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Vicelord John
Oct 17, 2011, 11:57 PM
I'm very confident that he won't fuck it up. He uses Cathy Hayes for a lot of his work, and if she is involved, she will make good use of the space.

HX_Guy
Oct 18, 2011, 1:07 AM
Here you go John, this should make your day. :)

CityScape moving forward despite Oakville problems
Phoenix Business Journal by Lynn Ducey, Reporter
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 5:44pm MST

Despite the change in a CityScape tenant, the downtown mixed use project is continuing to add new stores and programming throughout the holiday season, said Jeff Moloznik.
Moloznik is the development manager for RED Development and General Manager for CityScape.
He declined to speak in detail about the project’s issues with the former operators of Oakville Grocery but said he and other principals are moving forward with plans for the project.
Moloznik said Oakville Grocery continues to operate and now is under the ownership of a partnership between Fox Restaurant Concepts owner and founder Sam Fox and Chloe’s Corner owner Ashly Young. Moloznik declined to discuss the soured relationship between RED and Oakville Grocery and refused to detail the economics of the new relationship with Fox and Young.
“For us, the most important thing was to keep that operation open. And the store itself, from our perspective, was doing well,” Moloznik said.
While Moloznik refused to confirm opening dates for a new Chipotle or a Starbucks that are slated to be in the center, he did confirm a fall concert by REO Speedwagon and an ice skating rink, Moloznik said.
“On Nov. 5, we will close Central down and put the stage in the street. The following day CityScape will be the site for the start and finish of the Phoenix 10k. That had been at the Capitol and we were able to work with the organizers to get it down here,” Moloznik said.
On Nov. 26, CityScape will host its annual holiday tree lighting and open up its ice skating rink.
“We are going to do it (the ice skating rink) again and it will be twice as big as it was last year,” Moloznik said.

gymratmanaz
Oct 18, 2011, 2:00 AM
That is awesome about the rink being twice as big. Can the tree be twice as big at least too??? :)

glynnjamin
Oct 20, 2011, 4:08 PM
So...no more grocery store in downtown? Really? Maybe Target isn't so Pie-In-The-Sky. The new "City Targets" are pretty amazing. Grocery store & pharmacy on the first floor, basic essentials & clothes on the second. Very small footprint. Plus the shopping cart escalators are amazing.

Love Sam Fox. One of the things I really miss about Phoenix is Sam Fox Restaurants. Tom Douglas doesn't hold a candle to Fox and it really sucks for Seattle foodies. Despite my love for him, I think it is a shame that RED is not pursuing Fresh & Easy or IGA for that space. Shopping at Circle K gets old fast.

HX_Guy
Oct 20, 2011, 4:11 PM
Why Circle K? I would think the CVS at Cityscape has a much larger selection.

glynnjamin
Oct 20, 2011, 4:22 PM
Well because if I am going to over pay for a limited selection, I might as well go across the street instead of hauling my ass down to Central & Jefferson. At the end of the day, CVS still doesn't offer anything different from a grocery stand point.

PhxDowntowner
Oct 20, 2011, 5:11 PM
Groceries, especially urban groceries, cannot succeed where there is no residential. Around CityScape, there is no residential. F&E is too smart to put a store there.

The only location with even a glimmer of demographic potential for a grocery is in the Westward Ho or Circles building (~thereabouts).

gymratmanaz
Oct 20, 2011, 5:38 PM
Will be easier when the hotel opens...also when apartments go above.

PhxDowntowner
Oct 20, 2011, 6:08 PM
Will be easier when the hotel opens...also when apartments go above.

Hotels don't support grocery stores, though.

gymratmanaz
Oct 20, 2011, 7:58 PM
They help. I've gone to many in other cities. Plus this one has prepared foods and such. I am not saying a hotel totally supports a grocery, but they sure provide more customers.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 1:55 AM
I'd rather have a Trader Joe's than a F&E or Target. The Phoenix Public Market offers the same, if not more, in terms of groceries than Oakville. Might make more sense to put a grocery store a few blocks north near 44 Monroe and Orpheum Lofts. It would also be much closer to ASU's campus.

nickw252
Oct 21, 2011, 4:01 AM
+1 for Target. It would be way more useful than a Trader Joe's or any other small upscale grocer.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 4:13 AM
Never heard Trader Joe's referred to as upscale. Try finding 2 buck chuck @ AJ's...now AJ's is upscale.

I cringe at big box stores in downtowns. I've been to the downtown Minneapolis Target and it just feels unnatural.

Leo the Dog
Oct 21, 2011, 4:17 PM
Plus the shopping cart escalators are amazing.

The Target in Mission Valley, (1960's suburban area not a DT location) has these, pretty cool!

I think Target would be a good idea. It would attract residents from surrounding neighborhoods outside the 7s to the core. I know I'm willing to drive a farther distance (say up to 5 miles) to go to a Target than a grocery store (1-2 miles).

Leo the Dog
Oct 21, 2011, 4:20 PM
I cringe at big box stores in downtowns. I've been to the downtown Minneapolis Target and it just feels unnatural.

Would you cringe if a Macy's opened up in Downtown?

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 4:27 PM
There already is a Target in the Central City. It is a Super Target at that and directly on the light rail line. There is no need for another big box in the Central City. As for Macy's, it is the Wal-Mart of department stores. I never shop there. Though Macy's would be a huge step up for downtown retail, I would prefer something better that would attract more residents of the posh Central City neighborhoods to downtown rather than the Biltmore or Scottsdale; downtown should steal Bloomingdale's before a suburb (or suburban Phoenix) captures that type of "destination" shopping. And you better believe that even North Snottsdalers would go downtown for Bloomie's, that would be true of Chandlerites, PVers, et al...

HX_Guy
Oct 21, 2011, 4:29 PM
... downtown should steal Bloomingdale's before a suburb (or suburban Phoenix) captures that type of "destination" shopping.

Latest I read is that Bloomingdales (and/or Nordstroms) will be going in at Scottsdale Quarter.

PhxDowntowner
Oct 21, 2011, 4:31 PM
I feel like the parking part of the equation is being neglected here. People won't drive downtown to go to a Target, unless it has an egregious amount of parking that hurts us.

gymratmanaz
Oct 21, 2011, 4:45 PM
There is a ton of parking!!!!!!!!! I go to CVS all the time and get validated, so i park for free. I even park at Cityscape, buy something small I need, and spend 3 free hours. Most Cityscape places validate for some periods of time, but CVS and Stand-Up Live/ Copper Blues is the best 3-hours.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 4:48 PM
Latest I read is that Bloomingdales (and/or Nordstroms) will be going in at Scottsdale Quarter.

It will be a Nordstroms; Bloomies hasn't committed to an Arizona store since the CityNorth debacle...

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 4:50 PM
During the "off season" for sports there is the Garage Mahal and the nicer garages at U.S. Airways Center, Chase Field S. Garage, and the Jefferson Street Garage. I'm leaving out the garages in the individual buildings downtown that are largely unused during the busiest shopping days (weekends and holidays); but I'm sure there can be some kind of arrangement made through the Downtown Phoenix Partnership, the City, etc. for cheap parking rates to lure the crowds...

HX_Guy
Oct 21, 2011, 5:07 PM
There is a ton of parking!!!!!!!!! I go to CVS all the time and get validated, so i park for free. I even park at Cityscape, buy something small I need, and spend 3 free hours. Most Cityscape places validate for some periods of time, but CVS and Stand-Up Live/ Copper Blues is the best 3-hours.

There may be a ton of parking, but I think this city is used to easy parking and that's not what a parking garage is.

I mean you have to be real...which is easier, to pull up in front of CVS and park in the first couple stalls, or to drive into a parking garage, walk over to the stairs/elevator, go up and do your shopping, then back down...then exit while waiting at the barricade to have your validation stamped.

Same with a Target...sure even in the suburbs you don't usually parking right in front, but you can use a shopping cart to move your stuff around...imagine that scenario in downtown. And yes a lot of downtowns function like this, but people are used to it and accept it. Here in Phoenix, aside from us pro-urban guys, most people see it as a major pain in the ass.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 5:16 PM
There may be a ton of parking, but I think this city is used to easy parking and that's not what a parking garage is.

I mean you have to be real...which is easier, to pull up in front of CVS and park in the first couple stalls, or to drive into a parking garage, walk over to the stairs/elevator, go up and do your shopping, then back down...then exit while waiting at the barricade to have your validation stamped.

Same with a Target...sure even in the suburbs you don't usually parking right in front, but you can use a shopping cart to move your stuff around...imagine that scenario in downtown. And yes a lot of downtowns function like this, but people are used to it and accept it. Here in Phoenix, aside from us pro-urban guys, most people see it as a major pain in the ass.


I agree, which is why a department store makes much more sense downtown. At big box stores people are used to loading up a cart with cheap Chinese crap (although Target sells better crap) and walking it out to their SUVs.

dtnphx
Oct 21, 2011, 6:36 PM
Latest I read is that Bloomingdales (and/or Nordstroms) will be going in at Scottsdale Quarter.

Please share where you read this HX. That would be impressive.

HX_Guy
Oct 21, 2011, 6:58 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/print-edition/2011/10/21/glimchers-scottsdale-quarter-may-get.html

Glimcher’s Scottsdale Quarter may get Bloomingdale’s or Nordstrom
Business First by By Lynn Ducey | For Business First

Glimcher’s Scottsdale Quarter is an open-air shopping and lifestyle center similar to Easton Town Center. The Columbus-based real estate investment trust is looking for anchors and plans apartment housing for the Arizona project, said an RBC Capital Markets analyst who follows the company.

According to a report from RBC Capital Markets LLC, Glimcher is talking with both Bloomingdale’s and Nordstrom about occupying anchor space in the high-end shopping center.
“Glimcher is really focused on getting Scottsdale Quarter done, and it seems to be making good progress,” said Rich Moore, an analyst at RBC Capital Markets, the New York-based investment banking arm of Royal Bank of Canada. “On the eastern side of Scottsdale Quarter, they are looking to put in a Nordstrom or a Bloomingdale’s.”

Leo the Dog
Oct 21, 2011, 7:33 PM
There already is a Target in the Central City. It is a Super Target at that and directly on the light rail line. There is no need for another big box in the Central City. As for Macy's, it is the Wal-Mart of department stores.

Target at Chris-town? That is irrelevant. I thought we're talking about DT.

Your analogy of Macy's to Wal-Mart is comical. Many Macy's are located in very successful DTs across America. In fact, Phoenix would be honored to have such a well known chain locate to it's core.

I was just throwing Macy's out there as an example. You don't want another big box in Central Phoenix, but aren't most dept. stores just that by definition (including "Bloomies"?)

westbev93
Oct 21, 2011, 7:43 PM
Target at Christown/Spectrum is completely irrelevant to the discussion of shopping downtown. First, it is a bit dubious whether you can really consider 19th Ave. and Bethany to be "the Central City." If it is, then you have really drawn the boundaries of the Central City to be very broad. So broad, in fact, that you now have more than enough people within its boundaries to support two Targets.

If you want people to live downtown, they need some amenities. Personally, I hate Target, but many people like them and like them to be nearby their home. I don't know if I would call a Target that is about 9 miles away from downtown to be nearby or servicing downtown in any way whatsoever. Whether it is located on the MLR line is irrelevant. If something is on the MLR line, regardless of distance, that automatically means it services anyone anywhere else on the line? I don't know if I buy that. If you envision a downtown where you can walk, I'm not sure you'll ever get there if you have to travel upwards of 10 miles.

Using your logic, they should close the CVS at Cityscape because there was already Walgreens at Central and Osborn along MLR. No need for downtown grocer because there is an AJ's on MLR at Camelback and several Safeways within walking distance of MLR stops.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 8:36 PM
Big boxes are different than drugstores. They can be placed within small footprints and don't take up blocks of space. Macy's is comparable to Wal-Mart in that they are everywhere. Macy's would be a much better fit downtown but wouldn't have the draw of a nicer department store that would be unique in Phoenix. Department stores in downtowns are not big box stores because they lack the generic warehouse, turned 125,000 sq ft of cheap retail space.

Downtown should offer unique options compared to suburbs which would include boutique shopping, and small retailers (think of markets like Pike Place and even the beginnings of Phoenix Public Market) that offer different products: a butcher, a baker, a store with housewares and cleaning supplies, small inclusive grocers, etc.

Though Super Target is about 6 miles from Central Station, it isn't that hard to walk from target with a few bags to the light rail platform, sit with them on the train, and then walk the few blocks home. If a Target were to open near CityScape the scenario would be similar, if not involving more walking especially for those in Roosevelt. I for instance shop weekly, or when needed and don't drive for groceries, supplies etc and this allows me to avoid the massive shopping that would require a shopping cart and a car.

P.S. Christown is within Central City boundaries as is North Central Phoenix. That line ends at Dunlap...maybe Northern. I-17 is the defining boundary to the west and the 51 to the east. This is a very small area when considering the 500sq miles that make up Phoenix. This area of Phoenix is roughly 24sq miles (smaller than Manhattan).

westbev93
Oct 21, 2011, 8:59 PM
"Downtown should offer unique options compared to suburbs"

If that is true, then why would you want a Trader Joe's or F&E like you said before? Both are in the suburbs and would bring nothing unique to downtown.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 9:03 PM
"Downtown should offer unique options compared to suburbs"

If that is true, then why would you want a Trader Joe's or F&E like you said before? Both are in the suburbs and would bring nothing unique to downtown.

Trader Joe's (and I was against an F&E actually) are in the suburbs but they are unique enough to fill the void for a small grocer in downtown. They also don't carry everything one would need, like a big box, that would suck the life out of smaller, local retailers. You can't buy a TV at Trader Joe's, nor a dining room table, nor shoes, nor clothes, nor do your banking there, nor get your freaking hair cut, nor buy electronics, nor buy Starbucks or junkfood from McDonald's, nor...you get the point!

There are also only 9 Trader Joe's in all of metro Phoenix and they could all fit in one Target or Walmart with plenty of room to spare...

KEVINphx
Oct 21, 2011, 9:08 PM
Downtown should offer unique options compared to suburbs which would include boutique shopping, and small retailers

What you feel downtowns "should" have and what demand actually dictates may be radically different.


Though Super Target is about 6 miles from Central Station, it isn't that hard to walk from target with a few bags to the light rail platform, sit with them on the train, and then walk the few blocks home. If a Target were to open near CityScape the scenario would be similar, if not involving more walking especially for those in Roosevelt. I for instance shop weekly, or when needed and don't drive for groceries, supplies etc and this allows me to avoid the massive shopping that would require a shopping cart and a car.

The time wasted by walking to a MLR station, waiting for the next train, the slow ride to the END of the line (while the train is stopped at each intersection/red light) PLUS a return trip - all for sundries/groceries - would be considered inconvenient by most, if not down-right a pain in the ass.

I bet that would turn a trip that would otherwise be completed in <1 hour into a two to three hour fiasco.

Aside from commuting or special events, I just don't see the LR system here in the valley as adequate for running simple errands if you need to go further than 3-5 stations on average. In such trips, I have found it infinitely faster and more convenient to use my own car. One of the short-comings of the train but obviously it works for tens of thousands of other valley residents each day!



P.S. Christown is within Central City boundaries as is North Central Phoenix. That line ends at Dunlap...maybe Northern. I-17 is the defining boundary to the west and the 51 to the east. This is a very small area when considering the 500sq miles that make up Phoenix. This area of Phoenix is roughly 24sq miles (smaller than Manhattan).

People on here were clearly talking about DOWNTOWN not the entire central city. Besides, how does it make sense to include areas as far north as Dunlap "central" city when you are limiting the east-west span to the I-17 and 51? By the same logic (and certainly the feel of certain neighborhoods) then areas further east and west would also be "central" city simply based on proximity to the actual downtown.

ANYWAY - I digress. . .

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 9:21 PM
What you feel downtowns "should" have and what demand actually dictates may be radically different.

It is a proven model in any city with a vibrant downtown and was the way downtown Phoenix operated before the 1960's. I'm not sure your argument is working in your favor here. If you deliver the daily necessities people need in a format like a market similar to other cities, it would work.

The time wasted by walking to a MLR station, waiting for the next train, the slow ride to the END of the line (while the train is stopped at each intersection/red light) PLUS a return trip - all for sundries/groceries - would be considered inconvenient by most, if not down-right a pain in the ass.

I bet that would turn a trip that would otherwise be completed in <1 hour into a two to three hour fiasco.

I do it in much less time than an hour. Yes, I shop at Target from time to time. It is only a few minutes ride from downtown. The rest is just a few blocks of walking; nothing drastic about it. If you live downtown, expect to walk with bags of groceries. Had to do it in New York, Seattle, and Frankfurt (Germany).

Aside from commuting or special events, I just don't see the LR system here in the valley as adequate for running simple errands if you need to go further than 3-5 stations on average. In such trips, I have found it infinitely faster and more convenient to use my own car. One of the short-comings of the train but obviously it works for tens of thousands of other valley residents each day!

That's cool, but there are plenty who don't mind the short trip on the train to run errands. However, if Downtown Public Market were to be expanded and eventually resemble a real marketplace, then that would eliminate having to use the train for errands like shopping. But I don't think your comment here makes much sense if you truly plan on living an urban lifestyle. The train is plenty effective for going out to different spots when needed. I'm not sure what your last paragraph is arguing for but the "Central City" is just a way of defining an area that is geographically dense and can be easily traversed on mass transit and it INCLUDES downtown.

East of the 51 is generally defined as East Phoenix, East Camelback, etc.

West of the 17 is Maryvale, West Phoenix, etc.

North of Dunlap/Northern is Sunnyslope.

Are you a native or is your family native to this area? Just wondering...

NorthScottsdale
Oct 21, 2011, 9:38 PM
There already is a Target in the Central City. It is a Super Target at that and directly on the light rail line. There is no need for another big box in the Central City. As for Macy's, it is the Wal-Mart of department stores. I never shop there. Though Macy's would be a huge step up for downtown retail, I would prefer something better that would attract more residents of the posh Central City neighborhoods to downtown rather than the Biltmore or Scottsdale; downtown should steal Bloomingdale's before a suburb (or suburban Phoenix) captures that type of "destination" shopping. And you better believe that even North Snottsdalers would go downtown for Bloomie's, that would be true of Chandlerites, PVers, et al...

Macy's is the Wal-Mart of department stores?? You must be joking... I love Macy's. Yes, its nothing compared to Barney's New York or Bloomingdales, but those are the ultra-high end department stores... I would say Dillards/Mervyns/Kohls/JC Penny would be the Wal-Marts of department stores.

I'd love to have a target downtown. They'd get my business

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 9:44 PM
Macy's is the Wal-Mart of department stores?? You must be joking... I love Macy's. Yes, its nothing compared to Barney's New York or Bloomingdales, but those are the ultra-high end department stores... I would say Dillards/Mervyns/Kohls/JC Penny would be the Wal-Marts of department stores.

I'd love to have a target downtown. They'd get my business

You have to continue reading to understand the Macy's comparison. Though the merchandise at Macy's has begun the descent toward cheap crap. Is there now a "downtown" in North Scottsdale??? ;)

HX_Guy
Oct 21, 2011, 9:47 PM
You have to continue reading to understand the Macy's comparison. Though the merchandise at Macy's has begun the descent toward cheap crap. Is there now a "downtown" in North Scottsdale??? ;)

Well, there's a faux downtown in North Scottsdale and people seem to love it. I think people want the urban layout, but they want it to be shiny and new and free of homeless people and unfortunate as it may be, Scottsdale Quarter + Kierland Commons actually gives you more of an urban experience than downtown Phoenix does at this point from the standpoint of actual walkability and choices. Though it's isolated itself, when "inside" the place, it does feel urban and size wise, you're talking about an area equivalent to about Washington to Monroe and 1st Ave to 5th St, and thet will expand if/when they finish Scottsdale Quarter. Imagine if that area of downtown was lined with stores/restaurants/bars/club.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 21, 2011, 10:22 PM
Well, there's a faux downtown in North Scottsdale and people seem to love it. I think people want the urban layout, but they want it to be shiny and new and free of homeless people and unfortunate as it may be, Scottsdale Quarter + Kierland Commons actually gives you more of an urban experience than downtown Phoenix does at this point from the standpoint of actual walkability and choices. Though it's isolated itself, when "inside" the place, it does feel urban and size wise, you're talking about an area equivalent to about Washington to Monroe and 1st Ave to 5th St, and thet will expand if/when they finish Scottsdale Quarter. Imagine if that area of downtown was lined with stores/restaurants/bars/club.

Yeah that would be nice, but the faux town square in the hinterlands will never be urban in any way. It is 1) in North Scottsdale, 2)dependent on cars with no end of that in sight 3) limited capacity to add real density 4) is inorganic 5) I doubt you could turn it into a place where one could work, live, and play without having to drive somewhere unlike the "bones" that downtown Phoenix offers for redevelopment.

Phoenix does need a downtown street (a few at that) with intense retail but I would rather see something resembling Mill Ave than the ticky tacky of SQ + Kierland...Besides, I like the not so shiny aspects of downtown Phoenix, the history of neighborhoods and buildings, the buildings over 50 feet tall (height restrictions in Scottsdale are ridiculously low), the creative and artistic mix of the Row, and the mix of people in downtown Phoenix (I don't particularly crave living in an area where the non-whites are the help or thought of that way).

Vicelord John
Oct 22, 2011, 3:52 PM
Hes right. Macy's has become garbage.

HooverDam
Oct 22, 2011, 7:08 PM
I cringe at big box stores in downtowns. I've been to the downtown Minneapolis Target and it just feels unnatural.

Successful downtowns have big box stores and department stores. Downtowns need Macys, JC Penneys, Targets, etc. It was those sorts of stores (Goldwaters, Diamonds) departing Downtown that spelt its death, until they return (because there's enough residential and hotel space) Downtown will never truly "be back."

MLR

MLR= Main Light Rail? Metro Light Rail? I've never seen it abbreviated like this.



Phoenix does need a downtown street (a few at that) with intense retail

Van Buren and Central are the two streets that make the best candidates. VB already has the Az Center on it after all. It doesn't take a terrible amount of imagination to re-imagine it turned "outward" and the grassy portion on the NW corner of 5th St/VB turned into a City Target or other box store (PetSmart?) with a hotel above it. West VB is already zoned for the highest densities and could/should support larger stores on the ground floor.

Eventually when Union Station is brought back as the main train station, I'd love to see all the buses moved down there as well. That would open up the current Central Station block for development and that would be a great place for the City to try to attract a Macy's (or whatever) with a sweetheart deal.

Central and VB should be the starting place for building out the larger and more varied retail options and then it could be expanded East & West from there. With ASU Downtown, the Bio Med Campus, more hotels, and perhaps and expanding PC - Downtown (at the Pappas School site) would perhaps be enough people Downtown to start expanding retail.

combusean
Oct 23, 2011, 1:49 AM
It is a proven model in any city with a vibrant downtown and was the way downtown Phoenix operated before the 1960's. I'm not sure your argument is working in your favor here. If you deliver the daily necessities people need in a format like a market similar to other cities, it would work.


You're arguing against yourself. You first mentioned that downtown "should" have one type of store, then countered that, then you mention Downtown Phoenix before the 1960's. Downtown Phoenix before the 1960s was an extraordinarily diverse area. It had department stores and boutiques, local and national retailers, and everything in between. Successful downtowns do.


I do it in much less time than an hour. Yes, I shop at Target from time to time. It is only a few minutes ride from downtown. The rest is just a few blocks of walking; nothing drastic about it. If you live downtown, expect to walk with bags of groceries. Had to do it in New York, Seattle, and Frankfurt (Germany).


Why is the light rail all of a sudden the panacea of all downtown shopping and why do you expect everyone to shop as you do? I live in Roosevelt a half mile from the LRT station and only buy a ticket for special events to other cities. It's cheaper for me to drive anywhere in an 8 mile radius than it is to take the train, and as such I do almost a month's worth of shopping at once. I don't have the time nor desire to walk to the train and sit on it for an hour as part of my shopping, especially considering I do most of it at night after it's stopped running.

A Super Target at 2nd St and Washington would be convenient for the surrounding residents even if they drove there.

That's cool, but there are plenty who don't mind the short trip on the train to run errands. However, if Downtown Public Market were to be expanded and eventually resemble a real marketplace, then that would eliminate having to use the train for errands like shopping. But I don't think your comment here makes much sense if you truly plan on living an urban lifestyle. The train is plenty effective for going out to different spots when needed. I'm not sure what your last paragraph is arguing for but the "Central City" is just a way of defining an area that is geographically dense and can be easily traversed on mass transit and it INCLUDES downtown.

Your definition of an urban lifestyle is pretty narrow.

East of the 51 is generally defined as East Phoenix, East Camelback, etc.

West of the 17 is Maryvale, West Phoenix, etc.

North of Dunlap/Northern is Sunnyslope.

Are you a native or is your family native to this area? Just wondering...

Central Phoenix for me ends at the Grand Canal. North of that is the Camelback Corridor, THEN you get to Sunnyslope/"Lower North"/Metrocenter area. Why would a neighborhood called North Central be in the Central City when it's clearly and historically north of the Central City?

The fact that Phoenix has sprawled to 500 square miles is irrelevant. In any other region Metrocenter would be in a different city, but State law (namely the six mile rule, planning regulations, strip annexation) combined with growth patterns have prevented the numerous small cities that would have otherwise existed within Phoenix's present boundaries.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 23, 2011, 2:15 AM
You're arguing against yourself. You first mentioned that downtown "should" have one type of store, then countered that, then you mention Downtown Phoenix before the 1960's. Downtown Phoenix before the 1960s was an extraordinarily diverse area. It had department stores and boutiques, local and national retailers, and everything in between. Successful downtowns do.

The argument here is against bix box stores in downtown; department stores, drugstores, etc are very different and big box stores did not exist in the 1960's. They aren't at all conducive to creating a vibrant urban landscape.

Why is the light rail all of a sudden the panacea of all downtown shopping and why do you expect everyone to shop as you do? I live in Roosevelt a half mile from the LRT station and only buy a ticket for special events to other cities. It's cheaper for me to drive anywhere in an 8 mile radius than it is to take the train, and as such I do almost a month's worth of shopping at once. I don't have the time nor desire to walk to the train and sit on it for an hour as part of my shopping, especially considering I do most of it at night after it's stopped running.

Again, the argument here is for neighborhood marketplaces that can provide for daily living. The light rail supplements that by providing a way to other "markets" where even Tempe (Mill Ave) is mixed into the fold of available options. The light rail doesn't have to be daily mode of transportation or the only option for shopping but it helps and makes living in an urban environment convenient.

Central Phoenix for me ends at the Grand Canal. North of that is the Camelback Corridor, THEN you get to Sunnyslope/"Lower North"/Metrocenter area. Why would a neighborhood called North Central be in the Central City when it's clearly and historically north of the Central City?

It's interesting that transplants want to make up their own neighborhoods and "corridors" for the oldest parts of the city but it just doesn't work. The Camelback Corridor (a totally generic place) wouldn't extent north of anything it would extend east if it were ever conceived. North Central is as it is named, the northern area of Central Ave., hence the Central City boundary before arriving in Sunnyslope which was an independent town at one time.

The fact that Phoenix has sprawled to 500 square miles is irrelevant. In any other region Metrocenter would be in a different city, but State law (namely the six mile rule, planning regulations, strip annexation) combined with growth patterns have prevented the numerous small cities that would have otherwise existed within Phoenix's present boundaries.

Metrocenter would not be another city in any large metro area I can think of. If you transposed Seattle (84 sq miles) over Phoenix, Metrocenter would still be within its city limits. Hell it would still be within San Francisco's city limits (46.9 sq miles) if the southern limit were placed near Lincoln south of the ballpark and arena...

combusean
Oct 23, 2011, 2:26 AM
^ If you include the areas of West Phoenix and South Phoenix, all of which were annexed before Metrocenter was, you'd run into a very big chunk of dirt.

I'm not a transplant, and made this...which is due for updates and fixes...

http://emvis.net/~sean/ssp/126_neighborhoods_of_phoenix.png

The Camelback Corridor is so named not because transplants called it that but because it's a hugely significant arterial road and was the second ring of Phoenix's sprawl if you include Midtown as the first. And again, you argue against yourself. Metrocenter was built two or three miles east of Sunnyslope. If Sunnyslope incorporated, it could have been the first city to wall Phoenix off at the northern end and would have included Metrocenter.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 23, 2011, 2:36 AM
The Camelback Corridor isn't a neighborhood. You argue against yourself if anything. There are all kinds of "corridors": McDowell Corridor, Thomas Corridor, Indian School...

And now we are talking about West Phoenix??? Sure if you include West Phoenix then Metrocenter would be too far to be in a smaller city's footprint. If we include many parts of Phoenix it would be too far. Nice map, did you make it up? It doesn't even match the City's generic urban villages.

nickw252
Oct 23, 2011, 2:39 AM
What does this have to do with CityScape?

phxSUNSfan
Oct 23, 2011, 2:40 AM
What does this have to do with CityScape?

Nothing...but was an interesting conversation. Moving on... :cheers:

combusean
Oct 23, 2011, 4:07 AM
The Camelback Corridor isn't a neighborhood. You argue against yourself if anything. There are all kinds of "corridors": McDowell Corridor, Thomas Corridor, Indian School...

When did I ever say the Camelback Corridor was a neighborhood? Do you think Central City is a neighborhood? Camelback Corridor is a region that is composed of many districts and neighborhoods. I thought the map made that clear.

And very few in Phoenix use the terms McDowell or Thomas or Indian School Corridor. People *do* use the term Camelback Corridor.

And now we are talking about West Phoenix??? Sure if you include West Phoenix then Metrocenter would be too far to be in a smaller city's footprint. If we include many parts of Phoenix it would be too far. Nice map, did you make it up? It doesn't even match the City's generic urban villages.

I'm going by annexation dates. Phoenix annexed its entire north side up to Sunnyslope and its entire south side down to South Mountain in the late 1950's. Maryvale developed almost all at once post-war and stretches far into West Phoenix.

All of that developed many years before Metrocenter did. I'm saying is that if Phoenix were hemmed in by more lax incorporation laws, Sunnyslope and Metrocenter would have comprised the first incorporated suburban city.

combusean
Oct 23, 2011, 4:22 AM
What does this have to do with CityScape?

It started from the CityScape Target announcement to somebody's assertion that one in Chris-Town was enough because this person insisted Chris Town was in the central city, then it went from there to figuring out where Central City was, which dovetailed into what it is now.

But yeah, I've said my peace.

PhxDowntowner
Oct 23, 2011, 4:33 PM
In any other region Metrocenter would be in a different city, but State law (namely the six mile rule, planning regulations, strip annexation) combined with growth patterns have prevented the numerous small cities that would have otherwise existed within Phoenix's present boundaries.

What's the six mile rule?

HooverDam
Oct 23, 2011, 10:41 PM
Central Phoenix for me ends at the Grand Canal.

I think thats pretty narrow and you'd be wise to reconsider Missouri as the Northern border of Central PHX, thats where things really begin to change. Look at the area between the Canal and Missouri vs the Canal and say McDowell, they're largely similar:

Light Rail access: Check
Mid rise towers for office and condo: Check
Prewar housing on modest lots: Check
Street facing retail in stretches: Check
Large offices home to regional HQs: Check
Restaurants/Nightlife aimed at the urban crowd: Check

Its only once you move North of Missouri to you see the much larger post war rambling ranchers in large quantity. Thats also where the Bridle Path begins and changes the feel from a more urban feel to something more countrified, horse properties begin to proliferate as well.

combusean
Oct 24, 2011, 1:42 AM
What's the six mile rule?

Any area that wishes to incorporate that is within six miles of another city has to have their incorporation approved by that city. It keeps towns particularly large here.

plinko
Oct 24, 2011, 4:05 AM
Any area that wishes to incorporate that is within six miles of another city has to have their incorporation approved by that city. It keeps towns particularly large here.

Interesting. I've never heard of that before but it makes total sense.

One of the things I like about metro Phoenix is the relative sizes of the burbs. Phoenix is still the clear heavyweight, but at a regional level they deal with maybe 20 separate entities rather than 100+. Not that regional planning in Phoenix is some wonderland that works extremely well, but at least you don't have to get so many players to agree on everything.

There really are only a few city divisions that I would like to see in the Valley. Scottsdale into two cities (divided at McCormick ranch or thereabouts), Ahwatukee (just so that Phoenix didn't have to throw any money or services at them), and Lehi (it might have maintained some of its agricultural heritage). Not much more.

And I could certainly make the case for consolidation of several of the valley burbs (El Mirage? Really?).

But I digress, this is the Cityscape thread. Thanks for the good info Sean. Always interesting to find out something new about why things developed the way they did. :tup:

KEVINphx
Oct 24, 2011, 5:12 PM
I do it in much less time than an hour. Yes, I shop at Target from time to time. It is only a few minutes ride from downtown. The rest is just a few blocks of walking; nothing drastic about it. If you live downtown, expect to walk with bags of groceries. Had to do it in New York, Seattle, and Frankfurt (Germany).

This is untrue - I would LOVE to see some sort of PROOF that one could walk on foot to a MLR station at, say, Roosevelt in Phoenix, await the next train, take that train journey to the end of the line at Metro Center - run (even literally) in to Target, pick up some sundries and run (again, literally) back to the platform, await the return train, ride the return train journey and walk back home - in an hour or less That would be a stretch in my own car, let alone the slow-as-hell MLR.

Making the same trip in NY or Frankfurt (don't know about Seattle) is NOT comparable as those are places with trains that run at a MUCH greater frequency and speed as well as have right-of-way on their tracks. These cities are also set up for this sort of living much more so than Phoenix is.

The rail line borders my neighborhood on both Camelback and Central and I can walk to TWO stations from my front door in less than 5 minutes, I know what I am talking about.

I wouldn't even take light rail to Target at Metro Center and I live at Central and Camelback - because it is cheaper and faster to drive myself and I live several miles closer along the line.

I'm not sure what your last paragraph is arguing for but the "Central City" is just a way of defining an area that is geographically dense and can be easily traversed on mass transit and it INCLUDES downtown.

My "argument" was that you were clearly deciding on your own gumption a very narrow definition of what is "central city" in Phoenix - which is no officially recognized zone as far as I am aware. You are arguing a definition that is nothing more than personal conjecture.

Based on your own definition, clearly other places outside of your boundary fit the bill as well. Places like I described in my "argument"

As if I am some moron needing education as to the definition of "central city"



East of the 51 is generally defined as East Phoenix, East Camelback, etc.

West of the 17 is Maryvale, West Phoenix, etc.

North of Dunlap/Northern is Sunnyslope.

Are you a native or is your family native to this area? Just wondering...

and east of Phoenix is California and north is Canada. . .

My family started in the valley when my great uncle moved to Phoenix during the Great Depression moving truck loads of ash 30 miles for $.05 a load or something-or-the-other.

My paternal grandfather brought the rest of the family during the late 1950s to find work at the then-new project "Sun City" might have heard of it?

On the other side of the family, my Mother's family moved to the Phoenix area during the 1940s.

I hope that I have proved to you that my family is "native" enough for me to know where the hell shit is.

Leo the Dog
Oct 24, 2011, 5:35 PM
Are you a native or is your family native to this area? Just wondering...


phxSUNSfan, Why should it matter to you whether someone is a "native" or not?

phxSUNSfan
Oct 24, 2011, 5:57 PM
phxSUNSfan, Why should it matter to you whether someone is a "native" or not?

Not that this conversation should be continued, but it is telling if someone is native or not by how much they know traditional Phoenix neighborhoods and namesakes. Transplants, with the help of inept city leadership, have distorted Phoenix neighborhood character and mangled traditional names for areas. Most non-natives don't even realize they live in Phoenix and say they reside in Scottsdale, for example as happens in areas of Arcadia and NE Phoenix....

To KevinInPhx, you're probably right and it might take closer to an hour to run to target from Roosevelt (Post Apartments) if Target were at Metrocenter. Luckily, it's much closer and in Christown. The train doesn't even go to Metrocenter...from end of line at 19th and Montebello to Sycamore and Main in Mesa the entire trip takes about 65 minutes so I very much doubt you know what you are talking about. That or you are playing the contrarian for shits and giggles...

NorthScottsdale
Oct 24, 2011, 10:31 PM
Not that this conversation should be continued, but it is telling if someone is native or not by how much they know traditional Phoenix neighborhoods and namesakes. Transplants, with the help of inept city leadership, have distorted Phoenix neighborhood character and mangled traditional names for areas. Most non-natives don't even realize they live in Phoenix and say they reside in Scottsdale, for example as happens in areas of Arcadia and NE Phoenix...

In reality, the exact opposite is probably true... it is the natives who would rather say they live in Scottsdale to boost their image.

Also, How could someone not realize they live in Phoenix? When they get their utilities bills it will clearly say Phoenix... With the exception of the 85254 zip code, which, for reasons I don't understand has a Scottsdale address.

HX_Guy
Oct 25, 2011, 3:05 AM
In reality, the exact opposite is probably true... it is the natives who would rather say they live in Scottsdale to boost their image.

Also, How could someone not realize they live in Phoenix? When they get their utilities bills it will clearly say Phoenix... With the exception of the 85254 zip code, which, for reasons I don't understand has a Scottsdale address.

85254 isn't the only zip code that is actually in Phoenix but has another city's address. Same is true for parts of zip code 85310...it's actually in Phoenix (parts of it) but the address is Glendale, AZ.

The reason for this is due to the post office that delivers their mail. In both cases, there is a US Post Office near the border of the zip code and that post office delivers to a certain radius. Since the post office itself is located in 85254 (or 85310), then all the addresses that are delivered from that post office also share the same zip code.

pbenjamin
Oct 25, 2011, 6:53 AM
The area that is 85254 had people living in it when it was unincorporated county land. The Post Office had to call it something, they chose Scottsdale. When it was annexed by Phoenix, there was some discussion of changing things but the residents were against it, feeling that their property values would suffer.

I once worked for a fellow who lived in 85254. He maintained that he lived in the city of Scottsdale but had "Phoenix services". He was a moron who clearly never voted in a city election. I have talked to others who had similarly silly ideas.

KEVINphx
Oct 25, 2011, 4:15 PM
To KevinInPhx, you're probably right and it might take closer to an hour to run to target from Roosevelt (Post Apartments) if Target were at Metrocenter. Luckily, it's much closer and in Christown. The train doesn't even go to Metrocenter...from end of line at 19th and Montebello to Sycamore and Main in Mesa the entire trip takes about 65 minutes so I very much doubt you know what you are talking about. That or you are playing the contrarian for shits and giggles...

What the fuck ever, that is what I meant and any idiot following this thread could figure it out. Perhaps it is you who is playing around for "shits and giggles"

I have ridden the fucking train enough times to know what I am talking about. I lived at Main Street and the 101 right on the thing when it was under construction and when it opened up until last October when I moved to the Pierson Place historic district.

You can quit your yap now because you are full of shit and you know it; it would take a VERY good day to make it from Christown to Sycamore in "about 65 minutes"

I know what I am talking about, so I am not going to continue this pointless argument any further.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 25, 2011, 8:20 PM
And back on topic, there was a piece in the AZ Republic today that gave too much credit to CityScape and its impact on Phoenix:

"Exciting developments are happening in Phoenix. Not only is Phoenix one of the most desirable places in America to live, it is becoming one of the most ideal places to work.

Phoenix is receiving another boost in the coming months with UnitedHealthcare's move to the CityScape building in downtown."
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2011/10/25/20111025tuelets253.html#ixzz1bpJxVJr8

scottkag
Oct 25, 2011, 11:21 PM
Chipotle slated to open in December after several construction delays

http://downtowndevil.com/2011/10/25/15933/chipotle-cityscape-dg-fenn-construction/

combusean
Oct 26, 2011, 1:37 AM
phxsunsfan, it's pretty clear that you're not counting travel time to the station and waiting for the next train whereas KevininPHX is. That time figure is pretty significant given a half mile walk could take 10 minutes and then you wait, what, 12 or 15 minutes for the train?

You'd have to be able to spit on the platform from your front door to make it from Sycamore to Chris-Town in 65 minutes and the train would have to hit practically every green light along the way. Kevin's travel time estimates are far more realistic.

gymratmanaz
Oct 26, 2011, 2:32 AM
Did I see a start to Starbucks? looked like they kinda cleared out most of the stuff in the space. I want a cafe' mocha while watching skaters on the rink!!!!! :)

phxSUNSfan
Oct 26, 2011, 2:56 AM
phxsunsfan, it's pretty clear that you're not counting travel time to the station and waiting for the next train whereas KevininPHX is. That time figure is pretty significant given a half mile walk could take 10 minutes and then you wait, what, 12 or 15 minutes for the train?

You'd have to be able to spit on the platform from your front door to make it from Sycamore to Chris-Town in 65 minutes and the train would have to hit practically every green light along the way. Kevin's travel time estimates are far more realistic.

An hour to Christown even from Central and Camelback is more realistic? Please; and yes, I went over what he wrote and he did say it would take that long from Camelback. Utterly ridiculous. And, I didn't really count wait time, but then I generally know the schedule well and tend not to wait on platforms for extended periods of time. But an hour from Roosevelt, don't think so...I've ridden the train a few times from end of line to end of line and it never took more than an hour and 20 minutes. Fastest time was just under an hour.

On CityScape, I'm not into Starbucks nor Chipotle. I wish we would get some more great local cuisine and caffeine. An extension of Barrio Cafe and Lux instead would be much more appreciated IMO.

combusean
Oct 26, 2011, 3:19 AM
An hour to Christown even from Central and Camelback is more realistic? Please; and yes, I went over what he wrote and he did say it would take that long from Camelback. Utterly ridiculous. And, I didn't really count wait time, but then I generally know the schedule well and tend not to wait on platforms for extended periods of time. But an hour from Roosevelt, don't think so...I've ridden the train a few times from end of line to end of line and it never took more than an hour and 20 minutes. Fastest time was just under an hour.


You need to re-read those posts again.


The time wasted by walking to a MLR station, waiting for the next train, the slow ride to the END of the line (while the train is stopped at each intersection/red light)PLUS a return trip - all for sundries/groceries - would be considered inconvenient by most, if not down-right a pain in the ass.


I do it in much less time than an hour. Yes, I shop at Target from time to time. It is only a few minutes ride from downtown. The rest is just a few blocks of walking; nothing drastic about it. If you live downtown, expect to walk with bags of groceries. Had to do it in New York, Seattle, and Frankfurt (Germany).


You said you can make a trip Downtown, not even Central and Camelback, but from Downtown to Target at Chris-Town AND return back in less than an hour, which is impossible. Nobody is arguing that a one-way trip takes an hour from Central and Camelback or Downtown.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 26, 2011, 4:44 AM
You need to re-read those posts again.

You said you can make a trip Downtown, not even Central and Camelback, but from Downtown to Target at Chris-Town AND return back in less than an hour, which is impossible. Nobody is arguing that a one-way trip takes an hour from Central and Camelback or Downtown.

Tell you what, next time I go I will time myself...out the door and back. If it takes longer, I'll admit it...

westbev93
Oct 26, 2011, 2:46 PM
Even if you know the train schedules well, that only reduces your wait time for the trip to Target. You do not control the wait on the ride back home unless you are so skilled that you can time your shopping around a train schedule and know precisely how long to walk around that store. And the biggest flaw in your argument has nothing to do with the train at all. How can you accurately time how long it will take the monkeys working at Target to get you checked out and out the door? When you go to Target to shop, what are you buying? A pack of gum? Because any real shopping trip itself will probably take you 15 minutes at a minimum.

As for Cityscape, an extension of Barrio Cafe? Nothing would suck the soul out of that restaurant more than putting it into a shiny corporate shopping area. Lux? I'm pretty sure that the lawyers and other professionals in and around Cityscape would quickly tire of the pretense that surrounds Lux and its employees. Rather than copy existing things from around town, I'd prefer something entirely new go in (but that's just my opinion, which is admittedly worth little).

Vicelord John
Oct 26, 2011, 3:47 PM
Someone should kill themself and then tell us how long it took including time to ride the train to target to fill a prescription of Valium, eat it all, and then make it to a computer in heaven.

I want true travel time including all the stops in purgatory, otherwise whatever you're quoting will be wrong and the whole experiment will be a waste.

DowntownDweller
Oct 26, 2011, 3:57 PM
Well.. its my 3rd day at CityScape. I've since dropped a floor, lost my beautiful SE facing corner view of the ballpark and US airways center. I've not got a less than great view out the NE side staring at the Hyatt and the roof of the bldg with first watch in it. There's a LOT of people down here these days.

PHX31
Oct 26, 2011, 4:06 PM
Lol John.

Sucks about your view DD. I think the best would be south facing towards luhrs. And also the hotel (eventually). Who knows what you would see through those windows.

DowntownDweller
Oct 26, 2011, 4:15 PM
Lol John.

Sucks about your view DD. I think the best would be south facing towards luhrs. And also the hotel (eventually). Who knows what you would see through those windows.

S facing at my elevation only views the base of the hotel. Its a pretty suck view. We only go up to 9, and then 17 after that, but us lowly folk aren't allowed up on 17.

phxSUNSfan
Oct 26, 2011, 4:57 PM
Even if you know the train schedules well, that only reduces your wait time for the trip to Target. You do not control the wait on the ride back home unless you are so skilled that you can time your shopping around a train schedule and know precisely how long to walk around that store. And the biggest flaw in your argument has nothing to do with the train at all. How can you accurately time how long it will take the monkeys working at Target to get you checked out and out the door? When you go to Target to shop, what are you buying? A pack of gum? Because any real shopping trip itself will probably take you 15 minutes at a minimum.

As for Cityscape, an extension of Barrio Cafe? Nothing would suck the soul out of that restaurant more than putting it into a shiny corporate shopping area. Lux? I'm pretty sure that the lawyers and other professionals in and around Cityscape would quickly tire of the pretense that surrounds Lux and its employees. Rather than copy existing things from around town, I'd prefer something entirely new go in (but that's just my opinion, which is admittedly worth little).

Like I said; I'll let you know. I usually get a few things there; napkins, paper towels, TP, cleaning supplies, and crap like that.

You are probably right about Barrio Cafe in CityScape but there are plenty of students, artist types, etc in the downtown crowd that would fill Lux if the lawyers and professionals tire of the ambiance. It is about bringing in variety and getting away from the sterility of the environment as much as possible. I doubt Urban Outfitters, Republic of Couture, etc bring in the lawyers and professionals.

Leo the Dog
Oct 26, 2011, 5:09 PM
On CityScape, I'm not into Starbucks nor Chipotle. I wish we would get some more great local cuisine and caffeine. An extension of Barrio Cafe and Lux instead would be much more appreciated IMO.

CityScape isn't the place for that. Those places would be a better fit and thrive in say Roosevelt once more apartments and residents move there. CityScape is the perfect fit for big brands and name recognition.

DowntownDweller
Oct 26, 2011, 5:14 PM
CityScape isn't the place for that. Those places would be a better fit and thrive in say Roosevelt once more apartments and residents move there. CityScape is the perfect fit for big brands and name recognition.

Isn't that the truth. Only reason we leased 5 full floors was so we'd get signage on the top of the bldg.

AZScraper
Oct 26, 2011, 6:25 PM
I'll just leave these here...
http://i41.tinypic.com/262pi7t.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/n3lson.jpg

phxSUNSfan
Oct 26, 2011, 8:03 PM
CityScape isn't the place for that. Those places would be a better fit and thrive in say Roosevelt once more apartments and residents move there. CityScape is the perfect fit for big brands and name recognition.

Not sure I completely agree; most of the restaurants and stores are a mix of local retailers and big national brands. Vitamin T, Arrogant Butcher, Par Exsolance (sp), Yogurtini (not sure if this is a national brand), etc are all small and unique. I think there is room for both at CityScape.

DowntownDweller
Oct 26, 2011, 9:31 PM
I just wish there were more affordable solutions for lunch. I miss the North Central area for variety of food at low cost. I'll be subsisting on gyros and coni dogs when I don't bring my lunch I suspect.

gymratmanaz
Oct 30, 2011, 10:15 PM
Door was open in the new Starbucks so i walked in and checked out the blueprints. Lookin good. The space is clear of excess stuff. Now it is time to fill it up.

Also, the Chiptle has some walls finished.

The Strand is crankin along. i will be curious to see what those bright red table stands are like. Kinda unique and fun. I hope one stays outside. It adds a vibe!

Breakfast Club is really moving along. They are even working again on the To Go stand. They are adding more shade canopy to the structure.

nickw252
Oct 31, 2011, 3:49 AM
I'll just leave these here...


I'm not a civil engineer/architect, what does the picture show? Have the elevator cores been closed up? What are the big openings on the right side of the building? Those look like elevator cores also.

Vicelord John
Oct 31, 2011, 6:35 AM
I'm not a civil engineer/architect, what does the picture show? Have the elevator cores been closed up? What are the big openings on the right side of the building? Those look like elevator cores also.

He likes to play the guessing game and try to be coy.

I didn't get it either, which is why I completely ignored his post. :tup:

DowntownDweller
Oct 31, 2011, 7:27 PM
Door was open in the new Starbucks so i walked in and checked out the blueprints. Lookin good. The space is clear of excess stuff. Now it is time to fill it up..

Where is the "new" fourbux?

gymratmanaz
Oct 31, 2011, 8:39 PM
Starbucks is next to the Verizon store.

Don B.
Nov 2, 2011, 2:10 PM
Took my friend (she just moved here from Tucson) down to Nut Scrape yesterday and had a nice day. Did some sight-seeing, had lunch and picked up a few things.

--don

nickw252
Nov 3, 2011, 12:05 AM
To answer HooverDam's questions about the Palomar structure, here is a picture of it from today. I don't like what it looks like so far from the west side. It looks very plain and institutional. Almost like a hospital.

http://i42.tinypic.com/e8mi39.jpg

HX_Guy
Nov 3, 2011, 12:27 AM
Hey look! People in Patriot's Square! :D

HooverDam
Nov 3, 2011, 12:46 AM
Nick, thanks for the pic but you're right, how ugly. The whole development is more and more of a disappointment all the time. I just don't understand how hard it is to hire a local guy like Eddie Jones and have him do something unique and of good quality. It really doesn't cost more, hell he'd probably design something of a superior quality that in the long run would cost less.

somethingfast
Nov 3, 2011, 3:50 AM
yeah, that building is butt-ugly and actually almost negative progress for downtown. it looks like the equivalent of a cheap stucco tract home.

Vicelord John
Nov 3, 2011, 5:45 AM
I was noticing the other day how prison'esque it looked :(

HX_Guy
Nov 3, 2011, 6:18 AM
It does look quite value engineered but it's in no way "negative progress"...it will still bring more people to downtown and that's what we need. I doubt anyone will think "Hmm, that's sort of an ugly building...I'll book my hotel elsewhere." Besides I'm looking forward to the pool area...hoping they do some sort of outdoor club like the W in Scottsdale.

DowntownDweller
Nov 3, 2011, 4:35 PM
Hey look! People in Patriot's Square! :D

Hey, I walk through there probably 6 times a day.

Jsmscaleros
Nov 3, 2011, 4:44 PM
Boooo at the lack of balconies. How are hotel guests supposed to throw paper airplanes at people in the square now?

phxSUNSfan
Nov 3, 2011, 5:13 PM
I was noticing the other day how prison'esque it looked :(

You can thank the Seattle architect firm for its soulless designs. Seattle has a much better downtown but all the new buildings in that city resemble CityScape's aesthetics, or lack thereof...

HooverDam
Nov 3, 2011, 10:24 PM
Serious question: how do we go about ensuring better looking buildings in Downtown in the future? The Urban Form Code, recently adopted, addresses this to some degree. With all of its requirements for sustainability, density, shade, etc. one would hope by its nature of making developers pay closer attention to detail they'll create more aesthetically pleasing buildings as well.

Do other Cities/Downtowns have any sort of Architecture review boards that can hold up projects or review them? Our skyline and Downtown are just so uninspiring, its sad...there's no reason with our very unique climate we shouldn't have more unique buildings. Instead we're continually given bland boxes that could be any place.

Just once I'd love to see a developer building a tower hire an Eddie Jones or Will Bruder type.

combusean
Nov 3, 2011, 11:30 PM
Why the heck is the EIFS gray on one side and blue on the other? It might actually look half decent if it were symmetrical, but it fails hard.

The tower crane attached to it still while so much of it is completed leads me to believe this is our very own Ryugyong hotel.

plinko
Nov 4, 2011, 12:20 AM
Serious question: how do we go about ensuring better looking buildings in Downtown in the future? The Urban Form Code, recently adopted, addresses this to some degree. With all of its requirements for sustainability, density, shade, etc. one would hope by its nature of making developers pay closer attention to detail they'll create more aesthetically pleasing buildings as well.

Do other Cities/Downtowns have any sort of Architecture review boards that can hold up projects or review them? Our skyline and Downtown are just so uninspiring, its sad...there's no reason with our very unique climate we shouldn't have more unique buildings. Instead we're continually given bland boxes that could be any place.

Just once I'd love to see a developer building a tower hire an Eddie Jones or Will Bruder type.

I live in and design buildings in a city with all of those things (Santa Barbara). Trust me, you DON'T want this. It stifles creativity to no end. The end result is also that most of the buildings end up looking remarkably the same and the designed district ends up being incredibly homogenized.

The one area where this type of thing can help greatly is in terms of landscaping and public amenities. This is something that Santa Barbara absolutely excels in (by basically extorting from any and all developers).

I totally agree though that Phoenix DESERVES a downtown project by Bruder and by Jones (and a few others of note). That Callison brought in their blah broadbrush 'could be anywhere' designs and so truly failed to understand the city or the desert is really unfortunate. Collier Center (masterplanned by the Jerde Partnership of Santa Monica) is just as bad.

HooverDam
Nov 4, 2011, 12:32 AM
^I don't want anything too prescriptive, but does EVERY building have to be a box? Can we have ONE building down town with a piqued roof, or some kind of interesting form to it?

Even the rules that are on the books, like screening mechanical stuff on roofs, are blatantly ignored by developers liked RED.

plinko
Nov 4, 2011, 2:43 AM
Unfortunately in this specific case, the hotel is probably one of the least profitable portions of the project (not like it's a Four Seasons or anything REALLY fancy). And since they can't build the upper portion of the tower right now, it's going to look quite stumpy and plain.

As far as the facade? Lowest common denominator so the only selections are in the colors and maybe the panel joints (though it appears they put little thought into that also).

BTW, totally agreed on the mechanical screening issue. The parapets on both the Sheraton and the Cityscape Tower (can't recall the name of it) are travesties and clearly in violation of the spirit of city zoning.

Leo the Dog
Nov 4, 2011, 2:53 PM
It could look worse...it could've been another brown building.

nickw252
Nov 4, 2011, 7:10 PM
http://i51.tinypic.com/2zflen5.jpg

gymratmanaz
Nov 4, 2011, 8:08 PM
Thanks for all your pics today Nick. i agree about other angles and better look. Also, they are not done yet. I too would have preferred another facade to differ from the other tower, but as with the Sheraton, put the money inside where people are.

Also, i am betting there will be some form of crown like the other tower, pool adornments, and other stuff to break up the grey.

HooverDam
Nov 5, 2011, 2:11 PM
Plinko, have you looked over the Downtown PHX Urban Form code adopted ordinance? I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as a professional in the business. What do you think it does well? What does it lack?

http://phoenix.gov/urbanformproject/dtcode.html

HX_Guy
Nov 9, 2011, 5:09 PM
Kimpton Palomar Hotel at CityScape could be hub for visiting sports teams
Phoenix Business Journal by Mike Sunnucks, Senior Reporter
Date: Wednesday, November 9, 2011, 9:09am MST

http://assets.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/Palomar%2003.jpg

The Kimpton Palomar Hotel opening next year in downtown Phoenix may become a hub for professional sports teams visiting the Valley to play Phoenix-area teams.
The 250-room Palomar will be part of the CityScape mixed-use development, across Jefferson Street from US Airways Center and a few blocks west of Chase Field.
Sources familiar with the hotel’s development say its owners are looking to position the Palomar as a destination for teams coming to play the Arizona Diamondbacks and Phoenix Suns in downtown Phoenix, as well as teams visiting the Arizona Cardinals and Phoenix Coyotes in Glendale.
Right now, many teams playing the D-backs and Suns stay at the Ritz-Carlton Phoenix at 24th Street and Camelback Road.
National Football League and National Hockey League teams playing the Cardinals and Coyotes in Glendale also stay at the Ritz or the Renaissance Glendale Hotel & Spa.
Hotel, team and CityScape representatives contacted were mum about where visiting teams stay now and whether the Palomar might host any when it opens next year.
“We are unable to provide any comment or information about our guests,” said Kaitlin Crawford, spokeswoman for the Ritz-Carlton Phoenix.
“We don’t give out that information,” said an official at the Renaissance in Glendale, across from Jobing.com Arena and University of Phoenix Stadium.
One source familiar with the Palomar said the hotel might open earlier than its original target of summer 2012. Attracting professional teams to stay there probably would provide a steady and lucrative revenue source for the new property. Visiting teams generally stay for one to three nights, bringing players, staff, coaches, and sometimes families and accompanying media.
Downtown Phoenix hotels traditionally rely on event traffic from the Phoenix Convention Center as well as out-of-towners visiting the city’s core for special events.
CityScape spokeswoman Jan Bracamonte said she did not have any information about the Palomar potentially becoming a host hotel for visiting teams. She did say the Palomar is expected to open in April, which would coincide with the start of the Major League Baseball season.
San Francisco-based Kimpton Hotel & Restaurant Group LLC also owns the FireSky Resort & Spa in Scottsdale. The hospitality company operates more than 50 boutique hotels and 54 restaurants in 24 markets.
Palomar hotels are in Los Angeles, San Diego, Washington, Dallas and other cities, with rates ranging from $200 to $300 or more per night, depending on the room and amenities.
Kimpton officials did not respond to requests for comment.
Downtown Phoenix and the CityScape development also are expected to be focal points when Arizona hosts the Super Bowl in 2015. The region’s Super Bowl bid, accepted last month by National Football League owners, included having concerts, the media center and fan events in downtown Phoenix.