[Nowhereman1280]

Peace Time spending? You are aware of the two front war going on right now in Iraq and Afghanistan, right? That alone is sucking up a few billion each month.

Not that I agree that our current budget is justified by this, but its more like ten or twenty billion a month...

I'm not surprised cities with established transit systems want a larger slice of Federal revenues, but I disagree, the Feds should be spending more for new transit systems in cities without any.

On a national scale, there are far more voters in cities without any rail transit or with growing rail systems than in cities with established rail systems.

Ok, but remember that the current infrastructure used by the CTA was not built (with the exception of the subways and the Orange Line) by the government. Almost all of the EL was privately constructed (before Unions and federal subsidization of the automobile made it cost prohibitive) by private industry. When compared with cities like Dallas where the entire system has been constructed with public dollars, the CTA is has probably received billions less dollars from public coffers. I think its ridiculous that a public transit agency is running on privately constructed infrastructure from 120 years ago and receiving less money in some cases from the government than systems that are entirely government funded.

[electricron]

Not that I agree that our current budget is justified by this, but its more like ten or twenty billion a month...



Ok, but remember that the current infrastructure used by the CTA was not built (with the exception of the subways and the Orange Line) by the government. Almost all of the EL was privately constructed (before Unions and federal subsidization of the automobile made it cost prohibitive) by private industry. When compared with cities like Dallas where the entire system has been constructed with public dollars, the CTA is has probably received billions less dollars from public coffers. I think its ridiculous that a public transit agency is running on privately constructed infrastructure from 120 years ago and receiving less money in some cases from the government than systems that are entirely government funded.

Look at the way FRA and FTA capital funds are appropriated to transit agencies. For the past decade or so, they have been targeted for NEW rail lines. If Chicago wants some of this cash, how about building some new rail lines and expand their system?

Eventually, these programs will be targeted for maintenance on established lines. But not now.

[Chicago Shawn]

I don't know if anybody went to the Yellow Line Extension Open House, but it occurred on April 30th. Since I'm down here in New Orleans, I couldn't exactly go myself, but CTA has been quite diligent about posting the presentation on their website quickly.

The analysis process narrowed it down to heavy rail, using the UPRR Alignment on an elevated structure with a fork to the east at 94, terminating in a station at the interchange of 94/Old Orchard Road. This station is not integrated with the mall, but it's not inconceivable that the mall could expand with a "Yellow Line concourse" lined with shops that links the station into the mall.

The project will also include a reconstructed Dempster Station, elevated over Dempster. Oddly, the expansion will be single-track. This lowers construction costs and fits better into a limited right-of-way, and CTA is, I assume, not expecting train frequencies to require two tracks.


Thanks for posting the images. The alignment was chosen to get as close to the mall as possible, without going onto the mall property. This is because the Westfield corporate office was very much opposed to running the line on their property; this was despite local management being fully in favor of the idea. I guess Westfield doesn't believe shoppers arrive by train, or perhaps they think having the train on mall property will lead to "security problems". Either way, its a little annoying. There are trip generators west of I-94 that could be serviced by this station including office buildings, Old Orchard Woods and the Circuit Court, but I doubt many will be walking across the rebuilt interchange which will only make the area less pedestrian friendly.

[Mr Downtown]

Various decisions made by the consultants and other players have turned this into a why bother project. Having determined that the line could not have grade crossings, and that the powerline pylons could not be relocated, they end up with a single-track extension (to avoid powerline sag) that nonetheless requires demolition of the new Dempster Station and still doesn't quite get to Old Orchard.

Given the dispersed nature of the destinations, which are both east and west of the Edens, probably a better idea would be to just turn the ROW into a busway that shuttle buses from the mall, the courthouse, Old Orchard Woods, etc., could use for a quick nonstop run to Dempster Terminal.

[Chicago Shawn]

Look at the way FRA and FTA capital funds are appropriated to transit agencies. For the past decade or so, they have been targeted for NEW rail lines. If Chicago wants some of this cash, how about building some new rail lines and expand their system?

Eventually, these programs will be targeted for maintenance on established lines. But not now.

And connect to those new rail lines to what, a 120 year old system that is literally falling apart in places? The trains have had to slow down to 6 MPH in places because the tracks and structure beneath them is in such poor shape. In order to step up maintenance, CTA had to borrow against future funding with interest. In order to even rebuild the existing lines, former CTA presdient Frank Kursi was able to manipulate New Starts funds to pay for reconstruction rather than new construction, probably because the alternative would be shutting the line down.

[Chicago Shawn]

Various decisions made by the consultants and other players have turned this into a why bother project. Having determined that the line could not have grade crossings, and that the powerline pylons could not be relocated, they end up with a single-track extension (to avoid powerline sag) that nonetheless requires demolition of the new Dempster Station and still doesn't quite get to Old Orchard.

Given the dispersed nature of the destinations, which are both east and west of the Edens, probably a better idea would be to just turn the ROW into a busway that shuttle buses from the mall, the courthouse, Old Orchard Woods, etc., could use for a quick nonstop run to Dempster Terminal.

I agree 100%, but if the cost estimates come out about even, then rail is probably a better option. A one-seat ride option is preferable for attracting users, has lower emissions and lower operational costs. I would imagine that bus connections to the court house can still be done by just utilizing the existing CTA 205 route, and two PACE Routes, the 208 and 422. 54A can be short turned at Dempster Street for some additional savings.

[sammyg]

And connect to those new rail lines to what, a 120 year old system that is literally falling apart in places? The trains have had to slow down to 6 MPH in places because the tracks and structure beneath them is in such poor shape. In order to step up maintenance, CTA had to borrow against future funding with interest. In order to even rebuild the existing lines, former CTA presdient Frank Kursi was able to manipulate New Starts funds to pay for reconstruction rather than new construction, probably because the alternative would be shutting the line down.

But where do they get the maintenance money? They can't reject the funding for new rails and get funds for something else instead.

[whyhuhwhy]

Peace Time spending? You are aware of the two front war going on right now in Iraq and Afghanistan, right? That alone is sucking up a few billion each month.

What kind of question is that? No I wasn't aware we were still spending money on a war with Iraq and Afghanistan. :jester: One thing for sure, there is no global world war going on right now!

[whyhuhwhy]

My response was to the word “Unprecedented” being used. Is the spending now “Unprecedented”? I get tired of the hysterical libertarians.

Have you read what the Transportation stimulus dollars for our state is? It's pathetic. It's all road resurfacing! Nothing new! http://www.dot.state.il.us/stimulus/index.html

We are creating new debt that makes the old debt look like peanuts. And for what? Stuff like that? If we can't question what the heck we are getting for our money what the heck does that say? It's sad that when you only QUESTION the massive spending we are doing right now you are just written off as a "hysterical libertarian." Come on let's grow up here and not make this personal. Is it wrong to question all this new debt just because Obama and not Bush is the one creating it? That seems to be the tone in here. Can we get past that in this forum? As someone helping pay for all this, you said it yourself, we should at least know what we are getting for the dollar. Not sure why we just only trust the politicians and hand over the keys with no discussion just because the United States Government in 2009 now looks like Illinois rather than Texas. $8 billion for things like high speed rail is great but it gets lost in the $787 billion in massive spending we are doing on other things that are not investment quality IMO.

[the urban politician]

Various decisions made by the consultants and other players have turned this into a why bother project. Having determined that the line could not have grade crossings, and that the powerline pylons could not be relocated, they end up with a single-track extension (to avoid powerline sag) that nonetheless requires demolition of the new Dempster Station and still doesn't quite get to Old Orchard.

Given the dispersed nature of the destinations, which are both east and west of the Edens, probably a better idea would be to just turn the ROW into a busway that shuttle buses from the mall, the courthouse, Old Orchard Woods, etc., could use for a quick nonstop run to Dempster Terminal.

^ Count me in as one of those why bother people.

If the assholes at Westfield are against extending the rail line onto their property, which is silly because the whole idea of the Yellow Line extension is to extend the rail line to Old Orchard Mall (from which I'm sure Old Orchard merchants will benefit), then let them go fuck themselves (a lingo we often use in New York).

They seem to do fine without the train extension, and pretty much all of the retailers that Old Orchard has already exist in the city. Why should the CTA bother with this expensive extension?

[Chicago Shawn]

What kind of question is that? No I wasn't aware we were still spending money on a war with Iraq and Afghanistan. :jester: One thing for sure, there is no global world war going on right now!

It was a rhetorical question. This is not a time of global war, but this certainly isn't peace time, and the budget reflects that. That is all I was responding to.


But where do they get the maintenance money? There will be some operational savings from short turning the 54A, and ridership growth will bring in some more farebox revenue. Whether or not that offsets the additional maintenance costs, I don't know.

[Chicago Shawn]

^ Count me in as one of those why bother people.

If the assholes at Westfield are against extending the rail line onto their property, which is silly because the whole idea of the Yellow Line extension is to extend the rail line to Old Orchard Mall (from which I'm sure Old Orchard merchants will benefit), then let them go fuck themselves (a lingo we often use in New York).

They seem to do fine without the train extension, and pretty much all of the retailers that Old Orchard has already exist in the city. Why should the CTA bother with this expensive extension?

The local management was very much in favor of the extension coming to the doorstep of the mall. I have heard they were even talking expansion plans around it. It was Westfield Corportate down in Australia that was opposed. I think it will still generate increased ridership, but the alignment is disappointing. The terminal is in the worst location for pedestrian connections, making people walk through parking lots to the mall; and its too difficult to walk west of the Edens for the average person to do it willingly. The single track also rules out future extensions and restricts headways. I can see delays already at Dempster, should a train leave Old Orchard behind schedule. I do believe that the mall will probably grow towards the train over time, placing expansions on the open lots.

[ardecila]

The problem I see is that the main intervening parking lot between the station and the mall is owned not by Westfield but by the mid-rise modernist office building. Some sort of deal would have to be struck to trade their parking for parking in CTA's garage, and then Westfield would have to buy the land and build on it. In short, it seems pretty unlikely, even though I did say it was possible earlier.

What is perhaps a little more possible is that the reconstruction of the Old Orchard Road interchange will offer a more complete set of sidewalks, perhaps with crossing signals, safety barriers, and streetscaping, and this project will also include expanded sidewalks along Old Orchard Road both east and west of the interchange to accommodate pedestrian travel.

The government of Skokie seems fairly enlightened in their approach to transit, so surely they would recognize this problem and either improve it themselves or push CTA to do it.

[OhioGuy]

What's so bad about the location of the yellow line at Old Orchard Road? It's barely a two block walk from the station to the mall. And as pointed out, the mall will have the option to expand toward the station in the future. Yeah, it's not exactly ideal having people walk alonside or through the parking lots that currently occupy the space between Old Orchard and the proposed station, but it's still only two blocks. And regarding the office parks on the other side of the Edens, they're still within walking distance. The location of this station keeps just about everything (the mall, high school, office parks, and the hospital) within a 10 minute or less walk from the proposed station.

As for a single track, that doesn't seem to be that big of an issue to me either. It's not likely the yellow line would be extended in the future because that's just extending the line further & further into the suburbs. If you live beyond Skokie, you might as well go to a Metra station to get into the city rather than taking a CTA train that has many many many stops along the way. And in terms of frequencies, how much time is it estimated a train will take to travel from Dempster to Old Orchard and back?

[Mr Downtown]

^What's bad is that it's a long unpleasant walk to any of the actual destinations. Even the walk to the mall would be long enough that only employees would ever actually do it. There's a big psychological difference between a 1300-foot walk through a suburban parking lot and a 1300-foot walk down Michigan Avenue. And a long walk from the terminal west to an office building, over the top of the Edens and then past the entrance ramps and forest preserve and parking lots, is something that only the nondriving immigrant cleaning staff would ever even attempt. Look at the infinitesimal number of employees in Cumberland Road office buildings who arrive via the Blue Line.

[the urban politician]

What's so bad about the location of the yellow line at Old Orchard Road? It's barely a two block walk from the station to the mall. And as pointed out, the mall will have the option to expand toward the station in the future. Yeah, it's not exactly ideal having people walk alonside or through the parking lots that currently occupy the space between Old Orchard and the proposed station, but it's still only two blocks. And regarding the office parks on the other side of the Edens, they're still within walking distance. The location of this station keeps just about everything (the mall, high school, office parks, and the hospital) within a 10 minute or less walk from the proposed station.


^ What's wrong is that an organization known as the CTA is trying to extend a mass transit line to connect hundreds of thousands of train riders to a shopping center, and instead of appreciating it the foreign-based owner of the shopping center is being a total douche bag about it, even ignoring its own management. So why waste the time and energy? Let Old Orchard have its car-only access for another 50 years and lets focus on mass transit expansions elsewhere.

This is EXACTLY why we should focus more on projects like the Clinton subway, Carrol Ave/Clinton transitway, etc where building mass transit actually makes sense.

[ChicagoChicago]

My response was to the word “Unprecedented” being used. Is the spending now “Unprecedented”? I get tired of the hysterical libertarians.
Are you really trying to argue that the current spending is NOT unprecedented? The link you showed cited WWII as the largest federal spending in relation to GDP. A time when we committed nearly 2 million soldiers to the war, and countless people back home supporting it. That's what you compare our current spending to? Your argument is an EPIC FAILURE.

[denizen467]

How much prospect would there be for Old Orchard Terminal to become a big park-n-ride facility?

[ardecila]

That's the point... bringing the park-n-ride business of the Yellow Line closer to the Edens where it's more accessible and visible to regional traffic. Garages are planned at Old Orchard and (I think) Dempster. Some of the garage at the Old Orchard station will be dedicated to providing replacement spaces for Niles North, who is trading away their parking lot. However, higher stories of the garage would be set aside for CTA riders.

Unfortunately, this gigantic garage will only serve as one more impediment between the new station and the mall, as if 1/4 mile of surface lots wasn't enough.

Dammit, why does CTA make such half-assed connections to everything? Back in the day, department stores would beg to have their own connections into the CTA system - Carson Pirie Scott used to have connections to the Loop and to the State Street Subway, and the Merchandise Mart still has its connection. Recently built connections, however, tend to be highly inconvenient. At Midway, you have to walk a really long way - not fun with heavy suitcases - and go up and down several flights of stairs. At Clinton, you have to walk down the stairs, down to the Randolph concourse (if it's open) then up another flight of stairs to get to the platforms at Ogilvie.

Business leaders in the city love the CTA for bringing their employees to work, but when it comes to any sort of concrete statements of support, they all scoff and cite security concerns. It's high time that we started getting some property owners who welcome CTA service to their buildings.

[wrab]

^ Yeah - it boggles my little mind that any retail operator would eschew a dedicated transit link.

^What's bad is that it's a long unpleasant walk to any of the actual destinations. Even the walk to the mall would be long enough that only employees would ever actually do it. There's a big psychological difference between a 1300-foot walk through a suburban parking lot and a 1300-foot walk down Michigan Avenue. And a long walk from the terminal west to an office building, over the top of the Edens and then past the entrance ramps and forest preserve and parking lots, is something that only the nondriving immigrant cleaning staff would ever even attempt. Look at the infinitesimal number of employees in Cumberland Road office buildings who arrive via the Blue Line.

I can attest to that, having done such a walk once last year en route to the Apple Store, close to the Christmas holiday, when there was scant parking available. I had trouble just finding a sidewalk. The mall exists in that special kind of American hell that is all paved lots, auto exhaust, and fast food joints.

[Chicago3rd]

Are you really trying to argue that the current spending is NOT unprecedented? The link you showed cited WWII as the largest federal spending in relation to GDP. A time when we committed nearly 2 million soldiers to the war, and countless people back home supporting it. That's what you compare our current spending to? Your argument is an EPIC FAILURE.

It is factually percentage wise not unprecedented. It doesn't matter where the money goes to...WWII or now....it isn't unprecedented. Unprecedented would be above WWII.

[denizen467]

I guess one thing that a big park-n-ride garage at Old Orchard would do is open up, to people living in Glenview, Skokie, Niles, and places nearby, the possibility of taking the el to Wrigley Field or to music concerts (Aragon, Riviera, Vic, Park West, Metro, Morse Theater, etc etc) or myriad other places along the Red Line that aren't particularly accessible using Metra.

Many might even realize they can have an extra beer or two at the game or concert because it would wear off by the time they return to their car at Old Orchard.

In fact the only other really public park-n-ride facility I can think of on the Purple Line is the giant Evanston municipal garage across from Davis Street Station (not sure about Central Street Station and Wilmette has small capacity). So this is kind of a new concept for the northern suburbs that might invite new uses.

[Mr Downtown]

How would a Park 'n Ride at Old Orchard differ a great deal from the existing one on Dempster Street in encouraging transit use?

[denizen467]

Admittedly I'm not very familiar with the Dempster station; I've only driven by and haven't taken a close look at it. But I'm pretty sure there isn't a large parking garage as with Old Orchard - and is Dempster parking even covered? Also, maybe it's just me, but I feel traffic and navigation are easier around Old Orchard, while Dempster is more congested.

Regarding users who would be making only the occasional trip into the city, one other difference is that most people couldn't find Dempster Station on a map without hunting for it, while Old Orchard is much more of a no-brainer. The easy recognition of being right on I-94 and right at the biggest shopping center in the region means it's "top-of-mind" information, making it less of a psychological jump for many people to find and use, especially if coming by highway. It would also be an easier place for groups of people to pick as a meeting place, especially with things to do (and eat) nearby while waiting for other people in the group.

But more generally, by reaching further north into the more "suburban-y" suburbs (in contrast to Skokie, kind of urban), you may be attracting people who really haven't been public transit users. And the idea of 11 minutes allllll the way to Howard would be pretty attractive to some.

Edit: Forgot one big point: Old Orchard extension ---> big jump in Yellow Line ridership ---> economically viable to extend operating hours and increase frequences (wishful thinking?), which benefits all Yellow Line stations.

[denizen467]

I'll also add the thought that the growing number of people buying condos or renting in Downtown Evanston - many of whom live there so that they don't have to use a car - suddenly can get to Old Orchard (without dealing with any buses). Travel time would be like 20 minutes, excluding waiting at Howard. NU undergrads also could be a group that finds this particularly appealing. Perhaps this would also slightly increase the appeal for others to move into the downtown there - Old Orchard being one of the (top 5?) biggest (non-outlet) malls in NE Illinois.

Since the 1980s and 1990s saw a bunch of retail decamp Downtown Evanston for Old Orchard, this kind of reunites residents with a full complement of shopping options once again (though it be a capitulation to suburbia's dominance, alas).

[ardecila]

^^ That seems a little crazy. I doubt many downtown Evanston residents or Northwestern students are going to go out of the way to Howard just to get to Old Orchard when several Pace and CTA buses would do the job without a transfer.

A suburban transportation story with regional implications:

Prairie Parkway: A road to nowhere?
U.S. Rep Bill Foster has other ideas for his district's use of funding for the proposed outer-belt expressway

Tribune staff reporter Mike Dorning in Washington contributed to this report | Tribune reporter
May 4, 2009

The fate of the Prairie Parkway remains uncertain barely six months after Congress approved $207 million for the fiercely debated highway that would cut a swath through Kendall County.

U.S. Rep. Bill Foster, a freshman Democrat whose 14th District would be bisected by the controversial outer-belt, is trying to pull the plug on what would be the Chicago region's latest major highway. Instead, he wants to spend the money on other road projects but will need congressional approval to do so.

Funding was earmarked for the parkway by Foster's high-profile predecessor, former Republican House Speaker Dennis Hastert, who resigned last year.

Some were skeptical that Foster could tamper with Hastert's pet project, but with a Democratic administration and Congress now in charge, he may have a good chance, observers say.

----

Foster and many parkway opponents believe the federal money would be better spent by improving existing highways, such as Illinois Highway 47 and bridges across the Fox River.

Foster also wants to widen Eola Road in Aurora from two to four lanes to eliminate a traffic bottleneck.

Rick Powell, the Prairie Parkway project manager at IDOT, said the state has no immediate plans to begin work.

---------

Jan Strasma is leader of the opposition coalition that calls the highway a "sprawlway" which will bring uncontrolled growth and wreak environmental damage.

"We would like to pronounce it dead," Strasma said, "but it's still on life support, and until the funding issues are ironed out at the federal and state level, I don't think we can pronounce it dead."

[VivaLFuego]

As long as its relatively easy (and, specifically, free) to park at Old Orchard, transit usage to access the mall will be fairly limited, and primarily consist of employees. That's not necessarily a bad thing - the same is basically true of the Orange Line extension to Ford City and South Cicero Ave. But if there's an easy and free option to drive, people with car access will generally choose to drive by an overwhelming share. The main question in cost-effectiveness then would be to what extent the extension does open up untapped markets for CTA rapid transit service and the places it serves. The Orange Line extension intuitively is a very strong candidate due to massive unmet demand for Loop-oriented transportation from the southwest side. I haven't seen the demand modeling for the Yellow Line extension, but I'm skeptical that there is a great deal of demand that isn't already met by some combination of the Dempster Park-n-Ride lot and Metra service. That said, if the single-track extension keeps costs low enough that it becomes cost-effective, then why not continue to pursue it? I believe travel time between Dempster and Old Orchard will be somewhere in the vicinity of 3-4 minutes, meaning service demand would have to increase dramatically before the single-track segment reached any capacity constraint.

[Chicago Shawn]

I took a look at the cost projections of the Yellow Line extension...

The locally preferred alternative as proposed: $270 Million Capitol cost, $1.9 Million Operational and maintenance.
Both the trench option and running all the way up the old ROW to Old Orchard are projected to be more expensive.


BRT: $40 Million capitol cost, $1.4 Million Operational and maintenance.

Projected ridership: 2 million with rail vs. 300,000 by BRT.

I think that this is justified. If ridership projections hold true, than an average paid fare of $1.00 per person would more than pay for the operational costs. Build it.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/alternatives_analysis/Yellow_Screen_2_Presentation_April_30_2009.pdf

[Chicago Shawn]

On the Prairie Parkway...

Hallelujah! Hopefully we can shelve this project once and for all. The real need for road expansions in this part of the metro are more bridge connections for the Fox River and selected road widening. For whatever reason, the Prairie Parkway plan calls for not only building the expressway but also widening Route 47 which parallels the proposed routing. This is wasteful redundancy, especially when most of the land in western Kane County has been targeted for agricultural preservation.

[the urban politician]

I took a look at the cost projections of the Yellow Line extension...

The locally preferred alternative as proposed: $270 Million Capitol cost, $1.9 Million Operational and maintenance.
Both the trench option and running all the way up the old ROW to Old Orchard are projected to be more expensive.


BRT: $40 Million capitol cost, $1.4 Million Operational and maintenance.

Projected ridership: 2 million with rail vs. 300,000 by BRT.

I think that this is justified. If ridership projections hold true, than an average paid fare of $1.00 per person would more than pay for the operational costs. Build it.

http://www.transitchicago.com/assets/1/alternatives_analysis/Yellow_Screen_2_Presentation_April_30_2009.pdf

^ If the extension is one track then I imagine that trains will only be inbound or outbound during certain times of the day, right?

So if I lived downtown and wanted to take the train to Old Orchard Mall at 8 am on a Tuesday would it even be possible, since that is during rush hour and I would assume that all trains would be inbound?

[Mr Downtown]

No, it's only about 1.5 miles/4 minutes from Dempster to Old Orchard. (That's one of the things that makes this why bother.) So you can just shuttle to Old Orchard and back along a single track at 10 minute headways.

[the urban politician]

^ I've generally been with you with the why bother argument (although Shawn's cost analysis is quite compelling), but I don't see a 4 minute difference as one of the reasons not to build it.

Four minutes at, say 30 mph, is certainly not that short of a distance. Add to that the fact that there is a college, a school, and the region's largest shopping mall at the end of the line, and it makes sense to go the extra short distance. My issue, of course, is the unwillingness of the mall owner to cooperate--to me that's the real kicker.

[SkokieSwift]

Admittedly I'm not very familiar with the Dempster station; I've only driven by and haven't taken a close look at it. But I'm pretty sure there isn't a large parking garage as with Old Orchard - and is Dempster parking even covered? Also, maybe it's just me, but I feel traffic and navigation are easier around Old Orchard, while Dempster is more congested.

There is a rather large park-n-ride lot (776 spaces) @ the Dempster Station.

Regarding users who would be making only the occasional trip into the city, one other difference is that most people couldn't find Dempster Station on a map without hunting for it, while Old Orchard is much more of a no-brainer. The easy recognition of being right on I-94 and right at the biggest shopping center in the region means it's "top-of-mind" information, making it less of a psychological jump for many people to find and use, especially if coming by highway.

Well, there's a Dempster exit off 94, and the station is only a half mile or so to the east, so finding the station should be a no-brainer.

. . .

However, if my screen name isn't obvious enough, I support the yellow line extension to Old Orchard and Oakton infill station (grew up 3 blocks from there), as well as additional infill stations for east Skokie and Evanston. As long as it stays SWIFT between the stations!

[Mr Downtown]

The ridership projections are pretty suspicious. If memory serves, they're predicting 3000 daily boardings at Old Orchard, when Dempster only has 1600. It's a long unpleasant walk to the office buildings or Old Orchard Woods. The "university" is a commuter college that nearly all students will continue to drive to in between jobs or other responsibilities. The high school is not attended by students living near either of the other two stops.

Now if the village had the courage to do Buckhead-style redevelopment of the single-family houses on the north side of Old Orchard Road, it might make sense as a regional investment. But otherwise, I say use $30 million to build a bus roadway, put the other $240 million in the bank and use the interest to run shuttle buses in perpetuity from Dempster to all four destinations.

[Abner]

Is it generally agreed that an extension to Old Orchard is a higher priority for the Yellow Line than an infill station or two on the current route?

If I were to decide how to spend $270 million on transit in the northern suburbs, I think I would choose to rehab the Purple Line before extending the Yellow. Of course, I have no idea how much the Purple Line would require to get to a state of good repair.

[denizen467]

There is a rather large park-n-ride lot (776 spaces) @ the Dempster Station.

Thanks for checking. But, where? I took a look at an aerial photo. I see very little near the station. I also see nothing covered, which would be a deal killer for many prospective rail users.

Well, there's a Dempster exit off 94, and the station is only a half mile or so to the east, so finding the station should be a no-brainer.
A no-brainer because you're from there.
Wading a half-mile into a suburb you've never been to, and a quasi-suburban, quasi-suburban one like Skokie, in a relatively visually monotonous area of 1960s-1970s architectural duds and strip malls and drive-thrus with few distinctive geographic features, is not a no-brainer. It's at least a little-bit-brainer, at least for the psychology of most car-centric suburbanites. You really have to set the hurdle low to get some people to use trains.

Also, can I just say, I'm very sorry but "let's meet in Skokie" or "Oh I usually just drive to Skokie" is still one of the most un-sexy things you can say in a group of people. Especially Glenview/etc/Northshore residents. "Old Orchard" has a little more of a chic ring to it (despite technically being in .. Skokie). It sounds superficial, but to a lot of people, most of Skokie is just a black hole or monotonous no-man's land betwen the Edens and the North Shore Channel. You figure out where the station is once, and ultimately you've forgotten the geography when the occasion arises to try the train again. I'm not taking pleasure in harshin' on Skokie or most of Skokie; just saying one of the prevailing outsiders' views is relevant here.

For Old Orchard, everyone knows where it is, you never forget where it is, it is not (or is less) visually unpleasant to pass through, and there is stuff to do and plenty of covered parking there. That is a no-brainer.

(Much of the above serves an addition to my initial response to Mr. Downtown's question about advantages of an Old Orchard park-n-ride over Dempster.)

[denizen467]

Is it generally agreed that an extension to Old Orchard is a higher priority for the Yellow Line than an infill station or two on the current route?

If I were to decide how to spend $270 million on transit in the northern suburbs, I think I would choose to rehab the Purple Line before extending the Yellow. Of course, I have no idea how much the Purple Line would require to get to a state of good repair.
I think the rehab would not be eligible for new starts funding.

[Abner]

Yeah, that part confuses me. We rehabbed the Douglas branch using New Starts funding, but presumably the Purple Line is not in such horrible shape that the same arguments the CTA made for that project would apply. I really hope the New Starts program gets some degree of reform; it drags project planning out, but more important, it illogically biases funding away from maintenance and repair.

[ardecila]

The Douglas branch didn't receive New Starts money because it was in worse shape than the Purple Line, but because Frank Kruesi had the political pull in Washington to get USDOT to accept the rehab project as a New Start. Same goes for the Green Line. Once you've got the important people agreeing with you, the spin is easy.

With strict New Start nazis in Washington, it's doubtful that even the Brown Line project would have passed, since it involved 0 new miles of rail.

I don't think a Purple Line renovation will be in the works for New Start funding anytime soon. Think about this: in the next 6-8 years, if everything goes according to the CAAP, CTA will be looking for New Starts funding for the following projects:

Red Line Extension
Orange Line Extension
Yellow Line Extension
Circle Line
Clinton Street Subway
Carroll Street Transitway
Monroe Street Transitway
Lakefront Transitway

Those are EIGHT major, major projects. Some of these may be combined, but the figures add up the same. The Lakefront Transitway is probably the smallest on the list, since 80% of it already exists, and the Circle Line will not be the complex rail line that everyone expected, most likely some form of busway instead. Regardless, we're talking ~$10 billion of transit projects here, and that's not even including the other things that are being discussed like Airport Express and the Blue Line Extension (to Lombard).

Nor does it include improvements to the Metra system - and let's face it, Metra's ambitions pale in financial comparison to CTA's. Even the STAR Line would run on existing tracks and would require only the construction of stations and signaling, plus trains and a yard somewhere. All relatively simple and inexpensive stuff to build out in the suburbs.

[schwerve]

^to be fair, clinton and the transitways will be done by CDOT as opposed to the CTA.

[the urban politician]

Funny thing about the Circle Line is that it already seems like a line that won't live up to its promise as a heavy rail line. If it's built as a BRT I'm guessing it will be even less useful. I sort of figure that if it's going to get built, it might as well be built as a rail line.

[SkokieSwift]

Thanks for checking. But, where? I took a look at an aerial photo. I see very little near the station. I also see nothing covered, which would be a deal killer for many prospective rail users.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/25/swift.jpg

Courtesy of google street views, here is a pic of the park-n-ride looking south from Dempster. The station is on the right. As you can see, the lack of covered parking isn't preventing the lot from filling up.

A no-brainer because you're from there.
Wading a half-mile into a suburb you've never been to, and a quasi-suburban, quasi-suburban one like Skokie, in a relatively visually monotonous area of 1960s-1970s architectural duds and strip malls and drive-thrus with few distinctive geographic features, is not a no-brainer. It's at least a little-bit-brainer, at least for the psychology of most car-centric suburbanites. You really have to set the hurdle low to get some people to use trains.

Dempster is a major thoroughfare for car-centric suburbanites from Skokie, Morton Grove, and Niles. I am guessing the vast majority of the riders boarding at Dempster are from these three villages. However, I agree that the blue bloods from up north would be more familiar and comfortable with an Old Orchard station.

[brian_b]

Does the CTA have any of the new rail cars in service? I ask because a train has gone into the Loop and come back out via the Lake Street El that was perfectly quiet except for motor noise. Based on pitch change, the electric motors were under load slowing down into the Clinton stop (regen?). Unless they have two trains with brand-new 100% round wheels in service on the Green Line, I'd say that the timing puts it on the Pink Line.

[Attrill]

Does the CTA have any of the new rail cars in service? I ask because a train has gone into the Loop and come back out via the Lake Street El that was perfectly quiet except for motor noise. Based on pitch change, the electric motors were under load slowing down into the Clinton stop (regen?). Unless they have two trains with brand-new 100% round wheels in service on the Green Line, I'd say that the timing puts it on the Pink Line.

They don't have any new ones in service - but they should begin testing the new cars anytime between now and mid summer. They are destined for the Blue (and Pink) line, so it may be possible the testing has started. Were there passengers on the train?

[brian_b]

They don't have any new ones in service - but they should begin testing the new cars anytime between now and mid summer. They are destined for the Blue (and Pink) line, so it may be possible the testing has started. Were there passengers on the train?

I can't tell from my apartment. It went by again; it's a very distinctive sound (or lack thereof). But it still could very well be an old train with brand-new wheels.

[Mr Downtown]

Last summer I began noticing that some Pink Line trains have a very different motor sound than the other trains. I questioned the CTA's chief electrical engineer but he didn't know what I could be referring to. But a few times a day I hear a train go by my office window that sounds different, and it's always a Pink Line train.

[ChicagoChicago]

They don't have any new ones in service - but they should begin testing the new cars anytime between now and mid summer. They are destined for the Blue (and Pink) line, so it may be possible the testing has started. Were there passengers on the train?Did they give a reason for using the blue and pink lines? Why would the CTA send the trains directly to an area where they will just be pissed in (blue)?

[Attrill]

Did they give a reason for using the blue and pink lines? Why would the CTA send the trains directly to an area where they will just be pissed in (blue)?

The Blue line is the first line to get the new trains (since they will be replacing the oldest trains the CTA has). At this point they still have to do test runs before accepting any trains for delivery and putting them into services. It's unclear when these tests will begin, but it should be very soon based on their announced timelines. I don't think they will have anyone riding them during tests.

The Pink line could very easily be part of the tests as well, due to the lines' connectivity.

[the urban politician]

Durbin lobbies for high-speed rail corridor between St. Louis, Chicago (http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=292226&src=143)
Associated Press
Published: 5/8/2009 9:19 AM | Updated: 5/8/2009 9:40 AM

ST. LOUIS -- Illinois Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois and Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill are lobbying for a high-speed rail corridor between St. Louis and Chicago.

The Democratic lawmakers were to meet privately Friday in St. Louis with Amtrak CEO Joe Boardman and officials with Union Pacific railroad and the Illinois Department of Transportation.

Initially, regional transportation offices will compete for the $8 billion included in the $787 billion economic stimulus spending package for high-speed rail.

The $8 billion is part of $64 billion in the stimulus package for roads, bridges, rail and transit.

Durbin says the money will be awarded on a competitive basis, and Friday's meeting will focus on the corridor's funding needs and how officials can lure stimulus money for the project.

[emathias]

...
ST. LOUIS -- Illinois Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois and Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill are lobbying for a high-speed rail corridor between St. Louis and Chicago.
...

I have to admit that I think rail upgrades between Chicago and Milwaukee, continuing on to Madison and then on to Minneapolis/St. Paul (preferably through Rochester) makes as much, if not more, sense as Chicago to St. Louis.

There are 85 non-stops flights a day to St. Louis from Chicago.

But 103 non-stops to Minneapolis.

PLUS 68 non-stops between Milwaukee and Minneapolis each day PLUS 20 non-stops between Madison and Minneapolis PLUS 78 between Madison and Chicago PLUS 8 between Madison and Milwaukee.

To me that shows the potential for a lot more passenger traffic for a CHI-MKE-MSN-MSP route than from a CHI-STL route, even if you factored in Springfield and/or Peoria and/or Urbana.

Plus, a CHI-MSP route gets senators from at least three states involved instead of just two.

Maybe that route just doesn't get the press of the CHI-STL route, but I wish it did.

[ardecila]

It's not like that, emathias. Durbin is lobbying for the Chicago-StL line BECAUSE 98% of the route is in Illinois, so construction dollars spent on that route would go to and benefit Illinoisans. The Twin Cities-Chicago route will obviously benefit Chicago, but since most of the trackage will be in Wisconsin, them (and Minnesota) are the ones pushing for it in DC. And TUP has done a fairly good job of ferreting out articles about high-speed rail from Milwaukee, Madison, and Twin Cities publications, so you can't say it hasn't gotten exposure.

[the urban politician]

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS May 8, 2009, 6:24PM ET text size: TT
Agreement reached on high-speed rail corridor (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D982B2900.htm)

By CHERYL WITTENAUER

MORE FROM BUSINESSWEEK

Union Pacific Railroad and the state of Illinois announced an agreement Friday to assess what must be done to operate both freight and high-speed passenger trains on the Chicago-to-St. Louis rail corridor.

The Omaha, Neb.-based railroad said it will provide the study to the Illinois Department of Transportation by June. The parties described the move as a critical step for Illinois to compete for federal funds to build a high-speed rail line in that corridor.

The announcement followed private talks Friday in St. Louis between Democratic Sens. Dick Durbin of Illinois and Claire McCaskill of Missouri and officials with Amtrak, Union Pacific and IDOT.

"IDOT and Union Pacific have a memorandum of understanding to outline the work needed to have a true high-speed rail corridor between St. Louis and Chicago," Durbin said afterward.

He noted that President Barack Obama has told the states that if they're interested in some of the $8 billion in federal economic stimulus funds designated for high-speed rail, they should "step up and be ready to compete."

"We've stepped up," Durbin said.

Durbin and McCaskill have been lobbying for a high-speed rail corridor between the two cities.

The $8 billion is part of $64 billion in the federal stimulus package for roads, bridges, rail and transit. It's part of an overall $787 billion economic stimulus spending package.

Durbin said the money will be awarded on a competitive basis.

McCaskill said she also will pursue high-speed rail for the St. Louis-to-Kansas City corridor.

"It's not just the East Coast that wants high-speed rail," McCaskill said. "It's the grand and glorious middle."

St. Louis Mayor Francis Slay applauded the senators for getting "things done." He said high-speed rail is "environmentally friendly, energy efficient and economical."

Illinois Transportation Secretary Gary Hannig said the agreement signed Friday with the railroad was first in the U.S. The study would be completed in time for the federal government's announcement of application guidelines in June. He said it would serve as a blueprint for asking Congress to help fund development of a high-speed rail corridor.

Robert Turner, a senior vice president for Union Pacific, said freight and passenger rail have coexisted unevenly, and that the challenge would be to integrate them. Before rail travel began declining in the 1960s, the Chicago-to-St. Louis corridor had separate tracks for passenger trains and freight. It was later reduced to a single track but the bed of the other track is still intact.

Turner said there are ways to accommodate the two. Slower-moving freight trains could be diverted on turnouts to make way for passenger trains traveling as fast as 110 mph.

The Chicago-to-St. Louis trip would be reduced from almost six hours to fewer than four.

Illinois will pay up to $400,000 for the study. Durbin said developing the line would create 10,000 construction jobs.

[denizen467]

Before rail travel began declining in the 1960s, the Chicago-to-St. Louis corridor had separate tracks for passenger trains and freight. It was later reduced to a single track but the bed of the other track is still intact.
I've always wondered about this! I know money is always the issue, but if the r-o-w and even railbeds are there, it seems like a no-brainer.
How many more routes around Chicago have unused railbeds still intact?

[VivaLFuego]

I've always wondered about this! I know money is always the issue, but if the r-o-w and even railbeds are there, it seems like a no-brainer.
How many more routes around Chicago have unused railbeds still intact?

The Illinois Central is an obvious one.

[denizen467]

^ Where does that run (where in the city, and where in the hinterland)?

[Mr Downtown]

the Chicago-to-St. Louis corridor had separate tracks for passenger trains and freight. It was later reduced to a single track but the bed of the other track is still intact.
I don't think this is correct. The Alton Road may have been double-tracked in places, but that's different from having separate freight and passenger train tracks.

The only place I've ever seen completely separate tracks is the IC north of Kensington, which was rebuilt with 10 tracks into downtown. Even there, I think the freights shared the four easternmost tracks with the long distance trains such as the Panama Limited and City of New Orleans, while the other six tracks were for suburban service.

In the late 80s, the IC single-tracked its mainline to Memphis and New Orleans, a bonehead move that they claimed would make the railroad more efficient.

[the urban politician]

Slow zone (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?articleId=31733)
By: Paul Merrion May 11, 2009
Chicago's economy has long been tied to its role as the nation's transportation hub, a position threatened by the recession.
While moving goods and passengers by air, truck, rail and barge accounts for barely 3% of Chicago's economic output, the transportation and warehousing sector draws manufacturers, distributors, service providers and corporate headquarters to the center of the nation's supply chain.

[BVictor1]

http://www.planning.org/tuesdaysatapa/index.htm

Streetcars
Tuesday, May 12, 2009 • 5:00 p.m.

Streetcars were the primary circulation system of all cities small and large during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Streetcars not only facilitated growth but influenced development patterns and even social structures. Starting in the 1920s, the rise in popularity of the automobile led to the decline of most streetcar systems. Now, cities around the country have reintroduced streetcars to "stitch together" revitalizing downtowns and to promote walkability.

David Wilson from the Chicago Transit Authority will revisit the history of streetcars in Chicago and discuss how other cities are making use of streetcars today.

David A. Wilson works as a Service Planner for Chicago Transit Authority analyzing transit routes for effectiveness and efficiency. After a career in freight transportation, David returned to school and received a master's degree in Urban Planning and Policy with a focus on Transportation from the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC) in 2006. He has presented programs on transportation history topics to a variety of community and academic organizations. He presented a paper on Streetcar Reintroduction at the 2006 annual meeting of the Association of Collegiate Schools of Planning, and as a guest lecturer at UIC he presented a program on the Evolution of Transit Technology.

[the urban politician]

I'm just curious about one tiny thing:

What is it about Ford City Shopping Center that is prompting leaders to look for expensive federal funding towards a heavy rail line extension?

If this seems like a silly question, I'm asking this because it seems like it's kind of arbitrary. There are suburban-type shopping centers all over the Chicago area, including within and in close proximity to the city, with no rail connections, no? I'm just curious how a transit line to Ford City got political backing. From my vague memories of visiting that site once, I think it consisted of a Sears, Marshalls, and a few other humdrum meat & potato stores. Certainly nothing spectacular.

I realize this is mostly about employees, but again it still seems arbitrary unless you're also using this as an opportunity for a large park & ride for southwest siders. Am I getting warm?

[Mr Downtown]

Ford City itself is probably only 800,000 sq ft of retail, but it's surrounded by another three million or so in big boxes or power centers. And it's thought that it would be a more convenient bus terminal, for Pace and CTA lines that converge from the southwest suburbs.

I have my doubts, however, that it will make the New Starts threshold for new ridership.

[ardecila]

Ford City was always the planned terminus for the Orange Line, since the initial planning in the 1980s. It's the

[denizen467]

I just realized Ford City is within the city limits (maybe I heard that before but it didn't quite register). Is there somewhere one can download a relatively detailed map of where the precise city limits are? It's kind of surprising how generally elusive this information is in the world of cartography.

[Berwyn]

Check out the Chicago GIS

http://egov.cityofchicago.org/city/webportal/portalDeptCategoryAction.do?BV_SessionID=@@@@0903860735.1242198840@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccccadehfefggddcefecelldffhdfhm.0&deptCategoryOID=-536886490&contentType=COC_EDITORIAL&topChannelName=SubAgency&entityName=Geographic+Information+Systems&deptMainCategoryOID=-536886490

[Mr Downtown]

You could also look at the online bike map (http://www.chicagocarto.com/bikemap/keymap.html)

Ford City area (http://www.chicagocarto.com/bikemap/usemaps/22-K.html)

[emathias]

I'm just curious about one tiny thing:

What is it about Ford City Shopping Center that is prompting leaders to look for expensive federal funding towards a heavy rail line extension?
...

There's more commercial businesses down there than people give it credit for, too. I suppose that better connections could mean better reverse-commute options, too.

[denizen467]

^ Thanks for the map links guys. The bike map in particular is really very nice. I think I've actually seen it in print once. I look forward to a PDF version.

[Mr Downtown]

Well, the bike map doesn't go up as a PDF, just as the HTML tiles. Printed paper copies shouldn't be too hard to come by. They're supposed to be at all Chase branches, City Hall, Active Transportation Alliance office, etc. The new edition (at the printer now) is sponsored by AT&T rather than Chase, so in June they'll probably be in AT&T stores.

[the urban politician]

Freight train traffic: Suburban leaders seek help from Obama in rail traffic fight (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-cn-railboardmay14,0,2873398.story)
By Richard Wronski | Tribune reporter
May 14, 2009
Several suburban state legislators and mayors called on President Barack Obama Wednesday to fill a vacancy on a federal regulatory board with someone sympathetic to their opposition to more freight trains in their communities.

State Sen. Linda Holmes (D-Aurora) introduced a resolution in Springfield calling on Obama to nominate a member to the Surface Transportation Board who will consider "significant community impacts related to public safety, noise, vibration, traffic congestion, and other environmental concerns..."

The board in December approved the Canadian National Railway's acquisition of the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern line through their suburbs. Canadian National purchased the line to divert freight traffic around Chicago's congested rail corridor.

"People felt like they spoke up but weren't listened to," Holmes said of the thousands of residents who opposed the deal at public hearings.

The board's three-member governing body has a vacancy due to the departure of W. Douglas Buttrey in March. Holmes and other officials asked Obama to make an appointment "that will protect communities from the unnecessary safety and economic concerns that can be caused by railroad expansion."

The officials cited letters Obama wrote as a U.S. senator in opposition to Canadian National's acquisition.

[pyropius]

Are there any signs that the cross-town right-of-way parallel Cicero is seriously being considered for rail development? This was an idea floating around a while ago, if I remember correctly.

Looking at a map, it seems that there is some (abandoned? partially built-over?) right-of-way extending north from the 90-94-Cicero interchange through Lincolnwood into Evanston. Does anyone know the story about this right-of-way? If the Cicero cross-town corridor ever came about, one could see this old right-of-way linking places like the Lincolnwood Town Center, the far northwestern Chicago neightborhoods, and maybe even downtown Evanston (with a half-mile subway from Church and Dodge to Church and Davis) in on this new "western north-south trunk line."

In short, it seems there are a few existing rights-of-way in underserved areas that could be put to more intense use and I was wondering if any plans existed to develop them.

[ardecila]

There are always plans, but there isn't always money. Chicago has defined priorities, and the Cicero corridor right now is low on that list. One only needs to look at the CTA's "Alternatives Analysis" page to see which projects are at the top: the Red, Orange, Yellow extensions and the Circle Line.

As I said earlier, the Circle Line will probably not be a rail line. In fact, the study might even push out a No-Build result, although more likely it will just be a quite cheap system of dedicated lanes (bye, parallel parking!) and traffic signal priority, something that can be done for under $200 million probably.

The downtown improvements in the Central Area Action Plan are the next group down on the priority list: projects like the 3 circulator lines and the Clinton St Subway. These have been associated with the Olympics, so there's a push to get them done soon. They may eclipse the four current expansion projects at CTA, or they may just get postponed, especially if we lose the Olympics.

After that are the grander and more expensive plans: Mid-City Transitway (Cicero corridor), Blue Line extension to Lombard, Brown Line extension to Jefferson Park, Airport Express, etc.

[Nowhereman1280]

In short, it seems there are a few existing rights-of-way in underserved areas that could be put to more intense use and I was wondering if any plans existed to develop them.

There are a ton of abandoned ROW's in the near northwest suburbs. I can think of at least two that cross Howard between the Northshore Canal and I-94.

[VivaLFuego]

Capital costs aside, one of the biggest questions for any fancy new rail transit service is how its operation will be paid for. Several cities (St. Louis and Dallas come to mind, and I'm sure others) have paired the opening of light rail lines with substantial bus service cuts - much moreso than just to routes paralleling the rail line. Short of cutting service, the only other options are: (1) new public revenue sources via taxes (which seem unlikely) (2) higher fares or (3) improved off-peak and reverse commute utilization of the system, so more revenue can be acquired without commensurate need to increase service levels. (1) & (2) are political hot potatos, and (3) is a land use question in a region that engages in zero comprehensive land-use/transportation planning as well as nearly zero meaningful regional planning to begin with. Long story short, I wouldn't get my hopes up for significant expansion of the rail rapid transit network outside of incremental construction at the margins, e.g. 2 mile extensions here, infill stations there, etc.

[pyropius]

About the land use issue:

Are there initiatives on the federal level to require local land use reform as part of the qualification for federal transportation funding? I imagine such an initiative could be sold on the federal level as "demanding a higher return on the public investment," while also insulating local politicians from NIMBY pressures, in a "my hands are tied" kind of way. It would be something like what often happens in Europe, where local politicians can retain popularity despite enacting painful reforms by claiming "Brussels is making us do it."

[lawfin]

About the land use issue:

Are there initiatives on the federal level to require local land use reform as part of the qualification for federal transportation funding? I imagine such an initiative could be sold on the federal level as "demanding a higher return on the public investment," while also insulating local politicians from NIMBY pressures, in a "my hands are tied" kind of way. It would be something like what often happens in Europe, where local politicians can retain popularity despite enacting painful reforms by claiming "Brussels is making us do it."


^^^Oh God, the wingnuts and ditto-heads would really be screaming their socialism screeds if that happened; so French so EU...UUUUUUUU

[denizen467]

After that are the grander and more expensive plans: Mid-City Transitway (Cicero corridor), Blue Line extension to Lombard, Brown Line extension to Jefferson Park, Airport Express, etc.
Is the Brown Line extension anything more than a twinkle in a geek's eye -- has it ever actually been identified by CTA or some other body as an actual potential project?

[ardecila]

^^ It was included in some official document that I saw. :shrug:

It's not in CMAP's 2030 Plan, but neither are the downtown transitways.

[emathias]

RTA hopes travelers go along with Goroo (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/autocorner/chi-getting-around_15may15,0,7778485.column)
Jon Hilkevitch | Getting Around, May 15, 2009

The name "Goroo" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, although it sounds like it might be a Pacific Rim noodle dish.

Goroo (pronounced "go-ru") actually is the morphing of "go" and "kangaroo," implying speed and going from place to place, according to the Regional Transportation Authority, which hopes the public hops onboard its new transportation tool.

Here's the URL: http://www.goroo.com/

I checked it out, and the FIRST transportation option it gives you is driving.

WTF. We all know that for the vast majority of trips, driving is going to be fastest. But does the RTA REALLY need to be reminding people of that for every single trip search? It's like saying, "Ride us, we're slower than driving!"

I ride transit despite it being slower for a lot of different reasons, but demonstrating for every trip search just how much slower it is just plain stupid in my opinion.

What on earth posessed the RTA to do that?

For example, just to see what it does, I searched from 500 W Madison to 1800 W Lawrence (Ogilvy to the Ravenswood stop on UP-North), leaving at 1:30pm (there's a 1:35 train).

Here's what it came up with:
17 minutes to drive (yeah, RIGHT - I used to live there and work near there, it NEVER took less than 20 minutes in a cab, even in the dead of night).
20 minutes to "drive to train" - yeah, I'm at the station's address and they say it's faster to drive to the train than walk in the front door. They're seriously screwing themselves if they don't provide estimates on time to park.
21 minutes to take the train. Okay, that's probably the most accurate time on their site.
Then it gives you some other "drive to train" and train options to take the "L" instead of the UP-North, ranging in time from 43 to 60 minutes.

Seriously, does the RTA even actually think about what they're doing?

[Attrill]

Here's the URL: http://www.goroo.com/......

For example, just to see what it does, I searched from 500 W Madison to 1800 W Lawrence (Ogilvy to the Ravenswood stop on UP-North), leaving at 1:30pm (there's a 1:35 train).

Here's what it came up with:
17 minutes to drive (yeah, RIGHT - I used to live there and work near there, it NEVER took less than 20 minutes in a cab, even in the dead of night).
20 minutes to "drive to train" - yeah, I'm at the station's address and they say it's faster to drive to the train than walk in the front door. They're seriously screwing themselves if they don't provide estimates on time to park.
21 minutes to take the train. Okay, that's probably the most accurate time on their site.


Seriously, does the RTA even actually think about what they're doing?

I just messed around with that site for a bit - and yeah - it is total crap. Apparently walking is not an option at all. On one trip it told me I would have to drive 75' to get to the Milwaukee Ave. bus.

Looking at the route you entered I think even 21 minutes to take Metra seems long, I take that train quite a bit and it takes about 10-15 minutes.

I compared to Google maps just to see if this is a difficult route to plan for some reason. Google maps gives a time estimate of 14 minutes by Metra and even provides a cost comparison:

$2.35 (vs. $4.13 driving!)

Nice! The RTA should just get out of the way and let the people at CTA who partnered with Google run everything for the whole system.

[10023]

The RTA should just get out of the way and let... Google run everything for the whole system.

:shrug: :yes:

[Abner]

Well, the bike map doesn't go up as a PDF, just as the HTML tiles. Printed paper copies shouldn't be too hard to come by. They're supposed to be at all Chase branches, City Hall, Active Transportation Alliance office, etc. The new edition (at the printer now) is sponsored by AT&T rather than Chase, so in June they'll probably be in AT&T stores.

The bike map is one of the best maps of the city. To add to Mr Downtown's list, they are, of course, also available at probably every bike store in the city. They're free, just make sure you get the Chicago map and not the (not-free) Chicagoland map.

[ardecila]

20 minutes to "drive to train" - yeah, I'm at the station's address and they say it's faster to drive to the train than walk in the front door. They're seriously screwing themselves if they don't provide estimates on time to park.

The formula may be better than you give it credit for. Consider that, if you are sitting in a car at 500 W. Madison, it will take you quite awhile to find a place to stash the car so you can walk over to Ogilvie. Depending on the time of day, the West Loop parking lots can fill up. Circling around, finding an entrance, getting a ticket, finding a space, leaving the car, and making your way to Ogilvie can easily eat up 20 minutes, especially for those who are not particularly city-savvy.

[ChicagoChicago]

Today was the first day I noticed this, but they have built a temporary (looks permanent) mechanical station just south of Lake/Wells on the West side of Wells basically where the old Randolph platform used to be. The guy I talked to said it was going to be used as a temporary tower while Tower 18 is rebuilt.

[denizen467]

^ They sure had been doing a lot of work there at night.

Hope it's gonna be an interesting tower once they've completed it. Chicago has a history of treating control towers as important architectural objects - well, at least at ORD. Maybe this will rub off on the CTA (yeah right).

[Mr Downtown]

Are you kidding? Have you seen the ugly things they've built over the tracks in the Kennedy and Dan Ryan?

[ChicagoChicago]

^^^^
It is sad to see the aesthetic appeal fly out the window in the name of budget constraints. The entire Loop L system has been used as a utility pole for shit in recent years.

[emathias]

The formula may be better than you give it credit for. Consider that, if you are sitting in a car at 500 W. Madison, it will take you quite awhile to find a place to stash the car so you can walk over to Ogilvie. Depending on the time of day, the West Loop parking lots can fill up. Circling around, finding an entrance, getting a ticket, finding a space, leaving the car, and making your way to Ogilvie can easily eat up 20 minutes, especially for those who are not particularly city-savvy.

No, you misunderstand. The 20 minutes is NOT for the driving portion alone, it's for the entire trip, including the transit portion.

[k1052]

I believe the new metal building on the rebuilt section of the old Wells/Randolph platform also houses the new signal plant so they can take the old stuff on the opposite side out of service (and hopefully remove it).

[Attrill]

Hopefully this (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-metra-naperville-21-may21,0,2362993.story) is a good sign of rising Metra ridership.


New parking lot going condo at Metra station
Developer selling spaces for $8,900 at Naperville stop

By Richard Wronski | Tribune reporter
May 21, 2009

Commuters spend years stuck on waiting lists to get a parking permit for some Metra station lots, but for those willing to shell out a premium to buy their own spot -- about $9,000 -- the wait in Naperville could be over in a few weeks.

A developer plans to build a condominium-style parking lot next to Metra's Route 59 station, the commuter rail line's most heavily used.

Each parking spot will cost $8,900 initially, but once half the 167 available spots are sold, the price jumps to $9,600. Taxes and assessments will be extra. The lot is expected to open by June 30.......

[denizen467]

Are you kidding? Have you seen the ugly things they've built over the tracks in the Kennedy and Dan Ryan?
Of course not a Jahn or Pei, or even Pappageorge or Loewenberg, or anything like that, but at least I thought I'd hope for something displaying a small tip of the hat to aestheticism. It's springtime; a guy can hope for things a bit even if, well, unrealistic.

[denizen467]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-legislature-construction-plamay21,0,6493170.story

$29 billion public works program: Illinois legislators back plan to start rebuilding program that would mean increased taxes and fees

By Ray Long, Rick Pearson and Ashley Rueff | Tribune reporters
May 21, 2009

SPRINGFIELD -- State lawmakers on Wednesday fast-tracked a $29 billion public works program that would start to rebuild crumbling roads and transit systems and pay for it with a slew of increased taxes and by legalizing video gambling across Illinois.

A new spirit of cooperation that's bloomed since the January ouster of indicted ex-Gov. Rod Blagojevich was a key factor cited as cheering state senators approved the bills by wide margins, predicting the House would soon sign off on the first statewide construction program for transportation and schools in a decade.

...

The capital bill includes $3 billion for new road projects. Chicago-area mass transit would receive $1.8 billion out of the $2 billion set aside for local bus and train service statewide. The breakdown: $900 million for the Chicago Transit Authority, $810 million for Metra commuter rail and $90 million for Pace suburban bus.

...

[the urban politician]

^ Wow, the CTA provides what, triple the rides of Metra? But it gets hardly more money.

[jpIllInoIs]

^ Metra has some big committements to CREATE that the CTA doesnt. We will have to see if METRA follows up and designates CREATE projects with some of this budgeted money. Good news is that the new ILL state transit budget does include $600 million directly to CREATE.

[the urban politician]

^ Nice catch. That's good to know

[Abner]

Does anyone know if that CREATE money includes funding for Grand Crossing? That's the most important project from a passenger's perspective.

[Mr Roboto]

Only 2 billion out of the 29 is for transit? Thats pretty weak.

[Chicago Shawn]

I am very happy that the state is finally legalizing video gambling machines. There are many bars that have these things in full operation and pay out under the table. This is a great idea, we need more ideas like this to raise revenue outside of hiking fees and taxes as usual.

[ardecila]

Only 2 billion out of the 29 is for transit? Thats pretty weak.

It's a statewide construction program that also includes school construction, university funding, and quite a bit of highway resurfacing work, bridge replacement, and additional lanes - but not the infamous "roads to nowhere". Also, Huffington Post puts the amount at $26 billion, not 29.

That huge amount, by the way, is only the total amount that will be spent, including all Federal money. In fact, IL is only contributing $12 billion out of the 26, to satisfy their requirement for matching funds in order to receive the other $14 billion in Federal dollars that are waiting.

Although I'm sure the figures vary from article to article, Huffington Post also reports that Illinois' contribution for roads is $2.8 billion and their contribution for transit is $2 billion. Looking at these figures, I'd say this is actually a budget heavily in favor of transit, considering the proportion of auto trips to transit trips in the state. These monetary amounts will probably double when Federal funding is factored in. And, since this bill creates dedicated sources of funding for capital construction, this ensures a relatively steady supply of money for construction in the near future.

-------------

As far as transit expansions go, I think CTA's line extensions are farthest along. Orange and Yellow, and soon Red, will begin their Environmental Impact Surveys and, once those are completed, Federal funding is imminent. I have not yet heard a cost estimate for Red, but Orange and Yellow combined is roughly $550 million. Given a state-Federal funding match of 40-60, IL will be responsible for 40% of this cost, or $220 million. This amount does not seem exorbitant, and I'm sure it can be worked into the budget.

Metra will also probably try to get their UP-W and UP-NW expansion plans funded. Despite the rhetoric about the STAR line, I'm pretty sure Metra realizes that this money is best spent on upgrading their 3rd- and 6th-busiest lines, which are running at full capacity right now. These two projects are also quite far along, also in their EIS phase and nearly ready for Federal funding.

EDIT - underreported the orange line cost, added $100 mil to the figures

[Abner]

$450 million for the Orange and Yellow extensions doesn't seem that bad at all, especially considering the Orange extension would be one piece of the Mid-City Transitway if that is ever built. The Red Line extension is obviously the most pressing by far, though.

Speaking of Metra, I missed this post (http://hydeparkprogress.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-to-do-if-tracks-make-tracks.html) at Hyde Park Progress from February on what could happen to the CN lakefront line if the railroad switches entirely to the EJ&E line. Basically, this would free up two tracks adjacent to those used by the Metra Electric and South Shore lines. The post doesn't really have any information about what could be on the table for this right of way and only does a little bit of speculation. Any ideas about what is realistic or likely here?

[denizen467]

...
especially considering the Orange extension would be one piece of the Mid-City Transitway if that is ever built. The Red Line extension is obviously the most pressing by far, though.
Is/was the Mid-City Transitway envisioned to ever go beyond Ford City (like heading east to Englewood or something) ?

[k1052]

It would be nice if some of that funding could find it's way into rebuilding State/Lake.