[Razqal]

Opening in October. Almost there!!! Everything is just awesome - train design, colors, station designs, tracks, bridges, tunnels, and landscapes.


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[MSPtoMKE]

Looks fantastic!

[J_Taylor]

Man thats purdy..
I hope if CAHSR gets build its 1/4 as cool.

[The Chemist]

That is the hotness! Infrastructure pornography! :D :D

Any stats (network length, number of stations, cost, etc) or maps?

[Jared]

All the stations are in the middle of nowhere?!?

[Razqal]

All the stations are in the middle of nowhere?!?

alot are built in what used to be farmland. only place where there's room to build big stations. they will be developing the areas around each station. new offices, commercial strips and condos.

[Razqal]

took this from someone who posted in SSC who took it from someone who posted in SSP :rolleyes: :


owner: Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation
network: one trunk line from Taipei to Kaohsiung (345 km)
track construction: 73% viaduct (252 km), 18% tunnel (62 km), 9% at grade (31 km)
number of stations: 8
Taipei, Banciao, Taoyuan, Hsinchu, Taichung, Chiayi, Tainan, Kaohsiung
construction period: 2000 -
construction cost: US$ 16 billion

rolling stock: Taiwan Shinkansen 700T
manufacturers: Kawasaki, Nippon Sharyo, Hitachi
specs: modified body of the shinkansen 700 with the core system of the 500
design speed: 350 km/h
max operating speed: 300 km/h
signaling system: European standard

revenue service:
operating hours: 06:00 - 24:00
2006 target ridership: 148,000 per day
frequency: 10 min
max. economy fare: NT$3.459/km (US$.09/km), Taipei - Kaohsiung = US$35
trains per day: 88 in each direction
non-stop express (Taipei - Kaohsiung): 17 in each direction, 80 min
regular (Taipei - Kaohsiung): 120 min


official website:
http://www.thsrc.com.tw/en/index.asp


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f355/chung68/THSRCROUTE.jpg

[Ronin]

Are they keeping the "Shinkansen" name as well? Boy, they sure do love Japan in Taiwan, don't they? hah

[sf_eddo]

Well, they sure aren't in love with China... ;)

This sounds great. I'm so jealous.

[veruca salt whiny voice] but I want a high speed rail too, daddy, and i want it now!!!! :tantrum: [\veruca salt whiny voice]

[anyiliang]

Are they keeping the "Shinkansen" name as well? Boy, they sure do love Japan in Taiwan, don't they? hah

Well, Japan did occupy Taiwan for over 50 years followed by the Chinese KMT. For the older generation, 60 years old and up, a lot of them still speak Japanese and prefer Japan over China because when the Chinese took over the island, the island had Martial law for around 30 years. Taiwan is very influence by Japan, America and China.

[Razqal]

why wouldnt they continue calling it shinkansen? it's a shinkansen train.

[Coyett]

why wouldnt they continue calling it shinkansen? it's a shinkansen train.

Who do you mean by they? I've never heard anyone locally refer to it as a shinkansen. Most media use the term generic term "high speed rail" or "T700" when refering to the trains.

[Jared]

Who do you mean by they? I've never heard anyone locally refer to it as a shinkansen. Most media use the term generic term "high speed rail" or "T700" when refering to the trains.

I think he was refering to the title of the thread.

[mSeattle]

Awesome, we can only dream in the US, if that. (sigh)

[DaveofCali]

Damnit, Asia is making the U.S. look more like a mockery as time goes on....

[Razqal]

i wonder why 2 of the stations are of the exact design. and where are the parking structures? i would think there'd be multi-level parking structures next to the stations.

[sogod]

Nice. The whole country looks like Japan to me ;)

Damnit, Asia is making the U.S. look more like a mockery as time goes on....

Bah, different options for different markets. High speed rail make sense in dense areas, but it doesn't really make sense in the US. Air travel makes more sense for us.

[SSLL]

Looks good. I didn't know there were still people who speak Japanese!

[Coyett]

Inflation likely to drive high-speed rail fare higher


CNA , TAIPEI
Saturday, Jul 15, 2006,Page 2

Advertising Train tickets for the nation's high speed rail line, which is expected to launch in October, could be raised by between NT$7 and NT$68 after an adjustment due to consumer price increases, the Ministry of Transportation and Communi-cations said yesterday.
The ministry said that the basic rate for every passenger-kilometer was originally set at NT$3.459 and that the Taiwan High-Speed Rail Corp (THSRC) has proposed a hike to NT$3.655.

The THSRC, which is building Taiwan's first high-speed rail system, will operate the system for 35 years before transferring it to the government under a build-operate-transfer (BOT) mechanism.

According to the new rate proposed by the THSRC, the price for a Taipei-Taoyuan train ticket will be raised to NT$135 (US$4.10) from NT$128, while the Taipei to Kaohsiung fare will be increased to NT$1,241 (US$37.76) from NT$1,173.

Deputy Minister of Transportation and Communications Tsai Duei (蔡堆) said that the BOT contract stipulates that the THSRC can adjust its basic rate in line with consumer price index increases.

The THSRC's new rate proposal is currently at the ministry's Bureau of High Speed Rail and has yet to be sent to the ministry, Tsai said, adding that the ministry would "agree to the increase in principle."

[Coyett]

more photos:

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9507/800x600/E102-190k+100-社頭鄉-700T型列車測試乙景-950628.jpg

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9507/800x600/E102-162k+000-台中市-700T型列車測試乙景-950614.jpg

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9507/800x600/E102-134k+650-苑裡鎮-700T型列車測試乙景-950623.jpg

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9507/800x600/S220-072k+200-竹北市-新竹站現況乙景-950624.jpg

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9507/800x600/D220-072K+989-竹北市-六家基地700T型列車測試現況-950630.jpg

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/E&Mwww/1/image/12.jpg

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/E&Mwww/1/image/11.jpg

[Nutterbug]

Awesome, we can only dream in the US, if that. (sigh)

Hopefully, more air travel scares will build up public demand and push for their development in America.

How many corridors in America can generate enough traffic to justify a line anyways? I don't imagine the Northwest is one of them.

[Razqal]

east coast and west coast primarily. boston-new york-florida and los angeles-san francisco. that's what i think.

nice pics!!

[n a m]

OMG... this is pimpness... awesome pics. Cant wait some day to ride it.

Reminds me of Transport Tycoon

[zaphod]

construction cost: US$ 16 billion

wow, only a bit more than 3.5 miles of shoddy union-built freeway tunnel in downtown boston :hell:

Awesome, we can only dream in the US, if that. (sigh)

*cry...*

maybe over time the Acela Northeast corridor could be upgraded to something like this. And it would be much easier to build because there wouldnt be lots of tunnels....

I wish amtrak had bought japanese instead of european technology for Acela. the shinkansen ones are are faster not to mention way cooler looking :D

[Deez]

So. Hot.

I love this one:
http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_43.jpg

A geological engineer's dream.

[edluva]

I wish amtrak had bought japanese instead of european technology for Acela. the shinkansen ones are are faster not to mention way cooler looking :D

Acela rolling stock is designed mostly by Bombardier, a Canadian company

[dougtheengineer]

A geological engineer's dream.
Yah but all those viaducts in such an active earthquake zone are a structural engineers nightmare :)

Amazing, I wish Canada would build one....could be feasible from Niagara-Toronto-Montreal

It could be at grade too, saving $$$

[zilfondel]

Well, by comparison to the NW corridor in the US... Portland to Vancouver, BC is 500 km, and the population of this 'Cascadia' region is at about 9 million right now. In other words, not high enough for a high speed rail system. However, our population is soaring, with Seattle, Portland and Vancouver each gaining between 1-2 million per year (metro pop), so perhaps in the future.

[edluva]

I think the most useful way to justify a corridor's ability to support HSR is the level of travel within a corridor, rather than the aggregation of an arbitrarily designated region's populations

[Fabb]

Since most of the line is viaducts and tunnels, the Maglev technology could have been a possibility. The cost of the line wouldn't have been dramatically higher.

[Damien]

There are plenty of cooridors actually.

Los Angeles-San Francisco isn't just the LA-San Francisco route. It's the network of
Reno
Sacramento
San Francisco
San Jose
Fresno
Bakersfield
Los Angeles
Ontario
Anaheim
San Diego
Las Vegas
Phoenix
Tuscon

Connected to the network of
Dallas
Houston
Austin
San Antonio
Oklahoma City
Tulsa
Baton Rouge
New Orleans
Little Rock

Connected to the network of
Chicago
Indianapolis
Cincinnati
St. Louis
Kansas City
Memphis
Milwaukee
Madison
Minneapolis

Connected to another network and another network and another network.

The goal of a nationwide high-speed rail system actually wouldn't be to create a nationwide system but instead several regional networks.

The thinking is that people would use the trains when traveling within 600 miles (4 hours or less) and use the airlines to cover most the trips beyond that.

[Jared]

Exactly.

Europe has HSR, but nobody takes the train from Lisbon to Moscow.

What happens is one "cluster" blends into the next, so they end up alll connected, even if the point isn't to take it from one end to the other.

[Fabb]

Europe has HSR, but nobody takes the train from Lisbon to Moscow.

No.
The european HSR is embryonic. It'll take another one or two decades before it becomes a reality.

[Damien]

Where are the politicians that are interested in putting America to work, and growing American industries when you need them?

Where's our FDR Public Works College Building Program!

Where's our Eisenhower Federal High-Speed Rail System!

Get the money from our ridiculously large military budget.

This has to be the worst group of public servants our country has ever had. It's like no one in Washington has any fricking clue how to create and help develop new and existing industries that will keep our economy growing in the 21st century. Then again, things might change with Democrats in Congress and a progressive leader in the White House.

Is it really that difficult to understand why people who think the federal government doesn't do any good don't know how to govern?

[Razqal]

Where are the politicians that are interested in putting America to work, and growing American industries when you need them?

Where's our FDR Public Works College Building Program!

Where's our Eisenhower Federal High-Speed Rail System!

Get the money from our ridiculously large military budget.

This has to be the worst group of public servants our country has ever had. It's like no one in Washington has any fricking clue how to create and help develop new and existing industries that will keep our economy growing in the 21st century. Then again, things might change with Democrats in Congress and a progressive leader in the White House.

Is it really that difficult to understand why people who think the federal government doesn't do any good don't know how to govern?


whooooaaa....i nominate that we create a political section in this skyscraper forum and a 'i hate republicans' thread and toss this post straight into it!!! :notacrook: :banana:

[pierre-laurent]

great pictures of shinkansen :tup: and...

JOHN KERRY FOR TAIWAN PRESIDENT...:haha:

[zilfondel]

Actually, from what I read the Acela was a modified TGV train that bombardier added weights, structural rigidity (no crumple zones in US trains!) and extra brakes to. But its a base French high speed train.

[zilfondel]

dupe

[Coyett]

Taoyuan Station Interior (underground platform)
http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9509/800x600/S215-042k+285-中壢市-桃園站一樓大廳現況乙景-950807.jpg

Hsinchu Station Exterior
http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9509/800x600/S220-072k+200-竹北市-新竹站東側現況乙景-950807.jpg

Tainan Station Exterior
http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9509/800x600/S290-313K+860-歸仁鄉-站區夜間戶外景觀乙景-950810.jpg

Banciao Station Interior (underground platform)
http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9509/800x600/S210-013K+120-板橋市-板橋站U2月台層現況-950811.jpg

http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/hsr-inet9509/800x600/E102-013K+120-板橋市-板橋站U3月台層700T型列車測試-950810.jpg

[Razqal]

WOOOOOOWWW....it's coming along!! so what's the exact launch date?

[denizen467]

construction cost: US$ 16 billion

wow, only a bit more than 3.5 miles of shoddy union-built freeway tunnel in downtown boston :hell:


^.

(I have nothing to add here... this speaks for itself.)

[Damien]

That's like pornography for transit lovers. :cheers:

Thank you taiwan_ren.

[northbay420]

Damnit, Asia is making the U.S. look more like a mockery as time goes on....

yeee. asia is developing hella quick. japan has had a higher standard of living then the u.s. for quite some time. as for the u.s., we are making a mockery of ourselves imo, or should i way THEY are making a mockery of THEMselves.

Nice. The whole country looks like Japan to me ;)

sho does, cept for the writing.

Bah, different options for different markets. High speed rail make sense in dense areas, but it doesn't really make sense in the US. Air travel makes more sense for us.

yes, and no. high speed rail is best to connect large cities/metropolitan areas about 300 or so miles apart. any farther and flying is just more efficient time (and $) wise. high speed rail is IDEAL for most of the coastal areas of the u.s. how many large cities are there along the east coast alone? flying, especially now, is stressful. with gas and oil prices on the way up, trains are simply the way of the future, overseas as well as here in the unites states.

[stanford]

hsinchu station is an absolute masterpiece.. kris yao correct?

[giallo]

Good god, the stations are amazing. I was hoping to go back to Taiwan for the October National Holiday and check out the Tainan and Kaohsiung stations, but can't afford it to do that and go home to Canada for christmas holiday.

[ul1]

looks awesome!

[excel]

Beautiful system.

[Coyett]

THSRC opening ceremony now scheduled for Dec. 7


AGENCIES, TOKYO AND TAIPEI
Saturday, Oct 28, 2006, Page 2

According to Kyodo News, Taiwan High-Speed Rail Corp (THSRC) has sent invitations to former Japanese prime minister Junichiro Koizumi and many other Japanese politicians and railway industry figures to attend the inauguration of the 345km railway which uses the Japan-built Shinkansen "bullet train" system.

In Taipei, THSRC spokesman Chiang Chin-shan (江金山) yesterday confirmed that the opening had been pushed back from Tuesday to Dec. 7, mainly because of considerations connected to the itineraries of invited dignitaries as well as it being an auspicious day according to the lunar almanac.

According to the Kyodo News, the THSRC management has informed Tadashi Ikeda, the Japanese representative in Taipei, of its decision with regard to the high-speed rail's opening as well as its invitations to Koizumi and other Japanese dignitaries.

The "bullet train," which began initial test running in August, has reached a top speed of 300kph during testing, Kyodo News said.

After the Dec. 7 ceremony, Kyodo News said, the high-speed railway is scheduled to formally begin operations in mid-December.


More info:

Taipei - Kaohsiung
Distance: 345km
Fare: NT$1490 (US$44)
Time: *90 minutes

Taipei - Taichung
Distance 165.7km
Fare: NT$700 (US$21)
Time: 45 minutes

*express

[elfabyanos]

Actually, from what I read the Acela was a modified TGV train that bombardier added weights, structural rigidity (no crumple zones in US trains!) and extra brakes to. But its a base French high speed train.

I think so. They had to be able to withstand a head-on collision with a triple header trillion tonne freight train - something the TGV's weren't designed to have to deal with. There were tinkers with the whole geometry of the train. Other differences - I believe Acela trains have two bogies per car whereas tgv has one shared between two cars at the ends of each car. The acela ones were designed for about 140mph max?

Somebody said earlier Japanese technology is quicker than European - not true. Both are currently contstructing lines for around 220mph operation (eventually), and have been more or less equals since the early 90s when japan finally caught up with France (though japan was ahead through the 60s and 70s).

Major bonus of japanese technology is it's lighter construction, which has spurred the french and german designers to follow suit.

This new line looks pretty damn good, go Taiwan!

[LostInTheZone]

Remember when America used to build things like this, and the rest of the world looked on in awe, and hired us to engineer their own infrastructure?

I don't, I've only been around for two decades.

The freakin London Underground was built largely with American engineering, at least in the beginning. It's really embarrasing. Good for Taiwan. Maybe now that Ted Stevens isn't heading the transportation committee...

[Razqal]

NEW PICS OF HSINCHU STATION!!! IT'S A BEAUT!!!! (got them from some person's flickr album. :P )


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[matguy7070]

Amazing... the USA can only dream about a system like this. Isn't sad... the richest country on the planet has Amtrak!

Makes you wonder!

[Razqal]

NEW PICS OF TSOYING STATION!!! AWESOME!!!


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[Razqal]

NEW PICS OF TAOYUAN STATION!!!


http://static.flickr.com/116/282100425_09ff5a1445.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/107/282100423_60eef4d382.jpg?v=0

[Razqal]

NEW PICS OF TAINAN STATION!!!

http://static.flickr.com/100/293856946_84cc8f9ee2.jpg?v=0

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http://static.flickr.com/110/293856961_a23f47646d.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/107/293856957_67cb557810.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/103/293856952_0c30f333c1.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/113/291025737_d6c3091561.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/101/291028667_fdecf28fcc.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/122/291024171_3d25f3d9e2.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/121/290763224_f90d11ea63.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/111/290765618_585798beef.jpg?v=0

[stanford]

哇..超美!

[Razqal]

哇..超美!

english, please.

[superchan7]

He said wow, super-pretty.

[Monetto]

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_11.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_14.jpg




I'm assuming that this will be developed as a gigantic TOD, judging by all of the intersecting avenues. Am I right? If yes, do you have any information regarding plans, proposals, etc?

[Riise]

nm

[Riise]

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_14.jpg



Which station will this be?

[ZZ-II]

wow, very modern

[LostInTheZone]

astounding.

[Razqal]

some more pics of taichung station. i couldn't post the pics from this dude's flickr album. so here's the link:


http://flickr.com/photos/jdhuang/sets/72157594389593621/with/304872305/

[Razqal]

some more photos of hsinchu station:


http://static.flickr.com/120/290553231_2383c44718.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/107/290548942_85499962f0.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/114/290551053_2f7d646612.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/119/305316814_aa5d0430e0.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/104/305315599_530957f2a8.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/118/305313960_f34c8d3dfd.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/105/305313935_68831a9f77.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/111/305313901_16f6882343.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/118/305309500_f0dab0bcb0.jpg?v=0


http://static.flickr.com/115/304746231_d67d869c79.jpg?v=0

[Coyett]

Taiwan's high speed rail system gets government green light
The Associated Press: December 24, 2006

http://www.appledaily.com.tw/060328/twapple/640pix/20061225/LN01/LN01_002.jpg




TAIPEI, Taiwan: Taiwan's high speed rail system government has passed a final inspection and will be allowed to operate by Jan. 1, a senior official said Monday.

Vice-Minister of Transportation and Communications Ho Nuan-hsuan said a government panel determined Sunday that the long-delayed system had met all the ministry's safety requirements.

"The system will get the final certificate within one week," he said.

In a statement Sunday the ministry said it had also been approved by the independent verification and validation firm Lloyd's Register and by three Japanese experts invited by the ministry's Bureau of High Speed Rail.

The system can launch service once it publishes ticket prices, the statement said.

The NT$480 billion (US$ 15 billion; €11.4 billion) high-speed link will shorten the rail journey between the capital Taipei and the southern city of Kaohsiung to 90 minutes from the present four hours.

Construction on the project began in 2000 with an original launch date of October 2005. But a delay in the completion of its core electrical systems pushed back the launch date to the end of October this year.

Failure to obtain a safety report from Lloyd's Register further postponed the service's launch. The safety report was obtained Nov. 20.

[edluva]

Can't wait til they open. I must say I generally prefer the design of the european trains/stations to the japanese/taiwanese - even the new ones pictured in this thread. They're just more sleek. It seems to me the asian designs are more practical and more essential while being at the same time, more bland and less dramatic. Kind of like Lexus vs BMW. Although some of the shinkansen trains are pretty awesome, others can be downright goofy. And while some of these taiwanese stations look nice from certain angles, the architect manages to bungle it up elsewhere. The Tainan station is prob the most well executed of the bunch.


THSR
http://www.hsr.gov.tw/icons/E&Mwww/1/image/11.jpg




TGV
http://www.hochgeschwindigkeitszuege.com/galerie/fr/fr_tgv_duplex_marseille08_g.jpg
http://www.treni-dintorni.com/trenidintorni/images/expo05/tgv%201cl.jpg
http://www.treni-dintorni.com/trenidintorni/images/expo05/tgv%202cl.jpg
http://www.andreweland.org/2005/4/24/photos/interior
http://en.structurae.de/files/photos/2300/picture_463.jpg

[ichigo]

it's a matter of preference... to me European trains are down right ugly. I think Shinkansen has some of the best trains in the world. And it's going to be even better when JR Maglev comes out to become fastest train in the world.

[tuy]

So did service start on Jan 1st? It is already the 3rd in Taiwan.

[Coyett]

Service begins on Friday, January 5th. The operator, THSRC, is running a promotion with half price fares for the first ten days (Taipei-Kaohsiung US$23).

[edluva]

it's a matter of preference... to me European trains are down right ugly. I think Shinkansen has some of the best trains in the world. And it's going to be even better when JR Maglev comes out to become fastest train in the world.

the interiors of the shinkansen trains look like they were designed in 1986 by mcdonnell douglas. In fact, they look more like old airplanes than trains. I have a hard time believeing that the 700t series is new by looking at these pictures. Look at the upholstery for example. so functional yet so uninspiring. That's the overall theme to asian design - functional and pragmatic. You're right, preference is subjective, but for what it's worth, i tend to think of japanese design (automotive/train) as being relatively bland, amorphous, and uninventive - overall, too conservative. For example, Lexus/Acura vs BMW/Audi. Keep in mind I'm not discussing technology here.

and you can tell with some of these taiwanese stations that the architects were trying to capture the elegance of spaces like kansai, HK airport, and madrid barajas with the sloped or undulating roofs supported by delicately branched columns. With the taiwanese structures, however, the branched columns end up looking fussy, cluttered, and uncoordinated and the buildings thematically inconsistent. In the end, they're more like Kansai wannabes - superficially, they have the major elements of other modern terminals down (exposed branching columns, light skin-roofs, glass curtainwalls, etc) but lacking the details and the purity that make modern structures like Kansai or Lyon beautiful. And let me add that the exterior of Tsoying station is horrid and typifies Taiwanese taste in architecture. If they can't get IM Pei or Tadao Ando to do their work, Asians should just hire Western architects for all their major commissions because it seems like all the really good looking structures in asia are designed by europeans or americans (pei is american depending on how you measure him), and the japanese-design buildings (and cars) that tend to be clean, simple, but boring, and the chinese design absolute nightmares. Just my rant.

[Coyett]

and you can tell with some of these taiwanese stations that the architects were trying to capture the elegance of spaces like kansai, HK airport, and madrid barajas with the sloped or undulating roofs supported by delicately branched columns. With the taiwanese structures, however, the branched columns end up looking fussy, cluttered, and uncoordinated and the buildings thematically inconsistent. In the end, they're more like Kansai wannabes - superficially, they have the major elements of other modern terminals down (exposed branching columns, light skin-roofs, glass curtainwalls, etc) but lacking the details and the purity that make modern structures like Kansai or Lyon beautiful. And let me add that the exterior of Tsoying station is horrid and typifies Taiwanese taste in architecture. If they can't get IM Pei or Tadao Ando to do their work, Asians should just hire Western architects for all their major commissions because it seems like all the really good looking structures in asia are designed by europeans or americans.

I think you're overstating the differences in design expertise. In any case, I'd be interested in your critique of Taoyuan Station (pictured below).

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/en/travel/img_kvtaoyuan.jpg

[Razqal]

the taiwan shinkansen trains definitely look way nicer and sleeker than the european tgv, which just looks like a more rounded, nose-coned commuter train to me like the u.s.'s amtrak acela train. but the tgv's interior definitely looks way nicer than the shinkansen's interiors. that pic of the european train station looks super nice. but i think some of the taiwan stations are just as nice like hsinchu. western architecture can also be boring you know. many western buildings are just glass boxes. it might look clean, but still boring. and does asian architecture always have to mimic western architecture? they should develop their own identity. tsoying might not look "clean" according to your western preferences, but just because it's infused with local taiwanese/asian architectural aesthetics doesnt make it bad architecture. just different. as long as it's not covered in bathroom tiles, it's all good in my book. :D

[edluva]

I understand that modernism can be boring, but even the most boring modernism tends to demonstrate some amount of taste or refinement, or at least restraint, in western architecture. By contrast, you get crap like Taipei101, Chuntex, and some of these rail stations in Chinese architecture. The best of these Taiwanese rail stations are still attempts at imitating modernism stylistically without understanding what makes good modernism good, or without understanding modernism in general. And Asian design motifs can be translated into modern alliterations without being so literal as in those skyscrapers - I.M. Pei has tastefully mated Chinese vernacular or theme with modernism for decades. On the contrary, the ubiquitous pagoda motif, the curvilinear roof, or the chinese gold coin on Taipei101 is very literal, and also very ugly. The same can be said of modernist architecture - good modernism doesn't attempt to archive mutually incompatible modernist motifs already seen elsewhere into a single building. That's imitation of modernism without actually practicing it. Taiwanese architects are still mimicking western architects and it shows. While taiwan is technologically advanced, it's still culturally lagging. Taiwanese architecture is one example of this - even Kris Yao's.

some food for thought (not technically modernist, but still modern)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a5/Barajas_interior7.jpg/300px-Barajas_interior7.jpg

http://www.protocolo.com/web_files/noticias/boletin/290605/nuevaterminal3.jpg

http://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/madrid-barajas/images/2-Madrid-barajas-airport.jpg

http://www.albertoconcejal.com/imgs/imgs_t4/DSC_3205.JPG

http://www.albertoconcejal.com/imgs/imgs_t4/DSC_3082.JPG

http://fan.aist-nara.ac.jp/~fawnizu/picture/kansaikuko.jpg

http://www.athenaeum.ch/Lyon/Calatrava/Calatrava_Lyon_DSCN0295.jpg

http://www.arquitectura.com/arquitectura/inter/perfiles/calatrava/bb.jpg

http://www.traveljournals.net/pictures/l/6/69472-calatrava-train-station-exterior-lisbon-portugal.jpg

http://community.iexplore.com/photos/journal_photos/lis-calatrava.gif

http://www.athenaeum.ch/Lyon/Calatrava/Calatrava_Lyon_DSCN0326.jpg

http://www.athenaeum.ch/Lyon/Calatrava/Calatrava_Lyon_DSCN0353.jpg

http://www.athenaeum.ch/Lyon/Calatrava/Calatrava_Lyon_DSCN0291.jpg

[eduardo88]

My favorite trains have to be ICE...perhaps exterior design doesnt looks as good as shinkansen's but inside they're a way better...the pictures below arent that great tho, looks way better in person


http://www.fraport.de/cms/media/27/27923.fernbhf_2_ice_cde12.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Inside_view_ICE_train.jpg/450px-Inside_view_ICE_train.jpg

http://k53.pbase.com/g3/00/65700/2/54017724.IMG_4262.jpg

Also train stations in germany are amazing..particularly the new big ones


http://joerg-hempel.com/albums/A486/A_486_228.jpg

http://www.travelnotes.de/planes/germany/pfraba01.jpg

http://www.db.de/site/shared/de/bilder/grafiken/modelle/berlin__hauptbahnhof__simulation__nacht,type=large.jpg

[tuy]

The two completed terminal pictures above are from the Frankfurt Airport Fernbhf.

[rxkeenan]

First reviewd this post with the great progress pictures of THSR in June...now with the grand opening cannot open any of the pictures !?! Can you possibly repost? It would be greatly appreciated!

[rxkeenan]

Razqal:


First reviewd this post with the great progress pictures of THSR in June...now with the grand opening cannot open any of the pictures !?! Can you possibly repost with pix? It would be greatly appreciated!

RxK


Opening in October. Almost there!!! Everything is just awesome - train design, colors, station designs, tracks, bridges, tunnels, and landscapes.


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/download/wp_a_08.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/download/wp_a_01.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_49.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_50.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_51.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_52.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_53.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_54.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_55.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_56.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_57.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_58.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_59.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_60.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_61.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_62.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_63.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_64.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_65.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_48.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_01.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/download/wp_a_02.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/download/wp_a_04.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/download/wp_a_05.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_05.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_06.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_07.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_02.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_03.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_08.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_09.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_10.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_11.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_12.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_13.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_14.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_15.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_16.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_17.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_18.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_19.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_25.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_29.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_30.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_31.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_32.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_33.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_34.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_35.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_36.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_37.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_38.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_39.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_40.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_41.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_43.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_45.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/gallery/photo/thsrc_g06_47.jpg


http://www.thsrc.com.tw/images/download/wp_b_09.jpg

[Razqal]

sorry, i dont think i can repost. the source photos arent there.

and i think we'd all appreciate it if you all can stick to the topic and quit posting other pics of other stations from other countries to compare with the thsr stations. you can start other threads to talk about those other stations if you want. this is about thsr. i think the thsr stations are great the way they are - they're way better than any north american train station i've ever been to so i have no complaints.

[edluva]

^really? better than grand central station NY?

no really though as much as I dislike these stations, they beat the hell out of North American HSR stations. Because we have none.

[Razqal]

not just hsr stations, but any train station in north america in general. and ny's grand central station is a different category. you can not even compare some of europe's modern hsr stations with grand central because it's a different class altogether.

[Coyett]

Passengers departing on train #415 should proceed to track 2 for boarding.....

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/inc/en/images/logo.gif

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f355/chung68/THSRCROUTE.jpg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b381/Chiayiboy/showimg_PQt7mWGTxlit.jpg

Taipei Banciao Station

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f355/chung68/banciaostation.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f355/chung68/ban-in.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_31.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_51.jpg

Taoyuan Station, 14 minutes

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_02.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_35.jpg

Hsinchu Station, 28 minutes

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_06.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_36.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_55.jpg

Taichung Station, 55 minutes

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_09.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_43.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_45.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_59.jpg

Chiayi Station, 77 minutes

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_13.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_46.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_63.jpg

Tainan Station, 103 minutes

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_16.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_47.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_64.jpg

http://www.thsrc.com.tw/download/tw/photo/thsrc_g06_65.jpg

Kaohsiung Zuoying Station, 120 minutes

http://static.flickr.com/99/298646695_916d8ba7b1.jpg?v=0

http://pwse.kcg.gov.tw/images/09.jpg

Thank you! Enjoy your stay in Kaohsiung.

[slide_rule]

If they can't get IM Pei or Tadao Ando to do their work, Asians should just hire Western architects for all their major commissions because it seems like all the really good looking structures in asia are designed by europeans or americans (pei is american depending on how you measure him), and the japanese-design buildings (and cars) that tend to be clean, simple, but boring, and the chinese design absolute nightmares. Just my rant.

ok. realize that the questionable design has less to do with some imagined deficiency in local design talent than with the whims of the patrons, and more importantly, the budget. ALL upstart locales seek to reproduce the supposed superiority of the established places. the old-money looked derisively at the newcomers, and the newcomers were often driven by feelings of inferiority. believing in the inherent 'good taste' of foreign architects both exacerbates the feelings of inferiority, and stunts the development of local talent and style.

you've used barajas, kansai, and some of the calatrava designs to illustrate your point. they are more eye-catching than the taiwanese rail stations. unfortunately, they're also much more expensive! rogers, calatrava, piano etc. are brands. because they're big and famous, they'll only accept big money commissions, and in return their buildings can afford to look a certain way. by contrast, most no-name architects (e.g. the local ones) produce anything they can get. thus they're often associated with the boring, cost-conscious buildings. but architecture is like hollywood. it's not a meritocracy, and many talented architects are toiling away as CAD monkeys.

i'm surprised you used calatrava as an example. although his buildings are technically competent, a lot of the structure (and cost) is spent on frivolous parabolas and fins.

I understand that modernism can be boring, but even the most boring modernism tends to demonstrate some amount of taste or refinement, or at least restraint, in western architecture. By contrast, you get crap like Taipei101, Chuntex, and some of these rail stations in Chinese architecture. The best of these Taiwanese rail stations are still attempts at imitating modernism stylistically without understanding what makes good modernism good, or without understanding modernism in general. And Asian design motifs can be translated into modern alliterations without being so literal as in those skyscrapers - I.M. Pei has tastefully mated Chinese vernacular or theme with modernism for decades. On the contrary, the ubiquitous pagoda motif, the curvilinear roof, or the chinese gold coin on Taipei101 is very literal, and also very ugly. The same can be said of modernist architecture - good modernism doesn't attempt to archive mutually incompatible modernist motifs already seen elsewhere into a single building. That's imitation of modernism without actually practicing it. Taiwanese architects are still mimicking western architects and it shows. While taiwan is technologically advanced, it's still culturally lagging. Taiwanese architecture is one example of this - even Kris Yao's.

some food for thought (not technically modernist, but still modern)

wow, where do i begin? it's absurd to compare c.y. lee's kitschy chinese/taiwanese/confucian motifs with the best of modernism. the tuntex and taipei 101 should be compared to the various po-mo skyscrapers of 1980s/1990s philip johnson and michael graves. they're all the same. 'cept c.y. lee uses pagodas and gold coin motifs instead of the equally tacky chippendale tops and oversized swans.

i'm still amazed at how you could use some anonymous taiwanese rail stations as being emblematic of a lack of architectural talent, yet western architecture by default has taste, refinement, or at the very least, restraint?
talk about stereotyping. once again, realize that these train stations have limited budgets. don't compare them to signature architectural works by starchitects. the local caltrans stations aren't eye-catching either. it's not the architects' fault. it's because of limited budgets.

while we're on the subject of east vs. west, don't assume that big-budget architecture in the west will inherently be good. like i said earlier, it's mostly dependent on taste and budget. thus you see gehry's scribble (libeskind with a french curve), libeskind (gehry with a straight edge), and zaha hadid (bowling ball being smashed), being marketed like hilary duff and designing expensive, showy, and ultimately completely impractical buildings.

btw, i have no affiliation with taiwan or taiwanese architects.

[Coyett]

silde_rule, excellent reply. The funniest aspect of edluva's post is that he is completely unaware that UK architects RMJM designed Taoyuan station. ;)

[edluva]

I have to disagree slide rule. Firstly, I never meant to turn this into a discussion about whether pomo > modernism. That was never the case to begin with. I used cy lee as an example of how even with the much disparaged pomo, there can exist good taste and there can exist bad taste. And in disagreement, I feel that even Graves' worst is better than CY Lee's monstrosities.

And for the rest of your reply, while it is true that starchitecture tends to be costly, I can also name a few critically acclaimed architects whose commissions are almost exclusively low-budget government projects. On the flip side to your assertion, it's equally true that cheap doesn't = ugly either. I just happened to use some expensive examples. And while we're on Kansai and Chek Lap Kok (not too flashy btw), tell me why public projects like non-Taiwanese airport terminals are allowed to attract star designers while equally public infrastructure like, oh, Taiwanese HSR stations cant, becuase that's basically what your suggesting. Is there an inherent difference or does Portugal, France, and HK just have ridiculously deep pockets for all public infrastructure? Basically what I'm asking is does good taste really always follow money?

The reason I'm attacking some of these HSR stations is that after having lived in Kaohsiung and Taipei for months at a time, I have noticed a dearth of "tasteful" architecture in general, both public and private - mind you exhorbitantly pricey, wasteful, ugly architecture being very commonplace. And I'm with you in having little positive to say about most starchitects both because of their impracticality and their flashiness (and especialy about what it says about the current state of architcture in general), but at least to me it's evident that hadid and liebeskind understand how to appear original, even if starchitect-hating conspiracy theorists are certain they're ripping-off someone else somewhere.

Again, taste is pretty subjecive, but regarding CY Lee and even Kris Yao, the former just creates horrid buildings while the latter is just an imitator. If Gehry copies himself over and over again (and I despise Gehry) and even if he's a horribly wasteful and egotistical architect, he's still got sculptural and artistic merit, and it's still unmistakably Gehry - he's not imitating an architectural movement known for its whimsical titanium-clad undulating steel framwork. The same goes for Hadid and Calatravas. If anything, their biggest sin is treating architecture as art, and even I'll admit, pretty decent looking art at that. Chinese architecture, if it's not banally unoriginal to the point of being Kris Yao, is Chinese pomo from hell. It's tacky, gaudy, extremely literal, and despite your assertion, in many cases extremely expensive. And Kris Yao (the "posterchild" of Taiwanese architectural talent), well he's like that knock-off LV purse. Embarrasingly amateurish and unoriginal. That's my beef with him. When they say along the lines of "rising Taiwanese star" I tend to believe them. It's really that bad.

But in the end, it works. I'm just complaining about aesthetics here. THSR like the JR system is engineered well, and hopefully well constructed too. And despite my gripes I'd be glad to have this system in CA warts and all. I'm just annoyed at what I perceive as Taiwan's defecit in the humanities - I actually think it's a big reason behind all their current social morass, but I digress.

Taiwan ren, taoyuan is forgivable too. I don't believe I had anything negative to say about taoyuan did I? But I guarantee you that Tsoying is taiwan designed. And I was sure Hsinchu was as well. I can recognize taiwanese taste a mile away - maybe because I *am* taiwanese.

[Razqal]

nice articulate response, slide_rule. you KO'd edluva. :haha:

Taiwan ren, taoyuan is forgivable too. I don't believe I had anything negative to say about taoyuan did I? But I guarantee you that Tsoying is taiwan designed. And I was sure Hsinchu was as well.

edluva, your previous lengthy diatribe generally lambasted all of THSR's station designs. you didnt specify that taoyuan station was supposed to be the "exception". and i actually think taoyuan station is the most boring design of all the THSR stations. i actually thought a taiwanese local architect designed taoyuan station since it's relatively easy to copy a boring glass box design that is so pervasive in western architecture. :P

but yes, i think most of us agree with your perception of local taiwanese architecture. but just face facts - taiwanese are just not good at - or care enough about - good quality architecture. their priorities are in hi-tech and making money. sure, i wish all these stations can be a calatrava design. but as slide_rule mentioned, that would be extremely expensive. and i'm sure you can agree with me that these stations are already way better compared to the general poor nature of taiwanese buildings/public works. so just be grateful for that. ;)

[edluva]

nice articulate response, slide_rule. you KO'd edluva. :haha:



edluva, your previous lengthy diatribe generally lambasted all of THSR's station designs. you didnt specify that taoyuan station was supposed to be the "exception". and i actually think taoyuan station is the most boring design of all the THSR stations. i actually thought a taiwanese local architect designed taoyuan station since it's relatively easy to copy a boring glass box design that is so pervasive in western architecture. :P

but yes, i think most of us agree with your perception of local taiwanese architecture. but just face facts - taiwanese are just not good at - or care enough about - good quality architecture. their priorities are in hi-tech and making money. sure, i wish all these stations can be a calatrava design. but as slide_rule mentioned, that would be extremely expensive. and i'm sure you can agree with me that these stations are already way better compared to the general poor nature of taiwanese buildings/public works. so just be grateful for that. ;)



it's good to know people can still play online tag-team and still agree with the loser's argument in the end ;). btw, I never said anything good or bad about taoyuan, I'm with you in that it's forgiveably bland - that's the best thing about some of these stations. I'm just offended by the fact that something like tsoying could be accepted anywhere in the bidding process. I understand architecture isn't taiwan's forte (and culture in general..), but it's downright frustrating what kinds of architects a "modern", "educated" country like taiwan chooses to design its most expensive projects. And this is the public sector, mind you. Remember what I said about expensive projects being just as ugly? It's not about the price tag at all - affordability has little to do with horrid taste, and Taiwan's in no shortage of horrid looking architecture, expensive as well as cheap. It's almost unbelievable how much expensive crap gets built there. The fact that these stations are an improvement over the mean doesn't help - the best asian architecture tends to be the least offensive. Look at CKS's new terminal, for example, I doubt any decent architect's commission would be so prohibitive such that they only had one option. Screw calatrava, a glass cube would be better looking. But really, what's wrong with taiwan is that it's got the "new money" phenomenon. The people in power are old-school. I think you know what I'm talking about.

[slide_rule]

almost unbelievable how much expensive crap gets built there
i've been to taiwan. its built environment is generally lacking. but you're blaming the wrong things. taiwan (and most of the other east asian places) was very poor until recently. taiwan also underwent a rapid economic upswing. as such, demand outstripped supply, and maximizing usable area and cost-cutting had to be accepted. then there's also the corruption/collusion and undue influence of the construction industry. mind you, none of this has to do with the quality of local architects. and architects in every other place on earth have to compromise quality for the sake of economics.

people like kris yao and c.y. lee are only the best known and most prolific architects. they're not the best. similarly, gehry and libeskind (both of whom are naturalized americans) shouldn't be seen as emblematic of american architecture. nepotism and bad taste amongst the patrons isn't limited to taiwan.

the best asian architecture tends to be the least offensive. Look at CKS's new terminal, for example

terminal 2 in taipei was built to a cost, nothing more.

if you really want to see "good" architecture by architects in taiwan and the rest of asia, there are several industry periodicals. libraries and most decent bookstores in taiwan should have them. they're usually small to mid-size projects, but they do illustrate the talent available.

if you're including japan in the list of supposedly aesthetically challenged places, then read GA and japan architect. they're more widely available in north america, and many japanese architects have achieved international acclaim. kisho kurokawa's kuala lumpur airport is flat out beautiful.

i'm amazed at how you could see the built environment of taiwan as emblematic of some pathological cultural flaw. realize that architects do not hold much influence over what is built. high returns on investment drive the construction biz.

with your logic, the ugliness of LAX, the endless pink stucco of suburban sprawl, and the high-budget frivolity of the disney hall and eric owen moss' shards should be indicative of LA's inherently flawed architects. you give LA a pass, but taiwan and the rest of asia are aesthetically challenged? your statements make no sense.

[Coyett]

I absolutely agree that the problem with the built environment stems from the excessive cost-cutting of local developers and the ideological nepotism of past governments. The fact that many government buildings are representative of Chinese culture is no accident - it was government policy. Buildings such as the Palace Museum, Taipei Station, KMT Headquarters, and Taipei City Hall were designed to support the political agenda of imposing a Chinese identity. Quality played no part in the decision process of awarding design contracts. The most important consideration was your relationship with government officials.

Things are slowly changing - but you have to remember that prior to the election of the current central government, foreign architects rarely worked in Taiwan. There was very little dialogue between local and international architects, no technology exchange in the building industry, and a building culture that viewed innovation as a threat. Architecture was thought of as a technical skill. Practioners were considered labor, merely an extension of the uneducated "tradesman" that poured the concrete.

EDIT: THSR has extended the discount period for half-price tickets til the end of the month.

A shot from the platform in Tainan
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f355/chung68/tainantrip-1.jpg

[vizvalleykid]

Oh i see that unlike the Shinaksen, there are no saftey barriers at platforms, I think they should be built soon because jumping in front of Shinkansen is a popular suicide method, the reason why the safety barriers went up. In Taiwan, are the trains delayed often or are they perfectly on time?

[edluva]

i've been to taiwan. its built environment is generally lacking. but you're blaming the wrong things. taiwan (and most of the other east asian places) was very poor until recently. taiwan also underwent a rapid economic upswing. as such, demand outstripped supply, and maximizing usable area and cost-cutting had to be accepted. then there's also the corruption/collusion and undue influence of the construction industry. mind you, none of this has to do with the quality of local architects. and architects in every other place on earth have to compromise quality for the sake of economics.

people like kris yao and c.y. lee are only the best known and most prolific architects. they're not the best. similarly, gehry and libeskind (both of whom are naturalized americans) shouldn't be seen as emblematic of american architecture. nepotism and bad taste amongst the patrons isn't limited to taiwan.



terminal 2 in taipei was built to a cost, nothing more.

if you really want to see "good" architecture by architects in taiwan and the rest of asia, there are several industry periodicals. libraries and most decent bookstores in taiwan should have them. they're usually small to mid-size projects, but they do illustrate the talent available.

if you're including japan in the list of supposedly aesthetically challenged places, then read GA and japan architect. they're more widely available in north america, and many japanese architects have achieved international acclaim. kisho kurokawa's kuala lumpur airport is flat out beautiful.

i'm amazed at how you could see the built environment of taiwan as emblematic of some pathological cultural flaw. realize that architects do not hold much influence over what is built. high returns on investment drive the construction biz.

with your logic, the ugliness of LAX, the endless pink stucco of suburban sprawl, and the high-budget frivolity of the disney hall and eric owen moss' shards should be indicative of LA's inherently flawed architects. you give LA a pass, but taiwan and the rest of asia are aesthetically challenged? your statements make no sense.


I'll agree with most of what you said, especially the point about being very poor until recently (hence my "new money" analogy) but I still feel that there is an inherent cultural insensitivity to public arts/architecture which leads to the reliable and ubiquitous commissioning of horrid designs one would almost never find in a city such as LA. Buildings at LAX are as modernist as they come - I don't see anything offensive about modernist boxes, bland as they may be. Public architecture actually tends to be pretty decent here, despite the tacky private architecture one finds hidden amongst the decent stuff.

And while gehry, mayne, and liebeskind aren't necessarily emblematic as architects, I'll admit that they have an artistic or aesthetic sensibility that Kris Yao and CY Lee are wont to have. And I've said this quite a few times already - cheap architecture need not equal horrid chinese pomo, but in Taiwan it almost always does. (But so does expensive architecture in Taiwan)

My point is that the architects that a people commission to design their largest most prolific projects serve as a litmus of the prevailing tastes and values in their society, at least in relatively democratic free-market societies such as Taiwan and S. Korea, and that should be true regardless of cost. Low budget commissions stateside are not necessarily uglier than high budget commissions, as most architect fees are not that prohibitive in most cases. There are dozens of decent architects in the US who pursue publically mandated lowest-bid projects exclusively. It has nothing to do with price.

As a Taiwanese-American born to immigrant parents, I've always been able to view both western and Chinese cultures simultaneously as a native, leading me to feel that at least with Chinese culture, there is a relatively condescending view of pursuing an education or career in the arts/humanities that doesn't exist as strongly in Western society - a view which favors "practical" endeavors such as business or medicine. Think about the education system in Asian countries and how unholistic and mechanical their approaches to secondary and post-secondary education are relative to the US and EU. Compare the allocations, however modest, the US's public art foundations get to those in Taiwan, or to philanthropy, or to schools of art. I don't think my assessment of Taiwanese architecture is too far-fetched considering all these things. I attribute to this, Taiwan's ability to produce such a technologically advanced society without an equally strong cultural component. These values are even brought to the US - I'm quite sure a tally of the types of educational and career path's Asian American's go on to pursue would confirm this.

Japan is more of a mixed bag, much more conscientous of design than Taiwan, but there's still a relative lack of emphasis on public architecture or industrial design you'll find in Western Europe or the US. Public architecture tends to stress efficiency/functionality at the cost of aesthetics. Most of the interesting stuff is private, and pretty rare, but you'll definitely find fewer regional pomo monstrosities than in Taiwan.

anyways, back to the THSR topic...

[slide_rule]

inherent cultural insensitivity to public arts/architecture which leads to the reliable and ubiquitous commissioning of horrid designs one would almost never find in a city such as LA
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright. 2-storey mini-malls with oversized signs and on-street parking are a symbol of LA's inherent good design sense? endlessly sprawling, car-dependent burbs filled with pink stucco are good? elevating yet another CATIA inspired disney hall is good? this is your subjective opinion. no one's going to change it. but others won't agree with you.

it's interesting you mention the elevation of more pragmatic subjects over artistic pursuits by asian parents. i don't doubt it. a near-history of poverty WILL put the emphasis on more financially rewarding pursuits. but from my working experience with architects of various ethnicities both in america and in asia, i see NO DIFFERENCE based on ethnicity and location. architecture may not be a glamorous profession, but good architects still do their job well. as i stated earlier, many good architects are overlooked. many of these architects may come from ethnicities which are unfairly stereotyped as lacking in aesthetic talent.

your ideas show some form of inferiority complex, and verge upon the racist. with your logic, you could assert that some ethnicities would inherently be better teachers, or doctors, or gangsters, etc.

please, don't make excuses for gehry or libeskind. their 'artistic' talent is driven more by their patrons' largesse, savvy marketing, and ultimately the gullible general public who often are wrapped up in their celeb status yet cannot discern the difference between shock value and architecture. prior to being discovered, gehry worked on low budget, boxy, utilitarian buildings like that mall in santa monica. no one accused him of being an artistic genius back then. as for libeskind, he's just gehry with a ruler.

i'm not a fan of either c.y. lee nor cris yao. but get it straight. these 2 aren't the BEST of what taiwan, or any other place can offer. read a periodical highlighting good, not famous, architects and you'll see.

LAX is as modernist as say, taoyuan. LAX has a funky googie theme building. but taoyuan actually works, whereas LAX is one step away from hosting farm animals. they're both (mostly) utilitarian.

i'm surprised you're lukewarm towards japanese architecture. modernists tend to gravitate towards japan, as japanese architecture generally does not contain the historicist references (some blueblood in tweed), nor as much of the media-driven avant-garde (gehry in all-black) details.

[anyiliang]

Oh i see that unlike the Shinaksen, there are no saftey barriers at platforms, I think they should be built soon because jumping in front of Shinkansen is a popular suicide method, the reason why the safety barriers went up. In Taiwan, are the trains delayed often or are they perfectly on time?


So far the trains are on time. I have tickets to go from Taichung to Banchiao and back. So I will let you know how it was.

[edluva]

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright. 2-storey mini-malls with oversized signs and on-street parking are a symbol of LA's inherent good design sense? endlessly sprawling, car-dependent burbs filled with pink stucco are good? elevating yet another CATIA inspired disney hall is good? this is your subjective opinion. no one's going to change it. but others won't agree with you.

it's interesting you mention the elevation of more pragmatic subjects over artistic pursuits by asian parents. i don't doubt it. a near-history of poverty WILL put the emphasis on more financially rewarding pursuits. but from my working experience with architects of various ethnicities both in america and in asia, i see NO DIFFERENCE based on ethnicity and location. architecture may not be a glamorous profession, but good architects still do their job well. as i stated earlier, many good architects are overlooked. many of these architects may come from ethnicities which are unfairly stereotyped as lacking in aesthetic talent.

your ideas show some form of inferiority complex, and verge upon the racist. with your logic, you could assert that some ethnicities would inherently be better teachers, or doctors, or gangsters, etc.

please, don't make excuses for gehry or libeskind. their 'artistic' talent is driven more by their patrons' largesse, savvy marketing, and ultimately the gullible general public who often are wrapped up in their celeb status yet cannot discern the difference between shock value and architecture. prior to being discovered, gehry worked on low budget, boxy, utilitarian buildings like that mall in santa monica. no one accused him of being an artistic genius back then. as for libeskind, he's just gehry with a ruler.

i'm not a fan of either c.y. lee nor cris yao. but get it straight. these 2 aren't the BEST of what taiwan, or any other place can offer. read a periodical highlighting good, not famous, architects and you'll see.

LAX is as modernist as say, taoyuan. LAX has a funky googie theme building. but taoyuan actually works, whereas LAX is one step away from hosting farm animals. they're both (mostly) utilitarian.

i'm surprised you're lukewarm towards japanese architecture. modernists tend to gravitate towards japan, as japanese architecture generally does not contain the historicist references (some blueblood in tweed), nor as much of the media-driven avant-garde (gehry in all-black) details.


re: comment on LA's design sense - I'm talking about prevailing attitudes about design, not functionality, urban planning, or civil-engineering. I know that on skyscraperpage, we're all perfectly content with our typological understanding of architecture, but get your mind out of that LEED-happy tree-hugging mentality for a moment. I'm speaking strictly right-brain here. Public commissions on the purely aesthetic traits of schools, government buildings, train stations, airports, commissions on large multi-million dollar commercial projects such as that of Library tower, the Getty, etc.

Do you honestly think that Taiwanese society, the one you yourself agreed that which for whatever reason lags the West in valuing art/architecture, has as much interest in public design and context (apart from the mom-pop do-it-yourself crap you'll find in LA) as the US? Are you saying that the American equivalent of TPE 101 would ever occur here, and to the nth degree as it does in greater China? It just doesn't happen. And there's a reason for that. Would you like to offer a plausible explanation as to why? Because I can name dozens of publically-bidded (aka "budget") projects that most people would agree have better design sense than the exhorbitantly expensive KMT headquarters, Core Pacific Center, TPE 101, CKS, and so forth. Correspondingly, I don't think anybody would agree with you if you tried to excuse the rampant and strangely reliable commissioning of mega-million dollar eyesores with your cost-conscious theory. How many aesthetic misses does Taiwan need before you finally admit that these are just reflections of the prevailing taste over there? I don't really care if you've worked with a few token Asian renegades, not even if they themselves sport black turtlenecks. Are you going to compare mom-and-pop stores in Taipei with those in LA? That's completely missing the point - overzealous, disposable graphic signage was never conscientious architecture (or architecture at all) to begin with, I don't even understand your reasoning behind including that in this discussion. I'm saying that in Taiwan, almost all of the major architecture is offensively horrid, stuff that goes through as many levels of review, revision, and conscientous planning as any major project that occurs stateside, before opening to great local fanfare and applaud.

And I'm not lukewarm to Japanese architecture as I am skeptical of Japan's relative inability to get what Japan perceive's as its best (or most marketable, whatever you want to call their counterpart to the likes of America's pritzker elite) to do any notable major works. Are japanese architects really so austere to the extent that they'll personally refuse large commissions of any sort for fear of being discovered? I'm fully aware of the number of Japanese archtects "under the radar" who'll never see the light of day, yet somehow manage to be the best architects in the world (they're called "indie" or "authentic" in the US, and in a twist of fate rarely seen in Japan, they're tempted to sell-out and become Frank Gehry) and I detest what Gehry represents, but he's a pop icon and he clearly knows how to play up our popular desire for "authenticity", however invalid you believe him to be, in aesthetics/art/architecture/whatever. When CY Lee or whoever else gets the job, I hope to god that his crap isn't a reflection of Taiwan's social-aesthetic consciousness, or whatever, because if what you're saying is true, then all those art-historians were wrong and Japan is in fact, even more "high-brow/low-brow" than the US, and Taiwan/Greater China's way off the chart as far as that dichotomy's concerned.

and at the risk of ending up labeled a racist, I'll go ahead and say yes, I do think that some cultures inherently excel in certain things while others inherently lag - that is, before their culture decides to adapt and change. I really believe that natives in Swaziland lag in stemming the tide of HIV for their value of polygamy, paternalism, and lack of respect for women's rights perpetuates the conditions that have enabled HIV/AIDS to become an epidemic there. I also believe there is no coincidence that much of Germany's wealth lay disproportionately in the hands of Ashkenazic Jews right before the rise in anti-semitism swept the nation. Does it make me racist to believe that cultural values can influence a group of people to act in a way which alters their plight relative to others who don't share these values? Please. Don't get self-righteous/PC on me.

[slide_rule]

ok, i've stumbled across this at a late hour. i'll respond, but it'll be the last post for a while, as i cannot goof around for the next week or so.

I'm talking about prevailing attitudes about design
design is a highly subjective thing. every one of us has internalized the normative standards of our respective environments. you're obviously not a fan of chinese inspired architecture, or japanese austerity. it's your prerogative. but that doesn't mean they're inherently worse. others may not like pink stucco mediterranean houses, or second empire, or whatever.

I am skeptical of Japan's relative inability to get what Japan perceive's as its best (or most marketable, whatever you want to call their counterpart to the likes of America's pritzker elite) to do any notable major works

you really need to know more about architecture before making blanket statements like that. i'm trying hard to not be condescending, but anyone who's had any architectural education will find your statements to be absurd. the tokyo national gymnasium is an icon on the level of lecorbusier's or frank lloyd wright's best.
quite a few japanese architects have won big-time commissions. kenzo tange, kisho kurokawa, fumihiko maki, shin takamatsu, etc. arata isozaki won the commission for the LA museum of contemporary art. botond bognar has written extensively about japanese architecture.

http://www.walkaboutgalleries.com/largePics/large903.jpg
this is the kuala lumpur airport by kisho kurokawa. it's incredible. and easily a match for kansai, hong kong, incheon, pudong, guangzhou, and all the other glamor airports. as an aside, have you been to asia outside of taiwan? you seem to bag on it, without actually giving an accurate description. not every train station has a pagoda attached to it.

as for japanese and other asian architects being less prominent/famous than the present crop of big-name western architects; well, i've tried to explain it before. architectural fame isn't exactly meritorious. it's especially bad in our media-driven age. celeb culture and good PR can often compensate for a lack of everything else. the best-connected and the luckiest (e.g. gehry, libeskind, et. al.) often trump more the more talented.

an architect getting a big-time commission is about as uncommon as an actor becoming a hollywood star. you don't see many non-westerners making it in hollywood, but does that mean they're worse actors? conversely, colin farrell and frank gehry are at the top of their professions, but does that mean they're especially deserving?

purely aesthetic traits of schools, government buildings, train stations, airports
you mean LAX and cookie cutter high schools and all those cut-rate caltrans stations have design in them? unless it's some utopian world which places art on a pedestal and has inexhaustible budgets for otherwise utilitarian buildings; you're not going to find anything special in 99.9% of buildings. it's sad but true. taiwan's construction market isn't saturated, and it suffers from a harsh climate, thus it's even more difficult to achieve beauty there. i do think it's hypocritical of you to highlight the crappy everyday architecture of taiwan as emblematic of a cultural flaw while continually overlooking similar stuff elsewhere. sure, taipei is a mess. so is ventura boulevard, and my friend's pre-fab low-rise municipal office (one of a zillion) with cheap ceiling tiles in la puente, and the bonaventure, and san bernardino, and... you get the picture.

Are you saying that the American equivalent of TPE 101 would ever occur here?
YES! there's no monopoly on stupidity. it's also narcissistic to assume one place is immune from similar bouts of stupidity. "oh, they're just dumb, we're so much smUrter".

http://www.taylorphoto.com/portfolio/images/exterior2.jpg
this isn't just any crappy pomo building. it inspired a decade of crappy copies. this was hailed as refreshing and artistically adventurous by the same arbiters of fashion who now refer to gehry and libeskind and zaha hadid as geniuses. as someone raised in america, it may be easier for you to see through the frivolity of the taipei 101. but you've become inured to low-brow balloon framed faux tudors and spanish revival houses, and all the eye-catching, media darling, blobs and shards on the high end. the big-budget, big-fame disney hall has about as much staying power as the portland building.

http://www.thecityreview.com/phaid55.jpg
http://www.galinsky.com/buildings/wexner/wexner1.jpg
http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/restbatch3/brownderby.jpg
actually, the brown derby isn't too bad. but then again, how is a hat much different from a stack of chinese takeout containers?

unfortunately, only american/anglo centric architectural magazines are generally available at the local bookstores. but IF you get the chance, and if you're inclined to look, try GA or Japan Architect. seeing the works of these architects will permanently dispel any notions of a dearth of talent. there are other publications regarding architecture in asia, but they're harder to find in north america. architects from south/southeast asia and latin america get even less acclaim. but there's a lot of talent in those regions as well. let me guess, you're not going to bother, because you'll have to deal with dissonance?

at the risk of ending up labeled a racist, I'll go ahead and say yes, I do think that some cultures inherently excel in certain things while others inherently lag
you do realize that the american elite of architects is predominantly jewish, yet jews were seen as lacking in architectural talent for the longest time? the existence of competent jewish architects didn't seem to dent these notions. the stereotype held that jewish people were only interested in practical, money-making pursuits. and because of their itinerant existence, buildings held little appeal to them. jews had the money, yet their taste was derivative and trashy... this stereotype existed until the 20th. century. kinda makes you wonder about your own theories? cultural determinism didn't work for the fascists, it doesn't work for architecture either.

what if someone stated that you could not excel at your chosen field because of your ethnicity? could you agree?

i'm not labelling you as a racist. but you're manipulating architecture as a crutch to project your own inferiority/superiority complex. a lack of architectural knowledge then allows you to justify your attitude. yet you soldier on, with questionable logic too. IF you ever actually study architecture, you'll see past your initial notions of tacked on pagodas and swirling dragons and the taipei 101.

[Razqal]

slide rule, you clearly know your stuff. your posts are really articulate and intelligent and best of all you did your research and have pictures to support your points!! are you an architect, work around the industry or just read alot? ;)

it's interesting you pointing out that edluva seems to have an inferiority complex cuz that's what i'm picking up as well. edluva, you're rambling in your posts, dude, so i just skimmed thru them, no offense. :D like, what does AIDS have to do with architecture? talk about going off on a tangent! you definitely have a "west is better" mentality that one can pick up from your posts. but i clearly relate to your thinking because i actually have a similar background as you. therefore, i also have a tendency to compare taiwan/asia with western countries/culture and think everything with the former sucks in comparison to the latter. but sticking to the topic, that being THSR stations, i still think the stations generally kick ass and tsoying is not that bad. just because it reflects local taiwanese/asian/japanese (whatever) aesthetics does not make it a bad design. i also live in LA and there are many bland, ugly buildings designed by locals here as well. i bet if tsoying was in LA and designed by a local LA architect, i'm pretty sure you would have no problem with it.

Do you honestly think that Taiwanese society, the one you yourself agreed that which for whatever reason lags the West in valuing art/architecture, has as much interest in public design and context (apart from the mom-pop do-it-yourself crap you'll find in LA) as the US? Are you saying that the American equivalent of TPE 101 would ever occur here, and to the nth degree as it does in greater China? It just doesn't happen. And there's a reason for that. Would you like to offer a plausible explanation as to why? Because I can name dozens of publically-bidded (aka "budget") projects that most people would agree have better design sense than the exhorbitantly expensive KMT headquarters, Core Pacific Center, TPE 101, CKS, and so forth. Correspondingly, I don't think anybody would agree with you if you tried to excuse the rampant and strangely reliable commissioning of mega-million dollar eyesores with your cost-conscious theory. How many aesthetic misses does Taiwan need before you finally admit that these are just reflections of the prevailing taste over there?

fyi, core pacific city mall was designed by an AMERICAN architect, Jon Jerde, based in LA(venice beach). so now that you know a westerner designed it, are you going to blame the taiwanese client for hiring a westerner to design something you deem an 'eyesore'? or is it acceptable now? do you even know your architects/architecture/architectural projects? and i love that mall!! it's wild, crazy, different, fun and entertaining!! and it was intentionally designed that way to fit the theme of the project, which is a 24 hour entertainment center. how boring and inappropriate would it be if it was just another glass box?

and what is wrong with japanese architecture? japanese architects are some of the most respected in the world and there's alot of beautiful architecture there.

[Razqal]

http://www.lileks.com/postcards/rest/restbatch3/brownderby.jpg

so edluva, if this was in taiwan, it's an eyesore. but because it's in LA, it's great architecture, eh? great point, slide_rule. btw, i've always wanted to try the food there. probably overpriced diner food patronized by tourists.

[Razqal]

you do realize that the american elite of architects is predominantly jewish, yet jews were seen as lacking in architectural talent for the longest time?

i had no idea!! jews seem to excel in almost every field, don't they? well, except sports, like asians. :rolleyes: :cool: :haha:

[Nutterbug]

i had no idea!! jews seem to excel in almost every field, don't they? well, except sports, like asians. :rolleyes: :cool: :haha:

Asians are two feet tall. What's the Jews' excuse? :haha:

[Razqal]

Asians are two feet tall. What's the Jews' excuse? :haha:


they just have no talent? :haha:

P.S. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE SERVER IN THE SKYSCRAPERPAGE SITE? I'M ALWAYS GETTING AN ERROR MESSAGE WHEN I TRY TO ENTER THE FORUM OR POST SOMETHING!!! THEY SHOULD JUST SHUT DOWN THE ENTIRE SITE AND EVERYONE GO TO SKYSCRAPERCITY.COM!!!!