[RAFS]

^ maybe he was talking in the context of apartments being called "suites", not hotels...

I guess Torontonians need to expand their vocabulary. Although, there are quite a number of apartment rental websites that use the term "suite" to describe the apartment type (ie: 1 br, bachelor, etc.). Guess there must be some major confusion happening in TO.

Funny how a topic about 100 Main got diverted to Toronto ;) . I contributed, so I'm just as bad!

[jimj_wpg]

I guess Torontonians need to expand their vocabulary. Although, there are quite a number of apartment rental websites that use the term "suite" to describe the apartment type (ie: 1 br, bachelor, etc.). Guess there must be some major confusion happening in TO.

Funny how a topic about 100 Main got diverted to Toronto ;) . I'm contributed, so I'm just as bad!

Is that an improvement on every Winnipeg thread gets turned into a debate about BRT vs rail? :haha:

[Andy6]

I guess Torontonians need to expand their vocabulary. Although, there are quite a number of apartment rental websites that use the term "suite" to describe the apartment type (ie: 1 br, bachelor, etc.). Guess there must be some major confusion happening in TO.

Funny how a topic about 100 Main got diverted to Toronto ;) . I contributed, so I'm just as bad!

I'm thinking more about people using the term to describe their own (or some other specific) already leased and occupied apartment. No one here would ask you "what is your suite like?" while in Winnipeg my older relatives always talked about people living in "suites" rather than "apartments". My grandmother would always inquire about my "suite" in Toronto while everyone here would always say "apartment". In Toronto, "suites" are sometimes mentioned in advertisements but the word is generally modified by an adjective like "2 bedroom" or whatever -- the word "suite" standing on its own isn't really used as it is in Winnipeg. Same with "block" as in "apartment block" or some old office buildings -- that isn't common here either.

[fengshui]

Getting back to the topic of the thread, some kind of protest/demonstration was happening at the historic gate site over lunch. Couldn't see what exactly, but people had signs and were standing in the Main Street median and on the gate site waving them at cars.

[1ajs]

Getting back to the topic of the thread, some kind of protest/demonstration was happening at the historic gate site over lunch. Couldn't see what exactly, but people had signs and were standing in the Main Street median and on the gate site waving them at cars.

i should find out when their next protest is and go talk to them take the laptop with renderings and see what exactly they are pissed off about....

[Canadian Mind]

so you guys actually have something being built there? sweet.

[1ajs]

so you guys actually have something being built there? sweet.
yep

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c222/cvist/100mainB.jpg

[1ajs]

wp posted this on the ssc winnipeg construction thread

Got an email back from the city concerning 100 Main...so tired of how slow things move here....



Thank you for your inquiry in regards to the 100 Main Street Expression of Interest project. Your email inquiry was forwarded to my office for a response. My apologies on the length of time for our response, as I just received your email today.

On May 24th, 2007, the City of Winnipeg Standing Policy Committee on Downtown Development approved the sale of a portion of the 100 Main Street site to Crystal Developers. This portion of the site is known as Parcel "A", and includes the lands in the southwest corner of the site that are entirely outside of the footprint of the Upper Fort Garry. The Committee also directed the Public Service to enter into negotiations with the Friends of Upper Fort Garry for the sale or transfer of the lands known as Parcel "B", the portion of the 100 Main Street site which contains the walls and archaeological remains of Upper Fort Garry.

At this time, the Public Service has entered into discussions with the Friends of Upper Fort Garry in regards to the sale or transfer of Parcel "B". In addition, the Public Service is continuing to work with Crystal Developers on completing the sale of Parcel "A".

[Winnipegger]

This thread has been dead for a while now, and I've wanted to ask what exactally is going on now?

[biguc]

i should find out when their next protest is and go talk to them take the laptop with renderings and see what exactly they are pissed off about....

They're pissed off about not having lives.

[1ajs]

This thread has been dead for a while now, and I've wanted to ask what exactally is going on now?

the city has split the thing up into lot A and B. A being the parking lot and 100 main building?, B is the gate park they are trying to make both sides happy by the looks of things..

other than the blip i herd on the radio a while back thats all i know...

cvist care to add to this??

[Only The Lonely..]

I think we can file this one under 'greatest disappointment to happen to Winnipeg this century".

[Only The Lonely..]

I have a friend who lives in Fort Garry place who is livid that the 30 story building for the site was quashed.

He made some great points about how the old Fort is filled with bums afterhours, and how there's a number of 25+ story buildings already at the edge of downtown (i.e. Fort Garry Place, 55 Nassau, Evergreen Towers, etc).

Why would a new tower at that location look so out of place?

[newflyer]

They should force the idiots who fought against any development to take up the responsibility to rally around this new "park".

I don't want to see them abandon it.. and have it overrun by bums and druggies. They inisted it not be developed.. and the city was dumb enough to listen... another example of progess missed downtown.

[1ajs]

They should force the idiots who fought against any development to take up the responsibility to rally around this new "park".

I don't want to see them abandon it.. and have it overrun by bums and druggies. They inisted it not be developed.. and the city was dumb enough to listen... another example of progess missed downtown.
newflyer... split the lot up A and B one is the gate park 120 main st

the other is the land for the apartment building........

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1223/1043527037_fa1b73cf61.jpg?v=0


if anything i would love to have the density around the gate get higher... and that stupid bilbord taken out and the park cleaned up a bit... the trees are what make this little hiden gem a hiden gem

[vid]

There is a billboard in the park??

Lord. :rolleyes:

[1ajs]

There is a billboard in the park??

Lord. :rolleyes:
yea of the old house that used to be there

http://www.muddywatertours.ca/Muddy%20Water%20Tours%20Web%20Pages/Fort%20Garry%20Gate%201830s%20001.jpg

[Only The Lonely..]

Listen, what everyone forgets is that the old facade of the fort would still be preserved.

We'd just have a new tallest on the surface lot that is its neighbour. I see nothing wrong with another skyscraper contributing to the downtown property tax base. In fact private investment kick starting a new tallest might be the very thing Winnipeg needs to get its confidence back in the downtown.

[1ajs]

Listen, what everyone forgets is that the old facade of the fort would still be preserved.

We'd just have a new tallest on the surface lot that is its neighbour. I see nothing wrong with another skyscraper contributing to the downtown property tax base. In fact private investment kick starting a new tallest might be the very thing Winnipeg needs to get its confidence back in the downtown.


aww were are we going to get a crane to build a new tallest

[Only The Lonely..]

aww were are we going to get a crane to build a new tallest

Dammit 1ajs, before you and me both die I want to see a new tallest built. Preferably by the private sector.


P.S. I drove down Hallet today, I like your street.

[1ajs]

Dammit 1ajs, before you and me both die I want to see a new tallest built. Preferably by the private sector.


P.S. I drove down Hallet today, I like your street.

yes i would love to have a new tallest also only

cool... just gota clean up the other end of the street a bit... wish i had money to grab that brick building on the corner and put a new roof on it and fix the mess thats in there from the roof fire

and the empty lot well that was an single story store front house that was a rental house for years was a total dump and needed alota work city seized it and demolished it was kinda sad loosing it since it was right up to the sidewalk but it had to go it was ready to colaps

[Only The Lonely..]

yes i would love to have a new tallest also only

cool... just gota clean up the other end of the street a bit... wish i had money to grab that brick building on the corner and put a new roof on it and fix the mess thats in there from the roof fire

and the empty lot well that was an single story store front house that was a rental house for years was a total dump and needed alota work city seized it and demolished it was kinda sad loosing it since it was right up to the sidewalk but it had to go it was ready to colaps


It occured to me today, that most Winnipegger's probably have no reason to venture into Point Douglas. Come to think of it, I was like 20 the first time I ventured into your hood.

[Only The Lonely..]

So what will become of 100 main????

[bc2mb]

yes, i am confused. is the crystal properties tower still happening or not?

[c vist]

Don't worry and don't listen to Gord Sinclair ... 100 Main is still going ahead!

[Pootkao]

Don't worry and don't listen to Gord Sinclair ... 100 Main is still going ahead!

thats very good news, if its true.

[ReginaGuy]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b328/sheldonwolfe/100_4669.jpg
only one i could find

That building looks poorly photoshopped into the picture, yet it's real :(

[Winnipegger]

That building looks poorly photoshopped into the picture, yet it's real :(

I don't get it

[vid]

The building is very simple and ugly. You could draw it in paint on a 1:1 scale, and it wouldn't take much time or effort. It's plain.

Its looks better now that's it's renovated but still, it's a piece of crap. :P

[Winnipegger]

The building is very simple and ugly. You could draw it in paint on a 1:1 scale, and it wouldn't take much time or effort. It's plain.

Its looks better now that's it's renovated but still, it's a piece of crap. :P

Oh, I see. I get it now. Yea, come to think of it, it is very simple, plain and ugly. Wow. What building is that, anyways?

[waffler]

its 33 hargrave and the inside is quite nice i got myself an apartment on the 23rd floor

[The Jabroni]

Well, at least it's better than what it was before. It was definitely a lot uglier before the renovations, but the interior seriously does kick a lot of ass though.

[1ajs]

33 hargrave was a dump befor the renovations was it not now its beutifull... they did a prity dam good job with a comie block

[Winnipegger]

its 33 hargrave and the inside is quite nice i got myself an apartment on the 23rd floor

okay sorry. I probably shouldn't jump to conclusions like that.

[Only The Lonely..]

Possible saviour for history unearthed: Fort's bastion may kill plan to build highrise
Sat Oct 13 2007



JOE BRYKSA / WINNIPEG FREE PRESS
Archeologist Sid Kroker walks outside the excavated dig site of the foundation of the northwest bastion of the original Upper Fort Garry.



FOR about six months now, the City of Winnipeg has been trying to turn our political and commercial birthplace -- the Upper Fort Garry site -- into what it already very nearly is.
A graveyard marking our apathy about history.

The burial ground was prepared last May when a city council committee approved the sale of adjacent land in a deal that would situate a 15-storey highrise apartment like an unmarked tombstone for the Upper Fort Garry site.

The project, which was proposed by Crystal Developers, was designed to be set tight in the corner of a parking lot at Main Street and Assiniboine Avenue.

And snugly up against the fort's northwestern bastion.

Or at least that's what Hudson's Bay archival records dating back to the fort's 1836 construction suggested was the bastion's probable location.

But that, as you'll see, is where the plot takes an interesting twist.

Anyway, in its short-sighted, money-grubbing haste to approve this monument to myopia, the city has resisted various overtures to stop the highrise project.

And the insanity.
The overtures have varied from a simple call for common sense, to a collective personal appeal from the Friends of Upper Fort Garry, a collection of the city's business and political elite who want to create a heritage park and interpretive site on the downtown property.

Oh yes, there was another overture.

It was, and still is, a win-win plan -- courtesy of Yours Humbly -- that calls for relocating Crystal Developers' highrise development in a swap of surplus city-owned property.

Alas, Mayor Sam Katz informed me last week that plan was a no-go in his opinion.

But this week, something happened that might succeed in halting the project where common sense and personal persuasion seem to have failed.

Operating under the pre-construction specifications dictated by the provincial Heritage Act, archeologist Sid Kroker went searching for the round, 26-metre-in-diameter limestone foundation of the northwest bastion.

The exact location is important because the city and the developer had committed to building the highrise apartment on the edge, but not on top, of the original fort's footprint.

So a backhoe dug deep into several predetermined locations of the parking lot near the corner of Main and Assiniboine. And out popped what could be the Friends of Upper Fort Garry's ace in the archeological hole, as it were. Because much to archeologist Sid Kroker's surprise, the northwest bastion wasn't where he, the city or the developer thought it was.

"It was approximately three metres or 10 feet further west than we anticipated," Kroker said.

"Because it's further west than anticipated," Kroker explained, "it may make the development plan unviable."

Kroker's reports are being shared with both the city and Crystal Developers.

So I asked Kroker if the developer had told him that the project might have to be scrapped.

Kroker didn't say yes or no.

"That's just common sense," he answered instead.

Crystal Developers originally had designed the project assuming a certain size of the lot, Kroker said.

"The lot is now 10 feet shorter." That's not even allowing for any government order that may demand another metre of buffer between the proposed highrise and the fort footprint.

"So who knows if this project stays viable," Kroker said.

Actually, I can only think of one person.

So I called the owner of Crystal Developers, Ruben Spletzer.

His receptionist got back to me.

She said Mr. Spletzer wasn't available.

Then she said: "He has no comment at this time."

We can only hope that the next message we get from those who would seek to desecrate our history comes from a white flag waving in Winnipeg's storied wind.

Long live Upper Fort Garry.

gordon.sinclair@freepress.mb.ca

[Lee_Haber8]

^^^I would hardly call the proposal a highrise.

I don't get Winnipeg. There's always so much resistance to things that will make the city, but those people are nowhere to be found when it comes to stopping bad things like Waverley West.

[newflyer]

.... its too bad Winnipeg still has these kinds of people... blocking a descent project like this.. for yet another park (which is surrounded by other parks). :rolleyes:

I was unware that downtown was renamed central park... or Any damn excuse not to build something.

[vid]

Stupid NIMPPHS.

[DowntownBooster]

It seems like there is always someone celebrating in Winnipeg when a possible development is blocked. I really don't see the point in having yet another park when the Forks is already nearby. If we've lived this long without one and there was already an existing building at 100 Main, I don't know what the problem there would be to having a highrise (even if it is only 15 floors). What's the use of having a historic site with signage that is only going to be graffitied on or smashed anyway? It seems that any historic plaques or signage that is put up anywhere in the area (including along Tache), they just get scratched up or spray-painted with graffiti. It makes a lot more sense to build living space to increase the population of the downtown area. Only in Winnipeg are people happy to block development.

[vid]

"Only in Winnipeg are people happy to block development."

Not true. Seven years after a 70m (that is, 70m high, 250m long and 200m wide) grain elevator was demolished on our waterfront, people don't want the empty site developed because it is parkland.

It's actually a pile of rubble, blocked off to human access, and across a small bay from one of the worst industrial "accidents" in Ontario. (The blob)

What are they opposing? Three six story buildings, to be built near other six storey buildings and a parking lot.

Winnipeg isn't the only city that likes to block developments. :(

[Greco Roman]

"Only in Winnipeg are people happy to block development."

Not true. Seven years after a 70m (that is, 70m high, 250m long and 200m wide) grain elevator was demolished on our waterfront, people don't want the empty site developed because it is parkland.

It's actually a pile of rubble, blocked off to human access, and across a small bay from one of the worst industrial "accidents" in Ontario. (The blob)

What are they opposing? Three six story buildings, to be built near other six storey buildings and a parking lot.

Winnipeg isn't the only city that likes to block developments. :(

Add Edmonton to that list, believe it or not. :D

[The Jabroni]

"Only in Winnipeg are people happy to block development."

Not true. Seven years after a 70m (that is, 70m high, 250m long and 200m wide) grain elevator was demolished on our waterfront, people don't want the empty site developed because it is parkland.

It's actually a pile of rubble, blocked off to human access, and across a small bay from one of the worst industrial "accidents" in Ontario. (The blob)

What are they opposing? Three six story buildings, to be built near other six storey buildings and a parking lot.

Winnipeg isn't the only city that likes to block developments. :(

Winnipeg and TB needs each other. ;)

[Only The Lonely..]

The part that made me angry about the article is that when it comes to the Exchange District Gord Sinclair is nowhere to be found.


Here we have an existing neighbourhood under seige and this guy is off in la-la-land defending a fort that hasn't existed for 80 years.

Even worst he takes a cheap shot at Crystal Developments for doing something nobody else has the balls to do; build downtown.

If you ask me a 100+ higher end apartments will do a lot more good for downtown than some desolate park.

[1ajs]

If you ask me a 100+ higher end apartments will do a lot more good for downtown than some desolate park.

yes!

besides the park that is there now is just right with the old growth tress gives it a very unique feel why mess with that only thing that should go is that bilbord of the old house

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1223/1043527037_fa1b73cf61.jpg?v=0

[Boreal]

I'm sure Winnipeggers are brimming with enthusiasm at the idea of going to a park that is seperated from any service by arguably the busiest section of roadway in town.

Yes, it is close to the Forks, and if people want to go to the Forks, they wont stop off at Gordon Sinclair's puppet park on the way. Symbolically, it is completely irrelevant. It's about as historically important to Manitoba as Jamestown is to Americans. You know, pretty much in history books only. It's not as though the entire area is being filled with concrete. It is a relatively small portion. A park and interpretive centre can still exist in a smaller scale alongside the residential tower.

Again, this wouldn't be a major park. It would be a minor park, and with that being the case, it shouldn't be treated with the same social (re: Gordon Sinclair) protective clauses, as that of Assiniboine, Kildonan or St. Vital.

If the city's elite really wants to do something nice for greenspace, the titled "Garbage Hill" could be a green haven for pedestrians and the light industrial in the area alike. It is as far as I know, the highest point of elevation in the ity proper and gives you views you cannot get anywhere else in the capital region. A beautifying effort would be well served there. As opposed to a little nook that is a 5 minute walk from where you really want to be.

[Spocket]

Hmmmm...so they found a "historical artifact" that might block this development. No surprise of course. The fact that it was buried and nobody had any idea it was there in the first place means diddly of course. Meh, whatever. I wonder if the NIMBY's feel like the Crusaders did when they "found" the "True Cross". Watch "Kingdom of Heaven" to see how the "True Cross" helped them out against Saladin. Hopefully the NIMBY's repeat the performance.

[Only The Lonely..]

Upper Fort Garry finds a new friend
Councillor opposes development next to site

Fri Nov 16 2007

By Bartley Kives | Winnipeg Free Press

THE Friends of Upper Fort Garry have finally caught a break in their crusade to push an apartment building off the edge of the historic site, as a member of Mayor Sam Katz's cabinet has joined their cause.

Six months after the city approved the sale of land southwest of the old fort's footprint to Crystal Developers, downtown development committee chairman Russ Wyatt is now opposed to a residential building next to the site.

In May, the $1.8-million deal sparked protests from The Friends, a non-profit group that wants to build an historic park where the city's birthplace once stood.

The group's cause appeared doomed until October, when an archeological dig found the former fort's northwestern bastion three metres to the west of where it was expected, surprising historians and effectively reducing the size of the developer's parcel of land.

While the city's Land Use Division and Crystal Developers try to hash out a reduction in the sale price, Wyatt changed his mind and is now calling on the company's owner, Ruben Spletzer, to back out of the project.

"In light of the new archeological evidence, the developer's site is smaller and the fort's footprint is even bigger. I would encourage Mr. Spletzer to reconsider," Wyatt said Thursday.

"We don't have a great appreciation of history in this. This is the trading post that opened up Western Canada. You wouldn't put an apartment building on the Plains of Abraham."

Spletzer could not be reached for comment. But Harold Buchwald, a spokesman for Friends of Upper Fort Garry, was elated by Wyatt's change of heart.

"I'm very excited he's taking this leadership and he's seeing the virtue of (an historic park) over a commercial development," said Buchwald, whose group has pledged to raise $2.5 million toward a $12 million park supported by all three levels of government.

"We have credible, reliable people ready to go out and develop this -- if we have something to develop."

The Friends' membership includes former Manitoba Premiers Duff Roblin and Gary Filmon, former Gov.-Gen. Ed Schreyer and Lt.-Gov. Pearl McGonigal, ex-mayor Bill Norrie and businessman George Richardson, Leonard Asper, John Buhler, Bob Chipman and Bob Silver.

But so far, these heavyweights have not raised a single penny toward a historic park, Buchwald conceded.

Winnipeg, meanwhile, is in a poor position to fund a new park, as the city is having trouble maintaining approximately 900 existing parks and open spaces, including its decaying flagship, Assiniboine Park.

Manitoba already has 113 provincial heritage sites. And the federal government only manages seven out of Manitoba's 55 National Historic Sites.

That said, Parks Canada is interested in working with whoever winds up managing Upper Fort Garry to enhance the profile of the city's birthplace and possibly connect a future park to the nearby Forks National Historic Site.

"We've sat in on meetings about Upper Fort Garry Gate. Obviously, it's linked to The Forks and it's of national historic significance," said Dawn Bronson, the superintendent of Parks Canada's Manitoba Field Unit.

But Parks Canada is unlikely to contribute significant funding or hands-on management.

"Over the past 25 years, we have assumed management of very few national historic sites," Bronson said.


bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

[Only The Lonely..]

Well boys, anyone want to join me as I wash away my sorrow with a bottle of cerveza in Winnipeg's newest neglected park?

[RAFS]

Do you think anybody at the Free Press will eventually spell Rubin Spletzer's name correctly?

[Boreal]

Unfortunately, my hope now is geared towards finding Crystal Properties a new location, in a property swap of sorts, to allow construction to go ahead, at least somewhere else in the downtown core. I'm disappointed, to say the least.

[drew]

^ they could build that building a little further down on Assiniboine where that 100 year old complex of apartments is slated to get demolished...? What about the Dubrovnik's site?

[trueviking]

you should not believe everything you read in the free press. Not only does Wyatt have his info wrong, the decision for the sale does not go back to council.....i'm not sure what he could possibly do now to kill the sale of property.

the tower is not dead.

[biguc]

Well boys, anyone want to join me as I wash away my sorrow with a bottle of cerveza in Winnipeg's newest neglected park?

Are you serious?

[Boreal]

you should not believe everything you read in the free press. Not only does Wyatt have his info wrong, the decision for the sale does not go back to council.....i'm not sure what he could possibly do now to kill the sale of property.

the tower is not dead.

I certainly hope not. I love the site, and think it would be a fantastic addition. It's not so much that I'm a crystal properties lover that I want them there, but more that I am such a huge proponent of downtown residency, that there is little that I wouldn't do to get people living downtown. That is the ONLY way, downtown will ever revitalize that. Certainly this project on its own won't accomplish the task, but I believe it is one of many very important steps.

[WpG_GuY]

"We don't have a great appreciation of history in this. This is the trading post that opened up Western Canada. You wouldn't put an apartment building on the Plains of Abraham."

i really do not understand the big deal here. has he not noticed the parking lot that covers the majority of the site now....where was the appreciation of history when they paved over this buried archeological evidence in the first place?

[vid]

Fuck, we turned Fort William into an oil tank field, and now it's contaminated soil and blocked off from human interaction!

I'd rather a high rise, myself.

[Andy6]

"We don't have a great appreciation of history in this. This is the trading post that opened up Western Canada. You wouldn't put an apartment building on the Plains of Abraham."

i really do not understand the big deal here. has he not noticed the parking lot that covers the majority of the site now....where was the appreciation of history when they paved over this buried archeological evidence in the first place?

There wasn't as much appreciation then. How does it follow that we shouldn't be more careful now? Having said that, I would have thought there was room for both an expanded historical site and some sort of apartment building. But if there's demand for downtown housing, then why wouldn't they build in another location? That one doesn't seem particularly special.

[1ajs]

yea but they did preserve the gate for future genirtions to injoy and fixed the hudge crack that had indangerd it in the early 1900's

[Andy6]

yea but they did preserve the gate for future genirtions to injoy and fixed the hudge crack that had indangerd it in the early 1900's

Yes, saving the gate was one of the earliest examples of the development of historical consciousness in the city.

[1ajs]

and so we have this tiny park that is pefect size for a urban gem... it just needs some tlc and to get rid of that stupid bilbord....

[newflyer]

yea but they did preserve the gate for future genirtions to injoy and fixed the hudge crack that had indangerd it in the early 1900's

Well the whole of Lower Fort Garry still stands... so they didn't do that great of a job. :D

[1ajs]

Well the whole of Lower Fort Garry still stands... so they didn't do that great of a job. :D

may i remind you newflyer a freaking city grew up out of the runins of that fort....

[newflyer]

may i remind you newflyer a freaking city grew up out of the runins of that fort....

Of course ... but I am not going to have a "Fergy Oliver" over a single (very important) gate. The same gate which would not lose any significance with 100 Main development. Where were these guys when the gas station setup shop right in front of this gate?


FYI .. the settlement grew around the fort.... but didn't take off as a city until the arrival of the rail line. The flooding of the river lead the Hudson Bay to relocate its trading business to higher ground (Lower Fort Gary).

[Pootkao]

Hey boys
The so-called 'Friends' haven't raised a penny yet. For what that's worth.

[Pootkao]

My letter to the editor on the topic. I had emailed Bartley about his article and he agrees that its all bunk.
=======================================

So let me get this straight.

A private developer wants to build apartments downtown for the first time in over 20 years, and Winnipeg's wealthiest and most powerful businessmen are trying to fight it?

What happened to trying to make downtown an attractive place to live? Where was their friendship when PetroCan effectively ruined the corner's appeal, or the parking lot sealed the deal? What happened to our ability to compromise and actually have BOTH an apartment tower and a Fort Garry interpretive centre.

While I'm at it, what has pre-empted Gordon Sinclair's obsession over this project? And where was he when multiple groups were trying to keep actual EXISTING buildings from the wrecking ball. Perhaps its the same 'cause celebre' that leads Councilor Russ Wyatt to seek the soap box and ignore his elected duty as downtown ambassador.

This has become a very fickle drama. Hopefully, our civic politicians will see the benefit of these apartments to our downtown and will realize that to back out of this deal now makes this city look like the business-unfriendly place its been accused of being for the last 30 years.

Both the apartments and the Fort park can happen. Get to it, Winnipeg!

[biggiebear]

I'll bounce this off you guys. As a former Winnipeger myself I always felt the upper Fort Gary gate was one of the most neglected important site that we have. Buried between 100 Main and the gas station. What would be your thoughts on moving the gate to the Forks area with a plaque explaining where the original placement was not only would this be seen by more tourists heading to our number 1 attraction (The Forks) but would also be seen by more Winnipegers as well. On the existing site a plaque or outline on the ground could show where the original gate stood, this could end up on the floor of the proposed market building an area that would be a focal point.

A similiar thing happened in London, Shakespears Globe theatre was reconstructed on the banks of the Thames quite a few metres away from the original site. This allowed for better interaction with tourists. The original site is marked out on the ground in the courtyard of a new (get this) apartment building. Just a thought that could solve two situations and renew the importance of the gate and give us a beautiful new complex as well.

[Andy6]

My letter to the editor on the topic. I had emailed Bartley about his article and he agrees that its all bunk.
=======================================

So let me get this straight.

A private developer wants to build apartments downtown for the first time in over 20 years, and Winnipeg's wealthiest and most powerful businessmen are trying to fight it?

What happened to trying to make downtown an attractive place to live? Where was their friendship when PetroCan effectively ruined the corner's appeal, or the parking lot sealed the deal? What happened to our ability to compromise and actually have BOTH an apartment tower and a Fort Garry interpretive centre.

While I'm at it, what has pre-empted Gordon Sinclair's obsession over this project? And where was he when multiple groups were trying to keep actual EXISTING buildings from the wrecking ball. Perhaps its the same 'cause celebre' that leads Councilor Russ Wyatt to seek the soap box and ignore his elected duty as downtown ambassador.

This has become a very fickle drama. Hopefully, our civic politicians will see the benefit of these apartments to our downtown and will realize that to back out of this deal now makes this city look like the business-unfriendly place its been accused of being for the last 30 years.

Both the apartments and the Fort park can happen. Get to it, Winnipeg!

That corner was a gas station long before there was such a thing as PetroCan. I don't know that the Friends can be blamed for that. It would seem as though something could be worked out in this case. Preserving the entire fort area doesn't really seem necessary. The present park could be greatly expanded and improved with room for an apartment building, as far as I can see. On the other hand, as I said before, Fort Garry Place is much larger than this apartment would be, and it's hard to see what it has "done for downtown". The area around there still seems disappointingly shabby even though there are thousands of apartment dwellers around.

[trueviking]

That corner was a gas station long before there was such a thing as PetroCan. I don't know that the Friends can be blamed for that. It would seem as though something could be worked out in this case. Preserving the entire fort area doesn't really seem necessary. The present park could be greatly expanded and improved with room for an apartment building, as far as I can see. .

i agree completely...why cant the park be 3/4 of the block instead of all of it....

it doesnt seem like it needs to be either/or....why not a tower and a nice park.

[rgalston]

Hey boys
The so-called 'Friends' haven't raised a penny yet. For what that's worth.

Can these guys die off yet?

[trueviking]

nobody has posted these yet:

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/plans_for_upper_fort_garry/

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/images/sketchs/upperfortgarry_park.jpg

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/images/sketchs/rendering-LR.jpg

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/resource/Image/plan_context.jpg

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/resource/Image/Upper-Ft-Garry-drawing.jpg

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/images/sketchs/Sketchup-View-4.gif

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/images/sketchs/Sketchup-View-5.gif

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/images/sketchs/Sketchup-View-7.gif

http://www.upperfortgarry.com/images/sketchs/Sketchup-View-8.gif


some serious members on this friends list

Friends of Upper Fort Garry

Honorary Patrons
Rt. Hon. Edward Schreyer,
P.C., C.C., O.M.
Hon. Gary Filmon, P.C., O.M.
Richard A.N. Bonnycastle


Steering Committee

Founding Chair
Hon. Peter M. Liba, C.M., O.M.

Chair
Dr. Jerry L. Gray

Harold Buchwald, C.M., Q.C.
R.W. (Bob) Cunningham
Hon. Gary Filmon, P.C., O.M.
Garry Hilderman, FLSLA
Hon. Otto Lang, P.C., O.C., Q.C.
Penny McMillan
Dr. Bill Norrie, C.M., O.M., Q.C.
Cindy Tugwell


Advisory Council
Leonard Asper
Hon. Lloyd Axworthy, P.C., O.C., O.M.
John Buhler
James W. Burns, O.C., O.M.
Robert M. Chipman
Art DeFehr, O.C.
Gene Dunn
N. Ashleigh Everett
Richard Frost
Gregg Hanson
Dr. Arthur V. Mauro, O.C., O.M., Q.C.
Raymond L. McFeetors
Hon. Pearl McGonigal, C.M., O.M.
Randall Moffat, C.M.
L.O. (Lawrie) Pollard
Barry Rempel
George T. Richardson, C.M., O.M.
Hartley T. Richardson, C.M., LL.D.
Tannis Richardson, C.M.
H. Sanford Riley, C.M.
Bruce Robinson
Hon. Duff Roblin, P.C., C.C., O.M.
Janet Schubert
Bob Silver
Dr. Emoke J.E. Szathmary, C.M.

[vid]

It may only be two thirds of what it was, but at least it won't flood every year. :)

[JayM]

Wow, thats some intense visuals there. looks like they used a tool to create it with that i use. :)

[Brokenhead]

some serious members on this friends list

Friends of Upper Fort Garry

Honorary Patrons
Rt. Hon. Edward Schreyer,
P.C., C.C., O.M.
Hon. Gary Filmon, P.C., O.M.
Richard A.N. Bonnycastle




That's a shame.

[Boreal]

...Please tell me that's not a faux gate post in a parking lot.

I'm all for preserving history, but I still remain skeptical about a recreation of what doesn't exist. I can't say I'm turned on in any remote fashion by these renders. But alas, they are just that; rendered images.

However, on second thought, if it hugs the street, it might be pretty capturing. I'm coming around to the plan. But its going to take some time.

Hopefully an amiable second location is found for Crystal Properties. And I don't mean the Sterling Lyon Parkway.

...as an aside, it isn't even the apartment tower that I'm most upset about not seeing come to fruition at the site. It is the farmer's market that I was really hoping for. The Forks does have a large food market, no question, but The Forks is set back from the major population clusters of downtown (although, the East Exchange is starting to bloom, so I suppose this arguement holds less weight with each passing date). Nonetheless, it would have been nice to offer a fresh food location near to the densely populated Assiniboine area.

[drew]

I kinda like those renderings. If they can actually accomplish this and get rid of that curling rink along with it, go for it.

This is a unique site, and deserves a unique development.

Punt the gas station at the corner, and put a nice slender condo tower there.

[ILYR]

I kinda like those renderings. If they can actually accomplish this and get rid of that curling rink along with it, go for it.

This is a unique site, and deserves a unique development.

Punt the gas station at the corner, and put a nice slender condo tower there.

I agree. As much as it would be nice to see a tower go up, having a tower just for the sake of building a tower is not the right thing to do. Now if they could integrate the two that would be better. Maybe even use the location as a theme in the design of a possible tower adjacent to the park. But hey that would be logical, and that doesn't sit well with "proper" city planning.

[Andy6]

It could be a pretty dramatic way to enter downtown Winnipeg, basically passing through a 200 year old fort. You'd have to think that it would also bring visitors out of the Forks-St. Boniface precinct and help encourage revitalization of Union Station and Broadway as well as supporting the Fort Garry Hotel. If you imagine that plus the Forks plus St. Boniface, the ballpark, the CMHR and the Exchange, you've got the makings of quite an impressive tourist destination.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Province pledges $1.5M for heritage park

The provincial government will spend $1.5 million on a heritage park planned for the former site of Upper Fort Garry in downtown Winnipeg, Premier Gary Doer said today.

The volunteer group Friends of Upper Fort Garry wants to build a $12.5- million heritage park and interpretive centre on surplus city land bounded by Main Street, Assinboine Avenue and Fort Street. But the city has given the group a March 31 deadline to raise $10 million toward that goal.

If the Friends group fails, the southwest portion of the city land will revert to a private developer that seeks to erect an apartment building at the corner of Fort St. and Assiniboine Ave.

The provincial contribution tops up private fundraising commitments of $1 million. The federal government is still studying the plan to see if it will come forward with funding of its own.

[Greco Roman]

I don't mind the park being established, but at the same time this thread depresses me as to how very few construction projects are proceeding in Winnipeg. :(

[Biff]

I don't mind the park being established, but at the same time this thread depresses me as to how very few construction projects are proceeding in Winnipeg. :(

You mean you are depressed at how few skyscraper projects are proceeding in Winnipeg. Because the construction industry in Winnipeg currently can't keep up with projects. The amount of condo buildings and retail/industrial construction in the city is insane. As an example a nice midscale project - the Sobey's Distribution centre - $40+ million is delayed because of the increased cost of construction.

I understand that you mean projects with tower cranes downtown making people go "WOW" but don't get down on Winnipeg. A lot of places would love to be getting a brand new airport designed by someone like Pelli.:tup:

[1ajs]

theres the old fort gary maner site at broadway and main still... we could always get a nice tower there....

[Andy6]

Here's an interesting plan of the site from 1952, provided by the HBC to the City for flood control planning:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2214/2244599791_6a844d1d51_b.jpg

[j.online]

This whole either/or attitude is retarded. There's clearly plenty of room for both parties to be happy. Does anyone know of a venue for citizens to voice their opinion to PPD/council on this development? WUI folks, you should be all over this one!

[The Jabroni]

WUI should get involved. Why not have both?

Although, I'm beginning to agree with IYLR. We can't just build an apartment building for the sake of building an apartment building.

[j.online]

WUI should get involved. Why not have both?

Although, I'm beginning to agree with IYLR. We can't just build an apartment building for the sake of building an apartment building.

I'd agree with ya if the fort's footprint covered the whole site and it truly was a case of either/or. but it's not. there is more than enough room to have both the mid-rise apartment and the heritage park on the the same lot.

if russ wyatt seems so open to changing the deal for the Friends as the article suggests, maybe one of the architect types on the board could do a quick mash-up of both proposals that would work harmonious on the site and send it his way.

[theruler462]

New plan for Upper Fort Garry
But province's cash pledge throws wrench in city's development deal
Wed Feb 6 2008

By Bartley Kives and Bruce Owen

FACED with a looming deadline and nowhere near enough cash, the group trying to preserve Upper Fort Garry has come up with a new plan to save the city's birthplace.

And it amounts to a game of hardball between the Manitoba legislature and city hall.

Back in the fall, city council gave the Friends of Upper Fort Garry until the end of March to raise $10 million toward the creation of a $12.5-million heritage park and interpretive centre in downtown Winnipeg.

Council's downtown development committee was prepared to hand over what's left of the fort -- two parcels of surplus city land along Main Street and Assiniboine Avenue, plus a small park containing Upper Fort Garry Gate -- as long as the Friends met the fundraising deadline and also bought the nearby Grain Exchange Curling Club, which sits above the fort's former footprint.

But on Tuesday, Manitoba Premier Gary Doer said the province will spend $1.5 million to help the Friends immediately buy what's left of the fort and prevent the group from having to look for millions from private donors over the next two months.


"Let's get the land first, before the March 31 deadline," Doer said. "We agree the land and the fort has to be preserved."

Doer said the provincial contribution is merely intended to secure the land and will not be put toward the creation of the park and interpretive centre.

"I give the Friends credit. They're running a great grassroots campaign, but let's make sure it succeeds in its first goal," Doer said.

Together, the three parcels of city land in question have an assessed value of $2.9 million. But the market value is higher, as an apartment developer was prepared to pay $1.2 million for a corner of the land assessed at only $507,400.

Regardless of the price, the Friends of Upper Fort Garry hope they can buy all the city land with the help of private donations as well as some form of contribution from the federal government.

"The good news is the province is on board and wants to see this happen," said Jerry Gray, who chairs the Friends' steering committee.

"The big picture is we have to go back and talk to the city about what might be worked out. And we're continuing to raise money on the private side."

The offer to outright buy the land instead of meeting the original terms of the deal was met with icy silence from Mayor Sam Katz's office on Tuesday.

A comment would be "inappropriate and preliminary" because the Friends have yet to communicate their new plans with the city, said Katz spokesman Brad Salyn.

Downtown development chairman Russ Wyatt, however, said he would be prepared to go back and rework the city's deal with the Friends.

"The resolution was not written on Mount Sinai. We can change it, but there has to be the political will to do it," Wyatt said. "I think it would be better if we sold, because we get the value for it."

Wyatt said the city would demand assurances the Friends develop the site within a short period of time, such as five years. He also said the Friends might want to consider scaling back the scope and cost of the project.

But Doer said he supports the Friends' plan to raise private funds toward the completion of a historic park that would cover the former fort's footprint and also connect to The Forks, via Bonnycastle Park.

Jim August, CEO of The Forks-North Portage Partnership, said his agency may be prepared to administer the park, provided the Friends raise the cash to build it. Parks Canada has also made a similar offer.

"In some ways, it's almost an extension of The Forks, the way it's being planned," August said.

The federal government, meanwhile, is still considering some form of funding for the Friends, but no decision has been made, said Mike Storeshaw, a spokesman for senior Manitoba MP Vic Toews.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

[theruler462]

Does Doer's $1.5-M pledge amount to KO of dream?
Wed Feb 6 2008

LAST week, as the clock ticked on the Upper Fort Garry project, I wondered out loud what was taking Premier Gary Doer so long to get behind saving the birthplace of the governance and commerce in Manitoba.

The Friends of Upper Fort Garry was asking for only $4.5 million.

Then, Tuesday morning, the premier finally met with the leaders of Friends, a volunteer group that includes -- on paper, at least -- the largest collection of the city's who's who since the ill-fated Save The Jets campaign.

By the time it was over, it was all but over.

What Doer gave the Friends was a $1.5-million slap in the face.

Friends spokesman, Jerry Gray, said he was happy with the money, even though it's $3 million less than the group needed.

What else could the poor beggar say?

Gray also insisted the premier was "100 per cent" behind the plan to build an interpretive centre and create a heritage park on the old fur fort site.

The facts -- minus the spin -- suggest otherwise.

Ultimately, the $1.5-million slap in the face could be the equivalent of a knockout punch for the Friends and its dream.

Our collective dream, really.

Gray knows it, too.

The Friends are facing a city-imposed March 31 deadline to raise $10 million of the $12.5 million to build the project.

The group once had dreams of Ottawa supplying $4.6 million.

Doer's decision has all but cancelled that level of contribution from Stephen Harper's government.

Upper Fort Garry is also a site of national importance, of course. It was the headquarters of the Hudson Bay Company when its fur-trading empire encompassed most of North America.

But why would Ottawa contribute more than the province -- or anything at all -- when our own premier doesn't even put a premium or a priority on the historically priceless property?

So short of passing the hat among a wealthy membership -- something Doer might be trying to accomplish -- the Friends are left with only one hope: Mayor Sam Katz.

Unfortunately, so far, Katz hasn't been much of a friend of the Friends.

On Monday, the mayor wasn't saying anything publicly.

But his office was said to be flabbergasted and, frankly, I can't blame them.

Suddenly, the premier who's been so conspicuously absent from the public discussion seems to be trying to dictate a new set of terms.

According to Gray, it was Doer's idea to use the promised $1.5 million for the purchase of the city property where the fort once stood.

That way, the strategy goes, the Friends could take all the time they want to raise all the money they need.

That's a huge gamble though.

First, Katz would have to agree to it when he and a city committee have already voted to sell a piece of the coveted city land for a high-rise apartment project.

Not something the mayor is likely to be keen on when a developer is involved.

But if he did agree, under Doer's plan, the Friends would have to negotiate a price.

The land involved might be assessed at $2.9 million, but that's not necessarily its street value to the city.

The parcel originally slated for the high-rise sold for $1.8 million, and it was just a corner piece.

But what's really puzzling about Doer's last-minute plan of buying the property is what Katz had already agreed to do.

The city had promised to give the land to the Friends as the city's contribution to the Upper Fort Garry project.

So why do they need to buy it?

Because of how little money the premier offered the Friends, how close the deadline is.

That leads us to a thorny question: Why should the mayor agree to sell it?

Only, I would suggest, because saving Upper Fort Garry has gone beyond merely saving and restoring a provincial and national treasure for our children.

It's become a symbol.

The Friends' attempt to save the fort is reminiscent of the attempt to save the Jets and the way our most prominent citizens just can't manage to pull in the same direction at the same time.

Saving the fort should be simple by fiscal comparison.

Instead, it's in danger of becoming another sorry symbol of our can't-do mentality.

gordon.sinclair@freepress.mb.ca

[Boreal]

Gordon Sinclair and Lilian Thomas are one and the same. Sinclair constantly pens his diatribes and is under the assumption that Gordon Sinclair's opinion is EVERBODY'S opinion. For example, when he laments, "The Friends' attempt to save the fort is reminiscent of the attempt to save the Jets and the way our most prominent citizens just can't manage to pull in the same direction at the same time." Perhpas we don't all wish to pull in the same direction - the Sinclair direction. He goes on to say that, "Instead, it's in danger of becoming another sorry symbol of our can't-do mentality." No Gordon, you are the symbol of our can't-do mentality. The park and a much needed apartment complex can co-exist without infringing on each other.

[hexrae]

^ Agreed. I don't see why both can't co-exist. The overlap in location is unfortunate. Also, how is this building an apartment block for the sake of building one? Market demand is there with apartment vacancy rates low. I'm not naive enough to think this developer wants to build to appease us.

Normally, I'm not one to write letters/email to news articles, but this time I couldn't help it.

Let's get right to the point. What I don't understand is your doom and gloom attitude
towards the attempt to save the fort. It's a win-win situation either way. If the
Friends group succeeds, then Winnipeg gets its world-class heritage park. If they don't,
then while we don't get the park, the winning proposal makes more than adequate
accommodations for the fort site.

See siteplan here:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c222/cvist/100MainC.jpg

Better yet, if the Friends group doesn't succeed, then perhaps they can work with the
developer. Why not promote a joint-venture, rather than "slap in the face $1.5 million"
this and "sorry symbol of our can't-do mentally" that?

I've grown up the ever-pessimist, but have developed into a strong can-do person. This
is why I can't read your articles with regularity, I'm afraid I'll relapse. If you
really care about helping this city, then quit being a critic. Otherwise, all you're
doing is fishing.

I threw in a jab at the end as an exclamation mark. I meant it more to illicit a reactionary response than to harm. I'd rather get something back than nothing, because honestly I wouldn't mind some form of intellectual conversation with him.

[ILYR]

Regardless of the outcome on this project, it is going to be messy. The city will probably get sued by whoever comes out on the bottom (specifically the developer who already had an "aggreement" with the city).

[Greco Roman]

Regardless of the outcome on this project, it is going to be messy. The city will probably get sued by whoever comes out on the bottom (specifically the developer who already had an "aggreement" with the city).


As they should.

[1ajs]

the developer deserves compisation for this fuck up...

[wags_in_the_peg]

Friends set to scale back Upper Fort plan
May have to drop idea of building interpretive centre on historic site

By Bartley Kives

‘We need to look at other options,’ Friends of Upper Fort Garry spokesman Jerry Gray says.
THE Friends of Upper Fort Garry are preparing to scale back their plans for a heritage park on the site of the city's birthplace after the province made it clear the group's $12.5 million design is too ambitious.

Friends spokesman Jerry Gray said the volunteer group is looking at ways to come up with a less elaborate concept for converting surplus city land into a heritage park and may jettison the idea of building an interpretive centre.

"We need to look at other options. This thing is not cast in stone," Gray said Wednesday, one day after Manitoba Premier Gary Doer pledged to spend $1.5 million to help the group secure land and preserve the site, but declined to back the Friends' conception of a heritage park and interpretive centre.

"They conveyed the fact we need to take another look at the development. And that's what we're going to do."

The Friends had asked the province for $4.5 million to help create a park and interpretive centre on two parcels of surplus city land north of Assiniboine Avenue, between Main and Fort Streets.

If the Friends don't raise a total of $10 million by March 31, the city plans to sell the southwestern parcel to Crystal Developers, which wants to build an apartment building at the corner of Fort and Assiniboine.

The Friends have always maintained they need that parcel of land, which sits outside of the fort's former footprint, to build an interpretive centre and connect to Bonnycastle Park.

But the province's lack of enthusiasm for the Friends' ambitious plan -- coupled with the fact they remain at least $8 million shy of their fundraising target -- has led the group to reconsider its options.

Gray said the Friends will still try to raise $10 million to ensure they control both parcels of the surplus city land, thus preventing Crystal from erecting an apartment building.

But the group will also try to convince the city to sell them to the land, which is assessed at $2.9 million but may be worth more than $5 million on the open market.

Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz said he does not understand why the Friends would seek to purchase land the city is offering to give away.

"I don't think it's a very astute decision to pay for land somebody is offering to give you for free," the mayor said. "It makes no sense to me and I don't get it."

But the Friends see an outright purchase as a means of getting out of the other conditions laid out by the city, which include the purchase the Grain Exchange Curling Club, which sits on Fort Street land that sits on top of part of the Upper Fort Garry's old footprint.

"There's a risk right now we could lose everything," said Gray. "If we buy the property, we can minimize that risk. I know that means changing the conditions, but we have to go back to the city."

So far, the Friends have not spoken to the city and Katz is not entertaining any changes to its agreement with the group.

"Right now, we have a deal in place, and I don't know anything about any other deal," he said. "The Friends don't have a deal with the province. They have a deal with the city."

Katz said the March 31 fundraising deadline is not arbitrary, as Crystal Developers needs to know early in the year if its apartment building will go ahead to allow contractors to get their shovels in the ground at the beginning of the construction season.

If the Friends still want to develop a park on the eastern parcel of surplus city land, which includes most of the former fort's former footprint, the group would remain welcome to do so, the mayor said.

"That option was always on the table. But they rejected it," the mayor said.

Preserving the site of the city's birthplace is the province's sole motivation for offering $1.5 million to the Friends, a spokesman for Doer reiterated.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

[Biff]

This is just becoming a big joke now. What we are going to end up with is the Province paying $1.5 mil for land the city is going to give to them for free, the curling rink is still going to be there, the "Park" will end up being a nice grass field and a good legitimate development project – the apartment - will be driven off, most likely to be cancelled and its site will remain vacant.

It sounds that if the Friends would just work with the apartment developer we could have it all. Maybe if all these rich Friends would pony up some of their own money for a cause that they are so passionate about instead of acting like panhandlers something might get done.

I'm so pissed off that this has come to this. And i actually was starting to think that this "World Class" park and interpretive center might work.

[Greco Roman]

This is yet another reason to add to the list why no one will take Winnipeg seriously :rolleyes:

[vid]

That's nothing.

The main opposition to Thunder Bay's water front development is Friends of Marina Park. On Tuesday night, they had a gathering. To what conclusion did they come?

"We're going to ask the city to cancel the project."

THAT'S RIGHT!!

We have gone from "Why the fuck aren't they doing anything?" to "They're doing everything wrong!" to "FUCK IT! Cancel the project!" in less than a year!!!

100 Main Street is nothing compared to Marina Park. :rolleyes:

[The Jabroni]

My faith in humanity just went down a few notches, after hearing that. :hell:

[Boreal]

This is very frustrating. The Letterhead of the "Friends" features a lot of recognizeable and well-to-do names, however it appears they are only passionate to do things about the site with everybody else's money. Perhaps my right wing roots are casting through the surface, but to me, that is the true definition of a left wing liberal. Why have an enterprise that contributes to the city financially, when we can have an enterprise that withdraws revenue from the city.

[Spocket]

Right now it looks like the main goal for the 'Fiends' is to make sure that nothing is done with that lot. That way they can take all the time they need to get their act together. That's logical as it stands but hardly does do anything beneficial for anybody. Of course, the irony is that alot of these folks had decades to get this done and they had much higher chances of succeeding before the city decided to redevelop the land I might add.

[viperred88]

what do you guys expect the city got ignorant about the location and expected everything to be done with the year kinda of half ass planning in my books. Just like the waterpark where they want to rush to build by next year with no proper planning and forethought. Sometimes it takes more than a year to properly get things done right with projects of this magnitude.