[Dougall5505]

background on the project: http://portlandmall.org/
I guess this is really pre-construction but I thought it was time for a thread
right now they are reinforcing the road on 4th avenue for the extra heavy traffic
http://static.flickr.com/85/268948323_bb5c8be822.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/85/268948218_a4bd027f3a.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/97/268948127_fd8c9dd901.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/87/268947880_ac6cba17cd.jpg?v=0
i don't know what to call this but its new
http://static.flickr.com/82/268947571_23ebca30c3.jpg?v=0

http://static.flickr.com/112/268947663_ca349de804.jpg?v=0
hadn't seen this rendering before, the shelters do look a little lacking
http://portlandmall.org/images/shelterrendering.jpg

[Black Box]

I checked this out on Tri-Met's site and it looks awesome. I'm going to be in Portland tomorrow and the only thing that I don't like about the Mall is the slippery when wet sidewalks. I might have mentioned it before, but maybe it's because I walk too fast or something. Oh well.

[asher519]

:previous:

i agree, they are quite slippery--though i walk rather fast as well. hopefully the reconstruction and new brick paving will remedy that problem.

[zilfondel]

Some tidbits:

all the old brass & curved glass shelters on the current bus mall are going bye-bye to the scrap heap.

Check out trimet's website for maps on the exact details, but most of the bus traffic is being rerouted to 3rd and 4th for the duration of the construction, which will be around 3 years long.

Sewer relocation work going on by PSU on 6th ave right now... didn't know they are upgrading 3rd/4th though - news to me!

[Black Box]

:previous:

i agree, they are quite slippery--though i walk rather fast as well. hopefully the reconstruction and new brick paving will remedy that problem.

Okay, so, it's not just me. What would be the very best outfit to wear for the day in Portland tomorrow? Ya know, what is the best outfit for the day? I don't wear skirts. It could be a nice sensible pair of pants with a t-shirt and a hoodie and a man bag..... Just got a bit lost in your Grey Gardens bit. I love that film.

[alexjon]

They're already starting on the MAX stops?!

What are those concrete curb extensions?

[zilfondel]

They're already starting on the MAX stops?!

What are those concrete curb extensions?

No, those are for the relocated bus stops on 3rd/4th.

[alexjon]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh okay, thank god

I was about to scream "cart before horse!"

[zilfondel]

The schedule trimet posted for construction has them completing each section to 100% in about 3 months... then moving onto the next one. So we will see bits and pieces of the finished product soon enough next spring, but it won't be operational for awhile.

[asher519]

Okay, so, it's not just me. What would be the very best outfit to wear for the day in Portland tomorrow? Ya know, what is the best outfit for the day? I don't wear skirts. It could be a nice sensible pair of pants with a t-shirt and a hoodie and a man bag..... Just got a bit lost in your Grey Gardens bit. I love that film.

I think we're supposed to get quite a bit of rain tomorrow so you might want to wear a Persian shawl around your head (pinned under the chin, of course)... but an umbrella would work, too.

[zilfondel]

I think we're supposed to get quite a bit of rain tomorrow so you might want to wear a Persian shawl around your head (pinned under the chin, of course)... but an umbrella would work, too.

Rain? Shorts of course. Sheesh, you must not be from around here. ;)

[WonderlandPark]

What is the logic of running MAX on the bus mall, anyways? I have been out of the loop for a few years.

[65MAX]

What is the logic of running MAX on the bus mall, anyways? I have been out of the loop for a few years.

Was that a can of worms I just heard opening up? :brickwall:

[WonderlandPark]

Was that a can of worms I just heard opening up? :brickwall:

Sorry, I thought it would be controversial, seemes like a waste of money IMO, but been away from PDX for 3 years now, and haven't been up on the news.

If there is a cliffs notes version somewhere, please let me know and drop it on this thread ;)

[zilfondel]

There's a billion threads on it on portlandtransport.com, but I wouldn't dare tread over there as a newbie, due to all the Reason Policy, American Dream Coalition, etc types that populate it. But they did have some good discussion over it at one time...

If you visit the AORTA website, this is how they sum it up Trimet's argument:

* To enliven the Transit Mall and make it a great public space;
* To renovate it;
* To improve transit service;
* To support downtown retail commerce;
* To design and construct the Transit Mall, on schedule, within budget and with minimum impact.

BUT...

they say it won't increase rail capacity downtown because the steel bridge is a huge chokepoint. The "Y" switch on the east side already causes delays (buses, cars, peds and trains all going through the one key link in the system), and they will add another one on the west side which will cause double the delays. Plus all the additional trains as well.

That's their argument. I'm no expert, I am just going to wait and see. It probably won't be as bad as they say, but Trimet likely won't be able to increase the frequency of trains on the Interstate, Airport, or Blue lines beyond whatever max they have right now.

[pdxtraveler]

The other official reason was that the existing tracks were full so must move the Yellow and new green to the bus mall. Besides PSU is the single largest source of boarding in the downtown area and they don't have max service, now they well.

[NJD]

they say it won't increase rail capacity downtown because the steel bridge is a huge chokepoint. The "Y" switch on the east side already causes delays (buses, cars, peds and trains all going through the one key link in the system), and they will add another one on the west side which will cause double the delays. Plus all the additional trains as well.

Last time I read any news on this issue Trimet was in talks with the RR (Steel Bridge owner), ODOT and PDOT about the possibilities of;
-making the MAX track lanes only for LRT, removing the only part of bus, auto and MAX mixed-traffic on the entire system.
-in the future making the entire upper deck MAX (and maybe bus) only with 4 lanes of tracks, and free up developable land where the current on and off ramps for autos exist.
-full upgrades to the bridge lift joints which are the most time reducing aspects to MAX crossings.

the actual switches on either side of the bridge are being worked on as part of the mall project which will help capacity (the east side already has full traffic light priority, and the west side will be brand new) as well as having a new route through downtown for the Green and Yellow lines, leaving more room for the Blue and Red lines to expand (this leaves only the traffic lights, 200 ft blocks and the Steel Bridge joints as capacity restrictions).

[mcbaby]

I think its lame that they're trashing so many of the classic shelters. they should be reused. maybe as streetcar shelters. I think they're cool. they provide protection from the wind and they have an organic quality lacking in some of the more recent shelters.

[zilfondel]

^ They block the rain - it gets quite windy downtown. But since they are also reducing the width of the sidewalks along most of the mall, they'll need to more efficiently use the space, and the existing shelters do block the sidewalk.

[65MAX]

^^^^
The sidewalk widths are remaining the same on the bus stop side of 5th and 6th Aves. The only sidewalk reduction occurs on the six blocks where they are adding the through lane for autos, but that's on the opposite side of the street from the shelters.

[Dougall5505]

the first piece of art was temporarily removed from the mall http://portlandmall.org/news/sculpturemove.htm
http://portlandmall.org/images/kvinneakt.jpg

[65MAX]

I can still see her breasts. I'm glad they didn't cover her up completely... that would be wrong :D

[Dougall5505]

jeez i didn't even notice that...

[westsider]

In my opinion this whole transit mall update is a huge barrel of pork. The mall MAX is going to be a glorified bus to nowere, you can already jump on almost any bus on the mall and travel the whole lengh of it. There is absoluty no way to justify the massive cost of this project. We don't need any more surface light rail downtown cloging up traffic, especially when it will just be torn up in 20-30 years to bury it. I actually like the appearence of the current mall, its the garbage and bums that make it grimey. This is the kind of wasteful spending that would never happen if the voters had a say in it.

[pdxman]

In my opinion this whole transit mall update is a huge barrel of pork. The mall MAX is going to be a glorified bus to nowere, you can already jump on almost any bus on the mall and travel the whole lengh of it. There is absoluty no way to justify the massive cost of this project. We don't need any more surface light rail downtown cloging up traffic, especially when it will just be torn up in 20-30 years to bury it. I actually like the appearence of the current mall, its the garbage and bums that make it grimey. This is the kind of wasteful spending that would never happen if the voters had a say in it.
I definitely agree...tho you know that trimet wasn't going to turn down funding. That said, I would have rather seen this money go to our outdated bus system to improve service and buy new buses, maybe even BRT. I was just on a bus tonight and holy crap, i've never been on a colder, more damp bus before. Improving the bus "sector" of trimet should definitely be number one on the to-do list. I'm not against max, i just think if you're going to do any more max downtown, do it right.

[westsider]

Exactly. I wonder if trimet could have used the funding for a small spruceing up of the mall and used the rest on improvements to the current system. Or maybe even saved it to bury MAX later on.

[Dougall5505]

http://portlandmall.org/construction/index.htm#other
new construction update

[pdxman]

wow wow wow the more i am downtown on the bus mall the more i am convinced that the new transit mall design is a going to be a monumental mistake. They either need to get rid of the light rail or the car lane because there is no way its going to work. Its already a mess during rush hour with all the buses--can you imagine light rail weaving through all that??? I know its been said before but i really believe its gonna be a mess once its done. I think what will happen is that frequent accidents will occur between MAX and the buses forcing trimet to shut the car lane, thus pissing off the business community. I hate to be negative but trimet needs to fix it or stop it

[PacificNW]

I tend to agree but I want to ask: Are there any transit design experts on this forum who are contributing to this discussion or are we all observers? Has anyone discussed their feelings/ideas with Trimet? Any response?

[pdxman]

I haven't, though maybe i should. I just don't think what i say would matter to them--i think i'd get a response like "we understand your concerns, but we feel that any problems that could arise have been thought out and alleviated." They sure make it look peachy in the video simulation but i don't know...i guess they know something we dont

[PacificNW]

Tks, pdxman.... :)

[mcbaby]

i think someone mentioned in an earlier thread regarding the car lane that it wouldn't stretch the entire length of the mall but just be drop off lanes every 4 blocks. correct me if i'm wrong.

[Dougall5505]

you're wrong

[Dougall5505]

these are from a while ago i just forgot to post them. still kinda cool
take a good luck because this is the last time you will ever see a graffiti-less bus shelter
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l177/dougall5505/DSC02922.jpg?t=1168475310

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l177/dougall5505/DSC02923.jpg?t=1168475321

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l177/dougall5505/DSC02924.jpg?t=1168475331

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l177/dougall5505/DSC02925.jpg?t=1168475342

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l177/dougall5505/DSC02927.jpg?t=1168475353

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l177/dougall5505/DSC02929.jpg?t=1168475366

[MarkDaMan]

I gotta wonder...What was the guy staring at Dougall thinking when this dude starting snaping pictures of him lowering a stop onto the sidewalk?
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l177/dougall5505/DSC02924.jpg?t=1168475331

[MarkDaMan]

Come Sunday, the bus stops here
Bus changes - TriMet's two-year transit mall stop swap starts this weekend. Riders, check your schedules
Thursday, January 11, 2007
JAMES MAYER
The Oregonian

While most of Portland sleeps, a No. 33 (McLoughlin) bus will pull in at Southwest Fourth Avenue and Salmon Street at 5:15 a.m. Sunday, launching a traffic shift that will transform how downtown Portland works for the next two years.

If the relocation of buses off the transit mall is news to anyone, it's not for lack of trying.

TriMet has spent $70,000 to alert bus riders, businesses and the rest of the city about the changes. The agency has distributed information on buses, at shelters, in a special newspaper advertising section, at news conferences -- it has even given away refrigerator magnets featuring the project's Web site, www.portlandmall.org.

But there's bound to be confusion, if not outright chaos, when the buses finally move from Fifth and Sixth avenues to make way for light-rail construction. Most routes will be relocated to Third and Fourth avenues. A few westside routes will move to Southwest Jefferson and Columbia streets. And the No. 14 (Hawthorne) bus will move to Southwest Second Avenue.

TriMet is taking advantage of the calendar to ease the change. Sunday is the system's slowest day of the week, and Monday is the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday. Buses will run on a holiday schedule Monday when ridership is expected to be about 75 percent of a normal weekday. That gives TriMet two days to practice before handling a full-blown commute Tuesday.

To help navigate all this, we offer some answers to common questions:

Why are they doing this?

The buses are being relocated so light-rail tracks can be installed on Fifth and Sixth avenues from Union Station to Portland State University. The $557 million project will also give the mall a face-lift and expand MAX to Clackamas Town Center along Interstate 205.

But why are they really doing this?

Downtown retailers have long sought to bring cars back and to spruce up the deteriorating, uninviting transit mall. Combining these business community wishes with light-rail expansion produced a politically viable project.

How long will it take?

Buses are expected to return to the mall in spring 2009, and the new MAX green line is scheduled to open in September 2009.

How can I find out where my bus stop will be?

The TriMet Web site, www.trimet.org, has new schedules for all bus lines, including the new downtown stops. Riders can also use Trip Planner by entering a date on or after Jan. 14. Information is also available by telephone, 503-238-RIDE.

What happens on the mall during construction?

All businesses and sidewalks will remain open. The project will be built in three- to four-block segments at three locations on the mall, each taking about eight weeks. The rest of the mall will be open to traffic and parking.

Will parking be removed on Third and Fourth?

Yes, some parking has been removed to make space available for bus stops. But officials say adding 200 parking spaces on the mall will compensate for lost spaces.

Will the downtown changes affect the rest of the schedules?

Yes. Every route that goes through downtown will see minor schedule changes to allow for longer travel times through downtown.

How much longer?

TriMet says tests showed the changes will add no more than a minute or two to most schedules. Although traffic will slow the buses, other factors will speed up travel times. Buses making the loop from the east side will travel a shorter distance, and buses will stop every third or fourth block instead of every other block as they do now.

Is it really that simple?

No. Tri-Met worries about unpredictability. Traffic flow on the bus mall is highly predictable, but mingling buses with general vehicle traffic on Third and Fourth introduces the potential for accidents, stalls and other traffic jam headaches that can play havoc with the schedules.

What about Southwest Naito Parkway?

This major north-south street will reopen by this weekend. Traffic models show that the traffic moving back to Naito will eventually equal the bus traffic added to Third and Fourth.

What about C-Tran?

The C-Tran buses will also relocate to Third and Fourth avenues. Visit www.c-tran.com for more information. TriMet says C-Tran will not move back to the mall when it reopens.

Are there bus routes that don't change?

Yes, crosstown routes such as the No. 72 (Killingsworth/82nd Ave.) that don't go downtown will remain the same. There will also be no changes to buses such as the No. 15 (Belmont) that cross the mall but don't travel on it.

James Mayer: 503-294-4109; jimmayer@news.oregonian.com
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1168487702108580.xml&coll=7

[Dougall5505]

Buses, riders shift smoothly with new routes downtown
Two-year project - TriMet guides people on the old mall and by new stops after early glitches

Monday, January 15, 2007
JAMES MAYER
As the No. 12-Barbur bus approached the city's core Sunday morning, the driver announced, "Downtown routes change to Fourth Avenue" in the same routine way he had called out all the other stops.

None of the two dozen or so passengers, dressed warmly against the sub-freezing temperatures outside, seemed at all startled. Not one looked up from his newspaper with that suddenly lost look.

"That's the way we wanted it," said Mary Fetsch, TriMet spokeswoman.
Buses came off the transit mall early Sunday to make way for a two-year project that will extend light rail on the mall from Union Station to Portland State University. Most bus routes moved to Third and Fourth avenues. A few moved to Jefferson and Columbia streets. And a scattering of other changes happened, too.

TriMet field supervisors patrolled the old mall and the new stops to help folks, but they found few problems.

"No one is confused," Fetsch said. "Everyone is at the right place."

But change can be disorienting, even if you know what to expect.

Debbie Smith got off the No. 12 at Main Street, and she seemed a bit confused at first.

Smith needed to transfer to the No. 14-Hawthorne bus to get to her bartending job at the Jolly Roger Restaurant. After a second or two of thought, she remembered: Hawthorne is the oddball route that stops on Southwest Second Avenue.

Looking at the route map attached to the bus stop, Smith said she thought TriMet made the whole thing more complicated than it needs to be.
"Why didn't they just say it begins Sunday, and the stops are all at the same cross streets, just moved two blocks closer to the river?"

It's not quite that simple.

Not all the buses moved to Third and Fourth, and the buses now stop every three or four blocks, not every other block as they generally did on the mall.

The first day seemed to get off to a mostly smooth start, Fetsch said.

But she cited a couple of early glitches. The left turn signal from West Burnside Street to Southwest Third Avenue wasn't working for the first couple of buses that came though; the city quickly fixed it.

And two bus route numbers, the 8 and the 68, were left off new bus stop signs on Broadway. Workers wrote in the numbers.

On Fifth and Sixth avenues, the construction equipment sat idle for the weekend. The familiar functional brown bus shelters had that abandoned look, waiting to be torn down. The information screens were dark. Big yellow signs reading "BUS STOP CLOSED" were taped to the glass.

But with the departure of the buses, crews removed the "bus only" paint from the pavement, and cars came back to blocks of Fifth and Sixth where they had been banned.

TriMet deliberately chose this day for the launch, with light Sunday traffic downtown and the lowest passenger loads of the week. Today, buses will be running a limited schedule due to the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday.

The first full test will come Tuesday, when the regular 60,000 riders board the buses for the morning commute.

TriMet will track buses this week to gauge the success of its new routes, Fetsch said. Though she doesn't anticipate any changes, she said "tweaks" may be made in the frequency of arrivals or timing of traffic signals to keep traffic and riders moving.

"What we're going to watch, especially this next week, is the rush hour," Fetsch said.

Mike Rogoway of The Oregonian staff contributed to this report. James Mayer: 503-294-4109; jimmayer@news.oregonian.com

[tworivers]

Does anyone know whether or not the old fire station near the west end of the Steel is being demo'd to make room for the rail connection between the bridge and the transit mall? First I heard 'yes', then it was a rumored 'no'. I hope it stays.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7099/1705/400/3rd%20and%20Irving.jpg

[Urbanpdx]

Who is "they"?

[NJD]

In the historic and parkland part of Metro's environmental impact statement there is a detailed overlay and description on how the rails will weave around the old firehouse and the historic signal tower just SE of Union Station, thus preserving both historic structures.
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/06e/623/06e6233a-1da7-4ccf-9b99-4404f234e4d5

[tworivers]

Thanks NJD.

Another thing I've been wondering about down there is the future connection between MAX and the train station. I.E. Why put the stations between Glisan and Hoyt, a full 2 blocks away? Simply a lack of projected riders going to and from the station? Even putting them between Hoyt and Irving would have made the connection seem a lot more convenient, particularly for anyone with heavy bags. Or in inclement weather.

http://www.cgis.ci.portland.or.us/giswrap/servlet/GisWrapServlet?MjIsISp4bBwfCBMcbTVhCQsbAwZmXFJcPDcqLS47LC43JjsyXFJcLys/MjcqJ1wDUgVcODcyOyE0ODc4XFJcTEpcUlxLTlwDV1EtOzI7PSpeVF44LDEzXiUzHw4xGFZcMQwKFhFcUgVcTE5OS14xDAoWEQ1cUlwtCgwbGwoNXANSSEpOUkhOTlIbEAgbEhEOG1ZJSEpNR0lJUEtJS1JJSEpLTEtJUEtJS1JIRkhKSEZQSk5LUkhGS0xIRlBKTktXUgUuERcQClZJSEpKSE9JUEtJS1JIRktGSEZQSk5LVwNSBS0KBxIbOR8SEhsMBy0HExwRElZcOTctLzJQDQoHEhtcUlwzHwwVGwxeLQcTHBESDVxSXDobGB8LEgpcUlwtGxIbHQoXERBcVwNXI0U=

[bvpcvm]

what's really annoying is that the train is going to go along irving... but the station is two blocks south.

(the black dots are bus stops)

http://www.portlandmall.org/images/mallmap2009service.gif

[tworivers]

what's really annoying is that the train is going to go along irving... but the station is two blocks south.

Exactly. I don't get it. Seems like the black dots should be MAX stations.

[zilfondel]

Why doesn't it make sense? it makes perfect sense: MAX trains are 200' long; you can't place 2 of them only 50 feet from each other! Not to mention that the MAX train can't bulldoze a path straight through the Greyhound station, nor would you want MAX stations closer than every 4 blocks.

I just hope they will build the dedicated MAX steel bridge ramps to allow them to bypass traffic.

[bvpcvm]

umm... it doesn't make sense because they have 200' worth of space directly in front of the train station on the north edge of the greyhound station. maybe you mean it doesn't make sense because trains just circling the mall would have two stops close to each other..? seems like at that end it wouldn't matter anyway; who's going to get on at 6th and burnside going north, just to get off at 5th and davis (for example)? my point is that very few passengers would be inconvenienced by stops so close together.

[bvpcvm]

I just hope they will build the dedicated MAX steel bridge ramps to allow them to bypass traffic.

is that still a possibility? i thought the zig-zagging route was a done deal.

[tworivers]

Why doesn't it make sense? it makes perfect sense: MAX trains are 200' long; you can't place 2 of them only 50 feet from each other! Not to mention that the MAX train can't bulldoze a path straight through the Greyhound station, nor would you want MAX stations closer than every 4 blocks.

zillfondel, your own post doesn't make much sense to me. Who said anything about putting two 200' trains within 50 feet of each other? And stations for trains heading in opposite directions can't be closer than 4 blocks?! Looking at the map again, I'd at least maintain that the northbound trains should stop a block closer to Union Station. There wouldn't be enough room as currently configured for a southbound station between Hoyt and Irving. I recognize that the plans are in stone; I was just looking for non-speculative information as to the thinking behind station placement.

[zilfondel]

^^^ true, I must have looked at the map wrong.

I think the point of the stations is that they are all evenly spaced on opposite sides of the block to avoid confusing people who haven't studied the maps prior to boarding the trains. Making it intuitive, y'know.

[tworivers]

Making it intuitive, y'know

Definitely, but getting off at "Union Station" (after, say, riding in from Milwaukie in 10 years) and then watching the train you were on glide off past the station two rainy blocks in front of you seems even less intuitive.

[zilfondel]

Except MAX stations are full-block, and the next block is entirely a turn. There would be no place for it to stop, because it would no longer be on a straightaway.

[pdxstreetcar]

as of august 2006 when they had the open house about the Mall construction, the route was going come off the glisan ramp then make a 90 degree turn north on 3rd (going around the fire house which would stay) then run along the rr row to union station/greyhound. the signal tower was also going to stay and be used for switching/controling MAX trains. not sure if anything has changed since then.

i think the max stop locations have a lot to do with existing curb cuts, i know theres a few bus entrances to the greyhound station on 5th between glisan and irving

[NJD]

not that great, but here is a close up of the turns... not much room for a platform...
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/53c/89b/53c89bc6-dd0d-4d6c-83b8-b4d42e65d138

[bvpcvm]

and it probably has to swing out into the left lane before the turn onto irving, which means you can't have a station in the block preceding the turn either... hmm. but i think tworivers' point about getting off the train in the rain with two more blocks to walk and watching it pass you - while heading toward the station. well, maybe when the put max underground they'll fix this issue.

[pdxman]

:brickwall: why won't they tunnel it now!!!

[robbobpdx]

:brickwall: why won't they tunnel it now!!!

That burns my butt too. I've always wished MAX was underground in downtown. Now it will be decades before that happens :hell:

[pdxman]

:previous: and the longer they wait the more it will cost

[robbobpdx]

:previous: EXACTLY ! Just like moving the Eastbank freeway off the riverfront. 10-15 years ago when it was "voted down" by City Council, that also set us back decades and billions more when/if it eventually gets done. :koko:

[Urbanpdx]

his week TriMet began construction on its next light-rail project which will shut down the Portland transit mall for two years while tracks are laid from Union Station to Portland State University. This is viewed as a great leap forward by government planners, but it’s a step backwards for the rest of us.

The current transit mall is highly productive, moving a lot of bus passengers in a small amount of space. When rail construction is finished, the mall will actually have lower passenger throughput then it has today, because light-rail is a low-speed, low-capacity system.

The mall will also be much more dangerous. TriMet bus drivers have warned public officials that mixing rail, buses, cars and bicyclists in tight quarters will lead to fatalities, especially since the rail cars will weave back and forth in a serpentine pattern.

TriMet will be spending more than $200 million for this project, despite the fact that rail is rapidly losing market share. According to a recent employer survey, light-rail’s share of downtown commute trips dropped by 29% over the past 5 years, despite the addition of two new rail lines during that period.

In the classic tradition of central planners, TriMet is taking our money in order to give us more of what we don’t want. Only a government monopoly could be this wasteful.

http://www.cascadepolicy.org/?p=314

[MarkDaMan]

oh urbanpdx...have you not learn anything? :no: Posting special interest CPI propaganda doesn't belong on this board. If you'd posted an article from a 'non-partisan' source, such as the Oregonian, and than followed up with comments...that would be joining the discussion...but your posting first of an O'Toole response on one thread, and now a CPI fluff piece proves, at least to me, your intention is not to be a participant here, but an instigator. Remember one of the forum rules is:

• No anti-social behavior, trolling, spamming, etc.

Leave the CPI and O'Toole pieces for your anti-planner site and surprise us with some in-depth responses to discussions taking place here.

[Urbanpdx]

the Oregonian is non-partisan? Please...

[MarkDaMan]

^the Oregonian reflects the demographics of the people that live in their service territory. It wouldn't make sense to have a chummy with Bush, anti-smart growth daily in a town that feels completely opposite. The Oregonian doesn't interject opinion into their reporting, they do however report more often than most daily papers about developments being built in a metro area that has formed several layers of government just to deal with growth.

The CPI however is an avowed anti-government, anti-planned growth, libertarian, lobbying group. Posting their 'analysis' and rants on a special interest page, that has several daily users who track developments here as a hobby, is inappropriate.

[pdxman]

Its definitely more non-partisan than CPI...and why do you keep posting here urbanpdx?

[Dougall5505]

some pictures I found on flickr
http://flickr.com/photos/dieselboi/
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/369588317_7e285e27f9.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/369588354_476cead5f3.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/369588420_58bbcc14c9.jpg?v=0

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they should restore one of these and put it in tom macall park and put a plaque or something on it for a little history lesson
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[65MAX]

I imagine these shelters are going to pop up all over town. They definitely won't be heading to the landfill, that would be sacrilege.

[pdxman]

I always thought that if they were to subway MAX thru DT, those shelters would be the best entrances to the tunnel. They should keep them just for that in case they ever do.

[65MAX]

I always thought that if they were to subway MAX thru DT, those shelters would be the best entrances to the tunnel. They should keep them just for that in case they ever do.

You mean "when" they build it, not if.

[westsider]

Thinkin' positive?

[pdxman]

I hope it happens too...and to think i'll probably be in my 40's and have kids before they tunnel it. very sad :(

[65MAX]

Thinkin' positive?

Positively.

There's really no other way to increase capacity through DT. This second surface alignment is just delaying the inevitable. It does very little to increase capacity since all 4 lines will still be crossing the same substandard bridge, they're still stopping at traffic lights and they're still limited to 2-car trains.

Trimet says they can handle 30 trains per hour each way on the Steel Bridge. We should reach that number in less than 10 years.

I predict they start serious planning for a subway before then. In fact, maybe they already are, they just want to get the mall rebuilt first. :yes:

[Drmyeyes]

Where's the money 65max? Portland isn't Manhattan or NYC in general. Would this relatively little city ever be able to make a strong enough argument for a subway to get the money? Seems like people like to reference Spain and it's underground city streets (don't they have a subway too?) but the comparison never seems to be quite convincing.

Even big sister Seattle can't pull together the money to get rid of their scar of a viaduct let alone mount a big subway project, which they could use in the worst way. A subway for Portland sounds like a nice dream, but given the circumstances, probably not much more unless the city suddenly grows into a much larger economic dynamo than it is.

[pdxman]

Doesn't pittsburgh have a subway?

[mcbaby]

Even big sister Seattle can't pull together the money to get rid of their scar of a viaduct let alone mount a big subway project

did you know that portland is 20 years older than seattle? that would make her our big "little sister".

[alexjon]

Cindy, Cindy, CINDY!!

Anyway, if you want to get things done, sometimes you gotta churn the waters yourself. Get together a grassroots campaign, do your own studies, do your own little envisioning, call businesses, look at options, and get the public aware.

The Hawthorne Screechcar website is a good example of this sorta thing as far as starts go. Like, I dunno, give the project a good name, get people to design dream stations, etc. underpdx.net or belowpdx.com, something like that. Something easy.

Then tell the portland merc and willy week about it, get their reporters to look at your community notions, and go with it. Give it clout and don't stop if you really want it.

[Wright Concept]

Where's the money 65max? Portland isn't Manhattan or NYC in general. Would this relatively little city ever be able to make a strong enough argument for a subway to get the money? Seems like people like to reference Spain and it's underground city streets (don't they have a subway too?) but the comparison never seems to be quite convincing.

Even big sister Seattle can't pull together the money to get rid of their scar of a viaduct let alone mount a big subway project, which they could use in the worst way. A subway for Portland sounds like a nice dream, but given the circumstances, probably not much more unless the city suddenly grows into a much larger economic dynamo than it is.

This is coming from an outsider, but given Portland's record on being able to get funding for it's projects through very creative ways I think it will get done within the next 15 years. Maybe they can float a city bond that can be repaid through Parking fees or bed/airport taxes in a 20 year period. Or have the South Yellow Line route to Milwaukie be built by using only local funds that can be used as state and federal match for the Downtown Subway. Or even perform a study to extend platform lengths to 3 or 4 cars now which would make a Downtown subway all the more neccessary for the money to fund the study because it's more than just an isolated subway it will increase capacity on the entire system by 100% with just this one move.

One of the advantages Portland can make is that they are adding all of these lines to the core of Downtown by 2009 there will be even more of a need once the Green Line is in play and the Steel Bridge will max out of capacity in 3 years and they can't add any more service without putting one set of lines underground (Blue + Red) or (Yellow + Green)

[pdxstreetcar]

AORTA has been pushing for the subway for years, in fact they were pushing for it when the original Banfield MAX line was being planned.

Seattle's downtown transit tunnel opened in 1990 anticipating the now under construction light rail line. If it weren't for the faulty insulated tracks in the tunnel this would have been a model of forward thinking. Subway tunnels only get more expensive and complex to build.

Ideally Portland now should have followed Seattle's lead and built a subway from Union Station down either 5th or 6th to City Hall then west on Jefferson to Goose Hollow (connect to existing line). The short PSU extension could be built with this initial subway line or with the Milwaukie line. For now the trains could continue using the Steel Bridge then enter the tunnel by Union Station to go through downtown. Eventually the subway could be extended under the Willamette River and Rose/Lloyd Districts and MAX service on the Steel Bridge discontinued.

[alexjon]

The possibilities are endless... obviously the smart choice would be to bury the red/blue because there is no way in flying blue and red hell that they'd keep the transit mall totally car-accessible and adding two nice lanes to the mix in the middle of the CBD would be pretty sweet.

I dunno, I say we should all pool resources and start making waves.

[65MAX]

Where's the money 65max? Portland isn't Manhattan or NYC in general. Would this relatively little city ever be able to make a strong enough argument for a subway to get the money? Seems like people like to reference Spain and it's underground city streets (don't they have a subway too?) but the comparison never seems to be quite convincing.

Even big sister Seattle can't pull together the money to get rid of their scar of a viaduct let alone mount a big subway project, which they could use in the worst way. A subway for Portland sounds like a nice dream, but given the circumstances, probably not much more unless the city suddenly grows into a much larger economic dynamo than it is.

You have to have a plan in place before you can raise the money for it. If Trimet and Metro and Portland make this a priority (which is looking more and more likely, even Hansen has started mentioning it recently), there's any number of ways that this could be financed. Remember, we now have major allies in the US Congress who are suddenly in powerful positions and can pull many (purse) strings. DeFazio, Blumenauer, Wyden. I'd say now is the perfect time to capitalize on their influence. Bottom line, if it's a priority, it'll get built.

Comparing us to NYC is a red herring argument. Most cities that now have subways (including NYC, Chicago, Philly) were smaller than Portland is now when they got their first tunnels. And yes, Pittsburgh (now smaller than PDX) has a subway, and is currently extending it in two places.

Also, comparing the burying of a six-lane freeway with 10' shoulders (for emergency stops) in each direction, a minimum 100' ROW, to two 14' wide subway tubes, well that's just a tad bit disingenuous. Like comparing a watermelon to a grape.

[mcbaby]

ditto

[Urbanpdx]

Also, comparing the burying of a six-lane freeway with 10' shoulders (for emergency stops) in each direction, a minimum 100' ROW, to two 14' wide subway tubes, well that's just a tad bit disingenuous. Like comparing a watermelon to a grape.

Except for light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway.

[Drmyeyes]

65MAX, certainly a plan is important, and at any rate, a subway is the logical thing to plan for as a means of addressing congestion and livability issues, especially in a downtown. It's true that in congress, we now have some new strength. There's always a hope. I'm admittedly weak on figures and numbers, so I don't really have an idea about subway construction costs and financing, except that (and I seem to remember this slightly from reading here) I seem to have the impression that it is very expensive, more expensive than most other forms of ground mas transit.

NYC, Chicago, Pittsburgh may have been smaller cities than Portland when their subways were built, but I expect that as economic forces, they were comparatively far greater for that era relative to their size. That fact is how I would imagine they were able to make the strong argument they did for subway construction. I have no idea about Philly.

It's not neccessarily the physical size of a downtown that might decide or limit the construction of something like a subway, it's the economic activity that goes on there, what it's relevance to the economic health of a region is, and whether it's thought that congestion sufficiently hinders its economic potential to the extent that something like the cost of a subway would be justified. Do we have such a situation in Portland?

[65MAX]

Yes, we are very close to that situation now. Especially with the influx of new residents into the central core. The economic importance of DT to the rest of the region is immense, and necessity will dictate that eventually, the regional rail system will HAVE to go underground to maintain accessibility to and through DT. The surface streets and blocks are simply too small for them to stay at grade. This is a key difference here in PDX that other cities (except maybe Boston) don't have, small blocks and narrow streets. Also, congestion on the surface streets, especially pedestrians, make it a safety issue as well.

[Wright Concept]

I wonder how much it would cost for Portland to have a Double decker LRV? They have these kind of trams/LRV's in Egypt and Hong Kong, I mean until the inevitable subway can be built.

Or they might have to do something bizarre like close off streets at stations to create a grade separation without a tunnel. But that just strains the street capacity even more.

[Urbanpdx]

With the amount we have spent on MAX we could have had enough to double deck over 67 lane miles of freeway.

[pdxman]

haha can you imagine...kidding aside i would like to see some improvements in the highways around here. Or they could try to repave the roads in the portland area. I borrowed a car yesterday to run some errands, and wow, DT portland roads are in SERIOUS disrepair. Potholes everywhere :( i thought it was just crappy suspension on the buses--i thought wrong.

[MarkDaMan]

^duh, downtown is torn up...If you aren't driving on roads with sewer/road/transit construction, they aren't any worse than anywhere else.

[pdxman]

Parts of DT are torn up, not all of it. But, by the feel of it it certainly seems like the lot of it IS. I'm not dumb, i realize 5th and 6th are torn up but i'm not referring to those streets when i talk about streets needing to be repaved. 23rd is horrible, plenty of DT streets other than 5th and 6th are in need of tlc, naito parkway south of DT is bad, and most of the streets in the neighborhood i live in are cracked and potholed as well. And justifying crappy roads in DT by saying they're like that everywhere else is ridiculous. I even recall reading a year or two ago that the city of portland was somewhere around 800 miles(don't know the exact figure) behind in road projects/repairs. I know we all love light rail and streetcar, but that doesn't mean we forget about the roads. Buses ride them too! :)

[bvpcvm]

Parts of DT are torn up, not all of it. But, by the feel of it it certainly seems like the lot of it IS. I'm not dumb, i realize 5th and 6th are torn up but i'm not referring to those streets when i talk about streets needing to be repaved. 23rd is horrible, plenty of DT streets other than 5th and 6th are in need of tlc, naito parkway south of DT is bad, and most of the streets in the neighborhood i live in are cracked and potholed as well. And justifying crappy roads in DT by saying they're like that everywhere else is ridiculous. I even recall reading a year or two ago that the city of portland was somewhere around 800 miles(don't know the exact figure) behind in road projects/repairs. I know we all love light rail and streetcar, but that doesn't mean we forget about the roads. Buses ride them too! :)

one thing to keep in mind though is that the city isn't just ignoring the condition of the streets; there's a budget and a schedule to get each one fixed. 23rd, for example, is supposed to be re-built either later this year or next year.

[pdxman]

Apologies for ranting...i know most here will disagree with me--i guess we can agree to disagree :) sorry for getting off topic

[alexjon]

Except for light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway.

And?

More freeway isn't going to help me, unless you want my legally blind ass tailgating you.

[bvpcvm]

With the amount we have spent on MAX we could have had enough to double deck over 67 lane miles of freeway.

Awesome! Think of all the neighborhoods we could've torn up! Oh well, maybe someday...

[Drmyeyes]

This is Portland Transit Mall Construction. Why take bait offered by those that loathe mass transit? Instead of this continual grousing on their part, on a thread dedicated to this purpose, let them offer a serious, solid model that at least attempts to prove how their ideas can realistically work. They mostly just like to talk, throw numbers around and dream utopian dreams whose results would be Robert Moses asphalt guts ripping up entire valleys with the hot fetid air of buzzing metal and the gnashing teeth of entrapped drivers.

Rough streets? Just another good reason to ride light rail or street car or bicycles (bicycles aren't the vehicles creating broken roads and potholes...it's busses and trucks, but also cars....studded tires aggravate that situation)

Potholes? I'm joking...but they're kind of traffic calming devices. Anything that keeps traffic from getting any faster than it is on 23rd has got to be a good thing. Somehow inform motorist that if they don't keep it down the city will install those speed bump thingies! Hope that day never comes...we'd be talking about real fun then.

[pdxman]

I'm not saying to expand roads, just to smooth them out...and i would gladly ride light rail more often if it came my way :) hint: build lrt down barbur, not milwaukee! Until then its a bumpy bus ride wherever i need to go

[mcbaby]

Except for light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway.

not this again.

[MarkDaMan]

I know we all love light rail and streetcar, but that doesn't mean we forget about the roads.

TriMet pays for rail, mostly from the feds who pay 60% of most of our heavy transportation projects, and also employee salary taxes. PDOT pays for the roads through mostly gas tax revenue, try not to confuse the two. Portland doesn't compete for money on rail vs. freeway. If you want better roads raise the gas tax, just like the employeer tax was raised to pay for the new light rail extension to Clack.

[Urbanpdx]

And?

More freeway isn't going to help me, unless you want my legally blind ass tailgating you.

No, I don't but for far far far less money we could supply you with a couple of people 24/7 to drive you around in a Rolls Royce.

[Urbanpdx]

Awesome! Think of all the neighborhoods we could've torn up! Oh well, maybe someday...

How, exactly, would double decking the freeways tear up neighborhoods?

[NJD]

I apologize in advance for continuing this asinine rhetoric, but statistics can be deceiving:

67 lane miles of freeway = 11.15 miles of freeway at Metro standard 6 lane wide = double decking the the Banfield, but what about I-5, US 26, I-205, I-405, Ore 217, etc...

light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway Awesome! We don't know how often train headways are or how many vehicles are attatched in this randomly unsupported fact, but if we assume Portland style LRT then that means 1/4 of all those cars in that bogged down, usually overcrowded lane of freeway are not having to find parking spaces, use gasoline, create air and soil and water and noise pollution, and the people get there without traffic headaches or get stuck behind accidents and don't have that pesky road rage I've seen us Oregonians and Washingtonians get.

thanks Urbanpdx for supporting Light Rail!!!

[Urbanpdx]

Just look at the cost of Light rail to Vancouver

Compared to Express Bus-Short, light rail costs $302,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus
Compared to Express Bus-Long, light rail costs $495,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus

It would literally be cheaper to buy a Pearl district condo for each of those light rail riders that would not ride the bus.
Effect of Light Rail on Traffic Congestion

The proposed light rail system is forecasted to increase the capacity across the Columbia by only 7%.

Are new riders attracted to transit by Light Rail?

Compared to Express Bus-Short, rail gives a 31% increase in ridership for $1.2 billion.
Compared to Express Bus-Long, rail gives an 18% increase in ridership for $1.19 billion.
(Spending 37 times the money increases transit ridership by only18%.)

Questions that should have been asked:

How much must we spend on a deluxe bus system to match the ridership of light rail?

How many riders would we get if we spent $1.2 billion on a really good bus system?

For a given amount of money, which option will give the highest transit use?

How accurate are the projections?
(The Eastside light rail was 55% over budget,
the Westside light rail was 394% OVER budget,
tram is now 700% over its original estimate, )

Vancouver Light Rail simply Costs too much and does too little.

[NJD]

here we go again...

only the eastside line was overbudget, and that was one of the first lines built in America.
EDIT: westside MAX was 2.6 times over the early cost analysis done by Metro in 1979, this was due to the addition of a tunnel boring route and 19 years of inflation and high cost technology advances.
EDIT: RED and YELLOW lines were finished under budget and on time!

The Aerial Tram is/was paid for 85% by OHSU, OHSU also caused the majority of the extra costs by building their building where the upper station was supposed to be anchored into bedrock, the rest of the money comes from development in SOWA.

ompared to Express Bus-Short, light rail costs $302,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus
Compared to Express Bus-Long, light rail costs $495,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus
um... right, realistic math doesn't include saying how much it would cost for ONE DAY WORTH OF RIDES when this system would last 100 years!

The proposed light rail system is forecasted to increase the capacity across the Columbia by only 7%.
AWESOME! almost 10% increase in capacity for just adding LRT, wow! I wonder if we would need a new bridge if we simply added LRT, a new bridge to Jantzen Beach to get rid of those traffic stalling I-5 ramps, added additional local bus service, and widening I-5 from the state border through the Rose Quarter to 3 lanes in each direction! (I can't believe I-5 THE west coast freeway bogs down to 2 lanes in each direction at Columbia Blvd. and at the Rose Quarter 1/4 mile from another Interstate interchange! I understand it was all based on 1960's Moses planning, but come on! Fix that before spending 2-6 BILLION on a new bridge for Couv commuters)

[NJD]

Let's stop this urbanpdx.. and get back to news on the Transit Mall Construction.

Question: does anyone know how much it costs to tunnel bore LRT or BART style tubes in ground like Portland's? To cut-and-cover? I'm looking for real numbers on the actual cost of the tunneling, not what goes in it... I'm trying to get actual costs put together for twin tunnels through downtown Portland.