BUFFALO | Development Thread [Archive]

Halovet

08-31-2006, 10:06 PM

There is more Warterfront talk going on!

From Buffalo Rising:

Why Senator Schumer's Waterfront Proposal Is Correct

by Steve Siegel
http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives/upload/2006/08/citizens.jpg
Editor's Note: The image used for this post is an alternative plan recently presented by Citizen's Vision for the Lakefront. The group spoke at the BOHW Waterfront Discussion this past saturday. The image is being shown here merely to point out that various groups have different ideas as to how our waterfront should function. This proposal's #1 concern was keeping waterfront land open to the public. It is an image that until Saturday we had never seen. The above proposal is NOT Senator Schumer's waterfront proposal.

The current jousting between the city and the anointed developers of the harbor project is rather frustrating to the many that were energized by the possibility that this project would proceed. But, in retrospect, the current impasse is wholly predictable.

Recent posts and comments have provided some great perspective on the hows and whys of the current situation - and even provided ideas on how to proceed from here. What needs to be discussed is why, from a more holistic perspective, all these large, complex development projects almost always follow the same pattern of: “yes…finally .. thank god, it’s going to happen……oh s@#*, screwed again!

Think of the great looking male “Cade” in high school who dates the rather ordinary looking girl who he knows is lacking in self confidence. About halfway through the date he demands that they take a little drive over to lovers’ lane. The girl, though rather plain looking, is nobody’s fool and declines. The Cade responds that she is lucky to have a suitor the likes of him and that she will never do any better.

The city is the rather plain looking girl and the suitor is Uniland, or Bass Pro, or the Seneca Nation – take your pick.

My point is that from a strategic business point of view, cities that consistently pull off development projects that, to the frustrated residents in the city of Buffalo appear to be development miracles, are always cities that recognize that they need to find developers who need to accomplish the project more than the city needs the project accomplished. In other words the city holds the upper hand and the developer is either an equal partner or the equivalent of an economic “lapdog” that must do as the city demands because this project is a “silver bullet” project to the developer, but merely one more in a series of small, but important projects to the city. Why can Bass Pro, the Seneca Nation and Uniland attempt to continually dictate new terms to the city? It’s because if they don’t get their way, they can walk away and develop elsewhere and probably get a better return on the investment, with less risk.

The cities inability to recognize this reality and find development partners that the city possesses strategic advantages over, is one big reason why we see this same pattern repeating itself over and over again.

I presume that Senator Schumer’s proposal to subdivide the project into many smaller projects is at least in part based upon his acceptance of these realities. It is also why the city should use this impasse as an opportunity to walk away from the deal – this is only the first of many new demands that the developers will make upon the city.

Schumer’s proposal makes sense, and in my mind is the only strategically viable way to proceed at this point.

http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives/2006/08/why_senator_schumers_wate.php

westcoastperspective

09-01-2006, 02:03 AM

Back from Buffalo with a slew of new pics to share over the next few weeks. Here is the progress on New Era HQ's:

Planned:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8489/newera5vmqp4.jpg

Middle of last week:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1990/newera3de9.jpg

Saturday, from Belesario. Steel for atrium/entry started:
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/8587/newera2zc3.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/152/newera1zo0.jpg

BuffaloBill

09-01-2006, 02:52 AM

Any waterfront project needs the removal of the Skyway. That monstrosity needs to go like H-O.

:jester:

steel

09-01-2006, 04:07 AM

wouldn't buffalo development news be a better title? This one reminds me of Bush saying "internets"

westcoastperspective

09-01-2006, 04:54 AM

Granite Works- a block of historic buildings almost demolished, now 29 lofts- as of Sunday, there was only one unleased.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1247/granite2ek4.jpg

http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/2500/granite3wu5.jpg

http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/8922/granite1bt0.jpg

View from the outdoor deck on the roof of the granite building- accessible by two of the units:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6107/granite4nn4.jpg

Rocco's new Ellicott Commons complex, which will have 30 units including four leasing for $3000/month that will have rooftop patios (three of the four are pre-leased):

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/5814/ellicottfp1.jpg

Halovet

09-01-2006, 11:36 AM

Westcoastperspective, thanks for those great pictures. I have not been to B-lo for a while, and those give me sense of what's really going on. Man, is it exciting!:apple: BuffaloBill, Sooner or later, someone at some point, is going to start removing The Skyway. I don't think I will live to see it though. Steel, yes, buffalo development news would have been a better title. Can't please everybody. OH WELL.:2cents:

BuffaloBill

09-01-2006, 02:05 PM

Higgins has tried to secure funding for the removal of the Skyway. I hope he keeps pressing the issue.

Interesting view from the roof of the Granite Works. I see some buildings there that do not look very familiar.

Halovet

09-01-2006, 07:23 PM

New Era is going to be Fabulous. I wonder if there will be a place to buy caps or just offices?

westcoastperspective

09-02-2006, 01:59 AM

There's supposed to be a store/museum in the New Era bldg.

westcoastperspective

09-03-2006, 01:25 PM

Bass Pro wants to tear down the Aud...
Wonder if some in the preservation community are going to object. They should at least save the facade facing the I-190 (Exchange Street?). Get it started already!

westcoastperspective

09-03-2006, 05:29 PM

Rue B

09-03-2006, 11:12 PM

Does anyone have the early rendering of the exterior of the Aud when Bass Pro was proposing a renovation? Rue?

I believe there is a photo with Pataki or Masiello standing in front of a rendering that was up at a press conference.

Here a cross section image that was on the Bass Pro website. They never released an rendering of what the outside of the store would look like

http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=headerimage45ux5.jpg

westcoastperspective

09-04-2006, 01:04 AM

HealthNow pics:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/452/hn1pw6.jpg

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4285/hn2ak9.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/757/hn8pa9.jpg

steel

09-04-2006, 04:50 AM

pretty much beyond bland

Halovet

09-05-2006, 04:49 AM

pretty much beyond blandIt looks like every hospital expantion I ever saw. Three points:

A. It's not an expantion, but the real deal, which brings us back to "bland".

B. Putting this project right in the middle of downtown just sucks.:yuck:

C. What's with that Gotdam Gray Wall? I know it's old, but WTF?

chevy064

09-05-2006, 01:42 PM

Yeah - but it is better than what USED to be there...........

NOTHING

:banana:

WIGS

09-05-2006, 09:27 PM

^I agree... at the very least give them props for cleaning up a hazardous site, and bringing 1300 workers into the CBD.
it may be bland, but I do like the glass wall facing the 190, and it might be good for helping to change people's perceptions of Buffalo. a huge new building = good things are happening.

westcoastperspective

09-05-2006, 09:30 PM

Dulski bidding continues- two serious bidders going head-to-head. Mr. Alphabet in the lead (again):

Amount
Bidder
Bid Date/Time

$4,000,000.00
(ABCDEFGH)
September 5, 2006 14:46:09

$3,750,000.00
(Ithaca)
September 5, 2006 9:47:30

$3,500,000.00
(ABCDEFGH)
September 5, 2006 8:25:56

$3,250,000.00
(Ithaca)
September 1, 2006 13:51:54

_______

More HealthNow pics on Buffalo Rising/City

Halovet

09-05-2006, 10:27 PM

Yeah - but it is better than what USED to be there...........

NOTHING

:banana:I guess. Still, It looks like any average city's expanion and this is supposed to be a HQ. :shrug: May as well be the South Bend Memorial expantion. A nice project, but hardly worthy of downtown development in a mid to large city.

http://media.wsbt.com/images/MemorialExpansion1_WSBT.jpg

Halovet

09-06-2006, 06:19 PM

Wednesday, September 6, 2006

And now the fun part - building Wright's boathouse

Work to begin this month

By TOM BUCKHAM
News Staff Reporter
9/6/2006

Bill Wippert/Buffalo News
Bill Maggio, left, and Ted Marks stand along the shore of the Black Rock Channel near the West Side Rowing Club, where a new boathouse designed by Frank Lloyd Wright will be built.
http://www.buffalonews.com/graphics/2006/09/06/actualsize/0906boathous.jpg

Now for the easy part - actually building Frank Lloyd Wright's boathouse.
A few months behind schedule and $500,000 or so short of its fundraising goal, the nonprofit corporation pushing the revival of Wright's 101-year-old plan for a rowing clubhouse will break ground today on the Black Rock Channel near the West Side Rowing Club.

Serious construction will begin this month, with completion set for next summer.

The $5.4 million facility will serve both as an attraction on Buffalo's "Wright stuff" architectural tourism trail and a functioning boathouse equipped and operated by the rowing club.

Membership in the West Side club, already one of the nation's largest - if not the largest - is expected to rise substantially from the present figure of more than 600, said President William J. Maggio.

Most new members will be students from area schools who have not been exposed to the club's popular rowing programs or else have been unable to sign up because the present clubhouse adjacent to the Wright site is running at capacity.

The club has made a strong commitment to involve Buffalo public high school students, Maggio said. They and others whose schools are not affiliated with the club will be invited to enroll in West Side's high school program, which has 570 members and for years has "had a significant impact on the youth of Western New York," he said.

Designed by Wright for the University of Wisconsin in 1905, the boathouse, will be a 4,500-square-foot pressed-concrete structure with storage bays for racing shells at ground level. A clubhouse adorned with art glass windows will occupy the upper floor.

The groundbreaking follows a series of complicated land deals to secure the site, a five-year fundraising campaign backed by television producer Tom Fontana that drew contributions from many film and TV stars, and the receipt of a $1 million state grant.

"It has been a monumental task to get this far," said Theodore E. Marks, president of the Wright boathouse organization. He is confident the fund drive will reach its goal before the facility opens. Individual West Side Rowing Club members have given generously to the project, Maggio added.

Lehigh Construction Group of Orchard Park will be the general contractor.

e-mail: tbuckham@buffnews.com

westcoastperspective

09-06-2006, 06:39 PM

BURA expected to OK Artvoice deal

Business First of Buffalo

After almost three years of negotiations, it appears that Artvoice is poised to move into downtown Buffalo's Theatre District.

Jamie Moses, Artvoice publisher, through his JM LLC partnership, has crafted a new deal with the Buffalo Urban Renewal Agency that revives his plans to move the business into a portion of the Glenny Building at 667 Main St.

Artvoice, the weekly arts and commentary publication, is currently located in leased space at 810 Main St.

For the past three years, Moses has been working with city officials on taking over 10,000-square-feet of the center and rear portions of the Glenny Building, leaving the front section as a local youth hostel.

Moses said he hopes to have the space renovated and be in the Glenny Building by early spring.

Halovet

09-06-2006, 09:05 PM

westcoastperspective

09-06-2006, 10:20 PM

Now why the hell did this take 3 years. GEEZOPETES!:koko:

The explanation was in the part I deleted. :haha: But three years is awfully long, I'm surprised they didn't walk
______________________
Because of the shift from a single-user to a multi-tenant scenario and because of state and federal restrictions tied into the youth hostel's original financing package and utility packages, a special lease-sale arrangement has been crafted.

Under the terms to be presented to the BURA directors during a Sept. 7 meeting, JM LLC will lease the Glenny Building space, paying $9,780 annually and at the end of the 10-year deal, buy the square footage for $1.

The BURA directors are expected to approve the deal.

JM LLC is also seeking a $500,000 loan from the Buffalo Economic Renaissance Corp. to finance the deal. The BERC officials are also expected to approve that deal later this month.

steel

09-07-2006, 03:00 AM

so is the search function crapped out on this forum too or is it just my computer?

westcoastperspective

09-09-2006, 04:29 AM

News: Dulski bidder wins at $6.1 million, Zepto gets city-owed 878 Main for expansion (below), and AM&As finally sells to the NYC developer planning retail, office and residential. Not a bad week! :cheers:

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8098/878rc8.jpg

Rue B

09-10-2006, 03:06 PM

Old 'Courtyard Mall' site to be renovated

$5.5 million project will put offices, stores apartments on adjacent Main Street properties

By SHARON LINSTEDT
News Staff Reporter
9/10/2006

A pair of long-vacant buildings on the west 400-block of Main Street are coming back to life as an office/residential/retail complex.
Buffalo developers Carl Paladino and Frank McGuire have embarked on a $5.5 million overhaul of the idle Courtyard Mall, at 460 Main St., and the former Baker Shoes building next door at 450 Main St. Phase One of the project is focusing on the 73,000-square-foot Courtyard Mall building and will create two floors of office space and a small first floor retail space, with basement-level parking for 56 vehicles.

The Main and Pearl street facades of the structures will be redone in red brick to match original brick on the Baker building.

Paladino, who has owned the Courtyard Mall since 1995, said market conditions are finally right for the conversion.

"It is a very difficult location on Main Street in a downtown that has been a tough sell," Paladino said. "We're now at a point where market conditions have improved and we're figured out the right tenant mix."

A key driver in the redevelopment is the New York State Department of Parole, which will lease all the office space on the first floor. The parole division has signed a 10-year lease and will move its operations from the Donovan State Office Building by the end of the year. Empty since the late 1980s, the Courtyard Mall building has long been considered an eyesore in the heart of downtown. The longtime home of Neisners department store, its last anchor tenant was a branch of the now-defunct Permanent Savings Bank, along with a lower level food court, game room and some small retail shops.

Paladino acquired the building for $370,000 in mid-1995 from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., which took control of the property in 1990 when Permanent Savings was gobbled up by Key Bank.

But even before the bank's acquisition, the Main Street site was eyed as a potential location for a huge office tower. In 1988, Corporex Cos. of Cleveland came to town proposing a 20-story office/retail complex. That plan went nowhere.

A Philadelphia developer was next in line with a flashy $55 million office tower that incorporated retail shops facing Main Street and several floors of interior parking.

After that proposal fizzled, a number of more esoteric uses were proposed, including a downtown outlet mall. The University at Buffalo Urban Design Group weighed in with an unsuccessful blueprint to convert it to a combination farmer's market, grocery store, day-care center and furniture design gallery.

Buffalo Place Executive Director Michael Schmand said he's heartened to see activity at the long-dormant address. In recent days the building's circa 1970's stucco facade and Courtyard Mall sign have been removed, revealing the old Neisners discount store nameplate.

"The multiuse plan they're working from will fit in well with all the good things that are happening downtown. The mix of office and residential is exactly what the city's Queen City Hub development blueprint called for," Schmand said.

Schmand acknowledged that he's heard some concern about locating the parole office on Main Street, bringing convicted criminals to the business district for required meetings with their parole officers. But the Buffalo Place executive said he's confident the state and the developer will provide adequate security.

"The bottom line is that this is everybody's downtown and these are people who have served their time and repaid their debt to society," Schmand said. "It would be a shame to concentrate on that aspect and let it overshadow the bigger impact of having a key Main Street site brought back to life."

In the second phase of the project, the Baker Shoe building will be redone as upscale, loft-style apartments, similar to Paladino's conversion of the former L.L. Berger department store to the Bellasara apartments in the next block of Main Street.

"We're going to be able to do some really cool things with these because of how the building is situated," Paladino said, noting the building's unusual design that features a one-story structure with a false second floor facing Main Street and an eight-story tower at the rear.

A few of the units will be jumbo, 4,000-square-foot apartments, while a typical dwelling will be approximately 1,200-square-feet, renting for around $1,100 a month. Like the Bellasara, the units will feature open floor plans with up-market kitchen and baths and lots of exposed brick.

A single unit is also planned for the rear of the Courtyard Mall building, overlooking Pearl Street, as part of the residential phase of the project. Build-out of the Baker Shoes site is slated to begin next spring.

http://buffalonews.com/editorial/20060910/1062478.asp

Halovet

09-10-2006, 03:36 PM

westcoastperspective

09-10-2006, 06:14 PM

STERNyc

09-10-2006, 06:23 PM

Any news on the Issa Tower?

Halovet

09-11-2006, 08:58 AM

Any news on the Issa Tower?
Any news on the Issa Tower?This could be a: "Those who know, won't say, and those who say really don't know things. Nevertheless, and this is just an Old Man's hunch, give it about 6 weeks to 2 months. The "few weeks" statement was probably hyperbolae. Perhaps the longer they take, the better the design we will be. Let's just wait and see.

homestar

09-11-2006, 07:43 PM

I still shutter to think what Paladino is planning for the facade of Courtyard and Bakers- rec brick facade? Brick like a Rite Aid? And why two phases- get Baker Shoes and the loft project started already. Wonder what other potential tenants will think of a parole office being there?
I'm also questioning the decision to put a parole office in there. It will be luxury apartments in the historic Main St entertainment / theatre district... it just seems like a parole office will detract from all of that "destination" appeal.

steel

09-11-2006, 09:48 PM

Uniland is taking high rise view pictures from a balloon at the Gates Circle site to market its new highrise condos.

Halovet

09-12-2006, 09:35 AM

Uniland is taking high rise view pictures from a balloon at the Gates Circle site to market its new highrise condos.be nice to see that view.:yes:

shovel_ready

09-13-2006, 04:43 AM

Hey Steel, any word on Issa?

westcoastperspective

09-13-2006, 02:14 PM

Issa who? Uniland/Acquest have a similar mix planned for the Dulski:

http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives/2006/09/hotel_and_residences_for_1.php

Who can move quicker, and is there a market for both?

BANKofMANHATTAN

09-13-2006, 04:07 PM

^ I'd like to see the Dulski replaced with something greater, but a facelift/update to make the building more sleek and appealing along with the renovation may do wonders too. A nice blue-ish glass facade with something interesting atop the structure would seem fitting. I'm interested to see what happens with it. It would be nice to see some infill or new buildings in that area of downtown eventually too.

westcoastperspective

09-13-2006, 05:20 PM

I can't imagine them keeping the facade, would they? Might as well strip it off and start over. Clear glass seems to be all the rage...and add balconies.

How about this?

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/2328/200609millstreet1ny5.jpg

:yes:

steel

09-13-2006, 06:53 PM

The palm trees would be a definate draw

westcoastperspective

09-13-2006, 09:55 PM

Dulski on the Riviera?!?!

BANKofMANHATTAN

09-14-2006, 01:23 AM

speaking of the Dulski project, after it came up i tooled around a little with a picture in PS and did some of my own renovation & facelifting...

unfortunately i didn't have any of my own pictures on hand so i had to fish for one. :sly:

anyways, enjoy.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9616/dulksicv1.jpg

westcoastperspective

09-14-2006, 01:44 AM

Whoa!
Did the new courthouse and New Era mate and give birth to this? :haha:

Nice work though!

What do you think of putting this up on Buffalo Rising to share with a wider audience?

Halovet

09-14-2006, 07:25 PM

shovel_ready

09-15-2006, 07:36 AM

it has fangs!! :hell: :koko: :jester: :shrug:

Halovet

09-15-2006, 11:37 AM

:haha: it has fangs!! :hell: :koko: :jester: :shrug:

westcoastperspective

09-15-2006, 03:27 PM

According to Business First, we're competing with Chicago, Toronto and Long Island for this facility that could be four-stories and 250,000 sq.ft. and 2000 jobs. :fingerscrossed:

Citigroup may put facility in Amherst
By JONATHAN D. EPSTEIN
News Business Reporter
9/15/2006

Citigroup is considering placing a second major back-office facility in Amherst's CrossPoint Business Park, but Western New York is still competing tightly with other parts of the country, local real estate and economic development sources said Thursday.

The nation's largest banking company and parent of Citibank is discussing a proposal to expand its existing corporate and investment banking presence in the region, the sources said. The bank is working with Buffalo Niagara Enterprise and Empire State Development Corp., and talks so far have been positive, but no decisions have been made, they added.

Details of the proposal have also not been finalized, but could involve moving jobs from the New York City area, where real estate and salary costs are significantly higher.

"Whatever they're considering, they haven't chosen a site," said James Allen, executive director of the Amherst Industrial Development Agency, who isn't directly involved but said he was briefed on the project. "They are looking at Amherst and other sites around the country."

Citibank officials could not be reached for comment.

Citibank is opening a new facility in Uniland Development Co.'s
CrossPoint park early next month. The 107,000-square-foot project will house its Global Transaction Services group that is now based on Ridge Lea Road, behind Boulevard Consumer Square in Amherst.

Halovet

09-15-2006, 06:17 PM

Lets keep those fingers crossed!

westcoastperspective

09-16-2006, 02:42 AM

The auditorium turned office space at Oak School Lofts. Vaspian communications is moving in this month- they've grown from two to forty employees in just three years.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1153/oak2az1.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/688/oak1jb4.jpg

:previous: stage to become their conference 'area' :previous:

Halovet

09-16-2006, 11:40 AM

Very nice.

Downtown Bolivar

09-16-2006, 11:43 PM

I don't know why everybody says that the economy is bad here in WNY. It's slow, but it's not bad. From the most recent stats published in the Buffalo News this past week I believe the area has turned a corner. Yes we are continuing to bleed unionized unskilled manufacturing jobs, but now at least there are enough new jobs in other sectors that we are seeing a net gain in private sector jobs each quarter. It may not result in a construction boom downtown, but it is resulting in a lot of renovations and a new interest in downtown. Open your eyes WNY--things are looking up!

Halovet

09-17-2006, 07:56 AM

DallasTexan

09-17-2006, 08:52 AM

Downtown Bolivar

09-18-2006, 01:58 AM

No

I lived in Lexington KY for 3 years--traveled frequently to Nashville and Raleigh, before moving back here. Sorry but I like here--a lot. The economy is just different here that's all and that's not necessarily a bad thing. What I see has WNY's biggest problem, perhaps all of upstate is costs associated with running a small business. Bigger players like HSBC and Citi don't necessarily face the same obstacles a small business has--IDA's will fall all over themselves giving breaks benefits to big projects. What really set the Southeast apart as a whole was the number of small startups happening. It wasn't huge companies--although there were plenty--but tons of small and medium businesses that filled the gaps--that's what WNY doesn't have enough of. However, I still believe the area as a whole has turned a significant corner.

FireMedic

09-18-2006, 01:41 PM

[QUOTE=Sulley]If you travel and/or live outside out of WNY, it's really apparent that it's bad here.

"Ain't that the truth" and things are getting worst everyday.

Downtown Bolivar

09-18-2006, 03:04 PM

After this post I'm done commenting on the state of the economy. Having absurd sprawl around a city does not make for a hot economy--check back in 20 years to places that have been overwhelmed with infrastructure costs.

Back to Buffalo--"Ain't that the truth" and things are getting worst everyday. This is an absurd statement not based on anything that's happening in Buffalo. Last I checked there were a multitude of large and small projects happening around downtown. As for population loss--Buffalo needs to show some guts and dispute the population freefall stats coming from the census bureau. They tried to do the same thing to St. Louis and St. Louis disputed the figures which actually led to a population increase.

steel

09-18-2006, 03:31 PM

[quote=Sulley]If you travel and/or live outside out of WNY, it's really apparent that it's bad here.

"Ain't that the truth" and things are getting worst everyday.

Nice to have you back Fprmer!

WIGS

09-18-2006, 06:57 PM

from the blog AllThingsBuffalo: http://www.allthingsbuffalo.wnymedia.net/?p=280

http://static.flickr.com/93/244145513_cec89f9be6.jpg?v=0
http://static.flickr.com/92/244145537_01d346584a.jpg?v=0

"If you decide to enjoy your lunch from Washington Market on their patio you will be enchated with the sounds of serious construction going on right next to you at the Ellicott Commons.
This part of Downtown has soooo much potential to be a contempoary, young, cool place. Here’s hoping that once the commons are up and running, we’ll see the infamous Genesee block next to it developed."

WIGS

09-18-2006, 07:02 PM

oops double post

WIGS

09-18-2006, 07:02 PM

http://www.allthingsbuffalo.wnymedia.net/?p=279

http://static.flickr.com/98/244145552_d8295a193a.jpg?v=0
above image from AllThingsBuffalo blog
http://www.buffalorising.com/city/archives/upload/2006/03/285_delaware.jpg
above rendering image from BuffaloRising

"Large, inflatable rats can only delay 285 Delaware so long. The mix of unionized and non-unionized workers have put up a couple stories of steel on this 5 story building that will be mostly occupied by M&T."

DallasTexan

09-18-2006, 10:53 PM

[quote=FireMedic]

Nice to have you back Fprmer!

I think he's you - afterall, the grammatical styles are very similar. At least I can spell.

:D

DallasTexan

09-18-2006, 11:21 PM

After this post I'm done commenting on the state of the economy. Having absurd sprawl around a city does not make for a hot economy--check back in 20 years to places that have been overwhelmed with infrastructure costs.

And what do you say to those cities that are rapidly densifying in the core at the same time?

Back to Buffalo--"Ain't that the truth" and things are getting worst everyday. This is an absurd statement not based on anything that's happening in Buffalo. Last I checked there were a multitude of large and small projects happening around downtown. As for population loss--Buffalo needs to show some guts and dispute the population freefall stats coming from the census bureau. They tried to do the same thing to St. Louis and St. Louis disputed the figures which actually led to a population increase.

While I believe Buffalo is much better than it was in the 70s/80s, do you honestly believe that the city is increasing in population when even the metro is declining? That's quite the stretch, IMO.

steel

09-18-2006, 11:27 PM

[quote=steel]

I think he's you - afterall, the grammatical styles are very similar. At least I can spell.

:D

He could be you since both of you confuse fiction with fact.

Downtown Bolivar

09-19-2006, 01:44 AM

I said I was done talking about the economy

By the way it's great to see steel framing around downtown--there's a lot more coming in the near future. Nice updates WIGS.

thestip

09-19-2006, 02:28 AM

[quote=Sulley]

He could be you since both of you confuse fiction with fact.

You know Steel, Sulley just happens to be your favorite jousting partner on SSC. If SSC ever comes back up, check out the Non-development page and look back a few pages to a couple weeks ago when we were discussing vehicles for the winter. It was all started by someone who happened to buy a vehicle on Ebay who happened to have sulley in their Ebay name... ;)

DallasTexan

09-19-2006, 03:24 AM

He could be you since both of you confuse fiction with fact.

What do I confuse? Show me examples.

Come on... showwww. I think I have a much more realistic view of Buffalo than some of the overzealous boosters on here. Methinks BushCo. shared some of their KoolAid with certain Buffalonians ;)

I said I was done talking about the economy

Okay, fine... go on thinking that the cit of Buffalo is increasing in population. While it would be fantastic if that were the case, it's just not happening.

You know Steel, Sulley just happens to be your favorite jousting partner on SSC. If SSC ever comes back up, check out the Non-development page and look back a few pages to a couple weeks ago when we were discussing vehicles for the winter. It was all started by someone who happened to buy a vehicle on Ebay who happened to have sulley in their Ebay name...

He knows... oh, he knows. I just don't mess around at SSP as much. SSC is just too fun though.

:whip:

chevy064

09-19-2006, 01:56 PM

What do I confuse? Show me examples.

Come on... showwww. I think I have a much more realistic view of Buffalo than some of the overzealous boosters on here. Methinks BushCo. shared some of their KoolAid with certain Buffalonians ;)

Okay, fine... go on thinking that the cit of Buffalo is increasing in population. While it would be fantastic if that were the case, it's just not happening.

He knows... oh, he knows. I just don't mess around at SSP as much. SSC is just too fun though.

:whip:

Sulley - while I don't believe that everyone here thinks that Buffalo is a boom town at the moment, I certainly don't find it fair that you must cut people up for posting positive changes and developments occuring in the city. There is so much going on right now that is positive, many people are very happy at the turnaround occuring for the area.

I am sure there are some forums out there that bash Buffalo - maybe you should join one of those boards where people would be interested in hearing what a 3rd rate city you think Buffalo is. - Also, I had asked you this before......"WHY DO YOU EVEN LIVE THERE?"....:shrug:

DallasTexan

09-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Show me where I have cut people down for posting positive developments in the city/metro. I just questioned him on whether he actually believes that Buffalo is gaining population.

Again, show me... and I'll retract what I've said.

Downtown Bolivar

09-19-2006, 05:18 PM

I don't believe I ever once said that Buffalo or WNY in general was booming. Nope I don't think the word boom ever was typed by my fingers. What I did say is that I think Buffalo has turned an important corner--a corner which has nothing to do with most of the politacal maneuvering happing locally or in NYS. It is this--Buffalo is becoming interestering to developers--both local, national and international. People see real opportunities here--that's big, because it provides downtown with the private investment it needs to reinvent itself as the region's hub.

By the way--the Buffalo news mentioned during the last census that Buffalo turned down an offer from a private firm to find more people in the city. Rochester however did use the firm's services and added many people to their final count. In fact census 2000 found that metro Rochester grew from 1990-2000. What if Erie county and Buffalo had more vision at the time to hire this firm. What would population estimates look like? As far as metro Buffalo's population losses--it includes industrial graveyards like Niagara Falls (my hometown), Lackawanna, and others, which cancel growing suburbs like Clarence, OP, and Amherst. When these cities right their ships it will have a huge impact on the Metro's population.

I like this conversation though--it's fun. I'm frustrated by our area's gloomy view of itself and I choose change. Why would I stay here if I hated it?

Downtown Bolivar

09-19-2006, 05:23 PM

:previous: Sulley--you made me break my promise! :P

sullymon54

09-19-2006, 05:27 PM

chevy064

09-19-2006, 06:21 PM

are we getting our sully's mistaken here, i believe you were asking me "Why do i even live here" chevy.

and i happen to agree with a lot of the things downtown is saying, i moved here about five years ago and it seems in there has been more good news in that time span, particularly in the past 2 years than this area has had in a long time. Further more it is time for people to start changing their minds about the city and the region.

I am confused on the Sulley's......:haha:

This is great post! I for one am sick of all the negative bashing of the city. It IS time to turn a new corner and present a more positive image of the area!

steel

09-19-2006, 06:28 PM

As far as metro Buffalo's population losses--it includes industrial graveyards like Niagara Falls (my hometown), Lackawanna, and others, which cancel growing suburbs like Clarence, OP, and Amherst. When these cities right their ships it will have a huge impact on the Metro's population.

I like this conversation though--it's fun. I'm frustrated by our area's gloomy view of itself and I choose change. Why would I stay here if I hated it?

Boli,

Those towns are not growing...they are canibalizing the other municipalities. There is a big difference between real growth and people just moving around within the region. As Amherst et al keep sprawling outward with no controll they also add more and more infrastructure to the area. That infrastructure is payed for by fewer and fewer people and the people in the so calle industrial graveyards are footing the bill.

DallasTexan

09-19-2006, 06:33 PM

It is this--Buffalo is becoming interestering to developers--both local, national and international. People see real opportunities here--that's big, because it provides downtown with the private investment it needs to reinvent itself as the region's hub.

I agree. It's good to have things happening downtown, but IMO, these developers are playing catch-up -- building things that downtown Buffalo has lacked (compared to other cities) for years. I hope the trend continues and we see larger and more prominent developments in the near future.

As far as metro Buffalo's population losses--it includes industrial graveyards like Niagara Falls (my hometown), Lackawanna, and others, which cancel growing suburbs like Clarence, OP, and Amherst. When these cities right their ships it will have a huge impact on the Metro's population.

In all honesty, areas like Clarence and Amherst are growing, but is their growth benefiting the area? What I mean is this -- most of the new residents in these suburbs have relocated from other cities/towns in WNY and there is very little new in-migration. It's like Cheektowaga in the 70s -- while the city was bleeding population, the Cheek was booming. Now people are leaving the older suburbs and thus repeating the cycle. We need people moving in from other areas for real growth.

DallasTexan

09-19-2006, 06:34 PM

Wow, steel and I agree! Well said, jerk.

;)

BTW, I am the real Sulley.

:D

Downtown Bolivar

09-19-2006, 08:06 PM

I disagree somewhat with the idea that our outer-ring suburbs cannibalize the older cities in our region. I'm going to use the example of my parents church congregation in Clarence. There are many there from among the upper middle class who are originally from other areas of the country and are part of the shifting middle management corporate chain. Yes there are others who were originally from the city of Buffalo or whose parents lived in Buffalo. Buffalo's suburbs act as suburbs do in other areas of the country--none of this should be a surprise. What is finally happening is that the city is beginning to understand the need to re-invent itself. My sister, an artist, is moving from Clarence to Allentown--opportunies for her are good there. Sully mentioned this earlier--cities and suburbs can grow together--one need not suffer at the expense of the other. Buffalo needs to accentuate its urban flavor and cultural opportunities. The surburbs will continue to provide a place for large companies to locate back-office operations on sprawling campuses. If companies like both, we need to provide both. I think Geico and possibly Citi benefit the area a great deal.

Secondly, I think people are down on the region because we have fallen from such a high place. Check out those Gilded Age mansions featured on BR (http://www.buffalorising.com/home/archives/2006/09/inside_three_ma.php). Impressive! Buffalo will probably not recover the status it once had 100 years ago, but it can and should be and will be a great city and a great place to live and locate or start a business. We should preserve the past, but we need to learn from it and to a certain exent let it go. We haunt ourselves by looking at pictures from the past, from "the way things used to be," and saying, "what a shame--we used to great." We ought to be asking where the opportunity is and seek to bring history to life, even while reinventing ourselves for the future.

I'm definitely interested in hearing more thoughts...this is a great conversation to have.

steel

09-19-2006, 09:11 PM

I agree. It's good to have things happening downtown, but IMO, these developers are playing catch-up -- building things that downtown Buffalo has lacked (compared to other cities) for years. I hope the trend continues and we see larger and more prominent developments in the near future.

In all honesty, areas like Clarence and Amherst are growing, but is their growth benefiting the area? What I mean is this -- most of the new residents in these suburbs have relocated from other cities/towns in WNY and there is very little new in-migration. It's like Cheektowaga in the 70s -- while the city was bleeding population, the Cheek was booming. Now people are leaving the older suburbs and thus repeating the cycle. We need people moving in from other areas for real growth.

Except for a very few cities in the USA our urban downtowns are all crap holes not much better than Buffalo if at all. Even your beloved B’ham has a crap hole of a downtown and that is the truth. American cities are an embarrassment in the urbanism department.

FireMedic

09-19-2006, 11:42 PM

Sgt. Sabre

09-20-2006, 12:17 AM

You people are funny !
How can you say things are getting better ?
Are you forgeting, HELLO !
Erie County Control Board
City of Buffalo Control Board
Highest taxes in the Country (46 times higher then the nation average)
and theirs already multi million dolllars deficits for 2008 & 2009
population loses speeding Up ! you can see it everwhere
Hospital Closings , Fire Station Closings , Police Station Closings , Church closings & School Closings , on top of
all at the empty buildings from all the business's that went out of business, factorys, retail stores, restaurants, grocery stores. new car dealerships, and even whole strip plazas etc., most of them were in business 2 or 3 years ago.
So here we realize why SSP was >> than SSC. But I must break my silence.

Bpt youir funiere!

So the CPR (Sertified Pubic Retard) lives
Hear as well!
Yea I Enjpy paying 13x my Selery in texas (46 x 30%)

Get a life, deusche. Don't try dragging us all into your misery, it isn't, and won't ever work.:Titanic:

AND LEARN GRAMMAR!!!!!!

So to recap -

Explain how a control board is bad for the county, and how it's done the city so much damage?

Please elaborate on the Police, Fire, and School closings. I haven't heard of any reductions in staff in either. Actually, they remain overbloated, and that is part of the problem. So even in your blind idiocy of a stab-in-the-dark-out-of-envy rant, you accidentally stumble upon a solution. The irony is amazing.

Church closings - How about other cities? I know of some smaller ones going from 6 to 1. 1, that's right. Explain how that's a better situation, using examples from this room.

As for the abandoned grocery stores, where are they? I know of a few, but it's because they were replaced by larger stores. And actually only one is full-time abandoned. If there is one thing that WNY is in no threat of, it's a shortage of grocery stores. Another grossly misinformed and idiotic comment. Same thing with the strip malls. The few dead ones I know of have been dead for a loooooooonnnnnnng time. Sometimes 20-30 years (South Shore in Hamburg, anyone?). But I thought Hamburg, especially southern Hamburg was - growing?!?! There's a noodle-scratcher for ya.

And abandoned car dealers? WHERE?!?!? I WANT TO LIVE THERE!!! Where I live, there are too many opening!!!! Die, Billy Fucillo, Die!

I'll agree, the population is falling. Some might argue it's addition by subtraction (a mathematical phenomenon above your feeble grasp). In fact, maybe the only thing falling faster is your IQ and that of everyone who comes within 3 AU (astronomical units) of you on a daily basis. Make sure you watch your step and don't fall through the hole it just created in the floor in front of you.

Seeing the signs of decline speeding up? Maybe where you live. I see it accelerating too, but in the other direction.

I think you're forgetting that there are just as many positives as negatives to be found. Perhaps nothing more evident than your chronic posting of the same 5 or so tired topics, whereas there has been a relative revolving door of positives in the last 2-3 years. But of course you'd forget, you never knew in the first place as the Good Lord never endowed you with functioning grey matter.

Face it, Buffalo is too real for you, and you just don't want to own up to it. You just weren't smart enough to make it work. Bad for you, good for us. Now to leave you in the dust...goodbye!!! :hi:

Ouch, you got passed by Buffalo. Our first victim.

Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.:lurk:

Aaaaannnyways...

While I was wasting away my afternoon/evening waiting for my oil change, Channel 7 had a good spot on the official ribbon cutting for the Granite Works project. Looks to me to be a massive improvement over even the pre-fire condition.

Ellicott Commons looks good too, work seems to have picked up quite a bit in just the past few weeks. At least noticable exterior work. Ditto New Era and 285 Delaware.

DallasTexan

09-20-2006, 01:24 AM

What do Buffalonians (here, and in real life) mean by the city "being too real?"

Sgt. Sabre

09-20-2006, 01:35 AM

What do Buffalonians (here, and in real life) mean by the city "being too real?"
I don't really know. Maybe because it just doesn't have a "pretty face". It's tough to quantify. Same with the "City of No Illusions" moniker. "We have problems, and we're not about to hide it; deal with it".

Actually the last time I've heard it was in relation to the NY Times article (or it may have been in it). Most times I've heard it, it's actually been out-of-town writers. Maybe they're just using what works, maybe not. I don't know.

steel

09-20-2006, 01:51 AM

I never heard the phrase before

FireMedic

09-20-2006, 01:58 AM

We just disagree on if things are getting better or worst in Buffalo !

Watch for a Major announcement of Mega Entertainment complex with a
Hotel, Restaurants, Amusement Park, Water Slide Park in
Cheek-to-Waga ( I heard a rumor that Senecas are going to build it)

FireMedic

09-20-2006, 02:01 AM

that's a indoor amusement park & water slide park
it's suppose to be announced soon !

Sgt. Sabre

09-20-2006, 02:11 AM

I never heard the phrase before
To be honest, neither had I until a few months ago. Then maybe 10 times since. Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention? I like it, but I tend to like anything that isn't sugar coated. Tell it like it is.

I certainly wouldn't perceive it coming exclusively from the locals at least. Maybe just about everyone I've run into/heard has been way too nihilistic or something, but they wouldn't take it as something to be proud of. Though if anything, I swear alot of them enjoy things the way things are (when I say "things" I mean to imply the bad things), heck, just read some election results for that.

On a different matter, I don't want to get into SSC-esque debates about Boeing, Microsoft, Intel, Berkshire Hathaway, and the global HQ of Joe's Diner all moving into a 300 story tower (with a footprint the size of Delaware Park, no less) to be completed by Donald Trump in Buffalo tomorrow - but did anybody notice this snippet from the News today?

Businesses call for unleashing hydropower's economic power (http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060919/1025340.asp)

International firm is considering expanding here

...

And state Sen. George D. Maziarz, R-Newfane, contends low-cost power could open the door to potentially "billions of dollars" in investment by an international company that he said is considering expanding here.

...

Maziarz would not reveal the company that he said could invest billions here, but he assured the panel it was a household name.

...
:hmmm:

westcoastperspective

09-20-2006, 03:09 AM

Maziarz = Moron

Maybe there is such a prospect, but it sounds like something he's pulling out of his ass in order to get this power allocation thing changed.

WIGS

09-20-2006, 04:31 AM

Buffalo has its fair share (a lot) of problems, but I am an optimist and look at all the good things that are happening, yet one can't forget the problems the city and area have, just don't dwell on them!

sullymon54

09-20-2006, 04:34 AM

On a side note, most people keep complaining about how high the taxes are and i know a lot of it is out of the hands of local governemnt. However i havn't heard a single suggestion of how to lower them on a local level such as using models from the south and west. ie, privitizing municiple services and like sabre said downsizing an overbloated system of local government that is based on an out dated model. And yes i know what everyone is going to say that you'll never get it passed the unions and i'm sure it would take forever but i'm just throwing it out there, any thoughts?

westcoastperspective

09-20-2006, 04:41 AM

Isn't the real problem school taxes and not so much local government? Start consolidating and take on the unions to get their compensation inline with the private sector. And start shrinking government. I just read that public sector jobs increased by 30,000 or something like that in NYS over the last several years? And the ratio of public to private sector jobs is one of the highest in that nation? Why is that happening? :koko:

DallasTexan

09-20-2006, 05:45 AM

homestar

09-20-2006, 06:02 AM

that's a indoor amusement park & water slide park
it's suppose to be announced soon !
Looks like it's going where the old Radisson is. That site has really turned into a mess... But I didn't realize there was enough land there to support all these proposed hotels and waterpark.

From WGRZ:

Plan In Place For New Development Across From The Airport

When people from out of town fly into the Buffalo Niagara International Airport and turn onto Genesee Street, what they see across the street is the first impression they get of Western New York: The run down buildings that were once home to the Radisson Hotel.

But now plans are in place to redevelop that area directly across from the airport.

A plan was submitted by a private developer to the Town of Cheektowaga Code Enforcement Office that calls for the construction of two new restaurants, two hotels, one being a 125-room Courtyard By Marriot, the other a 125-room Fairfield Inn, and even a 4,750 square foot water park connected to that Fairfield Inn.

"The water park aspect of it adds an element that we don’t have in our town," said Cheektowaga Councilman Jeff Swiatek.

There’s room for 559 parking spaces, and the potential to build a third hotel on the site.

Full: http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=41279

westcoastperspective

09-20-2006, 06:07 AM

More Benderson. :yuck:

4750 sq.ft. water park? More like a pool area. :rolleyes:

Downtown Bolivar

09-20-2006, 02:27 PM

I believe that it will be similar to the indoor water park in Erie. Now I know that that may not sound great to many of you in the city, but in the Southern Tier people flock to Erie to shop and take their kids to the water park. That one little park probably supports the business of 3 or 4 hotels. It's so successful at drawing people from our area we're even thinking of building one for ourselves in Belmont/Belvidere off I-86.

Back to Buffalo--we finally got a good looking airport--it seems this project to spruce up the area around is needed--something besides "the jewel of WNY!"

homestar

09-20-2006, 02:33 PM

Owner of ex-Lord Chumley's sells Delaware Ave. row houses
Former restaurant site included in sale

A string of historic row houses on Buffalo's Delaware Avenue, including the site of the former Lord Chumley's restaurant, have been sold for nearly $850,000.

Stillwater Holdings, LLC, has purchased the landmark restaurant, located at 481-483 Delaware Ave., plus the three adjoining row houses. Documents related to the $848,600 sale were filed with the Erie County Clerk's Office. Additional information on the new owner or what the future holds for the once-popular dining spot was not available.

Full: http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060920/1073352.asp

homestar

09-21-2006, 05:22 PM

They've started work on the Burchfield Penny site today. Fencing was removed, trees are down and whole site is dug up...

westcoastperspective

09-25-2006, 07:45 PM

Termini adding to downtown apartment portfolio

Business First of Buffalo

Developer Rocco Termini is moving ahead with plans to increase his downtown Buffalo apartment portfolio by 55 percent and simultaneously find a new home for a fast-growing firm.

Termini, through his Signature Development company, has secured private-sector funding for the conversion of the historic Webb Building on Pearl Street into market-rate upscale apartments. The 130-year-old Webb Building is expected to be home to 32 new apartments and a 14,000-square-foot day care center.

The $10 million project has mostly private funding, though Termini is negotiating a payment-in-lieu-of-taxes incremental financing package through the Erie County Industrial Development Agency. The pilot would be worth about $800,000 in low-interest financing.

Termini said he hopes to begin construction on the apartments by mid-October with the first units ready by September. Termini has the building under contract from fellow developer Carl Paladino. The deal is expected to close just before construction begins.

The Webb Building, once the home of an industrial belt manufacturer, has been vacant for more than 20 years. The six-story building has 60,000 square feet.

Carmina & Wood Architecture has been retained to handle the architectural work.

Termini, next month, will appear before the Community Preservation Corp. loan committee to ask for a $3 million loan to help underwrite his conversion of the circa 1894 former Graystone Hotel on Johnson Park into 33 market-rate apartments. Termini also has the building under contract from Paladino. The conversion is expected to cost $7 million.

Work is expected to start later this winter, Termini said. Carmina & Wood are the architects.

The Graystone, original known as the Berkeley Hotel, has been vacant for more than 10 years, but is considered a downtown historic landmark.

"Both buildings have so much character," Termini said.

With the new buildings, Termini's Signature Development, will have 185 apartments in its downtown portfolio. His other projects include the Ellicott Lofts, the IS Lofts and Oak Street Lofts.

WIGS

09-25-2006, 10:12 PM

more good news! yay!

if only more developers started "coming out of the woodwork"
:tup:

steel

09-26-2006, 04:42 AM

Soon there will be no more derelict buildings downtown. One by one they are being ticked off. Genesee Block has to get some movement soon!

mrussell83

09-26-2006, 01:25 PM

Looking Good!

Do you have addresses for those buildings, I'd like to get some "before" pictures.

westcoastperspective

09-26-2006, 02:57 PM

MR-
Webb is at 90 Pearl, a few doors up from Pearl St. Brewery.
Greystone is on S. Johnson Park between Delaware and S. Elmwood.

mrussell83

09-26-2006, 06:10 PM

Thanks for the info, I'll get to those this week... Did you guys see my Buffalo pics thread? http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=116289
Shots from the top of central terminal toward downtown.

thestip

09-26-2006, 09:59 PM

So I had to be at City Hall today for a meeting with one of the city's 3 community planners and decided that I would go early and sit through the Planning Board meeting. WestCoastPerspective asked if I would check out two of the items on the agenda and get some pics, for which I obliged.

Item #1: Ellicott Development's Waterfront Village Project

Presented today was preliminary site plans for 15 townhomes as part of the Waterfront Village project that Ellicott has prefered developer status for next to Admirals Walk. The townhomes are of a similar design to the Rivermist Townhomes across Ojibwa Dr. from the Ellicott development. They are a little more pedestrian friendly than Rivermist. The Ellicott reps I talked to stated that development has to begin by the end of the year or they lose prefered developer status from BURA. They will start with 4 units, after those are sold, will buildt the next four, to make a continuous 8, when those are sold will build the last 7 all at once. The townhomes are to be between 2200 and 2700 sq. ft. and have either 2 or 3 bedrooms. Each unit will have a small patio which will overlook a small park behind the townhomes. Maintenance on the park will be paid for by the homeowners association. The preliminary plot plans were approved. The condo tower is still being tweaked but they have to present the plans for that to BURA by the end of October, but they probably won't go before the Planning Board until after the 1st of the year.

Item #2: Colvin/Starin Subdivision in North Buffalo

The second item that WC wanted me to look at was the proposed subdivision between Colvin and Starin along the old Rail ROW in North Buffalo. There are 134 proposed lots, although several prospective buyers have indicated they wanted to buy double lots, so there will not be 134 homes built. The NFTA has required that there be a 30' ROW maintained on the north side of the property to allow for the construction of a bikeway and/or future rail extension. The city department of public works is requiring there to be a 66' wide right of way for the street and adjacent sidewalks, which leaves a 79' to 89' lot depth. The typical lot will be 55' wide with the four corner lots being 70' wide. At both ends of the new street low entrance walls are proposed making this a true 'subdivision'. The developer did not have architectural renderings available for the houses, but I would suspect that they will be of a suburban style considering the lot width and depth. I am going to talk to him on Thursday about some more renderings, so I will probably enquire as to the house designs and see if I could at least encourage him to have the garages set back from the front of the houses. I think this one is going to happen considering that the Planning Board approved the preliminary design as well as the fact that I think the site is properly zoned so unless the North Buffalo people that were opposed to the Natale proposal come out in force to oppose this, I think it will go through.

Some pics from both proposals:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thestip/sets/72157594301041189/

Both developments will be presented at a public hearing in front of the Planning Board on October 10th.