[TbayON]

Okay yea the warranty part makes perfect sense. The parking lot deal there rings a bell now too. I guess the developers want the city to front the cost of a new parking lot there, then the developer will lease it back from the city and pay for it over time. In the grand scheme of things, you wouldn't think of building a parking lot as being an overly huge cost considering you are putting up three multi-storey buildings and the developer would just pay for the lot up front but I guess there is more involved that I can't see from the outside looking in. This is going to be good... can't wait to tell all those nay-sayers out there to shove it when the shovels hit the ground soon!

[F. Lionel]

This is going to be good... can't wait to tell all those nay-sayers out there to shove it when the shovels hit the ground soon!

Don't get ahead of yourself - That's when they'll starting singing about how we've made this a private park for the condo owners.

The nay-sayers and cryers in this city will hold on to this for a long time - The hospital, Victoriaville, single-source water... They are still complaining about the creation of the single city out of two and that was over 40 years ago! Who cares if it makes money or was the right decision or whatever - "If I don't agree with it then it just isn't right and I don't care what your silly numbers and diagrams show because you're wrong."

[TbayON]

A number of developments at NWO's Resolute Forest Product operations is going to lead to quite a few new jobs in the near future. We already knew about most of them, but the Thunder Bay general manager of the company's operation added them up the other day:

-90 new jobs when the Ignace Sawmill re-opens at the mill alone, in addition to new positions in woodlands operations. Many woodlands operations (believe it or not, even with the market for forest products still being down) are having a difficult time finding skilled labour to work and trucks to move raw wood products to the mill.
-A number of new jobs are supposed to be created at the local sawmill, although a total number wasn't given. Other recent announcements indicated 50 jobs at the sawmill, 100 jobs in woodlands and 150 other indirect jobs as a result.
-A number of jobs are to be created at the pulp mill when their condensing turbine project is complete this fall, although a number wasn't given again. Looking at recent announcements again, 12 jobs are supposed to be involved in running the turbine along with 35 in the forest.
-80 other jobs are supposed to be created as a result of $100 million in other investments between now and 2017 in NWO
-Total direct new jobs are supposed to be about 300 from the above projects

In addition, the pulp mill needs to replace about 80% of their workforce due to retirements in the coming 3-4 years. I had heard a couple years ago they were looking at bringing on hundreds of new workers because of upcoming retirements, and it now seems to be coming true.

Council is to vote on the proposed changes to the agreement with the waterfront developer.

[vid]

Council is also discussing the new transit master plan tonight. Apparently it won't come into effect for another three years.

[TbayON]

Three years surprised me for a second... until I thought about it. It will probably be 3 years time before any construction were to start on the new multiplex. If the multiplex is going downtown, that is going to effect transit since they are going to lose their other long time terminal. There will also be a greater need for transit services, especially during large events at the centre. If its going in Innova (god forbid that happen) transit services will need improving there. Maybe that is why the process will take 3 years.

[vid]

Well the plan they came up with could easily be modified to fit any of the three plans. I think the real difficulty will be finding the location for the Intercity hub. Currently, there is no way that the plan could work because the city doesn't own a site in the Intercity area that could accommodate it.

They are talking about lengthening off-peak frequencies to 45 minutes. While that sounds bad at first (buses being less frequent), it actually makes sense because for the past two years or so, buses have not been able to actually meet timing points because of passenger load on the 40 minute schedule. The new route map they're showing at city hall (watching online) is a bit different than the ones we've seen before, and it includes the rural routes.

[TbayON]

Well that kind of throws a monkey wrench into the plan if there is no location available for their proposed new hub. Is the central maintenance facility on Fort William Rd. not suitable. I could see getting buses in and out of there being a pain in the ass due to traffic and not a lot of traffic control on that road, but is there not sufficient room on that property? It is very close to the existing North-core terminal though I suppose.

I have no idea where you would put it either.

[vid]

There are lots of locations, the city just has to figure out which one is best and buy it.

The area at Central Maintenance is too out of the way from other destinations for a terminal to work. It has to be as close to the mall as possible. The former Sears auto shop lot would be the best option.

When you're discussing transit, the term "very close" must be used from the perspective of a walker, not a driver. Yes, Central Maintenance is only a two or three minute drive from downtown, but if you're walking, it's almost two miles and it is about an hour walk along one of the city's busiest streets. It takes about 10 minutes to walk to Walmart and 20 minutes to walk to the mall or Superstore. That isn't "very close", that's "the maximum extent of what a walker will tolerate".

[ccnews]

one of the locations that is being talked about for the central bus terminal is the Labour Centre building/land.

My union, along with three others, moved out of their offices to a new location because we had heard the centre was up for sale

in other news

Northern Credit Union had their BAM (Branch Annual Meeting) last week, the Red River Road location is staying put, for this year, a new location is "on the books" for next year :tup: - word from the VP of Finance though is that the old Rogers building - which I mentioned before, is too big

Purolator is still talking about expanding/renovating/moving, a office trailer (to be used for the managers) is arriving next week, they are renovating the interior of the front office

[F. Lionel]

The former Sears auto shop lot would be the best option.


Redcliff (mall owners) have made it very clear to the city that they would be more than happy to sell the lot in order to construct a new transit terminal. If the city were to aquire the former CanOp lot right next door then there should be more than enough land to build a proper transit terminal. I think the current size of the auto shop lot is a tad on the small side.

one of the locations that is being talked about for the central bus terminal is the Labour Centre building/land.
My union, along with three others, moved out of their offices to a new location because we had heard the centre was up for sale


I've also heard that there is a hotelier interested in the Labour Centre building and land. :rolleyes: That rumour has been around for a few years now though. I wonder where the ANF will move if the labour centre is removed?
Has anyone said anything about Canadian Tire's proposed expansion? I thought that was approved by council a long time ago and then nothing ever happened.

Purolator is still talking about expanding/renovating/moving, a office trailer (to be used for the managers) is arriving next week, they are renovating the interior of the front office

Is this their office on Main street or the operations at the airport? Personally I wish they'd move their whole operation out to the airport and then, maybe, Arnone or Praxair could relocate to the harbour and away from Water St. I know that there is tonnes of land ready to be developed at the Harbour Business Park but this is already cleared and ready to go - no developing needed for a relocation.

[TbayON]

I've also heard that there is a hotelier interested in the Labour Centre building and land. :rolleyes: That rumour has been around for a few years now though. I wonder where the ANF will move if the labour centre is removed?
Has anyone said anything about Canadian Tire's proposed expansion? I thought that was approved by council a long time ago and then nothing ever happened.

The land the labour centre is sitting on has got to be worth quite a lot I would think. Its probably only a matter of time before there is an offer for that land that the centre can't refuse, or the labour centre picks up shop and moves elsewhere in the city and sells the lot. That building really doesn't fit in anymore in the intercity area and is probably worth nothing on that site. They must also pay huge taxes there so one would think between the sale of the land and savings on taxes they could find themselves another suitable location in the city should they want to continue operating. I know that large office space is in short supply here though so it is not that easy of a task.

I also seem to remember Canadian Tire's expansion being approved then all went quiet on that front. No idea what happened there, or if I did know, its too long ago now to remember.

Is this their office on Main street or the operations at the airport? Personally I wish they'd move their whole operation out to the airport and then, maybe, Arnone or Praxair could relocate to the harbour and away from Water St. I know that there is tonnes of land ready to be developed at the Harbour Business Park but this is already cleared and ready to go - no developing needed for a relocation.

I can't believe Arnones is able to operate out of that dump of a terminal on Water St. The building is the size of a small house. Praxair has a modern facility at least, and additional assets on site (exterior tanks etc.) that would make it harder for them to move.

Another one to watch in the future is Courtesy Freight on Simpson. I have been in their warehouse several times and its always packed with stuff and there is barely room for additional trucks to park and unload anywhere. I think their facility can do for now, but they are a quickly expanding company. It may do them better to move towards the harbour for access reasons in the very least. Its much easier to get semi's into the harbour than down Simpson St.

Too bad Northern CU is waiting another year to get a new north side location. They need to get out of that little building they are in now on Red River Rd. if they want to expand their customer base on the north side of town. At least they are very much interested in making a move in the near future though. Speaking of north side, there is supposedly a business moving into the old Robins (I think that's what is was???) by the TD Bank in the County Fair Mall parking lot near by where the old Beaver Lumber was.

[vid]

As much as I would like to see Courtesy relocated (I live beside them, in the building that was assaulted last night by a drunk driver), I don't want to live beside a large, abandoned warehouse. They've been investing a fair bit of money into the building in the past couple years so I don't think they're moving any time soon. There are a lot of warehouse and businesses on Simpson that depend on transport trucks, so they sort of fit in. Removing those businesses to another part of the city would basically eliminate the employment base on this street. Few people realize how many people work along Simpson Street.

The area around John and Water does need to be improved, once it is connected to the waterfront it will be a prime location. Opportunity Thunder Bay wants to turn the area into a business park with high rise offices.

[TbayON]

I don't think Courtesy would relocate their entire operation and I realize the money they have invested into that facility recently. I just think if they are going to continue to grow, they will need some yard space. They are starting to handle more project type cargo for industrial customers and their current yard doesn't really work too well for that purpose. The Simpson St. warehouse is perfect for their fleet of cube trucks and flatbeds and for local operations, so I wouldn't be worried at all about it closing/moving away from there.

Its too bad the buildings that the office buildings went up along Balmoral didn't go around John and Water. I guess its all in hindsight now, but Opportunity Thunder Bay would have been closer to their goal. Instead, we have a mess of an Arnone yard and some other un-kept properties adorning Water St. I would like to see that area cleaned up as well. Not sure what it would take to get some of those businesses to move though.

[ccnews]

Is this their office on Main street or the operations at the airport? Personally I wish they'd move their whole operation out to the airport......

Purolator doesn't have any buildings at the airport, our trucks go there, in the mornings, pick up the freight and bring everything back to the Main street building, and do the reverse in the evening
currently the Purolator plane has Purolator, Canada Post, UPS, ICS Courier, and one other company's freight on it - it goes to Winnipeg every night and returns the next morning


I've posted awhile back that Purolator is looking to expand its warehouse, both the airport and Port Authority are "fighting" for that warehouse :sly:

[F. Lionel]

I've posted awhile back that Purolator is looking to expand its warehouse, both the airport and Port Authority are "fighting" for that warehouse :sly:

Sorry. I missed that one. Personally, I hope that the airport wins this fight.

As much as I would like to see Courtesy relocated (I live beside them, in the building that was assaulted last night by a drunk driver), I don't want to live beside a large, abandoned warehouse. They've been investing a fair bit of money into the building in the past couple years so I don't think they're moving any time soon. There are a lot of warehouse and businesses on Simpson that depend on transport trucks, so they sort of fit in. Removing those businesses to another part of the city would basically eliminate the employment base on this street. Few people realize how many people work along Simpson Street.

The area around John and Water does need to be improved, once it is connected to the waterfront it will be a prime location. Opportunity Thunder Bay wants to turn the area into a business park with high rise offices.

I remember way back in the late 80s/early 90s when the original Simpson Street streetscaping was being planned that they had hoped to move the shipping firm out of that warehouse (I forget who it was at the time) and redevelop that building into a Farmer's Market. That could still be a viable use - and a popular one - in this day and age.
Thinking back: That was such an awesome streetscaping plan. They plan to close off every second sidestreet and turn the stumps into small parking areas in order to eliminate on-street parking, pave the backlanes and make them one-way in order to facilitate the movement of traffic. Only Charry's Corner reconstruction and the Lightposts actually made it. Too bad.

Not sure what it would take to get some of those businesses to move though.

When it comes time to building the John Street Overpass I think a lot of lots on South Court are going to suddenly be going up for sale. Arnone will move when the price is right - it's a matter of who will pay them the most. Praxair and Medi-Gas would move for the right price too. I could see Wanson Lumber and Bill Martin's selling their lots too. I could see a few 6 to 8 story condos going into the area - not so many office complexes.

[vid]

Courtesy has been there since the street was rebuilt, the trucks were pink at the time though. I remember because we would go down Cameron from Balmoral to get to my aunts apartment between Pruden and Finlayson. They might have moved in shortly before the construction though?

I remember when the trees were small. The one across the street from me is about one year away from being taller than the building behind it. With our luck the city will probably rip them out in a few years and we'll be back to square one. :(

[vid]

Got a closer look at the TB Bank sign at Memorial and Harbour. The office space will be the former Swiss Chalet, and the current TD Bank will become a parking lot.

[F. Lionel]

Got a closer look at the TB Bank sign at Memorial and Harbour. The office space will be the former Swiss Chalet, and the current TD Bank will become a parking lot.

Took a closer look at the sign myself - it specifies retail space and not offices. With the lack of definitive major retail expansion around the city I suspect a few more places along Memorial and Fort William Road will be redeveloped for retail space.

Courtesy has been there since the street was rebuilt, the trucks were pink at the time though. I remember because we would go down Cameron from Balmoral to get to my aunts apartment between Pruden and Finlayson. They might have moved in shortly before the construction though?

Wow - I completely forgot about Courtesy once being decked out in pink. You are completely right about them being there at that time and were probably there for a lot longer than that. Courtesy is handling a the local freight for ATS which has proven to be very lucrative for them which is why they have been able to make the changes/improvements to the building that they have.

Drove past the new condos being built up in Current River last night but didn't have my camera. Going to try and get back over there in the next few days and snap a pic.

[TbayON]

Drove past the new OPP stations in Dryden and Kenora on my way to Winnipeg (out to visit family for the weekend) and they are closed in and work is going on inside both of them. Looks as though they will probably both be done by this spring or early summer. Jones is building the new Dryden detachment, didn't see who is building the Kenora detachment.

[vid]

Courthouse:

http://i.imgur.com/5nkEw.jpg

North entrance to Victoriaville; with a bit of landscaping work, this could become a very nice place.

http://i.imgur.com/wukuf.jpg

DSSAB:

http://i.imgur.com/yb1zE.jpg

Former Swiss Chalet building:

http://i.imgur.com/KecNO.jpg

It would be nice if it actually turns out like this. I took that photo while on the bus which is why its a weird angle.

http://waremalcomb.com/

[TbayON]

That rendering for the former Swiss Chalet location seems to suggest that Hortons will be getting a significant face-lift as well (thankfully, it would look awful to fix up the one side and leave the other side as is). It also seems to suggest there will be at least 2 units, as long as one tenant doesn't require the whole thing I guess.

When it comes time to building the John Street Overpass I think a lot of lots on South Court are going to suddenly be going up for sale. Arnone will move when the price is right - it's a matter of who will pay them the most. Praxair and Medi-Gas would move for the right price too. I could see Wanson Lumber and Bill Martin's selling their lots too. I could see a few 6 to 8 story condos going into the area - not so many office complexes.

I think in the nearer future, the kind of condo development you are talking about is being more seriously considered in the Boulevard Lake area and in the immediate core areas. It is all dependent on when that overpass goes in I guess (whenever that is). I would think the area encompassing Tupper St, Villa St. and Camelot St. that Vid pointed out a while back that is occupied by single houses and in need of re-development would be much better for condo development than that part of John St. The current overpass for Marina Park is already right there, parts of the area back onto the creek and there are more amenities and greater neighbourhood effects associated with developing that spot. Just a personal opinion, and it would take more effort to acquire large enough lots for condo buildings I suppose than at John St. I guess it also depends on how far into the future we are looking here.

Took a closer look at the sign myself - it specifies retail space and not offices. With the lack of definitive major retail expansion around the city I suspect a few more places along Memorial and Fort William Road will be redeveloped for retail space.

We are already seeing this redevelopment happen quite a bit. A few examples I can think of: East Side Mario's turning into Nortec (I suspect all the old buildings between Kelsey's and where Nortec is now will be torn down in the near future), addition of Shopper's to both ends of Memorial Ave and the accompanying developments at the one on the North end of it, redevelopment of the old Roxy's, new TD Bank, Power Centre building reno, addition of some dentist offices and reno's of some other buildings along the route. I think its partly a product of the strip mall/smaller attached units finally filling up in the Thunder Centre and that the existing buildings along Memorial came to an age where they either needed to be redone or the businesses move to a more modern facility and leave the old building empty. It seems the renovation and re-purposing of existing buildings is proving to be the more common choice.

We aren't seeing it as much along Fort William Rd., it is a quite different beast than Memorial Ave if you think about it. Nothing much really fronts onto Fort William other than Leon's, the transit facility, St. John's ambulance, the Arnone yard and a couple other buildings once you get north of the floodway.

[vid]

Fort William is a higher capacity road. Memorial is primarily for local access.

[F. Lionel]

We are already seeing this redevelopment happen quite a bit. A few examples I can think of: East Side Mario's turning into Nortec (I suspect all the old buildings between Kelsey's and where Nortec is now will be torn down in the near future), addition of Shopper's to both ends of Memorial Ave and the accompanying developments at the one on the North end of it, redevelopment of the old Roxy's, new TD Bank, Power Centre building reno, addition of some dentist offices and reno's of some other buildings along the route. I think its partly a product of the strip mall/smaller attached units finally filling up in the Thunder Centre and that the existing buildings along Memorial came to an age where they either needed to be redone or the businesses move to a more modern facility and leave the old building empty. It seems the renovation and re-purposing of existing buildings is proving to be the more common choice.

The largest lots that remain undeveloped (interestingly enough) are the two empty lots directly across from Tim Horton's and the former Al's Wonderland.
Admittedly the two lots together are newly cleared something may yet take place there but I find it interesting that even when it was offered for development there were no real takers. Of course... that was a few years ago.

It would also be really nice to see Centerfolds relocate away from Memorial Ave.

We aren't seeing it as much along Fort William Rd., it is a quite different beast than Memorial Ave if you think about it. Nothing much really fronts onto Fort William other than Leon's, the transit facility, St. John's ambulance, the Arnone yard and a couple other buildings once you get north of the floodway.

Fort William is a higher capacity road. Memorial is primarily for local access.

Fort William Rd is the higher capacity road but I thought that Memorial saw more traffic on a daily basis? There aren't too many lots of substantial size along Fort William Rd. that could yet be developed except the empty corner by Leon's and the triangular lot at the floodway.

[ccnews]

the triangular lot at the floodway. is owned by the Lakehead Regional Conservation Authority
at one time they wanted to build their new and expanded offices at that location - not sure if its still on the books

here is the link to that article - http://www.lakeheadca.com/graphics/New%20Building.pdf

[vid]

The plan is on hold because it was costly and not very necessary.

Fort William Road between Intercity and John Street has more traffic than the part of Memorial running parallel to it, it simply appears less busy because traffic moves more efficiently thanks to the lack of parking lot entrances every 80 feet. Most people on Fort William are either going to the mall, or going from the north end to the south end of the city. Most people on Memorial are going to a business on Memorial. To access that business, they have to turn, and turning left slows traffic. Few people on Fort William Road turn left, so traffic flows better.

According to a city Traffic Volume map that I download years ago (before the new site; I can't find it anymore), here are the traffic numbers for those roads:

North of Harbour:
Memorial: 26,000 (2004)
Fort William Road: 28,088 (2004)

South of Central
Mem: 26,621 (2002)
FWR: 31,313 (2004)

North of Central
Mem: 30,308 (2002)
FWR: 34,858 (2004)

Memorial has less than 19,000 AADT south of Queen, while Water has over 22,000 just south of Cumberland. Thinking about what each street looks like, that is the difference between an isolated four lane road and a five lane road with many businesses fronting it. Fort William could easily handle another 10,000 cars a day, while Memorial is grid-locked in the Intercity area during evening rush hour. I've seen a few occasions where Memorial's intersection with Harbour is backed up to Central, and where the intersection with Central is backed up to the Superstore gas bar.

For general information, the busiest roadway in the city is Balmoral south of Harbour, with 38,644. Second is north of that same intersection, with 37,865 on Balmoral. Balmoral seems even less busy than Fort William, so that is what a four lane road with no accesses at all functions like. Harbour on both sides also tops 30,000, so about 65,000 people were using that intersection in 2004. It's probably higher now. Fort William Road north of Central is the third busy piece of road in the city. The busiest part of Memorial is in 6th spot.

In 2002, over 8,500 vehicles used the James Street Swing Bridge daily.

[TbayON]

The largest lots that remain undeveloped (interestingly enough) are the two empty lots directly across from Tim Horton's and the former Al's Wonderland.
Admittedly the two lots together are newly cleared something may yet take place there but I find it interesting that even when it was offered for development there were no real takers. Of course... that was a few years ago.

They will be developed eventually, but nothing major will be built since access will be an issue. There is no way the city would put in any kind of intersection so motorists could easily turn left into those lots. It would be too close to the Harbour Expressway and cause further traffic problems along that stretch. I would expect to see some smaller business go there, or possibly yet another strip mall.

While on the topic of empty lots, I had thought there was a union office going in where private eye's used to be at High St. and Memorial. I haven't heard much about that in some time now. Aside from a vendor selling fruit on the property during the summer on certain days, very little has gone on there.

the triangular lot at the floodway. is owned by the Lakehead Regional Conservation Authority
at one time they wanted to build their new and expanded offices at that location - not sure if its still on the books

In addition to what Vid said, the LRCA didn't get $1 million from the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund they applied for and didn't want to go ahead with the building without all the money in place. At the time they considered a new building, they had to choose between renovating their old location on Golf Links and putting up a new building. There were some repairs that needed to be done in order for the authority to remain in the old building. When they didn't get the funding, they went ahead and renovated the old building so it sounds like they will be there for a while yet.

In 2002, over 8,500 vehicles used the James Street Swing Bridge daily.

It would be interesting to see where the numbers are at now. There has been quite a lot of change since 2002 with the closing of the paper mill and the opening of the Resolute sawmill and changes that have gone on there. Also, Fort William FN continues to grow and now we have likely hundreds if not thousands of people per day going over there for cheaper gas and cigarettes.

A developer that tried to build a condo on Mountain Rd in 2002 has brought back a proposal for the same land. This time he is proposing a 25-lot subdivision with detached homes instead. The Health Unit is concerned since the lots will only be "partially serviced". The 2002 proposal fell through when city council voted against it due to complaints from neighbours about everything from traffic to environmental concerns. The land is just east of the Fort William Country Club.

[vid]

While on the topic of empty lots, I had thought there was a union office going in where private eye's used to be at High St. and Memorial. I haven't heard much about that in some time now. Aside from a vendor selling fruit on the property during the summer on certain days, very little has gone on there.

The land is owned by OPSEU. At the time the project was announced, they stated that they wouldn't be developing the land for a few years. They don't need the space immediately and are more focused on other things at the moment.

A developer that tried to build a condo on Mountain Rd in 2002 has brought back a proposal for the same land. This time he is proposing a 25-lot subdivision with detached homes instead. The Health Unit is concerned since the lots will only be "partially serviced". The 2002 proposal fell through when city council voted against it due to complaints from neighbours about everything from traffic to environmental concerns. The land is just east of the Fort William Country Club.

Hopefully it gets cancelled again. We don't need any more sprawl down there.

I'm also pretty sure that South Neebing is where the men buying the prostitutes are coming from. No one in this neighbourhood drives Landrovers or Lincolns! Less of them means less hookers.

[tjernobyl]

In addition to what Vid said, the LRCA didn't get $1 million from the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund they applied for and didn't want to go ahead with the building without all the money in place. At the time they considered a new building, they had to choose between renovating their old location on Golf Links and putting up a new building. There were some repairs that needed to be done in order for the authority to remain in the old building. When they didn't get the funding, they went ahead and renovated the old building so it sounds like they will be there for a while yet.

They now have city water and sewer rather than relying on a well and septic field.

A developer that tried to build a condo on Mountain Rd in 2002 has brought back a proposal for the same land. This time he is proposing a 25-lot subdivision with detached homes instead. The Health Unit is concerned since the lots will only be "partially serviced". The 2002 proposal fell through when city council voted against it due to complaints from neighbours about everything from traffic to environmental concerns. The land is just east of the Fort William Country Club.

It's important to note that the original proposal was a 'vacant land condominium', which usually means gated community. I don't see much difference here, except that the road will be now public rather than private. Partial servicing in this case means that they have city water and storm sewers, but no sanitary sewers.

The land is owned by OPSEU. At the time the project was announced, they stated that they wouldn't be developing the land for a few years. They don't need the space immediately and are more focused on other things at the moment.

When the land was rezoned, the amendment specifically added 'medical clinic' as a possible use. I wonder if they may be waiting for a tenant on a larger, combined structure.

I did talk to the former owners when they were doing the demolition; they said that one of the terms of the sale was that the new owners got the stripper pole with the property. So, at least one architectural feature of the former structure will be retained.

[vid]

I did talk to the former owners when they were doing the demolition; they said that one of the terms of the sale was that the new owners got the stripper pole with the property. So, at least one architectural feature of the former structure will be retained.

Important things are important.

[TbayON]

Hopefully it gets cancelled again. We don't need any more sprawl down there.

While I can understand where you are coming from, most of the infrastructure is already in place nearby in terms of a waterline and main road. All that is really needed is a new street and a couple connections to existing services. Now that Mountain Rd. exists, does it not make more sense to build up as much as you can to better pay for and utilize what infrastructure was put out there?

There is a lot more development coming to Mount Forest Estates as well as behind Nor'wester View School in the near future, so it seems there will be more sprawl in the area. In a market-type economy, supply and demand rules. And there is a lot of demand for lots in that area so sooner or later, someone is going to supply it. I agree that suburban sprawl makes it difficult for cities to upkeep their infrastructure, but it seems to continue nonetheless.

[vid]

While I can understand where you are coming from, most of the infrastructure is already in place nearby in terms of a waterline and main road.

But it wasn't in place before. People complain about the city spending so much for the waterfront development but don't even notice when the city spends just as much for things like this.

Spreading out does nothing to bring in tax revenue because supporting the infrastructure for it is too costly. If people want their taxes to go down, they have to start supporting the developments that actually contribute significantly toward the tax base. Developments like this don't do that. The amount of tax revenue per acre of land in South Neebing is actually less than the amount of tax revenue per acre of land in the Simpson-Ogden area.

[TbayON]

No it wasn't there before and if we didn't want it there we needed to have this debate a long time ago. Now, its too late. My point is only that since its already there and we can't change that, we might as well fill every lot along those roads to recoup whatever we can get.

These types of developments really put the city in a tight spot. The city wants to be seen as development friendly and encourage new home starts and a lot of people desire to live in these types of developments. When the city first rejected Nadin's proposal for the Maplewood Estate development, they took a lot of flak for that. Now it has gone ahead, and sold right out. The majority of people in society have no idea what these developments mean in terms of infrastructure costs and issues and if the city starts rejecting all new subdivisions nearer to city limits, well, you know what the response will be I don't think I need to go there. It seems no matter what the city does or decides, they won't win in the end. And neither will the tax-payer, but the tax-payer is not educated enough to realize this fact on most occasions.

[F. Lionel]

For general information, the busiest roadway in the city is Balmoral south of Harbour, with 38,644. Second is north of that same intersection, with 37,865 on Balmoral. Balmoral seems even less busy than Fort William, so that is what a four lane road with no accesses at all functions like. Harbour on both sides also tops 30,000, so about 65,000 people were using that intersection in 2004. It's probably higher now. Fort William Road north of Central is the third busy piece of road in the city. The busiest part of Memorial is in 6th spot.

Eventually the plan is to build an overpass on the Harbour Expressway here and the higher traffic volumes that the next 6-7 years will bring will feed the argument to get it built.
I wonder if the expansion of Golf Links Road will reduce the traffic levels on Balmoral?
I also think that the city should take additional steps to further reduce access to Fort William Road - close First, Second, and Sixth. Put a right turn lane on Lisgar and remove left turns from Fort William at Water. The city should also remove access to water at Wilson, Lincoln, and Villa.

There is a lot more development coming to Mount Forest Estates as well as behind Nor'wester View School in the near future, so it seems there will be more sprawl in the area. In a market-type economy, supply and demand rules. And there is a lot of demand for lots in that area so sooner or later, someone is going to supply it. I agree that suburban sprawl makes it difficult for cities to upkeep their infrastructure, but it seems to continue nonetheless.

Until someone buys up and redevelops tracts of the East End we will be stuck with the continued sprawl of the city south into Neebing and west into McIntyre. There are some significant places within the established city that can yet be developed or redeveloped such as the area between Golf Links and the Expressway, the tracts along S Court and S Syndicate, Riverside/Oceanview, and the areas between Huron and the Expressway.

One of my biggest pet peeves are people who complain about Urban Sprawl and talk about River Terrace as the prime example of it locally.

[TbayON]

Until someone buys up and redevelops tracts of the East End we will be stuck with the continued sprawl of the city south into Neebing and west into McIntyre.

I am surprised that isn't happening yet. I think if there continues to be a lack of housing on the market, as there is right now, we will see more of that. Right now, any young people and first time buyers in the market are really starting to get limited to areas such as the east end for buying houses since prices continue to go up and there isn't much availability (creating bidding wars). That being said, many of those houses need ALOT of work and there is substantial cost associated with that. Reno's would probably involve new plumbing and electrical in addition to facelifts and probably foundation work on those houses. To buy up the land, tear everything down, re-service and rebuild new homes is far too costly for developers compared to building in a new subdivision. There are houses there that have been upgraded throughout the years though.

There is also risk associated with displacing lower income earners, and without an adequate supply of affordable housing in the city, you could create some real problems.

One of my biggest pet peeves are people who complain about Urban Sprawl and talk about River Terrace as the prime example of it locally.

I would consider anything sandwiched between the T-Bay Expressway and the lake to not constitute urban sprawl. People just consider River Terrace urban sprawl because they focus on the age of the development. It doesn't really come down to age when defining urban sprawl, its location.

There are tenders out right now from the Lakehead Public School Board for "renovations and additions" at Woodcrest and Hyde Park schools. I am guessing that means some sort of addition for Woodcrest and some renovations at Hyde Park.

There is also a tender out from the city for the reconstruction or the 4 roads surrounding the new courthouse. In addition to resurfacing, new services, new sidewalks and some other things, streetscaping is included in the project.

[F. Lionel]

I would consider anything sandwiched between the T-Bay Expressway and the lake to not constitute urban sprawl. People just consider River Terrace urban sprawl because they focus on the age of the development. It doesn't really come down to age when defining urban sprawl, its location.

Everything built within the Harbour Expressway is rightly considered to be "In-fill" and not "Sprawl". I would make the suggestion that everything within the future Northwest Arterial Road would also be in-fill.

There are tenders out right now from the Lakehead Public School Board for "renovations and additions" at Woodcrest and Hyde Park schools. I am guessing that means some sort of addition for Woodcrest and some renovations at Hyde Park.

There is also a tender out from the city for the reconstruction or the 4 roads surrounding the new courthouse. In addition to resurfacing, new services, new sidewalks and some other things, streetscaping is included in the project.

We are going to see a lot more "renovations and additions" at Lakehead Public Schools over the next few years, not to mention outright school construction if the population booms like people are saying it might/will.

The lot at the corner of Lithium and Balmoral is undergoing some work in order to ready it for construction of something. I also saw that Suny's gas bar at County Fair is closed and the pumps have been removed.

[TbayON]

We are going to see a lot more "renovations and additions" at Lakehead Public Schools over the next few years, not to mention outright school construction if the population booms like people are saying it might/will.

The school boards have been in contraction or just holding steady for so long now they are going to have a hard time with growth. The LPSB has closed 3 high schools recently, while opening one new one. I don't think there is a lot of room for growth and it takes quite some time to get a new school built or a large addition done.

The lot at the corner of Lithium and Balmoral is undergoing some work in order to ready it for construction of something. I also saw that Suny's gas bar at County Fair is closed and the pumps have been removed.

That lot was cleared, filled and leveled off late last summer or early in the fall. I haven't seen any action there since, but maybe now that spring is arriving, they are going to get a start on things. I haven't been by there in a while so I don't know of any recent changes. That lot is kind of like the one next to Days Inn on Golf Links, which was also cleared, filled and leveled off then left to sit.

I am surprised Sunny's held on there as long as they did. Partially a product of the mall's decline as well as a poorly marketed company.

[F. Lionel]

I am surprised Sunny's held on there as long as they did. Partially a product of the mall's decline as well as a poorly marketed company.

Very true - I wonder if Safeway will dust off their request to the city for the construction of a gas bar on their property. The original plan was fought at council by Suny's (and a certain involved councillor) if my memory serves me correctly.

The school boards have been in contraction or just holding steady for so long now they are going to have a hard time with growth. The LPSB has closed 3 high schools recently, while opening one new one. I don't think there is a lot of room for growth and it takes quite some time to get a new school built or a large addition done.

They are going to have a hard time in some cases but, hey, portables are cheap. :rolleyes:
More honestly however many of the northside junior schools can be expanded without much hassle. This is probably true about the southside schools as well.

Both boards have built quite a few additions to their schools in recent years even in light of contraction - Algonquin, St. Bernard, Westmount, Corpus Christie, St. Martin etc. The need for another public highschool is going to become apparent soon. Hopefully the public board would choose to locate it in Downtown Fort William or in Ogden-Simpson.

Aurora Borealis will be expanding la Vérendrye in short order as well - the school is becoming more crowded as the junior school's population is growing.
I know that Franco-Supérieur is considering expanding to a full second floor as well. I could see them choosing to build a new school somewhere in the southend as an alternative.
Maybe they'd build it in concert with their planned Franco-Cultural centre?

Personally I'd like to see the Public Board strike a deal with the Fort William Band to build a school on the reserve to serve parts of Westfort and the Band. They could offer a culturally distinct education alternative for all those who wanted to send their children there.

[TbayON]

Both boards have built quite a few additions to their schools in recent years even in light of contraction - Algonquin, St. Bernard, Westmount, Corpus Christie, St. Martin etc. The need for another public highschool is going to become apparent soon. Hopefully the public board would choose to locate it in Downtown Fort William or in Ogden-Simpson.

Yes they have done renovations and additions, but more often than not at the expense of other school's existence. This is especially true with the public board. They have closed quite a few schools in recent years, both elementary and secondary. The additions and renovations were done to accommodate kids moving over from other schools in addition to modernizing the schools chosen to serve the community into the future. I think the influx of Aboriginal students into the system has also necessitated expansion and kept numbers from falling further than they could have.

I would also support a new high school in those areas. Churchill, Westgate and Hammarskjold have the peripheries of the city adequately covered in terms of the public board. They really don't have anything in the downtown areas.

Aurora Borealis will be expanding la Vérendrye in short order as well - the school is becoming more crowded as the junior school's population is growing.
I know that Franco-Supérieur is considering expanding to a full second floor as well. I could see them choosing to build a new school somewhere in the southend as an alternative.
Maybe they'd build it in concert with their planned Franco-Cultural centre?

Personally I'd like to see the Public Board strike a deal with the Fort William Band to build a school on the reserve to serve parts of Westfort and the Band. They could offer a culturally distinct education alternative for all those who wanted to send their children there.

I didn't realize the French language schools were doing so well. You tend not to hear too much from them in the main stream media and the majority of people focus on the public and catholic boards. Having a larger bilingual population for a city in Canada is a great thing and can open up opportunities.

If the public board were to try something like that, I believe a lot of people in this city would not understand the logic and it could back fire, even if its a great idea. It is a very interesting concept and I doubt very much anything like that has been tried in Canada very often, if at all.

[vid]

The need for another public highschool is going to become apparent soon. Hopefully the public board would choose to locate it in Downtown Fort William or in Ogden-Simpson.

Where would we put it? The east side of downtown wouldn't be best served by a high school, and I don't think parents would want their kids going to a school located there. The site currently occupied by Hyde Park school (which is split into two buildings on either end of a city block) is the only suitable location for a high school in pre-war Fort William, but that site is barely 8 blocks away from Westgate. Because of Syndicate merging into Walsh, Westgate is actually very accessible to East Fort William.

But considering the size of Hyde Park and it's unusual set up, if they do need a new high school in East Fort William, I would put my money on that school being the location.

Drew Street would make a nice high school, but it might be difficult to incorporate modern teaching technology into such an old building in a cost-effective and timely manner.

Aurora Borealis will be expanding la Vérendrye in short order as well - the school is becoming more crowded as the junior school's population is growing.
I know that Franco-Supérieur is considering expanding to a full second floor as well. I could see them choosing to build a new school somewhere in the southend as an alternative.
Maybe they'd build it in concert with their planned Franco-Cultural centre?

I know you used to live in the north half of Downtown Port Arthur, but I don't know if you still do. But I'll point out that almost every time I've gone there to take photos, everyone I meet is Francophone. I don't see CSDCAB moving to any other parts of town; they're going to focus their resources in the two existing schools. Most French families in the city are living up there, and new Francophone citizens are probably aware of that area, so I don't think they will get the demand in Fort William to justify a new school there.

I do see Conseil scolaire de district du Grand Nord de l'Ontario establishing a school here at some point. We vote for trustees to that board, but don't receive services from them. If the Francophone population continues to grow (and I have a feeling it is one of the few European ethnic groups in the city that is growing), then the demand will be there.

Personally I'd like to see the Public Board strike a deal with the Fort William Band to build a school on the reserve to serve parts of Westfort and the Band. They could offer a culturally distinct education alternative for all those who wanted to send their children there.

I'd like to see that as well. Considering there are a lot of children on the reserve, it would make sense to locate a school closer to them. They're zoned for Westmount, which is all the way up by Arthur and Edward. Wayland Park is also zoned for that school, so it's quite a distance from most of the area it is serving.

[TbayON]

Where would we put it? The east side of downtown wouldn't be best served by a high school, and I don't think parents would want their kids going to a school located there. The site currently occupied by Hyde Park school (which is split into two buildings on either end of a city block) is the only suitable location for a high school in pre-war Fort William, but that site is barely 8 blocks away from Westgate. Because of Syndicate merging into Walsh, Westgate is actually very accessible to East Fort William.

But considering the size of Hyde Park and it's unusual set up, if they do need a new high school in East Fort William, I would put my money on that school being the location.

I see what you mean room is a problem. There is only a possibility of there being room on the lot where the Gardens is if/when that gets torn down or maybe along Simpson St. if a couple of other buildings were taken down to make room. Of course, it all depends on them being able to get the land and whether or not the curling club stays after the Gardens is gone (I don't know what the plans are for that). The school would have to be built up, not out, and even then, fitting a play field in would be quite the feat. I believe it would have to be a neighbourhood type school and not draw from a large area to avoid parents not wanting their kids there. I can't see Hyde Park and Kingsway being replaced by a high school since Kingsway was renovated a few years back and a tender is now out for the renovation of Hyde Park unless the school board is really desperate. I think their proposed deal with the golf course and the university when they went to build the new Superior High School a few years back proves they aren't too picky about locations for schools and they aren't worried about locating them optimally.

Drew Street would make a nice high school, but it might be difficult to incorporate modern teaching technology into such an old building in a cost-effective and timely manner.

The old Drew school is already occupied by that Christian Fellowship group and they have done some work to the building and put on an addition so it seems they will be planning on staying there for a while. I think you hit the nail on the head with the challenges involved in modernizing that facility. Part of the reason FWCI and PACI were closed was for that exact reason. L.U. spent a boat load of money on bringing PACI up to date. The public school board seems uninterested in getting into that stuff.


I'd like to see that as well. Considering there are a lot of children on the reserve, it would make sense to locate a school closer to them. They're zoned for Westmount, which is all the way up by Arthur and Edward. Wayland Park is also zoned for that school, so it's quite a distance from most of the area it is serving.

If the James St. swing bridge was replaced by a bridge spanning the river from Syndicate (like we discussed a while back), you would land almost in the heart of Fort William F.N. It would be a decent location for a school, especially with the band office, health centre etc. right there.

The Port Authority CEO is cautiously optimistic and is saying the takeover of Viterra could lead to the re-opening of an idled grain elevator in Thunder Bay. The Steelworkers union seems to be painting a little bit less rosy picture, as they are more concerned with potential job losses but remain optimistic things will continue as they were.

[tbay87]

It will be an interesting year for the port, with glencore buying Vieterra. I think the purchase of the Vietera C grain elevator by Richardson should be seen as a positive for the city. Richardson has been in the city for a very long time and for them to double there capacity is a big move.

The main reason for the idled Vitera C grain elevator was because of mission terminal offering better rates to the Canadian wheat board at the time, There was an article about that on TB news website over a year ago. However Vitera also now owns a grain terminal in Montreal so this is all speculation i guess.

I was hoping to see more discusion about this on the tbnews website but the comments get sidetracked.

[TbayON]

What?!?! The comments on the TBnews website got sidetracked? Never. :haha:

[vid]

NetNewsLedger used to be a better place for discussion but now it doesn't get comments at all.

[F. Lionel]

I know you used to live in the north half of Downtown Port Arthur, but I don't know if you still do. But I'll point out that almost every time I've gone there to take photos, everyone I meet is Francophone. I don't see CSDCAB moving to any other parts of town; they're going to focus their resources in the two existing schools. Most French families in the city are living up there, and new Francophone citizens are probably aware of that area, so I don't think they will get the demand in Fort William to justify a new school there.

I do see Conseil scolaire de district du Grand Nord de l'Ontario establishing a school here at some point. We vote for trustees to that board, but don't receive services from them. If the Francophone population continues to grow (and I have a feeling it is one of the few European ethnic groups in the city that is growing), then the demand will be there.

My parents still live there but, more importantly, my children go to Franco and la Vérendrye. There are a good portion of their classmates who live in the northern part of the city but there is also a substantial group who live in the Victoria Park area and in the rural areas south of the city. Enough to consider basing a school there? Maybe not right now but in 5 years? Probably. Add in a second french language day care and it would be a winner. (Le Guarderie at Franco is full almost to bursting).

I am quite surprised, actually, that Grand Nord doesn't already have a school locally but, you are quite right, it will probably come in good time.

[TbayON]

Toronto city council voted to continue forwards with their transit city plan (addition of streetcars to more suburban areas outside of the downtown), essentially killing Mayor Ford's subway plan. Of course, this is great news for the local Bombardier plant. Hopefully the workers there will be able to go full steam ahead with production now. Things were definitely slowed in the past many months by the uncertainty created by Ford's plan after his election. Hopefully that blimp of hot air will get on with running the Canada's largest city now, but unfortunately he is vowing to continue his fight against this project. There isn't really much he can do until the next election though.

There is an article on NNL from Vince Mirabelli where he states that demand in Thunder Bay has never been stronger (in the residential real estate market). I am not sure I completely agree with him, but bidding wars are becoming very common now as supply continues to dwindle. Housing starts are also being hampered by too few lots and a lack of qualified tradespeople to build them.

[F. Lionel]

It will be an interesting year for the port, with glencore buying Vieterra. I think the purchase of the Vietera C grain elevator by Richardson should be seen as a positive for the city. Richardson has been in the city for a very long time and for them to double there capacity is a big move.

The main reason for the idled Vitera C grain elevator was because of mission terminal offering better rates to the Canadian wheat board at the time, There was an article about that on TB news website over a year ago. However Vitera also now owns a grain terminal in Montreal so this is all speculation i guess.

This will indeed be an interesting year for the port - Richardson expanding, the ending of the Wheat Board, the new crane being installed at Keefer...

I wonder if the Port will be able to start construction (or destruction) of some of their other projects like the idled Terminal M plans at the Intercity Port or the Saskatchewan Wheat Pool elevator at the North Port? I also saw that some work of some kind is going on at office of the old Saskpool on Syndicate.

IMHO That elevator is the perfect place for the proposed Grain Experience project that had been bounced around a few years back. Dock an old laker from CSL beside it and you've got one great tourist attraction along the Kam.

[TbayON]

Things are really in transition on the waterfront right now, not just at the port. We are also going to see a drop in coal movements soon as well once the T-Bay Generating Station switches over from coal to natural gas. We are losing Northern Wood and probably Great West as well. The whole waterfront project at Prince Arthur's Landing continues to evolve. Who knows what kind of project cargo the port authority is going to move through this coming year. They seem to increase their business in that area every year.

I don't think anyone really knows what the end of the Wheat Board is going to mean. If the purchase of Viterra by this Glencore outfit and Richardson's probable expansion here are any indicators though, it could mean good things. Current orders of about 10 or 12 new lakers by Canadian shippers is also a good sign. The laker fleet has not seen significant investment in new ships in a long time (thanks to that import tariff on foreign built ships that has now been removed) and there was not an adequate supply of boats to move commodities through the Great Lakes system. I don't think it was mentioned here yet, CSL has named one of their new ships (I think?) Thunder Bay II, after the city.

The old SaskPool elevator is pretty good location for the Grain Experience Centre. I just wonder how much damage has been done by that fire years back. It is a worthy project, most people consider us a forestry town, but we were moving grain long before forestry was big business here. The forest industry here originally was a product of grain elevator and railway construction.

The provincial government is putting their building at 189 Red River Rd. up for sale in 2013 or 2014. They plan to lease back the space they are using from the new owner.

There is an interesting article in Northern Ontario Business this month about Red Lake's power problems. There is not enough capacity to feed all the mining related industry coming on-line there right now. One company advancing towards production there, Northern Iron Corporation out of Vancouver, is looking at shipping ore to Thunder Bay and setting up a processing facility here to get around the power problem. The ore would come here by rail and the excess power generation capacity exists here to feed the processing facility.

[F. Lionel]

Signing off By Jamie Smith, tbnewswatch.com

A land deal between the city and private developers on the waterfront is only a few pen strokes away from being complete.

The Private Development Consortium, led by ReSolve Group Inc., will take control over land at Prince Arthur’s Landing April 12 for a hotel, two condominiums, parking and the former CN Station. City council approved the last of 90 documents for the deal Monday. Now it’s just a matter of everyone signing them. After that, construction can begin.
...

http://www.tbnewswatch.com/news/199071/Signing-off

I wonder if the Hotel will be announced on the 12th? It does mean that construction on the condos will probably begin very quickly.

Is the marketplace starting construction this summer? Or is it being built in conjunction with the hotel?

[TbayON]

I would think too that the condos will begin right away. As for the hotel, we can only guess. The developers definitely hear what is being said about this development in the community and realize many are skeptical about some parts of the development. They will probably want to release information as quickly as possible to have the truth out there, not just people's BS rumours concocted in their imaginations (not that it will stop most them, but at least normal people will be able to differentiate between the BS and the truth). I have no idea about the market square... maybe Vid knows more about it?

The Lakehead Public School Board is putting an addition onto Hyde Park school, its not just renos. They are adding a multipurpose room and a library this summer. There are also some renos to be done within the existing building. Woodcrest is also getting a larger addition. If I remember correctly, 3 classrooms, a multipurpose room and possibly another room are being added on in the 2 storey addition there.

The Shoreline Hotel and the owners of the Lyceum building owe the city tax money. TbNews has already jumped all over it as potential parking for the downtown events centre.

[White Pine]

Ontario Northland is being sold now, or something like that. Not sure how well used it was, but the passenger rail was a great thing to have.

[toaster]

Bartolucci should be ashamed of himself.

[vid]

It's just another example of a government based in the south sacrificing the needs of the north to appease voters in the south. It doesn't really affect Northwestern Ontario, but the Liberals have definitely hurt their chances of being re-elected in the Northeast.

--

IIRC, the hotel and condos at Prince Arthur's Landing are all being built at the same time to avoid interfering with each other. (No one wants to live in a condo between two construction sites, and no one wants to stay at a hotel beside a construction site.)

The signed contracts will probably be made public and at that time we will probably find out what the hotelier will be.

I am not sure what is going on with the Market Square, I think it is related to what is going on in the train station, they're probably just waiting for the construction season to start up before working on it. It has changed a bit since I was last there in January, so they're not doing nothing at the site.

--

I can't speak for the Shoreline, but the Lyceum Building, according to a letter from Larry Hebert to Jon Hutt posted on the latter's website, is owned by a guy in California. (This is similar to the West and Empire Hotels, owned by some guy in Ottawa.) It's basically land speculation.

Jon Hutt wrote the letter to Hebert expressing concern over dripping water and interior damage in the Lyceum, and he posted photos showing considerable damage. Repairing the building would be very costly, so I think it is more likely than not that the building is lost. The main issue will be getting control of the land, which if he hasn't paid taxes for several years should be possible.

As for the Shoreline, I don't think that building will be demolished for parking, it will probably be taken by the city, sold, and renovated into a more upscale hotel to complement the events centre, if that ends up going in Downtown Port Arthur. It does need some work, but it certainly isn't decrepit. Lyceum, unfortunately, is probably just an inspection away from being condemned. I really don't have much hope that it will survive. :(

Squatting on land like that should be illegal. The city needs to make a by-law requiring anyone purchasing a vacant building or vacant land in the core areas to do something with it within two years or forfeit the land to the city. Many American cities have laws like this, but I'm not sure if it is possible in Canada.

[F. Lionel]

Ontario Northland is being sold now, or something like that. Not sure how well used it was, but the passenger rail was a great thing to have.

The loss of the passenger rail is disheartening. Perhaps the service could be rolled to VIA or GO? I thought I read something about assuring that passenger service continued to Moosenee. One of the major short-line conglomerates might pick it up as a whole with their eyes on bidding for the service contracts on the new ROF line(s).

I can't speak for the Shoreline, but the Lyceum Building, according to a letter from Larry Hebert to Jon Hutt posted on the latter's website, is owned by a guy in California. (This is similar to the West and Empire Hotels, owned by some guy in Ottawa.) It's basically land speculation.

Jon Hutt wrote the letter to Hebert expressing concern over dripping water and interior damage in the Lyceum, and he posted photos showing considerable damage. Repairing the building would be very costly, so I think it is more likely than not that the building is lost. The main issue will be getting control of the land, which if he hasn't paid taxes for several years should be possible.

As for the Shoreline, I don't think that building will be demolished for parking, it will probably be taken by the city, sold, and renovated into a more upscale hotel to complement the events centre, if that ends up going in Downtown Port Arthur. It does need some work, but it certainly isn't decrepit. Lyceum, unfortunately, is probably just an inspection away from being condemned. I really don't have much hope that it will survive. :(

Squatting on land like that should be illegal. The city needs to make a by-law requiring anyone purchasing a vacant building or vacant land in the core areas to do something with it within two years or forfeit the land to the city. Many American cities have laws like this, but I'm not sure if it is possible in Canada.

Consider this: The city seizes the Shorline and Brewers Retail goes up for sale. A deal is worked up with Ramada, Canadinns, or another hotel chain looking to expand to the city, that sees the Shorline transferred to the purchaser for a minimal sum and both lots are demolished to build a new waterfront facing hotel. But the transfer of land is contingent on the hotelier picking up half the cost of a parkade that will be partially used by the city in conjunction with the Events Centre. A skywalk or tunnel could be included in the cost of the parkade to make it all the more lucrative a proposition. The lot on the other side of Cumberland could become home to some single story retail/office space. The Prince Arthur would raise hell but their proximity to a new events centre should be enough to quiet them with a little landscaping on the former Van Norman Street.

Although the Lyceum is probably a complete writeoff it would be nice if, at least, the fascade could be retained. It's probably a complete loss, however, and will lead to another hole in the Cumberland streetscape.

[TbayON]

Ontario Northland is being sold now, or something like that. Not sure how well used it was, but the passenger rail was a great thing to have.

Our far-flung pharoahs from the south do shit like this then wonder why they need growth plans and never ending studies examining why Northern Ontario is the way it is. You cannot develop a leading economy in a developed country without infrastructure to support it, I mean its that simple and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. These assclowns in Toronto seem perfectly fine with the transportation infrastructure in one of Canada's most vital zones of transit being ripped up, left to degrade or being woefully inadequate compared to what actually should be there. I can think of two reasons why they would have this attitude: 1. They are uneducated, unaware and have no knowledge of what they are dealing with (and therefore should not have any decision making powers over these issues) and; 2. They don't give a shit. Personally, I think its a combination of the two.

The polar express up to Moosenee is continuing for sure.


Consider this: The city seizes the Shorline and Brewers Retail goes up for sale. A deal is worked up with Ramada, Canadinns, or another hotel chain looking to expand to the city, that sees the Shorline transferred to the purchaser for a minimal sum and both lots are demolished to build a new waterfront facing hotel. But the transfer of land is contingent on the hotelier picking up half the cost of a parkade that will be partially used by the city in conjunction with the Events Centre. A skywalk or tunnel could be included in the cost of the parkade to make it all the more lucrative a proposition. The lot on the other side of Cumberland could become home to some single story retail/office space. The Prince Arthur would raise hell but their proximity to a new events centre should be enough to quiet them with a little landscaping on the former Van Norman Street.

Could the city legally transfer the land and building to a prospective hotelier for a cost below its appraised value? I'm not sure about the rules there. Its an interesting proposal though. Something like that would really force the Prince Arthur to step it up, not to mention help breathe more life back into the downtown north core. Three large hotels all within walking distance of each other, many businesses and the waterfront... not bad at all I wouldn't think.

[vid]

It is illegal for the city to sell land to private individuals or corproations for below market value. The only option to sell land for less than it is worth is a situation like this one where the city is auctioning off land with owing taxes with bids starting at taxes owed.

There is a way to get around this, though: In North Bay, they established a non-profit organization, to which they can legally sell land for below market value, and that organization then sells the land for a little bit more than it paid to a private investor, to give those individuals and companies a foothold in their downtown area. It was doing quite well a few years ago. I am not sure if that loophole has been closed or not, but it is definitely something that Thunder Bay should be considering.

[F. Lionel]

Something like that would really force the Prince Arthur to step it up, not to mention help breathe more life back into the downtown north core. Three large hotels all within walking distance of each other, many businesses and the waterfront... not bad at all I wouldn't think.

I think having the new harbour front hotel will push the Prince Arthur to be more than it currently is all on its own.

I noticed, today, that the waterfront signage is continued into the area around the Pagoda. It was nice to see and the continuity is quite excellent.

Up on Algoma street the fences are up all around St. Joe's for the demolition of the Smith Centre.

International Clothiers in Intercity reopened from their renovation today. Quarks should be open by the weekend. Magicuts is moving out of Zellars and into the mall by the customer care centre.

The former le Chic store on Red River Rd is now occupied by a hair salon.

[TbayON]

There is a way to get around this, though: In North Bay, they established a non-profit organization, to which they can legally sell land for below market value, and that organization then sells the land for a little bit more than it paid to a private investor, to give those individuals and companies a foothold in their downtown area. It was doing quite well a few years ago. I am not sure if that loophole has been closed or not, but it is definitely something that Thunder Bay should be considering.

It is definitely worth considering. On paper, it should help get land into the hands of someone that has a purpose it mind for it and help with revitalization efforts.

I think having the new harbour front hotel will push the Prince Arthur to be more than it currently is all on its own.

As they say, in the market economy, competition is a good thing. Competition right on their doorstep would require the Prince Arthur keep their rooms up to date and keep their rates affordable, or at least in line with the competition. It forces them to run more efficiently, which, in the long run, often keeps businesses afloat.

Up on Algoma street the fences are up all around St. Joe's for the demolition of the Smith Centre.

St. Joe's wanted the courthouse over there on Algoma once the new courthouse is open in downtown Fort William as well. Of course, the old courthouse is a heritage building and they would have to work with what is so I don't think they are interested in it anymore. Kind of a relief really, we don't need to lose that historic building from PA. Hopefully St Joe's is able to get their new building up on what will be the old Smith Centre land sooner than later so there is not too big of a hole there for too long. The old courthouse is going to make for one nice condo unit as long as it lands in the right buyer's hands.

Maltese Grocery is going to be renovating and putting on an addition to their Algoma St. store pretty soon. They have plans done for it and are somewhere between hiring a contractor/pricing the job and actually starting.

I also noticed yesterday (because the train tracks were empty) there have been two newer silo/tank units attached to the old International Harvester factory across the tracks from the corner of Brock St. and Syndicate along the Kam River. Maybe they have been there a while and I haven't noticed. I didn't realize anything was going on there I thought it was abandoned.

[vid]

I am pretty sure those tanks have been there for years. It was used as a chemical company about 10 years ago, I think, and that was what the tanks were for.

http://i.imgur.com/3FE5c.jpg
This photo is from May, 2008.

They looked brand new when I was down there that day.

[TbayON]

Wow... I have been by there a million times and I have never really taken note of those things before. I guess, even in a small city, there is always new things to be seen even if its only a couple of white tanks.

It is too bad that building has fallen into such a state of disrepair. The view of the river on the other side is probably pretty nice. It could have been re-purposed I suppose and provided an interesting vantage point (if you could ignore the noise from the trains on the other side). It kind of reminds me of the Plymouth Landing building next to the James St. Swing Bridge. At least Plymouth Landing has a good shot at a future under the control of Habib though.

[vid]

Does anyone know who owns that building?

[TbayON]

All I have been able to find so far is that it is/was Thunder Bay Chemicals Ltd. and nothing other than that really. I found a map of industrial facilities in the Port of Thunder Bay copyrighted in 2009 and the property is still listed there as Thunder Bay Chemicals. It also appeared as the same thing on study maps from the city development services dept. made in fall 2010 for the Kam River and Islands land use study. It is listed as 1100 Kam Rd.

[F. Lionel]

At one point either Allied or Atlas Van Lines (I forget which) was leasing space inside the building for storage.

The building itself was originally the International Harvester Building where they produced Tractors prior to World War One. I've been down there to grab pictures for my website and the building itself is still in fairly good shape. There is some erosion of the bank on the river side and the wilderness has grown in a little on the south side but it was quite clean when I was poking around.

This was 3 years ago though and things do change.

[TbayON]

The city's Kam River & Islands Land Use study recommends using the building for smaller business establishment once the city gets a trail network established along the banks of the Kam and all along the waterfront. The whole report is a quick, interesting read if you have a few minutes to go through it:

http://www.thunderbay.ca/City_Government/Departments/Development_Services/Planning_Division/Kam_River_and_Islands_Land_Use_Study.htm

It is not overly ambitious, which keeps it realistic and low cost to the taxpayer. Contamination from former industrial site emerged, for me anyways, as the single largest detractor to development in the study area. This report suggests moving the lands in the study area completely away from industrial use, and instead purposing it for open space, residential development and commercial development. The report also suggests the area around Plymouth Landing should be zoned as waterfront property for mixed development. The lands could then be used for restaurants, small shops etc. Habib had started (about a year and a half ago or so I think) doing a little work in the Plymouth Landing building with the intention of turning it into shops, restaurants and condo units. I was able to go inside the building, and the view of the river and Mount McKay in the background is very nice and a completely different view of things as compared to being on the swing bridge.

Sounds like there could be some really good news coming out of the not so good news that Michael Power is leaving his posts at the hospital, and more importantly economically, the TBRRI. With news of his resignations yesterday and moving onto Elekta, everyone thought he was leaving for good, as did I. I figured, with what he has been so instrumental in creating here in Thunder Bay, his influence within Elekta would bring the company to Thunder Bay in some form and Power would still be doing great things for Thunder Bay in the future. Well it seems that is already coming true, and to top things off, Power will be staying here locally. More details are supposed to be released today sometime.

[tjernobyl]

The Chippewa roller coaster is shutting down.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/story/2012/04/03/tby-cheppewa-roller-coaster.html

The Spillman junior steel coaster was originally installed at Winnipeg Beach park until sometime after the park closed in 1964. It was installed at Chippewa in 1967, and retains a Canadian record for longest in use at the same location.

[tbay87]

http://www.tbnewswatch.com/news/200699/Businessman-has-big-plans-for-former-Northern-Wood-property

There seems to be some really cool stuff being planed for the property.

I am not sure why people are so against industrial development. These are good paying jobs!! Not sure why most of the comments on this are too build more parkland. Do people really want more green space vs jobs ?

I would love to see this happen, think of all the spinoff employment. more ships coming in, more trains with iron ore and so on.

Would love to see Thunder Bay moving forward and not some retirement city!

I also love Industrial related news!

Also sad to see that the Chippewa roller coaster being shut down, its like a right of passage. It seems Chippewa is on a downward trend, cabins being torn down, and people swimming at Sandy beach.

[TbayON]

Most people aren't against this kind of stuff, you are just hearing the same few people over and over and over again complaining about anything and everything development related. There is a group of people in this town who are convinced nothing should ever change in their "beloved town" and that money shouldn't be spent on any project. I believe most people are more concerned that these types of development progress properly and not result in damage to the lake and land and aren't necessarily against it. They try to get the facts, and make an informed decision first. The small group of complainers dismiss the idea as soon as it hits the news from behind their computer screens with little or no knowledge of the actual issue. The majority of the people who complain still think of industrial development as something out of the industrial revolution at the turn of the 20th century with smoke stacks belching out clouds of black smoke. Industry is quite a bit different today, especially in urbanized areas, and continues to improve their image.

Also notice that the people complaining that the Northern Wood lands should be parkland are the EXACT same people that complain non-stop that Marina Park was a waste of money. I doubt half the people complaining even know where the Northern Woods property is, judging by their comments that this proposal will ruin what has been accomplished at Marina Park. Its just non-sense to hear themselves talk really, that's all.

Mr. Gagne's proposal sounds much like that of Northern Iron's proposal to possibly build a similar facility here due to power constraints in Red Lake. I like what he is trying to create with the property, clustering of industrial operations is proving to be a super efficient way of doing business, even when its competing companies.

Took a few pictures today of a couple projects around town:

Beaux Daddy's on Highway 61:
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4205/img0440tf.jpg
I am almost sure it is not open yet. There has been a lot of action there recently though.

Site prep at Terra Vista condos at Balmoral and Beverly:
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/5133/img0442lu.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4383/img0441tr.jpg
Looks as though most of the servicing is done for the buildings there. They are starting to work on the base layers for roadways as well.

[tbay87]

Hmm i wonder what the plan is with the iron ore dock. I know most ships are self unloading these days. Is such a structure needed anymore to load these ships?

[TbayON]

No idea... only time will tell I guess. I am not sure if that is on the Northern Wood property or not, I don't know the specifics of that area. I doubt very much it would be used though. They will require something more up to date, and as you have suggested, technology has changed a lot. I hope this will actually help Brook McIlroy's vision for a park around the old trestle. They won an award in Toronto for the design.

I wonder if rail service into the area will require improvements. Obviously, in the past, more tonnage of grain etc. moved through the port, so there is probably capacity there. Vid will probably be able to enlighten us on the specifics more later.

[tbay87]

http://www.thunderbay.ca/Assets/City+Government/City+Records+$!26+Archives/images/Exhibit+-+Waterfront/Aerial+Image+10.jpg

The one side got filled in, also the article has a picture of the iron ore dock now to. Hopefully this picture works

[tjernobyl]

Beaux Daddy's on Highway 61:
I am almost sure it is not open yet. There has been a lot of action there recently though.

I talked to the manager the other day. They are in soft-launch phase, testing out menus and the like. Their earliest possible opening date was shortly after Easter, though they have the resources to wait until everything is right.

I recall a property on Maureen street being heavily into tax arrears- was this the Northern Wood property, or something else?

[TbayON]

I recall a property on Maureen street being heavily into tax arrears- was this the Northern Wood property, or something else?

Northern Wood was at 490 Maureen St. Not sure what 569 Maureen St. is. I am guess any taxes owing by Buchanan to the city were settled during the bankruptcy proceedings.

I can believe that Beaux Daddy's can wait until things are right to open. Its taken years to get to this point, what is a few more weeks or another month?

[vid]

That's the Agricore elevator with the large round tanks, across the slip from the ore dock. The Port Authority will probably buy the land. I'm kind of surprised the site is in that situation, as Agricore is now part of Viterra. I'm pretty sure they're the ones that own that property.

Quite a bit of the lake around Northern Woods got filled in in the 1990s. They've probably tripled the land area of that site. It has the potential to be the nicest industrial park in the city. The north shore of the site is a new wetland area similar to Mission Marsh (the result of the blob cleanup).

The best news about this development is that we finally know what to do with the giant piece of land. Industrial use is probably the best option. The city should connect it to Sleeping Giant Parkway as soon as possible, get the people working there used to running to downtown for lunch instead of to Intercity. Mixed used developments anchored by a destination attraction on the Pool Six site can bridge the site to the downtown core.

[TbayON]

There are reports out right now that Sudbury is going to be named as the definite location for the ferrochrome processor for the Cliff's project in the Ring of Fire.

I believe this decision may open the door for more trouble in getting this project off the ground for Cliffs. The northern First Nations were pretty adamant any resources removed from their territories be processed as much as possible within the area is was removed from. In other words, the First Nations wanted the processor to go to the Greenstone bid, which would have landed the unit in Aroland. I suspect they won't be happy with this latest revelation, but I am not sure exactly how far they will take their actions. I am not sure they have the long-term will and coordination between the many northern nations to bring Cliff's project to a grinding halt, but its certainly possible.

Its really not much of a surprise Sudbury is getting it though. They have the labour, the suppliers and the infrastructure in place. Thunder Bay didn't stand much of a chance since the railway was not in place to get the ore here efficiently. Cliff's will very likely look upon Thunder Bay to provide the people and material for the construction and operation of the mine site, haul road and trans-load facility at Nakina. Last time I looked at Cliff's plans, flights were to go between the mine site and Thunder Bay airport. At least Cliffs is putting the processor in Northern Ontario, and not Quebec, Manitoba or overseas.

[tbay87]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/story/2012/04/04/tby-iron-ore-plant.html

More about the old iron ore dock

From the article:
Gagne said Rockex won't be using the ore dock the way the Atikokan iron mines did.

“In the past, they used to store the iron ore right on top of the ore trestle, but that's not how it's going to be in the future,” he said. “We're only going to use the structure for the travelling ship loader that's going to travel the length of the structure.”

Interesting stuff glad to see that it can be reused and not torn down.

Something like this i guess, cool!
http://www.porttechnology.org/technical_papers/choosing_the_right_ship_loader_for_handling_bulk_materials_which_one_is_rig

[TbayON]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/story/2012/04/04/tby-iron-ore-plant.html

More about the old iron ore dock

From the article:
Gagne said Rockex won't be using the ore dock the way the Atikokan iron mines did.

“In the past, they used to store the iron ore right on top of the ore trestle, but that's not how it's going to be in the future,” he said. “We're only going to use the structure for the travelling ship loader that's going to travel the length of the structure.”

I am also happy the old ore dock will be remaining, and even happier it sounds like it will be getting put to use. I doubt very much a great amount of iron ore will be stored anywhere on the site. Its too expensive for companies to keep large inventories of their product sitting in a yard in this day in age. The ore will probably come off the rail cars, go straight to processing and right onto a boat once there is a load's worth there. I am not sure what the plan is for winter though.


To further add to the point I made yesterday about ferrorchrome processor going to Sudbury, here is an article that articulates some of the chief's positions:
http://www.northernontariobusiness.com/Industry-News/mining/First-Nation-chiefs-make-statement-on-Ring-of-Fire-corridor.aspx

I think they put it pretty bluntly how they want things to go, and what they plan to do if Cliffs goes a separate way.

I also heard today, from a credible source, there is a group seriously looking at firing up the old Longlac Wood Industries mill in Longlac. The mill was shut down way back in 2006 by Kruger, when they decided they weren't making enough money there, and shifted production elsewhere. There is renewed interest in the facility because some company (not sure who) in North America requires waferboard for whatever they are doing. LWI was the only Canadian mill with the ability to produce waferboard when it was shut down. The mill also produced plywood and other high end products.

Kenogami Industries Inc. purchased the mill in 2009. I am not sure if they are the group looking at restarting operations now or not.

[vid]

I wish there was a way that Northwestern Ontario municipalities could sue CN Rail for damages as a result of them ripping up the Kinghorn line. :no: If they had just looked ahead one year into the future and saw the Ring of Fire they'd have left it alone. There have been quite a few economic opportunities we've lost now as a result of the removal of that line. I've always disliked CN, and it's only getting stronger. It could have benefitted Aroland, even; ore could have been processed there and shipped to Thunder Bay port for export.

Back to Thunder Bay, NOB has an interview with Ahsanul Habib: http://www.northernontariobusiness.com/videos/conversations.aspx?bcpid=1341199751001&bctid=1518923223001

[TbayON]

I wish there was a way that Northwestern Ontario municipalities could sue CN Rail for damages as a result of them ripping up the Kinghorn line. :no: If they had just looked ahead one year into the future and saw the Ring of Fire they'd have left it alone. There have been quite a few economic opportunities we've lost now as a result of the removal of that line. I've always disliked CN, and it's only getting stronger. It could have benefitted Aroland, even; ore could have been processed there and shipped to Thunder Bay port for export.

CN saw the growth in the oilsands, and couldn't resist ripping up the track and laying it down at Fort Mac. Unfortunately in this case, CN is a private company and they can do what they please with their assets. I think we need to blame ourselves and our provincial government as much as CN though. We in Thunder Bay did not lobby hard enough to keep the line in place. Our business people didn't step up to the plate and try and buy it. Our provincial government did absolutely nothing to try and keep the rails in place. Now, we are starting to see the price we are going to pay for CN ripping it up, and for us letting it go. I don't know that we could have changed CN's mind, but we should have tried harder. If we only knew then what we know now.

My hope was a group of investors would get together and bring the Kinghorn back. I have no idea what cost would be involved, but it couldn't be too bad. The bed for the railway is already there, minus a few fix ups probably. Does CN have title to or own the land on which the Kinghorn used to sit? We would then have a direct line in place all the way up to the ROF once the railway is built up there. The opportunities would have been endless, given that there will be many mines developed over the coming years up there.

[vid]

Greenstone tried to buy the Kinghorn line. CN Rail blocked it.

[tbay87]

The king horn line was probably due for some major maintenance, i remember seeing the rail line flex in some mud as a train passed over it one summer. I guess CN just runs stuff to the ground if they determine that they cant make much profit. My parents have a camp by the old king horn and now its just some extra road, i doubt it will ever be a snowmobile/atv trail.

[TbayON]

That rings a bell in my head, I do remember that Greenstone had tried to buy it now. At least, at this point, it sounds like the flights going up to the mine site will be leaving from Thunder Bay. I guess with the processor going to Sudbury, it seems an image of sharing the benefits of the project around the north is being created.

It is unfortunate we will not be getting the 500 jobs. We and the city have to remember Cliffs is just a small piece of the pie though. There are many projects throughout Northwestern Ontario that are heading towards production. Once investors see the potential around here, maybe they will be more likely to dump some cash into building up the infrastructure around the city to better move people and materials. We should also be focused on getting the service and supply jobs. Often, they outnumber production jobs and represent a more diversified economy less dependent on one source of employment. Modern mine service and supply jobs are high-tech, high paying and knowledge intensive positions that will continue to exist long after the physical mines have closed. Service and supply has the ability to sell their products and knowledge around the world, and is based on human capital, not a finite cache of a resource. This time around, Northern Ontario has to do resource development right. In the past, we have only been hewers of wood and drawers of water. This time around, we need to develop to our full potential and not only extract resources, but create a whole knowledge-based economy around them that will persist long after the mines have closed.

[vid]

All of CN's infrastructure needs maintenance. They don't properly control weeds growing in the ballast which causes a lot of forest fires, while CP takes good care of their ballast and it has no weeds. The CN line through Marina Park actually has small trees growing in it by the end of summer. It's shameful.

And while they ripped up the Kinghorn line, they'll probably never rip up the line running through Intercity. :no: Of course if they did, they'd have to use CP's mainline, and as someone who lives along that mainline, the last thing I want is a CN train in my backyard. Their safety record is shit.

[TbayON]

CN fixed up the road crossings on Fort William Rd., the Harbour Expressway and on Memorial Ave in 2011, so I don't think the tracks are going anywhere soon. They definitely wouldn't have spent the money if they were taking them out.

I wonder what would happen with the right of way the line is on if they ever did tear it up though? It wouldn't be very useful to the city as a street, given the angle its on. Someone would probably want it turned into a recreation trail.

[vid]

CN fixed up the crossings because the law requires them to be periodically rebuilt. The closure of the crossing at Camelot Street in Port Arthur coincided with one of those re-builds for CP; it would have been rebuilt around that time if the city had plans for Marina Park or not. The rebuild of the Memorial Avenue crossing was done in 2008 when they rebuilt that stretch of street.

The CN ROW would make a good transitway.

From Downtown Port Arthur to Fort William Road, the corridor could be used as a right of way to access Pool 6 and Northern Woods sites, and bus service to that area, should it become an employment hub, can run along that road.

From Fort William Road to Memorial Avenue, it can be a transitway. New retail developments in the block between Harbour and 11th can benefit from this.

The existing bridge over the McIntyre River can potentially be used to carry traffic over the river, connecting Vickers and Carrick. Or it can exist as a transitway, improving connections for that part of the city. The industrial part along Waterford could become a new retail area.

The portion from Cameron to Rosslyn Road could become a recreation trail, though the portion running along the Empire Street right of way could become a street, opening up quite a few lots for development in that area.


I was looking at the area north of BoWater on Google Maps a few days ago, and the area along the new Broadway Avenue could has potential to become a business park. It has good highway visibility. The area between Broadway and south of Westfort Playfield could be used for residential and business development as well. The only stumbling block would be the smell of the mill, which might not be an issue if they will be focusing less on pulp and paper in the future.

[greyraven8]

Is this their office on Main street or the operations at the airport? Personally I wish they'd move their whole operation out to the airport......

Purolator doesn't have any buildings at the airport, our trucks go there, in the mornings, pick up the freight and bring everything back to the Main street building, and do the reverse in the evening
currently the Purolator plane has Purolator, Canada Post, UPS, ICS Courier, and one other company's freight on it - it goes to Winnipeg every night and returns the next morning


I've posted awhile back that Purolator is looking to expand its warehouse, both the airport and Port Authority are "fighting" for that warehouse :sly:

Purolator's office/warehouse is at 140 Main St.

Latest I've heard about Purolator is moving out to the airport looks very unlikely, the land cleared behind them last year (by the Port Authority?) for possible expansion looks it's going to be unused by them, and the newest plan is to build a new warehouse directly across the street from where they are.
Won't believe anything until I actually see a building going up.

[ccnews]

greyraven8, you are correct

they were suppose to renovate the front offices looks like that is on hold as well

there was another "engineer" in the depot two weeks ago, looking over the operation........time will tell....

[TbayON]

The CN ROW would make a good transitway.

I have thought for a while that would make a good light rail line. Imagine if the city could get together with Bombardier on some kind of experimental or demonstration light rail line. Instead of running buses down it, you could have the buses feeding into the LRT line and have it running people across town and have the buses serving locations around town. It might help reduce the amount of time it takes to get across town on transit. Just something interesting to think about.

I was looking at the area north of BoWater on Google Maps a few days ago, and the area along the new Broadway Avenue could has potential to become a business park. It has good highway visibility. The area between Broadway and south of Westfort Playfield could be used for residential and business development as well. The only stumbling block would be the smell of the mill, which might not be an issue if they will be focusing less on pulp and paper in the future.

I would think it would be best to keep that area along Broadway geared towards more of an industrial business park. Hopefully more industry will establish around the Resolute pulp mill one day to take advantage of opportunities in the bio-economy and around clustering of industry.The smell of the mill has steadily been improving over the years, with the installation of scrubbers in the stacks and better pollution controls. In addition, we don't often get winds straight out of the south so I don't think there would be much of a problem with building up south of the Westfort Playfield. In fact, there is a new apartment building going up at the very west end of Frederica at this moment. I wouldn't put any commercial or residential development any further south then the railway tracks.

A worker died today on the Thunder Bay Country Club job site after reportedly being struck by a dump truck. This will almost certainly lead to a complete stoppage in work there as the MOL will probably issue stop work orders. Not that any of that kind of stuff should be the focus right now, thoughts are with the family and co-workers affected by this.

[vid]

I came up with an LRT idea based on the line years ago. It is quite popular among the group working on the new transit plan.

[TbayON]

I would hope it would be a popular idea among the group making the transit plan. The route makes so much sense for that kind of thing, you would have to be completely insane not to see it as a good idea. You could service (from the south end of town) the Resolute Pulp Mill and Bombardier, the airport, Mini Queens Park, all the residential areas up Waterloo, the light industrial areas around Harold Cres. and Carrick St., the Intercity Mall and all the retail around there, current and future industry in the intercity waterfront area, Marina Park, the downtown north core, the potential new events centre (and eliminate some parking concerns), and all of Cumberland and industry along that stretch of the waterfront without any major construction or changes to the line. You could add other pieces pretty easily to serve Current River and other parts of town. It would probably make the trip across town a whole lot easier and more efficient, and help keep buses running more smoothly as well.

If this ever came to be, the city may be required to make some improvements at the crossings in the intercity area, since there would be quite a bit of interruption to traffic because crossings would be pretty frequent. The trains wouldn't be that long though, so people could probably be told to suck it up and deal with it. Or better yet, beat the system and get on the train. I also think the city would need to put in some park and ride lots. If I were working along an area served by the LRT and lived a little ways away from a station, it would make sense to park and ride so long as I was planning on heading straight home after work (which most people do). I think a LRT line could really generate some moderate density construction along it and the city could encourage development of higher density housing surrounding the line.

[TbayON]

A couple pieces of news out of Dryden:

First, there is an funding announcement being made today at the Domtar mill. Michael Gravelle and representatives from CRIBE are supposed to be on hand for the "significant" announcement. Rumours are it has something to do with a bio-fuel project. I will update when the news is made public.

Second, a proposal has been put forth to turn the old Pinewood School in Dryden into an Aboriginal housing and learning facility. Initially, the public school board will take the reigns of the project, but will eventually turn it over to an Aboriginal group. Renovations and re-zoning are necessary for the building to be suitable to house 72 residents.

[TbayON]

The announcement in Dryden today involved $6 million in funding provided to a project between Domtar and Batelle towards a project worth $14 million to convert underutilized and low-value wood into bio-oil and fuels. The fuels will eventually be used in Domtar's vehicle fleet and/or to offset the use of natural gas.

Batelle's system used a process known as fast-pyrolosis. Its basically a very rapid form of what it takes the earth millions of years to do when oil is produced from vegetation. Batelle claims their system is much more advanced than most/all other similar systems on the market, and will, in short, produce more fuel for less. The end product of this project is a plant attached to the mill that will produce 100 tons/day of bio-oils.

This is another example of how the forest industry in changing in Northern Ontario. The only pulp and paper operations that will be able to survive in Northern Ontario in the face of intense global competition (especially with our long rotation ages for trees) will be those that invest in technologies like this. This announcement, along with some other recent investments into new technologies and other pulp and paper operations around Northern Ontario, are only the beginning of the novel technologies and new processes that will be added to these operations in the next decade or so.

There is another subdivision on the city planning division's desk right now. Its for 70 some single detached homes south of Hwy 61, west of Cypress Dr. and north of Mountain Rd in South Neebing. There are a few new streets involved, and the main drag in this subdivision is going to go from the corner of Hwy 61 and Mt. Forest Blvd in the north to the corner of Mountain Rd and Tuxedo Dr in the south.

[TbayON]

The city signed over the land to the private developers for the waterfront today.

Joe Bova has imposed a June 30th deadline for announcing the successful hotelier, and claims he has been talking with several different hotel chains about putting a four-star hotel on the waterfront. He also said a market analysis revealed there is room in Thunder Bay for a four-star hotel (no surprise there) and that other hotel projects in the city will not affect this one.

Condo sales are supposed to start in about 5 weeks time, and construction will begin when 60% of the units are sold. The Resolve Group said they already have more interest than units available.

[vid]

When this project was first announced here on SSP back in 2009 I think, I received many PMs from people throughout the upper midwest inquiring about those condos. A lot of people in the city don't realize, but we do reach a market as far away as Chicago and St. Louis. One member in St. Louis mentioned to me that the city is airing commercials on TV there.

[TbayON]

Absolutely, we really aren't that separated from the mid-west states and millions of people when you consider the distances Canadians and Americans will go for sun-destination vacations in the winter and spring time.

I have had people in Thunder Bay tell me they don't understand what attracts Americans from the mid-west here. I typically respond to them that when you stare at corn fields all day (or a concrete jungle spread across a flat expanse of land), what we have in Northwestern Ontario, especially on the shores of Lake Superior, is very scenic.

Its not only the states though, a lot of people are getting fed up with the rat race in the GTA and want out. They come to more isolated cities like T-Bay because they can get away from the mad rush, but still have many of the amenities they are accustomed to but with a better quality of life in many aspects.

Short, but good little article from NNL, I think is sums up a lot of our feelings on here.
http://netnewsledger.com/2012/04/12/long-term-planning-always-makes-more-sense-than-short-term-planning/

[F. Lionel]

There is another subdivision on the city planning division's desk right now. Its for 70 some single detached homes south of Hwy 61, west of Cypress Dr. and north of Mountain Rd in South Neebing. There are a few new streets involved, and the main drag in this subdivision is going to go from the corner of Hwy 61 and Mt. Forest Blvd in the north to the corner of Mountain Rd and Tuxedo Dr in the south.

Like the addition to Silvertree in the North End this is just another rehash of a plan from the 1990s. Good to see it come to fruition and get some more tax dollar returns on the insane infrastructure investments the city has made in Neebing. It does mark 8 different housing developments currently happening within the city (not including the Country Club or Marina condos). I wonder how many total lots are going to be available for purchase in the city by this time next year?

I came up with an LRT idea based on the line years ago. It is quite popular among the group working on the new transit plan.

I remember you talking about this in the past and seem to remember seeing a map you had created. Care to repost it? A limited LRT operating in this city is a good idea since it is so much more spread out that most similar-sized Canadian and American cities.

Some happenings that I've seen around town:

-Lidz is opening a kiosk at Intercity Mall.
-The expansion of the Days Inn on Junot is underconstruction with the first floor walls in place.
-There is some work going on in the old Inland Concrete site on Field st. It's probably going to be an expansion of the car lot but it's better than a derelict industrial site where segments of society go to sleep off whatever they've ingested.
-The Waterfront committee has put the road connection to the Central Avenue overpass into their active discussions. It makes sense since their next major projects will be the Pool 6 lands and the Mining Centre startup has been reported in the news.
-The rumour mill has Homesense closing up shop at Intercity and relocating to the retail space being built with the hotel at the Superstore. The same rumour has H&M moving into Homesense's location.

[F. Lionel]

Joe Bova has imposed a June 30th deadline for announcing the successful hotelier, and claims he has been talking with several different hotel chains about putting a four-star hotel on the waterfront. He also said a market analysis revealed there is room in Thunder Bay for a four-star hotel (no surprise there) and that other hotel projects in the city will not affect this one.

Condo sales are supposed to start in about 5 weeks time, and construction will begin when 60% of the units are sold. The Resolve Group said they already have more interest than units available.

I heard an advertisement on the radio for the Country Clubs condos this morning. They've already sold half of their units apparently.

The waterfront condos will be under construction by the fall if they only need 60% of the units to be sold. Take that naysayers. :P With that argument put to bed they'll have to move on to the next one.

[TbayON]

Like the addition to Silvertree in the North End this is just another rehash of a plan from the 1990s. Good to see it come to fruition and get some more tax dollar returns on the insane infrastructure investments the city has made in Neebing. It does mark 8 different housing developments currently happening within the city (not including the Country Club or Marina condos). I wonder how many total lots are going to be available for purchase in the city by this time next year?

It was on the plan in '87 when my parents built out there. Shore Bay Estates in proposing the subdivision this time, not sure who it was last time. It marks the third potential development in that area alone, along with the next phase of Mount Forest and the proposal for the small subdivision by the FWCC. I agree that it will make use of the infrastructure upgrades the city made, but I think it is going to undoubtedly introduce others. The biggest will be congestion issues on Hwy 61. The province has actually attempted to dump that stretch of Hwy 61 on the city because they know what is coming and re-route 61 to Hwy 11/17 near Twin City Crossroads.

The city needs more lots on the market. The current inventory of lots is not enough and is part of the reason housing starts are slow so far this year. I would be surprised if this latest subdivision was ready for building on by the end of next year. Di Gregorio is going to try and fill Parkdale before he opens up Mount Forest and behind Nor-wester View School last I heard.

I remember you talking about this in the past and seem to remember seeing a map you had created. Care to repost it? A limited LRT operating in this city is a good idea since it is so much more spread out that most similar-sized Canadian and American cities.

I would like to see it too if you still have it Vid.

-The Waterfront committee has put the road connection to the Central Avenue overpass into their active discussions. It makes sense since their next major projects will be the Pool 6 lands and the Mining Centre startup has been reported in the news.

Are there any timelines attached to these next phases of the project?

-The rumour mill has Homesense closing up shop at Intercity and relocating to the retail space being built with the hotel at the Superstore. The same rumour has H&M moving into Homesense's location.

It make sense for Homesense to get out of there, they are kind of hidden away in the corner. I am surprised that Target wouldn't try and snatch up the space occupied by Homesense and enlarge their foot print. That Zellers store isn't that big compared with Target locations you see in the states.

I am also surprised there hasn't been more action across from Superstore just yet. I wasn't expecting walls to be up by now, but I was expecting a contractor or two to start screwing around in the lot by now. The developer seemed pretty anxious to get going ASAP on the hotel. It is only the middle of April though and I'm sure things will be happening there in May latest.

I heard an advertisement on the radio for the Country Clubs condos this morning. They've already sold half of their units apparently.

The waterfront condos will be under construction by the fall if they only need 60% of the units to be sold. Take that naysayers. :P With that argument put to bed they'll have to move on to the next one.

Many of the Country Club condos have been spoken for for some time now. Terra Vista is also aggressively marketing, I have seen them a few places around town now.

It would be nice if the waterfront condos started by this summer. There is a lot of pent up demand in Thunder Bay, but they should try not to fall behind the other projects going on in town. What's her name there with the Resolve Group said they have lots of serious interest, so hopefully one of the buildings will start not long after sales begin in a months time. Its interesting to note that the condo/hotel project at the waterfront there has progressed just about as fast as the TBCC condo project despite greater challenges at the waterfront to do with remediation, find a developer, transferring the land, dealing with the public and all kinds of other things the TBCC didn't have to deal with. Its proof, despite some of the public outcry, that the project has gone relatively well.

The naysayers are complaining now that the city didn't make enough money from the land sale. TBNews put in their article the city received $690 000 (which is quoted from a number the city gave years ago at the early stages of this project) and then went on to say that terms of the deal weren't released. No one actually knows what the price paid was, but because of the TBNews blunder, the complainers think now that that price is not enough for just under a hectare of land. They also still believe the hotel is fictitious and won't break ground until its announced the multiplex will go to downtown PA, but that the multiplex is a waste of money but should still go at Innova and that the stucco and the waterfront condos will be troweled in a design they don't like and they wont like that the condos will have white window pains when they should be brown with pink polka dots. None of it makes any sense, but it is what it is.

I can't believe I never thought of this idea:
http://netnewsledger.com/2012/04/13/thunder-bay-it-is-time-to-think-outside-the-box-and-dream-big/

That would be pretty neat, and intercity land is worth a lot so it could be financed partially with the sale of existing CLE grounds. I don't know exactly how it would work, but it is a worthy idea.

[vid]

It was on the plan in '87 when my parents built out there. Shore Bay Estates in proposing the subdivision this time, not sure who it was last time. It marks the third potential development in that area alone, along with the next phase of Mount Forest and the proposal for the small subdivision by the FWCC. I agree that it will make use of the infrastructure upgrades the city made, but I think it is going to undoubtedly introduce others. The biggest will be congestion issues on Hwy 61. The province has actually attempted to dump that stretch of Hwy 61 on the city because they know what is coming and re-route 61 to Hwy 11/17 near Twin City Crossroads.

You're confusing Silver Tree Estates with something else. Silver Tree is northwest of County Park. It is more commonly known as Gemstone Estates, I think, but it appears in planning documents as Silver Tree Estates or Silver Tree Subdivision.

I wouldn't be opposed to having the Provincial Government simply move Highway 61's designation to Highway 130. The remaining portion can be a city road, with the province maintaining the Airport to Harbour portion of the expressway as Highway 11B/17B.

I can't believe I never thought of this idea:
http://netnewsledger.com/2012/04/13/thunder-bay-it-is-time-to-think-outside-the-box-and-dream-big/

That would be pretty neat, and intercity land is worth a lot so it could be financed partially with the sale of existing CLE grounds. I don't know exactly how it would work, but it is a worthy idea.

I recently though of merging the Lake Superior Place project with the Event Centre, into a single, larger multi-purpose component. By combining the two and throwing in the private interest of the Lake Superior Place group, with the hockey rink component as a smaller part of the project, federal and provincial support is more likely. Throwing in the CLE would make it even more appealing. Of course, once we have that many things going on, the Pool Six site is no longer large enough.

I remember you talking about this in the past and seem to remember seeing a map you had created. Care to repost it? A limited LRT operating in this city is a good idea since it is so much more spread out that most similar-sized Canadian and American cities.

I would like to see it too if you still have it Vid.

I make maps of things like grandparents make pies. I save them all. They're too big to post here:

This is the main project, in chronological order. It predates any development announcements for Innova Park.

http://i.imgur.com/dj7Kc.png

http://i.imgur.com/88pbv.png

http://i.imgur.com/ttXz2.jpg

These are a couple other ideas:

http://i.imgur.com/uKvJV.png

http://i.imgur.com/Iuu9I.png

[F. Lionel]

I can't believe I never thought of this idea:
http://netnewsledger.com/2012/04/13/thunder-bay-it-is-time-to-think-outside-the-box-and-dream-big/

That would be pretty neat, and intercity land is worth a lot so it could be financed partially with the sale of existing CLE grounds. I don't know exactly how it would work, but it is a worthy idea.

I remember proposing and writing a short editorial for Newsledger quite some time ago proposing moving the CLE away from its cramped quarters at Intercity. (Don't recall the specific date but I was still married at the time and I haven't been that way for half a decade now). I had suggested moving it to Innova Park since the development then was limited. I had based the concept on the Minnesota State Fairgrounds in Minneapolis/St. Paul and the Exhibition grounds in Winnipeg outside the Perimeter. I still stand by my belief that the CLE should be moved elsewhere permanently: perhaps to the old Riverview Raceway grounds or the northwest corner of the Thunder Bay and Harbour Expressways? Doesn't really matter where to move them to so long as enough ground is left have a proper midway, permanent exhibition buildings, a racetrack/grandstand area, and livestock barns (it is an agricultural fair afterall). They could even build a permanent new milk bottle just like the CLE had all those many decades ago.
Add a temporary transit station to be used for a special route that is in service only for the CLE or other major events and you've got yourself a new fairground and new freed up space in the Intercity core for commercial or high-density residential. Win-Win.

[F. Lionel]

Are there any timelines attached to these next phases of the project?

It make sense for Homesense to get out of there, they are kind of hidden away in the corner. I am surprised that Target wouldn't try and snatch up the space occupied by Homesense and enlarge their foot print. That Zellers store isn't that big compared with Target locations you see in the states.

I am also surprised there hasn't been more action across from Superstore just yet. I wasn't expecting walls to be up by now, but I was expecting a contractor or two to start screwing around in the lot by now. The developer seemed pretty anxious to get going ASAP on the hotel. It is only the middle of April though and I'm sure things will be happening there in May latest.

There are no timelines attached to anything on the Waterfront right now I think. It is nice to know that the committee is starting those discussions now rather than tacking them onto other conversations later. Alternate access to the park is going to become essential very soon. In fact I wouldn't be too surprised if that need became sadly apparent just in time for the Canada Day celebrations this year. It'll give the crazies something else to crown about.

As for Intercity mall - apparently Target has approached Redcliff about taking possession of the entire corner that houses Ardene's, Hallmark, Shaw, etc. Redcliff had to turn them down because there is nowhere else to move those merchants without a major capital investment in the mall. Target has other tricks up its sleeve yet - the mall already has an exemption from the parking space bylaw. There's a bit of space over near Isabel that Target can expand themselves in to without loosing too much parking.

[F. Lionel]

I make maps of things like grandparents make pies. I save them all. They're too big to post here:

This is the main project, in chronological order. It predates any development announcements for Innova Park.

http://i.imgur.com/dj7Kc.png

http://i.imgur.com/88pbv.png

http://i.imgur.com/ttXz2.jpg

These are a couple other ideas:

http://i.imgur.com/uKvJV.png

http://i.imgur.com/Iuu9I.png

Man - I love maps. Cartography was my favourite course in University. You do a great job artistically too, I must say.

http://i.imgur.com/uKvJV.png

This is a great concept - the Red line is great (a seasonal extension to Wild Goose would be a nice touch). The green line - I would suggest having it branch off at Kirkland rather than Lake Superior Place. In my head I would envision it using a portion of the former trestle right of way before it turned west next to the TBayTel property and entered the University. There could be a stop right by Pioneer Ridge. The route could also follow the Ford Street right-of-way after the college and approached Westfort from the east. It could also be extended with stops at Bombardier and Resolute.