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JI5
Aug 6, 2008, 7:49 AM
I park in the cityscape parking lot, and I can look into the site all day at work!!

HA-HA.

Vicelord John
Aug 6, 2008, 7:50 AM
I park in the cityscape parking lot, and I can look into the site all day at work!!

HA-HA.

you mean you have another job outside of being a hostess? :haha: :P

combusean
Aug 6, 2008, 8:37 AM
:previous: Well, yeah, but aren't the apartments part of what's going up at PSP? And there are only a few apartments, right? I'm trying to remember -- I seem to recall these being part of low-rise buildings over retail, or something.

Sorry, I provided no insight, only thoughts.


In addition to the pour, construction of the new Jefferson Street entrance ramp to the Patriot’s Park garage and removal of the laser light tower is underway. Construction of the new park and associated surface improvements will commence in early 2009 and complete later that year.


I would assume that covers everything on the PSP block itself.

PD, props for that observation on the west side of the hole, etc. :tup:

PHX_PD
Aug 6, 2008, 9:49 AM
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/b2719e9e.jpg

combusean
Aug 6, 2008, 11:23 AM
^ Holy cow. She's getting up there. :)

PHX_PD
Aug 14, 2008, 12:50 PM
A quick look into the CityScape hole from tonight:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/480cf0f5.jpg

Luke Skyscraper
Aug 14, 2008, 1:17 PM
PHX PD
Thanks for the picture! I am curious about two things. It looks like they have covered the cement pad with dirt. I thought the pad would be the "basement floor". Will they pour another "floor"?
Does anyone know what they are doing on all the scaffolding around the sides? It seems quite labor intensive.

gymratmanaz
Aug 14, 2008, 1:40 PM
The scaffolding is to cement the interior of the parking garage. Couldn't really have all of those rebar poles sticking into the garage, the ones injected into the walls to secure the walls themselves.

phoenixboi08
Aug 15, 2008, 2:14 AM
@#$!

The article's accompanying video was almost about to be cool until they completely dissed downtown's restaurant scene. We wonder why downtown has problems when we have people like this perpetuating its myths and woes.

LOL! You can blame the Teleprompter!:lmao:

AZ KID
Aug 15, 2008, 3:11 AM
After a rain like tonight what (if anything) happens in the cityscape hole. I would assume there is many puddles... are there any delays or do they go on like nothing ever happened?

PhxPavilion
Aug 15, 2008, 8:54 AM
The crane continued to work while it was raining so...

plinko
Aug 15, 2008, 7:02 PM
After a rain like tonight what (if anything) happens in the cityscape hole. I would assume there is many puddles... are there any delays or do they go on like nothing ever happened?

They just pump out the excess water using sump pumps into the city storm drain.

AZ KID
Aug 15, 2008, 9:58 PM
thanks

Luke Skyscraper
Aug 22, 2008, 1:27 PM
There have not been any new photos in over a week. Can any of you shutter bugs get us our photo "fix"?

PHX_PD
Aug 23, 2008, 10:55 AM
Yeah, I've been neglecting CityScape in favor of Central Park East. Still a big hole in the ground:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_3036.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb56/Phoenixguy/IMG_3040.jpg

Luke Skyscraper
Aug 23, 2008, 2:00 PM
PHX PD,
Thanks! You are right, still a big hole (still with lots of dirt). It will be quite awhile before this gets above ground.

AZ KID
Aug 26, 2008, 4:11 AM
I know we can tell but the permit for the construction of the core and shell was submitted.

Permit# BLD-T484344 Issue Date Expires 8/21/10
Permit Description SHELL AND CORE FOR OFFICE TOWER
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 1 E WASHINGTON ST 85004 Zoning
L 1 B * REPLAT OF BLOCK 22 QS Q10-28 APN 112-27-125 Dist 08

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description/Scope of Work: COMMERCIAL NEW

neworleans
Aug 29, 2008, 11:42 PM
does anyone know why they covered the cement floor with dirt?

andrewkfromaz
Sep 3, 2008, 5:04 PM
does anyone know why they covered the cement floor with dirt?

It's a heck of a lot cheaper than concrete. The project's structural engineers said that you need a foundation (a "mat," I believe) at a certain depth to support a building at a certain height. The bottom of the floor of the garage only needs to be a certain depth, so they fill in dirt in between.

gymratmanaz
Sep 3, 2008, 6:30 PM
AND NOW THERE IS A NICE CEMENT FLOOR OVER MOST OF THE DIRT. oops, sorry about caps.

AZ KID
Sep 3, 2008, 10:12 PM
picture anyone?

HX_Guy
Sep 4, 2008, 12:02 AM
What happened to Callison and the designs we had seen so far?

Davis to design CityScape Phase 2, construction to begin in 2009
Phoenix Business Journal - by Jan Buchholz

Davis of Tempe has been named by RED Development as the architect for Phase 2 of the massive CityScape project now under way in downtown Phoenix.

The mixed-use project encompasses three city blocks between Washington and Jefferson streets and First Avenue and Second Street. Davis' responsibilities will include design of the Palomar Hotel by Klimpton, a residential tower and retail shops at street level. Construction on Phase 2 is scheduled to begin in early 2009.

"The CityScape project is an example of true mixed-used design blending urban live, work and play space seamlessly," said Steve Bassett, principal-in-charge of the project for Davis. "We are so proud to be a part of the revitalization of downtown Phoenix."

Phase 1 of the 2.5 million-square-foot development is started and includes construction of an underground parking garage, retail and office space, and public plazas. Phase 1 should be completed sometime in 2010.

admdavid
Sep 4, 2008, 12:06 AM
So, Phase 2 is the condo/hotel tower that's approved at 515', correct? Maybe that's why we haven't seen any definitive renders because they've gone back to the drawing board with it. Hope this is a good thing.

Edit: Der...didn't read the whole snippet of the article. Anyone know anything about Davis?

AZ KID
Sep 4, 2008, 1:04 AM
this could be good news, great news, or really bad news

Sonoran_Dweller
Sep 4, 2008, 6:58 AM
Regarding who Davis is:

From archiplanet.org (a wikipedia like thing regarding architecture) (http://www.archiplanet.org/wiki/Davis,_Tempe,_Arizona,_USA)

Services
Architecture, Planning, Urban Design, Interior Architecture and Environmental Graphics

Focus
Office, Mid to High-Rise Residential, Senior Living, Hospitality, Retail, Golf Clubhouses, Restaurants, Industrial and Mixed-Use Design

Projects
Firm Statement
With over 30 years experience, DAVIS (formerly DFD CornoyerHedrick) offers full service Architecture, Planning, Urban Design and Environmental Graphics.

DAVIS is uniquely structured with teams of market sector specialists in Office, Multi-Family Residential, Hospitality, and Retail. This vault of talent enables DFDCH to expertly design almost any type of project. This unique capability also meets the need for designers who can deliver on the hot trend of mixed-use. In addition, DAVIS has extensive experience designing other product types such as Golf Clubhouses, Restaurants, Custom Single Family Homes and Industrial buildings.

They used to be called DFD CornoyerHedrick, but changed their name to Davis in late 2007:

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2007/11/19/daily26.html?surround=lfn

Wednesday, November 21, 2007
Architect simplifies with name change to 'Davis'
Phoenix Business Journal

Architectural firm DFD CornoyerHedrick has changed its name to Davis, reflecting ownership by Michael and Lisa Davis.

The name DFD CornoyerHedrick was created after DFD Architecture acquired Cornoyer Hedrick in 2001. The announcement coincides with the Phoenix company's move from The Camelback Esplanade to a new headquarters designed by the firm at Hayden Ferry Lakeside in Tempe. Davis' 118 employees will occupy the building's second floor space and half of the first floor.

"We've spent several years carefully blending every facet of the two companies and the result is a unique corporate culture focused squarely on design excellence and enhancing the communities we touch, said CEO Mike Davis. "As we continue to seek opportunities to grow both locally and nationally ... it seemed more letters tacked onto the end of DFDCH started to look like alphabet soup. It also presented a significant marketing challenge. How do you create a campaign that cleverly ties into DFDCHLMNOP? Simplicity was the answer."


And their website:
http://www.thedavisexperience.com/

loftlovr
Sep 4, 2008, 9:50 PM
It is actually great news. Davis is bad ass!! (DFD) They designed Portland Place Downtown, The Esplanade and 2211 residences in Biltmore area, Hayden Ferry buildings and they did the "cool" rendering for the Sheraton hotel.

BigBuilder
Sep 9, 2008, 3:44 AM
After revealing the new name of Copper Square >Downtown Phoenix
I have another scoop. A major, major, major Phoenix Law Firm is going to move into Cityscape when it's done. I know one of the main partners and they just finished the deal. The partner was told Cityscape will be Phoenix tallest! :cheers:

HX_Guy
Sep 9, 2008, 3:51 AM
It's not Squire, Sanders & Dempsey, is it?

AZ KID
Sep 9, 2008, 3:52 AM
Name of law firm? and source please???

renone
Sep 9, 2008, 4:22 PM
The Squire, Sanders deal has obviously been done for a while and was announced a long time ago. At the time, Squire was told that the building would not be the tallest in Phoenix. If there is a new sizeable law firm moving in that was told something different, I would be very anxious to hear about it. There are only a handful of "major" law firms in the valley if we are talking about size. Snell, Fennemore, Quarles, Lewis & Roca, Bryan Cave and Brown & Bain I think are the big hitters. Is it one of those?

HX_Guy
Sep 9, 2008, 4:30 PM
Hey Renone, any chance for some updated pictures from your office like you used to post?

vertex
Sep 9, 2008, 11:54 PM
I have some. In downtown this past Sunday, and took these with my phone camera.

Additional decking/floors being added.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/5972/pano630632smallvg1.jpg

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/5162/200809070907637smallet8.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5251/200809070906635smallux7.jpg

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3293/200809070906634smallwd3.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7139/pano646649smalljc3.jpg


Bonus shots! A crane at work, taking apart the Patriots square canopy structure.

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5985/200809070902626smallze3.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3452/200809070903628smallle7.jpg

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8717/200809070914651smalljc6.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9649/200809070915652smalljp4.jpg

HX_Guy
Sep 10, 2008, 12:33 AM
That's a nice phone camera! Good pictures, thanks for the update.

PhxPavilion
Sep 10, 2008, 7:05 AM
The core is rising pretty fast, might be at street level in a couple weeks.

As far as a new tallest, the only tower ever under consideration was the Palomar tower. I think it's safe to say that won't happen so unless Red has somehow managed to keep it secret that the north office tower's height has been increased due to demand, there is no new tallest.

NIXPHX77
Sep 10, 2008, 7:19 AM
tiffany and Bosco?

Phillips and assoc? the eagle? just kidding!

I hope it's all true - fingers crossed! thx for the scoop.

Hysonk
Sep 10, 2008, 5:27 PM
The core is rising pretty fast, might be at street level in a couple weeks.

As far as a new tallest, the only tower ever under consideration was the Palomar tower. I think it's safe to say that won't happen so unless Red has somehow managed to keep it secret that the north office tower's height has been increased due to demand, there is no new tallest.

For clarity sake, let's refer to it as 1) The Office tower (Wachovia) north side facing washington and 2) The mixed use tower (Palomar, condos) southside facing jefferson.

The height increase that I posted late last week from the city of Phoenix calls for 50,000 additional sq.ft. added to the second mixed use tower (Palomar). So, when built (timeline in dispute) it will be Phoenix's tallest.

HX_Guy
Sep 10, 2008, 5:36 PM
The City of Phoenix calls for 50,000 sq ft added to the Phase I tower, which is the Wachovia office tower. That has already been cleared up.
The documents between the city and the developer has always called the Wachovia office tower "the mixed use" tower and said it could be used for residential, hotel, retail, or office. RED decided to go with all office, and probably some retail on the ground.

The second tower has no sq. ft. requirements, so how could the city stipulate that 50k more be added on when there is no set base?

Hysonk
Sep 10, 2008, 8:35 PM
But how can the city approve an additional 50K sq. ft. on a building already under construction? I didn't think you'd be able to add that much space and height to a building that's already started but I guess you can.

Sorry for the confusion guys.

sundevilgrad
Sep 10, 2008, 8:39 PM
I haven't been posting as much lately, mostly because most find my economically centered post depressing. However, this is directly related to skyscrapers. I hope we don't get left with a nice big crater at 0,0... Or worse yet, a half finished skyscraper...

Businessweek
Real Estate September 4, 2008
The Credit Squeeze Hits Global Properties

Developers of commercial properties from London to Tokyo are suffering as banks cut lending

First came the U.S. housing bust. Now comes the overseas aftershock. As the global financial system reels from the credit crunch, skyscraper projects have stalled in London, Tokyo developers have gone belly-up, and Indian office space can be had for fire-sale prices.

What do bad U.S. home loans have to do with office buildings halfway around the planet? Plenty. Global lenders, chastened by the subprime mess, are denying credit to many builders and demanding tougher terms on loans to buy or refinance commercial properties. And as those same lenders lay off thousands of workers, they need less office space—putting downward pressure on rents and spurring developers to rethink their plans. "It's impossible nowadays to keep financial crises in one area," says Minoru Mori, chief executive of Japan's Mori Building, which just cut the ribbon on the 101-story Shanghai World Financial Center, China's tallest skyscraper. He ought to know: Lehman Brothers (LEH) recently scrapped plans to move into the building, and Morgan Stanley said it would rent only four floors instead of eight.

Full article

BigBuilder
Sep 11, 2008, 6:33 AM
"They will be in a complex that contains Phoenix tallest building. It's not first firm on that list.

HX_Guy
Sep 11, 2008, 7:10 AM
But how can the city approve an additional 50K sq. ft. on a building already under construction? I didn't think you'd be able to add that much space and height to a building that's already started but I guess you can.



By the same token, how could they add 50k sq. ft. to a building that has no stipulations on the size or even if it's built or not?

The agreement between the city and the developer only require one tower to be built, which the city calls the "Mixed use tower" but it can have any use, and the developer went with all office.

They don't have to build the condo/hotel tower in order to get any money from the city, therefore there is no pre-set sq. ft. requirement for the whole building set, as was the case with the office tower (required minimum of 550,000 sq. ft.)

I'm guessing they will be able to add the 50k sq ft to the office tower but not to the tower itself, but to the area above the retail portion (NW corner)...

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew7.jpg

I don't know, that may seem a bit ambitious, not sure if that's even possible seeing how it would block off a good portion of the view/windows of the west facing lower floors of the Wachovia tower.

Who knows...I guess we'll find out how it pans out.

PHX31
Sep 11, 2008, 7:48 AM
On another note, I hate the design of the Wachovia Building... It looks like the Qwest tower, only lighter in color, and with a slant roof instead of the pyramid top.

Can't any other new buildings have vertical lines, rather than the boring, widely-used, and short-look-enducing horizontal lines? Like the US Bank Building tries to do.

PhxPavilion
Sep 11, 2008, 9:47 AM
Looks more like One CPE if you ask me.

neworleans
Sep 12, 2008, 6:53 PM
i think it looks great. of course i don't care what it looks like.. at least it's another skyscraper for phoenix.

renone
Sep 12, 2008, 8:35 PM
Hey Renone, any chance for some updated pictures from your office like you used to post?

Because of where I am located, my pictures would only show the dirt ramp. I can't really see into the hole very well. As soon as the construction gets above ground level, I will be able to take some better pictures.

HX_Guy
Sep 13, 2008, 2:10 AM
CityScape developer lands funding

by Andrew Johnson - Sept. 13, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

The developer of downtown Phoenix's CityScape project will draw on $200 million in funds for current and future projects under a new partnership with a Texas investment-management firm.

Red Development LLC will use the money to help pay construction and development expenses, the company announced Friday.

The money comes from a fund managed by CDK Realty Advisors in Dallas. The firm typically buys stakes in real-estate projects to generate a return for institutional investors. The company has invested in prior Red projects.

The partnership gives Red access to capital at a time when banks and private lenders are hesitant to finance large-scale construction projects.

"In today's market, it's really challenging to get financing, and anything we can do to help us get financing is going to (make) us stronger," said Dave Claflin, vice president of marketing in Red's Kansas City, Mo., office. The firm also has an office in Scottsdale.

An undisclosed portion of the funds will go to CityScape, a $900 million mixed-use development that spans three city blocks near US Airways Center.

The project, which is receiving about $120 million in city incentives, includes office space, a hotel, restaurants and other amenities.

Red is co-developing CityScape with CDK Partners, which is not affiliated with CDK Realty Advisors.

Other projects that will benefit from the partnership include retail developments in Kansas City, Reno and Little Rock, Ark.

The size of CDK Realty Advisors' ownership stake will depend on how much money it invests per project.

Red's projects were not in jeopardy without the funding, Claflin said, but the funding gives the firm additional leverage.

"What this allows us to do is go out and obtain construction financing at the most attractive rates available," he said.

The first phase of CityScape, a 27-story office tower, is under construction and slated to open in early 2010. .

AZ KID
Sep 13, 2008, 8:48 PM
Thats great news but it doesnt mention anything about resedential units

PHX NATIVE 929
Sep 15, 2008, 10:25 PM
A quick note on the rendering previously mentioned from the latest AZRE magazine... There is a sign on the 2nd floor above PF Changs that says "Jonathan's Steakhouse". Also, they have flags from numerous countries hanging from the 2nd floor along Jefferson, near the Palomar entrance.

AZ KID
Sep 15, 2008, 10:39 PM
This there anyway you could scan the picture and post it here?

HX_Guy
Sep 15, 2008, 10:42 PM
man I've been trying to get a copy and haven't had any luck. Can someone mail me a copy or scan or take a pic or somthing?

Hysonk
Sep 16, 2008, 5:18 PM
Here it is:

http://s409.photobucket.com/albums/pp180/mdpx/?action=view&current=cityscape.jpg

HX_Guy
Sep 16, 2008, 5:37 PM
Awesome, thanks. (Now I just have to get a higher res. version...but I'll work on that. :D )

Here is the new rendering, side by side with the old version. They are mostly the same, though the Davis rendering looks a bit more chiseled and looks to maybe have a stainless steel facade on the hotel portion? It also looks shorter, but the floor height is the same so it's more realistic whereas the old renderings made it look much taller then Wachovia and that won't be the case.

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeDavis.jpghttp://nitnelav.com/CityscapeDavis2.jpg

Hysonk
Sep 16, 2008, 6:11 PM
Either way it's all good. I do laugh at all those people just walking hap-hazardly across Jefferson. "Look Marvin, there's retail up yonder!"

Vicelord John
Sep 16, 2008, 6:22 PM
it's a scene from dawn of the dead

PHX31
Sep 16, 2008, 8:16 PM
no, it's a scene from Shaun of the Dead

renone
Sep 16, 2008, 8:54 PM
After revealing the new name of Copper Square >Downtown Phoenix
I have another scoop. A major, major, major Phoenix Law Firm is going to move into Cityscape when it's done. I know one of the main partners and they just finished the deal. The partner was told Cityscape will be Phoenix tallest! :cheers:

Any news on who this additional law firm is?

PhxPavilion
Sep 17, 2008, 9:59 AM
I wasn't aware dreaming big and pushing the envelope included another midrise tower with a design that leaves something to be desired.

Urban Rising
Sep 17, 2008, 6:15 PM
CityScape will not be a new tallest in Phoenix. There are currently discussions of revising the current Halo for additional signage at the top of the Wachovia building but the overall height will not increase and Chase will remain the tallest building.

HooverDam
Sep 17, 2008, 6:35 PM
CityScape will not be a new tallest in Phoenix. There are currently discussions of revising the current Halo for additional signage at the top of the Wachovia building but the overall height will not increase and Chase will remain the tallest building.

Welcome to the forum. Not that I'm doubting you, but where do you get your info? Its never been rumored that the Wachovia tower would be a new tallest, it was the south tower that has been rumored to possibly eclipse Chase.

Urban Rising
Sep 17, 2008, 6:58 PM
South Tower will be 417'-3" to the top and just under 400' to the top of the residential floors. Unless value engineering reduces the height of the building. The building will not get taller from those heights. Chase will remain the tallest building in Phoenix. However, South Tower will become the tallest residential building in Phoenix.

PHX31
Sep 17, 2008, 7:23 PM
South Tower will be 417'-3" to the top and just under 400' to the top of the residential floors. Unless value engineering reduces the height of the building. The building will not get taller from those heights. Chase will remain the tallest building in Phoenix. However, South Tower will become the tallest residential building in Phoenix.

That's great you have this "information", and I'm not doubting it. And I think I can speak for everyone that we appreciate any and all tidbits of information, but can you give a source?

It's crazy when these people with no history on the site and no posts come out and give this great "insider" type information... but then give zero sources or tell us nothing about themselves or how they came up with the info. Are things like height or tenents or anything regarding a development such a big freakin secret that someone can't explain a little background information on themselves/their info? If it is a secret, why? And if so, then just say, "speaking on condition of anonimity this is the info I have..."

It's a little hard to believe someone, again, not that I don't believe Urban Rising, when their one or only two posts just blurt out info. It's like if I were to register under an alias then say with my only post "The Chase Building is structurally unsound and will be blown up by a demolition company on November 3rd at 9:15am."

Urban Rising
Sep 17, 2008, 7:39 PM
I worked on both projects. My job is in commercial construction. I unfortunately can't state from what side of commercial construction(Architect, Engineer, Developer, General Contractor, Sub Contractor).

My only intention is to add some factual information to the forum, and hope that adds to the overall excitement that all of the new development will bring to Downtown Phoenix and the surrounding area.

HX_Guy
Sep 17, 2008, 8:27 PM
Thanks for the info Urban Rising, it sounds like you have some inside info and very specific stuff, which is great.

The 417' 3" is right in line with that we had heard previously from Mike Ebert, which said it would be around 415'. Do you have any information on the height of the Wachovia tower? I think we've heard of 375' and 385' before.

Any other information you could share with us?
When will the condo/hotel tower start construction?
Number of residential units?
Is it true it will have 2 tower cranes?
Are these buildings cash concrete or steel frame like the Central Park East building?

Any info on the stuff going on the Patriots Square block?

Luke Skyscraper
Sep 17, 2008, 8:47 PM
Urban Rising,
Thanks for the inside scoop. If you can address the follow up questions by HX Guy- that would be great.

I still do not make sense of the proportions in the new image posted by Davis Group. There is no way the South Tower is only 32 feet taller based on the on new image. In the image, it appears to be at least a third taller than the Wachovia building.........
I believe the stats from Urban Rising, just not the proportions of the images posted......

PHX4EVER
Sep 17, 2008, 8:49 PM
Awesome, thanks. (Now I just have to get a higher res. version...but I'll work on that. :D )

Here is the new rendering, side by side with the old version. They are mostly the same, though the Davis rendering looks a bit more chiseled and looks to maybe have a stainless steel facade on the hotel portion? It also looks shorter, but the floor height is the same so it's more realistic whereas the old renderings made it look much taller then Wachovia and that won't be the case.

http://nitnelav.com/CityscapeDavis.jpghttp://nitnelav.com/CityscapeDavis2.jpg

look at that wells fargo tower on left side.that new hotel looks like 1500' compare to that wells fargo.it looks funny.but would be nice to see that hotel at least 650' or so.....

Urban Rising
Sep 17, 2008, 9:01 PM
North tower should top out at 368' which will make it only slightly shorter than the south tower.

Based on the schedules I have seen to date south tower should start around march and be ready for move-in around the end of 2010 or early 2011.

I unfortunately do not know how many units will be in the building. I haven't seen the drawings in a while.

The Patriots square block is currently in redesign and unfortunately the apartment portion is no longer part of the project. That's not to say it won't come back through further design changes. The source for this works at RED and was giving a project update at an industry meeting. Weitz will continue to work on the underground portions, until the project is ready to proceed.

HX_Guy
Sep 17, 2008, 9:11 PM
Wow, that's a shocker about the Patriot's block. So basically, it's "on hold" right now? And no apartments? I really hope this does not turn into another Arizona Center.

About the height, 368' and 417'...I wouldn't call it "slightly shorter", that's a pretty big height difference. I'm still pretty surprised that RED didn't have the vision to build a new tallest. I understand it's very expensive...but they could have gotten creative, all they needed was another 70' which could have been 3-4 more floors and a 30' or so crown on top.

Hysonk
Sep 17, 2008, 9:58 PM
I'm excited to learn that the second tower is scheduled to begin (fingers crossed) in March. That's a lot better than what we were hearing that it wasn't ever going to get done. Hopefully the Patriot's Park redesign is better than the one proposed. I was never a big fan of the design, perhaps a more striking entrance to Cityscape is in order. Overall, good news and thanks for all the new info.

Vicelord John
Sep 17, 2008, 9:59 PM
how long ago did i say this is collier center #2??

Classical in Phoenix
Sep 17, 2008, 10:50 PM
With the shape of the financial markets right now, I am real concerned about any building that is not coming out of the ground yet. I think money for development is going to be very hard to get for a while.

HX_Guy
Sep 17, 2008, 10:59 PM
Very true. We've heard that RED recently got $250M which they will use part of for Cityscape, so that is good, but you're right...anything that gets built in this market we should be thankful for.

Also, just because construction starts on a tower, does not mean it will finish. Look at Elevation Chandler here in the valley and also there is a tower going up in Chicago that has stopped construction somewhere around the 15th floor. I believe the Chicago Spire is also on hold even though they already started the foundation work.

CANUC
Sep 17, 2008, 11:59 PM
North tower should top out at 368' which will make it only slightly shorter than the south tower.

Based on the schedules I have seen to date south tower should start around march and be ready for move-in around the end of 2010 or early 2011.

I unfortunately do not know how many units will be in the building. I haven't seen the drawings in a while.

The Patriots square block is currently in redesign and unfortunately the apartment portion is no longer part of the project. That's not to say it won't come back through further design changes. The source for this works at RED and was giving a project update at an industry meeting. Weitz will continue to work on the underground portions, until the project is ready to proceed.

Hold on, hold on. I’m calling shenanigans on this guy. How is that the Wachovia tower with more floors than the BofA building and roughly the same number of floors as OCPE will be shorter then even 44 Monroe? Now he comes on here and claims PSP is on hold and is re-designed and no apartments blah, blah, blah. I’ll believe it when I see it.

HX_Guy
Sep 18, 2008, 12:30 AM
A) Why would the guy lie?

B) The numbers are in line with that we have heard from reps at RED.

HX_Guy
Sep 18, 2008, 12:58 AM
Thanks to Loveithigh, who mailed me a copy of AZRE Magazine, here is a high res. of the new Cityscape hotel/condo tower.

It looks to be a bit more "value engineered" as Combusean put it...let glass, not as flashy. It's sort of disappointing compared to the original, looks sort of office tower-ish, especially the hotel portion.

http://nitnelav.com/DavisCityscapeBig2.jpg

Here is a link to the original design:

http://nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/cityscapenew3.jpg

PHX31
Sep 18, 2008, 2:30 AM
The hotel portion looks exactly like that Hilton hotel at the base of the Qwest Tower on Thomas Rd... only a different color.

I'm very happy something is being built there, but I'm definitely disappointed in CityScape...

PHX4EVER
Sep 18, 2008, 2:48 AM
I can't see what kind of steakhouse is that?

HX_Guy
Sep 18, 2008, 3:53 AM
It seems to say "Johnathan's Steakhouse" but it may just be a generic name.

ljbuild
Sep 18, 2008, 3:56 AM
I can't see what kind of steakhouse is that?

I cant wait to "EAT IN IT" !:drunk:

PhxPavilion
Sep 18, 2008, 9:00 AM
Hold on, hold on. I’m calling shenanigans on this guy. How is that the Wachovia tower with more floors than the BofA building and roughly the same number of floors as OCPE will be shorter then even 44 Monroe? Now he comes on here and claims PSP is on hold and is re-designed and no apartments blah, blah, blah. I’ll believe it when I see it.

The BofA tower is 23 floors at 360', the Wachovia tower was originally going to be 26 floors, what about 368' sounds so absurd? If you calculate the height of each floor at those numbers the BofA's is about 15' 5" per floor and Wachovia's would be about 14' per floor assuming it's still 26 floors.

plinko
Sep 18, 2008, 4:27 PM
Just curious, is the 368' to the roof or to the top of the parapet? If it's to the roof then the parapet would be about 385'? Just a clarification.

I know the City of Phoenix only counts to roof height (or at least that's how it used to be).

Shameful to hear about the PSP block. Isn't that where PF Chang's and AJ's were supposed to go? I don't remember.

CANUC
Sep 18, 2008, 4:28 PM
The BofA tower is 23 floors at 360', the Wachovia tower was originally going to be 26 floors, what about 368' sounds so absurd? If you calculate the height of each floor at those numbers the BofA's is about 15' 5" per floor and Wachovia's would be about 14' per floor assuming it's still 26 floors.

First I’m not doubting the height of the condo/hotel tower as it may never even get built my skepticism was with his information on the Wachovia tower. Yes to me it does sound absurd. First you can’t calculate the numbers the way you did. I’m pretty sure the BofA building does not have 15 foot tall ceilings. It’s the height of the lobby in conjunction with the rest of the floors. Still when you compare it to more recently built office towers the numbers don’t make sense. BofA at 23 stories is 360’, the Sheraton with shorter hotel floors is 31 floors at 360’ and the under construction OCPE is 26 stories at just over 380’ with ten of those floors built with shorter garage heights. If you are going to build a Class-A office tower I doubt you’d build it with floor heights proportional to a hotel. So for me once I doubted his info on the Wachovia tower the rest of his info IMO is suspect.

gymratmanaz
Sep 18, 2008, 4:49 PM
At least there is rebar above ground level sticking up out of the hole. It is coming along well....whatever it will be...it is at least happening.

Urban Rising
Sep 18, 2008, 4:53 PM
I hate to correct your facts, however OCPE is only 341'-8" in height to the top of structure. You are correct in the building is 26 stories. Additionally both structures (OCPE & Wachovia) include a crown at the top of the building that covers the mechanical equipment. OCPE for example caps out at 320' for the office structure and then continues to its final height including the mechanical screen. The average floor height on OCPE is 13'-3" at the office levels.

Regardless of whether you question the facts. Both buildings will be stunning additions to the Phoenix skyline.

HX_Guy
Sep 18, 2008, 5:33 PM
Wow, that seems awfully short for One Central Park East. I remember a article in the paper a while back that pegged it at 383', which is where we had been getting our number from.

It does seem a bit off, especially when you compare it to other recent high-rises such as BofA at 23 floors/360' and Phelps Dodge at 20 floors/289'.

DER-XE
Sep 18, 2008, 7:04 PM
Hi all, i am new to this so i will try and keep up and i do have a little insite, which btw is not to diff to get, RED has many local leasing people that have had many many mtgs with local, regional and national tenants and there is a ton of very updated info that can be had on a daily basis........we should expect new retail and restaurant tenant anoun soon, including a major loc restaurant doing a steak/chop house, a large drug store and major soft good urban retail tenants.......park has not slowed to much but has lost apartments, they may not have worked financially, 60 units makes for high rent costs.....AJ's is now one story and half the size........so they went back to drawingboard to re-layout some new 2nd level spaces they have, will most likely be entertainment uses.....but park will look the same from a "layout" of buildings standpoint and can catch up quick as it is only 2 stories and can be build with bricks and sticks.........its exciting to see and hear all the progerss and interest in the project, it has the chance to be very cool

Vicelord John
Sep 18, 2008, 7:18 PM
so let me get this straight, they are going to build 2 story buildings on one of the 4 center blocks of the city?... Shame.

DER-XE
Sep 18, 2008, 7:20 PM
park can only support up to 6 stories because of crappie underground garage, rt now buildings are 2 stories

HX_Guy
Sep 18, 2008, 7:37 PM
Everything just sounds more and more scaled down...I can't believe the AJs will be half the size, it was already something like half the size of a normal sized AJs, now it will basically be 1/4 the size of one.

I don't even know how I feel about it. On one side, it completely sucks that the bare minimum is being built, but on the other side, with the way things are going economically and such, it's amazing that anything is being built at all.

DER-XE
Sep 18, 2008, 7:57 PM
that may have sounded wrong........half the size of the 2 story original.......so 10000sf v. 20000sf.........and only one story..........i think anything is better than nothing, in mast cases

CANUC
Sep 18, 2008, 9:01 PM
I hate to correct your facts, however OCPE is only 341'-8" in height to the top of structure. You are correct in the building is 26 stories. Additionally both structures (OCPE & Wachovia) include a crown at the top of the building that covers the mechanical equipment. OCPE for example caps out at 320' for the office structure and then continues to its final height including the mechanical screen. The average floor height on OCPE is 13'-3" at the office levels.

Regardless of whether you question the facts. Both buildings will be stunning additions to the Phoenix skyline.

I would take your information more seriously if you could just cite some of your sources e.g. permits, press releases, advertisements, industry newsletters etc. My reason for continued skepticism; you have stated in a very specific, down to inches, the heights of three buildings many on this forum have been watching closely. Yet most have been unable to secure the very figures you provided with the exception of OCPE which you know have stated is incorrect. My points:
• BofA is 23 floors at 360’ and comparable in height to other recently completed office buildings. From this it is reasonable to calculate the height of future office building such as the Wachovia tower.
• You claim OCPE is actually topping out at 320’ and reaches 341’-8” to the top of the mechanical screen. However FAA permits showed the tower crane reaching 440’ and when compared to 44 Monroe the tower crane only reached 438’ yet 44 Monroe reached 378’ in height. Why would they need so much clearance for the tower crane if the building itself is a full 100 feet shorter?
• Sources? I understand you state you cannot for whatever reason divulge your position but seeing as to how you have made some pretty tantalizing statements and understanding this is an anonymous forum with faceless members I don’t see the risk in directing others to your source of information or providing something more tangible than simply saying “I’m right your wrong”?

AZ KID
Sep 18, 2008, 10:25 PM
I find it incredibly hard to believe that OCPE will only be 341' feet. Although after looking at many pictures and comparing what has been built to what is going to be built it looks like it might not reach 385 or whatever the original thought was.

plinko
Sep 18, 2008, 11:13 PM
Interesting. I think we'd all taken the 383' figure for OCPE because that was all we had.

BUT, for those of you who don't like math:
9 parking floors at 10'-6" + 17 office floors at 13'-3" + 21'-8" for mechanical screen = 341'-8"

Disappointing that it is that short. It's still a lovely building. I thought it had higher than normal (like 15') floor to floor heights because they were going for LEED certification. I'm likely wrong about that.

Urban Rising, can you do a similar breakdown for the two Citiscape towers?

Methinks you work for one of the exterior or structural subcontractors on the job. You don't have to say, but thanks so much for the great info. Most of the press people (and realtors and developer people) tend to not pay attention to those details so much. That and they get a number from an early scheme and that's the number that gets repeated and repeated and repeated, despite the fact that it is wrong.

CANUC, if you don't believe him, take yourself down to the city Building Department and ask for permit information. It's public record and both are current projects so it should be no problem.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a sidenote, building two story buildings on the datum block of the city is f*cking travesty. What a waste. A 10,000sf AJ's? That's tiny! Entertainment uses? The Arizona Center and Collier Center already have enough of that crap. Yea! Another meat market club with uber sushi and $12 beers!

Vicelord John
Sep 18, 2008, 11:53 PM
Yea! Another meat market club with uber sushi and $12 beers!

I'd be fine with that as it is something we actually do not have as of now.

kevininlb
Sep 19, 2008, 2:08 PM
that may have sounded wrong........half the size of the 2 story original.......so 10000sf v. 20000sf.........and only one story..........i think anything is better than nothing, in mast cases

The average Fresh & Easy is about 10000 square feet, so this doesn't sound bad and actually makes a lot of sense.

RichTempe
Sep 19, 2008, 7:51 PM
The average Fresh & Easy is about 10000 square feet, so this doesn't sound bad and actually makes a lot of sense.

All things considered, I'd rather it was a Fresh & Easy instead of AJ's in the first place.:(

neworleans
Sep 19, 2008, 8:40 PM
All things considered, I'd rather it was a Fresh & Easy instead of AJ's in the first place.:(

AJ's is more well known though

PHX NATIVE 929
Sep 19, 2008, 10:06 PM
AJ's is more well known though

Huh? In Phoenix maybe. Tesco is a wee bit bigger than Bashas...

HX_Guy
Sep 20, 2008, 3:00 PM
http://nitnelav.com/DTSept192008/1.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTSept192008/2.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTSept192008/3.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTSept192008/4.jpg

http://nitnelav.com/DTSept192008/5.jpg

KEVINphx
Sep 20, 2008, 4:07 PM
Huh? In Phoenix maybe. Tesco is a wee bit bigger than Bashas...


And what city is this project in again? I personally think AJ's is a great choice, nice to have local representation in our own downtown.

andrewkfromaz
Sep 22, 2008, 10:54 PM
How do you delete posts? I didn't realize I wasn't at the end of the thread yet...