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bwonger06
Jul 2, 2008, 2:55 AM
The office building at 27 floors will be 387' (quoted numerous times in this thread).

36 story condo tower? Probably in the 400' range (maybe somebody has an actual height?)



Office/Hotel tower? How about Jin Mao in Shanghai? :D

Seems to me there's a decent sized one in Vancouver that was built in the last 5 years?

We can all dream right? I went to china a few weeks ago and the Jin Mao tower along with the IFC tower in Hong Kong were highlights. Hey both are successful commercial/hotel buildings, maybe CityScape will learn and thing or two from both.

Sadly to say Phoenix seems like a complete crap hole after visiting cities in China. Everywhere I went was Tower crane heaven!

gymratmanaz
Jul 2, 2008, 3:30 AM
I've been to Chengdu....they joke that the crane is their national bird.

BigBuilder
Jul 2, 2008, 3:40 PM
The second tallest building in the world is being built in Chicago. It's a Condo tower! Cityscape owners need to max out and trust that unique wins over normal.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=434232

2000 Feet 150 Floors

jvbahn
Jul 2, 2008, 4:38 PM
I'm the one living in Europe, kevininlb......

I don't care about the Chase, just would be good to see any kind of density, even if it's blocks of 5-story buildings with shade and street life. That would beat single towers that may not ever be built.

Ridge5280
Jul 2, 2008, 5:07 PM
The Spire, when completed, will actually be the tallest residential tower in the world. This project appeals to a world wide audience of the wealthy elite who are attracted to the iconic nature of the structure and world class city such as Chicago.

Downtown PHX is in it's infancy which magnifies the difficulty of every new development. I agree with you that different and unique is good, but look at the City's previous obsession with spread out development, to finally move up (literally and figuratively) towards high-density urban development is a huge step.

I do question the commitment of some of the development sponsorship in the area. I read on a previous thread that the condo portion had yet to be financed, although I never heard back when approaching them in regards to financing opportunities. That lead me to believe all financing had been secured. I also understand that Hotel Monroe is seeking refinancing, although this is another developer that didn't respond.
These are two attractive projects that could be highly successful if there is full commitment from the developer(s), city, and community.

I believe downtown PHX could be the next great emerging downtown in the US if it's done right.

vertex
Jul 2, 2008, 5:41 PM
Welcome aboard Ridge. Nice 1st post.

Anybody else notice the spate of new forum members posting to Phoenix threads in the last couple of weeks?

gymratmanaz
Jul 2, 2008, 5:48 PM
"spate" ...nice vocab, Vertex!!!!

... and yes, nice new additions.

PhxSprawler
Jul 2, 2008, 6:02 PM
Welcome, Ridge!

Vertex - I have also noticed the spate of newcomers. I have also noticed that they seem to be educated and older than eight.

CANUC
Jul 2, 2008, 6:21 PM
The Spire, when completed, will actually be the tallest residential tower in the world. This project appeals to a world wide audience of the wealthy elite who are attracted to the iconic nature of the structure and world class city such as Chicago.

Downtown PHX is in it's infancy which magnifies the difficulty of every new development. I agree with you that different and unique is good, but look at the City's previous obsession with spread out development, to finally move up (literally and figuratively) towards high-density urban development is a huge step.

I do question the commitment of some of the development sponsorship in the area. I read on a previous thread that the condo portion had yet to be financed, although I never heard back when approaching them in regards to financing opportunities. That lead me to believe all financing had been secured. I also understand that Hotel Monroe is seeking refinancing, although this is another developer that didn't respond.
These are two attractive projects that could be highly successful if there is full commitment from the developer(s), city, and community.

I believe downtown PHX could be the next great emerging downtown in the US if it's done right.

Normally I don’t like posting pessimistic comments but here go’s. First I don’t think that our downtown will ever become a living urban core in the truest sense. By that I mean I don’t see a New York, San Francisco type of living environment evolving in any foreseeable future. At best and probably justifiably the most we will see an emulation of San Diego’s Gas Lamp Quarter or Denver’s LoDo. The reality is that similar to those two cities the “need” to live in a high density, high rise environment just isn’t present. Even in San Diego with a natural boundary sprawl still takes precedent. The lack of natural borders is the very antithesis to real urban development.

The only real motivators for urban infill that I can see will be the amount of tolerance or lack of it the populace has a whole towards commute distances, traffic and cost of fuel. If history shows anything some people are willing to tolerate a whole bunch. If, by some totalitarian decry, all office development where forced into downtown then maybe we would reach some type of balance but with cities fighting cities for a tax base we continue to see ‘power centers’ or office submarkets appearing on the very fringes of sprawl which leads to even more sprawl. The reality is the city will continue to sprawl so long as our natural resources can support it. The only way that I feel our downtown can flourish will be mostly artificial. City officials will need to continue to foster DT projects such as JSED, ASU, light rail etc. and attempt to turn it into a destination spot, the place to be, either through continued subsidies to developers who chose to building in DT or through continued marketing of DT as an alternative to the suburban lifestyle.

The people who will make the change will mostly do so by choice and will need to be mavericks by Phoenix standards. With the downturn in the housing market I don’t think we have a real bearing as to how many of those people there really are or if there are even enough to really change the face of DT.

KEVINphx
Jul 2, 2008, 7:44 PM
We can all dream right? I went to china a few weeks ago and the Jin Mao tower along with the IFC tower in Hong Kong were highlights. Hey both are successful commercial/hotel buildings, maybe CityScape will learn and thing or two from both.

Sadly to say Phoenix seems like a complete crap hole after visiting cities in China. Everywhere I went was Tower crane heaven!

Then move to China

Downtown_resident
Jul 2, 2008, 8:15 PM
Normally I don’t like posting pessimistic comments but here go’s. First I don’t think that our downtown will ever become a living urban core in the truest sense. By that I mean I don’t see a New York, San Francisco type of living environment evolving in any foreseeable future. At best and probably justifiably the most we will see an emulation of San Diego’s Gas Lamp Quarter or Denver’s LoDo. The reality is that similar to those two cities the “need” to live in a high density, high rise environment just isn’t present. Even in San Diego with a natural boundary sprawl still takes precedent. The lack of natural borders is the very antithesis to real urban development.

The only real motivators for urban infill that I can see will be the amount of tolerance or lack of it the populace has a whole towards commute distances, traffic and cost of fuel. If history shows anything some people are willing to tolerate a whole bunch. If, by some totalitarian decry, all office development where forced into downtown then maybe we would reach some type of balance but with cities fighting cities for a tax base we continue to see ‘power centers’ or office submarkets appearing on the very fringes of sprawl which leads to even more sprawl. The reality is the city will continue to sprawl so long as our natural resources can support it. The only way that I feel our downtown can flourish will be mostly artificial. City officials will need to continue to foster DT projects such as JSED, ASU, light rail etc. and attempt to turn it into a destination spot, the place to be, either through continued subsidies to developers who chose to building in DT or through continued marketing of DT as an alternative to the suburban lifestyle.

The people who will make the change will mostly do so by choice and will need to be mavericks by Phoenix standards. With the downturn in the housing market I don’t think we have a real bearing as to how many of those people there really are or if there are even enough to really change the face of DT.

CANUC, no need for the pessimism. The 1990s and this decade have shown that there's a demand for urban living that exists in cities across the country, even in the (now concluded) era of cheap gas. While no one believes that the suburbs will be abandoned in favor of a return to a pre-1950-style built environment, I don't think there's any doubt after the events of the past 15-20 years that most American cities can support healthy downtowns.

Phoenix is no different-- there's a clear interest in urban living here-- it's just way behind other places thanks to decades of mistakes that leveled our relatively meager historic building stock and left us with a downtown that has as many empty lots as it does buildings. But we need to keep it in perspective. I remember coming back to Phoenix after graduating from college in 1998 and thinking that there wasn't one place I'd want to live anywhere in town (and then moving away again for several more years). I never would have believed that in the 10 years since then we'd see the construction of two downtown residential highrises, multiple new and rehabbed midrise condo and apartment buildings and real urban residential complexes like Roosevelt Square and Artisan Village (and not the suburban crap they were still building in the mid-90's like the Met). Also unthinkable at that time were light rail, First Fridays, or all the cool restaurants-- and even a couple bars-- that have sprouted up north of downtown.

Ten years ago I might have agreed with you that Phoenix could never develop a real downtown. But in light of all the things that have happened since, I definitely believe it can happen here, and it already is. The problem is that it just takes a lot of time, and the hole Phoenix dug itself for forty years is pretty enormous.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

Hysonk
Jul 2, 2008, 11:00 PM
The sad thing is if you go to cityscapePHX.com which is the main page and scroll down to the partner sites. Kimpton, Colliers, CDK, Novarre, not one mention Cityscape. These were the developer partners that were to build the condos, hotels, etc. It seems that the only thing going in this phase is the office building and retail. It's a shame. Like Vandercook says, Colliers Center=Arizona Center=Cityscape. I hope I'm wrong. :(

loftlovr
Jul 2, 2008, 11:08 PM
Good post Downtown Resident.
It will just take time. Most Downtown's are experiencing some sort of renaissance right now, across America. Urban is back in style. If we continue at this pace, our Downtown will seem pretty attractive in a decade or so. At first, it only makes sense to the urban pioneers, excited to be a part of the rebirth and to play a role, or else people that work Downtown. And eventually it becomes the pracical or sophisticated, sensible thing to do; to move to a booming Downtown, especially with such high gas prices and in a City with a seemingly limited water supply. It all goes back to the chicken and the egg- we need more people to justify more bars/ nightlife/ retail and Grocery stores and we need these things to lure more people. In time it will work out, as ASU will have what, 15,000 students enrolled by 2012?
We just had a much longer way to go to be a cool City. Most cities had a stock of old warehouses or red brick buildings with potential, and much more dense "Main Street" type of areas than we have in Phoenix. A few years ago we had a shitload of vacant lots and now, maybe 20% have been filled. Imagine what it will be like when 80% are filled?
It is a huge task for City Leaders/ Phil Gordon to fix what took years to destroy. But we're working on it, just like Downtown San Diegans did in the 90's.

HX_Guy
Jul 3, 2008, 1:38 AM
The sad thing is if you go to cityscapePHX.com which is the main page and scroll down to the partner sites. Kimpton, Colliers, CDK, Novarre, not one mention Cityscape. These were the developer partners that were to build the condos, hotels, etc. It seems that the only thing going in this phase is the office building and retail. It's a shame. Like Vandercook says, Colliers Center=Arizona Center=Cityscape. I hope I'm wrong. :(

I'm not sure what you are referring to but I don't remember there ever being a company called "Cityscape".

Cityscape is what the whole project is called...and the partner sites you see listed have been there from the beginning. If anything, CDK should no longer be listed because last I read they pulled out of the project.

AZ KID
Jul 3, 2008, 3:14 AM
I'm not sure what you are referring to but I don't remember there ever being a company called "Cityscape".

Cityscape is what the whole project is called...and the partner sites you see listed have been there from the beginning. If anything, CDK should no longer be listed because last I read they pulled out of the project.

I am pretty sure that MattD was stating that when you visit CDK, Colliers, Kimpton, and Novarre's sites they make no mention of the project Cityscape. I think he knows that cityscape is a project and a company.

HX_Guy
Jul 3, 2008, 3:25 AM
Oh...that makes sense. :D

Going on that...

CDK did have something on their site about Cityscape, but their website (www.cdkpartners.com) is no longer up.

Collier's never had any mention of Cityscape on their site, from the very beginning.

Novare did have something about TWELVE hotels listed on their site and it's no longer there, so that's not good.

RED Development does still have information and it has been updated on a semi-regular basis.

Those are the only companies listed at the bottom, Kimpton was never listed and I'm assuming they are still going forward, but who knows?

HX_Guy
Jul 3, 2008, 10:32 PM
Well shit...this would be a disaster for Cityscape I assume...

"JPMorgan Chase & Co. has placed Wachovia Corp. high on its radar screen for a potential acquisition, CNBC reports, citing insiders with the New York bank. "

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/06/30/daily65.html?jst=b_ln_hl

tempedude
Jul 3, 2008, 10:37 PM
^doubt it....I don't think it would be a disaster at all. dude....its business, please calm down. It only says potential...and who is to say that they wouldn't keep Wachovia as a subsidiary company, and still go ahead with the plans at cityscape.

I have a business degree, and I could go into deep explanation as to why it probably won't happen. I am not a banker though, nor do I work for JPMorgan Chase & Co. or Wachovia. However, the article does give a good example as to why the acquisition probably will not happen:

However, there are roadblocks to a possible acquisition. The deal would bring the combined bank above the federal deposit cap that prevents a bank from controlling more than 10 percent of all U.S. deposits. JPMorgan already has 7 percent of those deposits, and Wachovia has 6 percent, CNBC notes.

Sonoran_Dweller
Jul 3, 2008, 11:15 PM
I would guess that if Chase takes over Wachovia, then the tenant in the CityScape building would become Chase. I don't think they would cancel the project entirely or anything crazy like that. If Chase does take over Wachovia, Chase might just play realtor, and sell the floors that Wachovia had. I'm no real estate or banking expert, but I just don't think it would be a disaster for CityScape.

plinko
Jul 4, 2008, 12:01 AM
^Chase wouldn't be able to 'sell' anything. Wachovia is a cityscape TENANT, not an owner. The tower will likely be finished by the time any sort of acquisition could take place, and at that point Chase would likely have to honor the lease that Wachovia has in place.

I think this (regardless of result) will have a negligible effect on Cityscape...except maybe the naming rights on the office tower.

PHX31
Jul 4, 2008, 2:18 AM
/\ Has Wachovia actually signed a lease at CityScape already? If not, might this play into the decision to sign or not?

tempedude
Jul 4, 2008, 2:35 AM
Usually...a public announcement of intent to occupy space as a lesee (tenant), indicates that a formal contract has been signed.

Wachovia has already done that.

HX_Guy
Jul 4, 2008, 4:05 AM
So then we could assume PF Changs, AJs, Kimpton Hotels, and Squire, Sanders & Dempsey have done the same?

gymratmanaz
Jul 4, 2008, 4:36 AM
Hope so!

ecaz02
Jul 4, 2008, 6:13 AM
Um...not sure if I'm doing this right. I hope I'm posting to the right thread. Tempedude, remember who is writing the article bro. They're trying to sell the story and are often times misinformed. We've heard enough BS hype living down here.

BigBuilder
Jul 4, 2008, 10:50 PM
There is a good chance Nashville will get a roughly 1000 foot 70 story hotel-condo project launched soon. (Signature Tower)

http://www.signaturetowernashville.com/salescenter.php

Over 25% of the 400 condo units have already sold!

Why would Cityscape delay a 40 story tower in a much larger/better market?
Nashville: 1,500,000 people in metro area. Phoenix: 4,000,000+ in metro area.

PHX NATIVE 929
Jul 4, 2008, 10:58 PM
There is a good chance Nashville will get a roughly 1000 foot foot 70 story hotel-condo project launched soon. (Signature Tower)

http://www.signaturetowernashville.com/salescenter.php

Over 25% of the 400 condo units have already sold!

Why would Cityscape delay a 40 story tower in a much larger/better market?
Nasville: 1,500,000 people in metro area. Phoenix: 4,000,000+ in metro area.

Demand, demand, demand.

BigBuilder
Jul 5, 2008, 6:03 AM
Condos are still selling and gas prices will just make urban living even more in demand. The tower will finish at a perfect time. They should get started now.

..and even Des Moines, Iowa: (with a Metro Area of only 450,000 in the early 90's) built a 630 foot office tower.

Loveithigh
Jul 7, 2008, 2:49 PM
I'm just shaking my head. After all this speculation and various different reports from various sources, in this July/August issue of AZ RE Arizona Commercial Real Estate Magazine shows that Cityscape will feature in the first phase, to be completed in December 2009, 200,000 SF of retail and restaurant space, 600,000 SF Class A office space and 1250 parking spaces. Now, I know I am not reporting anything new as far as Phase I goes, but the magazine features a new tallest for Phoenix - the original plan of a 44 story building to feature 165 condos, a 250 room Kimpton Hotel Palomar, and the redevelopment of Patriots Park to be completed in 2010. I am convinced that RED Development has no idea what they are going to build. Last report I read was that they chopped the condo/hotel tower down to 30 stories and there was speculation that even that was being scraped. The article does not mention if Wachovia will be the tenant in the 600,000sf phase I tower. Why is this project surrounded in such speculation and seemingly secrecy. Must be to keep guys like me crazy.:koko: :shrug:

Ridge5280
Jul 7, 2008, 4:13 PM
Normally I don’t like posting pessimistic comments but here go’s. First I don’t think that our downtown will ever become a living urban core in the truest sense. By that I mean I don’t see a New York, San Francisco type of living environment evolving in any foreseeable future. At best and probably justifiably the most we will see an emulation of San Diego’s Gas Lamp Quarter or Denver’s LoDo. The reality is that similar to those two cities the “need” to live in a high density, high rise environment just isn’t present. Even in San Diego with a natural boundary sprawl still takes precedent. The lack of natural borders is the very antithesis to real urban development.

The only real motivators for urban infill that I can see will be the amount of tolerance or lack of it the populace has a whole towards commute distances, traffic and cost of fuel. If history shows anything some people are willing to tolerate a whole bunch. If, by some totalitarian decry, all office development where forced into downtown then maybe we would reach some type of balance but with cities fighting cities for a tax base we continue to see ‘power centers’ or office submarkets appearing on the very fringes of sprawl which leads to even more sprawl. The reality is the city will continue to sprawl so long as our natural resources can support it. The only way that I feel our downtown can flourish will be mostly artificial. City officials will need to continue to foster DT projects such as JSED, ASU, light rail etc. and attempt to turn it into a destination spot, the place to be, either through continued subsidies to developers who chose to building in DT or through continued marketing of DT as an alternative to the suburban lifestyle.

The people who will make the change will mostly do so by choice and will need to be mavericks by Phoenix standards. With the downturn in the housing market I don’t think we have a real bearing as to how many of those people there really are or if there are even enough to really change the face of DT.

When I referred to Phoenix as the next great emerging city, I was in no way comparing it to New York, San Francisco or Chicago.

In the late 80's and early 90's nobody in Denver or Colorado for that matter could have foreseen the magnificent turn around in downtown Denver (besides a few visionaries that is, such as current Mayer John Hickenlooper). Real estate was being auctioned off for cents on the dollar and urban blight was rampant. Lower downtown was an area of Denver you simply did not go near. The turnaround really began in the mid/late-90's with the development of Coors Field and the redevelopment of the Denver Pavilions at the 16th Street Mall. Now lower downtown Denver is a vibrant area with upscale living and entertainment. The turnaround occurred at a fast pace due to the supply of historic buildings that existed because the area was once a thriving industrial center. More recently Denver has added infrastructure such as a regional light rail system and there are plans for a significant expansion of this which will only lead to more infill development as the many corner parking lots are acquired for development.

In my mind, downtown Phoenix is poised for its emergence because of the infrastructure that exists (and expanding) in terms of public transit and attractions such as Chase Field, US Airways Center, Convention Center, and the ASU expansion. Downtown PHX does lack the number of existing buildings that Denver has, which just means that more ground up development will need to occur leading to an extended timeline (less retro-fitting of buildings). However, I view this as simply an opportunity of PHX to be unique and develop its own character.

In 10 years Phoenix will be the new model for downtown resurgence and possibly a milestone for the US marking the end of sprawl development!

kevininlb
Jul 7, 2008, 4:52 PM
I have hope, too. :previous:

I lived in L.A. for 15 years and for most of that time, no surprise, you could walk downtown any weekend and literally be the only person there.

Now, downtown L.A. isn't exactly bustling compared to placed like New York and Chicago, but who gives an f? It's still great and exciting and totally, completely transformed in only a few years' time.

There's absolutely no reason the same can't happen in Phoenix.

AZ KID
Jul 7, 2008, 5:52 PM
Does anyone have an up to date pic of this site?

HooverDam
Jul 7, 2008, 6:16 PM
Does anyone have an up to date pic of this site?

On my walk yesterday I snapped a picture, though its not great:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8999/dsc0514tg9.jpg

I wasn't up high enough (I normally crawl up on the benches or trash cans nearby to take a photo over the fence, but they all seem to have been removed) to get a very good shot. But anyway, its still just a gigantic hole with concrete around it, nothing exciting to report. If you fell in it, it would hurt.

AZ KID
Jul 7, 2008, 8:16 PM
Thanks HooverDam

BigBuilder
Jul 8, 2008, 3:41 AM
I'm just shaking my head. After all this speculation and various different reports from various sources, in this July/August issue of AZ RE Arizona Commercial Real Estate Magazine shows that Cityscape will feature in the first phase, to be completed in December 2009, 200,000 SF of retail and restaurant space, 600,000 SF Class A office space and 1250 parking spaces. Now, I know I am not reporting anything new as far as Phase I goes, but the magazine features a new tallest for Phoenix - the original plan of a 44 story building to feature 165 condos, a 250 room Kimpton Hotel Palomar, and the redevelopment of Patriots Park to be completed in 2010. I am convinced that RED Development has no idea what they are going to build. Last report I read was that they chopped the condo/hotel tower down to 30 stories and there was speculation that even that was being scraped. The article does not mention if Wachovia will be the tenant in the 600,000sf phase I tower. Why is this project surrounded in such speculation and seemingly secrecy. Must be to keep guys like me crazy.:koko: :shrug:

Well, I trust that source more than this board. So it looks like Phoenix will have a new tallest!

HX_Guy
Jul 8, 2008, 4:40 AM
Anyone been by the site very recently and looked inside the hole? Are they getting close to finishing the excavation?

According to the FAA permit, the tower crane is supposed to go in on 07/15/08, which is in only one week. I don't know if they are always this precise, but this is how it unfolded for Central Park East.

FAA word schedule: 12/15/2007 to 10/01/2008

Site on 12/12/2007:

http://nitnelav.com/DowntownDec1207/5.jpg

Site on 12/15/2007:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/CPECrane.jpg

PHX_PD
Jul 8, 2008, 10:45 AM
Here are some pics from tonight. I didn't see a foundation for a crane, but it looks like there's some sort of slab down there.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1038.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1032.jpg

gymratmanaz
Jul 8, 2008, 1:35 PM
And there appears to be a vertical anchor attached to the north wall right in line with the slab.

HX_Guy
Jul 8, 2008, 5:27 PM
Does the location of the slab corospond with the FAA map of where the tower crane will be positioned? It's a bit hard to tell from the picture, but it does seem to be in the center (north/south) and slightly east...no?

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecranefaa2.jpg

gymratmanaz
Jul 8, 2008, 7:20 PM
The FAA map makes more sense if the crane is to operate for both towers....

PHX_PD
Jul 9, 2008, 3:08 AM
Does the location of the slab corospond with the FAA map of where the tower crane will be positioned? It's a bit hard to tell from the picture, but it does seem to be in the center (north/south) and slightly east...no?

http://nitnelav.com/cityscapecranefaa2.jpg

Here, this picture gives you little better perspective. It seems to correspond pretty closely with the FAA map.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1029.jpg

Sonoran_Dweller
Jul 9, 2008, 3:51 AM
Here are some pics from tonight. I didn't see a foundation for a crane, but it looks like there's some sort of slab down there.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1038.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1032.jpg

Well, even if we don't know exactly what is happening or where it's going, we at least know that something is happening. Thats always nice to know.

PHX_PD
Jul 9, 2008, 8:42 AM
Since last night they have begun putting up some forms over the slab:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1074.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1068.jpg

gymratmanaz
Jul 9, 2008, 12:48 PM
They have also added some big pipes along the east wall now. They look like maybe electrical and some water????

HX_Guy
Jul 9, 2008, 3:24 PM
Hmm...could the forms be for the crane foundation? I can't think what else it could be...it's way too early for an elevator core or anything like that.

gymratmanaz
Jul 9, 2008, 3:35 PM
it is in the correct crane position!!!!!!!! me thinks we have crane foundation!

tempedude
Jul 9, 2008, 3:43 PM
I hope...bring on the crane. :)

Hysonk
Jul 9, 2008, 6:12 PM
So for a while I was thinking that both towers were to be built in the center portion of Cityscape, but that's not the case. The Wachovia building goes up first and then, maybe in a future phase, the second tower goes up. Here's a paragraph from Hunt Contruction's website:

Sited on three blocks at the core of downtown Phoenix, the middle block of CityScape will include a 600,000-square-foot Class A office tower, retail space, and underground parking. Later phases of the project will include a mixed-use tower which will include residential condominiums and Hotel Palomor.

Bummer.

HX_Guy
Jul 9, 2008, 6:15 PM
That's been true all along, though the hotel/condo tower was supposed to only be behind by about 6 months, so at one point during construction...both towers would be rising at the same time...just that one would be 6 months ahead of the other.

We'll see.

Hysonk
Jul 9, 2008, 6:32 PM
That's been true all along, though the hotel/condo tower was supposed to only be behind by about 6 months, so at one point during construction...both towers would be rising at the same time...just that one would be 6 months ahead of the other.

We'll see.

Yeah, I guess that's what I was under the impression was going to happen, but the more I hear about it, and the photos showing only the office tower, has led me to believe it's farther off than originally thought. Oh, well. Ya never know...

gymratmanaz
Jul 9, 2008, 11:25 PM
WE HAVE ACHIEVED CRANE!!!

Went down this afternoon and at the bottom where we were discussing the pad being poured, there is a grid of steal awaiting cement, and on top of it is the first section of the crane, the anchor section!!!!

Here we go boys and girls!

HX_Guy
Jul 9, 2008, 11:51 PM
Awesome awesome awesome! :D

I don't know why, but for me, a tower crane is the real thing when it comes to construction...anything prior, excavating, etc...just seems temporary, like it could be stopped at any time. Not that a tower crane makes anything 100% definite, but it's definitely a big step in the right direction.

HX_Guy
Jul 10, 2008, 12:11 AM
I got an email back from RED, I previously asked if the condos were still part of the project.

"RED Development will be sending out a press release shortly regarding the project and I can add you to the distribution list if you wish.

Condominium units are still a part of the CityScape project."

tempedude
Jul 10, 2008, 12:23 AM
Good news all around for Cityscape today. :yes:

:thrasher: :drummer: :leek: :dancing: :dancing: :dancing:

gymratmanaz
Jul 10, 2008, 12:41 AM
Add me HX_Guy..... Did you also ask about any last minute height changes or changes of any other kind...or additions????

Vicelord John
Jul 10, 2008, 12:49 AM
Awesome awesome awesome! :D

I don't know why, but for me, a tower crane is the real thing when it comes to construction...anything prior, excavating, etc...just seems temporary, like it could be stopped at any time. Not that a tower crane makes anything 100% definite, but it's definitely a big step in the right direction.

except in respect to the new office building on 23rd and camelback that has been dormant for a month.

gymratmanaz
Jul 10, 2008, 12:57 AM
Ye of little faith..... I think Cityscape will surpass our imaginations....well, not yours John. Yours is insurmountable I imagine.

PHX_PD
Jul 10, 2008, 11:49 AM
Ahhh, crane.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1100.jpg

Also, it appears they are beginning to excavate where the core of the office tower will be:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1128.jpg

HX_Guy
Jul 10, 2008, 4:53 PM
PHX_PD, thanks for the photos, that is awesome to see! I guess the FAA stuff is damn accurate...it said the crane will be up on 07/15...and I'm thinking that is exactly when it will actually be up and functional.

JI5
Jul 10, 2008, 6:57 PM
WE HAVE ACHIEVED CRANE!!!

Went down this afternoon and at the bottom where we were discussing the pad being poured, there is a grid of steal awaiting cement, and on top of it is the first section of the crane, the anchor section!!!!

Here we go boys and girls!

Everyone knows that there are no girls on the forum.

Classical in Phoenix
Jul 10, 2008, 7:06 PM
Everyone knows that there are no girls on the forum.

And I came here hoping to start an affair with one.

gymratmanaz
Jul 10, 2008, 7:17 PM
better be open to a lifestyle change then...

Vicelord John
Jul 10, 2008, 7:23 PM
better be open to a lifestyle change then...

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Don B.
Jul 10, 2008, 11:20 PM
Or as we say in the gay community (usually when you see a hot guy with a chick):

Pitch the bitch and make the switch.

:lmao:

Okay, so back to the thread topic at hand: They are breaking ground on this project (with crane and all) and we still have no solid confirmation of what they are building?

--don

HX_Guy
Jul 10, 2008, 11:32 PM
Sure we do, a 27 story office tower. :)

gymratmanaz
Jul 11, 2008, 1:17 AM
The crane platform is solid cement now with cement walls. They poured it already. It is anchored and ready!!!

As per height, maybe we could still get lucky. Maybe they saw the light rail practice and the excitement and are thinking, you know, what the Hell. Let's go higher!!!!!!! Could happen?!?!?!?!?!?!?????????????...........

combusean
Jul 11, 2008, 11:37 AM
Or as we say in the gay community (usually when you see a hot guy with a chick):

Pitch the bitch and make the switch.

:lmao:


Don... straight boys are drama... get over it. :tup:


Okay, so back to the thread topic at hand: They are breaking ground on this project (with crane and all) and we still have no solid confirmation of what they are building?

--don

I'm kinda drudging the upcoming press release. RED's PR wrote it in such a way as to say the bare minimum is coming with regard to the residential component. I hope to God that it's not some anticlimactic < 400-footer put out with the limited capital they've got on hand after a couple critical investor departures...

Really I'd be happy to see there be another pad on top of the Palomar for a future residential tower rather than some lame thing built just for its own sake.

3000th post! Holy @#$!

sundevilgrad
Jul 11, 2008, 6:00 PM
I'm not sure if it's been posted yet, but don't get too comfortable with the idea that Wachovia will anchor the office tower. They're struggling, bad. They might not make it out of 2008...

Wachovia Sells Broadway Building in New York City at a Loss

By David M. Levitt

July 11 (Bloomberg) -- A joint venture led by Wachovia Corp. agreed to sell a 21-story office building in midtown Manhattan's garment district at a $41 million loss, people with knowledge of the decision said.

Wachovia, owner of 85 percent of 1372 Broadway, and minority owner SL Green Realty Corp. agreed to sell the building for $294 million, or about $542 a square foot, to a partnership led by New York investor Lloyd Goldman, they said. Wachovia, the fourth- largest U.S. bank, acquired its interest in July 2007 from SL Green in a deal that valued the property at $335 million.

kevininlb
Jul 11, 2008, 6:35 PM
:previous: I'd be willing to wager a bet that Wachovia will move in as planned.

Lots of companies are hurting right now, but for the most part they don't ditch future plans, particularly something that in the scheme of things is a tiny expenditure. They'll sell off real estate, lay off employees, cut marketing budgets, that type of stuff, but scratching future plans? Only if things get really desperate.

PhxPavilion
Jul 12, 2008, 7:51 AM
Or as we say in the gay community (usually when you see a hot guy with a chick):

Pitch the bitch and make the switch.

:lmao:

Ditch sounds better but all the more power to you, just more available women for me.

BigBuilder
Jul 12, 2008, 6:03 PM
Ditch sounds better but all the more power to you, just more available women for me.


Is this an architecture forum or a gay dating site? That's what I thought. (Please keep posts on topic)

HooverDam
Jul 12, 2008, 7:28 PM
Is this an architecture forum or a gay dating site? That's what I thought. (Please keep posts on topic)

You have 8 posts on this site and aren't a moderator, perhaps you shouldn't be telling people how to post.

sundevilgrad
Jul 14, 2008, 4:04 PM
Still willing to make that wager kevininlb? Indymac, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac imploded over the weekend...

Congratulations everyone, we're all homeowners now!

Vicelord John
Jul 14, 2008, 4:14 PM
I like the general attitude in the Phoenix threads that says anything goes.

CANUC
Jul 14, 2008, 4:26 PM
Still willing to make that wager kevininlb? Indymac, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac imploded over the weekend...

Congratulations everyone, we're all homeowners now!

You are over sensationalizing the news. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae did not implode over the weekend. With 5 trillion in mortgage holdings that was a ridiculous comment to make. What the government is doing is attempting to insure that the two firms would be able to continue to borrow by the beginning of business on Monday.

I don’t mean get on a soap box but this type of reactionary response is in a large way what is fueling what Phil Graham referred to as a “mental recession”.

kevininlb
Jul 14, 2008, 5:15 PM
Still willing to make that wager kevininlb? Indymac, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac imploded over the weekend...

Congratulations everyone, we're all homeowners now!

Yup. I didn't say the mortgage crisis wasn't real, I was just saying companies don't stop planning for the future because of a downturn. Sound companies with good plans continue moving forward and sometimes even capitalize on a downturn to establish a bigger base for when the economy rebounds.

I don't know that much about Wachovia, but they seem pretty smart - don't see them running for the hills.

As for Freddie and Fannie, I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's two companies asking their parent company (the U.S. government) to float a loan until things get better.

PHX31
Jul 14, 2008, 5:39 PM
Looks as though we'll be seeing the tower crane as soon as tomorrow.

Unless I've missed some posts and some information, if it is a "normal" tower crane (relatively flat, or perpdendicular to the ground, like they are using at Central Park East) we might be in for a surprise as to the final heights of the bulidings, as in we may be in for a new tallest or at least taller than expected... didn't the FAA approve a 550' (or so) crane height?

However, if they use the derrick crane type (is that the name?), the one that rises at a sharp angle from the base, then CityScape will be on the short end of the spectrum.

So, let's all hope for the normal crane rising tomorrow.

sundevilgrad
Jul 14, 2008, 5:58 PM
Canuc - I'm not over-sensationilizing anything. Since Fannie and Freddie are GSE's, maybe I shouldn't have used the term "imploded", I should've used nationalized. That's what happens when a GSE fails, it gets nationalized (as in socialized, as in we're all homeowners now). They mail have 5 trillion in mortgages on the books, but the assests behind those mortgages aren't worth anywhere near 5 trillion and that makes them insolvent, or bankrupt or whatever term you would like to use to describe the situation. IndyMac on the other hand imploded. Or maybe you think the newly installed, government CEO that was put in place by the FDIC is just a figment of my imagination, part of the mental recession?

If Wachovia goes under, and there's a chance they will, they will not be the lead tennant at Cityscape. Wachovia has huge subprime and alt-a exposure, as well as massive amounts of subprime auto loan exposure and it does not have the capital to cover the losses they will take on these loans. But hey, don't take my word for it, keep pretending that you're in disneyland and that this stuff is all made up. After all, it's only a mental recession.


Sorry for the rant, but this does have to do with Cityscape. What happens to Cityscape if Wachovia backs out?

Edit:
It's just a mental thing... http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080714/indymac_customers.html

CANUC
Jul 14, 2008, 6:18 PM
^Well I don’t live in Disneyland and I’m not in some type of denial that there has been a mortgage melt down, my own house gained nearly $100,000 dollars in 5 months after I purchase in 2005 only to loose it all just two years later. As of today its value is only about $2000 dollars above the purchase price. But saying that two institutions that hold %50 of all of the mortgages in the US and are currently providing nearly 70% of current loans, as having “imploded” did sound like sensationalism, that’s all.

As far as Wachovia and Cityscape, I don’t know since I’m not a developer but I could only assume that with so much already invested in Cityscape RED would have no choice but to continue forward with the office building and hope to attract another tenant. I don’t believe that if Wachovia were to fail this would automatically mean that as Wachovia goes so does Cityscape. Shaky economy; yes. But do I believe its all justified; no. Sorry if I don’t buy into all the doom and gloom.

Don B.
Jul 14, 2008, 8:12 PM
I have lots of feelers out (been working e-mail and the phones most of the day) to try and find out just what in the hell Cityscape is building here. Will keep you posted accordingly.

As best as I can tell from people I've spoken to so far, the only thing under construction right now is the plaza/basement for the towers, the smaller buildings, and the 28-29 story "Wachovia Tower." Everything else is on hold at the moment.

--don

andrewkfromaz
Jul 14, 2008, 10:19 PM
As best as I can tell from people I've spoken to so far, the only thing under construction right now is the plaza/basement for the towers, the smaller buildings, and the 28-29 story "Wachovia Tower." Everything else is on hold at the moment.

--don

Thanks Don!

Is this really news at this point? If they can trash (ok, to avoid further sensationalism, I'll say "put on hold") the other towers this easily, they can bring them back online when the market turns around middle-enda next year. Right guys?

Phxbyrd211
Jul 14, 2008, 10:32 PM
We should put Don, Sean, Hoover and Loftlvr in a war room with a phone bank, video wall and satellite hook-up to track down Phoenix development news and figure out why we can't get a new tallest or light-rail in the West Valley. John can gopher snacks and bathroom reading material to the hard working forum members while also feeding their cats and watering their orchids.

Vicelord John
Jul 14, 2008, 10:39 PM
We should put Don, Sean, Hoover and Loftlvr in a war room with a phone bank, video wall and satellite hook-up to track down Phoenix development news and figure out why we can't get a new tallest or light-rail in the West Valley. John can gopher snacks and bathroom reading material to the hard working forum members while also feeding their cats and watering their orchids.

I'm nobody's bitch, bitch.

How about since half of the people you mentioned live in the suburbs, they gopher snacks for me.

andrewkfromaz
Jul 14, 2008, 10:40 PM
The rest of us are just here to entertain and occasionally annoy. Ok, so maybe John's here to entertain. The rest of us are just here to be an audience.

Don B.
Jul 14, 2008, 11:03 PM
Okay, my work paid off:

Source: Mike Ebert at RED Development.

Tower I - Wachovia Tower
28 stories (but there's no 13th floor, so it is really 27 stories)
385 feet tall
commercial offices
under construction now

Tower II - Palomar Tower
36 stories
415 feet tall
retail + hotel + 116 residential units starting at $400 psf
will be under construction within 12 months*

Towers III and IV are the purview of Barron Collier Companies, and they are waiting at the moment. Perhaps 24 to 36 months out, depending on various factors

--don

* Plan as of the moment. This could change, however.

HX_Guy
Jul 14, 2008, 11:19 PM
Don, so the retail that is part of the hotel/condo tower is not part of the phase I now under construction? Namely, the PF Changs, which was ground floor retail in that tower. Or is that part of the "plaza" you said is under construction?

As for the tower crane, it was approved for 490' but I'm not sure what type of crane is being used...maybe we'll find out tomorrow.

plinko
Jul 14, 2008, 11:23 PM
^Good work. Nice to finally know.

Of course, Towers III and IV happen to sit on the SAME lot as Towers III and IV of the original Collier Center development. Go figure that Collier still controls the options.

The city should never have divided up the funds by block. Build the whole thing or go home.

HX_Guy
Jul 14, 2008, 11:25 PM
Building permit issued for the office tower today. This is an actual build permit, not an application, so they have the full go ahead to get this thing rising out of the ground. :)

Permit Description STRUCTURAL FRAME ONLY
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL NEW


DESCRIPTION OF WORK: STRUCTURAL FRAME ONLY FOR SUPERSTRUCTURE OF OFFICE BUILDING 27 STORIES. Frame includes columns, pt slabs, conc shafts for levels 1 through 27. BELOW GRADE STRUCTURE UNDER SEPARATE PERMIT BLD 08015059. HVAC, curtain wall, slab edge fire protection, and plumbing systems for the building are also under separate review PHAS 0705627-03. This permit is structural only.

PHXguyinOKC
Jul 15, 2008, 12:00 AM
415 ft is disappointing but it will make a nice impact on the skyline.

JimInCal
Jul 15, 2008, 12:56 AM
Towers III and IV are the purview of Barron Collier Companies, and they are waiting at the moment. Perhaps 24 to 36 months out, depending on various factors

--don

* Plan as of the moment. This could change, however.

Thanks for the sleuthing Don! I don't get a warm fuzzy that Barron Collier will ever do anything with their plot other than sit on it. I am still amazed that they haven't pulled the trigger on filling their hotel pad considering the gigantic expansion of the convention center and light rail on the front and back porches of the Collier Center. Has anyone looked at their web page? I attached it below. What a joke. Its real estate section was last updated a year ago and you gotta love the cheesy clipart icons on the front page. Jeeez, hire a web designer that graduated from high school already. This does not infuse one with confidence that this "BIG" developer can be taken serioulsy.

http://www.barroncollier.com/

Don B.
Jul 15, 2008, 3:02 AM
To be clear, the low stuff (e.g. 2-4 stories) is all under construction now as well. He also confirmed that Wachovia is still on board, as well as A.J.'s and P.F. Chang's.

415 feet will still be the second tallest tower in the metro area, although still utterly pathetic for a metro area of 4.2 million. I mean, fraking Mobile, Alabama (metro pop. 500k) has a 700-foot tower. Omaha, Nebraska, and Des Moines, Iowa, both have 600+ footers. Both have under 1 million people in their metro areas.

We can't break 500 feet if our lives depended on it.

--don

HX_Guy
Jul 15, 2008, 3:12 AM
Ok...so the low stuff is part under construction now...that's good. Essentially, we may end up with another Colliers Center though...office tower, retail/restaurant...and an empty pad left for the future. I guess we'll see.

Did he say anything about Block 77? Any changes there? What is the time line of that block?

PhxPavilion
Jul 15, 2008, 6:16 AM
415 feet will still be the second tallest tower in the metro area, although still utterly pathetic for a metro area of 4.2 million. I mean, fraking Mobile, Alabama (metro pop. 500k) has a 700-foot tower. Omaha, Nebraska, and Des Moines, Iowa, both have 600+ footers. Both have under 1 million people in their metro areas.

We can't break 500 feet if our lives depended on it.

--don

It's the suburban curse.

Don B.
Jul 15, 2008, 11:20 AM
Hx, what is block 77?

--don

PHX_PD
Jul 15, 2008, 12:26 PM
^ Block 77 is PSP. Anyway, it doesn't look like they're ready to claim any sky today, but who knows.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1200.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1175.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_1216.jpg

Don B.
Jul 15, 2008, 1:47 PM
I thought the "low stuff" was supposed to go in where PSP was (e.g. Block 77)?

If true, then it will be built as planned.

To recap, we are getting, right now:

Tower I - Wachovia Tower
28 stories (but there's no 13th floor, so it is really 27 stories)
385 feet tall
commercial offices
under construction now

The "low stuff" (e.g. 2-4 stories) is all under construction now as well. Wachovia is still on board, as well as A.J.'s and P.F. Chang's.

#####################################################################################

IN THE NEAR FUTURE:

Tower II - Palomar Tower
36 stories
415 feet tall
retail + hotel + 116 residential units starting at $400 psf
will be under construction within 12 months (assuming all goes well)

IN THE DISTANT FUTURE:

Towers III and IV (assuming all goes well).

--don

sundevilgrad
Jul 15, 2008, 2:18 PM
Wachovia will always say they're on board. In fact, they'll say they're well capitilized and that investors have nothing to worry about right up to the point that the FDIC comes in and siezes the bank. I'm not making this shit up:

AP
Analyst warns on Wachovia amid more bank worries
Tuesday July 15, 9:59 am ET
Analyst calls situation bleak for Wachovia as jitters about the banking system continue


NEW YORK (AP) -- The situation is increasingly bleak for Wachovia Corp. and the bank's mortgage portfolio will continue to lose value, "seriously jeopardizing" the company's ability to generate earnings, an influential analyst warned on Tuesday.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080715/banks.html

Luke Skyscraper
Jul 15, 2008, 2:31 PM
Don,
Nice summary of the major components of CityScape. Does anyone really think that if Wachovia goes belly up, that construction on the office tower would be scrapped? I would assume RED goes forward as planned, but would have to get busy to find new tenant(s) to replace Wachovia.......

tempedude
Jul 15, 2008, 2:40 PM
Don,
Nice summary of the major components of CityScape. Does anyone really think that if Wachovia goes belly up, that construction on the office tower would be scrapped? I would assume RED goes forward as planned, but would have to get busy to find new tenant(s) to replace Wachovia.......

Yes, I think the office tower will still go forward as planned even IF Wachovia goes belly up. RED will look for a new primary tenant. There is still a high demand for Class A office space in downtown Phoenix. Plus, there are already one or two more tenant(s) on board for the tower. Wachovia isn't the only one.

gymratmanaz
Jul 16, 2008, 2:22 AM
The crane is being assembled on the east side of the hole. It is blue and appears to be the same type as at OCPE. It was hard to tell. It was unassembled and being put together. They were attaching all the pieces and had another crane there to do that.