[LouisianaRush]

I have just finished reading a fantastic book called The United States of Europe The new superpower and the end of American supremacy

It is a must read for the Generation E crowd. It was written by an American who moved to Europe. He is trying show how most of the U.S. is ignoring European unification and how it is affecting us and the world. After reading this book I have a new found trust and hope for the EU.

[Mazepa]

That would be terrible. Hopefully EU will never become anything near a united country. A loose alliance is all it should be. Single currency is a bit too much as it is.

:(

[Grumpy]

After reading this book I have a new found trust and hope for the EU.

There wil never be a so called one European super nation.
The EU as a trade organisation is fine but that is enough imo (I already lost my national currency)...

I know the Blue Army here (...) is going to be cheerful to read threads like these, not me.
Isn't the EU not becoming another monkey of the USA ?

[Exarchus]

Isn't the EU not becoming another monkey of the USA ?

Yeah it does.

For a part because some countries:

1st: See the USA as an extension of their culture and are reminded the good old times of their empire.

2nd: Are still terrorised by the idea of Soviet tanks rolling on their capitals and support everything from the other side of the atlantic. Including illegal jails were people were imprisoned without charges.


Now I take cover because the Blue Army is gonna try to nuke me.

[Nexus6]

http://www.pollyplatt.com/images/ChappatteCartoon030826A.gif

[Jonas]

EC was established as a common market and this idea is truly great. Some further integration of particular areas is fine but I see no need (and more importantly possibility) to move towards political integration (hence something what could be called "United States of Europe" as the topic title is suggesting :rolleyes: ).

What EU should establish as their No.1 priority is competitiveness of the markets because we seem to be lagging further and further behind USA and eventually (will be lagging) behind many Asian countries (we already are, compared to some of them).

[Mazepa]

Actually if EU does move into this direction, it will resemble Soviet Union in some ways. Fake "soviet" man, created out of 30+ nationalities, is what would become of a "European" man. Well, perhaps this would be the only similarity, but still :D

[Swede]

^Once again people are confusing nation with country. Should the EU move from confederacy (today) to federal (USE) it will in no way mean creating a new nation to replace the old ones. Nation is more of a cultural concept and going Borg and merging all the European cultures is just plain ludicrus - I guess that's why anti-EU people often mention it when discussing a closer, more democratic Union.
The first reforms that have to take place wether or not we're gonna move towards a USE is incresing the democratic input in the EU - this is easily done by moving as much power as possible from the Comission and the shadowy Council of Ministers to the Parliament. Few EU citizens realize that most EU power actually lies with the national goverments! the CoM is where it's at, the Parliament is still sadly lacking in power. But any reform to change that and give the ones elected specifically for the EU level power over the EU is usually rejected on the grounds that it's creating either a USE (by left-wingers) or a new Soviet Union (by right-wingers).

[pricemazda]

Yeah it does.

For a part because some countries:

1st: See the USA as an extension of their culture and are reminded the good old times of their empire.

2nd: Are still terrorised by the idea of Soviet tanks rolling on their capitals and support everything from the other side of the atlantic. Including illegal jails were people were imprisoned without charges.


Now I take cover because the Blue Army is gonna try to nuke me.

Stop peddling your prejudices. France has always tried to shape Europe in its own image, De Gaulle certainly viewed it as an extension of France. The UK and others are actually better europeans than France who has one of the worst records in actually implementing EU law.

Detritus, most people in the UK want a more independent foreign policy, hell even Margaret Thatcher had arguments with Reagan.

Anyway the USE won't happen with a signing of a treaty and overnight all 25 nations disappear. It will occur gradually, so one day we will look back and realise we are basically operating as one country.

But Swede is right their is a difference between nation and state, the UK is a good example of this we have a multi-national state with Welsh, English, Scottish and Northern Irish all being the constituent nations that make up the UK state.

You can have more than one identity, I am English, British and European.

[Exarchus]

There is something great here. It's "stop peddling your prejudices" and puting "France has always been trying to shape Europe in its own image" right next to it.

You know, Britain has never been interested in Europe. It's only goal is to build a "free trade zone", so you can say whatever you want people were cheering in Britain when France (and The Netherlands) turned the constitutional treaty down. Why do you think Blair postponed (until forever?) the referendum? Because he would have lost, and it's more convenient to use France as the boogeyman. But it takes more than that to fool people. Why do you think Britain is so favourable to the Turkish membership. Do you believe any second a political union with a country having the most powerful demographic of the Union and one of the poorest not to mention most of it is in asia will be possible?

Anyway: http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/344161.asp

[pricemazda]

You don't think that the UK in the past was used as the boogeyman on EU issues.

Lets take the recent decision on removing the veto on Justice and Home Affairs, before Blair the UK would have been screaming from the rooftops, threatening walkouts and vetos. This allowed other member states who were just as hostile to whatever the proposal to stay quiet and let the UK govt take the flak.

But now, its Germany that pulled the plug on JHA. All I am saying is that the UK isn't the bad european that people like to think we are.

France and Germany take the longest to transpose EU law, they have the most cases in the ECJ against them. The UK is near the top of the list of implementing EU law.

My point is, that the picture is much more mixed than you would like to believe.

[Mercutio]

Yeah it does.

For a part because some countries:

1st: See the USA as an extension of their culture and are reminded the good old times of their empire.

2nd: Are still terrorised by the idea of Soviet tanks rolling on their capitals and support everything from the other side of the atlantic. Including illegal jails were people were imprisoned without charges.There is something great here. It's "stop peddling your prejudices" and puting "France has always been trying to shape Europe in its own image" right next to it.

You know, Britain has never been interested in Europe. It's only goal is to build a "free trade zone", so you can say whatever you want people were cheering in Britain when France (and The Netherlands) turned the constitutional treaty down. Why do you think Blair postponed (until forever?) the referendum? Because he would have lost, and it's more convenient to use France as the boogeyman. But it takes more than that to fool people. Why do you think Britain is so favourable to the Turkish membership. Do you believe any second a political union with a country having the most powerful demographic of the Union and one of the poorest not to mention most of it is in asia will be possible?Stop trying to blame Britain. There is nothing to stop France and Germany (and whichever other countries want to join...) from dissolving their nationhood and becoming one. However I see no enthusiasm for that idea in either country. France has recently voted against the EU Constitution and now persues a policy of "economic patriotism" which is totally contrary to the spirit and letter of the EU's single market.

Britain has become a very good European. We have paid more into the EU budget than any other country aside from Germany. We were one of the only countries that opened up full and immediate freedom for citizens from the new EU members to work/settle here in Britain. Britons own more properties in other EU states than the citizens of any other country. We have established the best transport links with the rest of the EU. We do not protect our companies from foreign takeovers - we respect the single market ideal.

And I think it's France's relations with the US that are unhealthy - not Britain's. Britain sees the US as an ally and a fellow democrat. France's combination of ingratitude for American protection, envy of her success and power, and pointless bloody-minded hostility, seems totally counter-productive. Why do the French see hostility to America as a necessary part of being "European"? I have never understood why agreeing with America somehow compromises your independence. Is France really saying that the only independent foreign policy stance is anti-American? That's absurd!!

And I want to bring Turkey into the EU not to destroy it but to save it from economic decline. Europe faces a formidable economic challenge from America and Asia and the best way to meet that challenge is to give our companies, especially our manufacturers, the opportunity to seek the lowest possible costs within our own customs borders. Europe's problem is not its' lack of political integration but its' lack of economic dynamism.

[FREKI]

The EU is a lose agreement and should NEVER turn into more than that...

I'm first and foremost Danish, then Scandinavian and then European, no way in heck that is going to change in my lifetime!

Now a unified Scandinavia - that would be somewhat accepable, if the royal families somehow could remain their titles and land!

[Oberleutnant]

As Swede explained it, nothing is going to happen to your Danish identity with further integration. EU is a sum of its member states and nowhere majority of the people wish it to become United States of Europe - there's no reason for anyone to jump to the barricades and claim there is so some sort of conspiracy to turn us all into European zombies, who hum Ode to Joy and stand proudly under the waving blue-yellow flag of stars.

Whenever discussion turns to EU people's opinions get highly polarized. If we streamline the bureaucracy and the bloated decision-making apparatus that's only good. There's no way EU should be in this condition as it is now. In the long run it's only going to have stagnating effect on everything. Personally, my biggest gripe is the agricultural subsidies. Instead of handing out huge sums of money to farmers in France and Poland, that money could be well invested in R&D, for example.

If my four weeks in student exchange have proven me anything, it's that I'm European first and foremost by mindset. Especially the young urban people, no matter where from the "western world" they come from, they're greatly alike. My home country is the only place where I would want to live for a longer time and I love it a lot, but it doesn't stop me from having several identities: Finnish and European.

[LouisianaRush]

I believe I am a Louisianan 1st and an American 2nd. Many people across the country believe the same way (especially Texas). I have not lost my heritage, but I enjoy all the benefits of the United States.

[Accura]

If Europe became one nation, imagine how much terrorism there would be from people who want to become indpendant again. Europe doesnt need those kind of problems. We have suffered enough over the past few centuries.


Its nice to trash the Americans as a united Europe in the golf though ;)

[dimondpark]

Interesting topic.

How has Europe's economy performed since the inception of the EU?

HoustonRush,
I am an American first. I do not believe that California would have attracted the millions of people from around the world(including my family)nor would it be the social bellweather and economic titan that it has become were it not part of the United States.

[Mazepa]

I believe I am a Louisianan 1st and an American 2nd. Many people across the country believe the same way (especially Texas). I have not lost my heritage, but I enjoy all the benefits of the United States.

That's absolutely irrelevent here. American states are like regions within any and every country in Europe. For instance Bavaria, in Germany, would be like your Texas in U.S.

[Swede]

^It is not irrelevant. It is not a perfect analogy, but it is valid. Another good one would be Canada - Quebec vs the rest. A very distinct cultural difference.
However, your US/Germany - Texas/Bavaria one is good too :) There are many levels to identity and culture, in the end MY identity is up to ME and when two cultures are two seperate cultures or merely sub-cultures is a matter of perspective and opinion. Even the "nation" concept is a social construct.

@Mr D - a united Scandinavia, or better, Nordica would be great. If Norway and Iceland join the EU and Sweden and Finland join NATO we'd already be there in most ways.

@accura - Again nation does not equal country/state. Just because Europe is today dominated by nation-states doesn't mean this is the only way things can be. Also, don't make the mistake of thinking nationhood is static, cultures and perceptions of it change.
Further, to say we'd have seperatist terrorists all over the continent is way to grim IMO and misses one of the core principles in the EU - Human Rights (one of which is democracy). Terrorism is at its very core irrational, but ita twisted logic is usually defeated when given an opportunity to gain independence thru peaceful means (like referendi). And even when the referendi aren't respected things can be peaceful anyway (like when Åland wasn't made Swedish despite its people voting for that, it's an autonomus part of Finland and it's worked out pretty damn good).

[Mazepa]

The question is, do people of EU member countries are ready to put their Europeanunion identity over their national one? ;)

[Grumpy]

The question is, do people of EU member countries are ready to put their Europeanunion identity over their national one? ;)

:hell: Me never ! Flemish & Belgian thats what counts for me.

I don't care what is going on in other so called European countries

[Exarchus]

To inform you, Michael Bagdasaryan, a founder of a discussion group on the Armenian Genocide, died in Eastern Turkey during his vacations there.
Even if it was very hard to believe, and we're trying very hard to find out it's wrong... for now it isn't. I hope it's just a jerk making a very bad prank...

The reasons of the death aren't known either, if it is an accident or something else. I don't want to jump on conclusions.

I just hope it's a fucking prank from some child.

[SHiRO]

That's absolutely irrelevent here. American states are like regions within any and every country in Europe. For instance Bavaria, in Germany, would be like your Texas in U.S.
The laws in American states differ more then the laws between EU members states. In that respect your analogy is totally off.
I also would say that there is as much an European culture as there is an American culture.

[Oberleutnant]

here are many levels to identity and culture, in the end MY identity is up to ME and when two cultures are two seperate cultures or merely sub-cultures is a matter of perspective and opinion. Even the "nation" concept is a social construct.

Exactly.

I'm sure as hell that my mindset has more in common with an average urban young university student from most European countries than an average redneck from northeastern Finland.


Me never ! Flemish & Belgian thats what counts for me.

What exactly does it mean being Flemish? Are Limburgians of Belgium the same as the Limburgians on the Netherlands? If I take a walk down the Via Regia road and cross the Albertkanaal are the people in Veldwezelt extremely different there than in Maastricht, for example?

To find out that some people in Central Europe, a place where you can drive in three different nations in less than 40 minutes, harbour extremely regionalistic attitudes - many stronger than what I've come across in Northern Europe - was a big surprise to me. You would expect it to be the complete opposite. As I see it, there aren't really any borders at all here. It's so unique compared to any other part of the world and everyone here should understand to take full advantage of this special thing.

We're all Europeans and whatever we do also affects the rest of us and people elsewhere on this continent, be it better or for worse.

[LouisianaRush]

That's absolutely irrelevent here. American states are like regions within any and every country in Europe. For instance Bavaria, in Germany, would be like your Texas in U.S.

Yes they are regions now, but before they joined some were sovereign republics, kingdoms, or states. I see Europe now as the United States was before we drafted the Constitution. Each state had a different currencies, military institutions, and laws before the constitution. Even today laws, culture, income taxes, language, and government vary greatly from state to state.

I know European countries will never be like our states but a united Europe has it advantages. Because of the EU, the Euro is stronger and used more than the Dollar. The EU has become the de facto global policeman for regulating agricultural, industrial, and financial products, and the EU is now the largest common market. Also, European anti-trust laws can make or break a merger.

Is the term Generation E used commonly in Europe today? Or was it exaggerated by the author?

[Mazepa]

I'm been in U.S. from northernmost point bordering Canada in New-York state, down to Florida and in every state in between. I haven't observed any significant difference, in fact, besides the weather change as you go south, there's really no difference. Which is not the case in Europe. Romania and Norway, where to begin listing the differences?

It would make more sense to then speak of United Countries of North America, which would include Mexico and Canada.

There's just too much cultural differences between every European country. It's not the same as comparing immigrant groups of various backgrounds in U.S., because in America these groups sooner or later assimilate into what is called an American. There will never be such thing as simply "European", even if EU one day will include entire Europe.

As to economical advantages, they are there and I'm all for it. But it doesn't have to include any further political and state integration.

:)

[Yankee]

The EU is more than an economic union already. And it is, indeed, trying to achieve further integration, one day political if God is with Europe. Otherwise, why did European lawyers and politicians worked so hard all these years to craft the incredible European Constitution, that I admire so much and that would have changed Europe significantly and would have precipitated it to much further integration had it not been rejected.

In my opinion, the rejection of the EU Constitution was by far the worst thing to happen to the continent of Europe since World War II. Personally, I don't see a way for it to be revived at this point. Some suggest to change it and subject it to a vote again... I don't think that would work, that Constitution was rejected by people who hadn't even read it, to people who, in their attempt to send a messege of dissatisfation to their own government, took the rest of Europe down with them. The only way I see this Constitution revived is if it just got subjected to referendums again 10 years or so from now when, hopefully, attitudes across certain parts of the Union will have changed. Changing the Constitution is not an option, it is already a genious piece of legislation as it is.

As I said, that was the biggest setback the EU had ever encountered as it ultimately thwarted a fundamental step toward creating a country, be it a federation, a confederation, a union, a nation or whatever you may choose to call it - drafting and approving its own constitution. Just imagine if the 13 colonies had issues like that when they individually voted on the U.S. Constitution. It would have presented such a huge issue that we might even ponder whether or not the U.S. would have been able to win the Revolutionary War... The importance of a Constitution is tremendous.

And as far as comparing the U.S. to the EU goes... Well, I'd say if Europe had a Texas, it is France.

[Swede]

@HoustonRush- "Generation E" is something I don't think I've ever heard before.

@SHiRO - I think it's sad that so few people realize that US laws differ more from state to state than laws differ in the EU from state to state. One particular area this is true is the open borders for trade! Thanks to the EU's inception as a common market that area has been opened up to the point where it is more of a common market (regulations-wise) than the US...


@Yankee - God? Europe is the godless continent if you please ;)
Personally I think the constitution should be broken up into a few smaller bits. That way there'd be a more focused debate for each part instead of the "OMG! they're forcing a USE on us and trying to destroy our way of life/culture/wipe out our people/nation!!!!" that some still feel it was all about (especially in the UK and the Nordic countries). In fact many of the issues critics have with the EU would have been adressed to a fair extent in the now failed constitution e.g., the democracy defecit would have been lessend by power being moved from the Council of Ministers to the European Parliament as well as more issues being done by qualified majority rather than consensus in the CoM.

@Mazepa - I never left NYC when I was in the US, but I noticed quite a lot of cultural diffrences. I lived in a cheap hotel at the edge of Chinatown, and going just 2-3 blocks ment either all the signs in English (with Italian names) to all the signs in Chinese. Even the streetlife was of a whole different character.

[one very bored guy]

I'm been in U.S. from northernmost point bordering Canada in New-York state, down to Florida and in every state in between. I haven't observed any significant difference, in fact, besides the weather change as you go south, there's really no difference. Which is not the case in Europe. Romania and Norway, where to begin listing the differences?

It would make more sense to then speak of United Countries of North America, which would include Mexico and Canada.

There's just too much cultural differences between every European country. It's not the same as comparing immigrant groups of various backgrounds in U.S., because in America these groups sooner or later assimilate into what is called an American. There will never be such thing as simply "European", even if EU one day will include entire Europe.

As to economical advantages, they are there and I'm all for it. But it doesn't have to include any further political and state integration.

:)

This is a very valid point, but also keep in mind that many Nations in Europe have great cultural differences within the single country.

Belgium is split between the Flanders and Walloons. Spain is split between the Main Spanish core and the basque region and Catalonia (with people wanting to split from the main country), Switzerland is split three ways itself. The UK has large divisions between Scotland, Wales and England etc etc.

This is not only seen in Europe. Canada is clearly split into two very different cultural regions.

Culture and language itself is not a defining point for nationhood. In fact, what really is?

[downtown_meltdown]

I'm not going to say anything without first reading the book (If I manage to get my hands on it), but i would just like to remind, that the EU has already surpassed the USoA in many areas, predominantly the abundance of welfare, taxes, regulation, and so forth. So all the socialists of all shapes and forms (including individuals who claim, that paying larger (and large) taxes is in fact better for you, because you will get more out of them, than if you had the money in your pocket) needn't fear. The future is bright. For them.

[The Dear Leader]

Does anybody have a source for that laws claim?

[Exarchus]

Maybe I'm a communist, but the disabled homeless I gave 30€ in Budapest in 2004 (missing an arm, two legs and one eye) made a better use of them than my pocket.

[pricemazda]

@Yankee

The Constitution wasn't even a constitution in the way the US constitution is. Over 2/3ds was simply a redrafting of the existing treaties, to simplify and make clearer the current way of working.

Only 1/3 contained bew reforms to the existing EU structures as in more power for the European Parliament, holding Council of Minister votes in public, allowing citizen intiative bills.

If anything the constitution was a much more balanced document than any of the preceeding treaties.

@Downtown, who do you think is going to pay for the record US budget deficit? That's right you in the form of higher taxes, I bet those tax cuts don't seem so good now do they?

But anyway, tax rates vary wildly from EU member state to member state. Sweden has some of the highest taxes in the EU, but has a great economy, low unemployment, good growth, low inflation, low interest rates and some of the world's best known companies. So if I were you I wouldn't believe everything you think about European economies. Sweden shows you can combine social justice and economic growth.

[SHiRO]

I'm been in U.S. from northernmost point bordering Canada in New-York state, down to Florida and in every state in between. I haven't observed any significant difference, in fact, besides the weather change as you go south, there's really no difference. Which is not the case in Europe. Romania and Norway, where to begin listing the differences?
I couldn't agree less.
I just got back from a 3 week roadtrip from NYC to Miami and you are trying to tell me someone from NY isn't as different from someone from rural Georgia as for example a Fin is from a Spaniard?
If you ask me someone from southern Europe has very much more in common with someone from northern Europe as a New Yorker has with a Georgian or an Alaskan with a Texan.



There's just too much cultural differences between every European country. It's not the same as comparing immigrant groups of various backgrounds in U.S., because in America these groups sooner or later assimilate into what is called an American. There will never be such thing as simply "European", even if EU one day will include entire Europe.
What a narrow minded view. We watch the same tv, the same sports, eat the same foods, share the same politics, the same currency, lifestyles, largely share the same values and most importantly share the same history and culture. There will never be such a thing as European? Speak for yourself!
It's already a reality, perhaps one you don't recognise yet, but still very much so.
Maybe you should travel more, I never feel more European when abroad in a non European country surrounded by non Europeans and Europeans visiting there alike. It's like you somehow know what's going on with the other Europeans because you share so much with them already.

[SHiRO]

The EU is more than an economic union already. And it is, indeed, trying to achieve further integration, one day political if God is with Europe. Otherwise, why did European lawyers and politicians worked so hard all these years to craft the incredible European Constitution, that I admire so much and that would have changed Europe significantly and would have precipitated it to much further integration had it not been rejected.

In my opinion, the rejection of the EU Constitution was by far the worst thing to happen to the continent of Europe since World War II. Personally, I don't see a way for it to be revived at this point. Some suggest to change it and subject it to a vote again... I don't think that would work, that Constitution was rejected by people who hadn't even read it, to people who, in their attempt to send a messege of dissatisfation to their own government, took the rest of Europe down with them. The only way I see this Constitution revived is if it just got subjected to referendums again 10 years or so from now when, hopefully, attitudes across certain parts of the Union will have changed. Changing the Constitution is not an option, it is already a genious piece of legislation as it is.
I agree. But all is not lost, this simply means that integration is going to take a longer time then necessary. Good observation about the rejection by people who haven't even read (never mind understand) the treaty.



As I said, that was the biggest setback the EU had ever encountered as it ultimately thwarted a fundamental step toward creating a country, be it a federation, a confederation, a union, a nation or whatever you may choose to call it - drafting and approving its own constitution. Just imagine if the 13 colonies had issues like that when they individually voted on the U.S. Constitution. It would have presented such a huge issue that we might even ponder whether or not the U.S. would have been able to win the Revolutionary War... The importance of a Constitution is tremendous.
The constitution was important, but don't forget it was just another treaty, it was not something fundamental to the existance of the EU or the further intergration of Europe. It just would have made things so much more easier and transparent, not to mention democratic. When people start to vote against more democracy, you know something isn't right...:(



And as far as comparing the U.S. to the EU goes... Well, I'd say if Europe had a Texas, it is France.
Nah, it's Poland...;)

[Exarchus]

I don't know what he means by comparing France to Texas. If he talks about land he's right. But about politic Poland is indeed Texas' twin separated at birth.

[Simcoe]

It would make more sense to then speak of United Countries of North America, which would include Mexico and Canada.


:)

No. That would certainly not be popular in Canada. I don't think there is the
need to give a blanket name, especially one with "United" and "America" in it, which is just too similar to the "United States of America".

[downtown_meltdown]

Maybe I'm a communist, but the disabled homeless I gave 30€ in Budapest in 2004 (missing an arm, two legs and one eye) made a better use of them than my pocket.

Good for you. Really. But too bad, you don't distinguish between voluntary charity, and extortion-like high taxes. Social technocrats, in general, tend to treat people like statistical phenomena. I.e.: if you give 30€ to someone disabled it is good. If you give 30 milion to a government organization helping the disabled, it is a milion times better. I, OTOH, treat people like unique individuals. Whether a 30€ will help someone, or not, is a dillema to solve by the owner of this 30€. Besides, you cannot give something, that doesn't belong to you.

[downtown_meltdown]

[...] But about politic Poland is indeed Texas' twin separated at birth.

This one blew my mind. I'm really eager to hear your rationale behind it.

[tradlak]

Actually Swede Canada consists of several distinct nations: Ontario (multi-cultural, liberal, progressive, urban), Quebec (French), Maritimes, Prairies, Alberta (similar culture to Texas) and BC (similiar culture to Cali and Washington State. These states are now actually moving towards a looser confederation because the federal government consistently ignores their yearnings in its quest for a powerful centralized government that gives power hungry politicians a big boner.

Bigger is not better in this case - hold on to your national identities Europe!

[The Dear Leader]

But anyway, tax rates vary wildly from EU member state to member state. Sweden has some of the highest taxes in the EU, but has a great economy, low unemployment, good growth, low inflation, low interest rates and some of the world's best known companies. So if I were you I wouldn't believe everything you think about European economies. Sweden shows you can combine social justice and economic growth.

Youth unemployment is at 25% in Sweden.

Anyway, we've been thru this discussion a million times. All westerners share certain similarities but the differences between a "regular" Spaniard and a regular Finn are bigger than the differences between a Texan and a Pennsylvanian (eg).

[SrbijaCG]

What do you consider "youth"?
My cousion is 14 , young and "youthful", as well as jobless....but thats how it should be because he's still in school.

Youth = 18 - XX ?

[SrbijaCG]

"This is not only seen in Europe. Canada is clearly split into two very different cultural regions."

Correction...three.
English West and Maritimes, French Quebec...but there's also a growing number of natives who are for the first time enjoying very high birth rates & profits from oil/gas wealth up in the northern territories.

[The Dear Leader]

What do you consider "youth"?
My cousion is 14 , young and "youthful", as well as jobless....but thats how it should be because he's still in school.

Youth = 18 - XX ?

It probably refers to people under a certain age (25 or something like that) who get state benefits. Of course they don't considler toddlers to be unemployed... :rolleyes:

Sweden's been hiding that unemployment by just putting them in state sponsored work programs, which means that they lose their designation of being unemployed.

[Ceres]

In America we are a step to create the new photonic computer and make obsolete all the electronic technology...

photonics is the XXIst century, American Supremacy.

[Ceres]

I'm been in U.S. from northernmost point bordering Canada in New-York state, down to Florida and in every state in between. I haven't observed any significant difference, in fact, besides the weather change as you go south, there's really no difference. Which is not the case in Europe. Romania and Norway, where to begin listing the differences?

It would make more sense to then speak of United Countries of North America, which would include Mexico and Canada.

There's just too much cultural differences between every European country. It's not the same as comparing immigrant groups of various backgrounds in U.S., because in America these groups sooner or later assimilate into what is called an American. There will never be such thing as simply "European", even if EU one day will include entire Europe.

As to economical advantages, they are there and I'm all for it. But it doesn't have to include any further political and state integration.

:)



Im agree with this.... a United NorthAmerica is almost unstoppable.

[The Dear Leader]

In America we are a step to create the new photonic computer and make obsolete all the electronic technology...

photonics is the XXIst century, American Supremacy.

Photonics? I think you need something like this instead:

http://www.glo-brothers.com/ebay/other/hooked-on-phonics.jpg

[apbest]

This one blew my mind. I'm really eager to hear your rationale behind it.

look at your signature for the answer to that one

[clarky2005]

Double post

[clarky2005]

To be one country All the EU nations including France should be made to speak English.

[Exarchus]

And they say France sees Europe as an extension of itself.

[downtown_meltdown]

Is the term Generation E used commonly in Europe today? Or was it exaggerated by the author?

I'd never heard it, before you mentioned. Here in Poland I've heard about Generation: X, Y, JPII, H and degeneration X.

[downtown_meltdown]

look at your signature for the answer to that one

I know, what I postulate, doofus. Still I don't see how that makes Poland similar to Texas.

[clarky2005]

And they say France sees Europe as an extension of itself.
The EU flag should look something like this then:)
http://tinypic.com/2ufr0jp.jpg

[SHiRO]

Yeah all westerns (in general) share certain similarities, but my point is that all Europeans (again in general) also share certain similarities not shared by other westerners and in particular not by Americans (...in general...).
One just has to look at certain laws and general attitutes to see that this is true.
There definately exists a shared European culture stemming from the shared history and contemporary culture as well (everything ranging from tv to sports to politics etc even cars and food).
I would NOT agree the average Fin is more different from a Spaniard then an average Pennsylvanian is from an average Texan and I just had 3 weeks that reinforced my views in this matter greatly.

Now more then ever, people who continue to deny the existance of a shared European culture need to get out more...

[Balth]

But anyway, tax rates vary wildly from EU member state to member state. Sweden has some of the highest taxes in the EU, but has a great economy, low unemployment, good growth, low inflation, low interest rates and some of the world's best known companies. So if I were you I wouldn't believe everything you think about European economies. Sweden shows you can combine social justice and economic growth.

Sweden has the highest taxes in the world, >1M people unemployed and jobless growth.

Sure we have some known companies, but they were created a long time ago. There's no way a company could flourish and grow that way today. In Sweden, that is.

I'd say one of the main reasons to this situation are the taxes.

[Exarchus]

The EU flag should look something like this then:)
http://tinypic.com/2ufr0jp.jpg


We don't put our flag on the corner. We rather add the stuff in the center of it.

[The Dear Leader]

To be one country All the EU nations including France should be made to speak English.

And Deutsch!

Clarky, I'll get you a copy of "DeutschPlus" for Christmas. That way you can correspond with ze Germans in their native tongue.

[The Dear Leader]

Now more then ever, people who continue to deny the existance of a shared European culture need to get out more...

Again, your typical condescending attitude.

What Europe is lacking, and what the US has, is a sense of nationhood. Regardless of whether you're a redneck hick, or a gay New Yorker, you consider yourself to be an American and you're usually proud of that. I don't see what I have in common with hardcore Catholic Poles or Sicilian mobsters. I don't understand their language or share their values.

And we don't have a shared history or culture either. Parts of Europe were ruled by the Ottoman Empire for centuries. What sort of history does Germany share with a place like Bulgaria? As I said in another thread on SSC, that country might as well be located in southeast Asia (don't mean this in a derogatory way). I feel like Germany has much more in common with non-European countries like Canada or the US than with Bulgaria or other Balkan states.

So please feel free to point out the particular similarities that Germans and, say, Montenegrins or Bulgarians share (similarities which we don't share with Americans or Canadians).

[Ciekawski]

All good points. There is a similarity when it comes to the way of life in Europe - caffee shops, narrow streets, old architecture, use of public transportation (buses, trains). It is different from what you could find on average in any other continent but there is no such thing as a "shared European culture".

[SHiRO]

Again, your typical condescending attitude.
Funny how it always rears its ugly head when confronted with the typical ignorance of the usual suspects...(not meaning you but rather the influx of SSC "Europeans" not even living in Europe or outside of the EU).

What Europe is lacking, and what the US has, is a sense of nationhood. Regardless of whether you're a redneck hick, or a gay New Yorker, you consider yourself to be an American and you're usually proud of that. I don't see what I have in common with hardcore Catholic Poles or Sicilian mobsters. I don't understand their language or share their values.
Who cares about nationhood? Europe shares a lot that can act as a substitute of "nationhood". Things that go deeper then a flag or an anthem and this feeling is only growing (sad you STILL can't see this happening).
You have about as much in common with a hardcore catholic Pole as a liberal American urbanite has with a hardcore religious Kentuckian..., or a Mormon..., or an Amish person.
On the whole, there is a very much higher % of people in Europe who shares the same values with you then the % of people in the US who share values with the New York liberal. Weak argument...



And we don't have a shared history or culture either. Parts of Europe were ruled by the Ottoman Empire for centuries. What sort of history does Germany share with a place like Bulgaria?
The Ottoman Empire and the struggle against it itself is part of European history!!! Just like the Roman Empire having dominion over virtually all of Europe and INFLUENCING everything that came after it is. Christianity? The World Wars? There are millions of connections between all the European countries which together amount to a very firmly established shared history.



As I said in another thread on SSC, that country might as well be located in southeast Asia (don't mean this in a derogatory way). I feel like Germany has much more in common with non-European countries like Canada or the US than with Bulgaria or other Balkan states.
Be a sport and let's start with the countries which are established EU members OK? It all depends. I put it too you that you have much more in common with a Belgrade urbanite then you have with a Canadian living in rural Alberta.



So please feel free to point out the particular similarities that Germans and, say, Montenegrins or Bulgarians share (similarities which we don't share with Americans or Canadians).
How good you chose just about the two furthest poles possible. With one of those "poles" not even being in the EU...
But I'll play. For starters, Germany has a lot of immigrants from exactely that region. A lot of shared history too. Not too long ago the D mark was the de facto currency in Montenegro, now the Euro is. German is the most spoken foreign language there. The economic connections are already plentyfull (and neither Montenegro nor Bulgaria is part of the EU yet). What cars do you see in the streets in Sofia? What clothes do people wear? What is their favourite sport? What is Europe's nr 1 favourite snackfood (hint: it's not a hamburger).
Look at the laws in Germany and Bulgaria and compare those laws to the laws in the US. Which one is the odd one out?
I could go on for pages, but I fear it is of no use. You will just use the fact that the countries in question countries speak different languages (hasn't stopped India from being a nation) or that there are also a lot of similarities between western Europe and other western countries as "proof"...

[downtown_meltdown]

[...]
Now more then ever, people who continue to deny the existance of a shared European culture need to get out more...

Yes there is such a thing as a European culture. There was such a thing long time before the firstlings of the EU formed.

[SHiRO]

All good points. There is a similarity when it comes to the way of life in Europe - caffee shops, narrow streets, old architecture, use of public transportation (buses, trains). It is different from what you could find on average in any other continent but there is no such thing as a "shared European culture".
Haven't you guys heard SSC is up again?

Don't you find it funny how your statement obviously contradicts itself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanisation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_integration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_identity

[Ciekawski]

Don't you find it funny how your statement obviously contradicts itself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanisation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_integration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europeanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-European_identity

How so ? These links only prove I was correct. All they talk about are vague commonalities and some shared aspects of history and values. That's a far cry from "European culture". European-like values are shared in Australia or Canada, historical links are greater between the UK and Canada/Australia or between France and Quebec province than between say Germany and Bulgaria, Finland and Portugal or Ireland and Bosnia.

About the only thing they came up with was Italo Disco - quite a sad argument (yes It was big in Europe and nowhere else :D ).

[The Dear Leader]

The Ottoman Empire and the struggle against it itself is part of European history!!! Just like the Roman Empire having dominion over virtually all of Europe and INFLUENCING everything that came after it is. Christianity? The World Wars? There are millions of connections between all the European countries which together amount to a very firmly established shared history.

So according to this logic all of humanity has a shared history. African countries fought against French and British colonial forces (just like Germany fought these two countries in both WWs). Doesn't mean though that I somehow feel connected to them.

The US and Canada are firmly Christian countries as well. Again, I fail to see how we can have a set of values that can be definied as specifically European. You either look at regional values (not even national ones) or you use a broader defintion which includes all of the western world (with the exception of Japan perhaps).


Be a sport and let's start with the countries which are established EU members OK? It all depends. I put it too you that you have much more in common with a Belgrade urbanite then you have with a Canadian living in rural Alberta.

That may be the case but I still think I have even more in common with a suburbanite living in the NJ-NY-CT Tri-State-Area.


But I'll play. For starters, Germany has a lot of immigrants from exactely that region. A lot of shared history too. Not too long ago the D mark was the de facto currency in Montenegro, now the Euro is.

The dollar is the more or less official currency in a # of countries all around the world. That criterion doesn't hold much weight IMO.


What cars do you see in the streets in Sofia? What clothes do people wear? What is their favourite sport? What is Europe's nr 1 favourite snackfood (hint: it's not a hamburger).

People wear the same clothes all over the western world, they also more or less drive the same cars. Too be brutally honest though, the brands that people wear and the cars they drive don't really mean much to me. Just because a Polish homophobe drives a Golf doesn't mean that we're somehow connected.


Look at the laws in Germany and Bulgaria and compare those laws to the laws in the US. Which one is the odd one out?

Don't know, you tell me. All I know is that laws don't mean too much to some Bulgarians

[Grumpy]

Now more then ever, people who continue to deny the existance of a shared European culture need to get out more...

Are people who are not EU minded allowed to have a negative opinion ?
I've seen many places and spoken to many people but then again people do have different opinions.
Often you scare me with your vision on the EU but I respect that, please accept mine aswell thank you.

btw : do you want the EU to become a country like the USA ?

[downtown_meltdown]

Let's put things into perspective. Most European (endemic to the territory of the continent Europe) cultures differ much more from the culture of the native Americans of the tribe Navajo, or the Incas, than from one another. Of course, there are diffrences, sometimes hudge, but there are also some strong similarities and ties. Keeping in mind, the Roman Empire, The Ottoman Empire, Byzantium, Christianity, etc., there are still diffrent cultures, but more closely interwoven, than the German culture is with the tribes of North America, no matter how much sauerkraut they'd eat, or how much homosexuality they'd introduce into their paw waw's.

[SHiRO]

How so ? These links only prove I was correct. All they talk about are vague commonalities and some shared aspects of history and values. That's a far cry from "European culture". European-like values are shared in Australia or Canada, historical links are greater between the UK and Canada/Australia or between France and Quebec province than between say Germany and Bulgaria, Finland and Portugal or Ireland and Bosnia.

About the only thing they came up with was Italo Disco - quite a sad argument (yes It was big in Europe and nowhere else :D ).
You guys are having a laugh right? I mean you can't be serious!
You yourself are using an implied form of European cohesion and you are not even consiously aware of using it? European-like values. You yourself said it, now cut the crap!

if you really suggest the UK has more connections to Canada then it does to continental Europe or France has more to Quebec I really suggest you pick up a history book and learn to look past the obvious in the mean time.

No use in arguing with people who don't want to know the thruth.

I bet you don't even live in Europe...

[SHiRO]

So according to this logic all of humanity has a shared history. African countries fought against French and British colonial forces (just like Germany fought these two countries in both WWs). Doesn't mean though that I somehow feel connected to them.
What do you want me to say to such warped comparisons? This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
European countries collectively fought against the Ottomans (even before there was such a thing as a "nation state") and before the Ottoman Empire Europeans went on crusades collectively. This is all shared history, just like much of what came before and what came after. Being competitors in the colonial game is more shared history.
What African "countries" fought against Brits or French? There was no such thing...



The US and Canada are firmly Christian countries as well. Again, I fail to see how we can have a set of values that can be definied as specifically European. You either look at regional values (not even national ones) or you use a broader defintion which includes all of the western world (with the exception of Japan perhaps).
The US and Canada are christian countries because THEY ARE FORMER COLONIES of christian Europe. They did not experience christianisation and reformation just like Europe did however. Does history not exist for you or something? "Proving" to me that the US and Canada has similarities with Europe does nothing in disproving of European culture.



That may be the case but I still think I have even more in common with a suburbanite living in the NJ-NY-CT Tri-State-Area.
Sure...Then you sir are the odd one out in European culture and not the other way around.



The dollar is the more or less official currency in a # of countries all around the world. That criterion doesn't hold much weight IMO.
Then why wasn't the dollar the de facto currency in Montenegro?



People wear the same clothes all over the western world, they also more or less drive the same cars. Too be brutally honest though, the brands that people wear and the cars they drive don't really mean much to me. Just because a Polish homophobe drives a Golf doesn't mean that we're somehow connected.
Really? Then you should take a stroll through a European shopping street more often and then visit an American mall. Sure, there are some European chains which are succesfull in the US (Zara, H&M),but overall the stores are very different. In Europe these stores are commonplace and everyone from Bulgaria to Finland shops there.
While you are there also take a good look at the cars. Everyone with eyes quickly realises that in Berlin and Sofia you see Mercedes, Volkswagen and other European brands and in the US you see (surprise! surprise!) American types and brands. Do these facts mean much by themselves? Not really, but they all contribute to a common culture.
Also, I bet the US has more homophobes then Poland.



Don't know, you tell me. All I know is that laws don't mean too much to some Bulgarians
You do know and it is time you stop pretending and start admitting. Bulgaria has or is going to have the exact same laws that are required from any other EU country and all the other laws there are going to be more in line with the rest of Europe also. The US has many many laws totally out of step, I even dare say alien to German law.

[SHiRO]

Are people who are not EU minded allowed to have a negative opinion ?
I've seen many places and spoken to many people but then again people do have different opinions.
Often you scare me with your vision on the EU but I respect that, please accept mine aswell thank you.
Of course people are allowed to have a negative opinion. People shouldn't however deny facts or speak misthruths and then expect to get away with it.



btw : do you want the EU to become a country like the USA ?
No.

[Metropolitan]

Sometimes I must confess that I'm still surprised about how French people are centered on themselves. And I know what I'm talking about since I'm French by myself.

Granted, Americans are also very self-centered, but at least they have as an excuse to live in a relatively large country, isolated by oceans, and dominating its continent.

On the other side, France is a small village of what, 60 million people, in the middle of a continent of something like 800 million people which is itself located right beside Asia, the Middle East and Africa. To put it in other words, that's totally ridiculous and completely out of rationality. France is simply totally dependent on its neighbours, like any country in Europe.

What's the most insane is probably the French ceremonial TV news of 8pm. 12 million people are watching everyday since 20 years the same guy on the same channel telling them about jellyfishes on a French beach instead of nuclear developments in Iran. Any French person having seen news in other countries will understand what I mean.

It's probably because French people are so self-centered that they are totally unable to understand today's world.

[pricemazda]

I think you are being a bit harsh on your countrymen. But if you want a more European news, watch Euronews.

What is the top story on today's news in France?

On British news today the top story is that the European Commission is to give the green light to Romania and Bulgaria to join the EU.

[one very bored guy]

Youth unemployment is at 25% in Sweden.

Anyway, we've been thru this discussion a million times. All westerners share certain similarities but the differences between a "regular" Spaniard and a regular Finn are bigger than the differences between a Texan and a Pennsylvanian (eg).

Interesting. Name 10 major differences between a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in barcelona and a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in Stockholm.

[pricemazda]

But what kampflamm didn't mention is Sweden also has a 5% growth rate

[The Dear Leader]

What African "countries" fought against Brits or French? There was no such thing...

Algeria...and various other struggles for independence.


The US and Canada are christian countries because THEY ARE FORMER COLONIES of christian Europe. They did not experience christianisation and reformation just like Europe did however. Does history not exist for you or something? "Proving" to me that the US and Canada has similarities with Europe does nothing in disproving of European culture.

But that's the thing. There's western culture and then there are regional cultures (even here in Germany the north is pretty different from the staunchly Catholic south). Who cares were they got their culture from, fact of the matter is that you can't just draw a line and say "oh, that's specifically European, all other continents are excluded." I wrote this in a previous post but please tell me which sort of values Germany and Bulgaria share, values which we don't share with Canada or the US.


Sure...Then you sir are the odd one out in European culture and not the other way around.

Again, I don't think so. The suburbanite from Belgrade speaks a language I don't understand and probably has a set of values that differes a lot from mine. Most Germans probably agree with me since they're dead set against Serbian EU membership.


Really? Then you should take a stroll through a European shopping street more often and then visit an American mall. Sure, there are some European chains which are succesfull in the US (Zara, H&M),but overall the stores are very different. In Europe these stores are commonplace and everyone from Bulgaria to Finland shops there.
While you are there also take a good look at the cars. Everyone with eyes quickly realises that in Berlin and Sofia you see Mercedes, Volkswagen and other European brands and in the US you see (surprise! surprise!) American types and brands. Do these facts mean much by themselves? Not really, but they all contribute to a common culture.

As I've said before, cars and clothing do not mean that much to me, but even in this scenario there's neither a pan-European taste nor are you able to exclude NA from it. People wear American brands just like Americans wear European brands. And there were plenty of stores in France, Belgium and other countries that I've never seen in Germany. I also don't get a hard on just because I've spotted a German store somewhere in Italy.

[The Dear Leader]

Interesting. Name 10 major differences between a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in barcelona and a young typical person (aged 18-30) growing up in Stockholm.

All I need to name is 1...language.

[The Dear Leader]

But what kampflamm didn't mention is Sweden also has a 5% growth rate

I prefer Denmark's model, at least they're not hiding their unemployment rate.

[The Dear Leader]

I think you are being a bit harsh on your countrymen. But if you want a more European news, watch Euronews.

What is the top story on today's news in France?

On British news today the top story is that the European Commission is to give the green light to Romania and Bulgaria to join the EU.

I don't think the French are particularly self centered. The #1 story on German news is the ongoing debate over health care reforms within the Grand Coalition, #2 is the Transrapid accident.

[Exarchus]

What is the top story on today's news in France?


Top news on my web starting page:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3234,36-816864@51-816874,0.html

Second news:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3244,36-816837@51-816848,0.html

Third one:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3212,36-816853@51-754471,0.html

Forth one:

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3214,36-816822@51-775737,0.html

[Exarchus]

@Metropolitan

I suggest you to read newspaper like Pravda, The Sun or Der Bild.

http://www.bild.t-online.de/
http://www.thesun.co.uk/
http://english.pravda.ru/

If you believe the French are an exeption in Europe.

[pricemazda]

So you are comparing The Sun and Bild to Le Monde?

[Exarchus]

So you are comparing The Sun and Bild to Le Monde?


No, Metropolitan knows what I'm refering to.

He was talking of TF1 and the news on it (Jean Pierre Pernaut being the guy the French see for decades)


The first post, with the articles, was for you as you asked what was on the top news.

The second one was for Metropolitan. As to compare medias let's take the most followed ones.

[The Dear Leader]

What's still making headlines in Germany is the Gammelfleisch Skandal, the scandal about rotten meat being sold and exported. I guess nobody mentions Romania and Bulgaria because even within the EU people aren't exactly enthusiastic about this wave of enlargement.

[pricemazda]

Thanks Kampf, I am going to look forward to my Huhn dinner tonight...

[one very bored guy]

All I need to name is 1...language.

So what you are trying to tell me here is that all you need is a single language to define a country? So… what exactly is Belgium? Two nations? What about Spain, Switzerland, Canada etc.

[one very bored guy]

Again, I don't think so. The suburbanite from Belgrade speaks a language I don't understand and probably has a set of values that differes a lot from mine. Most Germans probably agree with me since they're dead set against Serbian EU membership.


The interesting point about Serbia is that it is quite an economically poor country. Many Germans are worried that floods of Serbians will cross into Germany and take their jobs. This has less to do with cultural differences than to do with fear.


As I've said before, cars and clothing do not mean that much to me, but even in this scenario there's neither a pan-European taste nor are you able to exclude NA from it. People wear American brands just like Americans wear European brands. And there were plenty of stores in France, Belgium and other countries that I've never seen in Germany. I also don't get a hard on just because I've spotted a German store somewhere in Italy.

And this defines a culture or country? Fashions differ across Europe no more widely than they do across the US. People in Southern Europe dress for the warmer weather, and people in Northern Europe dress for the cooler climate. Just like those in Florida dress quite different to those in Detroit. Should the US split up as a nation because of this?

[The Dear Leader]

So… what exactly is Belgium? Two nations? What about Spain, Switzerland, Canada etc.

Belgium...might fall apart at any moment and the Flemings in particular might argue that they are indeed a separate nation. Same thing applies to Spain and Canada to a certain extent. The only country that's really been able to pull off this multilingual thing is Switzerland, largely because it's so decentralized. Every canton is almost like an independent country.

However, why the hell do people have to live in the same country just because they listen to the same music or wear the same clothes, after all that's the argument that some people are putting forth in this thread.

[The Dear Leader]

And this defines a culture or country? Fashions differ across Europe no more widely than they do across the US. People in Southern Europe dress for the warmer weather, and people in Northern Europe dress for the cooler climate. Just like those in Florida dress quite different to those in Detroit. Should the US split up as a nation because of this?

As I wrote in my post, clothing isn't exactly an important factor in my opinion (contrary to other people). Americans don't see themselves as being part of a nation just because the guy in the next state's wearing the same brand of jeans. The Civil War didn't take place because southerners were fed up with the taste in clothing that northerners had.

Being part of a nation is something that you feel, perhaps a state of mind. When Spain and the UK suffered terrorist attacks, I felt bad for them, but a terrorist attack in Berlin or Munich would have been much more shocking for me.

To summarize: Using clothing, cars, music etc. to support your argument people somehow have the same strictly defined (ie solely European, not Western) culture is foolish.

[staff]

USE?
Yes, please.

[pricemazda]

Kampf, what about the UK, we are a multi lingual country.

[Exarchus]

I'm sure you people can make the distinction between countries with a few native languages (emmigration languages don't count because they don't bring nationalism with them).

And a country like what would the EU be with a full loads of "national" languages, adding the regional languages.

It's like comparing a V2 from WWII and an apocalypse dildo of 1megatons in capacity because both are ballistic missiles. The comparison is just given irrelevant because of the difference of scale.

[The Dear Leader]

Kampf, what about the UK, we are a multi lingual country.

Come on, a couple of Welsh speaking farmers do not make you a multilingual country. In that case Germany's multilingual (Sorbian, Danish) as well.

[pricemazda]

But Kampf on all official documents we have 4 languages Irish, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and English. The BBC provides radio in all languages and there is government funded by the government.

India has over 600 languages, South Africa over 30.

It is perfectly possible to have a multi linguistic state. But as the French are finding in Brussels the language all the eurocrats converse in is English.

I can see a situation where English becomes the language of business, government, academia etc while we all retain domestic languages.

[jef]

Anyway the USE won't happen with a signing of a treaty and overnight all 25 nations disappear. It will occur gradually, so one day we will look back and realise we are basically operating as one country.

No thanks.

[Exarchus]

No thanks too, leave countries following their own policy.

Thanks to the meeting Saturday between France-Germany and Russia, fuel (which I use to warm me up, since I live in the countryside) fell from 700€ to 640€ the cube metres for these very last few days... That's a call for refuelling. At least I won't freeze my balls this winter :).

[The Dear Leader]

But Kampf on all official documents we have 4 languages Irish, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and English. The BBC provides radio in all languages and there is government funded by the government.

India has over 600 languages, South Africa over 30.

It is perfectly possible to have a multi linguistic state. But as the French are finding in Brussels the language all the eurocrats converse in is English.

I can see a situation where English becomes the language of business, government, academia etc while we all retain domestic languages.

Where's the Welsh page?

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp

[The Dear Leader]

No thanks too, leave countries following their own policy.

Thanks to the meeting Saturday between France-Germany and Russia, fuel (which I use to warm me up, since I live in the countryside) fell from 700€ to 640€ the cube metres for these very last few days... That's a call for refuelling. At least I won't freeze my balls this winter :).

God bless Vladimir Putin, a true ally of Europe! :D

[pricemazda]

Where's the Welsh page?

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page1.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Language_Act_1993

[SHiRO]

Algeria...and various other struggles for independence.
Ergo, they were not countries yet...




But that's the thing. There's western culture and then there are regional cultures (even here in Germany the north is pretty different from the staunchly Catholic south). Who cares were they got their culture from, fact of the matter is that you can't just draw a line and say "oh, that's specifically European, all other continents are excluded." I wrote this in a previous post but please tell me which sort of values Germany and Bulgaria share, values which we don't share with Canada or the US.
Stop pretending that history didn't exist between 1000 BC - 1776 AD.
Stop pretending that there are no VAST regional differences in the US (or India for that matter).
Stop using the cultural similarities in the western world to deny there is also a specific European heritage/culture/shared history which goes even deeper then "western culture" (but of which it is a part of and founder if you will). Yes Bulgaria has very much more in common with Germany then the US and the gap between the US and Germany is only widening atm, while the gap between Bulgaria and the rest of Europe is narrowing. Don't let the difference in economical (and sometimes social) development fool you.




Again, I don't think so. The suburbanite from Belgrade speaks a language I don't understand and probably has a set of values that differes a lot from mine. Most Germans probably agree with me since they're dead set against Serbian EU membership.
You both speak English, but that's besides the point. I guess India being a nation is a fabrication of our fantasy to then right?
Being against Serbian membership is mostly because of political (or economical) reasons, not cultural ones.



As I've said before, cars and clothing do not mean that much to me, but even in this scenario there's neither a pan-European taste nor are you able to exclude NA from it. People wear American brands just like Americans wear European brands. And there were plenty of stores in France, Belgium and other countries that I've never seen in Germany. I also don't get a hard on just because I've spotted a German store somewhere in Italy.
It's not just clothes and cars. It's everything. Europeans are exposed to European brands, sportsteams, cars, music, tv, movies, etc etc, everyday in a far greater volume and frequency then we are exposed to even US culture. The opposite applies too. Americans are largely oblivious to these things because they are exposed to their own brands, sportsteams, movies, cars, music, tv, movies, etc.
We know eachothers politicians, we know eachothers sportsteams. Everyone knows Nestle, Danone, Riedel, Aldi, etc. We grew up watching German cartoons and British comedy. The next generation is growing up going to universities scattered all over Europe, earning European wide degrees, getting jobs all over Europe, living all over Europe. They are not going to give a shit about silly nationalism.

[pricemazda]

Even Kampf can't deny that going to the US really makes you aware of what is 'european'.

I know from my time their I realised that everything from architecture to music to fashion, to politics even us Brits are way more european than we think we are.