[dugdogmaster]

I can't wait for that concrete behemoth to be transformed:hell: !

[AaronPGH]

So this has to be about the 50th time this project has come back to life. This is a serious chunk of change though! Maybe it's for real this time...



Pittsburgh region gets $28 million to plan maglev project
Thursday, September 10, 2009
By James O'Toole, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Federal Railroad Administration has awarded a $28 million grant for preliminary work on the long-planned Pennsylvania High-Speed Maglev project.

The grant was announced this afternoon by Sens. Arlen Specer and Bob Casey, along with Rep. Mike Doyle. The project, billed as the first phase of a cross-state high speed network, would start at the Pittsburgh International Airport and travel to Downtown Pitsburgh, then to Monroeville and on to Greensburg. The grant is the largest federal commitment to the project so far, but construction would still be well into the future. The funds to be released by the FRA are for planning and other preliminary work.

"This $28 million award is the most significant development in the 29 years we've been working on Maglev," Mr. Specter said in the release announcing the project.

"The vision is to have a 250 mile-an-hour train traveling from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia with intermediate stops. Such a train would be a tremendous economic boon with thousands of new jobs in the steel and construction industry and would meet our increasing demand for transportation, reduce highway congestion, improve air quality and reduce our dependence on foreign oil."

"This project has the chance to help establish a world-class transportation system in Pennsylvania," Mr Casey said. "This initiative has the potential to spur job creation while helping to improve our environment and bolster the Commonwealth's long-term economic competitiveness."

"I've been working to build a mag-lev system in Pennsylvania throughout my service in Congress," said Congressman Mike Doyle. "I believe it could be a major new engine for job creation and economic growth in our region. It's great to see all our hard work paying off."

Maglev Inc. of McKeesport, the developer, has spent more than $27 million in federal and state funds since the mid-1990s. The group is close to finishing an environmental impact study on the project.

More details in tomorrow's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
Politics Editor James O'Toole can be reached at jotoole@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1562.
First published on September 10, 2009 at 5:38 pm

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09253/997097-100.stm?cmpid=news.xml#ixzz0QkdsfBIL

[mackb]

So who is going to get some sort of tracks from the airport to downtown first... Maglev or the Port Authority?

[EventHorizon]

Pittsburgh region gets $28 million to plan maglev project

Pretty cool news!

I thought this was interesting... it's a picture of a proposed Maglev station in Pittsburgh:

http://www.maglevinc.com/images/Steelplaza.gif

courtesy of Maglev Inc. of McKeesport (http://www.maglevinc.com/)

[dugdogmaster]

Ok, is this thing seriously gaining some steam this time?

[AaronPGH]

So who is going to get some sort of tracks from the airport to downtown first... Maglev or the Port Authority?

This is the reason I sort of hate this maglev project. Port Authority needs to get there first. Such a waste of money if the north shore connector doesn't make it to the airport.

[Tombstoner]

Does anyone have a link to the proposed route of the Maglev through metro Pittsburgh? I'm curious as to whether it would stop anywhere in the East End prior to heading out towards Monroeville. Given that Oakland is the third largest business district in the state, it would seem like a missed opportunity not to stop there.

[dugdogmaster]

This is the reason I sort of hate this maglev project. Port Authority needs to get there first. Such a waste of money if the north shore connector doesn't make it to the airport.

The Port Authority is working in conjunction with the Mag Lev project.

[Tombstoner]

Do you have a link to this change? I really liked the floating barge part of the design, I hope it is still in the works.

Yeah, the barge was a nice feature.

[AaronPGH]

The Port Authority is working in conjunction with the Mag Lev project.

Really? Then why pass off their north shore connector as an airport line when Maglev will be taking care of that? It'd be redundant.

[pj3000]

Does anyone have a link to the proposed route of the Maglev through metro Pittsburgh? I'm curious as to whether it would stop anywhere in the East End prior to heading out towards Monroeville. Given that Oakland is the third largest business district in the state, it would seem like a missed opportunity not to stop there.

Maglev is a high-speed train (reaching 250+ mph). From what I understand, it is not being proposed, nor feasible, to make frequent stops. I think it's just airport, downtown, Monroeville, Greensburg.

[pj3000]

Really? Then why pass off their north shore connector as an airport line when Maglev will be taking care of that? It'd be redundant.

Again, Maglev is a high-speed line, and not redundant with a light rail system that makes frequent, in-town stops.

The Pennsylvania Project's route will connect the Pittsburgh International Airport to Downtown Pittsburgh, and the Eastern suburbs of Monroeville and Greensburg. The route will cover 54 miles and will take approximately 35 minutes including stops from start to end. Estimated trip times between Stations are as follows:

Airport (landside terminal) to Airport (Enlow Road) 3 min.
Airport (Enlow Road) to Downtown 8 min.
Downtown to Monroeville area 11 min.
Monroeville to Greensburg area 10 min.


http://www.maglevpa.com/images/overall_map.jpg

[AaronPGH]

Again, Maglev is a high-speed line, and not redundant with a light rail system that makes frequent, in-town stops.

So they are planning on eventually having both Maglev and light rail lines to the airport? It seems like overkill to me with so few passengers at PIT anymore.

[dugdogmaster]

Really? Then why pass off their north shore connector as an airport line when Maglev will be taking care of that? It'd be redundant.

Yes. What PJ said.

[Tombstoner]

Maglev is a high-speed train (reaching 250+ mph). From what I understand, it is not being proposed, nor feasible, to make frequent stops. I think it's just airport, downtown, Monroeville, Greensburg.

I understand that and can understand why it is less-than-desirable to make a stop so close to Downtown. It does seem like a stop in Oakland might be warrranted given its economic significance, however. Monroeville on the other hand....:shrug:

[pj3000]

So they are planning on eventually having both Maglev and light rail lines to the airport? It seems like overkill to me with so few passengers at PIT anymore.

I understand that and can understand why it is less-than-desirable to make a stop so close to Downtown. It does seem like a stop in Oakland might be warrranted given its economic significance, however. Monroeville on the other hand....:shrug:

The Port Authority and Maglev probably don't know what they're going to do exactly, yet.

I think what we need to remember is that the Maglev proposal for Pittsburgh is being developed as a feasibility test for long distance (40 to 600 mile trips), high-speed transrapid travel in the US. The Pittsburgh test market is to demonstrate its viability for intercity travel, once system extension occurs. It is not intended to serve the commuter purpose that a light rail system does.

[PGHFan]

The city could not have looked better last night during the NFL concert at Point State Park. Basking in the dusk sunlight, the downtown buildings were beautiful. The flyovers were also wonderful. A great great high definition moment!

[hyperion1110]

The Port Authority and Maglev probably don't know what they're going to do exactly, yet.

I think what we need to remember is that the Maglev proposal for Pittsburgh is being developed as a feasibility test for long distance (40 to 600 mile trips), high-speed transrapid travel in the US. The Pittsburgh test market is to demonstrate its viability for intercity travel, once system extension occurs. It is not intended to serve the commuter purpose that a light rail system does.

Precisely, pj3000. The benefit Maglev would bring to Pittsburgh is calculable! If they build the demonstration project here, and if its successful, Pittsburgh will become the nexus of a transportation system connecting the East Coast to the Greak Lakes region. With some 200 million people in these regions, Pittsburgh would have literally thousands of people passing through every day.

I like the location of the proposed Maglev stop downtown. But would it be interesting to reuse Mellon Arena as a station? I say this for two reasons. First, the station currently proposed seems to straddle Crosstown Blvd, which is where the park joining downtown and the hill is proposed. Personally, I think that park is an outstanding idea, both for the green space added and for the more intimate connection is brings between the two neighborhoods. As for my second point, to be honest, I like the Mellon Arena. I think it's a fascinating building, worthy of preservation by itself. Now, by all means, fill in the seas of asphalt with some high-density development. But the arena structure itself is marvelous to me. With a little remodeling, and perhaps a boarding platform annex, it would make a fantastic, retro-looking station for a new maglev system.

[AaronPGH]

Precisely, pj3000. The benefit Maglev would bring to Pittsburgh is calculable! If they build the demonstration project here, and if its successful, Pittsburgh will become the nexus of a transportation system connecting the East Coast to the Greak Lakes region. With some 200 million people in these regions, Pittsburgh would have literally thousands of people passing through every day.

But what about all the national HSR plans that are much further along already? What good is testing out Maglev for possible nationwide adoption if we've already spent our money building traditional high speed rail. This just sounds like a lot of competing plans and overlap going on.

I say pick one and stick to it. Why burn money planning all of these duplicate systems? We need one comprehensive plan.

Also, I LOVE your idea of using Mellon Arena as a station (if this whole thing happens). Why not make that an actual full scale transit hub while we're at it? Re-route the busway through it somehow too.

[Tombstoner]

The Port Authority and Maglev probably don't know what they're going to do exactly, yet.

I think what we need to remember is that the Maglev proposal for Pittsburgh is being developed as a feasibility test for long distance (40 to 600 mile trips), high-speed transrapid travel in the US. The Pittsburgh test market is to demonstrate its viability for intercity travel, once system extension occurs. It is not intended to serve the commuter purpose that a light rail system does.

I'm really not disagreeing with you on the goals of the proposal, so much as wondering out-loud whether Oakland makes sense within the Maglev framework itself. I understand that viability means maximizing use between cities (not as a commuter line). Frequency would never make it compete with local transit and, presumably, costs would discourage people from using it as such. But Pittsburgh presents an interesting dilemma--you have what is essentially PA's third largest economic hub (in some senses, a city) 3-4 miles away from its second largest hub (Downtown). If Oakland-Downtown transportation were seamless and everyone from the university/research community could zip downtown to catch the Maglev, that would reduce the problem, but even then, you are adding a lot of time to a means of transportation predicated in the idea of saving time. I would think that "viability" would entail tapping the important Oakland market for cross-state travel. If Oakland were a city rather than a neighborhood, would that change anything (a thought experiment: would a high-speed train from San Francisco to Sacramento stop in "that other Oakland," or would it assume that folks from Berkeley would take BART into SF to catch it?)? Just sayin'...

[pj3000]

I'm really not disagreeing with you on the goals of the proposal, so much as wondering out-loud whether Oakland makes sense within the Maglev framework itself. I understand that viability means maximizing use between cities (not as a commuter line). Frequency would never make it compete with local transit and, presumably, costs would discourage people from using it as such. But Pittsburgh presents an interesting dilemma--you have what is essentially PA's third largest economic hub (in some senses, a city) 3-4 miles away from its second largest hub (Downtown). If Oakland-Downtown transportation were seamless and everyone from the university/research community could zip downtown to catch the Maglev, that would reduce the problem, but even then, you are adding a lot of time to a means of transportation predicated in the idea of saving time. I would think that "viability" would entail tapping the important Oakland market for cross-state travel. If Oakland were a city rather than a neighborhood, would that change anything (a thought experiment: would a high-speed train from San Francisco to Sacramento stop in "that other Oakland," or would it assume that folks from Berkeley would take BART into SF to catch it?)? Just sayin'...

I know what your saying, Tombstoner. I think that it just comes down to a matter of efficiency; meaning that there cannot be two high-speed transrapid stations within a couple miles of each other. In this case it would be, either build a station downtown or build a station in Oakland... can't do both.

Like you said, if Oakland were its own city located in say, Monroeville, then the dilemma is solved.

[Steel Boy]

I don't see Maglev ever being built between downtown and Oakland. As I understand it, it's an elevated system that needs pylons and some right-of-way. I can't see how any neighborhood is going to welcome what is esseantially an elevated train going through.

I actually don't see Maglev being built here at all. How much might it cost to acquire the land? How long will the lawsuits go on about eminent domain? How will a routing be decided when nobody would want it whizzing past their home when the only stations are downtown, Monroeville, Greensburg, and the airport? It's really not feasible.

[Gilamonster]

FINALLY! A refreshingly realistic viewpoint about Maglev. Thank you Steel Boy. :cheers:

[PA Pride]

I used to be a big Maglev booster; But I have changed my stance. I just don't see how it could possibly end up being cost effective.

[Wiz Khalifa]

I just don't understand all of the sudden focus and fixation on Maglev again, when the White House recently released an comprehensive HSR plan for the United States. Last time I checked, these two concepts were two completely incompatible methods of doing the same thing.

I read somewhere that China already tested Maglev vs. HSR and ended up deciding that HSR was still much more cost effective, albeit a bit slower than its raised-track cousin.

So combining that news with the White House press release on the HSR network, either the gov is unaware of the Chinese study or this is a last ditch effort to explore all possible alternatives until the inevitable focus is completely shifted toward conventional HSR. I am guessing it is the latter but who knows.

[Grimacista]

The Maglev is just going to be a huge boondoggle and cash pit that will never come about. The money that has been spent on this and will continue to be spent on it could be better served updating rail infrastructure in the region that is compatible with rail around the country.

And, seriously, if this thing has 4 stops, how many people need to go from the Airport to Greensburg every day?

[bruchaus]

This is where we're heading:

http://www2.pjstar.com/images/uploads/simpsons_monorail.gif

[pj3000]

...

[pj3000]

And, seriously, if this thing has 4 stops, how many people need to go from the Airport to Greensburg every day?


Right... but again, that's not really the overall purpose of the proposed Maglev development. See above.


I'm not sure right now if I support this thing or not. But, I think we all need to try to understand the big picture of a national transportation system and realize that Maglev is really not about solving Pittsburgh's transit problems specifically.

[dugdogmaster]

This is where we're heading:

http://www2.pjstar.com/images/uploads/simpsons_monorail.gif

One of the funniest episodes, ever! Imo, at least.

[Grimacista]

I understand that the Maglev is not about solving PGH's transportation problems but this project just is a waste of money.

How many millions are they going to pour into this project to realize that it is cost-prohibitive on a regional/national scale? That money would be much better served if the feds wrote a check for some engineers to re-design rail curves in the mountains to allow higher speeds, or by acquiring more land for railroad rights of way to build an additional track.

[hyperion1110]

I am no economist; nor am I a transportation expert. However, from a commonsense approach, there are two important points to address. The first point, concerning economics, is that this system is not cost-effective. While I agree that the first few projects will be quite expensive compared to traditional high speed rail, I think it's unreasonable to assume that a concerted government effort to build a national maglev system would be more expensive than HSR. Either endeavor, HSR or maglev, done on a national scale, would be a MASSIVE investment, and almost certainly of equal magnitude. Now, my second point concerns physics. Presumably, the proposed maglev system would use superconductors to provide both lift and some portion of the propulsion. As superconductors have zero electrical resistance, every amp of current put into the system would go directly to lift/propulsion...secondary systems notwithstanding, maglev would be 100% efficient at converting electrical energy into mechanical energy.

So, it's like this. First, a national maglev system really wouldn't be more expensive than HSR to build. And second, the cost of operation should, in principle, be significantly reduced. Moreover, maglev has several advantages that HSR is unlikely to equal. For instance, maglev, as planned, is notably faster. Indeed, there is no reason why maglev could not be significantly faster. This means lower transit times, increasing competition for rapid long-distance travel, thereby lower the cost of such transportation. Maglev is also capable of handling higher grades than HSR. A national rail system will eventually have to cross some very large mountains, so that higher grade potential is a strong point in favor of maglev. Lastly, HSR tends to be deisel powered, as I understand it. And as we all know, internal combustion is not very efficient at converting chemical energy into mechanical energy. Even if the HSR would be electricially powered, which would add significantly to the cost of the system, it is still grossly inefficient because of friction and longer routes (because of a lesser grade capability).

In short, maglev and HSR should have cost parity when constructing the system. And maglev would be faster and cheaper to run. To me, the choice is obvious.

[qwho]

Weird, I was reading this forum, and I got this in an email from corporate.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4678/clipimage001ie.jpg

[Wiz Khalifa]

In short, maglev and HSR should have cost parity when constructing the system. And maglev would be faster and cheaper to run. To me, the choice is obvious.

If this is true than I am wondering why the Chinese, after testing a Maglev system, decided to go back to what they concluded was more cost effective regular HSR. I'm thinking that maybe the upfront costs are so much higher for Maglev, that it would take way to long for the greater efficiency of the system to make up the cost difference.

[Steel Boy]

Oh no! Another rail proposal! This one is for the existing freight line that goes under Oakland, I believe. Isn't Port Authority instituting a new bus route in their transit reorganization plan that will go from Lawrenceville to Oakland? And it will actually stop on the street.

[Tombstoner]

:previous: Maybe a naive question: would they have to use the heavy rail that's already there or might they be thinking of using the right-of-way for light rail, in which case, it could be a great way to establish a section of an eventual Downtown to Oakland extention of the T?

[Evergrey]

Weird, I was reading this forum, and I got this in an email from corporate.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4678/clipimage001ie.jpg

I hope this isn't the Morgantown PRT idea

Does anybody at the city/county/state level know what they're doing with rail? seems like everybody's just scrambling desperately now that the potential of federal money is there

[Grimacista]

:previous: Maybe a naive question: would they have to use the heavy rail that's already there or might they be thinking of using the right-of-way for light rail, in which case, it could be a great way to establish a section of an eventual Downtown to Oakland extention of the T?

That rail section goes through the Neville Street Tunnel which is only wide enough for the existing one rail track.

[Steel Boy]

Check out Port Authority's new master plan to reorganize the transit routes. They will start running a series of "rapid" buses with limited stops between downtown and the east end. The buses will be articulated and of a distinct color to designate which line it is. Cleveland is doing this with the Euclid Avenue corridor. It's like a rail line for a fraction of the cost and with much more flexibility. There is already a ton of bus service between Oakland and downtown Pittsburgh with daytime service every few minutes. Although a rail link between those two points would be nice, I don't see it happening, especially since the feds do not pick up most of the cost anymore.

[hyperion1110]

If this is true than I am wondering why the Chinese, after testing a Maglev system, decided to go back to what they concluded was more cost effective regular HSR. I'm thinking that maybe the upfront costs are so much higher for Maglev, that it would take way to long for the greater efficiency of the system to make up the cost difference.

Despite all of the bravado (which sadly comes primarily from ignorant western journalists), China is still a very poor country. They're GDP per capita is about 20% that of the US. They're 1.3 billion population gives them a total GDP that is among the highest in the world. But that number is next to meaningless.

China building a maglev system is nothing but a status symbol, much like they're attempts to mimic US and Russia space capabilities. It goes along with the attitude that, "Gosh darn it! We're just as good as the West! And here's our shiny rocket, built from stolen US designs and built by slave labor!" As I said, the key to understanding China is that everything is bravado. They couldn't build maglev not because it's prohibitively expensive, but because they don't have the technical or industrial capability to build a national system. In fact, if I am not mistaken, the Chinese maglev system was designed and built by Germans.

[pj3000]

Is Maglev an efficient system answer to America's transportation needs?

Is a high-speed rail system more feasible in meeting these needs?

These are the questions that need to be answered. It is really not a matter of cost, in my opinion. Both systems will cost billions and billions (remember that America has never had a high-speed system; we invested in highways after WWII while Europe and Japan invested in railways). They way I view it is, does America invest billions in 1940s-era technology or invest in technological advancement?

But first, we have to figure out if Maglev's operation is practical for the lengths of travel for which it is being proposed.

[pj3000]

There is already a ton of bus service between Oakland and downtown Pittsburgh with daytime service every few minutes.

Every few minutes is kinda stretching it a bit. It's quite possible to stand for 20+ minutes without any buses you need passing, whether you are going inbound or outbound. Then, all of a sudden a 59U, 61 A B C D and F, etc. are all right behind each other. It is a terribly inefficient system between downtown and Oakland overall, especially given the fact that is only a few miles.

I welcome the addition of these "express" buses. We shall see how effective they are...

[hyperion1110]

Every few minutes is kinda stretching it a bit. It's quite possible to stand for 20+ minutes without any buses you need passing, whether you are going inbound or outbound. Then, all of a sudden a 59U, 61 A B C D and F, etc. are all right behind each other. It is a terribly inefficient system between downtown and Oakland overall, especially given the fact that is only a few miles.

I welcome the addition of these "express" buses. We shall see how effective they are...

Heck yeah! Nothing ticks me off more than the buses through Oakland. It's like they're all scared of something do they huddle together. You miss one, you miss them all for like 20+ minutes!

[Evergrey]

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2009/09/14/daily15.html

Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 12:18pm EDT

Peduto calls for neighborhood master plan in wake of hotel dispute between Craig Street business owners, CMU

Pittsburgh Business Times - by Tim Schooley

Pittsburgh City Councilman Bill Peduto pledged to establish a master plan for a key stretch of Forbes Avenue in Oakland this week in a letter he sent to Craig Street business owners who have expressed frustration over delays for a hotel near the corner of their business district.

Last month, an ad-hoc group called the Craig Street Businesses of Oakland sent a letter to Peduto and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl protesting the role Carnegie Mellon University has played in delaying the development of the proposed Museum Park Hotel slated for a former gas station site near the CMU campus.

The business owners claim that Carnegie Mellon has come out against the hotel plan after originally supporting it because it has bought all the property surrounding the location and needs the hotel site for its own plans. (See related story)

In a letter dated Sept. 14, Peduto expressed a need for a larger master plan that can incorporate the needs of all parties.

“… It is evident that there is a great deal of change occurring on Forbes Avenue and Craig Street,” wrote Peduto. “It is imperative that you and your neighbors be involved in the discussions about future development in your neighborhood.”

Peduto has been working with Carnegie Mellon and the developers of the Museum Park project, a partnership between Brinton Motheral and Cambridge Venture Partners, for several months, he added, expressing confidence that a resolution can be reached.

Motheral said he would support Peduto’s recommendation as long as his hotel project is part of the master plan. A Representative with Carnegie Mellon was not immediately available for comment.

Originally, Museum Park LP, working with Carnegie Mellon, proposed a hotel that would be 12 stories tall, have 225 rooms and include a range of full-service amenities, such as meeting space, a restaurant and a health club. But Carnegie Mellon protested the project’s size and scale last March, leading the developer to redesign a smaller, limited-service hotel of seven stories and 144 rooms.

The city has not yet given final approval for the new, smaller hotel plan.


tschooley@bizjournals.com | (412) 208-3826

[Johnland]

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2009/09/14/daily15.html

Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 12:18pm EDT

Peduto calls for neighborhood master plan in wake of hotel dispute between Craig Street business owners, CMU

Pittsburgh Business Times - by Tim Schooley

Originally, Museum Park LP, working with Carnegie Mellon, proposed a hotel that would be 12 stories tall, have 225 rooms and include a range of full-service amenities, such as meeting space, a restaurant and a health club. But Carnegie Mellon protested the project’s size and scale last March, leading the developer to redesign a smaller, limited-service hotel of seven stories and 144 rooms.

The city has not yet given final approval for the new, smaller hotel plan.


tschooley@bizjournals.com | (412) 208-3826

With all due respect to CMU, where do they get off dictating the height of a private enterprise hotel development? That's really calling the kettle black. CMU owns how many acres and has how much square footage in developed space and they can't abide by a measly 12 story hotel? All the land they own around that site is mostly ravine, isn't it? Why does the 12 story planned height upset them? My God, what if CMU were located in a Center City Philly, or any other major city, they'd really be busy stamping out development projects on their threshold. Don't they own that vast surface parking lot on the other side of Forbes? Seems to me that's a dismal use of land in Oakland. Where the hue and cry over that? I mean that site has been an abandoned gas station for years. You'd think they'd applaude hotel development.

[cdc]

With all due respect to CMU, where do they get off dictating the height of a private enterprise hotel development?

Its called "zoning" ... and it is dictated by the local government, not CMU.

[UrbaniDesDev]

__________

[Grimacista]

Its called "zoning" ... and it is dictated by the local government, not CMU.

And that property is currently zoned as 'eyesore' and 'disgrace'. If they built a 10 story strip joint there it would still be an upgrade over the present situation.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Has anyone seen this map:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/07/progressive_map/index.html

It shows the shift of demographics over the last 5 years in metros concerning the migration of progressive ideas. Obviously, its not the greatest news if you are a progressive minded person living in Pittsburgh. Click on the link going back 20 years for an even more sobering graphic. It seems as though Pittsburgh is trending in the opposite direction of 95% of the country and that trend has not been reversed in the past 4 years, even during the disastrous Bush administration and the newest renaissance. :shrug:

[Evergrey]

We've discussed Metro Pittsburgh's embarrassing presidential voting trends ad nauseum on two seperate occassions already. Whether that represents some mysterious "progressive quotient" is up for debate.

An interesting map nonetheless, Wiz... and really demonstrates how out of touch with the rest of America Metro Pittsburgh was during the 2008 election... but at least Obama loves us despite our mediocre support

[PA Pride]

but at least Obama loves us despite our mediocre support

Good point!

[bradjl2009]

Has anyone seen this map:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/07/progressive_map/index.html

It shows the shift of demographics over the last 5 years in metros concerning the migration of progressive ideas. Obviously, its not the greatest news if you are a progressive minded person living in Pittsburgh. Click on the link going back 20 years for an even more sobering graphic. It seems as though Pittsburgh is trending in the opposite direction of 95% of the country and that trend has not been reversed in the past 4 years, even during the disastrous Bush administration and the newest renaissance. :shrug:
I'm not sure it's that Pittsburgh was ever a progressive place. I think it's more that a lot of the moderates in the area have switched from Democrat to Republican in the past few decades. The switch may also have to do with how inept many of the local politicians are (and they are usually Democrat). I'm pretty sure most the switch was outside Allegheny County. I'm sure of this, because I remember seeing a map from the 1992 election where Greene, Beaver, Washington, and Mercer Counties voted Democrat while they are more Republican now. In all, the switch IMO may have more the do with people no longer just pulling the Democratic lever without looking at the candidates than how liberal/conservative the area is.

[Grimacista]

Has anyone seen this map:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/07/progressive_map/index.html

It shows the shift of demographics over the last 5 years in metros concerning the migration of progressive ideas. Obviously, its not the greatest news if you are a progressive minded person living in Pittsburgh. Click on the link going back 20 years for an even more sobering graphic. It seems as though Pittsburgh is trending in the opposite direction of 95% of the country and that trend has not been reversed in the past 4 years, even during the disastrous Bush administration and the newest renaissance. :shrug:

What exactly is 'progressive'? Why is it wrong that Pittsburgh has not gotten 'more progressive'? It is almost irresponsible to try to identify a population's political/ideological preferences by a label like 'progressive'. This map, like many others like it, means absolutely nothing.

[pj3000]

What exactly is 'progressive'? Why is it wrong that Pittsburgh has not gotten 'more progressive'?

Basically, it means "not redneck". It is wrong because the Pittsburgh metro area has become "more redneck".

[themaguffin]

People come down. I thought we all knew that Pittsburgh has very unique demographics (namely being very old) and that would skew results.

[pj3000]

^ We've been through this all before, as Evergrey said.

The "very old" demographics didn't fly then and still doesn't. Counties in PA that are older and whiter than the Pittsburgh metro's counties have trended more Democratic/Progressive than the Pittsburgh region.

[pj3000]

... but at least Obama loves us despite our mediocre support

He just loves those chocolate chip banana pancakes

[Black-n-Gold]

Has anyone seen this map:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/07/progressive_map/index.html

It shows the shift of demographics over the last 5 years in metros concerning the migration of progressive ideas. Obviously, its not the greatest news if you are a progressive minded person living in Pittsburgh. Click on the link going back 20 years for an even more sobering graphic. It seems as though Pittsburgh is trending in the opposite direction of 95% of the country and that trend has not been reversed in the past 4 years, even during the disastrous Bush administration and the newest renaissance. :shrug:

I think that map is a little deceptive in that it is measuring the relative change in views of the population. I would guess that the Pittsburgh region started as one of the more Democratic (i.e. "progressive") in the country. Just because we may have shifted in the other direction doesn't mean we aren't still a heavily Democratic (or "progressive") part of the country.

Also consider the actual results in local elections over the past 5-10 years. County executive has gone from Republican to Democrat, and one congressional district has flipped; from Hart (R) to Altmire (D). Oh, and the current (Democrat) mayor of Pittsburgh won the Republican primary. Hardly sounds like we're turning into Utah or some other conservative bastion.

Think of it this way: if a "progressive" moves to Utah, then Utah by definition has become "more progressive". Does anything really change, though?

[pj3000]

^ The Ravenstahl example really doesn't apply here, since the issue is the Pittsburgh metro region, not the city itself. And, Altmire can in no way, shape, or form be called a progressive Democrat.

It is an indefensible argument to say that the Pittsburgh region is not trending more Republican, especially given the very telling results of the past presidential election . No matter how you look at it, the result you get is that it is.

[Black-n-Gold]

^ The Ravenstahl example really doesn't apply here, since the issue is the Pittsburgh metro region, not the city itself. And, Altmire can in no way, shape, or form be called a progressive Democrat.

It is an indefensible argument to say that the Pittsburgh region is not trending more Republican, especially given the very telling results of the past presidential election . No matter how you look at it, the result you get is that it is.

I'm not saying the region is not trending more Republican, I'm saying that we started off fairly Democratic and you have to take that into consideration.

Not to be a smartass, but Pittsburgh does fall within the Pittsburgh metro region, so I think a Democrat winning the Republican primary is relevant.

No argument that Altmire isn't a progressive Democrat, but he is certainly more progressive than Melissa Hart.

[hyperion1110]

What makes this "progressive" discussion to silly is that the equation Democrat equals progressive. Lest we forget that the Democratic Party has, historically, been the less innovative of the two? Remember that the leaders of the Old South, the Original Rednecks who were all about slavery and segregation, were all Democrats, and it took Lincoln, a Republican, for things to start to change?

It's actually quite sad that progressive policies and social dynamism has been associated with the Democratic Party, and the converse with the Republicans. Then you get idiots out there that vote for a party, and not a person.

Parties are never progressive, only people are. Political organizations, by their very natures, are slaves to groupthink.

[pj3000]

^ Let's not take it back 150 years to what party did what. Both parties are far different now, obviously. Lincoln's Republicanism of the 1850s and 1860s is a far, far cry from what today's Republican party has unfortunately come to represent... namely decidedly non-progressive policies towards social issues, nor towards technological innovation. Today's Republican party has been completely hijacked by, and has come to be identified by, conservative viewpoints only... far from progressive.

I do not find it sad at all that "progressive policies and social dynamism" have come to be associated solely with the Democratic party.

I do find it sad that the Republican party has seemingly completely severed ties with any of that same progressive/socially-dynamic ideology.

[pj3000]

I'm not saying the region is not trending more Republican, I'm saying that we started off fairly Democratic and you have to take that into consideration.


Sure, I see what you're saying, but so have a lot of regions... and they have either remained level or trended even more Democratic. Republican bastions across the nation even trended more Democratic. It was, if I recall, just Pittsburgh, Utah, and assorted areas of the redneck south that went more Republican (or rather what it seems to be in Pittsburgh metro region's case, more anti-Obama). Utah and the redneck South... not really areas that I want to be associated with politically... and areas that are light years away from being considered "progressive".

This is really a complete rehashing of what we've already been through on here earlier this year. There is really no argument against the fact that overall SW Pennsylvania moved in the opposite direction of the rest of the country.

[Wheelingman04]

I have concluded on my own through research that the metro area is becoming more conservative and Republican as a whole. Even the core counties such as Beaver, Westmoreland, and Washington are trending this way. Beaver and Washington went for Kerry, but switched to McCain in 08. That really disturbed me. Most of the Democrats, especially outside of the core areas of Allegheny County and the city of Pittsburgh are either moderate or blue dog conservative Democrats anyway. The blue dogs vote mostly Republican on every issue except Unions.

I still think the city of Pittsburgh itself is becoming more liberal/progressive and maybe some of the close in suburbs like Dormont and Mt. Lebanon etc. I don't think Allegheny County is becoming more conservative either. It is either holding steady or becoming slightly more progressive/liberal.

The metro area is already more progressive than many in the country as it is, so we can stand to loose a little bit of ground to the conservatives, but once the population of the city and metro area rises (which is predicted in 10-20yrs.) (I hope it happens), the area will stablize politically and not loose any more ground to the conservatives. Eventually when people get the word that the Pittsburgh area is such a great place to live more(for so many reasons), more will move in.(Actually I think it's happening already a little). It's like a secret right now. People have no clue how great Pittsburgh is. I talk to people from other cities(a lot go to PITT) and they are just amazed and want to stay.

Pittsburgh has so much going for it that the population will rise eventually and will precipitate to a moderate population increase each year for the metro. That- in- turn, is when nearly 90% or more of the time an area gets more liberal, especially an established metro like Pittsburgh. It's just a matter of time before things turn around. I wouldn't worry too much. Just be cautious of the NeoCons.

[Rudomon]

Can we please leave the political discussions in another area and focus on development?

[Evergrey]

You posted in this thread once before... and no one replied to you because you did not ask a question... nor provided a really compelling point in support of Delta adding a Pittsburgh-to-Paris flight.

There are few projects to discuss these days due to lack of financing caused by the Great Recession. Pittsburghers on this site want to talk about things relevant to their city and region... there's no reason why discussion here needs to strictly adhere to the nuts and bolts of construction projects. The beauty of this discussion here has been the willingness to go beyond mere buildings... and analyze things such as regional demographics, politics/governance, cultural/educational resources, and the regional economy. All of these issues are related to what gets built... what gets redeveloped... what happens to neighborhoods.. here in Greater Pittsburgh. If anything... the lack of new projects have given the users here an opportunity to analyze and scrutinize ongoing developments and potential developments in the future.

If you think this thread has gone to shit... perhaps you could actually contribute something as opposed to posting once... blasting everyone involved for their discussion interests.

[Wiz Khalifa]

So I was looking at population figures for the past 8 years for the heck of it. Of all of the metros that trended blue, Pittsburgh lost the highest number of people. Pittsburgh lost the second most people in that time period, nearly 80,000. (Katrina devastated New Orleans also trended red).

http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm00/pcbsa38300.html

Combine that with an already old population (old people tend to stay put and vote more conservatively), and the fact that most of those 80,000 that left were likely higher educated/ younger progressive minded folks, and you have a perfect set up for a metro to trend red against the grain of the overall national trend.



There is good news in the near future, however, concerning population trends in Pittsburgh. If you look closely at the data in the site above, you can see that Pittsburgh has not had that much of a problem with domestic out-migration compared to other cities.

Percentage wise, Pittsburgh is not only losing less of its population to domestic migration than the rest of the rust belt, but to all of the large coastal cities save the northwest. The catch is that they are making up for it with some combination of births and/or international immigration.

This is why the past 3 years of data are making me very optimistic. There is a clear sign that births have bottomed out several years ago and are on an upswing again. Likewise the death-rate has appeared to have topped out and has begun to lower to normal levels as well.

Also, and probably the biggest plus of all, the net domestic migration has begun a noticeable trend towards the positive side. If this trend holds true for this year, then the pop. data for the region could show a net positive increase in domestic migration for the first time since 1971 (unless you count that small aberration in 1992). And this is all before the massive publicity of the city in 2009 began to make its rounds... G20, netroots, 2 sports championships, most livable again...ect ect.

So all I am saying is get excited people, because we could potentially see some amazing changes happen to the city in the next several years. I just hope that the recent trends aren't entirely recession related... but I don't even think that will matter at this point. The momentum has started, and as long as there are enough jobs here the people will come... they aren't all leaving the expensive and crowded coastal cities for no reason of course.


Just my 2 cents.

[Grimacista]

^ I do not find it sad at all that "progressive policies and social dynamism" have come to be associated solely with the Democratic party.

I do find it sad that the Republican party has seemingly completely severed ties with any of that same progressive/socially-dynamic ideology.

Right...because when I think progressive I think Luke Ravenstahl and Dan Onorato.

[pj3000]

^ That is a completely worthless response to what I said.

If you don't consider Ravenstahl and Onorato to be "progressive", fine, good for you.

hyperion and I were talking about the two national political parties in general, not about our mayor and county exec.

[Grimacista]

^ That is a completely worthless response to what I said.

If you don't consider Ravenstahl and Onorato to be "progressive", fine, good for you.

hyperion and I were talking about the two national political parties in general, not about our mayor and county exec.

But the problem is still that "progressive" is not being defined, it is just being associated with "Democrat". I agree that many people associate "liberal" with "progressive" with "Democrat". And people associate "conservative" with "suburbia/redneck" with "Republican". But... looking at 2 national political parties does not necessarily look at 'progressive' trends. If you looked at the city of Pittsburgh from about 1930-present it is unquestionably "Democrat" but it is not "progressive". In the last city Democratic primary, Ravenstahl and Dowd were both "Democrat" but only Dowd could have been described as "Progressive".

Perhaps the map shows that people in Pittsburgh who always were socially conservative but voted Democrat because of unions now vote Republican, because of the decline in union/manufacturing influence. And this does not even take into account libertarian views which while "conservative" are entirely different than traditional views of "Republicanism".

[pj3000]

^ Good points. I agree with everything you say.

Why didn't you just say this to begin with, rather than assume that I think Ravenstahl and Onorato are progressives?

[Suffice]

The G20 Summit is next week! Where is it being held? How is the progress on Market Square, any chance of having it ready for the summit?

Greg from LA

[Wiz Khalifa]

The G20 Summit is next week! Where is it being held? How is the progress on Market Square, any chance of having it ready for the summit?

Greg from LA

It is being held in the convention center downtown, with a couple of special events being held in three other locations around the city.

Market square has been completely closed down for the summit, and will likely stay that way until the construction for the new layout is completed.

[DBR96A]

We've discussed Metro Pittsburgh's embarrassing presidential voting trends ad nauseum on two seperate occassions already. Whether that represents some mysterious "progressive quotient" is up for debate.

An interesting map nonetheless, Wiz... and really demonstrates how out of touch with the rest of America Metro Pittsburgh was during the 2008 election... but at least Obama loves us despite our mediocre support

Or maybe it's a reflection of all the blue-collar jobs the region lost, combined with the fact that the region was heavily Democrat 25 years ago. Christ, one of Walter Mondale's few bastions of support in 1984 was southwestern Pennsylvania. You can only get less liberal from there.

Also, I hate to break the news, but there are lots of people -- both liberal and conservative -- who feel alienated by the political "leaders" this country has had since 2000. Many conservatives I've talked with thought that George W. Bush was a phony all along, and many moderates and independents I've talked with are beginning to believe that they made a mistake voting for Barack Obama.

We have an old-fashioned leadership crisis in this country, and it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on. (For that reason, expect a lot of Congressional incumbents to get ruined in 2010, regardless of their affiliation.)

[Suffice]

Thank you, Wiz

[hyperion1110]

^ Let's not take it back 150 years to what party did what. Both parties are far different now, obviously. Lincoln's Republicanism of the 1850s and 1860s is a far, far cry from what today's Republican party has unfortunately come to represent... namely decidedly non-progressive policies towards social issues, nor towards technological innovation. Today's Republican party has been completely hijacked by, and has come to be identified by, conservative viewpoints only... far from progressive.

I do not find it sad at all that "progressive policies and social dynamism" have come to be associated solely with the Democratic party.

I do find it sad that the Republican party has seemingly completely severed ties with any of that same progressive/socially-dynamic ideology.

LOL...actually, if you want a "progressive" Dick Cheney is your man! He supports gay marriage! (j/k)

In all seriousness, there are crazies on both sides. I mean, Nancy Pelosi is so far out of touch with reality that I think she is a robot sometimes. And most Republicans are no better. What's more, the two parties have gotten so used to just saying the opposite of what the other says that they should just join forces into the Purple Party, and take two diametrically opposed positions on every issue. It would work about as well as the current system.

American people to the Purple Party: "Do you support health care reform?"
Purple Party: "YesNo"
Americans: "Do you support gay marriage?"
Purples: "YesNo"

Sometimes, when they want to changes things up a bit, they can answer, "NoYes."

Sometimes I think I'm the only person that sees politicians for what they are. I know I'm not, but it just seems like corrupt and inept politicians are the white elephant in the room. Everyone knows they are corrupt, inept, self-indulgent, and completely detached from the realities of America...and yet, come election day, otherwise intelligent and thoughtful people walk in and hit that Vote All Democrat or Vote All Republican button. What good does that do us?! I say ban all political parties, and let officials be elected on merit, not association.

Color me an idealist, but I believe in a pluralistic America. But instead of having a union independent minds that cooperate and compete to promote the excellence of America, both as individuals and in the collective, we have an old, tired marriage of two political ideologies that long ago lost the desire for compromise, yet remain wedded because they know nothing else.

Progress is made through a diversity of ideas, not the domination of one ideology over another.

[AaronPGH]

American people to the Purple Party: "Do you support health care reform?"
Purple Party: "YesNo"
Americans: "Do you support gay marriage?"
Purples: "YesNo"

Sometimes, when they want to changes things up a bit, they can answer, "NoYes."

It's so true! :haha:

[Wheelingman04]

So I was looking at population figures for the past 8 years for the heck of it. Of all of the metros that trended blue, Pittsburgh lost the highest number of people. Pittsburgh lost the second most people in that time period, nearly 80,000. (Katrina devastated New Orleans also trended red).

http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm00/pcbsa38300.html

Combine that with an already old population (old people tend to stay put and vote more conservatively), and the fact that most of those 80,000 that left were likely higher educated/ younger progressive minded folks, and you have a perfect set up for a metro to trend red against the grain of the overall national trend.



There is good news in the near future, however, concerning population trends in Pittsburgh. If you look closely at the data in the site above, you can see that Pittsburgh has not had that much of a problem with domestic out-migration compared to other cities.

Percentage wise, Pittsburgh is not only losing less of its population to domestic migration than the rest of the rust belt, but to all of the large coastal cities save the northwest. The catch is that they are making up for it with some combination of births and/or international immigration.

This is why the past 3 years of data are making me very optimistic. There is a clear sign that births have bottomed out several years ago and are on an upswing again. Likewise the death-rate has appeared to have topped out and has begun to lower to normal levels as well.

Also, and probably the biggest plus of all, the net domestic migration has begun a noticeable trend towards the positive side. If this trend holds true for this year, then the pop. data for the region could show a net positive increase in domestic migration for the first time since 1971 (unless you count that small aberration in 1992). And this is all before the massive publicity of the city in 2009 began to make its rounds... G20, netroots, 2 sports championships, most livable again...ect ect.

So all I am saying is get excited people, because we could potentially see some amazing changes happen to the city in the next several years. I just hope that the recent trends aren't entirely recession related... but I don't even think that will matter at this point. The momentum has started, and as long as there are enough jobs here the people will come... they aren't all leaving the expensive and crowded coastal cities for no reason of course.


Just my 2 cents.

Very well said!!:tup:

[dugdogmaster]

http://kdka.com/green/Green.Pittsburgh.Park.2.1193172.html


Video of the new PNC Triangle Park and the PNC Living Wall!!!!!!! It's funny how they're going to manicure the lawn of the park. And the wall is bad-ass, but not as big as I thought it would be.

[JakeLiefer]

Some news on 3PNC Plaza: The well respected 21st Street Coffee in the Strip will be opening up their 3rd location in 3PNC. Blog post from Luke, owner, here: http://21streetcoffee.com/2009/09/18/number-three/

[Tombstoner]

:previous: This could be a nice addition to the downtown scene, but I hope they stay open later than their other stores which close at 5pm. Downtown residents really need a place to go hang out in the evening.

[dugdogmaster]

:previous: This could be a nice addition to the downtown scene, but I hope they stay open later than their other stores which close at 5pm. Downtown residents really need a place to go hang out in the evening.

Being in a VERY large mixed use I can see them staying open well into the evening.

[Evergrey]

Some news on 3PNC Plaza: The well respected 21st Street Coffee in the Strip will be opening up their 3rd location in 3PNC. Blog post from Luke, owner, here: http://21streetcoffee.com/2009/09/18/number-three/

where is their 2nd location?

btw, I tried to find Beaver Falls Coffee & Tea when I was in Beaver Falls recently... but I failed :(

in other news... the redevelopment of Federal St. in the Mexican War Streets area is looking very nice... I didn't know they were going to turn that street into a boulevard... and S&A's rowhouses are looking great

[JakeLiefer]

where is their 2nd location?

btw, I tried to find Beaver Falls Coffee & Tea when I was in Beaver Falls recently... but I failed :(

in other news... the redevelopment of Federal St. in the Mexican War Streets area is looking very nice... I didn't know they were going to turn that street into a boulevard... and S&A's rowhouses are looking great

The 2nd location is in the Frick Building downtown.

BFCAT is up in the College Hill neighborhood of Beaver Falls, across from Geneva College. Pizza Joes & Sub Palace are next door. We're in a repurposed old home that is set back from the sidewalk. You'll see a sign out front. Hope to see you sometime!

I didn't know it was going to be a boulevard. Any photos or drawings of what it looks like?

[GeneW]

There's a drawing of the Federal Hill Project in this PDF from the URA's website (http://www.ura.org/pdfs/showcase/federalHill.pdf). I was just over on Federal Street yesterday to go to the new library and things are looking up on the street; the new Crazy Mocha on the corner of North and Federal looks like it's going to open pretty soon and the townhouses look like they're done on the one side of the street and in progress on the other. Now if they could just figure out what to do with the Garden Theater.

[Evergrey]

this Italian article on Pittsburgh has some very interesting photography

and my favorite line... "The typical dish of the city is a sandwich with french fries." lol

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/09_settembre_10/io_donna_pittsburgh_66660620-9e2a-11de-8f8c-00144f02aabc.shtml

[DBR96A]

this Italian article on Pittsburgh has some very interesting photography

and my favorite line... "The typical dish of the city is a sandwich with french fries." lol

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/09_settembre_10/io_donna_pittsburgh_66660620-9e2a-11de-8f8c-00144f02aabc.shtml

In the photo slideshow, they refer to Grant Street as "Grand Street." It certainly is the grandest street in downtown.

[hyperion1110]

this Italian article on Pittsburgh has some very interesting photography

and my favorite line... "The typical dish of the city is a sandwich with french fries." lol

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/09_settembre_10/io_donna_pittsburgh_66660620-9e2a-11de-8f8c-00144f02aabc.shtml

LOL...outstanding find, Evergrey. My favorite photo has to be the guy sleeping on the bench on Liberty Ave. It's like they went out of there way to find the most unflattering images of the city...then again, they're Italian. And I'm not hating on Italians, either...they're my people! :)

I wonder if the title of the article, "Pittsburgh, City of the Future," is meant to be ironical? At any rate, good stuff!

[qwho]

In the photo slideshow, they refer to Grant Street as "Grand Street." It certainly is the grandest street in downtown.

here is the page translated by google.

http://www.translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.corriere.it/esteri/09_settembre_10/io_donna_pittsburgh_66660620-9e2a-11de-8f8c-00144f02aabc.shtml&sl=it&tl=en&history_state0=

[themaguffin]

-

[qwho]

Also I hadn't seen this posted yet, but there is an interactive map for the G20 of road closings and entry points for pedestrians into the restricted zones, things like that at this link:

http://www.g20safety.org/map.htm


Road Closures:
http://www.g20safety.org/im/road_closures.jpg

1. Fort Duquesne Boulevard /10th Street Bypass ramp from Fort Duquesne Bridge
2. Fort Duquesne Blvd/10th St Bypass Ramp from Fort Pitt Bridge
3. Liberty Avenue Ramp from Fort Pitt Bridge
4. Downtown Ramp from Fort Duquesne Bridge
5. Stanwix Street Ramp from 376 Underpass
6. Grant Street Exit from 376 East
7. Grant Street Exit from 376 West
8. Boulevard of the Allies Ramp from Liberty Bridge
9. Second Avenue and Municipal Court Drive
10. Second Ave and Try Street
11. Second Avenue and B Way
12. First Avenue and Ross Street
13. Second Ave and Ross Street
14. Court Place and Ross Street
15. Third Avenue and Ross Street
16. Fourth Avenue and Ross Street
17. Forbes Avenue and Ross Street
18. Fifth Avenue and Ross Street
19. Sixth Ave and Ross Street
20. Bigelow Boulevard at Seventh Avenue
21. Seventh Avenue ramp from Mellon Arena
22. 15th Street and Smallman Street
23. 15th Street and Penn Avenue
24. 16th Street and Liberty Avenue
25. Smithfield Street Bridge and Carson Street
26. Federal Street and Isabella Street
27. Sandusky Street and Isabella Street

[mackb]

Ugh... I'm not a big fan of that italian article. There weren't all that many positive things said... no mention of green buildings or anything. And, hyperion, I have to agree that it looks like they went out of their way to find the worst pictures of Pburgh. That beautiful church outside of Coffey Way... they took a picture of the one side of the church that isn't beautifully restored (btw, does anyone know why the other side of that church wasn't cleaned like the rest of it was?)... Looking back at that pic... is that a dated photo? That plaza (a Mellon one with the steel or aluminum tubing as art) is probably the worst plaza to feature... dying trees, mad pigeons, a fountain that usually doesn't run and, if you're there at the right time, someone offering you a blunt to smoke). It's outside the Omni, one of the most upscale hotels in town, and they have that crap plaza sitting out front of it... a shame. Then the person with the Pirate hat walking across the bridge... I would hang my head down too if I had that hat on. Wow, I don't think our city is amazing, but it sure isn't well represented by those pics featured in the article.

[Wiz Khalifa]

And the madness has begun:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09264/999585-53.stm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09264/999586-482.stm


This is going to be a very interesting week, to say the least.

[UrbaniDesDev]

Some new shots of Fifth Avenue "Triangle Park" (Triangle Park!?) & Market Square

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0562.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0563.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0564.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0570.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0565.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0566.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0567.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0569.jpg

The now vacant Market Square
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0571.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0574.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0578.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0579.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/UrbaniDesDev/100_0572.jpg

[themaguffin]

Can someone tell me where the food reference was in the Italian article? I didn't see any reference to food.

[Tombstoner]

Ugh... I'm not a big fan of that italian article. There weren't all that many positive things said... no mention of green buildings or anything. And, hyperion, I have to agree that it looks like they went out of their way to find the worst pictures of Pburgh. That beautiful church outside of Coffey Way... they took a picture of the one side of the church that isn't beautifully restored (btw, does anyone know why the other side of that church wasn't cleaned like the rest of it was?)... Looking back at that pic... is that a dated photo? That plaza (a Mellon one with the steel or aluminum tubing as art) is probably the worst plaza to feature... dying trees, mad pigeons, a fountain that usually doesn't run and, if you're there at the right time, someone offering you a blunt to smoke). It's outside the Omni, one of the most upscale hotels in town, and they have that crap plaza sitting out front of it... a shame. Then the person with the Pirate hat walking across the bridge... I would hang my head down too if I had that hat on. Wow, I don't think our city is amazing, but it sure isn't well represented by those pics featured in the article.

Really, you have to have a special talent to take pictures worse than those accompanying this article. The street in front of the Post-Gazette??? :koko: They aren't just negative, they're amateurish. It's also odd that the pictures really have nothing to do with the article which is mostly up-beat.

[UrbaniDesDev]

That Italian article did end like this;
"Obama could only choose the Steel City, the city that was to die and instead you can enjoy its Renaissance."

[Evergrey]

uhhhh....


http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20090921/capt.d2c347a386064589b09aa342ffee5843.japan_us_tok803.jpg?x=400&y=296&q=85&sig=OH0G_CFR1_1zLBt0qLHe2Q--
Japanese Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama, left, clad in Pittsburgh Pirates' shirt and cap, chats with former Japanese Pirates pitcher Masumi Kuwata as Hatoyama receives lessons from Kuwata at Hatoyama's official residence in Tokyo before his departure to the United States Monday, Sept. 21, 2009. Hatoyama plans to throw a ceremonial first pitch at a Major League baseball game during his visit to Pittsburgh for the Group of 20 economic summit.
(AP Photo/Kyodo News, Toru Futagami)

[Wiz Khalifa]

Just came across this hilarious picture in the post-gazette:


Hell with the lid back on?
Written by Matt Kennedy
Sunday, 20 September 2009 15:54

Here's one visual commentary on the arrangements falling into place for the G-20 summit in Pittsburgh this week that's circulating in the protest community. Hint: Think Nazgul as host city ambassadors.

http://www.pgpremium.com/g20/images/stories/20090920g20mordor_620.jpg

Obviously not everyone out there is pleased with the city's preparations for the upcoming summit. Although I guess Appalachia doesn't come off too well either.


http://www.pgpremium.com/g20/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93:hell-with-the-lid-back-on&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=50

[dugdogmaster]

Even my poor brother who lives on Mt. Washington is eff'd this week, he lives a block off of Grandview and they're shutting the whole road down! Oh, and get this, he works for Starbucks.