approved leasing the 6.4-acre site in 2007, but the project has been on hold pending final lease negotiations and federal approval.

The buildings, whose developers will seek LEED "green" certification, will be linked by a walking path to the light-rail station. Also at the site is a 2,200-space parking garage that the authority opened at South Hills Village in May 2005.

Construction is expected to take 18 months to two years, Mr. Ritchie said.


First published on April 15, 2009 at 2:00 pm

[UrbaniDesDev]

When i was in Philly a few months ago, they sold beer in the Grocery stores.

How is that possible there?

It's time to change Pa's ridiculous strangle-hold on liquor here.

State Stores!? How absurd is this?

The grocer in Oakland is a Bodega

[pj3000]

When i was in Philly a few months ago, they sold beer in the Grocery stores.

How is that possible there?


They do in Erie as well. Statewide, only Wegmans grocery stores are able to sell beer. They recently broke through PA's ridiculous laws. Basically, they operate like a restaurant/bar (you can't buy more than 192 oz. at a time - 2 six-packs). And you have to buy the beer at a designated register in the cafe area, which is somewhat separate from the store (just a couple of non-connected railings "separate" the cafe area). You can drink beer in the cafe area, too.

And, the beer selection is among the best I've seen. It sucks that Pittsburgh is basically the only area in the state that doesn't have Wegmans. Aside from the Market District stores, most Giant Eagles in Pittsburgh are crappy and overpriced (to pay for their FuelPerks program). In fact, Pittsburgh has to be the worst locale in PA for grocery stores in general. Shop n' Save, Foodland...

[MattofSloppyVariety]

There was a Sheetz in Altoona that had sold beer breifly, but the local residents raised a huge stink and filed complaints and Sheetz was revoked their right.

[hyperion1110]

Well, that just goes to show that you haven't been to a Wegmans.

You may very well have been to a "Wegmen's", but definitely not a Wegmans.

Sure I have...I've even got the dent in my car to prove it. Some little snot in Ithaca was playing around with a cart in your glorious "Wegmans" and hit my car.

Anyhow, thanks for being a peach and posting something remarkably irrelevant and childish.

[tooluther]

The President is on CNN right now talking about High Speed Rail. He hasn't gotten to specifics yet; but I caught a glimpse of the board behind him and it doesn't look like the Pittsburgh-Philly line is on it :(

[bruchaus]

The President is on CNN right now talking about High Speed Rail. He hasn't gotten to specifics yet; but I caught a glimpse of the board behind him and it doesn't look like the Pittsburgh-Philly line is on it :(

This is something that could really help our nation. High Speed Rails all across the northeast would really help the area out. Pittsburgh to Philly, Pittsburgh - NYC, Pittsburgh - DC, I really think people would be willing to ride trains again, especially if a PGH-Phill trip lasted only a few hours, or PGH to NYC instead of 10 hrs, it would be nice to ride for maybe 5.

[Tombstoner]

Sure I have...I've even got the dent in my car to prove it. Some little snot in Ithaca was playing around with a cart in your glorious "Wegmans" and hit my car.

Anyhow, thanks for being a peach and posting something remarkably irrelevant and childish.

not everyone has the laser-like mind and sophistication your recent posts reveal. ;)

[themaguffin]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/rail_map_blog.jpg

[PA Pride]

The President is on CNN right now talking about High Speed Rail. He hasn't gotten to specifics yet; but I caught a glimpse of the board behind him and it doesn't look like the Pittsburgh-Philly line is on it :(

No way tooluther! The "keystone corridor" was specifically mentioned in all the articles i read. This is good news!

[themaguffin]

Since my post was apparently at the bottom of the last page, here it is again:


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/rail_map_blog.jpg

[PA Pride]

Thanks maguffin. Here's a another map from the washington post:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/07/GR2009030702656.jpg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/07/GR2009030702656.html

[Evergrey]

Thanks maguffin. Here's a another map from the washington post:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/07/GR2009030702656.jpg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/07/GR2009030702656.html

so they have envisioned this sprawling network that extends all the way from Houston to Montreal... yet they can't link up the Northeast and Midwest via the 120 miles from Pittsburgh to Cleveland? Pittsburgh should be seen as the key hub connecting these two regions instead of some distant outpost on the terminus of the Keystone line. There is also the potential of connecting Washington DC to the Midwest via Pittsburgh. And maybe if HSR really takes off, we could see an Ohio Valley line heading to Columbus, Cincinnati, Louisville, St. Louis. And one heading north to Erie, Buffalo and Toronto.

What's the point in thinking small with these fragments? Link up Pittsburgh and Cleveland and get a Nationwide HSR system going.

Little Rock to Dallas!?!?!? But not Pittsburgh to Cleveland (and hence Northeast to Midwest, NYC to Chicago)???
...

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/breaking/s_620929.html

Obama plan would link Pittsburgh to East Coast by high-speed rail

By staff and wire reports Thursday, April 16, 2009
Last updated: 1:20 pm

A high-speed rail corridor would traverse Pennsylvania and link Pittsburgh to the East Coast under a nationwide strategic plan President Barack Obama announced today.

Obama called for the country to move swiftly to a system of high-speed rail travel, saying it will relieve congestion, help clean the air and save on energy.

Appearing with Vice President Joe Biden and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, Obama said the country cannot afford not to invest in a major upgrade to rail travel. He said he understands it necessarily will be "a long-term project" but said the time to start is now.

The president allocated $8 billion in the enormous $787 billion economic stimulus spending package for a start on establishing high-speed rail corridors nationwide.

Obama said, "This is not some fanciful, pie-in-the-sky vision of the future. It's happening now. The problem is, it's happening elsewhere." He cited superior high-speed rail travel in countries like China, Japan, France and Spain.

The rail upgrades are critically needed, Obama said, because the nation's highways and airways "are clogged with traffic."

The money will go not only to high-speed rail development but also to a parallel effort to improve rail service along existing lines — upgrades that would allow faster train travel.

The White House said funding will move into the rail system through three channels, first to upgrade projects already approved and only in need of funding, thus providing jobs in the short term. The second and third would focus on high-speed rail planning and then a commitment to help in the execution of those plans far into the future when the stimulus funds are no longer available.

Transportation Department officials say about six proposed routes with federal approval for high-speed rail stand a good chance of getting some of the $8 billion award. The spurs include parts of Texas, Florida, the Chicago region, and southeast routes through North Carolina and Louisiana.

The U.S. Federal Railroad Administration says the term high-speed rail applies to trains traveling more than 90 mph. The European Union standard is above 125 mph.

Many overseas bullet trains — most powered by overhead electricity lines — run faster than that. In France, for example, the TGV ("Train a Grande Vitesse") covers the 250 miles between Paris and Lyon in one hour, 55 minutes at an average speed of about 133 mph.

In Japan, which opened the first high-speed rail in the 1960s and carries more passengers than any other country, the Japanese Shinkansen trains hurtle through the countryside at an average of about 180 mph.

Super-fast trains also run in Germany, Spain and China, at speeds up to 140 mph, according to a 2007 survey in the trade publication Railway Gazette.

The only rail service that qualifies under America's lower high-speed standard is Amtrak's 9-year-old Acela Express route connecting Boston to Washington, D.C.

The trains are built to reach speeds up to 150 mph, but only average about 80 mph because of curving tracks and slower-moving freight and passenger trains that share the route. On the densely traveled line from New York City to the nation's capital, the Acela arrives just about 20 minutes earlier than standard service, at more than twice the cost during peak travel times.

Ten corridors the Obama administration had identified for possible high-speed rail projects:

• California corridor (Bay Area, Sacramento, Los Angeles, San Diego)

• Pacific Northwest corridor (Eugene, Portland, Tacoma, Seattle, Vancouver British Columbia)

• South Central corridor (Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Dallas/Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio, Little Rock)

• Gulf Coast corridor (Houston, New Orleans, Mobile, Birmingham, Atlanta)

• Chicago hub network (Chicago, Milwaukee, Twin Cities, St. Louis, Kansas City, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville)

• Florida corridor (Orlando, Tampa, Miami)

• Southeast corridor (Washington, Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Macon, Columbia, Savannah, Jacksonville)

• Keystone corridor (Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh)

• Empire corridor (New York City, Albany, Buffalo)

• Northern New England corridor (Boston, Montreal, Portland, Springfield, New Haven, Albany)

[DBR96A]

Thanks maguffin. Here's a another map from the washington post:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/07/GR2009030702656.jpg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/03/07/GR2009030702656.html

Sweet! Let's just keep Pennsylvania detached from the rest of the country! Never mind that you actually have to go through it to get from the Northeast to the Midwest, and vice versa...

I bet you the Keystone Corridor will be the last to get funded too.

[themaguffin]

I would even say that the missing link will harm the success as significant Great Lakes traffic from the east coast to NYC will not be possible.

And this additional traffic would boost the PA line as well.

[pj3000]

An exercise for the reader:

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.

Ahh, such profound ironic logic from the Northside...

Considering Evergrey successfully refuted each of your claims, you should follow that precise advice. Or, maybe you acknowledge that and the comment was aimed at yourself, and we're to think Evergrey is the target of such wisdom, or maybe no one really cares either way and feels that you should just not cross the Allegheny, so as not to spoil the party for the rest of us.

[pj3000]

I would even say that the missing link will harm the success as significant Great Lakes traffic from the east coast to NYC will not be possible.

And this additional traffic would boost the PA line as well.

Yeah, why would they leave out that segment between Buffalo and Cleveland? Oh yeah, because Erie's there... and it's destined to dwindle to a small village. Seriously, I know that it's proposed in segments, but why favor small dead-end segments to Mobile, AL and Duluth, MN rather than connect major cities (via a Buffalo-Cleveland line and a Pittsburgh-Columbus or Cleveland line) in the Northeast and Midwest?

[themaguffin]

Pittsburgh would be the priority direction as it is a bigger market and the line goes directly to Philly/Corridor.

It's not a slight on Erie and Erie should be part of a line as well, but it was not what I was referring to about a missing link.

[Evergrey]

perhaps we'll have to rely on the proposed Ohio Hub HSR network to connect Pittsburgh and the Northeast to the Midwest. Unfortunately, that would probably give Cleveland HSR hub status over Pittsburgh, as Cleveland is designated the Ohio Hub... uh... hub. The 3-C line (Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati) is the top priority... while these might not be the most important cities to connect... it's obvious from a political standpoint since this is a State of Ohio project. However, Pittsburgh is included on a list of routes of secondary importance... Pittsburgh is connected to Cleveland (probably via Youngstown, which is currently sidestepped by Amtrak's Capitol Limited). On a lower priority, Ohio Hub also maps out a Pittsburgh-Columbus line.

http://www.allaboardohio.org/cms/images/uploads/Map1.jpg

http://www.allaboardohio.org/cms/images/uploads/Map2.jpg

http://www.allaboardohio.org/cms/images/uploads/Map3.jpg

The State of Ohio, much like the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, can be incredibly backward on so many things... so kudos to Ohio for being forward-thinking concerning HSR.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/divisions/rail/Pages/default.aspx

http://209.51.133.155/cms/index.php/content/hubplan

[Grego43]

Has there been any discussion of which technologies would be used? I would hope that for economies of scale and the eventual connecting of dots regionally & nationally that compatible power plants, electrification, & signaling would be utilized.

[Tombstoner]

Were this initiative to really take off, I can't believe that the necessity of linking Pittsburgh with Cleveland won't become overwhelming apparent pretty quickly. If HSR takes off in the Midwest and/or the East Coast this gap stick out like a sore thumb.

[pj3000]

Pittsburgh would be the priority direction as it is a bigger market and the line goes directly to Philly/Corridor.

It's not a slight on Erie and Erie should be part of a line as well, but it was not what I was referring to about a missing link.

Oh, of course. Erie, itself, really has nothing to do with it (only mentioned it due to hometown bias). It just happens to be right in the middle of the line that seems to be missing that would link the midwest to New York and New England (i.e., the missing segment between Buffalo and Cleveland). It wasn't about priority between Pittsburgh and Erie at all.

My overall point was that, lines terminating at Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Buffalo simply do not seem to make much sense, especially for high-speed rail travel. Like I said earlier, why propose terminating spur lines of a high-speed rail system to Duluth and Mobile, but not connect the major population centers of the US (via Buffalo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh) with the same mileage of rail????

[UrbaniDesDev]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/rail_map_blog.jpg

It is exciting to think about...
but, who did this layout. It must be political. It seems completely arbitrary to me. Are these just political favors being handed out, and not real proposals? It's unbelievable to me that they don't recognize that the line from NYC to Chicago is the "Pennsylvanian", historically the most crowded, outside of the East Coast Corridor, back when people took long distance rail travel. They aren't even connecting Jacksonville to Miami, undoubtedly, that would be a major link for East coast travel. It really makes me think that this is not well thought out and a lot of air. It's not like people have not been contemplating this concept for decades.

The success of this will depend on connecting the top metropolitan areas in the country. NYC and the East Coast Corridor, Chicago, Atlanta and indirectly connecting as many secondary cities as possible. All these odd spurs flying around... What's that about?

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/LightRailPlan.jpg

[Evergrey]

Like I said earlier, why propose terminating spur lines of a high-speed rail system to Duluth and Mobile, but not connect the major population centers of the US (via Buffalo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh) with the same mileage of rail????

Same mileage? Try less. Pittsburgh-Cleveland is shorter than Minneapolis-Duluth, Mobile-New Orleans... and almost 1/3 the length of Dallas-Little Rock (WTF!). Not only that... but Pittsburgh-Cleveland can be thought of as a "mini-megalopolis"... there's almost a constant urbanized corridor from Pittsburgh to Cleveland... and those two major metros combined with other metros near or along the route (Youngstown-Warren-Sharon, New Castle, WV's Northern Panhandle, Canton, Akron) add up to about 7 million people. Sometimes I hear people refer to Pittsburgh as "isolated"... sure, maybe compared to the very unusual example of BosWash... but it exists in one of the most densely populated corridors in the U.S. It's also the first major metro as you move westward from the East Coast megalopolis... that's gotta count for something strategically!


...

btw, here's another useless line... Raleigh-Columbia-Savannah-Jacksonville

Raleigh (1.0 mil) - 225 miles to
Columbia (0.7 mil) - 160 miles to
Savannah (0.3 mil) - 140 miles to
Jacksonville (1.3 mil)

total length: 525 miles
total population: 3.3 mil

Now, this sparsely populated line might make sense if it led to South Florida... but as currently envisioned, it terminates in Jacksonville. This is over 4X the length of the Pittsburgh-Cleveland gap and serves less than half the population. Raleigh has a lofty reputation, but I bet most people would be shocked to know it's smaller than Akron/Canton (1.1 mil). Columbia is essentially a Youngstown and Savannah is essentially a Wheeling/Steubenville.

If we can build all sorts of crazy lines connecting distantly spaced minor cities in the Southeast... why can't we connect the nation's two largest collections of major cities in the Northeast and Midwest via the short Pittsburgh-Cleveland link?

[Evergrey]

more on HSR

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_621034.html

Obama pitches $13B high-speed rail plan linking Pittsburgh with East Coast

By Matthew Santoni, TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Friday, April 17, 2009

Pittsburgh could be connected to the East Coast by high-speed passenger rail under a $13 billion proposal President Obama detailed Thursday.

The administration will use $8 billion from the economic stimulus package to offer grants for improving speed and service on existing rail lines. Obama wants Congress to provide another $1 billion a year for five years to pay for planning for 100- to 600-mile-long intercity rail corridors to accommodate trains traveling up to 150 mph.

"High-speed rail is long overdue, and this plan lets American travelers know they are not doomed to a future of long lines at the airports or jammed cars on the highways," said Obama, who announced his plan during a news conference with Vice President Joe Biden and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

The plan calls for Pittsburgh to become the western terminus of the Keystone Corridor, which would connect at Philadelphia to the Washington-to-Boston Northeast Corridor — the country's only existing high-speed rail line under the Federal Railroad Administration's definitions.

Each week, 158 Amtrak trains run between Harrisburg and Philadelphia at speeds up to 110 mph on electrified, Amtrak-owned rails, said Calvin Cassidy, Intercity Commuter Rail Coordinator for PennDOT.

But west of Harrisburg, passenger trains share Norfolk Southern Corp.'s tracks with lumbering freight trains. A trip from Pittsburgh to New York City on Amtrak's Pennsylvanian line takes more than nine hours, Cassidy said.

PennDOT is "dusting off" old studies of the corridor west of Harrisburg to determine work that might be eligible for the first grants coming in late summer, said PennDOT Secretary Allen Biehler.

Improvements could include adding "bypass sidings" so trains can pass one another, upgrading signals to efficiently share tracks, improving railroad stations and platforms, and using all-welded rails so trains can go faster, Biehler said.

Over the past five years, Amtrak and PennDOT split the $140 million cost of adding welded rails and high-tech signals to the eastern leg of the corridor, he said. As a result, the trains' top speed went from 90 to 110 mph; the trip between Harrisburg and Philadelphia was cut from 2 hours to 1 1/2 hours; ridership surged 25 percent.

The Obama administration compared the proposed rail network to the birth 53 years ago of the Interstate Highway System, which combined private and public investment to connect cities.

"We have a lot of famously congested roads that can't be widened — you can't just dig another Squirrel Hill Tunnel," Biehler said. "I don't see any way out of it unless you give people an alternative."

Six proposed routes stand a good chance of getting some of the $8 billion in stimulus money, including parts of Texas, Florida, the Chicago region and southeast routes through North Carolina and Louisiana, federal transportation officials said.

Overseas, many trains exceed the 90-mph standard set by the Federal Railroad Administration. In France, the TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse) covers 250 miles from Paris to Lyon in one hour, 55 minutes at an average speed of 133 mph. In Japan, which opened the first high-speed rail in the 1960s, the Shinkansen, or bullet trains, hurtle through the countryside at about 180 mph.

In February, Allegheny County Executive Dan Onorato rekindled the idea of using federal stimulus money to create a light-rail connection from Downtown to the North Shore, and across the Ohio River through McKees Rocks, Coraopolis and on to Pittsburgh International Airport.

But other light-rail projects — particularly a link between Downtown and Oakland along Second Avenue — rank higher on the county's stimulus wish list because they are further along in planning stages.

Federal Railroad Administration spokesman Rob Kulat said light-rail and local transit projects would not be eligible for money under the high-speed rail plan.

Allegheny County Airport Authority officials said they were not aware of any impact the federal project might have on transport to Pittsburgh International.

Kulat said the agency would issue guidelines for grant applications in mid-June and accept proposals soon after.

[tooluther]

I think this has been touched upon above, but I'll restate since I didn't get a chance.

The issue isn't so much lack of connection between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, but Chicago and Philadelphia/Washington/New York.

So I think all this phase one stuff will result in a Cleveland-Pittsburgh-DC (as well as a Cleveland-Buffalo-NYC) line and hopefully a Columbus-Pittsburgh link that would truly activate those two cities as Midwest-North East Hubs.

NOW, my #1 priority (in so much as I have a say) is connecting high speed rail to Pittsburgh International so that people can travel Harrisburg-West Coast seamlessly and thereby boosting passenger numbers at our underutilized asset.

[hyperion1110]

Ahh, such profound ironic logic from the Northside...

Considering Evergrey successfully refuted each of your claims, you should follow that precise advice. Or, maybe you acknowledge that and the comment was aimed at yourself, and we're to think Evergrey is the target of such wisdom, or maybe no one really cares either way and feels that you should just not cross the Allegheny, so as not to spoil the party for the rest of us.

If you want to continue to act immaturely, please do so privately. It's disrespectful to me, as well as to the other forumers.

[themaguffin]

Well my point was related to the Great Lakes connecting to the East Coast.

Pittsburghers going to Cleveland and vice versa is nice, but probably not something significant in traffic. Why would most people go to Cleveland?

Family or college for some. A concert that might be here, but these things are probably won't be convenient to the train.

Pittsburgh connecting to Cleveland will give Cleveland and more significantly Chicago and Detroit etc access to NYC and DC

For those who want to go there, it doesn't make sense to shoot up to Buffalo.

For a trip to Boston perhaps. or if we really had our act together and connected with Toronto and Montreal...

[Evergrey]

Why would most people go to Cleveland?


ysmLA5TqbIY


...


but seriously... with corporate Pittsburgh's colonization of the Cleveland market, there is the potential for a great amount of business traffic along this route

[themaguffin]

I didn't mean to sound silly or trival. There is some level of business travel now and that will likely increase with the PNC deal.

My point is that the greater incentive to connecting the two cities is not for the intra city travel, but for the opportunity of points east and west connecting for Pittsburgher and Clevelanders to get to other distances faster.

[pj3000]

If you want to continue to act immaturely, please do so privately. It's disrespectful to me, as well as to the other forumers.

Let's see... you make numerous claims that are called out and effectively refuted by other forumers, then you make a smug comment, then request that I stop being childish, immature, and disrespectful of you and the other forumers... maybe you should just take your own advice...

If you're going to make over-the-top, erroneous claims on this forum, be prepared to have those claims refuted in the over-the-top manner in which you made them.

[pj3000]

...

btw, here's another useless line... Raleigh-Columbia-Savannah-Jacksonville

Raleigh (1.0 mil) - 225 miles to
Columbia (0.7 mil) - 160 miles to
Savannah (0.3 mil) - 140 miles to
Jacksonville (1.3 mil)

total length: 525 miles
total population: 3.3 mil

Now, this sparsely populated line might make sense if it led to South Florida... but as currently envisioned, it terminates in Jacksonville. This is over 4X the length of the Pittsburgh-Cleveland gap and serves less than half the population. Raleigh has a lofty reputation, but I bet most people would be shocked to know it's smaller than Akron/Canton (1.1 mil). Columbia is essentially a Youngstown and Savannah is essentially a Wheeling/Steubenville.

If we can build all sorts of crazy lines connecting distantly spaced minor cities in the Southeast... why can't we connect the nation's two largest collections of major cities in the Northeast and Midwest via the short Pittsburgh-Cleveland link?

Right... I mean, what are the supposed valid reasons behind the missing primary segment connecting the northeast-midwest?... instead proposing these, what seem to be, secondary routes at best? Political influence?

[PittPenn 03]

Let's see... you make numerous claims that are called out and effectively refuted by other forumers, then you make a smug comment, then request that I stop being childish, immature, and disrespectful of you and the other forumers... maybe you should just take your own advice...

If you're going to make over-the-top, erroneous claims on this forum, be prepared to have those claims refuted in the over-the-top manner in which you made them.

Who said he was refuted? I actually agreed with most of hyperion's post.

[hyperion1110]

I'm still waiting for the Feds to realize Pittsburgh and Cleveland form part of the same metroplex (I don't know, is that a real word, or just something I heard in the movie Demolition Man? :) ).

I know this is kind of a moot now, but the congressional delegations from PA, OH, and NY should have thrown their weight together to propose a Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Akron-Cleveland-Erie-Buffalo line, with Pittsburgh connecting to Harrisburg. Alternatively, Pittsburgh could connect first to DC. While this would make less sense from the perspective of connection Megalopolis to Chic-Pitts, it could potentially bring more political weight. Either way, it would be most sensible to me to connect Pittsburgh to the East Coast before anything else...growing high speed rail organically, rather than piecewise, is the key to increasing the important of rail in this country.

Heck, maybe we can get our hockey fans north of the border to help us out. Any ground-based rapid transit system in the Great Lakes/East Coast really has to include Toronto. Eventually, you would need a second line running through Upstate NY, connecting Buffalo to NYC via Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany. However, based on populations, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Buffalo (with everything in between) would serve a much higher population than running through NY first. Just my two cents, though.

[UrbaniDesDev]

ysmLA5TqbIY


...


but seriously... with corporate Pittsburgh's colonization of the Cleveland market, there is the potential for a great amount of business traffic along this route

Thats too funny

[Gilamonster]

Cleveland......:lmao: