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CosmoVegas
Jul 21, 2008, 11:22 PM
If a person:
1) has perfect credit,
2) pays all their bills the day they come in,
3) has only 1 single debt; an equity line of credit that they pay 10X the minimum payment every month,
4) the loan to value for their equity loan is less than 80%,
5) the available credit for the loan is equal to the persons 1 year (gross) income,
6) they took the loan ouat as a back-up to pay the balance for their unit at the Cosmopolitan,
7) due to the tight credit market, today had the bank cut the credit line in half, and that is only if the person pays about $1,000.00 for a new appraisal and origination fee
8) will this person or others like them be able to finance the balance when their units are delivered to them?
9) are the Trump units closing and if so, what interest rate are the loans?
10) how many cono-hotel units going to close?

Aaron Auxier
Jul 21, 2008, 11:30 PM
I just received word from MGM MIRAGE counsel that the monorail (Automated People Mover) at CityCenter is NOT mag-lev technology.

tumbleweed
Jul 21, 2008, 11:55 PM
I just received word from MGM MIRAGE counsel that the monorail (Automated People Mover) at CityCenter is NOT mag-lev technology.

People Mover Manufacturer: http://www.doppelmayr.com/default.php?frs=210&mid=39&pid=56&detail=612&lid=2

RandalR
Jul 22, 2008, 12:45 AM
10) how many cono-hotel units going to close?

Trump may have to knock out some walls and combine them into larger, penthouse-style units to sell them off to wealthier, cash-paying buyers.

The condo-hotel concept appears to be dead - buying a hotel room has no intrinsic appeal in a down economy. I wouldn't be surprised to see CityCenter and Fontainebleau shift gears and create larger units for sale or retain more of the proposed condo units as high-end hotel suites.

ScottG
Jul 22, 2008, 1:04 AM
why are you calling it a people mover and not a monorail? is there a difference?

Aaron Auxier
Jul 22, 2008, 1:04 AM
People Mover Manufacturer: http://www.doppelmayr.com/default.php?frs=210&mid=39&pid=56&detail=612&lid=2

Thank you tumbleweed.

Aaron Auxier
Jul 22, 2008, 2:11 AM
why are you calling it a people mover and not a monorail? is there a difference?

MGM MIRAGE often refers to it as the Automated People Mover. Sometimes they just use APM.

Regardless, it's going to get people to A, B, and C. :)

mdiederi
Jul 22, 2008, 2:15 AM
why are you calling it a people mover and not a monorail? is there a difference?
A monorail has a single rail. There are two rails for each track on the system at CityCenter, so it's a tram. But yeah, I always thought "people movers" were like moving sidewalks and things like that, but I guess it's actually anything that moves people.

Looks like this thing is actually going to be a cable car, which is a very old technology. Max speed 22mph. I was hoping for the maglev because I wanted to see how smooth the ride is. Most of the trams and monorails are kind of a bumpy ride.

milquetoast
Jul 22, 2008, 8:45 AM
First CityCenter Retailers, Restaurateurs Revealed http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee192/trolltoast/20070618060517_CityCenter.jpgunitedbuzz
By Brian K. Miller
LAS VEGAS-MGM Mirage on Friday revealed the headliners for the 500,000-sf retail district within its multi-billion 67-acre CityCenter development in the heart of the Las Vegas Strip, an 18 million-sf development set to open all at once in late 2009. The Crystals retail district will be anchored by Louis Vuitton, Ermenegildo Zegna and Tiffany & Co., as well as two new dining concepts by Wolfgang Puck.
Louis Vuitton will have a two-level store offering all of its product categories in the center of the development. Though its size was not provided, MGM Mirages says it will be one of the largest Louis Vuitton locations in North America and its 16th worldwide. Ermenegildo Zegna will showcase its extensive collection of suiting, sportswear, small leather goods and accessories in an approximately 10,000-sf boutique. Tiffany & Co. will open a 10,000-sf, two-level story that faces Las Vegas Boulevard. Opening its fifth US store will be Marni, which offers clothing for men, women and children.

Wolfgang Puck’s new concepts will include a contemporary interpretation of a traditional French brasserie with tastes of the Mediterranean region, a new concept for Puck. The second, known as the Wolfgang Puck “Pods,” will offer light American and Mediterranean fare as well as a bar with views of the center. Another eatery announced by MGM will be a new version of Katana, the sushi and Robatayaki concept by Innovative Dining Group. IDG’s existing Las Vegas restaurants include Sushi Roku and BOA Steakhouse.

In deference to its name, the Crystals also will house several jewelers. Opening their first West Coast stores will be de Grisogono and H. Stern. Roberto Coin will use the Crystals for its second US boutique and cultured pearl pioneer Mikimoto will be opening its second Las Vegas store at the Crystals. In addition, Hyde Park Jewelers will open a store devoted to Rolex wristwatches, while Tourbillon, which is owned by Swatch, will offer wristwatches by Breguet, Blancpain, Glash tte Original, Jaquet Droz, Leìon Hatot and Omega.
CityCenter is taking shape between the Bellagio and Monte Carlo resorts. The project is a 50-50 joint venture of MGM Mirage and Dubai World, a Dubai government conglomerate whose companies include Nakheel, developer of the man-made Palm and World islands off the coast of Dubai.

All told, CityCenter will be home to a 61-story, 4,000-room resort casino; two 400-room, non-gaming hotels; and 2,700 for-sale residential units, including the 1,500-unit Vdara. Shopping and entertainment offerings will include the Crystals and an Elvis-themed Cirque du Soleil show. The development also will include its own monorail to move people around the site.

The actual gross cost of CityCenter is more than $11 billion. In its first quarter report, MGM Mirage pegged the net project budget at $8.5 million–after an expected $2.7 billion in residential sales. The gross project budget includes $9.2 billion for construction costs (including capitalized interest), $1.7 billion for the land, $200 million for pre-opening expenses and $100 million of “intangible assets.”

A few months ago, with the project’s opening 15 months away, about half of the 2,700 residential units had been sold. The mix of buyers has been about one-third Nevada, one-third from Southern California and one third international. About 10% of sales had come from the Middle East, a percentage MGM Mirage and Dubai World hoped to grow this year by launching a sales center in Dubai that opened earlier this year.GlobeSt.com

DIESELPOLO
Jul 22, 2008, 11:21 AM
i think its admittedly just a personal preference of mine anyway, but creating this luxury ghetto is a fascinating study in human behavior and marketing strategies. i mean, not to mention that many of these brands are so ubiquitous that they've lost the meaning of true luxury in the first place (louis vuitton), that being of handmade, limited, can't-get-it-absolutely-anywhere, & inspired design, but apparently they don't believe that they are oversaturating the vegas market (seeing as there is the shops at caesar's, wynn, palazzo, barney's, fashion show mall...). Although, i'm not naive to the fact that those are some of the only companies that can afford the rent in a place like The Crystals.

But not to make this post completely not about design & development, the shopping and dining part are quite stunning and definitely furthers the new notion of shopping in brick & mortar stores a whole EXPERIENCE rather than one that is merely utilitarian.

RandalR
Jul 22, 2008, 2:55 PM
...but apparently they don't believe that they are oversaturating the vegas market (seeing as there is the shops at caesar's, wynn, palazzo, barney's, fashion show mall...).

Everybody wants that top 1% - I guess the hotels' financial analysts have proven they spend more than the bottom 90% combined. It's just that they make up an awfully small pool of visitors to fight over, and even if you win, who is going to fill the rest of your 4,000 rooms except people those top 1% don't necessarily want to rub elbows with while out shopping?

ScottG
Jul 22, 2008, 3:32 PM
am i the only one who caught the rendering in that post?

http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WK-AM470_sammyj_20080717223342.jpg

could the planet-holywood effect have a second coming? PH is screams vegas - looks like the 'saharah' will give that a try too

mdiederi
Jul 22, 2008, 7:41 PM
The actual gross cost of CityCenter is more than $11 billion.
Yikes! I hadn't heard that figure before. Maybe that's why their stock tanked 75%.

justdefended
Jul 22, 2008, 10:52 PM
Steve Wynn told Las Vegas Now that the golf course redevelopment plan will start in mid-2009 when the course is removed.

The new site will include hotels and condominiums to be surrounded by lakes and trees.

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=8717008&nav=menu102_2

jazfingr
Jul 23, 2008, 12:51 AM
Steve Wynn told Las Vegas Now that the golf course redevelopment plan will start in mid-2009 when the course is removed.

The new site will include hotels and condominiums to be surrounded by lakes and trees.

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=8717008&nav=menu102_2


No offence, but in the video, Wynn says nothing about building condos on the property. As he stated in another interview (a few months back), there will be two new hotels; one at the northeast corner and one on the southeast corner (both on Paradise Rd.) A large convention center will go between them. A 20+-acre lake will be the hub around which all the properties will be.

justdefended
Jul 23, 2008, 3:36 AM
No offence, but in the article and video, Wynn says nothing about building condos on the property. As he stated in another interview (a few months back), there will be two new hotels; one at the northeast corner and one on the southeast corner (both on Paradise Rd.) A large convention center will go between them. A 20+-acre lake will be the hub around which all the properties will be.

The first paragraph in the article:

"Casino mogul Steve Wynn is laying out his plans for the golf course property at Wynn Las Vegas. Those plans call for a hotel/condominium project."

Second to last paragraph:

"The next phase will have hotels and condominiums and be surrounded by lakes and trees. Wynn wants a place of luxury, open spaces and warm feelings."

The reporter could have paraphrased a sentence by Wynn off camera rather than take a direct quote regarding what would be on the property. It's unlikely that they would need to speculate on that having just interviewed him.

lfc4life
Jul 23, 2008, 12:31 PM
whatever the final make up of the buildings its a damn ambitious project to be attempting in the current climate and one which will no doubt have those in the know claiming wynn "has lost the plot completely"

but then again they said that in 1988 too :cool:

True Blue
Jul 23, 2008, 3:57 PM
whatever the final make up of the buildings its a damn ambitious project to be attempting in the current climate and one which will no doubt have those in the know claiming wynn "has lost the plot completel"

I was thinking the same. Does anyone know the cost for such a major project? Does Wynn have enough assets to secure financing in this bad credit market? Most developers are shying away from any new projects.

He must have balls of steel! On the other hand, he could be a genius. If he can pull this off, the product won't be delivered until around 2014-2015. The credit crunch and housing market will have improved dramatically by then. His will be the only NEW project on the market upon completion. I guess we'll see how things play out, but it's a very risky move.

rhassoii
Jul 23, 2008, 4:23 PM
4th building at World Market Center on hold

http://www.lvrj.com/business/25794879.html

mdiederi
Jul 23, 2008, 7:06 PM
Hopefully all the projects currently under construction will be completed. Then it will probably be a couple years with no new projects while the credit markets regain their liquidity. Kerzner and Elad will have to wait. Then Wynn will start the golf course development and everyone else will then feel confident and start building new projects following Wynn, and Wynn will be credited with starting his third or fourth building boom in the city.

True Blue
Jul 23, 2008, 9:39 PM
If Wynn can secure financing, the timing for his new Golf Course project could turn into be a very good business move. The costs for materials and labor should be low because his project would be the only one going. In 5 years, Wynn will have a new product to offer while everyone else is just getting started. All other developments would be competing with each other for labor and materials.

Wynn knows how to take a risk and be successful. He's making a bold move while others live in fear.

ScottG
Jul 24, 2008, 7:37 PM
gensler architects webpage has several renderings of the people mover (apparently the track is going to be lit at night!) \\http://www.gensler.com/#projects/7

also - on their descption of city center - "city center will be a sophisticated, cosmopolitan hub on the strip"....haha - itsnt the Cosmopilitan going to be the cosmopolitan on the strip...haha

Aaron Auxier
Jul 24, 2008, 7:49 PM
KVBC NBC 3 has reported 73 workers have been let go at Trump Tower because of slow condominium sales.

*I have updated this below*

Silas
Jul 24, 2008, 9:41 PM
Anybody like the new route to the airport for the monorail? None of the silly stops at UNLV, etc. Airport-Strip in about 5 minutes.

http://www.lvmonorail.com/about/expansion/

Aaron Auxier
Jul 25, 2008, 5:24 AM
Update

KVBC NBC 3 called me and wanted to interview for a last minute follow up to the story about Trump Tower.

I was able to share with them how many stories in the press about the Las Vegas condo market have (in many ways) missed the mark.

It was nice to see them let someone share some factual positive news. (However, our edit did not get in on time).

Aaron Auxier
Jul 25, 2008, 8:02 AM
These new ad links are really annoying.

RazzMan
Jul 25, 2008, 1:21 PM
Update

KVBC NBC 3 called me and wanted to interview for a last minute follow up to the story about Trump Tower.

I was able to share with them how many stories in the press about the Las Vegas condo market have (in many ways) missed the mark.

It was nice to see them let someone share some factual positive news. (However, our edit did not get in on time).

---------------------------------------------------------
Aaron, would your story have been + or - on Trump if you got the story in.. What would have been your point?

VegasMatt
Jul 25, 2008, 5:19 PM
Anybody like the new route to the airport for the monorail? None of the silly stops at UNLV, etc. Airport-Strip in about 5 minutes.

http://www.lvmonorail.com/about/expansion/

It's far better. Looking at the diagram, it looks like the airport stop is on Russel road though. It doesn't look very close to the actual airport building. I hope they are not planning on shuttling people from the airport to the monorail's airport stop. That would be a mistake.

Silas
Jul 25, 2008, 5:49 PM
Matt --

I believe there will be two stops at airport. One at existing terminal, one at the future 'Terminal 3'. Not sure about gates-to-monorail reality though.

Although up until now the monorail has been all talk and not much delivery, I think there is potential in 3 years to have a seemless airport connection to the strip - as well as the AEG/Bally's arena and improved convention center connection. I think for anyone staying on the east side of the strip it could really be a good thing.

I agree, it is all about the realities of the experience as far as convenience and cost. If it doesn't beat dealing with the cabs, then what is the point?

hotdog
Jul 25, 2008, 5:56 PM
It shows 2 airport stops, one at the new terminal 3 they are going to build, ready in a few years, and one at the current terminal 1. I would guess that at the current terminal, you'd have to walk across the parking structure to the far side to get on the monorail, or maybe a floor above the bridges between the parking lot and the baggage claim, so that might be a small hassle, but no big deal.

tumbleweed
Jul 25, 2008, 8:14 PM
Updated Echelon renderings on their website www.echelonresorts.com
i like these exterior shots better than what was previously posted. appears to be well landscaped.

neworleans
Jul 25, 2008, 8:49 PM
new pics on the citycenter website. interesting little tidbits next to the pictures

http://www.citycenter.com/luxury_las_vegas_condos/?CMP=KNC-Google-City_Corp

ScottG
Jul 26, 2008, 12:28 AM
echelon- is the most - minimal - streamline design - maybe a little to blan (?)

i dont get the larger - echelon - curved design vs the boxed boutique design - why the contrast? - also - both hotels block each others views?!

i do like the interesting side lights that go around the top of the tower

Aaron Auxier
Jul 27, 2008, 1:21 AM
---------------------------------------------------------
Aaron, would your story have been + or - on Trump if you got the story in.. What would have been your point?

As always, I provided factual information with the reporter and explained that good news about the Las Vegas high-rise condo market is mostly avoided by the press.

You can see photos of the shoot and read more of what I said here. (http://activerain.com/blogsview/610955/Aaron-Auxier-films-NBC)

NYC2ATX
Jul 27, 2008, 6:52 AM
Anybody like the new route to the airport for the monorail? None of the silly stops at UNLV, etc. Airport-Strip in about 5 minutes.

http://www.lvmonorail.com/about/expansion/

I see no map of anything at this link....or am I mistaken? :shrug:

silverbow
Jul 28, 2008, 3:56 PM
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b304/silverbow_mtn/c9c39645.jpg

Silas
Jul 28, 2008, 5:46 PM
I checked out the latest CC photos at www.VegasTaT.com

ALthough the photos were clear and well composed, the CC project did not look that good. Is that just a coincidence - does it look better in person? I haven't been 'on the ground' in Vegas in many months.

The combination of Aria, Mand-Or, Vdara, Cosmo (blander than renderings?) make for a very generic backrop which is basically reflecting the sky?? I hate to say it - but for $11 billion you want something more than a reflection of the sky. Of course, Veer and Harmon may still add some sparkle.

Is that too critical? Does it look much better in person?

Jake2006
Jul 28, 2008, 6:53 PM
We were in Vegas in June and I was blown away by the City Center complex. I have no background in architecture so its just a matter of my own taste but I think Las Vegas is building something of which they should really be proud. I can't wait to see it lit up at night.

Vtown420
Jul 28, 2008, 7:51 PM
It's far better. Looking at the diagram, it looks like the airport stop is on Russel road though. It doesn't look very close to the actual airport building. I hope they are not planning on shuttling people from the airport to the monorail's airport stop. That would be a mistake.

It looks like Terminal 3 will be right along Russel Road, so they shouldn't have to walk very far.
http://library.nevada.edu/arch/aia/awa2007/ub07063_01.jpg
http://library.nevada.edu/arch/aia/awa2007/ub07063.html

I like the new route but I think they should have kept a stop at the Thomas & Mack. Maybe they are trying to keep costs down or appease the cabbies. Of course, I'm not a tourist so what do I care? I'll probably never use it. I've only ridden it once and that was on New Years Eve.

Aaron Auxier
Jul 28, 2008, 10:37 PM
I checked out the latest CC photos at www.VegasTaT.com

ALthough the photos were clear and well composed, the CC project did not look that good. Is that just a coincidence - does it look better in person? I haven't been 'on the ground' in Vegas in many months.

The combination of Aria, Mand-Or, Vdara, Cosmo (blander than renderings?) make for a very generic backrop which is basically reflecting the sky?? I hate to say it - but for $11 billion you want something more than a reflection of the sky. Of course, Veer and Harmon may still add some sparkle.

Is that too critical? Does it look much better in person?

I respect your concern. Glass color wise, Veer Towers and The Harmon are exciting. When it comes to ARIA, one day I drove by and it was reflecting a very blue sky and it looked fantastic as the entire east side of it became deep blue.

From the renderings, it looks as if ARIA, Vdara, and Mandarin will reflect sunsets, the sky, other building's lights, etc. In a similar instance to the ARIA "sky blue" experience I had, I drove by Vdara during an orange and yellow sunset and the entire building turned those colors. Nice.

As far as Cosmo, the glass does appear to have changed colors. I think it looks bold and nice - personally, I'm tired of normal old blue towers.

And it's all about the night. Hopefully all of these properties will light up really interesting at night :).

Vtown420
Jul 29, 2008, 4:33 AM
Yeah that’s what I love about glass buildings like these - they always change depending on the time of day and the weather, and I think the glass at city center is some of the best I’ve seen anywhere. It will probably look even better when finished. So far Harmon is my favorite, but I like them all. I don’t see how you can call city center bland, it’s beautiful non-foam architecture! Maybe some of us are becoming a little jaded with all the new stuff. I think other cities would kill to have any of these buildings.

DowntownGymRat
Jul 29, 2008, 4:33 AM
The outside of CC already looks impressive and when completed will be amazing, but like most top notch Vegas properties, it's the inside that drops jaws. Other than Dubai, Vegas hotels pay as much if not more attention to the inside as out. I remember first walking into Wynn and being in aww of the attention to luxury. City Center will be no different and that's where a lot of the $11 Billion ends up.

Vtown420
Jul 29, 2008, 4:37 AM
Check this out!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3146/2708168043_e49de2ca63_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidtoc/2708168043/

centralcali19
Jul 29, 2008, 4:42 AM
:previous: :slob: WOW! impressive shot, can't wait until this massive project is done..

goldcntry
Jul 29, 2008, 2:09 PM
:previous:
:previous:
I think I just found my new desktop! Gorgeous pic bro!

:tomato:

Complex01
Jul 29, 2008, 5:00 PM
That is a great pic. Looking Good. Cant wait to see it done and all lit up at night...

:wizard:

Jake2006
Jul 30, 2008, 12:32 AM
Well these pictures just keep topping each other but this one will be hard to beat. What a great picture.

mdiederi
Jul 30, 2008, 3:26 AM
CityCenter is having trouble finding more financing to finish the project.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=alHxxqo1pZ_Y

Guess they won't be buying the Cosmo any time soon.

CosmoVegas
Jul 30, 2008, 8:11 PM
Saying it's temporary...not a good sign if you ask me.

mdiederi
Jul 31, 2008, 1:33 AM
Floor collapsed on that building under construction across from the convention center near the Riviera. Can't ever remember the name of that one.

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=8763404

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/mdiederi/buildings/8763404_BG1.jpg
©KLAS

neworleans
Jul 31, 2008, 1:38 AM
Marriott Springhill Suites

ScottG
Jul 31, 2008, 1:39 AM
to throw a slap in the face at city center - echelon put up a huge banner right in the middle of the core, at the top that simply reads in red SAFETY FIRST

thats the first time ive ever seen a construction site 'express' themselves on the tower - usually maybe a sign advertising the building company but nothin this blunt!

mdiederi
Jul 31, 2008, 2:25 AM
Marriott Springhill Suites

Thanks.

mdiederi
Jul 31, 2008, 2:32 AM
to throw a slap in the face at city center - echelon put up a huge banner right in the middle of the core, at the top that simply reads in red SAFETY FIRST

Speaking of which, another worker was seriously injured today at CityCenter.
http://lvsun.com/news/2008/jul/30/worker-injured-citycenter/

But, Echelon has had one fatality already, so I'm sure they don't want any more.
http://lvsun.com/news/2008/jun/17/echelon-latest-strip-construction-site-claim-life/

RandalR
Jul 31, 2008, 6:10 PM
Echelon's retail mall to be delayed:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/gaming/2008/jul/30/report-echelon-retail-mall-be-delayed/

laguna
Jul 31, 2008, 8:54 PM
CosmoVegas, you are correct, they told me that sales were suspended until the 'transition could be completed'. Construction apparently continues. I heard from a fairly good source that W doesnt like the condo component. This is a bit contradictory, since they proposed the Harmon complex which did have a large condo component. Maybe they look at things differently now? Who knows what the hell is going on. The sales team said that possibly mid August for news. We will see. I like the plan but I wouldnt hesitate to become an un-buyer at this point.

Aaron Auxier
Aug 1, 2008, 12:21 AM
Uncertainty about CityCenter, Lake Las Vegas, and now Echelon? What a week of bad news.

I hope all three of these things blow over.

neworleans
Aug 1, 2008, 7:59 AM
First of all, we are not going through a recession. The economy has just slowed down to a stand still.

For those of you, like realtors, who get paid commission, or for those of you who took out home and condo loans too big to pay back, I’m sorry. But this slow down in the economy is a wonderful thing. Homes were becoming so expensive that banks were handing out loans to people who could never afford them. So now they foreclose on them, and the bank can't sell the house for the value of the loan because no one is buying. So the bank has to drop the selling price and they end up loosing money. But that's good because it brings the house values back down to where they should be. Where people can now afford to buy homes and actually pay them off in their lifetime. I saw an old trashy 2-bed 2-bath house up for sale in the ghettos of San Diego for 650 thousand dollars. That’s ridicules!!! Homes were becoming too expensive and we're just bringing them back down to where they should be.

And the airline companies. Again, a wonderful thing. There were so many airline companies that none of them were making profit. Now many airline companies have gone bankrupt. So we illuminate all the smaller airlines and now the succeeding ones can make profit. And then when the gas prices go down, airline tickets will drop and more enmities, like food, will be added to the airlines again.

cosmo2k8
Aug 1, 2008, 1:39 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINWNAB436120080801?rpc=44

NEW YORK, Aug 1 (Reuters) - Casino operator Boyd Gaming Corp (BYD.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) said on Friday it has decided to delay construction of its new Las Vegas Strip casino called Echelon and suspended quarterly dividends.

The company also posted lower second-quarter profit as the U.S. economic slowdown reduced gambling revenue.

The company also said it has decided to delay the construction of Echelon due to the challenging economic environment. It plans to resume construction in three or four quarters, assuming credit market conditions and economic outlook improves.

Boyd had been paying quarterly dividends of 15 cents per share.

Boyd reported net income of $21.7 million, or 25 cents a share, compared with $22.1 million, or 25 cents per share, a year earlier.

Income from continuing operations slipped to 25 cents a share in the quarter from 26 cents a share a year before.

Excluding items, earnings in the quarter were 30 cents a share, down from a year-ago 45 cents a share. (Reporting by Euan Rocha, editing by Gerald E.

Vtown420
Aug 1, 2008, 2:46 PM
OMG, this is getting depressing. I guess the gloom and doomers have won. Are projects in other cities having the same problems getting financing?

Steven C.
Aug 1, 2008, 3:36 PM
as for echelon

My wife and i go to gold coast and orleans... one thing we noticed was that they started to change their restraunts and the quality standards started to fall. that was about three months ago.
getting rid of the local specials at smaller places like the monterry room at gold coast and replacing it with a TGI Fridays.
That is a sign it would seem that they are losing money and putting in safe bet type dining and whatnot.

what a shame about echelon. hard to believe they will just let it sit. that they cant get any sort of financing and no lender trusts them in the long run.

lfc4life
Aug 1, 2008, 3:38 PM
OMG, this is getting depressing. I guess the gloom and doomers have won. Are projects in other cities having the same problems getting financing?

well i know the 1050ft waterview tower in chicago has been left for a few months now about 20 floors or so completed, alot of major projects just starting construction are in danger imo

i think thats the end of echelon too, it was far too big a project for boyd to attempt and it has backfired on them bigtime :(

Aaron Auxier
Aug 1, 2008, 5:49 PM
Everyone in-between my last post and this one have great points. I am in real estate, but this time seems to be a much-needed clean out. I never knew when I moved here I was moving into the darkest days in the history of the city!

ScottG
Aug 1, 2008, 6:04 PM
can any one say Ryugyong Hotel?

Silas
Aug 1, 2008, 6:21 PM
Who else suspected Echelon would cancel?

Patrick
Aug 1, 2008, 6:25 PM
Well I'm actually very surprised about Echelon, but never was a fan of it, what a plain design, hopefully they redesign by the time construction restarts.

ScottG
Aug 1, 2008, 6:38 PM
i firmly beleive once city center is done - everything will be different - there will be more construction workers available - less of a demand on supplies - etc.

by that time too - fountainebleau will be done - cosmo will be done - the M resort - the venetian condo and encore

this will just bring in more people to vegas - if not slowly but surely -

then just another wave of a construction boomwill begin again -

think of all the jobs that will be created once these suckers open - where are these people coming from? vegas doed not have 70,000 unemplyeed (and qualified) people living here - we will need to ship em in!

we definitly have the houses for them to buy too!

lfc4life
Aug 1, 2008, 7:31 PM
more details emerging, it seems boyd had secured their financing cheaply before the credit crunch and already pre-purchased the materials necessary for their part but Morgans and GGP have failed to secure any sort of finance and it was unlikely they were going to in this market.

boyd could have pressed ahead without the boutique hotels and the mall but that would probably have seen their shares dive below $1 eventually

neworleans
Aug 1, 2008, 8:33 PM
Who else suspected Echelon would cancel?

Echelon is not canceled. it is just on hold until the economy picks up. And i love the design, i hope they do not change anything except maybe if they added more frontage to the strip

RandalR
Aug 1, 2008, 10:26 PM
i think thats the end of echelon too, it was far too big a project for boyd to attempt and it has backfired on them bigtime :(

Boyd won't be the ones who finish it. Likely in two or three years Steve Wynn or Sheldon Adelson will buy the lot for a song and build something nice there. And I wouldn't be surprised if they demolish the existing structure, first.

I'll bet El Ad will sell the Frontier lot, too.

Fontainebleau will get done, but they had better rethink the grandiose condo-hotel sales plans and focus on marketing themselves a place for Middle America to experience Florida-style luxury for less money.

Aaron Auxier
Aug 2, 2008, 2:09 AM
Boyd won't be the ones who finish it. Likely in two or three years Steve Wynn or Sheldon Adelson will buy the lot for a song and build something nice there. And I wouldn't be surprised if they demolish the existing structure, first.

I'll bet El Ad will sell the Frontier lot, too.

Fontainebleau will get done, but they had better rethink the grandiose condo-hotel sales plans and focus on marketing themselves a place for Middle America to experience Florida-style luxury for less money.

RandalR, I always see you making good, strong points.

fishordie
Aug 2, 2008, 2:21 AM
Back in 2005 I met with a number of key managers of several hotel/condo projects begging them to use, what appeared at that time as a windfall profit
for the developers who would see their properties double in worth upon the projected 2008 completion dates (Prior to the now well known real estate problems), to use that windfall to recreate Vegas in its old image. Create the lure of low cost and reasonable quality eateries, bring back the old charm of
customer service in its purest form, teach every employee from dealers to house keeping to front desk how to be gracious and welcoming even to the 21 year old first timer. In short, remake Vegas from its present pay now and pay later attitude to the old pay for a great few days and fun stay with us. Lure back the folks who pay the overhead and really dont care about all the glitz and glamour if they lose their simple pleasures like choices of Prime Rib or surf and turf for 6.99.

Somehow Vegas lost its way due to having to pay some outrageous mortgages and felt they needed the big fish to pay the bills. How many folks in this economy care about paying $17.00 for a cocktail so they can sit in a fancy room with other folks who mostly cannot afford the drink either???
How about 18 dollar hamburgers and fries so you can continue to lay on your lounge chair and let some waitress who scowls and most of the folks if they don't give a 15 dollar tip.

In todays economic climate I believe a reasonable budget for a customer service oriented hotel, not carrying a giant mortgage over its head that provides plenty of pool space, clean environs, smiling employees, etc. might just see an influx of patrons looking for the old Vegas Spirit. Perhaps the time is ripe to reduce the billion dollar interiors and get back to the business
of gambling for fun and providing a destination where Bill Gates or John Doe
can feel like they got something special for their hard earned dollars or should I say Peso's, Euro's, Yen or whatever currency is in favor at the time.

I have been preaching gloom and doom on this and other sites for the last 1.5 years based on my perception of the economy. I still have my own beliefs in this regard but do not need to express them on this thread preferring rather to stir up the pot and get other folks feeling about a Vegas Hotel that actually caters to those seeking customer service at a fair price.
After all a smiling and witty dealer or a welcoming front desk person costs the hotel nothing other than a bit of training from someone who actually understands customer service.

Our Vegas was unique and perhaps, if we try to stop competing with Dubai or Macow, we might just be again. For this Vegas person I could care less if Paris Hilton or the Sultan of Brunai is hanging out at a private Roulette table or the Hotel pool or bar. Let them eat cake I just want value for my bread.

FOD

RandalR
Aug 2, 2008, 4:20 AM
RandalR, I always see you making good, strong points.

Hey, I live at Turnberry Place - I have a vested interest in somebody in Vegas finally getting this economy figured out and playing it right. ;)

NYC2ATX
Aug 2, 2008, 5:58 AM
Wow, that (Echelon) was unexpected. (no sarcasm)

:eek: <--I really made this face when I read about it just now.

DMaldon762
Aug 2, 2008, 11:26 AM
http://www.vegasrex.com/2008/08/01/the-echelon-depression/

mdiederi
Aug 2, 2008, 6:18 PM
http://lvsun.com/news/2008/aug/01/boyd-citing-economy-delays-echelon-even-building-u/
Boyd had 100% financing secured for construction of their part of Echelon. But banks don't just hand out the entire amount at the start of construction, they pay it in stages. Unfortunately, right now the banking industry is on the verge of losing $5 trillion dollars in foreclosed mortgages and other defaults across the country. Interest rates are still low, but the banks don't have any money to lend.

Boyd pre-bought a lot of steel and other materials and they will be kept in storage until the financial market gets its act together.

vwwolfe
Aug 3, 2008, 4:33 AM
can any one say Ryugyong Hotel?

The Ryugyong Hotel is back under construction after a fifteen year hiatus.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151796

jazfingr
Aug 3, 2008, 5:32 AM
The Ryugyong Hotel is back under construction after a fifteen year hiatus.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151796


Wow, that's one butt-ugly building

neworleans
Aug 3, 2008, 6:33 AM
I saw the eastside cannery tonight, and i wish i could have gotten pictures because the building is all light up and it changes colors, from orange to yellow to green to blue and to a couple other colors.

mdiederi
Aug 3, 2008, 6:46 AM
Boyd won't be the ones who finish it. Likely in two or three years Steve Wynn or Sheldon Adelson will buy the lot for a song and build something nice there. And I wouldn't be surprised if they demolish the existing structure, first.
Neither Wynn or Adelson could get the money to buy it and build it right now. Adelson postponed construction of his new Sands convention center just a couple weeks ago for the same reasons.

ScottG
Aug 3, 2008, 4:47 PM
I saw the eastside cannery tonight, and i wish i could have gotten pictures because the building is all light up and it changes colors, from orange to yellow to green to blue and to a couple other colors.


i was just going to post that! - itsamazing - ive ALWAYS said that a tower should have lights on it - i thought planet hollywood would do it - it really catches attention and turns the hotel into a sign -

i really would not have thought the 'cannary' would do such a move - its on boulder highway - not really an exciteing spot for a 'freemont' light show - and the cannary is wel the theme is blue collar factory warehouse (LITERALLY)


buts its awsome - the silo tower hotel at night turns into fremont lights! - the entire tower is covered with thick horizontal bands of lights (not neon maybeits LED) - and for now they are maybe testing them becuase it just changes colors - while some bands were off the mark - - but it really catches the eye. they could really have alot of potential with it - depend on the sophistication of lights they installed - they could have an LCD screen visible from miles away! talk about exposure!


i never understood why no hotel has done this yet - think of planet hollywood

what better way to transform the tower into something new - by covering up eerything but the windows with LED - the podium is covered with them. this would just reinforce the whole 'timesquare' feel - AND the tower would be the central peice of the strip now -constantly changeing in color OR even better become a whole sign - either promoting PH or just splashing imagery along the building - i think that would be amazing - that would be visible throught the vally!

laguna
Aug 3, 2008, 5:44 PM
The condo/hotel boom in Las Vegas is a trend of the past and will not be a component of any future developments, following is my reasoning:

1. Unhappy buyers and lawsuits at MGM Signature.

2. Trump had a weak opening with layoffs and buyers not closing on units.

3. Fountainbleu not offering condo/hotel units even though they mentioned
them on their website, seems to indicate a change of mind on the concept.

4. Sales stopped on units at Cosmopolitan.

5. Financing virtually unavailable on condo/hotel units.

6. Lawsuits and problems at other condo/hotel projects (ie. Trump Chicago).

7. No real track record of successful condo/hotel concept. It is unproven and a big risk for hotel companies, with class action suits, unhappy owners to deal with.

This is all just speculation and I may be totally wrong. Just my 2 cents.

Jerry of San Fran
Aug 3, 2008, 9:01 PM
Las Vegas - City Center A view of the City Center underconstruction as seen from the Excalibar Hotel taken from my room on the 19th floor in July 2008.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3146/2728809441_136b562804_b.jpg

Jake2006
Aug 4, 2008, 7:26 PM
Laguna;

Just wondering what your source was for the unhappy buyers and lawsuits at the Signature. I wanted to read the article.

mdiederi
Aug 4, 2008, 10:48 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/mdiederi/buildings/citycenter/vdr.jpg

laguna
Aug 5, 2008, 12:04 AM
There have been several articles on it, here is one.

Las Vegas Sun
August 4, 2008


News A&E Opinion Sports Multimedia Guides Blogs Topics Politics Jobs
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Seeing no profits, condo owners sue
At issue: What hotel unit buyers were promised
By Liz Benston

Fri, Jan 4, 2008 (midnight)

Nevada's biggest Strip developer is embroiled in a dispute with mom-and-pop investors that offers a cautionary, buyer-beware tale involving the sale of high-rise residential units.

At issue: whether the developer insinuated that ownership of the Strip-front units would bring big profits.

In 2002, MGM Mirage partnered with Turnberry Associates, a major developer of condominium towers, to build a condo-hotel -- an animal new to Las Vegas but familiar to high-rise dwellers in other resort locales.

Some owners reside in the units part time and hope to make money by offering them for rent to outsiders, through a management company, the rest of the time.

The project, eventually called Signature, stirred potential investors and real estate watchers. Owning a piece of the Strip, with the backing of MGM Mirage, seemed like a sure thing.

Sales of the Signature units have generated more than $200 million in profit for 50 percent partner MGM Mirage.

But they have been a money-losing proposition for buyers with hefty mortgage payments.

With maintenance fees topping $1,000 a month plus mortgage payments on units, many of which sold for between $600,000 and $800,000, some buyers are paying thousands of dollars a month for their units without sufficient rental income to offset their costs.

Although rooms in Strip casinos continue to command rates in the hundreds of dollars a night, Signature rooms have generally rented for less than $200 a night -- not enough to cover monthly expenses on the units.

More than 40 Signature owners, of about 1,640, have sued the developers for fraud, saying they were lured to buy the units by promises of net profits generated by rental income. In some cases, they said, sales agents told buyers they could expect to charge room rates comparable to those of luxury Strip resorts and that the value of their units would likely increase as future towers were built and sold.

“Had they told us upfront that they couldn't guarantee a nickel of income, not one investor would have looked at this as a good idea,” said Rory Agnello, a real estate broker and Las Vegas resident who bought two studios in the first of Signature's three condo towers in 2004. “Instead, they took the Campbell's soup approach, saying ‘Trust us, this will make money.' In truth, these things have been disastrous.”

A Turnberry Associates attorney notes that, high in the sales contract, buyers are warned not to rely on oral representations.

Agnello says his studios have rented for an average of $175 a night -- much less than the $400 a night he expected based on “comparable” luxury rooms on the Strip.

Owners receive 60 percent of the nightly rent, which is actually closer to half when fees and taxes are factored in, he said.

Agnello says his studios sometimes fetch as little as $99 a night through the front office, which is good for hotel occupancy and filling the casino but attracts bargain hunters, some of whom have “destroyed” the well-appointed rooms, going so far as to steal bedding.

“They care about occupancy. They want people spending money at MGM Grand,” Agnello said of MGM Mirage and Turnberry.

Steve Morris, the developers' attorney, said owners should have carefully read their sales contracts.

“This was a straightforward condo purchase drafted and reviewed in accordance with state law. There are no promises made anywhere in the contract.”

Disclaimers in sales contracts make it difficult for buyers to win a lawsuit, even in the case of overzealous marketing reps intent on closing deals, said Jared Beck, a Miami attorney who specializes in condo disputes.

“It's definitely fraud to tell somebody a material fact that's not true in order to get them to sign a purchase agreement,” Beck said. “However, if you orally make a promise of something that may or may not happen in the future, that's when things get muddy.”

As a rule, room rates aren't guaranteed because they vary with supply and demand, he said.

Tara Young, a Las Vegas real estate attorney who isn't involved in the case, said developers with disclaimers in their contracts can still get in trouble with regulators if they emphasize condos as a moneymaking investment opportunity.

State and federal securities rules require developers to register condos as an investment vehicle if they are primarily marketed that way. That process is onerous and involves issuing a voluminous prospectus similar to that required of public stock offerings. Developers can get around this requirement by prohibiting their sales agents from emphasizing rental income as an incentive to buy condominiums. Those who violate these rules can be required to pay restitution to buyers, including what they paid for the units plus interest, Young said.

While Young declined to discuss specifics of the case, she said it could, regardless of the outcome, lead developers to be more careful about how they pitch their products.

Attorneys say the suit is unusual among numerous condo disputes because it involves not failed projects or abandoned sales contracts but representations made prior to signing contracts.

Morris denies the units were sold as investments. The investment rules for condos are well-known and are included as a disclaimer in the contract, he said.

Young said developers might not have been as careful about the securities requirements a few years ago during the condo boom, when speculators were able to make money merely by flipping their units a few months after purchase.

“During the condominium boom people were less concerned about the technicalities because everyone was making money,” she said. “Now that projections aren't coming in as people planned some are going to be looking at legal ways to get out of their contracts.”

Joel Greene, a Miami broker who has been marketing condo-hotel units for more than five years, blames the rash of condo disputes on buyer greed, enabled by aggressive marketing.

“Instead of riding out a long-term investment that will probably be OK, some buyers are looking for their attorneys to bail them out,” he said.

Condo rentals “are intended to offset the costs of maintaining a second home” rather than to make a profit, he said. “If you're looking for cash flow, call your stockbroker.”

Greene says many brokers, in their zeal to close a sale, haven't been as forthcoming.

At Signature, units in subsequent towers sold for $100,000 more than similarly sized units in the first tower sold for just months earlier.

But nightly rental rates didn't rise along with prices, squeezing more recent buyers hardest.

“This problem has nothing to do with the housing market, Agnello said. “It has to do with a bad marketing program. They sold units at the wrong prices to the wrong people.”

Liz Benston can be reached at 259-4077 or at benston@lasvegassun.com.

Discussion: 1 comment so far…
By mojiade
1/18/08 at 6:30 p.m.
Suggest removal I would like to join this class action lawsuit as I am one of the disgruntled MGM owners.Any leads would be much appreciated
Moji
3014420436
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Aaron Auxier
Aug 5, 2008, 1:49 AM
Fantastic shot of Vdara mdiederi!

Jake2006
Aug 5, 2008, 1:59 AM
Thanks laguna. Sure sounds like a mess. I have to say though that I've been coming to Vegas for 40 years and rarely have paid $400/Night. Except for a few of the mid strip higher end properties, I don't know of any that command that type of rate throughout the year. Even Wynn and Bellagio have rates lower than that at various times. And the Signature is not really even on the strip. I'm not sure how they expected to command that type of rate.

If I read the article correctly, out of 1640 units sold, only 40 are involved in law suits. I would like to know if the other 1600 owners are unhappy with their purchase. People buy condo hotel units for different reasons. While some buy to flip and make a quick profit, others buy for the convenience of having a second home in a desirable area of the county.

I think condo hotels have their place but I don't think people should buy with the idea of making a lot of short time profit. If they are looking to flip the investment (especially in this type of economy), I think they are taking (or took) an unacceptable risk. In the long run, however, I think they are here to stay.

ScottG
Aug 5, 2008, 3:34 AM
remember the MOON resort?

check this out! www.moonworldresorts.com

looks like they are serious (or just crazy)

also heres a 10 min presentation on the thing -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g75DpUH_4Ww

bigger than disney world - and totaly a product of the 90s - but i didnt see any evidence of this actually being meant for vegas?

mdiederi
Aug 5, 2008, 6:47 AM
Moon!:lmao:

A couple of Veer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/mdiederi/buildings/citycenter/veer.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/mdiederi/buildings/citycenter/tilt.jpg

jazfingr
Aug 5, 2008, 10:26 AM
remember the MOON resort?

check this out! www.moonworldresorts.com

looks like they are serious (or just crazy)

also heres a 10 min presentation on the thing -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g75DpUH_4Ww

bigger than disney world - and totaly a product of the 90s - but i didnt see any evidence of this actually being meant for vegas?


That's an old video of a long dead proposal

DowntownGymRat
Aug 5, 2008, 12:55 PM
Why would it be so horrible for Echelon to break up the project into phases? Out here in LA, the LA Live complex technically got started a decade ago with the completion of the Staple Center. That's regarded as being the first phase and with it's success paved the way for the Nokia Theater opening last year and this year will bring much more including ESPN's West coast broadcasting center with the Ritz Carlton rounding it out in 2010. I think if Echelon went ahead with phases and continued with what they can handle during this tough time, it would be beneficial for everyone. Seems better than letting a bunch of steel stick out of the ground for the next year.

RandalR
Aug 5, 2008, 2:46 PM
I think if Echelon went ahead with phases and continued with what they can handle during this tough time, it would be beneficial for everyone. Seems better than letting a bunch of steel stick out of the ground for the next year.

I suspect Boyd does not actually have enough money to keep going - their stated reason for stopping construction is just for public consumption. Another few months of work and they would be bankrupt.

Otherwise, it would make sense to do as you suggest and build the project in phases, but stopping allows them to tell their shareholders a plausible story that they are conserving cash until times are better. Then in a year or so they can announce that construction will not resume and the lot is for sale, and they won't take the same hit to their share price that they would take if they admitted that today.

mdiederi
Aug 5, 2008, 3:46 PM
I suspect Boyd does not actually have enough money to keep going - their stated reason for stopping construction is just for public consumption. Another few months of work and they would be bankrupt.


I think it's more like the banks are going bankrupt. Boyd made a billion dollars profit last year, they have plenty of cash to service the loan. But the banks wanted to change the terms on the already approved loan for Boyd's part of the project, and the banks couldn't come up with any money for the joint venture parts of Echelon. The reason is because the banks don't have any money after losing it all in the subprime mortgage quagmire. It's a national problem, not a Las Vegas problem.

Anyway, MGM just announced that they have secured half of the remaining financing for CityCenter...two months late (they still need more though). Maybe the Echelon delay freed up some bank money.

Jake2006
Aug 5, 2008, 4:07 PM
MGM gets City Center financing

http://www.reuters.com/article/industryNews/idUSN0530552320080805

justdefended
Aug 5, 2008, 5:38 PM
Investors were so elated that MGM secured $1.65 billion for CityCenter that the 69 percent decrease in quarterly profit was a little more than an expected footnote.

I think CityCenter will be great for MGM, despite all current hazy outlooks.

In the latest quarterly figures, Bellagio and Mandalay Bay actually held increased earnings from a year ago, indicating that the high-end market is much more resilient. Figures from Wynn were also in similar capacity.

With projects like Echelon and The Plaza delayed or on hold, a large focus will be placed on CityCenter being the next big thing and I don't think it could disappoint tourists. It's huge, high-end, over-the-top, and a density that's never been done on the strip. I'm glad its one project that's actually getting built to its full standard, because the $11 billion design would never pass in today's climate.

DrT
Aug 5, 2008, 8:42 PM
The condo/hotel boom in Las Vegas is a trend of the past and will not be a component of any future developments, following is my reasoning:

1. Unhappy buyers and lawsuits at MGM Signature.

2. Trump had a weak opening with layoffs and buyers not closing on units.

3. Fountainbleu not offering condo/hotel units even though they mentioned
them on their website, seems to indicate a change of mind on the concept.

4. Sales stopped on units at Cosmopolitan.

5. Financing virtually unavailable on condo/hotel units.

6. Lawsuits and problems at other condo/hotel projects (ie. Trump Chicago).

7. No real track record of successful condo/hotel concept. It is unproven and a big risk for hotel companies, with class action suits, unhappy owners to deal with.

This is all just speculation and I may be totally wrong. Just my 2 cents.

Excellent point.
The new formula should be, as the old, condos AND hotels, not condo-hotels.

bluejudad
Aug 6, 2008, 8:50 PM
Thanks laguna. Sure sounds like a mess. I have to say though that I've been coming to Vegas for 40 years and rarely have paid $400/Night. Except for a few of the mid strip higher end properties, I don't know of any that command that type of rate throughout the year. Even Wynn and Bellagio have rates lower than that at various times. And the Signature is not really even on the strip. I'm not sure how they expected to command that type of rate.

If I read the article correctly, out of 1640 units sold, only 40 are involved in law suits. I would like to know if the other 1600 owners are unhappy with their purchase. People buy condo hotel units for different reasons. While some buy to flip and make a quick profit, others buy for the convenience of having a second home in a desirable area of the county.

I think condo hotels have their place but I don't think people should buy with the idea of making a lot of short time profit. If they are looking to flip the investment (especially in this type of economy), I think they are taking (or took) an unacceptable risk. In the long run, however, I think they are here to stay.

I am very happy with my Signature suite!

Jake2006
Aug 7, 2008, 12:21 AM
I am very happy with my Signature suite!

Good to hear that. You hear so many negative comments and news you begin to wonder if everyone is unhappy. Of course, if some were deliberately misled then they should have the right to redress. By the way, in the MGM conference call yesterday they said all of the 1700 Signature units have been sold and that 54% of all units at City Center have been sold including 17 in Dubai.

mdiederi
Aug 7, 2008, 1:53 PM
Some people are still betting on the future of Vegas. In the past couple months a company called Sapir TIC LLC bought the 58-acre former W site next door to the Hard Rock from Africa Israel Investments and Edge Resorts for $12.8 million per acre.

http://www.globest.com/news/1213_1214/lasvegas/172836-1.html