[Evergrey]

I'll concede that $4.6 million does seem low for that property... while the building is an obsolete turd... the parcel is ample, prominently located and highly visible... though the overall lifelessness of this 1950s master planned section of Downtown may decrease desirability...

while $4.6 does seem low... it's what the market values it at right now... nobody on earth would ever blow $58 million on that property... that's an absurd number conjured by Wagner... in the best of times they might be able to fetch a few million more... nothing close to Wagner's figure... but this is something he can talk about as he runs for governor

[hyperion1110]

With the exception of the three main Gateway towers, plus Gateway 4 (which I think is cool looking, if a bit rectangular), I think the state building has the nicest exterior of the buildings closest to the Point. For some reason, I seem to be in the minority in thinking that the Hilton is really, really ugly, as is the apartment building along the Allegheny. To me, the state building is downright handsome compared to those others.

Kudos to Milcraft for their investments in downtown. Their decision to turn the building into a residence is, I think, an excellent one. Bordering on Point State Park, units in that building will rent/sell like hotcakes. And, given that it's quite large, it could bring several hundred new residents into the Golden Triangle.

All around good stuff!

[Tombstoner]

:previous: +1

[pj3000]

http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=GE&Date=20090828&Category=NEWS06&ArtNo=308289884&Ref=AR&MaxW=580&title=0

PA bartender since Prohibition retiring

WEST VIEW, Pa. (AP) -- Only minutes after Prohibition died in 1933, Angelo Cammarata, 19, served a 10-cent bottle of Fort Pitt beer to a customer in his father's neighborhood grocery.

Ever since, except for a 30-month hitch during World War II, the son of Italian immigrants has been tending bar and serving drinks. Guinness World Records dubbed him the longest-serving bartender a decade ago, and he's earned induction into Jim Beam's Bartender Hall of Fame and numerous other honors.

Now 95, he's calling it quits.

Known as "Camm" or "Ang," he's presided over Cammarata's Cafe through births, deaths and weddings -- acting as a kind of psychologist, if not priest, for his customers for more than 70 years. The two-room bar he operates with sons John and Frank anchors the ground floor of a humble white cinderblock building in this modest suburban Pittsburgh borough. He and his wife Marietta, 92, lived in the second-floor apartment until several years ago.

"This is a good bar. All my customers here are family. We call them our family, our friends. We know them all. And they're all good," he said one day this week.

Lean of build, with much of his white hair, Cammarata looks maybe two decades younger. He wears neat tan trousers and a white T-shirt with the bar's name and "We support our troops" on the back above an eagle and Old Glory. Around his neck is a gold chain and crucifix.

He still drives -- a maroon 2004 Cadillac -- and while his hands shake a bit as he fills a glass mug with beer, he has little problem scaling a stool to pull an old picture from the wall.

The cafe is being sold in part because John, 59, recently had a heart attack.

It was time, the Cammaratas decided.

Honey-colored, wood-paneled walls have aged with a patina of nicotine over the years. In the front room is the U-shaped, wood-grained laminate bar; the back room offers patrons a pool table, juke box, large-screen TV and a dozen small tables. Cammarata's awards are displayed alongside a handmade poster honoring local servicemen.

Missing is any kitsch of the kind found in chain establishments. It's unlikely a mojito or chocolate martini has ever been ordered here.

"We're not a classy drink bar. No. We're a local bar, shot and a beer," Cammarata declared. Basic bar food -- burgers, pizza and wings are also offered.

Mike Smyers, 30, who lives a couple blocks away, is among his first customers, arriving one day this week shortly before noon. Heavily tattooed and taking a sick day from his family's heating and cooling business -- "Footballitis," he called it -- Smyers drank a vodka and orange juice, though beer would come later. A regular since he turned 21, Smyers loaded the jukebox with Hank Williams Jr., Johnny Cash and the Rolling Stones.

His family and the Cammaratas are friends. He'll miss them behind the bar, but figures he'll continue coming. "It'll still be the same people," he said.

David Wagner, 54, of nearby Bellevue, an accountant on his day off, also dropped by for a beer. He'd been intrigued by the bar since he was a kid, but only ventured inside about eight years ago.

Since then, he said he's come to value Cammarata as a friend and enjoys his stories. Cammarata "is a gateway and a portal to a time long past," he said.

Cammarata recounted how he came to the business of selling beer just as Prohibition ended.

In March 1933, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed a law allowing beer to be sold beginning April 7 that year. (It wasn't until that December that wine and liquor would be legal again.)

Cammarata's father, Catino, who came to this country from Villarosa in the late 1800s, had a grocery store with an ice cream fountain in Pittsburgh. The elder Cammarata figured with beer about to be legalized, there was money to be made.

So shortly before midnight on April 6, 1933, a truck loaded with Fort Pitt beer -- a brand no longer brewed today -- waited in the street.

"And the first strike of the clock, I took a case of beer off, took it in our grocery store ... took bottles out and started selling them, 10 cents each. Ten cents a bottle," Cammarata recalled.

The venture was so successful that the grocery was soon converted into a full-time bar. In 1935, his father built a new one -- "the most beautiful bar in all the city," Cammarata said.

But it was torn down along with some 24 city blocks as part of an urban redevelopment program in the 1950s. In 1954, Cammarata bought the present bar, several miles away and seven years old at the time. In the 1970s, he sold it but continued tending bar, then bought it back a few years later.

He could have retired years ago, Cammarata says, but the bar was a family affair, enabling him to raise three sons and a daughter. John Cammarata recalled living above the bar for about the first six years of his life, then the family moved to a house. About 20 years ago, his parents moved back above the bar.

Angelo Cammarata says he has no regrets, and wouldn't do things any differently.

He allows that he doesn't drink much, maybe an occasional highball, bourbon and Coke, or wine -- but just one.

His dad, he said, gave him some advice back when it became clear that beer sales were coming.

"He said, 'Beer is made to sell, not drink. Don't be your best customer.' And I took that to heart. I didn't care for beer," Cammarata said.

Now he just works part-time, putting in a couple of hours a day.

His last call will be sometime in the next couple of weeks, pending state approval to transfer the liquor license to the new owners. Afterward, he says he'll do chores at home and take care of Marietta, 92, who uses a cane or walker to get around.

A last-day party is being planned. Until then, drafts -- Budweiser, Coors Light and local brew IC Light -- are a buck; bottles, $2.

A chalkboard sign thanks customers: "We consider you a large part of our family."

[Wiz Khalifa]

So things have really slowed down around here from when this thread started a couple years ago. I was bored and re-reading the exciting developments from the first 10 pages, temporarily reliving all of that excitement again.

I got to wondering what has actually came to fruition during that previous "boom" period. Has anyone here been around the city lately and checked out many of the new developments?


Maybe we could start a list using this PG article I found near the beginning of this thread and state each development and its current progress (finished, under construction, on-hold, scrapped, ect.):


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06134/690031-53.stm




This weekend I took some people on a tour through the north shore, downtown, uptown, and Mt. Washington. So I will start with the developments mentioned in the old PG article above and put the current status next to the projects that I was able to see. If anyone know the status of the projects with question marks then go ahead and fill them in. :)



Key:
UC- Under Construction
WA - Waiting for Approval
OH - On hold
SC - Scrapped




The PG List:


Casino - Finished
Three PNC Plaza - Finished
PNC Park properties - UC
Consol Energy Center - UC
Point State Park - Finished
Ballpark parking garage - Finished
August Wilson Center - Finished
Encore on 7th - Finished
Mon Wharf Riverlife Trail - UC
151 Firstside - Finished
Point Park University - Finished
Cork Factory - Finished
Duquesne improvements - Finished

Liberty and 11th - ??
Pittsburgh Live - ??
Hampton Inn and Suites - ??
Penn Avenue Lofts - ??
Piatt Place - ??
Standard Life Building - ??
Granite Building - ??
Cultural Trust Development - ??
Penn Ave Lofts - ??
Fifth and Forbes Corridor - ??
The Carlyle - ??
Art Institute - ??




Additional Proposals (feel free to add to this list):

Children's Hospital - Finished
Heinz Lofts - Finished
501 Grandview - Finished
North Shore Connector - UC
Vici luxury condos - OH
Bella Vista Condos - OH
One Grandview - WA
Summerset at Frick - ??


...

[PA Pride]

So things have really slowed down around here from when this thread started a couple years ago.

Almost all cities development have ground to a halt. Credit is very hard to come by for business people so we are at a stand still.

[Black-n-Gold]

Key:
UC- Under Construction
WA - Waiting for Approval
OH - On hold
SC - Scrapped




The PG List:


Casino - Finished
Three PNC Plaza - Finished - not quite, but very close
PNC Park properties - UC
Consol Energy Center - UC
Point State Park - Finished
Ballpark parking garage - Finished
August Wilson Center - Finished
Encore on 7th - Finished
Mon Wharf Riverlife Trail - UC
151 Firstside - Finished
Point Park University - Finished
Cork Factory - Finished
Duquesne improvements - Finished

Liberty and 11th - ??
Pittsburgh Live - ??
Hampton Inn and Suites - ??
Penn Avenue Lofts - ??
Piatt Place - ?? UC, almost complete
Standard Life Building - ??
Granite Building - ?? I think she's still trying to sell floors, but no takers yet.
Cultural Trust Development - ?? Scrapped (including lawsuits!)
Penn Ave Lofts - ??
Fifth and Forbes Corridor - ??
The Carlyle - ?? UC, almost complete
Art Institute - ?? If this if the one near the First Side garage, then it's complete




Additional Proposals (feel free to add to this list):

Children's Hospital - Finished
Heinz Lofts - Finished
501 Grandview - Finished
North Shore Connector - UC
Vici luxury condos - OH
Bella Vista Condos - OH
One Grandview - WA
Summerset at Frick - ?? Most phases complete

...

SSW Hotel - Scrapped (for now)
SSW, Quantum III (AE) - UC, almost complete
SSW, Hoffbrauhaus - Complete
PNC Living Wall - UC
Market Square - UC

[themaguffin]

It cannot be overstated how significant the economic crisis is (though much more stable now than earlier this year, it’s going to take some time to get the economy moving decently again) Additionally, many fear that the other shoe to drop will be commercial real estate, so no don’t plan any seeing much happening for some time in most any city.

[gallacus]

It should also be noted that the Point State Park renovations are not complete, phase two has just begun. In addition, the Point Park University renovations along Wood street have not yet begun.

[bradjl2009]

It should also be noted that the Point State Park renovations are not complete, phase two has just begun. In addition, the Point Park University renovations along Wood street have not yet begun.
Hopefully soon they begin to come with some real concrete numbers for this and a master plan instead of the proposal. If this all comes to fruition, this will transform Wood Street like 3 PNC/Millcraft is starting to do on most of 5th Ave.

[Ditchdigger]

Summerset at Frick - ?? Most phases complete

Not even close.

While the now developed phases are approaching built-out, the full plan isn't even halfway complete. There's still quite a bit of ground to be developed between Brown's Hill Road and the existing homes, and the final phase will be on the other side of Nine Mile Run, adjoining Swisshelm Park, where the two radio antennas now stand.

[cdc]

Allegheny Council's Committee delays sale of Oakland building

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_641115.html

this is the county health building at 3333 forbes. (near arbys)
they "need to correct paperwork" before they vote.


...

A development group has offered to buy the property for $4.9 million. It would demolish the structure to build an office building, 120-room hotel and 515-space parking garage. The development is valued at $55 million and would not require public money, officials said.
...

[hyperion1110]

How is it that this group can get financing for an Oakland development, but the folks trying for the Oakland Portal development can't? It just doesn't make any sense to me. And I don't care how bad the economy is in California or Nevada...in Pittsburgh, we're doing quite all right. And, in Oakland, things have never been better. There should be developers lining up to take advantage of the lack of quality office space and housing near the Universities. Seriously, if I had the money, I would invest in Oakland any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

With respect to Pitt, of which I can attest first hand, there is such a lack of office/lab space in Oakland that entire departments are being broken up and spread all over the city. And the University is creating even more...the Med School has just created the Department of Developmental Biology, which will be housed in the new Rangos in Lawrenceville. The old Rangos in Oakland has been given to the University...but it's inadequate for the needs. My department alone has personnel in Oakland, Shadyside, Lawrenceville, South Oakland, and South Side. It boggles my mind that hundreds of companies aren't fighting like cats and dogs for the chance to build here. You could build a few million square feet of office space and a couple of thousand residential units in Oakland, and that would be gobbled up in no time.

Rich people take notice! There's money to be had!

[Evergrey]

http://www.popcitymedia.com/devnews/deutschtown0902.aspx

Deutschtown historic district sees new constructions, rehabs

http://www.popcitymedia.com/galleries/development/issue173/Deutschtown_580.jpg

The North Side's historic Deutschtown neighborhood is seeing recent development in the form of new residential constructions and rehabs of older homes.

"Deutschtown is probably the busiest neighborhood on the North Side," says Greg Jones with the Northside Leadership Conference (NSLC). "It's so convenient to Downtown and the North Shore, and you have a beautiful park right there. There's been about $2 million in new investment in housing in the last year-and-a-half in Deutschtown. In that time, there's been three new houses, and four rehabs."

Deeply involved in Deutschtown development has been October Development.

"Despite the fact that there hasn't been a whole lot of development across the city, October Development has come in and is working with NSLC, and has been successful with selling eight or nine units above market value before completion," says Jones.

Alli DePasquale of October Development says the group is taking advantage of the North Side's "architectural stock." "There are plenty of homes that are completely run down here," he says, "but they have great architectural value, so we think saving them is a priority. We like to do modern interiors, and maintain the historic integrity of the exteriors."

October Development recently worked with NSLC and the URA to build three new townhomes on the 900 block of James Street (they sold for $229,000 each and were finished early spring), and to rehabilitate two single-family homes on Tripoli and Suisman Streets, one of which is complete, the other of which will be done by late fall.

NSLC is also working with East Allegheny Community Council and the URA on two new historic rehabs on Tripoli Street that are going for about $215,000 each, and designed by TAI + LEE architects. One has already sold, and the other is still on the market.

Writer: Caralyn Green
Sources: Greg Jones, Northside Leadership Conference; Alli DePasquale, October Development

Photograph courtesy Northside Leadership Conference

[PA Pride]

"Deutschtown is probably the busiest neighborhood on the North Side,"..... In that time, there's been three new houses, and four rehabs."

Ugh. That's a little bit embarrassing.

[PA Pride]

I'm gonna post this because it is of architectural significance within the city of Pittsburgh.

Bishop's 39 room mansion sold for over $2 million

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/images/200903/20090311radhomes2_bishop_h_330.jpg
Article about the mansion: http://www.postgazette.com/pg/09070/954621-52.stm

Article about the sale: http://post-gazette.com/pg/09245/995170-455.stm

11 bedrooms, 7 bathrooms. Listed on the assessment website as 9,842 SqFt.

[ColDayMan]

That is a steal!

[Tombstoner]

At that price, you'd think some cultural organization could have found a amazing use for a building of this stature in this location.

[Evergrey]

some pr

cover story of Site Selection Magazine
http://www.siteselection.com/issues/2009/sep/cover/

Southwest Airlines Spirit Magazine spread
http://www.spiritmag.com/uploads/pdf/sas/0909/Spirit09_Pittsburgh.pdf

[hyperion1110]

Ugh. That's a little bit embarrassing.

Well, for some reason, the powers that be a few decades ago decided to use the entire North Side as one giant housing project. This had the effect of literally destroying many of the outlying neighborhoods (and it's still going on...you wouldn't believe what's happened to Brighton Heights, a neighborhood that was quite literally second to none in this city). Add to that the raping of lower North Side to build highways, stadia, and a park (all with the curious name "North Shore," which is not a neighborhood), along with the destruction of downtown Allegheny City in favor of a failed mall and the complete lack of interest from city gov't to invest in the North Side (turning the riverfront into a little park for the suburbanites to look at does NOT count), and you have a recipe for disaster on a monumental scale. Case in point, when annexed to Pittsburgh (against the will of the people), Allegheny City had a population of 132,000...in 1910. Owing to natural population increase, 50 years later, when the destruction started, the North Side had a population of over 150,000. Today, that population hovers around 60,000. If my tone seems harsh, that's because it's meant to be (though that is certainly not directed at you, PA Pride...it's the city and the county that did this).

My point in all of this is that it is a miracle Deutschtown survived at all. It really never had rich people coming in to gentrify it like the Mexican War Streets. Just a bunch of old German Catholics who didn't give up on their neighborhood like others did. It's no paradise. But, take a walk around it sometime. It's still a very nice neighborhood for the most part. And it has a LOT of potential. Given time, money, and a little care, lower North Side, including Deutschtown, could rival South Side. Heck, there are only three things that really need to be done to ensure it will happen. First, level Allegheny Center, restore the street grid, and repopulate it will late 19th/early 20th century-styled row houses and businesses. Second, reconnect the North Side with the rivers, both the Allegheny and the Ohio. And last, but not least, GET RID OF THE HOUSING PROJECTS AND SECTION 8!!! I'm all about helping the poor. But what I'm against is creating ghetto's in the middle of otherwise middle-class neighborhoods, whether through apartment complexes or section 8 housing. Fix those problems, and the North Side will become to jewel of the city: it's got the best views of downtown anywhere (better than Mt. Washington), huge amounts of flat land, and more riverfront than anywhere else in the city.

[PA Pride]

^Yes Deutschtown seems like a great little area. What are the boundarys? Is it the neighborhood between the Penn Brewery & 279 that cuts across the northside?

[hyperion1110]

^Yes Deutschtown seems like a great little area. What are the boundarys? Is it the neighborhood between the Penn Brewery & 279 that cuts across the northside?

That's part of it. It's also on the other side of 279; the three bridges over the highway connect to two halves of the neighborhood. It goes from the Penn Brewery at the base of Troy Hill all the way over to the East Ohio Street business district. The School House Apartments are there, as well as Max's Tavern. It really is a nice area, especially with Allegheny Commons park adjacent to it.

[bradjl2009]

That's part of it. It's also on the other side of 279; the three bridges over the highway connect to two halves of the neighborhood. It goes from the Penn Brewery at the base of Troy Hill all the way over to the East Ohio Street business district. The School House Apartments are there, as well as Max's Tavern. It really is a nice area, especially with Allegheny Commons park adjacent to it.
Deutchtown is nice, but they need to fix up the area east of the Parkway also because that area is a tad run down other than the Tetouina Manor and their authentic German food.

[AaronPGH]

To those interested, our internal project at work, G20Buzz, just launched. It's an aggregate site that pulls all of the latest tagged Google news feeds, Tweets, Flickr photos and YouTube videos about the upcoming G20 summit in Pittsburgh, and organizes it on one page:

http://www.g20buzz.com/

Let me know what you guys think! We're really happy with this one.

[Evergrey]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/business/s_641470.html

Craig Street merchants lobby city for help

By Sam Spatter, FOR THE TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Friday, September 4, 2009

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2009-09-03/0904CRAIG1-a.jpg
An empty gas station on Forbes Ave. near South Craig St. in Oakland on Wednesday, September 2, 2009. South Craig St. merchants sent a letter to the Mayor and City Council bemoaning the lack of traffic and the loss of other merchants, due in part to delay in building a hotel on nearby Forbes Ave.
Joe Appel/Tribune-Review

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2009-09-03/0904CRAIG2-a.jpg
David King stands on South Craig St. in Oakland across the street from his business, Oakland Fashion Optical, on Wednesday, September 2, 2009. King and other merchants sent a letter to the Mayor and City Council bemoaning the lack of traffic and the loss of other merchants, due in part to delay in building a hotel on nearby Forbes Ave.
Joe Appel/Tribune-Review

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2009-09-03/0904craig1-a.jpg

A once vibrant commercial area in the 4600 block of Forbes Avenue in Oakland is becoming "blighted and a disgrace," according to 19 store and restaurant owners around the corner on South Craig Street.

They contend that an empty and undeveloped gasoline station — the site of a delayed $40 million Museum Park Hotel — has led to the closing of a clothing store, an Italian restaurant, three small apartment buildings, a bar and a full service auto repair center, all formerly located in that block. In addition, five other businesses on Craig from Forbes to Fifth Avenue closed, and foot traffic in the business district decreased.

The merchants' level of concern reached the point that they signed a letter and sent it to Mayor Luke Ravenstahl and Councilman Bill Peduto, citing the negative effects of the hotel delay.

In the letter, they blame Carnegie Mellon University for not wanting the hotel and for purchasing land surrounding the site. A year ago, CMU filed a lawsuit to stop construction, even after the city approved the hotel.

"I cannot comment on the letter, as I haven't seen it," CMU spokeswoman Teresa Thomas said. "As a rule, Carnegie Mellon is committed to ensuring that the neighborhood surrounding our campus is attractive and well-suited for the community it serves."

The hotel was proposed three years ago by Museum Park Hotel LP, the developer. They include Brint Motheral of Brint Motheral Real Estate Inc. and Cambridge Venture Partners LLC.

The hotel would be built on a former Exxon station property at 4655 Forbes Ave., adjacent to CMU properties at 4620, 4622 and 5000 Forbes Ave. The university occupies the Graphic Arts Building, which bounds the property on the west.

The developer's original plan was to build an H-shaped 13-story, 315-room hotel. But after a series of meetings with community groups, business group Craig Street Merchants, CMU and the Carnegie Museum, parties agreed on an L-shaped configuration for an 11-story, 225-room hotel.

CMU was concerned over how the hotel fit into the campus because it would be the gateway to the university, CMU's Thomas said a year ago.

Since then, the developers agreed to further reduce the hotel to seven stories and 144 rooms, but it still has not been built.

"I've noticed a decrease in foot traffic, but I'm not sure whether that's because of the lack of a hotel or the economy, or the fact that CMU is in the same building as me at 311 S. Craig, and school was out of session," said David King, owner of Oakland Fashion Optical, who signed the letter. "A hotel would be an asset to the street, and I believe CMU would also benefit from it because of the many visitors and students it gets to its campus."

Ravenstahl's spokeswoman and Peduto could not be reached for comment.

Carnegie Mellon has said it wants to develop the southern portion of Forbes Avenue into an educational, research, business and cultural corridor. Earlier this year, it agreed to purchase three acres of land from Carnegie Institute for about $25 million. On Monday, it completed the purchase of a former National City Bank branch at 4612 Forbes for $2.8 million.

No specific plans for the block have been announced, but any development would be in partnership with the local community, government, business and industry that will be a benchmark for Pittsburgh, said CMU's Thomas.

In early 2008, the Pittsburgh Zoning Board of Adjustment approved plans for the 11-story hotel.

In March 2008, CMU filed a lawsuit, protesting approval of variances granted for the hotel by the zoning board. The university said the maximum height permitted under existing zoning is 60 feet, which can be extended to 85 feet, but the zoning board approved a height of 135 feet.

After attempting to negotiate an agreement for a year with CMU over the hotel, the developers scaled down the hotel from 11 to seven stories and 144 rooms, which needed only a special exception approval from the zoning board.

At a hearing before the board in August, CMU again protested the hotel. No decision was made by the board.

Brint Motheral, the developer's managing partner, said following the first city approval for the hotel, "we didn't have a clue CMU would oppose the hotel, after holding meetings with them, with neighborhood groups and the Craig Street merchants."

"We actually designed four floors of the hotel to accommodate CMU, providing a conference center, restaurant, health club, lap pool and valet service," he said.

Motheral said he is concerned that Craig Street may change the way Walnut Street in Shadyside has with the loss of local merchants and the entry of national chains if the fight to build a hotel is prolonged.

"We not only reduced the size and mass of the hotel, we also took out the full-service brand while maintaining the hotel's upscale development," said attorney Russell Mills, of Mill & Henry, Downtown, who represents the developer.

He is hoping for a board decision this month.

[pj3000]

^ that block is a disgrace for Oakland

[Evergrey]

^ that block is a disgrace for Oakland

well... that's what CMU gets as their "gateway"... since an upscale hotel is somehow incompatible with their vision of their "gateway"... CMU is being selfish... they want control of that parcel... it doesn't matter what would've been proposed there... but in the mean time... they'll have an abandoned gas station as their gateway

CMU is rightly celebrated for what they bring to PGH... but this is another example of how a major institution can bully and dominate a neighborhood

[Evergrey]

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2009/09/07/story2.html?b=1252296000^2042851

Businesses near Carnegie Mellon rally for hotel

North Oakland firms fear CMU will appeal latest proposal

Pittsburgh Business Times - by Tim Schooley

Business owners on Craig Street in Oakland are rallying in support of a proposed hotel development in their neighborhood.

In 2007, Brinton Motheral and his business partners paid $3.15 million to buy a former service station on Forbes Avenue near Craig Street, a hefty sum for a less-than-half-acre parcel. Their plan was to turn the property into a 12-story, 225-room hotel with meeting space, a health club and other full-service amenities.

The group, operating as Museum Park LP, initially won unanimous support from the city’s zoning board. But in March 2008, Carnegie Mellon University blocked the development by appealing the board’s decision, citing the project’s proposed height and density.

Since then, the developers have gone back to the drawing board and are preparing a seven-story, 144-room, limited service hotel.

The project will go before the zoning board in a few weeks, and Motheral is bracing for the possibility of another appeal from CMU based partly on the institution’s unexpected last-minute opposition last year.

A few weeks ago, an ad-hoc group called the Craig Street Businesses of Oakland sent a letter to Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl and Councilman Bill Peduto to express their support for the project’s developer. The writers said they were “stunned” by CMU’s earlier appeal.

“Everyone was excited because a quality hotel is desperately needed and the hotel’s international guests and visitors would certainly generate additional income for all businesses in the area,” read the letter, which was signed by 20 people who represent 18 businesses on Craig Street.

A spokesman for CMU declined to comment on the letter, saying only, “As a rule, Carnegie Mellon is committed to ensuring that the neighborhood surrounding our campus is attractive and well-suited for the community it serves.”

The letter represents a change in attitude of the business owners on Craig Street, which depend on the patronage of students and staff of Carnegie Mellon.

The business district has seen five local businesses close in the past year, including two clothing stores, a men’s hair salon, an organic restaurant and Watermelon Blues, a longtime gift shop.

At the same time, CMU has been buying up the property around the Museum Park Hotel site.

In early July, Carnegie Mellon paid $23 million to the Carnegie Institute to acquire the 40,000-square-foot Graphic Arts Technical building at 4615 Forbes Ave., a nearby parking lot and a three-acre parcel that extends along Forbes Avenue and down into Junction Hollow. Carnegie Mellon also paid nearly $2 million to PNC Financial Services Group Inc. for a former National City bank site at 4612 Forbes Ave.

Those properties join a stretch of properties Carnegie Mellon already owns across Forbes Avenue from the hotel site, where a host of local businesses once operated but are now unoccupied, further harming the business district’s vibrancy, business owners say.

“My interaction with them this past year is that they’ve really taken the stance of not being public friendly to their neighbors,” said Stephen Hnat, owner of Top Notch Art Centre, an art supply store on Craig since 1987. “It’s about CMU and CMU’s profit. They really don’t care what goes on here.”

Hnat said he had been negotiating to bring a CMU program into his building as a tenant and was unhappy when the university decided it would prefer to buy his building and lease the store space back to him instead. He declined that offer and said that, for him, CMU’s opposition to the hotel was the final straw.

David Hander, who owns Crepes Parisiennes on Craig Street, also is baffled by the university’s opposition to the original hotel project.

“I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t want it to go up,” he said. “Anything like that where people were staying, even for a small amount of time, would increase traffic. It would increase our lunch business. Probably everybody would benefit.”

Tom Chianelli, a partner in the Italian restaurant Lucca, owner of two buildings and a landlord of Carnegie Mellon, expressed ambivalence.

He said he sees CMU as a good customer and tenant but, as a neighbor, it seems to demonstrate no other motivating interest in opposing the hotel than its own expansion imperatives.

“I think the proverbial 400-pound gorilla doesn’t want anybody else to have it,” he said, wary of the prospect of the university continuing to take neighboring property off the tax rolls.

For his part, Motheral expressed frustration with Carnegie Mellon. He said his group met with the university 10 times over the course of a year to craft a project CMU would support and was caught off-guard when it appealed the zoning decision.

The delay has been a considerable expense to his group, Motheral said, though he declined to disclose specific dollar figures.

“It’s very disappointing,” he said. “But we will prevail.”

tschooley@bizjournals.com | (412) 208-3826

[JakeLiefer]

I remember going with my dad to David King probably 15 years ago when we would get new frames. Great, friendly guy who is passionate about his business... seeing this makes me want to go to him and pick up a pair of glasses.

[pj3000]

well... that's what CMU gets as their "gateway"... since an upscale hotel is somehow incompatible with their vision of their "gateway"... CMU is being selfish... they want control of that parcel... it doesn't matter what would've been proposed there... but in the mean time... they'll have an abandoned gas station as their gateway

CMU is rightly celebrated for what they bring to PGH... but this is another example of how a major institution can bully and dominate a neighborhood

Exactly... that's what I thought too. Their concern is their gateway... well, they get to welcome visitors to their end of the Forbes corridor with an overgrown, abandoned gas station, an atrocious bank branch that looks like its closed, and a couple fenced-in, vacant, dilapidated houses... my, what a stunning entrance for a top international university to have!

[PA Pride]

Nice job CMU. Way to try and control parcels of land you don't even own.
You're right Evergrey, it didn't matter what was proposed to build there. This is very distressing to me as a hopeful future property developer because it tells me that even when you try and add value to a neighborhood with something that is lacking such as a shotage of hotel rooms, there will still be people who oppose you for negligable reasons.

[hyperion1110]

Exactly... that's what I thought too. Their concern is their gateway... well, they get to welcome visitors to their end of the Forbes corridor with an overgrown, abandoned gas station, an atrocious bank branch that looks like its closed, and a couple fenced-in, vacant, dilapidated houses... my, what a stunning entrance for a top international university to have!

Let them build the freakin' hotel! We need it!

I think you guys hit the nail right on the head with CMU's real reasons for obstructing the hotel. It's all about creating that portal. If they can hold things up a little longer, the developer will pull out. Then they can buy the land, and build a nice fancy arch across Forbes...perhaps with ivy growing up the sides...but only if they can figure out the Secret Smart People Club Handshake!

Overpriced..........................................Check!
Stick up the A$$..................................Check!
Lots of Asains......................................Check!
Lack of Competitive Research Funding......Check!

Looks like they are ripe to join the Ivy League!

[pj3000]

I can understand that CMU wants control of that area, and would ideally like to own that parcel where the proposed hotel would go up (as it sits adjacent to property they own). However, I have a problem with the university blocking private development because it may not fit in with their long-range development plans.

I say that the owners should sell the land to CMU at at least a 25% profit, if CMU wants it so badly and negotiate with UPMC/Pitt to construct the original full-service upscale hotel on the lot behind the PAA. That centrally-located parcel is a far more suitable location for a large hotel.

[hyperion1110]

I can understand that CMU wants control of that area, and would ideally like to own that parcel where the proposed hotel would go up (as it sits adjacent to property they own). However, I have a problem with the university blocking private development because it may not fit in with their long-range development plans.

I say that the owners should sell the land to CMU at at least a 25% profit, if CMU wants it so badly and negotiate with UPMC/Pitt to construct the original full-service upscale hotel on the lot behind the PAA. That centrally-located parcel is a far more suitable location for a large hotel.

Amen!

In other news, Fast Eddie, Ex-Mayor of Philly and Emperor of Mr. Penn's Woods, is putting all of his weight behind this stupid pension bill that will go along way to destroying Pittsburgh.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09247/995522-454.stm

Basically, some genius thought it was a good idea to tie a 1% sales tax increase for Philly to the state-takeover of Pittsburgh's pension fund. What a way to set up an us vs. them situation! Hmm...either we ruin Philly or we ruin Pittsburgh...choices, choices!

The only thing that might save our city is that the Southwestern PA delegation in the Legislature is about as large as the one for Southeastern PA.

[Brandon716]

To those interested, our internal project at work, G20Buzz, just launched. It's an aggregate site that pulls all of the latest tagged Google news feeds, Tweets, Flickr photos and YouTube videos about the upcoming G20 summit in Pittsburgh, and organizes it on one page:

http://www.g20buzz.com/

Let me know what you guys think! We're really happy with this one.

Nice site, noticed this view of market square on Sept 3:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33065773@N00/3884884638

[Tombstoner]

Nice job CMU. Way to try and control parcels of land you don't even own.


But isn't that what all universities do? Like others, I fail to see how a derelict stretch of Forbes is in CMU's interests, and I certainly think the process through which CMU is sabotaging the hotel is sleazy, but really, CMU does have a huge stake in property in this area (not that everyone has to dance to their tune, but they have to be at the table). CMU has perhaps the smallest footprint of any major university in the US; although I'd prefer to see them set their sights on developing some of their parking lots north of Forbes, the Craig street corridor is really the only way they can grow. Again, it's sleazy and confusing (a hotel would be GREAT for CMU who currently have to put up important guests in 2 to 3-star hotels several blocks from campus), but I can't blame them for being aggressive.

[cdc]

Lots of Asains......................................Check!

Looks like they are ripe to join the Ivy League!


Crazy talk. There's nothing wrong with Asians, and CMU can hardly
join the Ivy League without a law school and med school, eh?


CMU isn't doing anything that the other big bullies in Oakland
(e.g. Pitt and UPMC) wouldn't do, so none of this should be much of a
surprise for you guys.

A developer who proposes a project that doesn't meet local zoning
requirements and thus needs variances should be prepared to play these
kinds of games. It is part of the cost of doing this kind of
business.

[pj3000]

CMU isn't doing anything that the other big bullies in Oakland
(e.g. Pitt and UPMC) wouldn't do, so none of this should be much of a
surprise for you guys.

True, Pitt and UPMC have had far from a cooperative relationship with the Oakland business community over the years, and they have acted to serve their own interests with little consideration for their neighbors. None of CMU's stonewalling/sabotaging is a surprise.

However, that does not make it acceptable. The stifling of legitimate, private, and major economic investment, and the subsequent benefit to the area and city as a whole, by a university that is known for sitting on its own development plans for years before breaking ground is dangerous to the economic climate of Oakland.

[Evergrey]

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2009/08/31/daily45.html

American Eagle Outfitters expands SouthSide Works operations

Pittsburgh Business Times - by Tim Schooley

Pittsburgh’s SouthSide Works development will see an infusion of new people starting today.

American Eagle Outfitters Inc. begins moving into Quantum III, the 150,000-square-foot riverfront office building that is a companion to the company’s already occupied headquarters on Hot Metal Street.

Jani Strand, a spokeswoman for the company, said approximately 200 employees from the company’s 77kids, marketing and AEO Direct departments will begin moving in today, a process the company expects will take about a week. The company still maintains some of its operations in Marshall.

American Eagle moved its headquarters to the mixed-use development in July 2007. With the addition of Quantum III, the retailer expects to have approximately 500 people working in Pittsburgh’s South Side neighborhood within the next 18 months.

“It’s more bodies,” said Damian Soffer, president of The Soffer Organization, developer of SouthSide Works, who hopes the new additions will shop and dine amid the project’s stores and restaurants. “That’s always good.”

The American Eagle move-in comes as the development undergoes construction on its riverfront park as well as the widening of East Carson Street. A project expected to cost $20 million, Quantum III will be occupied as Harmar-based Kratsa Properties works to finish construction on a new hotel across the street.

“We should be announcing our hotel soon as well,” Soffer said.

tschooley@bizjournals.com | (412) 208-3826

[hyperion1110]

Crazy talk. There's nothing wrong with Asians, and CMU can hardly
join the Ivy League without a law school and med school, eh?


CMU isn't doing anything that the other big bullies in Oakland
(e.g. Pitt and UPMC) wouldn't do, so none of this should be much of a
surprise for you guys.

A developer who proposes a project that doesn't meet local zoning
requirements and thus needs variances should be prepared to play these
kinds of games. It is part of the cost of doing this kind of
business.

I gave my list in jest. Pitt actually has a lot more international students, including Asians, than CMU does. I was actually pointing out the common characteristics that I've noted among Ivy League schools. And actually, no, not all Ivy League schools have med and law schools. Princeton has no professional schools, and Cornell's medical school is only loosely related to the university, as it is in NYC. Truly, other than my frivolous list, what puts all of these institutions in the same class is the fact that they have generally mediocre athletics, so they compete against one another...hence the eight institution athletics conference, the Ivy League.

As for the development, while its true that the proposed height exceeded the zoning, CMU's tactics still stink. If there was a problem with the height, CMU should, and did, voice their concerns. In response, the height was lower, presumably with the input of CMU. Then they complain again, and it was lowered again. Now, at less than half the original size it should have been, it hasn't been built yet...CMU is gearing up to whine some more.

As for the bullying thing, I've worked Pitt for several years, with my relationship to it going back more than ten years (as a student), I cannot recall Pitt ever pulling a stunt like this before. To my knowledge, they haven't told a private developer what they can and cannot do on their land simply to frustrate them into selling their property. And it would be very, very unlikely Pitt would stop a hotel from being built in Oakland. You can talk to any Pitt administrator, and he or she will tell you the same thing: we need hundreds of more hotel rooms in Oakland.

[pj3000]

^ Pitt hasn't had the greatest relationship historically with the Oakland community. It only became "friendly" with the past decade or so. Since the 1960s (when Pitt became public), Oakland citizens were basically ignored by the university when they had any reservations whatsoever about Pitt's expansion plans. Any property in Oakland was pretty much regarded as eminent domain by Pitt, which was able to purchase large tracts of property in Oakland with GSA funding. When Forbes Field was demolished for Forbes Quad (now Posvar Hall, Lawrence Hall, and Barco Law Bldg. complex), numerous residents were forced to move without any sort of relocation. Additionally, the were numerous proposals throughout the years by private developers to build on the properties where Bouquet Gardens and Sennott Square now sit. Those private developers were pushed out forcefully by Pitt which was able to acquire all of that land via taxpayer funds.

Also:

Do you know what once stood on Bigelow Blvd. on the site of UPMC's surface parking lot behind the PAA?

With some shady political dealings, UPMC bid against Pitt and bought the beloved and historic Syria Mosque (Pittsburgh's top music venue) from the Shriners and secretly planned to demolish it for parking/future development, even though it was to be designated a National Historic Landmark. There was so much public outcry over it that Jim Ferlo even tied himself to one of the Sphinx statues outside and was taken away by the cops. They demolished it in the middle of the night in 1991. I saw a few shows there when I was an early teen, back when Oakland was quite a different place than it is now.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u217/rieraci/pittsburgh/1920hs03.jpg

[Johnland]

^ Pitt hasn't had the greatest relationship historically with the Oakland community. Also:

Do you know what once stood on Bigelow Blvd. on the site of UPMC's surface parking lot behind the PAA?

With some shady political dealings, UPMC bid against Pitt and bought the beloved and historic Syria Mosque (Pittsburgh's top music venue) from the Shriners and secretly planned to demolish it for parking/future development, even though it was to be designated a National Historic Landmark. There was so much public outcry over it that Jim Ferlo even tied himself to one of the Sphinx statues outside and was taken away by the cops. They demolished it in the middle of the night in 1991. I saw a few shows there when I was an early teen, back when Oakland was quite a different place than it is now.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u217/rieraci/pittsburgh/1920hs03.jpg

I will never not get angry over the shoddy loss of the Mosque.

[beyondtheforest]

I think it's a shame that the Allegheny County Health building in Oakland (on Forbes) is to be demolished for new development. That is a really nice historic building. I hope they can save it.

Also, I think those old car dealerships on Baum are neat as well. Hopefully they can be re-used. Why on earth did the dealerships close, anyway? Those were ideal places to have dealerships.

[Juicedog1313]

Also, I think those old car dealerships on Baum are neat as well. Hopefully they can be re-used. Why on earth did the dealerships close, anyway? Those were ideal places to have dealerships.


The dealerships were to be replaced with apartment buildings, retail stores, and a hotel, but some local residents got their panties in a bunch over the whole idea, and shot the development down.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08347/934652-53.stm

I've gotta disagree with you, however, about the intersection of Baum and Liberty being an ideal location for car dealerships. I think the proposed development would have created an urban fluidity between Bloomfield and Shadyshide. I used to work in Bloomfield, and would walk to the Taco Bell after quitting time., And I would think that the upper end of Liberty Avenue was barren and boring. It seemed that Bloomfield was bustling and Shadyside was bustling, but there was a patch of asphalt desert in between.

Car dealerships and their sizable parking lots are more suitable for the outskirts of town. Think West Liberty Ave, or perhaps the stretch of Penn Ave, between Point breeze and Wilkinsburg, West Mifflin, etc. To put them in the middle of town ruins the fun of living in the city.

[Juicedog1313]

Its been a while since i've been to this site. Can anybody tell me what they're building on the North Shore, around the stadiums? Besides the subway stations, there seems to be alot of construction going on.

[Evergrey]

The dealerships were to be replaced with apartment buildings, retail stores, and a hotel, but some local residents got their panties in a bunch over the whole idea, and shot the development down.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08347/934652-53.stm

I've gotta disagree with you, however, about the intersection of Baum and Liberty being an ideal location for car dealerships. I think the proposed development would have created an urban fluidity between Bloomfield and Shadyshide. I used to work in Bloomfield, and would walk to the Taco Bell after quitting time., And I would think that the upper end of Liberty Avenue was barren and boring. It seemed that Bloomfield was bustling and Shadyside was bustling, but there was a patch of asphalt desert in between.

Car dealerships and their sizable parking lots are more suitable for the outskirts of town. Think West Liberty Ave, or perhaps the stretch of Penn Ave, between Point breeze and Wilkinsburg, West Mifflin, etc. To put them in the middle of town ruins the fun of living in the city.

Agreed completely.

[Ditchdigger]

I will never not get angry over the shoddy loss of the Mosque.

I don't know if anyone besides me will recall this, but if memory serves me correctly, the first step in the demolition of the Mosque was to take a machine and ruin the ornate decorative work around the entrances in the front.

On another forum, I've read a demolition contractor recommend that practice in cases where there's a large amount of public outcry against razing the building. Once the thing has been defaced, it kinda takes the wind out of any attempts at last minute court injunctions or other heroic measures to save it...

[Tombstoner]

I don't know if anyone besides me will recall this, but if memory serves me correctly, the first step in the demolition of the Mosque was to take a machine and ruin the ornate decorative work around the entrances in the front.

On another forum, I've read a demolition contractor recommend that practice in cases where there's a large amount of public outcry against razing the building. Once the thing has been defaced, it kinda takes the wind out of any attempts at last minute court injunctions or other heroic measures to save it...

I don't recall that exactly (it may be the case) but I do remember a few people at the time decrying the defacement of the Koranic text that wrapped around the building. Of course, these days that argument would get a lot more play... Demolition of this building was a crime.

[Johnland]

I... Demolition of this building was a crime.

An unpardonable crime because the land was then used for a surface parking lot. There might have been some small room for ewdwmption if a fantastic, quality archictural building had replaced the Mosque. But to tear down an architecturally unique and significant building, whose use was a music hall no less, is just wrong.

[Tombstoner]

And, it was once home to the Pittsburgh Symphony in its heyday (not to keep piling on...).

[Johnland]

And, it was once home to the Pittsburgh Symphony in its heyday (not to keep piling on...).

That's right...I'd forgotten that.

Oh I know, enough said. It's gone. Maybe we'll get satisfaction if they tear down Posvar Hall!! Now that's a demo I'd vote for!! :haha:

[beyondtheforest]

<<"Car dealerships and their sizable parking lots are more suitable for the outskirts of town. Think West Liberty Ave, or perhaps the stretch of Penn Ave, between Point breeze and Wilkinsburg, West Mifflin, etc. To put them in the middle of town ruins the fun of living in the city.">>

I respectfully disagree. I think the fun of living in the city involves partly the diversity of retail and things you can see and/or do. Historically, that stretch of Baum was home to the greatest collection of car dealers in the city, from the 1920s on. Take the AAA Cadillac gardens building for example. It was part of the city's heritage to have its car dealerships there. Also, I think it's fun to be able to look at new cars in the city, and not have to travel to the distant suburbs to have your car repaired and/or to buy a car. I'm sorry, but my idea of city living does not require leaving the city to do everything but shop and dine!

[PA Pride]

But what about the NEW Syria Mosque in Cheswick?!? It's almost as nice... :(

http://www.syriashriners.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/bldfrt.jpg.w560h420.jpg
http://www.syriashriners.org/id15.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/austindaniel/tabletostage3b.jpg
http://www.syriashriners.org/id103.html

I was there a few months ago. It's actually pretty nice inside. It can hold over 1,000 people in the main room.

[Juicedog1313]

I respectfully disagree. I think the fun of living in the city involves partly the diversity of retail and things you can see and/or do. Historically, that stretch of Baum was home to the greatest collection of car dealers in the city, from the 1920s on. Take the AAA Cadillac gardens building for example. It was part of the city's heritage to have its car dealerships there. Also, I think it's fun to be able to look at new cars in the city, and not have to travel to the distant suburbs to have your car repaired and/or to buy a car. I'm sorry, but my idea of city living does not require leaving the city to do everything but shop and dine!

Yes, diversity is good for us all, and I wasn't advocating suburban only dealerships. Point Breeze and Brookline/Dormont are hardly distant suburbs. In fact, they are technically within, or border, the city limits.Those areas were designed with the automobile in mind. Bloomfield was not. I was suggesting that car dealerships would probably serve a better purpose in other, not so central, locations within the city. Washington Blvd, which is only a mile or two from Baum-Liberty, would actually benefit from a business like a car dealership.

I'm not an expert on the subject, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in the1920's, most people didn't own a car or live in modern day suburbia. Those dealerships were luxuries for well-to-do folks, who happened to take up residernce in the nearby mini mansions of the then considered suburban neighborhoods of Friendship and Shadyside. For better or worse, the city ended up growing out and around that particular intersection, and that intersection is now a key link to North Oakland, East Liberty, and Bloomfield becoming one big, interconnected, and vibrant area of the city.

Are the buildings really considered historical? If so... so what? Pittsburgh is historically the Steel City, but times have changed, and we had to change with them. The foundation of the Fort in Point State Park was historical, and alot of people huffed and puffed at the notion of it being filled in. I'm all for preserving history, but the the Point is alot more functional now, since you don't have to walk a half mile around a huge ditch to get to the fountain.

I'm not saying that the dealerships were horrid. For car dealerships, they were quite classy, and they served their purpose in the time that they were operating, but now that Oakland is growing, East Liberty is rebounding, and Bloomfield has to absorb the activity that the Childrens hospital will create, perhaps it is a good idea to let go of days gone by, and build something more practical for the here and now.

[biscuit]

<<"Car dealerships and their sizable parking lots are more suitable for the outskirts of town. Think West Liberty Ave, or perhaps the stretch of Penn Ave, between Point breeze and Wilkinsburg, West Mifflin, etc. To put them in the middle of town ruins the fun of living in the city.">>

I respectfully disagree. I think the fun of living in the city involves partly the diversity of retail and things you can see and/or do. Historically, that stretch of Baum was home to the greatest collection of car dealers in the city, from the 1920s on. Take the AAA Cadillac gardens building for example. It was part of the city's heritage to have its car dealerships there. Also, I think it's fun to be able to look at new cars in the city, and not have to travel to the distant suburbs to have your car repaired and/or to buy a car. I'm sorry, but my idea of city living does not require leaving the city to do everything but shop and dine!

The PG had an article about the dealership closings a few months ago. The gist of it was that the high end dealers (Mercedes-Smart, BMW-Mini, and Porsche) were doing fine, as well was Honda. The GM-Mazda dealer, Don Allen, claimed their customer base was eroding that the customers they did have often had poor credit. Basically, the dealerships that were making money had customers from the hospitals, universities, and the generally upper-income households in Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, etc. - people that aren't known for buying GM products. The demise of of the Chrysler Dealership was because they actually sold more used cars than new. And the new owners at Fiat closed a lot of dealerships for this reason. The only closure that puzzles me was P&W Saab. You can't swing a dead cat in Shadyside without hitting a Saab.

As an aside, has anyone else noticed that the tag frames on cars bought at Shadyside Honda now say "Bloomfield?"

[Tombstoner]

But what about the NEW Syria Mosque in Cheswick?!? It's almost as nice... :(

http://www.syriashriners.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/bldfrt.jpg.w560h420.jpg
http://www.syriashriners.org/id15.html


Yikes! I'll take your word for it that the interior is nice, but this building is an abomination in the eyes of God and Man! :( Someone's just askin' to get smote...

(please, please tell me those aren't the original sphinx??? tell me that they are in a museum somewhere. lie if you have to.)

[Suffice]

Wow, wow, wow. Pittsburgh is looking great. I hope the rebound continues for another 10+ years so that the remaining pockets of blight can be renovated, and by that i don't mean turned into lofts, but cleaned up, maybe? seems like some sidewalks and roads need to be paved, and of course the entire Hill area seems like it needs a lot of work, but i'd say that Pittsburgh is doing as well as just about anywhere else in the world in terms of new developments, and actually building planned projects. I can't wait to visit your city! I did some research, and it seems the South Flats, Downtown, the Cultural District, Oakland, Squirrel Hill, and Mexican War streets are the places to hang out and walk around. The nightlife in the Strip District seems like it's popping, but this area seems like it leaves a lot to be desired. What are some of the non-skyscraper projects (street cleaning, paving, new signs, bike paths, building renovation, transportation) going on in the parts of town such as Strip District, The Hill, Bloomfield, Lawrenceville, and Northside?

[beyondtheforest]

I personally love the Strip district just as it is. It's a great, gritty area with lots of fab old warehouses and antique buildings. Lots of these are being rehabbed into expensive lofts and condos. I do wish there were more affordable rehab projects. There are many vacant lots and parking lots in the strip that are ripe for development. There are also a few vacant old buildings left which are aching to be restored for new use. I think, regardless of what happens, the character of the strip should be preserved. I was just there Saturday afternoon and you wouldn't believe how packed Penn Ave was, tons of people shopping and dining, the streets were jammed with people. If we can get so many people to shop and dine in the strip, it should be easy to get them to go a few steps further -- downtown.

[beyondtheforest]

Those areas were designed with the automobile in mind. Bloomfield was not. Yeah, but that area WAS redesigned with the automobile in mind, as was much of the city, in the past century. Urban renewal wiped out that strip of Baum and replaced it with car dealerships, repair shops, warehouses, etc. Perhaps you are advocating returning it to residential use, as it was prior to the automobile?

that intersection is now a key link to North Oakland, East Liberty, and Bloomfield becoming one big, interconnected, and vibrant area of the city.

I see your point, I just don't necessarily think a bunch of generic contemporary high rise buildings are going to make the area more vibrant than it was when all of those historic buildings were in use. I just liked the look of the area when the buildings were in use.

Are the buildings really considered historical? If so... so what? Pittsburgh is historically the Steel City, but times have changed, and we had to change with them. Well, I am of the school that believes new buildings should always look better than what they replace, and I sort of like the gritty urban character of those old dealerships. I don't think some generic glass box will look better than those neat old brick structures..

I'm all for preserving history, but the the Point is alot more functional now

The point is also dead now. Penn Ave used to extend into the point, and there was a commercial district and residential area in the point, all gone now, for a bunch of nondescript, mundane "modernist" architecture and fields of concrete. I never see anyone in that part of town besides a few stragglers and homeless.

perhaps it is a good idea to let go of days gone by, and build something more practical for the here and now. Today's "here and now" is tomorrow's impractical. Most of today's buildings won't be functional that long. Make sure the things we are tearing down are being replaced with something better. The old structures around Pittsburgh can be rehabbed into something much more attractive than the typical architect can design these days, and they won't appear dated in 10-15 years because they are already classic....plus it's more green to reuse buildings.

[Suffice]

I personally love the Strip district just as it is. It's a great, gritty area with lots of fab old warehouses and antique buildings. Lots of these are being rehabbed into expensive lofts and condos. I do wish there were more affordable rehab projects. There are many vacant lots and parking lots in the strip that are ripe for development. There are also a few vacant old buildings left which are aching to be restored for new use. I think, regardless of what happens, the character of the strip should be preserved. I was just there Saturday afternoon and you wouldn't believe how packed Penn Ave was, tons of people shopping and dining, the streets were jammed with people. If we can get so many people to shop and dine in the strip, it should be easy to get them to go a few steps further -- downtown.


I totally agree about the empty lots. It's a huge problem here in Los Angeles. What happens quite often is that empty lots stay while old , beautiful buildings are torn down to make way for new developments. This dynamic seems quite ridiculous until you factor in the need for parking spaces in a city like LA. With the expanding transportation network in Pittsburgh, though, it seems there is no need for so much parking. Besides, PA not being a seismic zone, it is reasonable to assume that underground parking is an option for new developments. Also i agree that there should be more low-cost new housing built. This will eventually happen once the upmarket lofts/condos are topped out, provided the Pittsburgh development trends continue upwards. I have a question, where is the more artistic part of the city? with the art galleries, and a bohemian vibe, if there is one?

[beyondtheforest]

I get an artsy vibe from the South Side, Bloomfield, and especially Lawrenceville neighborhoods. Downtown has all the young artists. They go to the art institute.

[Juicedog1313]

The point is also dead now. Penn Ave used to extend into the point, and there was a commercial district and residential area in the point, all gone now, for a bunch of nondescript, mundane "modernist" architecture and fields of concrete. I never see anyone in that part of town besides a few stragglers and homeless.

Can't say that I go to the point that often myself. I like the park, but the whole Gateway Center area is not that hot. I think it was designed with the automobile in mind. ;)

[Juicedog1313]

I get an artsy vibe from the South Side, Bloomfield, and especially Lawrenceville neighborhoods. Downtown has all the young artists. They go to the art institute.

I would say that Polish Hill has become more artsy and bohemian in recent times. It has a few of the best live music hot spots in the city, at least.

[Tombstoner]

I get an artsy vibe from the South Side, Bloomfield, and especially Lawrenceville neighborhoods. Downtown has all the young artists. They go to the art institute.

I agree that these neighborhoods have the artsiest vibes, but I think Pitt's Studio Arts and CMU have really active arts communities too (though Oakland doesn't showcase it very well).

[Wheelingman04]

What is the percentage of Hispanics in Beechview now? I have read in the past that a good bit of Mexicans are taking up residence in that area and are opening stores and restaurants?

[Evergrey]

The oldest building on the Don Allen dealership site has very minor art deco touches... it's an ok building... but nothing that should stall bigger plans (such as the scuttled mixed-use proposal last year)... Day Automotive is a solid building and could possibly be repurposed if the economics work... but I wouldn't be sorry to see it replaced by a larger development

You're right, Juice... the eastern terminus of Liberty Ave. is ragged and desolate... even when Don Allen was in business... it was still a depressing stretch as an automobile dealership adds nothing to neighborhood vibrancy and urban fabric cohesiveness (though I'm sure one can come up with positives... such as a convenient place to get car parts/service, etc.).

While automobile dealerships certainly can be part of an urban city... there are spots where there is so much more value for the city if they were replaced by appropriate urban development... the intersection of Baum and Liberty is one of the most crucial nodes in the City of Pittsburgh... and I advocate developing the hell out of it... maximize the potential of that location and tie together the vibrant neighborhoods of the East End. Now the closure of Day Automotive provides an even greater opportunity for urban transformation in this spot... and a fulfillment of the visions of Peduto's Baum-Centre high-density corridor plan.


...


Strip District... another area plagued by parking lots... those 5 blocks of Penn are wonderful.. but the District could be so much more. The blossoming residential component is encouraging... but it's certainly not one of the city's premiere nightlife neighborhoods anymore.

[Juicedog1313]

What is the percentage of Hispanics in Beechview now? I have read in the past that a good bit of Mexicans are taking up residence in that area and are opening stores and restaurants?

I don't know the actual percentage, but it is not as high as that post-gazette article would have you believe.

Since my last girlfriend lived just outside of Beechview, I would buy groceries there regularly. Beechview is slowly starting to become slightly more hispanic, but not rapidly. I have heard alot of Spanish being spoken, but the overall population seems to be a mixture of working class white yinzers, working class blacks, and working class mexican immigrants. It is not an an area with enough money to start alot of small businesses, like ethnic restaurants.

The storefronts along Broadway have far too many "For Rent" signs on them, Not much goes on in Beechview. It's a nice area, but it's a bit of a ghost town.. for now. Who knows what the future may hold.

[pj3000]

(please, please tell me those aren't the original sphinx??? tell me that they are in a museum somewhere. lie if you have to.)

OK, I'll lie to you. Those are not the original Sphinx from the entrance to the Mosque...

[dugdogmaster]

http://www.siteselection.com/issues/2009/sep/cover/

Good read, in my opinion.

[Wiz Khalifa]

This site has an interesting database of new industial parks in the Pittsburgh Metro:

http://www.pittsburghprospector.com/ed.asp?cmd=findsites&county1=&thetype=vacantland

[Wiz Khalifa]

For those of you that still don't fully comprehend the importance of making downtown a bustling 24/7 place, there is this to help you take notice:


It's a very seeming middle-class kind of...everything closes early. The coffee shop closed at 6! It's a sleepy area, it seems. I love the Gothic architecture but it's all pretty middle America. That's my impression. It's Pittsburgh. It is what it is. People seem pretty nice if you engage them, pretty normal. The demographic is different than what I'm used to and the socio-economic scale is vastly different. I didn't realize how techy-Austin is till I got here."

"So we don't seem tech-y?" I ask.

"Nooo," she tells me. "It seems pretty simple here, sleepy. I asked some locals for directions and they didn't even know."

http://www.popcitymedia.com/features/worldviews0902.aspx


If we don't want ignorant visitors like this who never leave downtown to continue making publicized inaccurate sweeping generalizations of the entire city, then it remains imperative that downtown be developed out to its full potential in the coming years.

But you gotta love this idiotic tourist thinking a city is more "techy" just because they have newer architecture in their CBD. :koko:

[Juicedog1313]

For those of you that still don't fully comprehend the importance of making downtown a bustling 24/7 place, there is this to help you take notice:


:whisper:I think that you may be preaching to the converted. This is Skyscraperpage.com after all.

[beyondtheforest]

Why is downtown so neglected? I realize there have been efforts lately to restore and improve downtown Pittsburgh, but it seems few people who live in the city go there regularly. I think everyone is just stuck in their own little neighborhood. I think bringing more residents downtown will really help, but the problem is the new condos and apartments are way too expensive for the average Joe. We need housing downtown for people who make 30k a year, young people, etc.

There are a large number of underutilized historic high rises downtown that could be converted to affordable housing. Just my opinion!

[AaronPGH]

I don't go downtown because most of my "going out" is to venues with acts playing that I want to see. Downtown has a real lack of small, cutting edge music venues and bars that would host stuff. All of that exists currently in the east end, near people's homes.

If they built it, I would come.

Also, I looked at an apartment downtown. I toured the Century on 7th building...the supposedly "affordable" apartment building. Affordable it is not. They took major shortcuts on quality, wall thickness, etc, to attain their prices. And those prices do not come with a parking space either. It's an extra $200 a month for parking. When you add everything up, the monthly rent in that building is near $1100 for a 1 bedroom. I am paying that same amount for a gorgeous 2 bedroom w/ office in the south side. The choice is clear.

[hyperion1110]

For those of you that still don't fully comprehend the importance of making downtown a bustling 24/7 place, there is this to help you take notice:




http://www.popcitymedia.com/features/worldviews0902.aspx


If we don't want ignorant visitors like this who never leave downtown to continue making publicized inaccurate sweeping generalizations of the entire city, then it remains imperative that downtown be developed out to its full potential in the coming years.

But you gotta love this idiotic tourist thinking a city is more "techy" just because they have newer architecture in their CBD. :koko:

Yeah, this woman struck me as a complete idiot when I read the article. I don't know where she was, but there are several coffee shops that are open well after 6 PM, with others in the city open all night long. As for being "tech-y" (whatever that is supposed to mean), I don't think Austin is any more so than Pittsburgh. If anything, I would the nod to Pittsburgh on the tech front (though I'm sure Austin is a nice city).

As for Downtown going 24/7... I don't know if I think it's worth the effort. The neighborhood will become more nightlife-friendly as people continue to move there. But I don't think it can be made into a "destination" without having a few thousand more people living there; it's too geographically confined.

The only real problem I see with downtown is that its too compartmentalized. You have the cultural district, which is awesome, at one end. Point Park Univ./Duquesne/Art Institute at another end. Then there is a crap load of people living in and around gateway center. Unfortunately, there is a dead zone between all of them. Connecting the three areas should be a priority. Point Park seems to be working in that direction as it grows down Smithfield and Wood. Duquesne is finally coming down from the bluff, but needs to expand down Forbes towards downtown. The cultural district should spread down Wood and Smithfield, and meet Point Park halfway. And the residential areas growing around Fifth and Market Square need to connect with Gateway Center. Once those areas grow organically into one another, downtown will be quite an awesome place to live. But, until those dark and lifeless areas in the middle are filled with people, I don't see downtown becoming a truly 24/7 neighborhood.

Just my two cents.

[pj3000]

Why is downtown so neglected? I realize there have been efforts lately to restore and improve downtown Pittsburgh, but it seems few people who live in the city go there regularly. I think everyone is just stuck in their own little neighborhood. I think bringing more residents downtown will really help...

Y But I don't think it can be made into a "destination" without having a few thousand more people living there; it's too geographically confined.


It doesn't seem that it is being "neglected" any longer, given the number of projects currently undertaken there.

Pittsburgh has always been a rather insular, somewhat fractured, neighborhood-oriented city, each with its own individual "downtown". Pittsburgh has never been a city with a high residential component to its downtown like other eastern cities have had (downtown was not a place one wanted to live for most of the past century given downtown's function and the enormous levels of smoke). I've said it before on this forum numerous times... Downtown Pittsburgh is a fortress... guarded on two sides by rivers and on the other by a high hill and a highway. As hyperion states above, it's geographically confined from the rest of the city. It is simply just not that easy to get to. There is no natural flow into and out of the downtown area. There is really no street grid connecting downtown to the rest of the city.

Hopes for a more vibrant "24/7" downtown lie in connection to Oakland via a rail line, and the further development of the Hill/Uptown and into the Strip.

[cdc]

As for the development, while its true that the proposed height exceeded the zoning, CMU's tactics still stink. If there was a problem with the height, CMU should, and did, voice their concerns. In response, the height was lower, presumably with the input of CMU. Then they complain again, and it was lowered again. Now, at less than half the original size it should have been, it hasn't been built yet...CMU is gearing up to whine some more.

My view is that this is the way real estate business is done. It
isn't for the faint of heart. It isn't about honor or doing the right
thing, it is about money and getting what you want (within the
constraints of the law, usually). I don't have a problem with what
CMU is doing.

Clearly "less than half the original size" still excedes the zoning,
otherwise the developer wouldn't be back at the board again and
wouldn't have provided another opening for CMU to protest.



As for Pitt, let's not forget the battle it waged over that empty plot
of land behind Trees Hall (Robinson Court area). How many years has
that been sitting and undeveloped? Pitt made sure to protect its
interests in that area (and I support that), even if it delayed any
work being done up there for a long time. CMU is just doing the same
thing.

[Tombstoner]

... It [downtown] is simply just not that easy to get to. There is no natural flow into and out of the downtown area. There is really no street grid connecting downtown to the rest of the city.

Hopes for a more vibrant "24/7" downtown lie in connection to Oakland via a rail line, and the further development of the Hill/Uptown and into the Strip.

The busline from Oakland to Downtown is really excellent. When I visit Pittsburgh and stay in Oakland I jump on the bus for downtown (and back) until late in the evening. I'm not saying a rail line wouldn't be better, but I don't think Downtown can really be called "isolated."

[bruchaus]

I think the "cultural district" is great for the city, except i hate that they call it the "cultural district" its so f'n corny. its almost as if people need to be told what culture is in order to enjoy it. they really need to come up with a better name.

[Wiz Khalifa]

The busline from Oakland to Downtown is really excellent. When I visit Pittsburgh and stay in Oakland I jump on the bus for downtown (and back) until late in the evening. I'm not saying a rail line wouldn't be better, but I don't think Downtown can really be called "isolated."

Agreed, I also don't buy the "downtown is geographically isolate from the rest of the city argument" as for a reason why it can't be more vibrant. The connection to the north shore is almost grid-like with the number of bridges there and it is a short walk across.

The highway between downtown the strip and uptown is raised most of the way, and can be be built under toward the strip and even built over (recalling the plan for the park cap over I-579 connecting downtown to uptown).

I think that the dead zone in the center of downtown that someone mentioned above is the most at fault here. If residential is gradually built in from all three sides towards the middle, then things could begin to drastically change. Piatt Place is a really good start, however much more affordable units need to be built in that area.

[pj3000]

The busline from Oakland to Downtown is really excellent. When I visit Pittsburgh and stay in Oakland I jump on the bus for downtown (and back) until late in the evening. I'm not saying a rail line wouldn't be better, but I don't think Downtown can really be called "isolated."

The busline works okay between downtown and Oakland, but it does absolutely nothing for development of the neighborhood in between. Downtown remains an isolated center from Oakland and beyond with what has become a virtual urban wasteland in between.

Downtown Pittsburgh IS isolated from its neighborhoods. That is a geographic fact. It's true that bridges connect downtown to the north and south sides, but a handful of bridges cannot compete with the natural barriers to transit that are the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers. Urban redev and transportation projects further cut off downtown from points east with the civic arena/Lower hill destruction and Crosstown Blvd./579 (this is why they are proposing to once again connect downtown by building atop Crosstown for the benefit of both downtown and the Hill/new arena development).

The isolation of Pittsburgh's downtown is not necessarily a bad thing overall. It makes Pittsburgh unique and provides for a very compact downtown area. But it has been a hindrance to residential growth in the golden triangle. Hopefully, that is changing.

[pj3000]

The connection to the north shore is almost grid-like with the number of bridges there and it is a short walk across.
.

"almost grid-like" is really stretching it. There are 3 bridges, each terminating in a decidedly non-residential neighborhood with a grid pattern that was destroyed long ago.

[Juicedog1313]

Urban redev and transportation projects further cut off downtown from points east with the civic arena/Lower hill destruction and Crosstown Blvd./579 (this is why they are proposing to once again connect downtown by building atop Crosstown for the benefit of both downtown and the Hill/new arena development).



Yes!!!... the Mellon Arena and the sea of asphalt that it sits on is a major hinderance for activity flowing into Downtown. Along with Crosstown Blvd, that area is a Berlin Wall for street boppers. Hopefully they redevelop that area with a Hill/Downtown connection in mind. But the Hill District wouldn't help much anyway. The way that the Hill is being redeveloped is a friggin' shame. I could go on for hours about the mistakes that are being made on the hill right now.

[Juicedog1313]

I think the "cultural district" is great for the city, except i hate that they call it the "cultural district" its so f'n corny. its almost as if people need to be told what culture is in order to enjoy it. they really need to come up with a better name.

I always thought it was lame, too.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Yes!!!... the Mellon Arena and the sea of asphalt that it sits on is a major hinderance for activity flowing into Downtown. Along with Crosstown Blvd, that area is a Berlin Wall for street boppers. Hopefully they redevelop that area with a Hill/Downtown connection in mind. But the Hill District wouldn't help much anyway. The way that the Hill is being redeveloped is a friggin' shame. I could go on for hours about the mistakes that are being made on the hill right now.

Could you elaborate a little on that? I don't see what else can be done much better than what they are currently doing there. Maybe if they added a small hill business district that stretched up from downtown, it would improve the accessibility of the neighborhood.

[Wiz Khalifa]

"almost grid-like" is really stretching it. There are 3 bridges, each terminating in a decidedly non-residential neighborhood with a grid pattern that was destroyed long ago.

I don't quite understand what you mean by the grid being destroyed, unless you are talking about the Allegheny center, which I agree should be taken out. As for the residential aspect, there are new condos right across the river from the convention center as well as residences throughout the cultural district.

If they ever end up building Riverparc, the whole dynamic of that area will change. A non-residential district it will be no more. There is no single project that will have a greater impact on a neighborhood than Riverparc would have on revitalizing downtown, in my opinion.

[bradjl2009]

I don't quite understand what you mean by the grid being destroyed, unless you are talking about the Allegheny center, which I agree should be taken out. As for the residential aspect, there are new condos right across the river from the convention center as well as residences throughout the cultural district.

If they ever end up building Riverparc, the whole dynamic of that area will change. A non-residential district it will be no more. There is no single project that will have a greater impact on a neighborhood than Riverparc would have on revitalizing downtown, in my opinion.
If only that was built................ Downtown would have had a truly residential section that would also be able to attract people from other areas of Allegheny County. There are already a lot of apartments in that area from new development and the renovations of upper floors of older buildings on Penn Ave. I really hope the Cultural Trust makes an announcement soon on RiverParc seeing that the economy is coming out of the bottom now.

[Suffice]

Just an idea i just came up with... How about, given the terrain elevation of the Hill Area just northeast of the new stadium, they build a tunnel from the stadium area to Oakland, making it wide enough for car traffic and trams. This way you'll have quick access from Oakland to DT without having to circumvent the entire area. This would probably be a lot less costly than revitalizing the entire hill area, and building a major road from Oakland to DT on top of the hill

[Evergrey]

I agree completely with pj3000's characterization of Downtown Pittsburgh as an "isolated fortress" despite its central location and central position within the regional economy. From a geographic perspective, it is an island... surrounded by rivers on three sides and a web of urban-fabric-shredding highways and a big hill to the east. Furthermore... when you cross the rivers from Downtown... you end up in rather unspectacular and unpopulated urban environments... to the south/west is a slender strip of land wide enough for nothing more than a single roadway (the ultra-depressing West Carson St.) and to the north is a slender redeveloping "sports/entertainment/gambling" district divided from the Allegheny Center-dominated lower North Side by a web of highways.

To the east is Downtown's only land connection to the city... and there is a sophisticated network of poorly designed highways acting as a moat... beyond that moat are three decrepit neighborhoods... Strip District, Hill District and Uptown... what we love about the Strip District is really just confined to Penn Ave. from 17th through 22nd or so... 5 blocks... a sea of parking lots destroys the urban environment of the Strip next to Downtown... and a desolate stretch of shitty warehouses and post-apocalyptic randomness extends for about 15 blocks east of the "nice" part of the Strip District... plus nobody lives here! The Hill District is well known for its socio-economic decline and structural devastation... and lower third being completely erased for an arena and its parking lots (which is why it is so important Mellon Arena is destroyed... and not preserved as some sort of totem to past urban redevelopment failures... this is a major opportunity to reconnect Downtown to the rest of the city)... Uptown has had similar problems and is largely dominated by hospital parking lots... nobody lives there either. If you ever try walking from the East End to Downtown... it's VERY obvious how the city's mid-section "between the rivers" is so devastated and hinders the cohesion and function of the city.

I do think this reality has a negative impact on residential, retail and entertainment components of Downtown... and it also demonstrates how it's just as important and useful to develop new market-rate residential stock in the neighborhoods adjacent to Downtown.

[pj3000]

I agree completely with pj3000's characterization of Downtown Pittsburgh as an "isolated fortress" despite its central location and central position within the regional economy. From a geographic perspective, it is an island... surrounded by rivers on three sides and a web of urban-fabric-shredding highways and a big hill to the east. Furthermore... when you cross the rivers from Downtown... you end up in rather unspectacular and unpopulated urban environments... to the south/west is a slender strip of land wide enough for nothing more than a single roadway (the ultra-depressing West Carson St.) and to the north is a slender redeveloping "sports/entertainment/gambling" district divided from the Allegheny Center-dominated lower North Side by a web of highways.

To the east is Downtown's only land connection to the city... and there is a sophisticated network of poorly designed highways acting as a moat... beyond that moat are three decrepit neighborhoods... Strip District, Hill District and Uptown... what we love about the Strip District is really just confined to Penn Ave. from 17th through 22nd or so... 5 blocks... a sea of parking lots destroys the urban environment of the Strip next to Downtown... and a desolate stretch of shitty warehouses and post-apocalyptic randomness extends for about 15 blocks east of the "nice" part of the Strip District... plus nobody lives here! The Hill District is well known for its socio-economic decline and structural devastation... and lower third being completely erased for an arena and its parking lots (which is why it is so important Mellon Arena is destroyed... and not preserved as some sort of totem to past urban redevelopment failures... this is a major opportunity to reconnect Downtown to the rest of the city)... Uptown has had similar problems and is largely dominated by hospital parking lots... nobody lives there either. If you ever try walking from the East End to Downtown... it's VERY obvious how the city's mid-section "between the rivers" is so devastated and hinders the cohesion and function of the city.

I do think this reality has a negative impact on residential, retail and entertainment components of Downtown... and it also demonstrates how it's just as important and useful to develop new market-rate residential stock in the neighborhoods adjacent to Downtown.

Yes.

[pj3000]

I don't quite understand what you mean by the grid being destroyed, unless you are talking about the Allegheny center, which I agree should be taken out.


The grid (meaning street pattern and the accompanying neighborhood) was destroyed long ago. The Allegheny Center/Square project and its strangling street pattern alone destroyed around 600 buildings on about 85 acres of land directly across the river from downtown... 600 buildings! To put this plainly, an entire section of the city was demolished, one that included a high residential population close to downtown (like the lower Hill, but much larger; those were the only two residential districts that were adjacent to downtown Pittsburgh and both were destroyed, further isolating downtown from its citizens).

[Tombstoner]

The busline works okay between downtown and Oakland, but it does absolutely nothing for development of the neighborhood in between. Downtown remains an isolated center from Oakland and beyond with what has become a virtual urban wasteland in between.

Downtown Pittsburgh IS isolated from its neighborhoods. That is a geographic fact. It's true that bridges connect downtown to the north and south sides, but a handful of bridges cannot compete with the natural barriers to transit that are the Allegheny and Monongahela Rivers. Urban redev and transportation projects further cut off downtown from points east with the civic arena/Lower hill destruction and Crosstown Blvd./579 (this is why they are proposing to once again connect downtown by building atop Crosstown for the benefit of both downtown and the Hill/new arena development).

The isolation of Pittsburgh's downtown is not necessarily a bad thing overall. It makes Pittsburgh unique and provides for a very compact downtown area. But it has been a hindrance to residential growth in the golden triangle. Hopefully, that is changing.

It might depend on what we mean by "isolated" -- if you mean "not as frequently accessed from adjacent neighborhoods, due to desolate pockets in those neighborhoods" then, yes, it is isolated. If you mean isolated in the sense that "there are no good means of getting to and from the area from surrounding parts of the city" (which was, I think, your original claim) then I disagree. Using the first definition of isolation, the answer is urban renewal, using the second definition, the solution is better transit. My point was that I don't think transit is the crux of the problem; if nicer surrounding areas created a pleasant urban transition from the East End to Downtown, I think better transit would naturally follow.

[UrbaniDesDev]

Could you elaborate a little on that? I don't see what else can be done much better than what they are currently doing there. Maybe if they added a small hill business district that stretched up from downtown, it would improve the accessibility of the neighborhood.


There was a chance to have a business district thru the Hill, along Center Avenue. Instead they chopped the wide boulevard of Center Avenue off right at the top, at Crawford. It oddly and abruptly becomes a narrow street lined with single family residences. Now the new arena fronts on Center Avenue and there will be little positive effect felt east of Crawford Avenue on Center. Heavy traffic goes better with apartment/condo buildings than single family homes, and there's going to be heavy traffic.

I'm hoping they reintroduce Wylie Avenue through the arena land. I guess there is nothing left of the original, historic street and it's musical past, but putting it back in would be a good homage. Perhaps creating a center business district there.

I, for one, have never been a big fan of the development on the Hill. Yes, it has been successful and I actually wouldn't mind living in one of them. I feel it should of had a more dense urban feel. More low rise mixed with some high rise residential would have been more appropriate. Particularly along Center Avenue. The entire Hill District has amazing views and should be exploited. I'm hoping that what will be eventually built on all that Mellon Arena land

[mackb]

Sorry to steer away from where the posts were going, but...

Did anybody notice that the Mon Wharf Trail seems to be moving along? Looks like the design changed from the original ... much more plain.


Also, looks like there's a Market Square blog up http://marketsquarepgh.blogspot.com/

Looks like it had good info to post a first and then died off... mentioned a few new stores going up in the area and a new restaurant, if anyone is interested.

[pj3000]

It might depend on what we mean by "isolated" -- if you mean "not as frequently accessed from adjacent neighborhoods, due to desolate pockets in those neighborhoods" then, yes, it is isolated. If you mean isolated in the sense that "there are no good means of getting to and from the area from surrounding parts of the city" (which was, I think, your original claim) then I disagree. Using the first definition of isolation, the answer is urban renewal, using the second definition, the solution is better transit. My point was that I don't think transit is the crux of the problem; if nicer surrounding areas created a pleasant urban transition from the East End to Downtown, I think better transit would naturally follow.

Both of the definitions you offer are valid in the case of downtown Pittsburgh; and I addressed both in my previous posts on downtown's isolation. It is a fact that downtown is cut off from its neighborhoods (Evergrey very succinctly demonstrated my initial points) and it is a fact that Pittsburgh has long had a transit problem into and out of its urban core (due primarily to its incredibly challenging topography).

Or, would "nicer surrounding areas creating a pleasant urban transition" naturally follow from transit? That's usually the way it goes. As a professor of mine once said, "You've gotta be able to get there first". Transit may not be the crux of the problem, but it usually plays a part one way or another.

Either way, I agree that a greater emphasis on residential development downtown will provide a positive impact all around.

[Wiz Khalifa]

There was a chance to have a business district thru the Hill, along Center Avenue. Instead they chopped the wide boulevard of Center Avenue off right at the top, at Crawford. It oddly and abruptly becomes a narrow street lined with single family residences. Now the new arena fronts on Center Avenue and there will be little positive effect felt east of Crawford Avenue on Center. Heavy traffic goes better with apartment/condo buildings than single family homes, and there's going to be heavy traffic.

I'm hoping they reintroduce Wylie Avenue through the arena land. I guess there is nothing left of the original, historic street and it's musical past, but putting it back in would be a good homage. Perhaps creating a center business district there.

I, for one, have never been a big fan of the development on the Hill. Yes, it has been successful and I actually wouldn't mind living in one of them. I feel it should of had a more dense urban feel. More low rise mixed with some high rise residential would have been more appropriate. Particularly along Center Avenue. The entire Hill District has amazing views and should be exploited. I'm hoping that what will be eventually built on all that Mellon Arena land


Those are some good points, looking at Google street view right now, where do they plan on having businesses take up shop in the newly built hill? I hope they don't expect all of those residents to have to bus to other parts of the city to buy anything, even though it is in such a centrally located place.

[Steel Boy]

I think the reason that Centre Avenue abruptly goes from four to two lanes at Freedom Corner is because the community drew a line in the sand in the early 60s. I remember seeing a photo from that era with demonstrators and a big sign behind them that said "Not an inch more!" Most of the neighborhood was bulldozed with no community input back then and the neighborhood saw what was happening and said that there would be no more destruction beyond that point. There was supposed to be a big performing ats center where the Crawford-Roberts townhouses are now and some other high-rises like Washington Plaza. There are renderings of the proposed development in Stefan Lorant's "Pittsburgh: The Story of an American City" - first edition from 1964. Most of that stuff was never built.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Sorry to steer away from where the posts were going, but...

Did anybody notice that the Mon Wharf Trail seems to be moving along? Looks like the design changed from the original ... much more plain.


Also, looks like there's a Market Square blog up http://marketsquarepgh.blogspot.com/

Looks like it had good info to post a first and then died off... mentioned a few new stores going up in the area and a new restaurant, if anyone is interested.


Do you have a link to this change? I really liked the floating barge part of the design, I hope it is still in the works.

[mackb]

New Mon Wharf trail pics I found on WDUQ News' facebook page. They also have some nice pics of the inside of the new Children's Hospital and it looks pretty impressive. The old pics of the Mon Wharf are from Riverlife's webpage which looks like it hasn't been updated in forever. Looks like the floating barge is out.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1329383&id=56314884576

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1329384&id=56314884576

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1329381&id=56314884576

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1329382&id=56314884576

I'm not much of a blogger, so if the images don't show up, I won't be surprised.


You can find the original plans at http://www.riverlifetaskforce.org/projects/monwharf/

[mackb]

And I failed at the pics it seems, so let me try the WDUQ link to the page...
http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=56314884576

First page has pics of Consol's Arena top off, second has pics of Mon Wharf