[flatlander]

To argue the technical merits of the project I believe is missing the point. For most people it is irrelevant as to whether or not the project is on top or adjacent to the old fort. People seem to want something more grand there than what is currently proposed. The Friends and other groups have caught the imagination of the city, something city hall and Spletzer haven't done with their project.

Just my opinion but that's the way i see the wind blowing.

[1ajs]

you brig up a good point flatlander... remember the excitement the friends proposal caused here when we got wiff of it?

[Boreal]

I agree with Flatlander, but I would take it one step further and say they captured minds using Winnipeg's newest and most lucrative sound-byte, "world class". I guess we can't win people over anymore with the promise of a job well done. Everything needs Las Vegas' favourite headline.

[rgalston]

To argue the technical merits of the project I believe is missing the point. For most people it is irrelevant as to whether or not the project is on top or adjacent to the old fort. People seem to want something more grand there than what is currently proposed. The Friends and other groups have caught the imagination of the city, something city hall and Spletzer haven't done with their project.

Just my opinion but that's the way i see the wind blowing.

Of course those little, boring "technical merits" are "irrelevant" to the public is because they are ignored by the media. If you've listened to CJOB, watched CBC, or read the Free Press in the last few months, you'd think that the apartment will go on the Fort's site. There are intelligent adults in Winnipeg who actually think that the north gate is threatened by demolition right now.

People want something more grand and imaginative than new privately-led, privately-funded (ie- no WWHI funding) residential construction in downtown Winnipeg? What could be more grand and imaginative than that?

[trueviking]

why should the developer have to spend his time and money to go out and lobby for his cause?....he won a city issued RFP...contracts were signed with the very people deciding to scrap it....it should be up to the city to justify to the public why they decided that the propoosal was acceptable to them when they awarded it...

[fengshui]

And so it goes to Council for a final vote. At least the FP report was CLEAR about the piece of land in question. Why are the Friends so intractable about the location of the interpretive centre?

City council will get a chance to debate the future of Upper Fort Garry next week as Mayor Sam Katz's cabinet this morning chose not to kill off a motion by St. Boniface Coun. Dan Vandal.
Coun. Vandal wants the city to rescind a Dec. 13 decision to allow volunteer group Friends of Upper Fort Garry to build a heritage park on surplus city land alongside Main Street, provided the group raises $10 million by April 1.
The Friends are having trouble meeting that deadline, chairman Jerry Gray told the mayor's cabinet this morning.
If they do fail, the city will follow through on an earlier agreement to sell a corner of the surplus land -- outside of the former fort's footprint -- to an apartment building developer.
If that happens, the Friends will walk away from the project, Gray said, even though they would still be given the opportunity to develop a heritage park where the fort used to stand.
The Friends will not consider the possibility of placing an interpretive centre anywhere other than on the parcel of land where the apartment building might go, Gray said.
In the end, Katz's cabinet voted to receive Coun. Vandal's motion as information. They did not vote against it, which means it will appear on the council agenda on March 19.

[Biff]

And so it goes to Council for a final vote. At least the FP report was CLEAR about the piece of land in question. Why are the Friends so intractable about the location of the interpretive centre?

"If that happens, the Friends will walk away from the project, Gray said, even though they would still be given the opportunity to develop a heritage park where the fort used to stand.The Friends will not consider the possibility of placing an interpretive centre anywhere other than on the parcel of land where the apartment building might go, Gray said."


Fuckin babies, not like i had any sympathy for them in the first place but it would have been nice to see them work together and have both projects proceed - now i just hope the Friend's fail

[Only The Lonely..]

With friends like these Winnipeg doesn't need enemies.

[Greco Roman]

"If that happens, the Friends will walk away from the project, Gray said, even though they would still be given the opportunity to develop a heritage park where the fort used to stand.The Friends will not consider the possibility of placing an interpretive centre anywhere other than on the parcel of land where the apartment building might go, Gray said."


Fuckin babies, not like i had any sympathy for them in the first place but it would have been nice to see them work together and have both projects proceed - now i just hope the Friend's fail

My sentiments exactly!

[Greco Roman]

With friends like these Winnipeg doesn't need enemies.

Man, isn't that the truth?

[1ajs]

holy crap where their heads at?

[ILYR]

And so it goes to Council for a final vote. At least the FP report was CLEAR about the piece of land in question. Why are the Friends so intractable about the location of the interpretive centre?

There is a simple solution to this problem. The Friends must have the interpretive centre on the piece of land where the apartment tower will be built. Fine, then on the main floor of the apartment building (and maybe part of the second as a balcony to look down onto the fort area) have the interpretive centre. The apartment can easily incorporate the interpretive centre into the overall design, with condo/apartments rising up from it. In fact this joint project could very well be a better overall design. Ohh but wait working together is not an option. Sorry I forgot.

[MooseJets]

Another 500-Thousand For The Fort
MAR 12 2008 04:50 PM


The Friends of Upper Fort Garry is excited with the news the Winnipeg Foundation is contributing half-a-million dollars to its fundraising campaign.
The group's capital campaign chair Bob Cunningham tells CJOB with the donation the Friends of the Fort still needs 400-thousand dollars to meet its private fundraising goal of 3.5 million with 19-days to go. He stresses the importance of grassroots support adding donations have ranged from five dollars to a thousand. Cunningham says the group will also meet with Premier Doer soon to discuss the province's final contribution, adding the 1.5 million dollars already committed was to show support for the project. After meeting with Doer, Cunningham says the group will sit down with Senior Federal Minister Vic Toews looking for a donation matching what the province is giving.

Next Wednesday, city council will debate a motion by St. Boniface Councillor Dan Vandal to cancel the March 31st deadline imposed by the city to raise funds.

CJOB's Colleen Bready reporting.

[j.online]

importance of grassroots support

What's funny is that there's nothing grass roots about the Friend's project at all. I swear this whole thing sounds more & more like the elitist kids hanging out in the Manitoba Club just want their very own 'world class' park in their backyard. I suppose we should be thankful it's not exclusive like their clubhouse is.

[1ajs]

we already have a world class park

[Greco Roman]

I'm really getting sick and tired of the Friends's "it's my way or the highway" bullying attitude.

As far as I am concerned, the *ahem* enemies *ahem* can fuck right off.

Winnipeg can use less "friends" like them.

[Greco Roman]

Doesn't their group name "The Friends" sound like a good title for a horror movie?

Aaaaggghhhh! It's the return of The Friends!

Every man, woman and child for themselves!

:P

[Spocket]

^Actually, every time they're referred to as 'Friends' I think of the Ambiguously Gay Duo. I wonder if Ace and Gary are on the team ?

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6897/ambgay1jc9.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ambgay1jc9.jpg)
Uh...I guess NBC gets credit for this.

[MooseJets]

Friends of the Fort Reach Initial Fundraising Target
MAR 14 2008 12:10 PM

Upper Fort Garry has found two more friends.
John and Bonnie Buhler have stepped forward with a 500-thousand dollar donation for the fundraising campaign.

Friends of the Fort say the gift brings the public fundraising total to more than 3.5 million dollars. Dr. Jerry Gray says while the initial public fundraising target has now been met, any additional donations big or small ..would still be greatly appreciated.

CJOB News

[jimj_wpg]

we already have a world class park

wich won?

[1ajs]

wich won?

there we go ;)

[theruler462]

Finally! Thank you Bartley, thank you

With Friends like these, does Upper Fort Garry need enemies?
Campaign no gain
By: Bartley Kives

Updated: March 15, 2008 at 06:35 AM CDT

Whenever somebody issues an urgent plea to "save" some sort of precious thing, you had better think twice about that special something in question.

All around the globe, kind-hearted, caring people are being wooed by earnest websites to do everything from "save the children" to "save the rainforest" to "save the black-tailed prairie dog" -- all noble and worthy causes -- as well as join rather more dubious campaigns, which include the quirky, the sarcastic and even the outright ridiculous.

At savethedeli.com, you can help preserve "the cultural heritage and taste of Deli throughout the world, for future generations to enjoy and savour." True enough, a world without chopped liver or pickled herring is a world no child should ever experience.

Meanwhile, savethehumans.com advocates the precise opposite of its name. And at zapatopi.net, dim-witted conservationists are encouraged to "save the Pacific Northwest tree octopus," which of course does not exist.

Here in Winnipeg, nobody is urging you or anyone else to save a nonexistent species of arboreal mollusc, kill off the human race or preserve endangered delicatessens.

But you are being exhorted to "save Upper Fort Garry," an 19th-century trading post that was dismantled in stages in the 1880s. And this campaign is not a hoax, despite the fact the ability to travel back in time is currently beyond the technological means of anyone in this city -- including well-meaning fundraisers and wealthy philanthropists.

Make no mistake, what used to be Upper Fort Garry -- land currently sitting below a surplus city building at 100 Main St., the Grain Exchange Curling Club on Fort Street and a patch of asphalt on Main Street itself -- is arguably Winnipeg's most important historic site. The former fort is both the birthplace of this city and this province as a whole, given its role in the Red River Resistance led by Louis Riel.

But the fort itself can not be "saved" any more than Riel himself can be saved, seeing as the man swung from the gallows near Regina in 1885.

And I say this not because I have any problem with efforts to build a heritage park at 100 Main St. and connect the historic site to The Forks.

In fact, I wholeheartedly support this effort -- just not the ridiculous rhetoric that's enveloped the debate, thanks to an effective but disingenuous public-relations campaign waged by some of the park's supporters.

If you listen to the Friends of Upper Fort Garry, the volunteer group advocating the creation of a $12.5-million heritage park that would cover both 100 Main St. and a second parcel of surplus city land at the corner of Fort Street and Assiniboine Avenue, the evil powers that be at City Hall are trying to pave over paradise.

Ever since last spring, when city council's downtown development committee voted to sell that second parcel to an apartment building developer, the Friends have been crying foul, even though that very same original vote called for the city to enter into negotiations with the group to build a heritage park on the rest of the site.

So what was wrong with building a heritage park on Main Street, with an apartment building located to the immediate southwest?

The answer: The Friends had a plan to place an interpretive centre where the new residential building would be erected, and did not want to see that plan altered by the city's decision.

Of course, that decision was revisited in the fall, after an archeological survey found Upper Fort Garry's former footprint a little further to the west, encroaching on the land to be sold to Crystal Developers.

Faced with a vote to lower the sale price to Crystal, the downtown development committee changed tacks and voted to allow the Friends of Upper Fort Garry to develop the entire site -- provided they raise $10 million by April Fool's Day and purchase the Grain Exchange Curling Club.

At the time, the Friends said this would not be a problem. After all, some of Winnipeg's most prominent citizens -- well-meaning fundraisers and wealthy philanthropists included -- had agreed to place their names on a piece of paper endorsing the Friends' cause.

But there's a big difference between agreeing to see your name on some charity letterhead and actually ponying up a big pile of cash. This is what Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz suspected when he signed on to the plan to give the Friends a few scant months to come up with the money.

Katz basically called the Friends on a bluff -- and now it looks as if the mayor has won.

With two weeks and two days to go before the deadline, the Friends of Upper Fort Garry have all but conceded they can't raise the cash. Hence the recent, more urgent campaign to "save Upper Fort Garry" -- even though nobody is proposing to build anything but a heritage park at the former fort's site.

Allow me to repeat this: There is nobody in Winnipeg advocating anything other than the creation of a heritage park at 100 Main St. What the Friends and their supporters are quibbling over is the second parcel of land, at the corner of Fort Street and Assiniboine Avenue.

Both Katz and Manitoba Premier Gary Doer consider the Friends' plan to be too big and too expensive. But they're willing to go along with a smaller park at 100 Main St. -- and the same can be said about Crystal Developers.

The Friends know this, but they're still sticking with their original plan, even though a park could be created with much less cash and rancour if they would only compromise.

But they would rather sit back and watch Winnipeggers get spun into believing Upper Fort Garry is in danger, when in fact their all-or-nothing game is the only thing that truly imperils the park.

Unless we hear a little less jingoism and see a little more pragmatism from the Friends over the next two weeks, their cause is all but doomed.

In the mean time, long live Upper Fort Garry -- and long live the Canadian Prairie tree octopus.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

[Greco Roman]

Faced with a vote to lower the sale price to Crystal, the downtown development committee changed tacks and voted to allow the Friends of Upper Fort Garry to develop the entire site -- provided they raise $10 million by April Fool's Day and purchase the Grain Exchange Curling Club.

How fitting, since this whole scenario is nothing but a big joke anyways :rolleyes:

[Biff]

Finally the truth comes out in the main stream media. It was making me sick too see the wool pulled over Winnipeggers eyes regarding this issue with the so called "Friends" influence over the Free Press and CJOB.

[trueviking]

excellent article by bartley.....finally.

my lingering concern is that the developer of the tower plans to build it for $80 per aquare foot.....i am worried that after this long fight he will construct a commie block a la henderson highway....that is less than half the cost of most construction these days.

[j.online]

i think you have bigger reasons for concern now...

Feds Come Through For Fort
MAR 17 2008 01:50 PM

Vic Toews says the Upper Fort Garry Heritage Park Complex will receive a priority federal funding commitment of $1.5 million from Western Economic Diversification Canada.

The Feds say the commitment hinges on the initiative meeting "all applicable federal eligibility requirements," including the completion of a due diligence review.

The project is set to begin in the spring of 2008 and continue in phases for five years.

CJOB News

[Biff]

i think you have bigger reasons for concern now...


Feds Come Through For Fort
MAR 17 2008 01:50 PM

Vic Toews says the Upper Fort Garry Heritage Park Complex will receive a priority federal funding commitment of $1.5 million from Western Economic Diversification Canada.

The Feds say the commitment hinges on the initiative meeting "all applicable federal eligibility requirements," including the completion of a due diligence review.

The project is set to begin in the spring of 2008 and continue in phases for five years.

CJOB News

Yea...but i think the Friends needed $3.5 mil each from the Feds and the Province.

They estimated their "World Class" project in the $12 mil range. They have raised $3 mil or $4 mil, $1.5 mil from the Province and now $1.5 mil from the Feds. My admittedly rudimentary math puts that at about $6 mil to $7 mil. Still about $6 mil short.

[j.online]

phew! thx for the quick math lesson, Biff. I thought I read 10.5 million from the feds.

[Tower Crane]

You know I used to work across from this site in The North West Company Building for 9 years wondering what would ever happen across the street at the old Fort. Well I couldn't be any more disappointed, I've seen the pages and pages dedicated to this from grand highrise condo plans to a world class heritage site.
It appears Winnipeg will be left with a glorified park and or at the square footage price quoted a shoe box stumpy condo at best.
Great!

[Lee_Haber8]

You know I used to work across from this site in The North West Company Building for 9 years wondering what would ever happen across the street at the old Fort. Well I couldn't be any more disappointed, I've seen the pages and pages dedicated to this from grand highrise condo plans to a world class heritage site.
It appears Winnipeg will be left with a glorified park and or at the square footage price quoted a shoe box stumpy condo at best.
Great!

That's Winnipeg for you! A constant disappointment.

[1ajs]

That's Winnipeg for you! A constant disappointment.

witch is a shame wtf do we have to do to change that?

[WpG_GuY]

You know I used to work across from this site in The North West Company Building for 9 years wondering what would ever happen across the street at the old Fort. Well I couldn't be any more disappointed, I've seen the pages and pages dedicated to this from grand highrise condo plans to a world class heritage site.
It appears Winnipeg will be left with a glorified park and or at the square footage price quoted a shoe box stumpy condo at best.
Great!

i work there now and always think the exact same thing.

[The Jabroni]

Winnipeg: Where disappointing dreams come true.

Oh the irony! :(

...and great article by Bartley! I too was getting sick and tired of being invited to such a joke group on facebook.

[wags_in_the_peg]

A Winnipeg city councillor is making a last desperate plea in his effort to preserve the site of the city's birth.

St. Boniface Coun. Dan Vandal issued a statement this morning expressing concern that his bid to save the Upper Fort Garry site in downtown Winnipeg could fail.

Vandal tabled a motion last month urging the city to extend the deadline for a non-profit group that wants to convert the Upper Fort Garry site into an interpretive centre.

Two city hall committees have since debated Vandal's motion and all city councillors vote on the issue tomorrow.

If the motion fails and the city upholds the March 31 deadline, the Friends of Upper Fort Garry will have until the end of the month to raise $10 million and meet other conditions set by the city's Downtown Development committee last December.

Despite recent contributions from some high-profile Winnipeggers and a commitment from the provincial government, that might not be easy.

If the group does not meet the city's conditions, the city will sell part of the Upper Fort Garry land to a developer for the building of a highrise apartment.

"I defy anyone to tell Winnipeggers that this is an appropriate way to treat the birthplace of Manitoba," Vandal said, in an e-mail. "If my motion is defeated and the condominium tower is constructed 27 inches from the (former) west wall of the fort -- there is a serious lack of leadership in this city."

City council meets for a scheduled meeting Wednesday at 9:30 a.m.

joe.parakevas@freepress.mb.ca

[Spocket]

^Oh is Vandal's grandstanding irritating. Interesting that somebody else had to clarify on his behalf that there is no fort wall there right now.

[c vist]

Not sure why Vandal said 27 inches or Condos. It's a metre setback from the old Fort foundation (a Provincial requirement) and it is Apartments.

Come by City Hall at 9:30 Wednesday morning to see the fireworks ... I'll be there!

[1ajs]

Not sure why Vandal said 27 inches or Condos. It's a metre setback from the old Fort foundation (a Provincial requirement) and it is Apartments.

Come by City Hall at 9:30 Wednesday morning to see the fireworks ... I'll be there!
9:30 eh i shall be there

[Biff]

Any news??????

[fengshui]

No extension.

Vote Goes Against Fort Fundraising Deadline Extension
CJOB's Colleen Bready reporting
3/19/2008

Friends of the Fort lost a key vote at city hall Wednesday that would have extended its fundraising deadline.

The vote was 9 to 6 supporting the existing plan to allow a developer to proceed with a proposal to construct a 20 storey condo complex near the site after March 31st. However the Friends of the Fort still has until the end of the month to come up with the money it needs.

Many of the councillors voting against the deadline extension placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Doer government complaining it didn't come through with the level of contribution that was expected. They suggested the Federal government would have matched the Provincial funds which fell far short of what was required.

Wednesday morning, Premier Doer surprised many by suggesting a multi-million dollar interpretive centre at the site was too expensive. He suggested on CJOB, the site would be better served by knocking down a nearby Petro Canada gas station, and a civic building next door, which could both be replaced by green space.

[Biff]

I just heard the Friends lost their bid for extension by a 9 to 6 vote.

Excellent news!

Hopefully someone who was there can elaborate.

[Only The Lonely..]

Wednesday morning, Premier Doer surprised many by suggesting a multi-million dollar interpretive centre at the site was too expensive. He suggested on CJOB, the site would be better served by knocking down a nearby Petro Canada gas station, and a civic building next door, which could both be replaced by green space.


Uhhnn huh...

Because there really aren't enough underutilized public spaces in downtown Winnipeg.

Besides, Isn't that kinda what's there right now?

Its good to see the NDP isn't short on vision. :rolleyes:

[fengshui]

Freep's take on it:

Winnipeg Coun. Dan Vandal's last-ditch attempt to alter the city's deal with The Friends of Upper Fort Garry died on the floor of council this afternoon by the expected 9-6 margin.
Vandal (St. Boniface) wanted council to scrap a Dec. 13 deal that allows the volunteer group to build a heritage park on surplus city land along Main Street provided they raise $10 million by the end of March.
The Friends have only secured $6.6 million from public and private sources and must raise another $4.4 million by the end of the month if they want to prevent the city from selling a parcel of that land to Crystal Developers, which wants to build a 20-storey apartment building at the corner of Fort Street and Assiniboine Avenue.
Vandal wanted councillors to forget about the deadline and work out a compromise with Crystal Developers.
But other councillors argued that would open up the city to potential lawsuits, while Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz said the provincial and federal governments should have ponied up more cash.
The Friends of Upper Fort Garry have secured $1.5 million pledges from both Broadway and Ottawa, but were hoping to raise $4.5 million apiece from those levels of government.
The 9-6 vote followed a long and sometimes bitter debate that saw St. Norbert Coun. Justin Swandel accuse Vandal of political grandstanding.
Voting alongside Vandal were councillors Jenny Gerbasi, Lillian Thomas, Harvey Smith, Mike Pagtakhan and Grant Nordman.
Transcona Coun. Russ Wyatt was absent.

[rgalston]

Its good to see the NDP isn't short on vision. :rolleyes:

Oh come now, didn't you notice it was the Civic NDP Party, plus Coun. Nordman who voted in favor of Vandal's motion?...

[Greco Roman]

Freep's take on it:


If this is true, then I've regained SOME hope that all is not lost in terms of development in Winnipeg, but let's see how it all plays out in the end. I have a feeling there are still a few tricks up the Friend's sleeves that we will see soon enough.

BTW, anyone know why Wyatt was absent?

[fengshui]

I heard/read today that he was attending to a personal matter in Cuba.

And yes, there is still time for them to raise the money.

[1ajs]

i see why the friends lost the RFP.... they did not have a proper business plan for operating costs and such for long term witch is rather odd also one of the counclers mentioned why are we pro suing the crystal site when theres the petro can site witch is essayer then the crystal site cause anything can be bought for the right price....

one councler was for no building being built on the site at all witch he went on to mention gerbasi was the one that motioned the vote to sell the land to crystal in the first place........ witch he voted against and he vote against the extension for the friends of Fort Garry siting that voting for this extension is a rather stupid move for the city not to mention the wasted tax payers money in court fees witch was brought up several times by other councle members...

the friends still have till the 31st to raise the money for the 18. something million dollar project... thats including the land the city is giving thats worth 5-6 million


councilors kept referring to the tower as condos? someone finally after hours of this misinformation corrected this...

there was no reason whats so ever for this vote to of even happened.........

o yea when i got there this morning i spoke to one of the friends not knowing who i was talking to stating witch side i was on and why i got a rather interesting expression back then got brushed off...

sorry if this is rather garbled its all over the place... you spend the day listening to it and all the little nick fits these counclers have over formatlities ect :yuck: its stupid...

but the real battle at city hall is not the fort i think its the study that came from the transportion comission this week... thats looking to get real ugly thats somthing the meadia should be paying more atention to............................. did you guys know theres less cars on our roads today there in 1996?

[1ajs]

Oh come now, didn't you notice it was the Civic NDP Party, plus Coun. Nordman who voted in favor of Vandal's motion?...

that was brought up at the councle meeting and there was some mudslinging......
katz started reading from an artical from feb that was published in the freep about the premiers stance on this and thomas proceeded to interrupt the mayor saying reading news papers is not aloud the the speaker told her basically to shut up with these procedure interruptions :haha:

[1ajs]

BTW, anyone know why Wyatt was absent?

apparentlyhes off on some secret mission for the mayor :haha:

[viperred88]

what a shame the city rushes for people to make a proposal on a heritage site which should take time to be well planned out.

I would of liked to have seen centre venture and the forks north portage in on this and maybe the friends as a private/public partnership

well if crystal developers I would hope its still that same design that blends with upper fort garry.

[1ajs]

what a shame the city rushes for people to make a proposal on a heritage site which should take time to be well planned out.

I would of liked to have seen centre venture and the forks north portage in on this and maybe the friends as a private/public partnership

well if crystal developers I would hope its still that same design that blends with upper fort garry.
actualy the friends had been working on this for over 10 years

[c vist]

Nice meeting you today AJ ... hope you enjoyed the show!

[1ajs]

Nice meeting you today AJ ... hope you enjoyed the show!

:cheers:

txs for posting the time of that

BTW how long did the media tie you up after the vote?

[trueviking]

^ a star is born...nice tie.

[Spocket]

Well, finally we get some good news and it appears that common sense has prevailed.

Incidentally, yeah, why the heck have we not been trying to get the gas station off that corner ? If anything must go , that's it. I would be all for that actually although I wouldn't ever be in favour of telling Petro Canada to get off the property. I'm sure they'd sell for the right price.

[drew]

^ Speak of the devil...

It's time for Plan B

By TOM BRODBECK

If nothing else, the heated debate over the future of Upper Fort Garry -- one of Western Canada's most important historical structures -- will give the issue the political attention it needs.

The north-side gate, the only thing remaining of the former fort -- where Louis Riel set up a provisional government and negotiated the terms of Manitoba's entry into Confederation -- has been rotting behind a gas station for decades.

Politicians haven't given a rat's rear-end about the gate and have been quite happy to allow it to be used by night-time drunks as an outdoor urinal.

They've given Upper Fort Garry lip service from time to time, but it hasn't been a priority for any level of government.

Fortunately, that may be about to change.

Barring some sugar-daddy coming along at the 11th-hour with a bag full of money, it appears the ambitious plan by the Friends of Fort Garry to use land next to the gate to build a large interpretive centre has been dashed.

Instead, it looks like Crystal Developers will get the green light to build its apartment building behind the gate on what is surplus city land.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It doesn't encroach on the historical site and brings much-needed housing to the downtown -- and tax revenue.

One of downtown Winnipeg's biggest problems is not enough people live there. A 17-storey apartment block would help in that regard.

Councillors like Dan Vandal and Jenny Gerbasi don't want an apartment there. They say it would be devastating to the future of Upper Fort Garry.

They're hypocrites, though. They haven't done a damn thing over the past 10 years to develop or protect Upper Fort Garry, even though they used to be in former mayor Glen Murray's inner-circle of power.

Suddenly, they're jumping on the bandwagon.

Truth be known, Gerbasi voted in favour of selling that surplus land to Crystal Developers last year.

Say what? It's true.

She now says she made a mistake. Whatever.

The reality is, an apartment block behind the historical site will not harm Upper Fort Garry. What harms the gate is the Petro Canada gas station that blocks its view and prevents it from being properly showcased.

Mayor Sam Katz said yesterday he's willing to enter into discussions with Premier Gary Doer on the idea of buying the gas station out, demolishing it and opening up green space to properly develop the Upper Fort Garry site.

Now that would be a hell of a deal.

The federal and provincial governments have pledged $1.5 million each toward the site. And if the Friends of Fort Garry are truly committed to the site, they would funnel some or all of the $3.6 million they've raised into this Plan B.

Add to that the fact Crystal Developers pledged to city council yesterday to work closely with the Friends of Upper Fort Garry and government to develop an interpretive centre at the existing site, and we may have something here.

The main thing is political will and momentum.

The key is to keep Katz and Doer's feet to the fire on this while the coals are hot.

Otherwise, the apartment block gets built, the politicians lose interest and the gate continue to deteriorate behind a gas station.

Katz pledged in front of reporters yesterday that within 30 days he will meet with Doer about the gas station.

So we'll ask him again about it April 19.

The Friends of Upper Fort Garry's original plan may be off.

But that doesn't mean this historical site can't be properly preserved and developed.

[flatlander]

^ a star is born...nice tie.

Please post pictures of the tie. For urban design review of course.

[bimbamboom]

Great article by Tom Brodbeck. He is a voice of reason on many topics in this city.

[1ajs]

if they get rid of the gas station a new one has to go up somewhere cause aww its the only gas station downtown :S

petro can don't own that gas station its privetly owned by some family no and the city in the past has tried to sell it even trade land and have been denied.. but the gas station is still eassayer option then the crystal site..

[The Jabroni]

Someone will have to do a few arm twistings to get rid of that gas station. It's been blocking that gate for God knows how long.

[drew]

^ it will more than likely require a very costly environmental remediation after the gas is gone just to redevelop anything on that site...

Perhaps the owners of that Petro Can are a little afraid of what might be uncovered after they sell that site.

[ILYR]

^ it will more than likely require a very costly environmental remediation after the gas is gone just to redevelop anything on that site...

Perhaps the owners of that Petro Can are a little afraid of what might be uncovered after they sell that site.

My guess it will turn out that fuel from the gas station has migrated south and filled up the entire fort site.:haha: Then the whole block will get closed off and will have to be excavated to 10 metres removing the remaining foundation of the fort and killing the appartment complex on the adjacent parcel of land. Now that would funny.:haha:

[swolfe]

This could work out very well for the city. One less surface lot, a new heritage site, a new downtown highrise apartment, and we could be rid of that Petro station. I'm sure the details will change, but this sounds good to me.

[1ajs]

we still need a gast station downtown though.....

[vid]

You have plenty of other parking lots that can be gas stations. Pick one! Any one! Hell, have twenty! We have plenty!!

[viperred88]

we still need a gast station downtown though.....

You know I am surprised that someone in this world hasn't built an express gas station into a parkade. For one thing it would hide the unsightly gas station and you would have a gas bar as a storefront.

anybody think this would work?

[viperred88]

actualy the friends had been working on this for over 10 years

Really? I thought it was just brought up off and on by other the historical society and not Friends.

[viperred88]

Everybody just needs to work together and not rush on this precious piece of history.

The exodus of Petro Canada would be a huge plus, and if we can get the Forks north portage so it is well incorporated with the forks, I mean why not they are right beside it.

Even though my idea isn't part of the plan I personally I wouldn't mind a total redevelopment as an exact replica of the fort. Though the walls would have to act as arches above certain developed areas like main street.

Replica can be done well especially now since we have the technology and that the Hydro building north of city hall looks great. Even the carlton building looks pretty old but its not. Some locals may not like it because we its a replica but I bet you alot of tourist would come say wow. It would certainly recapture the great history as to how this city and province was born. It would certainly draw in more tourists all year round as does the Plains of Abraham.

[Spocket]

^I know some people really despise replicas and usually I agree with them. In this case, I figure "why not ?". After all, what is anybody planning to build on the 'park' land anyway ? They didn't have green aluminum roofing or reflective glass in widespread use at the time so what the hell, if we're going for broke anyway we might as well build a replica of the original fort. It's not going to be authentic either way. We could at least provide people with the illusion which is, after all, the whole idea I would think.

[viperred88]

Exactly why build something thats doesn't look historic if its suppose look it I just don't understand that concept. My idea of a total recreating the Fort is something we once had. It will obviously take alot of money to do this but we can take our time and build it, build it little by little in phases.

Besides its not like we are Las Vegas or Dubai where they recreate other countries architecture,

[bomberguy]

^ That is so sad. wow.

[viperred88]

^ That is so sad. wow.

Nobody seems to have with the Hydro office north of city hall which is built as total replica from the time before and the Carlton building on portage (anchor tenant warehouse one) is also not an old builiding. If built right it works.

[vid]

When we built Fort William, they used 19th century building materials and built it with 19th century methods. The result is an extremely realistic place. Building a replica of Fort Garry elsewhere is something I've already mentioned and something forumers have disagreed with, so the issue was laid to rest.

[bomberguy]

Nobody seems to have with the Hydro office north of city hall which is built as total replica from the time before and the Carlton building on portage (anchor tenant warehouse one) is also not an old builiding. If built right it works.


Oops wrong thread haha. Wasn't towards your post. I agree with you though. :)

[viperred88]

When we built Fort William, they used 19th century building materials and built it with 19th century methods. The result is an extremely realistic place. Building a replica of Fort Garry elsewhere is something I've already mentioned and something forumers have disagreed with, so the issue was laid to rest.

perhaps us winnipegers should leave our backyards and stop beeing small minded and check out your fort which is only 5-6 hours away. I believe you when you say "The result is an extremely realistic place." about your fort, I have looked a several pictures and I can't see why not it couldn't work here. We may not be able to build the entire fort but it would still be a great way to proudly resurrect the birthplace of this city and province. Even if the walls that would run main street would have arches or gaps instead of a full wall it would still work.

The Greeks themselves are rebuilding Acropolis


Oops wrong thread haha. Wasn't towards your post. I agree with you though. :)

oh lol

[viperred88]

Friends of Upper Fort Garry score summit
By: Gordon Sinclair Jr. / winnipeg Free Press

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4146545p-4736342c.html

Updated: March 20 at 04:55 PM CDT

Print Article E-mail Article The Friends of Upper Fort Garry have something to celebrate.

It looks as if there’s finally going to be a high-level summit of sorts on the future of the historic site where the province of Manitoba was conceived.

“We are going to get everyone in the same room,” Friends of Upper Fort Garry spokesman Jerry Gray said today after meeting with Premier Gary Doer.

At least the Premier has agreed to meet with the other major political players.

“They proposed it,” Doer said, “and I think it’s a good idea.”

Thursday afternoon Gray was still trying to contact the other pivitol political players, federal minister responsible for Manitoba, Vic Toews, and Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz.

Katz told reporters on Tuesday that he would be willing to meet with Doer and the Friends.

The hoped-for meeting comes at a crucial time for the Friends.

They are facing a March 31 deadline to raise $3.4 million or lose their dream of developing the long-neglected site as a “world-class” heritage park.

Back in December a Katz-brokered deal gave them 109 days to raise $10 million if they wanted to take control of what amounts to a city-owned block that contains most of the 19th Century fur-fort’s footprint.

Otherwise a developer would be sold a parcel of land immediately adjacent to where the west wall stood.

The Friends envision putting a $9-million interpretive centre on that parcel.

Crystal Developers plan to erect a 21-storey high-rise apartment tower where the first “four-or-five” floors would be a parking garage. Gray said the meeting with the Doer went well, even if the Premier didn’t change his mind about the Friend’s vision being too expensive.

“The conclusion is we don’t have any obvious answers,” Gray said, ‘but let’s sit down and talk about it.”

Meanwhile, the Friend’s fund-raising carries on.

Tax-deductible contributions can be made on a one-time basis, pledged monthly or over five years.

Cheques can be made payable to Heritage Winnipeg for Upper Fort Garry, 509-63 Albert Street, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3B 1G4.

All donations will be held in trust.

[nordique]

i love how in every article, "world class" is always in quotation marks, almost sarcastically. better yet no one even knows what that even means.

[vid]

Lots of people write into the Chronicle Journal and say that Thunder Bay has a "world class" harbour and the adding condos will ruin it.

I always get a good laugh out of that. "Thunder Bay" and "world class" shouldn't be used in the same paragraph, let alone sentence!

[Pootkao]

Great article by Tom Brodbeck. He is a voice of reason on many topics in this city.

95% of the time Brodbeck is a misinformed fountain of unhelpful rhetoric. That particular article though is spot-on.

[trueviking]

brace yourselves for bad news boys....the grape vine is screaming.

[drew]

^ something to do with this...?

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/story/4149237p-4738909c.html

Provincial park status for Upper Fort Garry?
Gordon Sinclair Jr.

How does this sound? Upper Fort Garry Provincial Park.

Last Saturday I was musing about Premier Gary Doer giving himself a birthday present -- and all of us a birthplace gift.

Now it looks as if it could be on the way to happening.

Doer turns 60 on Monday -- the same day the Friends of Upper Fort Garry must have $10 million in pledges if they are to secure the fort's remaining footprint and an adjacent parcel of land that, otherwise, gets sold to a high-rise apartment developer.

But Tuesday afternoon, as the premier, Mayor Sam Katz and federal minister Vic Toews met collectively with the Friends for the first time, Doer tossed a surprise solution on the table.

At least it was a surprise to Friends spokesman Jerry Gray.

Here's how he remembers it.

They were gathered at Toews' Winnipeg office on the eighth floor of the Cargill Building.

Over cookies and coffee, if that matters.

Gray, the American-born Dean Emeritus of the Asper School of Business, was in the midst of explaining the Friends' fundraising position -- they're still $3.7 million short -- when the premier interjected.

"And he said, 'Well, there's another way to do it,' " Gray recalled. " 'And that's to make it a provincial park.' "

Right in the heart of Winnipeg.

Gray said under the premier's proposed park, the province would take over administration of the site where Manitoba was conceived by M ©tis leader Louis Riel in 1869 and granted its birth certificate by Ottawa in 1870.

Gray stressed that the provincial park plan isn't a done deal.

The Friends also have to do another deal and secure the purchase of the Grain Exchange Curling Club, which encroaches on the fort's footprint.

Although that's not anticipated to be a problem.

The problem is there's not much time left to do the whole deal that was dictated to the Friends last December by the city. But that's why the premier's "creative solution", as Gray called it, is so vital.

"It opens up other areas of funding," Gray said.

Meaning the money that's needed to make the deadline.

"We feel with the money that will be coming with this we'll meet our $10 million commitment. That's the key to moving this ahead."

Meeting the March 31 deadline would secure the parcel of land immediately adjacent to the footprint. That's the property on the southwest corner which Crystal Developers wants for a 20-storey-plus apartment tower and the Friends insist they need for an interpretive centre.

"The primary thing is to get the property," Gray said.

Interestingly that's exactly what I told the premier when we spoke over the phone last week.

Secure the site.

The Friends would be willing to scale back the $9 million interpretive centre, I suggested.

But they can't do that -- they won't do that -- without having the parcel Crystal Developers wants for a towering apartment building that would overshadow the historic property.

What's also still unknown is precisely what Doer has in mind in the way of a provincial park.

He is on the record with me as wanting what he called a "green corridor" from Bonneycastle Park on the river to Broadway.

What isn't known is whether a provincial park would include an indoor interpretive centre and where the government would locate it.

The Friends, said Gray, won't compromise their basic vision -- or use money gathered in trust from the public who gave with that vision in mind.

Anyway, Gray and the Friends may have been pleasantly surprised by the premier's solution.

But I doubt that he came up with it the day before.

By the time we spoke, the premier probably knew he had the provincial park deal up his sleeve. I only say that because I received a phone call late last week.

The politically plugged-in person on the other end had a question that, even then, sounded like a statement.

"Have you heard anything about the fort site becoming a provincial park?"

"No." I answered.

But now I have. And somehow I gotta believe that Gary Doer can and will make it happen.

Happy Birthday, Mr. Premier.

gordon.sinclair@freepress.mb.ca

Parks in the city

There are only two provincial parks within Winnipeg, St. Norbert Provincial Heritage Park and the Trappist Monastery Provincial Heritage Park.

Several provincial parks are just outside the city -- Beaudry, Duff Roblin, River Road, and Birds Hill.

Memorial Park immediately north of the Legislature is provincial land, which the city maintains.

The Forks is a federal park.

[Greco Roman]

Bahahaha! I'm guessing this isn't some sort of April fool's joke, unfortunately.

Sigh.

[trueviking]

more than that....i will let official people make official statements.

[Greco Roman]

Can someone tell me if there were indeed any [recent] public hearings held as to the fate of this site? Is this what the public wants? What is the public opinion? There seems to be an overabundance of hearings for every other small to large scale project that happens in this city, you would think that the same would be done for this project. I haven't heard anything in the sense of public hearings which makes me ask this question thinking that none have occured; am I wrong?

[1ajs]

other then the the couple debates at city no greco

[vid]

Awww. You tired. :(

:pet:

[Spocket]

If I was in charge of Crystal I'd give the city the finger and tell them to keep their land while I packed up and left for Alberta. This just can't be worth the trouble for them.

[RAFS]

If I was in charge of Crystal I'd give the city the finger and tell them to keep their land while I packed up and left for Alberta. This just can't be worth the trouble for them.
You don't know how funny that really is .....

[Greco Roman]

You don't know how funny that really is .....

And the reason it's funny is because it's true.

And honestly, I've visited several forum addressing this issue, and based on what I have read, it would seem that Winnipeggers and not happy with the way this situation is being handled. I really think that a public hearing should be held on this subject. And why not? Every other frekin project in this city has hearings because they claim they want to do what's best for the citizens of Winnipeg. If this is the case, then why are there no public hearings scheduled? Why is this park being shoved down people's throats?

[pegcityboy]

I sure hope the city and province can work with Crystal just like they apparently did with the friends and find another piece of land for them .I see no reason why we cant have BOTH projects!! We need more people living downtown.

[Boreal]

...This is long past the point of ridiculous. Buy out the gas station, and then you have a location for the interpretive centre, the park and the apartment complex. I'm long past the point of fury on this topic. The complete and utter inflexibility on behalf of Winnipeg's wealthiest in this particular situation is going to result in a very poor development, relative to what could have been.

Lets call this park whats it really going to be. A nice dog park for the residents of West Broadway. Hopefully a pooper-scooper law is enforced.

[h0twired]

So any ideas as to when the news trueviking mentioned is going to be released?

[fengshui]

This?
Manitoba Metis Federation has contributed $1 million to the Friends of Upper Fort Garry.
MMF president David Chartrand's announcement today put the organization's total fundraising at $8.2 million dollars.
That's $2.8 million short of the $10 million they need to raise by Monday if they are to secure the birth site of Manitoba, including a parcel of land adjacent to the 19th century fur trade fort that will otherwise be sold to a high rise developer.


Given Doer's statements today, I think Crystal can kiss their apartment goodbye. It's over.

[Biff]

This?


Given Doer's statements today, I think Crystal can kiss their apartment goodbye. It's over.


So in other words, we can expect nothing to happen. The "Friends" will certainly fuck this thing up some how, it will turn into an even bigger circus than it already is (if that is even possible) and the developer who was to build 200+ apartments, to bring more peole downtown will sue the city for breaking a legal contract costing us taxpayer money out of our pockets.

....not to mention the fact that now I, as a taxpayer will have to fund this thing yearly to make it run so the rich at the Manitoba club (re "Friends") will have something nice to look at as they eat dinner. :(

[j.online]

I would love for someone in the media to publish what this deal is really about: phase 2 the Manitoba Club's "Building Traditions" renovation plans.

Here's part of phase 1's renovations:
http://lh5.google.com/j.online/R-1P4PGjrWI/AAAAAAAAAHA/iWJG0RfV6Jk/s400/manitoba_club.png

And quoted from their website (full text here (https://www.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourID=14336)):
Phase 2, which will begin mid 2008, will include ... a complete upgrade of the Fort Garry Gate Dining Room

why would anyone want a high-rise apartment with its pesky inhabitants looking down on our rooftop patio, when you could have an unimpeded view of the river forest with your very own world-class backyard.

i hope the curling club sticks it to 'em and holds out for millions.

[Greco Roman]

This waste of a space park will do nothing except attract hobo's and degenerates, and punk kid vandals who will destroy the interprative centre, and also serve as yet another area to deal drugs and fight their turf wars in. At least with an appartment complex on the site, there would have been more eyes watching out for shit like that.

I solumly vow never to set foot on that site in my entire life; ever :hell:

[ILYR]

After doing some extensive undercover investigation I found the plans for the REAL Friends fort plan.
Here it is ...

http://www.ualberta.ca/~drogge/images/fort_plan_sm.jpg

:cool:

[harls]

^ ha!

Will the friends be able to scrounge up the additional $1.8 million by Monday?

The air is thick with suspense..

[Only The Lonely..]

From vacant lot -> 30 story skyscraper -> 20 story midrise -> to restored fort -> and back to vacant lot.


And so the cycle of mediocrity in this once great city continues.. :rolleyes:

I can't help but to think that the blame for this lies squarely at the hands of the media and their sloppy job reporting of the facts.

[RAFS]

And in breaking news...................


Developer walks away from fort site

By: Bartley Kives

Updated: March 28 at 04:23 PM CDT

The Friends of Upper Fort Garry no longer need to scramble to raise cash for a heritage park on the site of Winnipeg's birthplace because the apartment developer promised a chunk of that land has agreed to step aside.

Crystal Developers has agreed to give the Friends two more years to meet a $10 million fundraising deadline that was originally slated to expire on Monday.

This effectively means the volunteer group will gain access to all of the land it desired, ending a sometimes bitter city hall saga that pitted downtown housing proponents against heritage advocates for nearly a year.

Crystal Developers owner Rubin Spletzer said he was offered no financial incentives to walk away from a $1.2 million deal to purchase a parcel of surplus city land at the corner of Fort Street and Assiniboine Avenue, which the Friends covet as the site of an interpretive centre.

Instead, he felt it was the right thing to do as a citizen of Winnipeg. His company will now pursue plans for a development along Sterling Lyon Parkway, but will soon look for somewhere else in downtown Winnipeg to build some form of apartment building.

His actions were praised by Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz and Friends spokesman Jerry Gray, who joked his group will raise $300 million over the next two years, given the fact they were able to raise $8.2 million from public and private sources over the past 106 days.

The latest donation came today from the Manitoba Metis Federation, which contributed $1 million to the Friends of Upper Fort Garry.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

[Kitty Surprise]

I would love for someone in the media to publish what this deal is really about: phase 2 the Manitoba Club's "Building Traditions" renovation plans.

Here's part of phase 1's renovations:
http://lh5.google.com/j.online/R-1P4PGjrWI/AAAAAAAAAHA/iWJG0RfV6Jk/s400/manitoba_club.png

And quoted from their website (full text here (https://www.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourID=14336)):


why would anyone want a high-rise apartment with its pesky inhabitants looking down on our rooftop patio, when you could have an unimpeded view of the river forest with your very own world-class backyard.

i hope the curling club sticks it to 'em and holds out for millions.

This information should be given to the media! Raise a stink! Let the public know that the Rich elite really only care about their precious club. Sneaky untrustworthy NIMBYS of the worst kind! The Fort is just a convenient sob-story excuse to hide their real ambitions behind.

The worst part is that this outdoor dining plan will probably fail anyways because of mosquitos and urban noise and nosey onlookers (myself included Muahahaha.... Just you wait... just you wait...)

Honestly, I can't even begin to put into words the anger I feel towards the @#$% sneaky Friends and their puppets in the media.