[impressingagent]

ill help build the tower for free! put my name on a bathroom floor tile for the effort. they can hire all of the artspace tenants for low wage.. or set up some kind of volunteer program.

[bloburgher]

People will come. One day, people will come. Great airport, 75 minute drive to the biggest city in Canada, 55 minute flight to the biggest city in the US, 60 minute flight to the nations capital it seems like a good place to do business cheaply with easy access to the corporate and political centers of a continent and the world. Wish B-lo was in a different state. Maybe the desert and tropical boomtowns will dry up one day as predicted by many and people will really come again.

[Downtown Bolivar]

St. Louis and Cleveland have hardly turned around. They are both in the same boat as Buffalo if not more so.
I beg to differ on St. Louis--it posted a population gain in 2000 and I believe it will again in 2010 (despite estimated census figures for the years in between). That's a sign of life that neither Cleveland or Buffalo has managed to show and probably will not for some time to come. That and unlike Buffalo, both St. Louis and Cleveland are growing their metro areas as well. Buffalo is sitting in a perfect storm of factors that keep it stagnant and shrinking. We've talked about those factors ad nauseum and little has changed.

[Downtown Bolivar]

People will come. One day, people will come. Great airport, 75 minute drive to the biggest city in Canada, 55 minute flight to the biggest city in the US, 60 minute flight to the nations capital it seems like a good place to do business cheaply with easy access to the corporate and political centers of a continent and the world. Wish B-lo was in a different state. Maybe the desert and tropical boomtowns will dry up one day as predicted by many and people will really come again.
There's nothing "cheap" about doing business in NY. Despite low rent taxes, fees, regulations, labor, etc. all make Buffalo an unappetizing place to do business. I agree with your statement that in another state Buffalo would be doing better. Outside of Ohio and Michigan, midwestern states are doing quite well, as well as the Southeast and the Southwest, the Mountain West and the Westcoast--hey wait did I just name every region in the country outside of the Northeast? Yep I think I did.

[Austinlee]

The states of New York and California are the two worst for doing business in the latest poll of executives.
http://www.sunherald.com/business/story/326971.html

[Doozine]

There's nothing "cheap" about doing business in NY. Despite low rent taxes, fees, regulations, labor, etc. all make Buffalo an unappetizing place to do business. I agree with your statement that in another state Buffalo would be doing better. Outside of Ohio and Michigan, midwestern states are doing quite well, as well as the Southeast and the Southwest, the Mountain West and the Westcoast--hey wait did I just name every region in the country outside of the Northeast? Yep I think I did.

I only partially agree with this statement. What about Ohio and Michigan? According to Smart Money (The Wall Street Journal Magazine) Youngstown, Toledo, Canton and Lansing all have had price increases of at least 3% over the past year. Thats a hell of a lot better than Stockton California and other cities just like it (Bakersfield, Portland, Phoenix) where real estate prices are so overvalued (in some cases up to 50%) that investors and homeowners are just staying away. For instance Stockton has hit the highest foreclosure rate in the country with just about 2 out of 3 houses on the market being foreclosures. There will be a correction and prices will inevitably decline. As far as Buffalo's current situation it is my belief that it is in a perfect setting for a comeback. It doesnt need to move to a different state or anything of that sort. According to numerous publications, including Fortune Magazine, the three cities in the northeast with the highest projected real estate price increases are (in order) 1. Syracuse 2. Rochester 3. Buffalo ... thats literally beating NYC, Boston and also swanky Connecticut cities like Hartford. Price increases are good when they happen on a small scale, say .5 - 2 % in a fiscal quarter, and when they are happening in already undervalued markets. That shows investors and companies that prices are on the rebound. Fees and regulations are in fact strangling the life out of this once thriving metropolis, but if we just hang in there and shoot a few NIMBY's we'll be sittin' pretty.

[Sgt. Sabre]

The states of New York and California are the two worst for doing business in the latest poll of executives.
http://www.sunherald.com/business/story/326971.html
I read, I think in a News editorial (too lazy to dig it up :)) that New York was second only to Hawaii in terms of cost of doing business. And from that, you can conclude that Hawaii has an entirely different set of circumstances and the two shouldn't even be compared. Of course they should be more expensive, just based on logistical problems alone! I bet if you took that out and focused on government-imposed taxation and regulation, we'd literally blow Hawaii "out of the water".

...hey wait did I just name every region in the country outside of the Northeast? Yep I think I did.

There are several states in the northeast that are doing quite well for themselves as well. It's a NY thing, mostly, as it tends to dominate the ne'ern corner of the country. A vestige from the days when it was actually a powerful and even progressive state.

[9091]

^^^A turn around would be a population gain. St. Louis managed to do this despite high crime and a general negative image. St. Loius had a population loss of approximately 50,000 people from 1990 to 2000. No gain, no turnaround.

http://www.genealogybranches.com/stlouispopulation.html

[westcoastperspective]

What? No discussion on the ultimatum the City gave the owner of AM&A's????

[steel]

I beg to differ on St. Louis--it posted a population gain in 2000 and I believe it will again in 2010 (despite estimated census figures for the years in between). That's a sign of life that neither Cleveland or Buffalo has managed to show and probably will not for some time to come. That and unlike Buffalo, both St. Louis and Cleveland are growing their metro areas as well. Buffalo is sitting in a perfect storm of factors that keep it stagnant and shrinking. We've talked about those factors ad nauseum and little has changed.

Cleveland has one of the highest foreclosure rates in the nation. St. Louis has been hemorrhaging corporate headquarters. Both have massive losses in manufacturing jobs and continue to experience white flight. St. Louis metro population growth has slowed from 4.6% to 1.2%. Hardly signs of a turn around. Cleveland's metro population is projected to drop by over 5% in the next 20 years being surpassed by both Cincinnati and Columbus in size

[Sgt. Sabre]

What? No discussion on the ultimatum the City gave the owner of AM&A's????

About frickin' time.

[FireMedic]

About frickin' time.

Buffalo is no postion to give ultimatums.

AM&M's building has had like 10 owners in 12 years
The AM&A's building has been vacant since 1995
when the Bon Ton closed.

Speaking of ultimatums, Remember last year when
when City of Buffalo gave a 30 days ultimatum to
Bass Pro or they would take away the 60+ million Dollar
in public handouts. Thirty days past and Buffalo extended
deadline indefinitely, let's see that was 15 months ago
and Bass Pro still hasn't signed a thing. not even a pre pre
agreement.

Also last year, City of Buffalo gave the ultimatum
to Seneca's Indians about building their casino in downtown
Buffalo insisted on hiring quotes about city residents.
Again the deadline past. Buffalo then withdrew their
ultimatum.

[westcoastperspective]

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/4610/899senecazw1.png

Planning Board OK’s CityView project

By Sharon Linstedt NEWS BUSINESS REPORTER

Plans for a new, $10 million office/retail complex, near the Smith Street exit of the I-190, have gained approval from the city’s planning board.

CityView Properties proposes to build a 90,000-squarefoot, two-building development at 889 Seneca St., on a two-acre site bounded by Smith and Exchange streets. The buildings are designed to look like turnof- the-century industrial structures. Plans call for two-story and three-story buildings to be constructed side-by-side, connected by a center lobby and walkway.

The building design also intergrates covered parking for 60 vehicles.

“We’re happy to get city approval and could be under construction this year depending on tenant interest,” said City- View principle Howard A. Zemsky.

CityView, which is quickly running out of space at its nearby 600,000-square-foot Larkin Co. Building at 701 Exchange St., is talking with several prospective office and retail tenants.

“The exact dimensions of the buildings could change based on tenant demand, but this is basically what we expect to build,” said Zemsky. “We’re almost out of room at Larkin. It’s 98 percent leased.”

CityView previously demolished the former Mayflower moving company depot which was located on the property, so it is shovel-ready.

Current plans calls for office tenancy to dominate the development, with 75,000-squarefeet of Class-A office space. First floor retail, including a small restaurant, will account for the remaining 15,000 square feet of use.

The Seneca Street complex is one of several new-build and reuse projects CityView unveiled last year as part of its “Larkin District Masterplan.” That blueprint includes a mix of office, retail and residential projects the development company wants to take over over the next decade.

http://www.buffalonews.com/businesstoday/localbusiness/story/264001.html

[Downtown Bolivar]

^^^That looks like a fabulous project. The Larkin District is really taking hold.

[Sgt. Sabre]

Buffalo is no postion to give ultimatums.
There's a loser mentality if I've ever seen one.

You're never not in a position to give ultimatums if you're interested in improving yourself. Maybe you even ought to ditch that attitude and give yourself an ultimatum to draft some proper typing skills.

They need to give more and even more importantly stand up for themselves and maintain them. There is a market, and there will always be somebody else. You don't want to do business by our rules? Goodbye, and have no business, and good luck breaking into any other market with that philosophy; you'll be run into the ground by your new competition.

[9091]

Hotel/Office proposal for Erie Basin Marina, Buffalo, NY USA
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6855/1crawdadhl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Halovet]

Hotel/Office proposal for Erie Basin Marina, Buffalo, NY USA
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6855/1crawdadhl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)Wasn't this 8 years ago?:D Just something else to yank our chain. This, Adelphia, Issa, shit, that Seneca Street Elevation will probably be the tallest thing built in Buffalo from now on.

[Nickelplate]

Born and raised in Buffalo. I live in Austin and have lived all over the left coast. People who have never been to NY always say they really want to go and the people that have moved away all have a love for their hometown. I think the negativity of Buffalo stems from the people that live there. I moved away like everyone else, because of my job. If Buffalo can figure out a way to lure me and all the people back who love our city and want to contribute our talents to the local economy, Buffalo will be on the incline. I pray for that day I can move back and live in my favorite city with my family and be comfortable.

[westcoastperspective]

Born and raised in Buffalo. I think the negativity of Buffalo stems from the people that live there. I moved away like everyone else, because of my job. If Buffalo can figure out a way to lure me and all the people back who love our city and want to contribute our talents to the local economy, Buffalo will be on the incline. I pray for that day I can move back and live in my favorite city with my family and be comfortable.

Ditto. Well said.

[sullymon54]

it's easy to say positive things when you're surrounded by new and large scale development in Austin and Sacramento. I think it's easy to forget the negative things once people move away and just focus on the positives. That being said there is a lot of new investment in the city, most of it promises, the failures and negatives really seem to mount when you see you're neighborhood disappearing before your eyes from "emergency demolitions." The completion of anything positive ie) the statler, the gates circle tower specifically with-out incident would help. It's just really tough looking at the regions situation empirically and staying positive.

[Nickelplate]

it's easy to say positive things when you're surrounded by new and large scale development in Austin and Sacramento. I think it's easy to forget the negative things once people move away and just focus on the positives. That being said there is a lot of new investment in the city, most of it promises, the failures and negatives really seem to mount when you see you're neighborhood disappearing before your eyes from "emergency demolitions." The completion of anything positive ie) the statler, the gates circle tower specifically with-out incident would help. It's just really tough looking at the regions situation empirically and staying positive.

Understood, I agree with you.

[9091]

it's easy to say positive things when you're surrounded by new and large scale development in Austin and Sacramento. I think it's easy to forget the negative things once people move away and just focus on the positives. That being said there is a lot of new investment in the city, most of it promises, the failures and negatives really seem to mount when you see you're neighborhood disappearing before your eyes from "emergency demolitions." The completion of anything positive ie) the statler, the gates circle tower specifically with-out incident would help. It's just really tough looking at the regions situation empirically and staying positive.
You speak the truth

[impressingagent]

Wasn't this 8 years ago?:D Just something else to yank our chain. This, Adelphia, Issa, shit, that Seneca Street Elevation will probably be the tallest thing built in Buffalo from now on.


wow thats pretty incredible that something like this was proposed! it makes all my imaginative romanticizing seem sane. Kind of awesome that someone else had the opinion that this land could sell, what exactly happened to the project?

how many stories is that thing? it looks well over 30! that location is so sexy


i think we need to have a national hall of fame towards failure. seriously!
It would be extremely interesting!


u gotta think that this city has enough Disney children to give this city its identity back.

[Halovet]

wow thats pretty incredible that something like this was proposed! it makes all my imaginative romanticizing seem sane. Kind of awesome that someone else had the opinion that this land could sell, what exactly happened to the project?

how many stories is that thing? it looks well over 30! that location is so sexy


i think we need to have a national hall of fame towards failure. seriously!
It would be extremely interesting!


u gotta think that this city has enough Disney children to give this city its identity back.

It would have been 900 ft tall, cant remember the stories. There were three proposes. This one, which was residential, a two tower office/hotel complex 27 and 18 stories (if memory serves) and a 2 story complex. City fathers ENTHUSIASTICLY backed the 2 story complex. I believe a Chinese restaurant or something.

[westcoastperspective]

If/when the Bills leave, we just may have a casino to blow money at- Senecas have quietly begun work on the permanent casino. :rolleyes:

[9091]

The Bills will be in Buffalo as long as Wilson is alive after that the new owner could very well keep them in Buffalo or move them anywhere. If they move they are more likely to move to a US city than a canadian one because of the monies paid by the US networks. The Bills draw over 1.2 million homes across upstate NY in nielson ratings on a typical Sunday(Buf, Roch, SYR and Utical/Rome). Toronto would give CBS or Fox a net loss in households of at least 900,000 households with 300,000 watching whatever game is on. 900,000 homes is significant to the US networks, so Toronto is a longshot for permanent relocation, LA on the other hand......

[mrussell83]

Erie County Executive Chris Collins says everything is on the table in discussions to keep the Bills in Western New York and that includes the idea of a new stadium on Buffalo's waterfront.

Collins spokesman Grant Loomis says as part of that discussion there must be some talk about
where to put a new stadium and the county executive favors the idea of a waterfront location in the city.

This follows the Bills' formal announcement earlier this week in Toronto that they will play a mix of regular season and preseason games at the Rogers Center. Bills' owner Ralph Wilson says he will not sell the team while he is alive but he cannot speculate about the future. Bills management officials say the decision to play in Toronto will help expand their market to help the team survive in a small market.


Collins said throughout his campaign last year that keeping the Bills in Western New York would be a high priority for his administration. He is expected to comment on the issue during a noon press conference.

Congressman Brian Higgins is also announcing his plan to ask the NFL to permit community ownership with local fans and other people allowed to purchase stock in the team. This would be a similar arrangement to the current ownership of the Green Bay Packers.

Stay tuned to 2 On Your Side and WGRZ.com for more information.

[MJW]

Erie County Executive Chris Collins says everything is on the table in discussions to keep the Bills in Western New York and that includes the idea of a new stadium on Buffalo's waterfront.

Collins spokesman Grant Loomis says as part of that discussion there must be some talk about
where to put a new stadium and the county executive favors the idea of a waterfront location in the city.

This follows the Bills' formal announcement earlier this week in Toronto that they will play a mix of regular season and preseason games at the Rogers Center. Bills' owner Ralph Wilson says he will not sell the team while he is alive but he cannot speculate about the future. Bills management officials say the decision to play in Toronto will help expand their market to help the team survive in a small market.


Collins said throughout his campaign last year that keeping the Bills in Western New York would be a high priority for his administration. He is expected to comment on the issue during a noon press conference.

Congressman Brian Higgins is also announcing his plan to ask the NFL to permit community ownership with local fans and other people allowed to purchase stock in the team. This would be a similar arrangement to the current ownership of the Green Bay Packers.

Stay tuned to 2 On Your Side and WGRZ.com for more information.

Who will pay for the stadium? Taxpayers? Look i'm a die hard Bills fan but it's about time we get our priorities straight here in WNY. I'd rather see 100's of millions spent on economic growth. Spend some of the money that would go to a new stadium on things like the Medical Campus.

[impressingagent]

The best spot for the stadium would be at the foot of mainstreet on the outerharbor.

[steel]

What a knee jerk reaction to propose a waterfront stadium. What rationale is there for putting a stadium and all its parking on the waterfront?

[WildCowboy]

What a knee jerk reaction to propose a waterfront stadium. What rationale is there for putting a stadium and all its parking on the waterfront?

This is Buffalo. Of course we're going to take up a huge chunk of prime waterfront land with a gargantuan structure that will be used 10 times a year.

[9091]

What a knee jerk reaction to propose a waterfront stadium. What rationale is there for putting a stadium and all its parking on the waterfront?

Who made such a proposal? Collins didn't, I heard his interview on WBEN and all he said was that it would be reasonable to expect a stadium component to be a part of any new lease negotiations, either existing, renovations, or new. He was not proposing one nor did he say he was necessarily in favor of one. He did say if a stadium was going to be considered for the waterfront it would have to be AWAY from prime waterfont land.

Do you think you could have lease negotiations witout discussing stadium issues in some manner?

[Downtown Bolivar]

New ownership is going to want a new stadium and I think downtown is where bigshots want it.

[sullymon54]

I would be fine with it if it were designed like this...
http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/10256/2730306630066366662S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2730306630066366662mvuppJ)
Qwest Field, Seattle WA
Notice the intermodal transit adjacent to the east, attached convention center to the south, and dense urban districts surrounding it. Oh and the city currently has an rfp out for the parking lot to the north.

And not like this.
http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/42063/2850683720066366662S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2850683720066366662PcVHCV)
Chargers Stadium, San Diego CA

[Halovet]

The Bills will be in Buffalo as long as Wilson is alive after that the new owner could very well keep them in Buffalo or move them anywhere. If they move they are more likely to move to a US city than a canadian one because of the monies paid by the US networks. The Bills draw over 1.2 million homes across upstate NY in nielson ratings on a typical Sunday(Buf, Roch, SYR and Utical/Rome). Toronto would give CBS or Fox a net loss in households of at least 900,000 households with 300,000 watching whatever game is on. 900,000 homes is significant to the US networks, so Toronto is a longshot for permanent relocation, LA on the other hand......

Then adding more games at the Rogers and leaving the Bills in WNY makes more sense. A move without a move. With perhaps a Dome downtown. He's giving WNY five years to put something together. Sound fair to me.

and Sullyman54, you are right. I Billieve THIS is exactly what we will get.
http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/10256/2730306630066366662S600x600Q85.jpg
sure, there are lots of other things to spend tax payer money on, but that dont matter. This is what will take place. For any NYS elected offical to go against The Bills in any way would be political suicide. Expect construction to begin in 2 to 3 years.

[BANKofMANHATTAN]

If they were going to build something - I would suggest a dome (maybe not right on the waterfront). At least the structure could be used for other purposes in it's down time for events and concerts, seeing as we have that sorry excuse for a convention center.

I think money could be used for better purposes around the city of Buffalo at this point in time, however.

Seeing them play in the snow is great though!

[steel]

I think you have to go with a retractable dome. That way when Miami is in town in December you crank that thing wide open.

[Sgt. Sabre]

And make sure it's angled nearly perpendicular to the prevailing winds as the current stadium is now to ensure getting the worst possible weather/wind scenarios to occur.

[westcoastperspective]

Kissling's Allentown Lofts project getting closer to starting:

Old casket co. site becoming apartments
by James Fink Business First

A historic Virginia Street building that was home to a casket manufacturer and display center is about to find new life as an upscale apartment complex.

The Buffalo Planning Board unanimously approved plans by the Kissling Interests to transform the four-story former National Casket Co. plant at 430 Virginia St. into 10 upscale apartments. Kissling bought the building last year and had been working on development scenarios for the structure since then.

The planning board approval clears the path for the conversion to begin.

"Kissling envisions it as a kind of a live-work environment," said Jeremy Dwyer, an architect with Silvestri Architects P.C. Silvestri was retained as the project architect.

The building was constructed in 1925, with a garage unit added in the 1960s. It had been used as a casket assembly until National Casket sold the building to Kissling and moved its operations elsewhere in Buffalo.

Dwyer said plans call for the 10 apartments to feature a mix of one-bedroom and two-bedroom units, ranging in size from 1,300-square-feet to 2,200-square-feet.

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2008/02/11/daily16.html?jst=b_ln_hl

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5871/virginia2oy6.jpg

[9091]

Great news indeed! The old town is like a flower slowly blooming in the Spring after a long Winter.

[westcoastperspective]

Park Lane condo tower lawsuit has been dismissed! :banana:


http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2008/02/11/daily27.html?jst=b_ln_hl

http://buffalorising.com/story/breaking_gates_tower_lawsuit_d#sca

[9091]

Just as I said prior to your post. Great news indeedy

[Downtown Bolivar]

^^^whew! That's great news. Construction in 2008? It just shows that even though Buffalo missed the last real estate boom, it's still way underbuilt.

[westcoastperspective]

Surprise! New Horizon has the AM&As complex up for sale: $3.5 million. They bought it for $2 million and did NOTHING! :hell:

[BUFFALOVE!!]

^^^whew! That's great news. Construction in 2008? It just shows that even though Buffalo missed the last real estate boom, it's still way underbuilt.

yeah does anyone know how to post this in the city diagram board? ours is so depressing and needs some loven. plus the courttower needs to be drawn

[westcoastperspective]

The Martin Group's future offices at 477 Main Street, the former Wendy's. Carmina Wood Morris is the architect:

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/4602/477mainoldua4.jpg

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/4884/477mainda8.jpg

[sullymon54]

looks great, now if we could just get the damn train and its associated stations off the street so people could see it we'd be in business

[sullymon54]

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:54 AM EST
BERC's Wanamaker heading to West Coast
Business First of Buffalo - by James Fink Business First

Tim Wanamaker, head of the Buffalo Economic Renaissance Corp. and Buffalo Office of Strategic Planning for the past five years, has resigned to become city manager of Inglewood, Calif.

Wanamaker tendered his resignation late Tuesday to Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown shortly after the Inglewood City Council voted to offer him a contract. Terms of the contract were not revealed.

Brown and top members of his administration declined comment.

Wanamaker was recruited to Buffalo by former Mayor Anthony Masiello. He moved to Buffalo from Prince George's County, Md. in early 2003. Wanamaker brought a deep resume of talent and experience to Buffalo City Hall.

During his Buffalo tenure, Wanamaker tackled a number of tough development projects and issues including overseeing new housing projects in various neighborhoods along with a lengthy list of commercial projects ranging from working with Benderson Development Co. on bringing a Kohl's department store to North Buffalo to working with British investor Bashir Issa on the re-development of the Statler Towers. Buffalo has a development pipeline exceeding $4.4 billion - the highest in the city's history.

That he left Buffalo for another city was only a matter of when, not if, City Hall insiders said.

"We knew Tim would be on someone's radar screen," one insider said.

[Halovet]

yeah does anyone know how to post this in the city diagram board? ours is so depressing and needs some loven. plus the courttower needs to be drawn also 33 Gates Tower!:tup:

[Halovet]

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:54 AM EST
BERC's Wanamaker heading to West Coast
Business First of Buffalo - by James Fink Business First

Tim Wanamaker, head of the Buffalo Economic Renaissance Corp. and Buffalo Office of Strategic Planning for the past five years, has resigned to become city manager of Inglewood, Calif.

Wanamaker tendered his resignation late Tuesday to Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown shortly after the Inglewood City Council voted to offer him a contract. Terms of the contract were not revealed.

Brown and top members of his administration declined comment.

Wanamaker was recruited to Buffalo by former Mayor Anthony Masiello. He moved to Buffalo from Prince George's County, Md. in early 2003. Wanamaker brought a deep resume of talent and experience to Buffalo City Hall.

During his Buffalo tenure, Wanamaker tackled a number of tough development projects and issues including overseeing new housing projects in various neighborhoods along with a lengthy list of commercial projects ranging from working with Benderson Development Co. on bringing a Kohl's department store to North Buffalo to working with British investor Bashir Issa on the re-development of the Statler Towers. Buffalo has a development pipeline exceeding $4.4 billion - the highest in the city's history.

That he left Buffalo for another city was only a matter of when, not if, City Hall insiders said.

"We knew Tim would be on someone's radar screen," one insider said.
So go out and recriut someone else! None of this cry~baby~shit. We got people on this forum that could handle it. GEEZ!:shrug:

[buffaLOVE]

Does anyone know what the heights of the gates circle and casino towers will be? Also, will the casino tower affect the skyline much?

Thanks

[Doozine]

According to emporis.com, Gates Circle will be 23 floors, 279 feet. The Casino will be 22 floors (no exact heights have been given) and will be just outside the CBD, so Im guessing it will have a pretty big impact on the skyline. I am not sure of the exact location. Also does anyone know anything about the old Tishman Building aka 10 Lafayette Sq, aka 447 Main St that is up for sale? Any new developments? Any plans? Any interest? Are there currently tenants? Any info is great, and pictures would be even better. Also, does anyone have pictures of the developments downtown? Im in Chicago so I cant exactly see the old Tuffalo too often.

[Doozine]

Oh and I wish that the architects and developers on our casino would have used this design instead.... Atlantic city, 70 floors. Ultra swank.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=revelhoteltoweri-atlanticcity-nj-usa

Oh well ... we'll takes what we's can gets.

[westcoastperspective]

According to emporis.com, Gates Circle will be 23 floors, 279 feet. The Casino will be 22 floors (no exact heights have been given) and will be just outside the CBD, so Im guessing it will have a pretty big impact on the skyline. I am not sure of the exact location. Also does anyone know anything about the old Tishman Building aka 10 Lafayette Sq, aka 447 Main St that is up for sale? Any new developments? Any plans? Any interest? Are there currently tenants? Any info is great, and pictures would be even better. Also, does anyone have pictures of the developments downtown? Im in Chicago so I cant exactly see the old Tuffalo too often.

Try these:

http://www.buffalorising.com/story/project_update_tishman_buildin

http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives/2006/12/tishman_building_getting.php

http://www.buffalorising.com/story/tishman_building_alive_and_doi

Tishman has been for sale since the current owner bought it and the price is creeping up. Last I heard, there was a group from Cleveland serious about buying it and several other downtown properties. That was last fall and I haven't heard anything recently.

Stick around here- you'll see what's going on. Chicago? Know any good architects there?

http://www.buffalorising.com/story/downtown_development_year_end

[buffaLOVE]

On some other Buffalo sites someone mention something about Iskalo and a possible 20+ story tower. Just wondering if that was supported by anything or just some one dreaming.

[westcoastperspective]

On some other Buffalo sites someone mention something about Iskalo and a possible 20+ story tower. Just wondering if that was supported by anything or just some one dreaming.

Iskalo itself said they were planning a mid-rise building on the 500 block of Main but couldn't get the site- Rocco put it under option for Century City lofts project. That project is on ice for now. Iskalo hasn't said if they're still interested. Search Bflo Biz Journal for the Iskalo scoop.

[9091]

Try these:


Stick around here- you'll see what's going on. Chicago? Know any good architects there?

There are no good architects in Chicago, all the really good ones work with me on the "Isle":yes:

[westcoastperspective]

There are no good architects in Chicago, all the really good ones work with me on the "Isle":yes:

When are you moving off the Isle?

[9091]

When are you moving off the Isle?

Well there was talk of heading to the Issa Tower but since that project is in limbo - at best, no one is saying. Of course we do have room to expand where we are.

[westcoastperspective]

Well there was talk of heading to the Issa Tower but since that project is in limbo - at best, no one is saying. Of course we do have room to expand where we are.

Pass this to the higher ups over at Cannon: Get outta the 'burbs and into downtown. Your new St. Louis office puts "HQ's" to shame.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9228/1107154000ih0.jpg

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stories/2008/02/18/focus6.html?ana=from_rss

[9091]

Have you ever been in HQ?

[westcoastperspective]

Have you ever been in HQ?


No, but I've seen the exterior and know the location. It is the anti-St. Louis.

[Halovet]

No, but I've seen the exterior and know the location. It is the anti-St. Louis.

anti-St. Louis? Would that be O'Fallon?:lmao:

[9091]

No, but I've seen the exterior and know the location. It is the anti-St. Louis.

If you have no clue about what you are speaking, then it would perhaps be best if you didn't speak it. Comments borne of ignorance are not worth your typing them.

[westcoastperspective]

If you have no clue about what you are speaking, then it would perhaps be best if you didn't speak it. Comments borne of ignorance are not worth your typing them.


Oh Don't be a Jerome.

St. Louis- Urban historic restoration.
Grand Island- suburban new(er) build.

Tell me how I don't get it jerk-off.

[steel]

I would think that the location and existing building would be a hindrance to getting the best designers.

In General the best architectural designers are interested in an urban setting. Also the statement the existing HQ gives off is that Cannon does low level suburban strip mall architecture. It is the wrong image for them.

[9091]

I hope this does not foreshadow an FBI move out of Downtown Buffalo

FBI investigates Cincinnati's Sycamore Twp. site for new local office

Business Courier of Cincinnati - by Laura Baverman Staff Reporter

A prime 12-acre plot of land just off Inter­state 71 in Sycamore Township is expected to be the new home for the Federal Bureau of Investigation's local SWAT and HAZMAT operations, real estate sources say.

FBI property manager U.S. Government Services Administration said a decision on where to house the Special Weapons and Tactics and Hazardous Materials units would be made among three Hamilton County sites by the end of the month. It conducted environmental assessments at the Sycamore property, the site of the old Harley Hotel; the former NuTone headquarters at the intersection of Red Bank and Madison roads in Cincinnati; and the Norwood Plaza, a strip center on Montgomery Road near Xavier University's planned Xavier Square development.

"They have made it pretty clear that the Kenwood site is their No. 1," said Holly Childs, economic development director for the city of Cincinnati. The FBI employs 90 in the city, mostly at the Federal Building on Fourth Street downtown. She said the agency requires space for 97 to 146 employees but has given no specific building size requirements.

GSA spokesman Neil Omansky said the facility would be built in accordance with the FBI's national lease construction effort, a government-approved program to build field offices in the nation's largest markets.

The FBI's search began in August 2006, within the bounds of Interstate 275 and the Ohio River for a seven- to 12-acre site to build a facility it would then lease back from the property owner. The search narrowed due to a requirement that the building be constructed 100 feet from all property lines, for security purposes.
Sycamore Township officials said the agency met with residents in January to discuss the potential project.

"They were talking very conceptually about what they would do with a building," said Tom Weidman, a township trustee. "My perception was that the residents felt it was a pretty good deal."

Property owner Neyer Properties would not comment. According to the Hamilton County auditor's Web site, Neyer purchased the Harley site in 2003 for $5.1 million. It markets the property as Kenwood Towers on its Web site, with a plan that includes three office buildings and a hotel.

E-mail: lbaverman@bizjournals.com. Call: (513) 337-9431.

[9091]

Tell me how I don't get.To disparage the aesthetic qualities of a place you have never set foot in is ill conceived, as well as ill mannered.

[impressingagent]

ill save my aesthetic tense for those leaders who display actual contribution and effort. westcoast is not exactly pimpin' these boards for jibber jabber.

[Mr. Rochester]

Use to live in Amherst, moved back to Rochester and now is moving back to Buffalo. Does anyone know any good apartments from experience near UB?

[mrussell83]

Use to live in Amherst, moved back to Rochester and now is moving back to Buffalo. Does anyone know any good apartments from experience near UB?
North or city?

[homestar]

Well there was talk of heading to the Issa Tower but since that project is in limbo - at best, no one is saying. Of course we do have room to expand where we are.
Why would a company like Canon have to wait for someone else to build a tower. Why don't they build their own trendy HQ downtown. It would really impress clients more.

[homestar]

Iskalo itself said they were planning a mid-rise building on the 500 block of Main but couldn't get the site- Rocco put it under option for Century City lofts project. That project is on ice for now. Iskalo hasn't said if they're still interested.
To me this proves that Iskalo was never really serious. He was whining about what he wanted to do with the 500 block, but someone beat him to it. Now that the site is available again, he is nowhere to be found.

All Talk!

[Halovet]

Why would a company like Canon have to wait for someone else to build a tower. Why don't they build their own trendy HQ downtown. It would really impress clients more.Now, that's what I'm talkin bout homestar!:yes:

[westcoastperspective]

The first townhouse has sold at Waterfront Place:


Date/Time: 02/29/2008 15:53
Consideration: $559,000.00


Parties
D 1094 GROUP LLC
R MINEO MICHAEL J
R MINEO SUSAN M

CTY 3 OJIBWA 14202

[Mr. Rochester]

North or city?

North of course!!! haha

[Halovet]

The first townhouse has sold at Waterfront Place:


Date/Time: 02/29/2008 15:53
Consideration: $559,000.00


Parties
D 1094 GROUP LLC
R MINEO MICHAEL J
R MINEO SUSAN M

CTY 3 OJIBWA 14202




We may as well show the tower and townhouse for reference again. Hey,these are 6 wks old, so it's probably topped off by now.:yes:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7931/waterfronttownhomeseq1.jpg
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9160/waterfrontcondo1jj3.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3204/waterfrontcondo2py6.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8812/waterfrontcondo4qn3.jpg

[FireMedic]

I don't if you should call it a tower ? It's not that tall,
But then again, that's tallest building that's been built in
downtown Buffalo in 40 years

[Nickelplate]

13 stories would be considered a highrise.

Both of these towers are taller than Waterfront place and were built in 1990. Not exactly 40 years ago, sorry pal.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/cx/?id=keycenter-buffalo

[westcoastperspective]

I've asked about the proposals received for the two Waterfront Village parcels undeveloped but haven't gotten a clear answer from the City on when a developer will be chosen. Not sure if Wannamaker's departure is playing any role in the schedule for picking a 'winner.' The only thing I've heard is Ciminelli is the favorite (office/hotel/retail) for the Shanghai parcel. Haven't heard anything about Lakefront. I did see Savarino's proposal- four buildings of two-story brick townhomes.

The official word on a second tower, straight from Carl Paladino, was they'll look at another phase once they are done with building what they've started. So, in theory, we could know something later this year.

[FireMedic]

Benderson faces criticism on vacancies
Opponents of Amherst project say developer has not found tenants for many retail sites
By Sandra Tan
Updated: 03/03/08 6:44 AM

Benderson Development is a major force in Amherst. Owner of more than 40 commercial properties and eight parcels of yet-to-be-developed land, the company always has been a big political and economic player.

But some residents are asking why the company is not doing more to fill its vacancies.

Critics are citing the vacancies in opposing Benderson’s latest proposal, a $44 million mixed-use development on 32 acres formerly occupied by the Buffalo Shooting Club on Maple Road.

Displaying photos of vacant Benderson retail properties, they ask whether Benderson should get the green light to build a new complex when so many storefronts remain empty.

Recently released portfolio information, provided by Benderson, puts the company’s actual Amherst retail vacancy rate at 12 percent.

“I think it’s pretty typical of northeastern, second tier markets,” said Michael Clark, director of retail services for C.B. Richard Ellis-Buffalo, the real estate services company that conducts the only retail market analysis for Western New York.

Benderson owns 29 retail parcels in Amherst — more parcels than any other developer. The company also owns eight office buildings, three hotels and a Delta Sonic car wash complex in the town.

The properties generate $2.7 million in total tax revenue a year.

Benderson Vice President Eric Re-coon said Benderson’s vacancy rate is lower than the national average. But he could provide no verifiable figures to support this claim.

The most recently published data from the International Council of Shopping Centers — an authority on retail statistics — put the national retail vacancy rate at 6 percent to 7 percent. But its data does not include single-tenant properties.

C.B. Richard Ellis’ latest retail market analysis puts the overall retail vacancy rate for the Amherst area at 6 percent to 9 percent, excluding malls.

That study, however, excludes all retail properties of less than 50,000 square feet. In Amherst, Benderson has only five retail properties that exceed that threshold.

Critics have noted that the former Vix Drugstore plaza at Maple and North Forest roads, a Benderson property near the former shooting club, has been a vacant eyesore for years.

Benderson recently rolled out plans for a Rite Aid drugstore on that site. Part of the Vix building would be converted into offices.

With Benderson’s properties drawing criticism, Council Member Guy Marlette asked the developer to detail the company’s retail holdings and vacancies in Amherst.

“Their vacancy rate was much lower than I anticipated,” he said.

The bulk of vacant retail properties in Amherst are located along Sheridan Drive between Niagara Falls Boulevard and Sweet Home Road.

A Benderson analysis done last year showed this stretch alone accounts for roughly 480,000 square feet of vacant retail space.

Benderson owns no unleased retail buildings on Sheridan Drive. It owns the vacant parcel on the northeast corner of Sheridan and Bailey, but the town has approved plans for a Wal-Mart store on the site.

Benderson representatives also point out that the proposed Maple Road development, called Amherst Town Centre, would bring in more than $1 million in school and town tax revenue.

Opponents, however, say the project simply would entice retailers to move from other locations in Amherst.

That won’t solve the town’s bigger vacancy problems, say representatives of the Fairways Boulevard Group, which consists of owners of homes in Maple Road subdivisions near the gun club property.

But Recoon says Amherst Town Centre will be a unique “lifestyle center,” a mixed-use development that would attract new retail chains to Western New York rather than lure businesses from other parts of Amherst.

It would combine retail outlets with upper-story office and residential spaces, as well as public gathering places, according to Benderson. A townhouse development would anchor the western end of the project, while a hotel would anchor the northeast end.

Judy Ferraro, an organizer with the Fairways Group, said the developer can’t guarantee that Amherst Town Centre’s tenants would all be new.

“We already have retail,” she said. “We already have restaurants. We already have grocery stores. How different can it be?”

She added that while Benderson does pay taxes on its properties, the company isn’t a charity.

“Quite frankly, they’re making a great deal of money off the Town of Amherst,” she said. “They do give back, granted, but it’s just a portion of what they have made off the town. It is small in comparison.”

The Town Board was scheduled to vote today on Benderson’s rezoning request for the project. But because of a recently completed independent traffic study and its impact on Benderson’s design plans, the board now is expected to delay its decision to April 7.

[BUFFALOVE!!]

Falso dick face. Key towers north and south are taller and were built in the 90´s

I don't if you should call it a tower ? It's not that tall,
But then again, that's tallest building that's been built in
downtown Buffalo in 40 years

[FireMedic]

OK correction, then only one high rise (a 17 story built 1990)
built in the last 40 years in Buffalo, New york

If you compare 1970 to 2008 Buffalo, New York
skyline, it's look's just about the same.

[Downtown Bolivar]

^^^So what? What's your point? You keep making the same post over and over again. There's no reason for you to post on this thread anymore--we understand quite clearly your point of view.

[Halovet]

^^^So what? What's your point? You keep making the same post over and over again. There's no reason for you to post on this thread anymore--we understand quite clearly your point of view.

Don't let him get to you. Every City thread has a "Fire Medic". In fact, by comparison, he's quite tame. Perhaps, when 33 Gates Circle is complete, he'll melt, like the Wicked Witch of The West.:jester:

If you havent fiqured out by now, he likes pullin your chain, shame on ya!:rolleyes:

[steel]

He is worst then any other poster. LOL

[Downtown Bolivar]

So I just read the story about Buffalo-Niagara Riverkeeper's new digs on Niagara. 12 employees and 2 interns?! Where does a group like this get its money? Private citizens? This is basically an environmental/preservation/NIMBY group, right? No wonder nothing gets done--there are people employed not to get stuff done!

[westcoastperspective]

Build up strong for Elmwood area condos
Business First of Buffalo - by James Fink Business First

Market demand has prompted the developers of an Elmwood Village area condominium project to slightly alter their plans, giving the project two additional units.

The development trio of local architect Karl Frizlen, contractor Paul Johnson and attorney Michael Ferdman have tweaked the design of the Elmwood Village Condominiums on West Utica Street to now feature 14 units instead of the 12 that were originally planned.

"It is a response to the market," said Ellen Warner, a broker with RealtyUSA.

Warner and Maureen Flavin, also from RealtyUSA, are handling the sales in the project.

The new plans call for six smaller sized condos on the buildings first floor instead of the four that were included in the initial plans. The units will range in size from a one-bedroom unit with 1,093-square-feet to two-bedroom condos with 1,408-square-feet. Prices for the first floor units will run from approximately $230,000 to $297,000.

All of the units come with such amenities as an underground parking space and environmentally-friendly appliances and finishes.

"We found there is a need and a want for smaller units," Warner said.

Three of the complex's upper end units on its top floor are already under contract. Construction won't start until at least seven units are under contract.

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2008/03/03/daily39.html?t=printable

[Jas]

They started pouring the concrete underground walls for the Courthouse this past week!

[Halovet]

They started pouring the concrete underground walls for the Courthouse this past week!
Much needed good news!:tup:

[Halovet]

Frank Lloyd Wright's Darwin Martin House soon will have visitors center

Three-sided glass structure will include interpretive gallery

By Mark Sommer - News Staff Reporter
Updated: 03/06/08 9:45 AM

Excavators scooped up frozen earth from the Darwin D. Martin House complex site Wednesday, as the highly anticipated visitors pavilion was officially launched.

The sleek design by New York City architect Toshiko Mori calls for a transparent, three-sided glass structure located west of the Martin House. The pavilion, designed as a visitors center and interpretive gallery, is expected to be completed in December.

http://media.buffalonews.com/smedia/2008/03/06/09/985-martin_house_pavilion_LOCAL_DARWIN_MARTIN_PAVILION_GEE.standalone.prod_affiliate.50.jpg
Derek Gee / Buffalo News
A model of the Darwin D. Martin Complex with the new Eleanor and Wilson Greatbach Pavilion, the light colored building at center, designed by architect Toshiko Mori, is on display during a ceremony to mark the beginning of construction on the new pavilion.
http://media.buffalonews.com/smedia/2008/03/06/06/13-bn-20080306-B001-newdesigntojoin-44126-MI0001.embedded.prod_affiliate.50.jpg
Derek Gee/Buffalo News
Ami Greatbatch, co-chairwoman of East Hill Foundation talks about the Martin House complex visitors pavilion whose construction was officially launched Wednesday.
http://media.buffalonews.com/smedia/2008/03/06/07/947-0306wilson_bw.standalone.prod_affiliate.50.jpg
Derek Gee/Buffalo News
Wilson and Eleanor Greatbatch attend the ceremony officially launching construction of a visitors pavilion, to be named for them, at the Darwin Martin House complex.


The pavilion by Toshiko Mori will be a statement to the world that Buffalo is a city that sustains great architecture,” Dan Gundersen, Empire State Development Corp.’s upstate director, told a gathering in the Martin House.

Others also spoke of how the pavilion would be an exciting addition to the internationally renowned site that celebrates Frank Lloyd Wright’s architectural genius.

“It’s another step forward in bringing the Martin House back to full restoration,” said Richard Geiger, president of the Buffalo Niagara Convention & Visitors Center. “The visitors center will be a very important component of the entire experience.”

Mark Mendell, president of Cannon Design, said in a statement that the building was a “robust, 21st-century achievement of exceptional character in its elegance, refinement, sophistication and great purity.”

“Its simplicity belies the refinement of its structural design — it will, in fact, be a technical tour de force,” said Mendell, who was chairman of the committee overseeing the design of the pavilion and has guided the project from its inception.

The pavilion has been praised for bringing a modern sensibility to Frank Lloyd Wright’s principle of “organic architecture.” But construction had fallen behind schedule, with original plans to open in the summer of 2006. Mori’s winning design, from a 2002 national competition, also had to be scaled back because of a shortage of funds.

The reduction is in lower-level space, which will now be used only for plant operations. Previously planned public functions there, such as an orientation film, have been relocated to the street level, or elsewhere in the complex.

Mori did not attend Wednesday’s ceremony, but told The Buffalo News by phone that she is confident the architectural integrity of the project has been preserved.

“The way we were able to scale it back is really intelligent. From the exterior you don’t see anything, because what we eliminated [concerned] the basement. We really didn’t compromise,” Mori said.

Mary Roberts, the Martin House Restoration Corp.’s executive director, said the board made adjustments to stay within budget without changing the character of the project.

“The basic design of the building has not been compromised, and the board would not have supported something like that if it had been proposed. We’ve always insisted on maintaining the integrity of the original design, and that is what we are going to build,” Roberts said.

The $5 million pavilion — to be known as the Eleanor and Wilson Greatbatch Pavilion — was made possible by a gift of $2.5 million announced in January from the East Hill Foundation to honor the couple.

Buffalo-born Wilson Greatbatch, a lifelong Western New Yorker, developed the implantable, artificial cardiac pacemaker.

Some 27 members of the Greatbatch family, including Wilson and Eleanor Greatbatch, were on hand for the ceremony.

Other major donors to the pavilion include the John R. Oishei Foundation, Empire State Development Corp. and Erie County.

The Martin House complex, designed and built from 1903 to 1905, is the site of the largest and most complete Wright reconstruction in the world.

A previously demolished pergola, conservatory and carriage house were completed in October 2006. The Martin House’s exterior has been restored, and the Barton House and Gardener’s Cottage have been purchased from private ownership.

Remaining work includes refurbishing the house’s interior, including updating mechanical and other systems; restoring or replicating Wright-designed furnishings and art glass; and returning the grounds to its historic landscape.

msommer@buffnews.com

VIDEO: http://video.ap.org/v/Legacy.aspx?g=9970b208-5834-4d6e-99ef-d3c15d058c5c&f=nybue&fg=copy

[Downtown Bolivar]

Wilson Greatbatch is a great man and has given an incredible amount to some local institutions in WNY. Too bad there aren't more like him in WNY, doing the same kind of work, and employing the kind of people. Darwin Martin House is one step closer to becoming a real gem in Buffalo's crown.

On another good note the region is still adding jobs, albeit slowly, but it's going to be slow at the rate our manufacturing jobs are going. Less than 60,000 now employed in manufacturing in Buffalo-Niagara.

[Downtown Bolivar]

Lots of good development news in this article:
http://www.buffalonews.com/145/story/294299.html

Waterfront Village may see new homes
By Sharon Linstedt NEWS BUSINESS REPORTER
Updated: 03/08/08 7:26 AM

Buffalo’s Waterfront Village neighborhood could grow by as many as 30 new residences under a proposal for construction of a new housing development.

Nemo Development LLC has filed plans with the city to build 26 to 30 new units on the “land” side of Lakefront Boulevard, on a 1.3- acre site bounded by LaSalle Park and Lakefront Commons.

The project’s designer, Matt Moscati of Buffalo’s TRM Architects, said the condominiums will be similar in character and scale to existing units at Lakefront Commons.

“Like Lakefront, these will be townhouses, but these will have rooftop terraces,” Moscati said.

The approximately 2,000- square-foot units will be clustered in five or six multi-dwelling structures, to be built in phases starting next summer, pending city approvals. Proposed prices for the townhouses were not available.

The project will get its first airing on Tuesday when preliminary plans are reviewed by the Buffalo Planning Board, followed by a public hearing later this month.

The housing development, which will fill in the last privately-owned property in Waterfront Village, is the brainchild of Barbara and Miro Staroba, who live at Lakefront Commons. The Starobas own Staroba Plastic and Metal, a Holland manufacturing firm. They bought the undeveloped land under the Nemo Development name in January 2007 for $210,000.

The Waterfront Village, located along the Erie Basin Marina, is experiencing a building boom. Buffalo’s Ellicott Development is co nstructing Waterfront Place, a $30 million townhouse/condominium tower complex, at the east end of the neighborhood, adding some 60 new residences.

And three local development groups are vying for the opportunity to fill in the last city-owned residential parcel at the west end, on the “water” side of Lakefront Boulevard.

slinstedt@buffnews.com

[westcoastperspective]

The Lakefront Commons parcel is an interesting site- it hugs the 190 and there are no clear waterfront views. I'm hoping to get renderings from the architects. If they keep them 'affordable'- say under $300k, they could do OK. There are other developments in Waterfront Village that don't have water view that sell for $200-$300k (Breakwaters- the vinyl-sided units).

I have news coming soon about a dead or dormant project being revived. It is a residential conversion.

[Jas]

Paladino's next highrise tower

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jas23/2324137145/

http://flickr.com/photos/jas23/2324137145/

[Sgt. Sabre]

lol

That would be Cimato or Benderson.

[westcoastperspective]

This is really encouraging news- Paladino taking another run at renovating the Greystone. There really isn't any new rental projects being built right now downtown- so his timing could be good.

http://buffalorising.com/story/graystone_renovation_project_i#sca

[westcoastperspective]

www.buffalo-city-tower.com

Wow- slow loading web site. The spire is new. Who knows what is going on with him.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4826/bct3et4.png

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1084/bct1gq3.png

New:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1576/bct2jh8.png

Old:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4798/03zl9.jpg

[steel]

The design is getting better, more refined.

[Downtown Bolivar]

I like the new design too. Does the spire push this thing into the 650-700' range?