[Vicelord John]

I think its kind of useless. Especially if they dont build the other tower i just dont see the point in it because every part of the building has first floor entrances. The entrances off the mesa appear to go to the same places. Example, if you go in the main entrance of the building off washington, there is an escalator to the second floor. Guess where that escalator goes... You guessed it, the mesa as well as a bank of elevators that just happen to be the same ones you cN access from the first floor. Unless they are planning on doing somwthing with it using the other tower, its stupid.

[HX_Guy]

I thought the same thing...the whole area struck me as a "break area" for the office workers. I don't see why everyday people would go up there unless some of the retail spots on the south end of the block will have entrances up there, which they probably will, and it will be really lame...kind of like Colliers and the Kincaids entrance, it would be so much better if it was actually off the street and added to the street life/feel.

[Vicelord John]

glad we agree. I was up there for an hour fucking around walked on the bridge and all. Really at this point I only see that thing useful to walk in the main entrance of the building, go up the escalator and access the second floor establishments across the street.

That's gay.

[HooverDam]

This motherfucker was asking to become fully paralyzed or something. He was going backward....
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_3369.jpg

I've seen that guy before. He used to (maybe still does?) sit outside of Majerles and bark like a dog at this hostess gal I would try to be chatting up. A real winner.

Also, re: the mesa, I believe the Gold Gym entrance will be off the mesa. Thats the impression I got from a Golds Worker who was walking around the site showing it to who I assume is a new hire, though perhaps I misunderstood and there will be a ground floor entrance too.

[HX_Guy]

There is definitely a ground floor entrance off of Central & Washington.

[gymratmanaz]

Are those water valves in the middle of the picture above? I know there are or is a water feature on that side, like dancing waters. Are these valves for that and will that whole center are have a raised surface?

[glynnjamin]

There is definitely a ground floor entrance off of Central & Washington.

There is no entrance to Golds from the first floor. The gym occupies the second and third floors of the complex. You can get to the gym from the first floor (much like everything else) but the gym's entrance will be just off the skybridge.

[gymratmanaz]

What is on the first floor then?

[HX_Guy]

There is no entrance to Golds from the first floor. The gym occupies the second and third floors of the complex. You can get to the gym from the first floor (much like everything else) but the gym's entrance will be just off the skybridge.

Wow really? I didn't know that. So what will be on the 1st floor?

[glynnjamin]

Your guess is as good as mine. I'd say the Press coffee place would fit in there. If you go over to CityScape, you can actually see the gym equipment being installed. Everything was in boxes yesterday.

[gymratmanaz]

I saw those boxes too.

The street level floor has two pads. There is one big one, we assumed was Gold's entrance, and a smaller one, south of it.Wasn't there going to be a restaurant called the Tilted Kilt or something. Would it go there? I thought the coffee shop was on the ground level under tower #1.

[Vicelord John]

Tilted kilt os generally a large place. Has to hold lots of tits.

[gymratmanaz]

Your kind a place!!!! :)

By the way, mind not using the "That's Gay" kinda comment you used a little while ago? Would appreciate it. Thanks.

[Vicelord John]

sure... sorry about that.

[gymratmanaz]

Aprreciate it. Good man!

John, I might head downtown tonight after the gym to look around. You up for joining? Kinda want to see the lighting thing shining from Golds across the street to see what it might end up being.

[Vicelord John]

I may be. I have a house guest right now but who knows.

[gymratmanaz]

Might head down about 7:15 or so for a bit.

[PHX31]

gym, do you go to the Y? i go in the afternoons/evenings after work. It'd be funny if I saw you there every day but never new it was you.

[gymratmanaz]

I don't . I go to both 24 hour and also Chiseled.

[Leo the Dog]

I don't . I go to both 24 hour and also Chiseled.

Ever heard of Cross Fit? Its basically a "garage" gym. Very limited machines, small spaces, but they kick your ass. No rest between sets, running, pull-ups etc. Its kind of a new movement/trend, getting popular in Southern Cal and now Phx.

There's a location on 7th St.

[renone]

Did we already know about this place? Not sure I did.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2010/03/29/20100329dine-cityscape-sushi0330.html

[HX_Guy]

That is new....very cool!

[Vicelord John]

all of the major players are coming to cityscape because it helps them to group together. it's going to be a pretty busy place especially at first when there is a lot of hype.

[gymratmanaz]

Maybe we need a nightly group to go to them all? I wonder if they all will open together or one by one?...Also wondering locations. Above all, gots to have that hotel!!!!!

[glynnjamin]

I'd group together too if I got 3 years of free rent. I can't even get 1 month free rent in Luhrs.

[phxbyrd]

I think RED is happy to get any tennants it can signed to binding leases (of course it's bound too) and DT is starved for many of these establisments. However, most of them seemed better suited for the Jackson Street project which didn't have the same city support as CityScape. They may be successfull because as of this moment there is no JSED, but the demographic of CS was intended and should rightly be different. It's envisioned to serve a daytime business crowd, night time business entertaining and traveler crowd and weekend older, family outings hoping for something safer less bohemian than Jackson st. promised. Just consider before a game or concert the luxury suite people go to CS while the upper deck people go to JSED. Residents at CS would be sesonal, retired or work in the complex while residents of JS would be artists, young graduates and DT service employees.

CS should have an Apple store, H&M, Nike Town and Body Shop while JS has Lucky Strike, the comedy club, Vinyl Record stores and Urban Outfiters, Cheba Hut.......

[Vicelord John]

I want there to be a nike town there :(

My collection of Nike basketball shoes is outgrowing what is available in Phoenix and I find myself having to order from the Beverly Hills niketown a lot.

[glynnjamin]

Ha, Nike Town. I was in Seattle when we trashed that one. LOL. Can't go by one without thinking about the WTO riots.

JSED is dead. It's not going to happen. It's just not. In reality, Jackson Street was never going to "happen" without fixing Washington Street and then Jefferson Street. We have to goad people into downtown with a carrot on a string. Sporting events don't count because such a large number of people park in the garages that are all right next door to the stadiums. They go from A to C without having to pass through B. We got people down to Roosevelt with First Fridays. Then we got them down to McKinley with the Farmer's Market. Then we got them to Fillmore with ASU. After that, we got them down to Monroe with the Convention Center and then paraded them past all the nice new renovations inside the safety of the light rail. Now we must give them a reason to experience Washington and Jefferson streets in an outdoor environment. Once droves of people are hanging out at CityScape, it may then be time to entice them to Jackson Street. As I've always said about the JSED project, the lack of visibility from the LRT would hinder its ability to be successful. If you can create flocks of people who actually walk around downtown (even if it is just from Chase Field to CityScape) then those people will eventually find their way to Jackson. It is then that the development of a something more organic than JSED will begin to flourish.

The collapse of the market has been great for small time investors who wanted to put something cool along Jackson but were priced out by speculators and by the JSED developers. Now that the bank is holding the properties, people like us can get our hands on these properties and really make them into something amazing. The natural development of Jackson will be much better than the forced suburbanization of one of the most historic areas of town. Look at The Duce and tell me that JSED would have ever provided something like that.

[HooverDam]

Ha, Nike Town. I was in Seattle when we trashed that one. LOL. Can't go by one without thinking about the WTO riots.

Please don't ever try that here, as one of the great thinkers of our time said, "We don't riot in Phoenix, we're civilized in Phoenix."

[Leo the Dog]

Ha, Nike Town. I was in Seattle when we trashed that one. LOL. Can't go by one without thinking about the WTO riots.

You were one of those idiots?

[glynnjamin]

I was part of the protest ... not part of the destruction. I did get shot with a few rubber bullets though.

[phxbyrd]

First of all, I'm sure JSED was going to be better than the Duece. There's a good reason why the Duece died not the least of which being it was named after a turd. It was dangerous; the owner of Sing High was shot just standing in the doorway after service.

If JSED isn't going to happen then so be it, nothing I say can change that. With that being said I disagree with some of your premise. I don't think something has to be visable from the LR, only walkable. Also I don't think DT has to have a top to bottom, north to south development structure. There's no reason why developing Jackson st would help Madison St, Jefferson St and points south as well. The detailed site plans and renderings I saw didn't make JSED seem suburban at all. In comparison CS will end up much more Desert Ridge like than JS ever would have. This city is dying for a third night life option besides the established two in Scottsdale and Tempe. This is seriously a case of if you build it they will come. The 18-35 demographic wants to go out thurs-sun and holidays and young conventioners want to go out every night.

Now if you look at old town you know that bars and clubs alone don't make a good neighborhood or district. You need people to live there, offices to rent there and daytime shops to locate there. Some pieces were in place after Chase opened and others were ready to go into place (W) when the economy tanked. Hopefully they can get back on track there or DT will never be what we want it to be.

[HX_Guy]

First of all, I'm sure JSED was going to be better than the Duece. There's a good reason why the Duece died not the least of which being it was named after a turd. It was dangerous; the owner of Sing High was shot just standing in the doorway after service.

He wasn't talking about the Deuce...he was talking about the Duce, the store that opened up on Central and Lincoln.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/bestof/2009/award/best-retail-vision-1454249/

[glynnjamin]

Thanks HX....I thought I was being clear when I called it The Duce and was talking about positive organic development that happens without the need of a massive corporation laying everything out. Guess someone had their mind made up when they started reading and didn't bother to pay attention

[Vicelord John]

There are a lot of really dense people on this board, Glenn.

I can't tell you how many times I've mentioned something clearly, and someone gets off on a tangent about something unrelated that they mistook it for.

[phxbyrd]

Oh you mean the store named after the neighborhood in the same area we are talking about? Why would I ever have gotten those two mixed up?:shrug:

[Vicelord John]

they are spelled differently.

Reading comprehension, FTW.

[phxbyrd]

this is an internet board, not the bar exam (sorry Don).

[Vicelord John]

I practice my reading comprehension skills in all aspects of life.

I try not to become dumber just by clicking onto the interwebs.

[gymratmanaz]

Rif

[mwadswor]

I practice my reading comprehension skills in all aspects of life.

I try not to become dumber just by clicking onto the interwebs.

:tup: :superwhip

[PhxPavilion]

I practice my reading comprehension skills in all aspects of life.

I try not to become dumber just by clicking onto the interwebs.

Except the internets is full of bad grammar and spelling too, not to mention the fact that language can be interpreted any number of ways.

[Vicelord John]

Cityscape needs to provide us with a new update so we have something relevant to talk about. I'm getting a presentation by their marketing company on 4.21.10, though I'm sure they will feed me a few lines of bullshit.

[phxbyrd]

Hope you aren't too burnt out from the day before.

[Vicelord John]

huh? whats the day before?

[Tito714]

4-20.

[Vicelord John]

Oh ya the day every loser in the world becomes completely dysfunctional.

[Leo the Dog]

I was part of the protest ... not part of the destruction. I did get shot with a few rubber bullets though.

Gotcha. I understand and support peaceful protests (no matter what it may be about it is a Constitutional right), but I'll never understand/support why people think its ok to destroy someone else's property and/or get violent. What good does that do? It actually de-legitimizes their cause.

[glynnjamin]

There were people there just looking to start shit. There were also cops there who were just looking to crack some heads. It was a pretty ugly situation. Greg Nichols handled it poorly but, FWIW, the riots did shut down the WTO meetings and stopped some of the progress that they had made. I could make an argument that the violent protest had more impact than the subsequent peaceful ones. Of course, now you can't get within 5 miles of any WTO conference.

[gymratmanaz]

*Wood framing is up and I bet they will pour cement tomorrow.

*Mesa stone triangle actually holds about 2 feet of water a workman told me. Not sure if it is temporarilly filled with an inch deep of gravel or what? Hoping it is another water feature.

*They are working hard on the east side stair water feature. Looking cooler each day.

*They are starting to add the braces for the canopy over the east side escalator.

*I can't tell what yet, but they seem to be water sealing some of the central courtyard on the SPS side. Fountain? Raised dancing waters? Something wet, cause there are 2 or 3 water spigots with rebar around them.....?

*Metal edges are going up on the top of the facade, same as what is around the top of Golds Gym.

*More landscaping must be coming or changing, the landscape guy was walking around unpleased about a dilivery being worng or late.

*More grey metal work on the facades shown now that they are peeling away the paper coating.

*More windows and more awning support tabs installed.

*Pedestrian bridge has vertical metal supports crossing the span for whatever covering to come.

*In general, lots of people downtown on the streets between 9:00 and 11:00. Busy and fun!!!

[Vicelord John]

Didn't we talk about this months ago?


Phoenix's CityScape project plans to open comedy club
3 commentsby Jahna Berry - Apr. 1, 2010 03:06 PM
The Arizona Republic
CityScape is getting into the funny business.

The businessman who helped bring nationally-known comedy acts to Tempe Improv plans to open a 17,000 square foot comedy club at CityScape. CityScape is a $900 million cluster of shops, offices and restaurants under construction in downtown Phoenix.


The 600-seat comedy venue, which will be called Stand Up Live, will sit at Jefferson Street and First Avenue. Stand Up Live will also have a martini bar, restaurant and free parking, officials say.

The comedy club could open as early as this September, but construction issues may postpone the opening until later this year, said Dan Mer, co-owner and general manager of Stand Up Live.

"Downtown Phoenix generally, and CityScape specifically, will give us the firepower to attract the best of the best stand-up comedy and establish Phoenix as the nation's comedy capital," Mer said.

Mer was general manager, booker and co-owner of the venerable Tempe Improv for 14 years. Mer sold his shares and parted ways with the club about nine months ago, he said.

At the Improv, Mer helped bring in big names including John Stewart, Adam Sandler, D.L. Hughley and Dana Carvey.

Stand Up Live will also draw comedy stars, Mer said.

"They will see the absolute best. Since we will be a larger facility, there will be even bigger names than we could have booked at the Improv, because of the size," he said.

The new comedy spot will have a supper club feel, with leather booths and high quality food, Mer says. The martini bar will give patrons a place to relax before shows and it will feature live music. The club will also have an in-house studio to it can television produce specials, Mer added.

The Tempe Improv will stay open, a spokeswoman said.

"The Improv will continue," said Susan Desislets, said noting the Valley institution has been around for more than two decades. Mer was a minor owner, she added.

CityScape is a three-block development bordered by First Avenue, Second Street, Washington Street and Jefferson Street.

Stand Up Live will be on the second floor of a CityScape building that will also house Oakville Grocery Co. The comedy club will be next door to Lucky Strike Lanes & Lounge bowling alley, said CityScape spokesman Jay Thorne.

An official grand opening for CityScape is planned for the fall.

[Evil Empire]

^^^ And written by your absolute favorite columnist, John.

[Vicelord John]

^^^ And written by your absolute favorite columnist, John.

yup. Read the comments section of the article on AZCentral. I already said something.

[gymratmanaz]

Yes we did, but it is alwasy good to hear more confirmations!!!

Looking forward to checking it out. Will be cool to have such a place!

[PHX31]

"Downtown Phoenix generally, and CityScape specifically, will give us the firepower to attract the best of the best stand-up comedy and establish Phoenix as the nation's comedy capital," Mer said.



This is good news. But is there any real reason for such hyperbole by the developers/owners? Who in the world would believe a single club could establish that?

[Leo the Dog]

Stand Up Live will also have a martini bar, restaurant and free parking, officials say.

Does this mean that Oakville Grocery will provide free parking too? They absolutely have to in order to have a chance at surviving with a resident free CS.

[Vicelord John]

Does this mean that Oakville Grocery will provide free parking too? They absolutely have to in order to have a chance at surviving with a resident free CS.

I thought that was one of those "no shit sherlock" kind of things. Of course every vendor in the plaza will offer validated parking. Just like Colliers, AZ Center, every office tower, and yeah...

[gymratmanaz]

So John, you are having a private marketing meeting with RED?

[Vicelord John]

yes, stay tuned.

[gymratmanaz]

Well aren't you special!!!!!! :)

[Vicelord John]

I don't know if I'm special, but they think I can make them money so yeah.

[HooverDam]

This is good news. But is there any real reason for such hyperbole by the developers/owners? Who in the world would believe a single club could establish that?

That is indeed a ridiculous statement. Once this place opens, there will be 3 full time pro comedy clubs in the Valley (this one, the Comedy Spot in Scottsdale and the Tempe Improv) plus Stand Up Sangria in Glendale/NW Phoenix which is also a night club, and bars around town that do comedy nights. Still with all that, Phoenix is very far from being the comedy capitol even of this region. Denver apparently has a good comedy scene as does Austin (though I suppose thats a different region). NYC, Chicago and LA will always be the 3 major centers for obvious reasons.

[gymratmanaz]

How do they figure you can make them money? What magic do you possess?

[Vicelord John]

I market destinations and attractions to out of town tourists

[gymratmanaz]

Pump em for they they know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PhxPavilion]

Give em hell John.

[gymratmanaz]

I was checking out the courtyard, and it sure looks like they are adding lots of dancing water fountain equipment. It looks like there will be several areas of ground fountains. There are a lot of pipes in lines and a couple circles. I am guessing they will be floating a raised ground level, so the whole centrer of the courtyard will be raised with gradual steps leading up to the foutain level. Anyone else have guesses or knowledge?

They seem to be waqiting till they get the other half of the second level laid before they put floor rebar and all and then float the cement before going up. They will need to also do the next level of rebar columns.

[Tfom]

Just for fun they should have one jet of the dancing water fountain shoot out at 33 degrees. The hours of fun I would have seeing someone take an unexpected shot to the genitals on a 110 degree day would make this my new favorite place in Phoenix.

[gymratmanaz]

or dancing waters that were positioned on a bench and only went off from time to time....ah the dangers of sitting and not looking where... LOL

[kaneui]

Although probably not for all you Talton haters, Jon does an analysis on the hopes and prospects for CityScape's success:


http://roguecolumnist.typepad.com/rogue_columnist/2010/04/the-cityscape-gamble.html#more

[combusean]

Wow. I tried not to dignify the article with comments, yet here I am.

It's the exact same Talton rehash of misery along with a bunch of red herrings and facts that he just got plain wrong.

- 20,000 WF employees in chandler? My ass. Try 7,000 back-office consolidated barely salaried employees that would have no business downtown.

- He actually bitches about the FAA? Really?

- The Biomedical campus is on schedule, and he ignores the latest $190 million addition.

- The State has nothing to do with preventing ASU from downtown.

- "The exodus of private-sector jobs and investment from the core over the past decade or more." Bullshit.

- "And downtown Phoenix doesn't really need more restaurants — watch who closes elsewhere in the core if the new ones open at CityScape — it needs other things." Fuck him. Restaurants and bars is why people are going downtown. More office towers won't accomplish that.

- "City Hall has been particularly hostile to the organic development of small business downtown, putting up countless barriers to historic reuse or tearing down so much " This was the case recently, but not now. We have some of the most flexible adaptive reuse regulations anywhere now.

- "that it's a hike through the desert of blight to get from Roosevelt Row to the downtown core (you can now take light rail, thank goodness)." All of a half mile. Who seriously entertains this whining?

Talton is, in the words of maddox, a big blubbering vagina.

The comments are full of real winners too:


"Mesa, Chandler, Gilbert and Tempe have all ramped up "shop local" campaigns in recent months, aimed at convincing residents to make taxable purchases within city limits."

Phoenix is missing from that list. Note, however, that the operative phrase is "big-ticket items". What big ticket items does downtown Phoenix have that central or downtown Scottsdale does not? For that matter, what does downtown Phoenix have in terms of art galleries, restaurants, or anything else that comparable portions of Scottsdale don't do better?


Idiots.

[Leo the Dog]

I actually think that Jon Talton always brings up great points. We all talk about everything he talks about. We have all heavily criticized the design and end product of CS (no residential units, inward facing retail, bland tower design, Collier Center 2, another AZ Center etc.) He being a native of Central Phoenix and has personally experienced the decimation of the CBD gives him credibility.

After all, look at what all of this "planning" has left us with: a bombed out core.

[CANUC]

The point is that despite all the positive that has occurred in downtown recently people like Talton, and Soleri sound like a perpetual whiners. Yes we talk about the negative aspects of Cityscape but there isn’t anyone on this forum who has seen the changes of downtown over the past decade that don’t also acknowledge the positives. This is where these people fail. I mean really? He’s complaining about downtown adding more restaurants? WTF? You know why because it contradicts his real desire to keep DT as his soapbox. These people are staunch bitches.

[glynnjamin]

He has a point about the organic nature of development, though. I mean, it is the same argument I was making on the JSED board about how the market forces might actually allow individuals to turn Jackson Street into something usable that fits the market instead of something static that a developer will push on the market. Given the fact that we do now have some of the most liberal adaptive reuse restrictions in the country, the area of Jackson could be so much greater than a mini times square. The real argument with Talton comes if you believe that people WANT organic or if they want corporate. While those of us who give a damn want one thing, the populous of Phoenix proper seems to favor corporate. Just look at the AZ Central Best Of... nominations. Every category has at least one chain in it and (not surprisingly) the chain is usually winning. Until someone in the suburbs knows what Matt's Big Breakfast, Trunk Space, Bunky, or Cartel Coffee are, they are always going to think there is "nothing" downtown...because they don't see Cheesecake Factory, The Gap, and Dillards down here. Building this city the way that Talton (or many of us on this board) would like to see it built would take 100 years and for hundreds of different pieces to fall into place. Bringing in developers helps to speed that process along...unfortunately, we sell our soul for the price of progress.

[Don B.]

Wow, let the evisceration begin of anyone who dare criticize downtown Phoenix. Talton is a big blubbering vagina? There's some rational discourse. As I've said many times before:

Are we making progress? Yes.

Is downtown Phoenix better than when I moved here in 1993? Yes.

Is it still a piece of shit compared to cities like San Diego, Las Vegas or Denver? Yes.

I said this when I first visited downtown San Diego way back in 2004, on this very forum. Downtown Phoenix is exceptionally pathetic, especially for a city of Phoenix's size. San Diego is absolutely hopping compared to Phoenix, even though her metro area is fully 30% smaller than Phoenix (3 million compared to our 4.3 million). I mean, fucking Oklahoma City, which is about the size of Mesa, is building a 57-story, 850-foot signature headquarters tower (Devon Energy Tower) in their downtown. What do we get? Ohhh...a 27-story suburban office park building, surrounded by acres of hardscape. We can't even break the 40-story barrier here, and I've NEVER seen so many vacant lots around a downtown than in Phoenix. Heck, in Kansas City, which suffered horrendous white-flight between 1950 and 2000 (the central city population dropped from 450,000 to 180,000 during that time), there are very few vacant lots near downtown, along with ten skyscrapers taller than Chase Tower's measly 483 feet. Calgary with only one million people in her entire metro area, has five times as many skyscrapers, with several well over 700 feet tall.

Talton makes some really good points. If downtown Scottsdale, Glendale and Tempe were in our downtown area, along with uptown along Central Avenue and the Biltmore, then we would have a pretty decent downtown. But, alas, that isn't the case, and Phoenix over the decades has made disastrous decisions to decentralize this city.

We need to take radical steps to reform downtown Phoenix. I've lived here for 17 years now and I'm still waiting. Many of you who will attack me were practically still in diapers when I moved here. I suspect I'll be an old man before downtown Phoenix ever gets great, which right now is looking like a distant desert mirage more than ever.

--don

[phxbyrd]

I was going to get on Sean myself this morning but I didn't have time. Yeah, Talton may not be the most friendly guy in the world but that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. The number one thing I agree with is the biomedical medical campus. It's both way behind schedule but is far underdelivering. It should be twice as dense as they planning and there should already be private companies moving into their own offices outside of the property.

Also, his point about the restaurants is that the CS developers places may drive out the independent ones. Which would we rather have?

As far as ASU Dt goes, ABOR has done the wrong thing almost all the time so he's probably right there.

[combusean]

What chain restaurants are going in CityScape that would "drive out independent ones?" This argument is fundamentally not true. The closest thing to a chain is Sam Fox, a local company that would be a welcome addition to downtown. Most others are established chefs opening a second location there.

Ok, "organic development". He mentions the word "organic" once.

The blubbering vagina comment was probably uncalled for, but whatever.

My problem with Talton is not that he's critical of downtown. It's that his criticisms do NOTHING for downtown.

Talton doesn't do anything novel or investigative or profound. Organic development in downtown Phoenix or ABOR's incompetent bumbling or the slow progress of the biomedical complex are fantastic subjects for single articles, but the details are completely ignored in his vapid stream of conscious.

He has no ability to focus the conversation or, god forbid offer specific improvements. This is what I can't stand about Talton. Rather than use his name as a platform for what he believes in, he assumes everyones' disinterest in his griping is the problem.

I never saw his name show up in City Council hearings on issues he talks about. Not once.

Worse, once you wipe away the heaping amounts of myopic bullshit in his articles and things that just aren't true, you end up with a tired argument that everyone on this board has heard before that's also wrong in many parts by itself.

Why would Wells Fargo put 7,000 step above call center workers in a downtown high-rise at four to five times the cost with more time involved? Instead of seeing WF's commitment to an established employment corridor as a regional win, he blasts downtown completely unfairly.

In the end there's just nothing left, and he does no service to downtown.

[HooverDam]

John Taltons articles are to the written word what the Monkeys movie HEAD was to cinema.

I keep trying to get this across to those who defend Talton, its not usually what he says, its how he says it. He's writing is very poor (no surprise, he's a professional ambulance driver, not writer) and aggressive. He just comes across like a cranky old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

[dtnphx]

Don't have much to add except that I am now afraid of vagina's.

[Don B.]

Speaking of trying to make a change by attending council and planning meetings, it was probably when I heard that old bitch whining that skyscrapers were going to (gasp!) make Phoenix hotter that I said fuck this. I knew then that the political process is screwed, because to have my voice heard, we then have to listen to every crackpot, twit and nincompoop that this city has to offer, and I'm sure many people in Phoenix would think the same of my wild ideas, like narrowing streets to widen sidewalks, taxing vacant land at a higher rate to encourage development, and planting more trees and solar panels. Then I decided that my life and my time were more valuable then spending it arguing such inanities with people who live for arguing and whom you will never convince. Arizona is a cheap-assed, low tax state, and that will never change.

Politics is buffoonery at it's finest...no matter what you do or say, a large number of people will hate you for it, and for that I have no time for it. And, given that I have a felony conviction, which affords me no real seat at the table in the political arena, I just went on my merry way.

I also realized as I got older in Phoenix that things will never really change here - too many old people set in their ways run things here. I'm too gay, too liberal, too Democratic to ever be able to make any real change in such a conservative red state. Best to live my own life and say fuck you to the rest of the world than to try and effect change in a place that has no real desire to stop sucking at the twin tits of sprawl and automobiles.

--don

[TAZ4ate0]

I try not to read Talton's rubbish. But then again, when placed in front of me, it's sort of like a train wreck in slow motion, and I just can't look away. It's as if I just have to see what happens next. At the end, I end up rolling my eyes, and think "OK, whatever dude."

[HooverDam]

Don, maybe instead of going to City Council meetings where they give every nutterbutter 3 minutes to talk you should go to more community oriented meetings. Like Downtown Voices, the various neighborhood associations, the City planning divisions visioning conferences, etc. I go to a lot of those and you'll find the vast majority of people who attend those meetings are pro urban, pro walkability, pro density, and pro all the stuff that everyone on this board is all about.

There's a huge community of people who are actively trying to make Central Phoenix a more urban place and want it to be that way, and there's probably an unidentified second and 3rd wave of people out there too who perhaps want more urbanism but either A. don't entirely realize it or B. don't know how to make it happen.

[phxbyrd]

Well some of you sure hate Talton so I ask that people please start posting links who you 1)Think are good writers, 2)Agree with your beliefs, and 3)look like as a person. Bring them forward and I'll judge them fairly.

[HooverDam]

Well some of you sure hate Talton so I ask that people please start posting links who you 1)Think are good writers, 2)Agree with your beliefs, and 3)look like as a person. Bring them forward and I'll judge them fairly.

There's not exactly a ton of professional people out there writing about urbanism/Central Phoenix, so you've create a gerry rigged system up front. But I read the Downtown Phoenix Journal regularly which is quite good, and Downtown Voices Coalitions site is OK but its more like an AP type service that just reposts/links other stories about Central Phoenix.

[azliam]

Well, we're almost finished with March; however, I specifically remember someone saying that the "crown" on CityScape was going to be lit sometime around mid-February. What happened?

Several pages ago, and still no response...does anybody have a clue about this???

[Leo the Dog]

I'll probably get cussed out for saying this, I think CS/DT needs, CHAINS and lots of them. Sounds bad, but there has to be recognition and a draw. In the heart of the commercial district chains should dominate and then on the side streets and neighborhood streets the mom and pop shops, the "organic" shops thrive. Go to any major thriving DT and they are dominated by national chains along the major thoroughfares.

We need McD's, Wendy's, Barnes and Noble, 7-11, Foot Locker, Aldo, Lids, etc...all along a singular linear street. Why not Central Ave? Just think Union Sq. SF or Market St. SF.

[phxbyrd]

there are plenty of chains DT. It's not the city's fault if some of them like Quiznos have left.

[glynnjamin]

Leo, I don't disagree with you, but the fact is that the chains come AFTER, not before. Take Mill Ave as the perfect example. Lots of indie places lots of people and lots of love. Then the national chains see the opportunity to capitalize and they move in now that there is an established customer base.

Sure, most downtowns have chains, but they didn't start out that way.

[TAZ4ate0]

Well, we're almost finished with March; however, I specifically remember someone saying that the "crown" on CityScape was going to be lit sometime around mid-February. What happened?

Several pages ago, and still no response...does anybody have a clue about this???

My bet is that it will be lit when the tower is completed and ready to receive tenants aka sometime around grand opening. :shrug:

Why waste the energy and money when it isn't even occupied yet.

[Vicelord John]

Freeport McMoran has no issue with it...

[glynnjamin]

I've just reverted to calling them R from now on. Since they've had that blue R on the building for about a month now.

[TAZ4ate0]

Freeport McMoran has no issue with it...

So. Maybe they have more money to burn. It is probably just the owner's/developer's discretion as to whether they want the crown lit on the Cityscape tower at this point.

[azliam]

Thanks guys. :)

[dtnphx]

From New Times Blog (Chow Bella):

... On a related note, May will be promoting another of his upcoming restaurant concepts at this weekend's AZ BBQ Festival.

Vitamin T, the Mexican eatery he'll be opening at CityScape in downtown Phoenix, will be at the festival on Saturday serving authentic Sonoran hot dogs, with fresh buns from a bakery in Magdalena, Mexico.

Odd name for a restaurant if you ask me, but hey, still good news nonetheless.

Here's the full link which is mainly about another restaurant he's opening in Scottsdale.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bella/2010/04/chef_aaron_mays_iruna_coming_s.php

[Vicelord John]

Saw that yesterday.

Sonoran hot dog = teh win. Too bad Aaron May will charge $6.95 for it when I can get it at 20/Camelback at a stand for $2. Anyone ever been to El Guero Canelo in Tucson? If you're a UofA graduate, you'll know it. Awesome Sonoran hot dog.

[Locofresh55]

Saw that yesterday.

Sonoran hot dog = teh win. Too bad Aaron May will charge $6.95 for it when I can get it at 20/Camelback at a stand for $2. Anyone ever been to El Guero Canelo in Tucson? If you're a UofA graduate, you'll know it. Awesome Sonoran hot dog.

El Guero Canelo and BK Hot dogs were featured on a travel channel show called, "Food Wars" Apparently, Sonoran Dogs are a Tucson thing (but I'm sure people in Phx will beg to differ. They compared both places and had a blind taste test finale and BK won. I have not had BK hot dogs but I know that EL Guero Canelo hot dogs are the best that I've had in Tucson so IF BK is better, I'll either be pissed at El Guero or pissed at myself for not having gone to BK sooner.

[Vicelord John]

Aghhhhhhhh why did you tell me that i have it tivo'd!!!!

[PHX31]

Yeah, i saw that on "food wars" yesterday or the day before. Something about the mayo is nasty though. I had one in LA without the mayo and it was awesome.

[Locofresh55]

Aghhhhhhhh why did you tell me that i have it tivo'd!!!!

My bad man....I guess I should have put SPOILER ALERT. It is still a good episode though. Check out the crazy white guy in the luchador mask.

[Vicelord John]

they change colors, dance, move, etc. Sorry they are blurry, I left my remote in the car.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_34981.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_34971.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_34961.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d60/haulasshyena/DSC_34951.jpg