Phoenix CityScape Thread [Archive] - Page 7

HX_Guy

Jul 31, 2007, 10:08 PM

The new issue of Chain Store Age is out and as rumored, the new rendering of the CityScape project is out.

Unfortunately, the picture quality is HORRIBLE. I'm hoping RED will release a better quality image on their website or something so some actual details can be made out.

Either way...here we go...

http://www.nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeNewRender.jpg

I missed this earlier in the issue...it's a view from the east looking west into the park space of CityScape. I'm sure they are exaggerating a little bit with the trees, especially since they all look to be 20+ years mature...but still, looks pretty good no?

http://www.nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/CityScapeRender2.jpg

PHX31

Jul 31, 2007, 10:36 PM

/\ Love it! (even though you can't make anything out because the picture sucks).

It's striking, it seems to have a nice illuminated crown, and it kind of reminds me of a light blue smaller Seattle BofA tower (which is one of my favorite buildings). Build it now!

Interesting that there are only 2 towers.. aren't there ultimately supposed to be 4? Kind of like they are planning on building only the minimum requirements.

vertex

Jul 31, 2007, 11:03 PM

Interesting, I just visited the Callison Architects (http://www.callison.com/) website, to see if any updated renderings were posted. All mention of CityScape has been removed from their portfolio. In fact, there is no longer any mention of CityScape found anywhere on the website.

nbrindley

Jul 31, 2007, 11:36 PM

I think I can make out a third building peeking out from behind the taller of the two. It looks like it's 15-20 feet shorter than the smaller of the two buildings and kind of brownish.

HX_Guy

Jul 31, 2007, 11:48 PM

That is Block 23 which would be the next phase.

HX_Guy

Aug 1, 2007, 1:06 AM

I was just thinking...it may just be me, but if this comes out the way they are saying it will, it's definitely very inviting. Living right above or a few steps from an AJs for grocery shopping, multiple restaurants, retail...next to a bookstore...plus walking distance from major sporting arenas, theatres and such is starting to sound pretty good.

PHX31

Aug 1, 2007, 2:27 AM

/\ Plus light rail encircles the site...

The park looks to have too much hardscaping for my liking.

PHX602

Aug 1, 2007, 2:56 AM

It looks awesome from what I can see. The buildings look very Vancouver/San Diego. Hopefully we get some better quality renderings soon.

HX_Guy

Aug 1, 2007, 3:02 AM

I wonder what the deal is with the green roof on the restaurant on Patriot's Square block, north side.
Are they planning on going "green" or is it simply just painted/covered/designed in that color.

HooverDam

Aug 1, 2007, 3:36 AM

Well it looks pretty good from what I can tell. There is a bit too much hard-scaping, and most of all I really wish there was an opening somewhere on the Southwest corner that opened up to Jefferson and allowed people to travel from the Luhrs complex into the development and not have to go around.

I wonder how serious they are about the beams of light coming off the tops of the buildings, I think it will be a nice effect, but I think it might just be something they are doing for the renderings. I also hope they do a green/garden type roof on the lowrise along Washington, that would be great.

HX_Guy

Aug 1, 2007, 3:40 AM

I wonder if they will make an entrance at the southwest corner? They should, even if it's not open toward the sky completely, but sort of a small tunnel or something to be able to walk through.

andrewkfromaz

Aug 1, 2007, 4:37 AM

The landscaping render is pretty typical, most projects advertise mature landscaping to make everything look a little better.
I also feel they could use more shade, though. It does look like plenty of open space, I just hope the space is pretty active, with lots of store frontage on it.

vwwolfe

Aug 1, 2007, 4:42 AM

In the park view picture, is that Central Avenue running through the project?

JimInCal

Aug 1, 2007, 2:13 PM

kevininlb

Aug 1, 2007, 2:47 PM

I know we were all anxiously awaiting the new renderings. It's too bad they aren't larger and better quality. I found the Chain Store Age story on mixed-use development and the renderings are not any better in the web version of the magazine. I just e-mailed the developer through the Cityscape site, lamenting what was published and asking when/if they will be posting larger, clearer and more detailed renderings. Hopefully, they will do it soon.

:previous: Cool.

Would you, if you don't mind, ask the guy if heights have been set? The building on the right -- guess that's the mixed-use bldg -- looks pretty tall, but not tall-tall, if you know what I mean.

HX_Guy

Aug 1, 2007, 5:04 PM

Combusean has already spoke with the DSD and they confirmed 525' and 385' for the towers.

kevininlb

Aug 1, 2007, 5:09 PM

:previous: okay, cool. i remember seeing mention of that but didn't realize it was confirmed.

combusean

Aug 1, 2007, 5:50 PM

^DSD, at this point, is probably more definitive than RED.

HX_Guy

Aug 1, 2007, 6:47 PM

In the park view picture, is that Central Avenue running through the project?

Yes, that is Central Ave that runs through the project.

Dale

Aug 1, 2007, 10:25 PM

So, will the 525' and 385' foot towers be built at the same time ?

combusean

Aug 1, 2007, 11:06 PM

^ According to DSD, yes.

Dale

Aug 1, 2007, 11:39 PM

Okay, good news.

JimInCal

Aug 2, 2007, 4:04 AM

I know we were all anxiously awaiting the new renderings. It's too bad they aren't larger and better quality. I found the Chain Store Age story on mixed-use development and the renderings are not any better in the web version of the magazine. I just e-mailed the developer through the Cityscape site, lamenting what was published and asking when/if they will be posting larger, clearer and more detailed renderings. Hopefully, they will do it soon.

OK, got home from work tonight and saw that my e-mail bounced back. Evidently, the "Contact Us" e-mail address on the Cityscape site is now defunct. I need to muster the energy to e-mail RED the same request for some decent renderings. Geez, you'd think they would want to pummel the media with this. This may wait till manana as my wife and I split a nice, impromptu bottle of Sauvingnon Blanc tonight (yummy:yes: ) and I'm done for the day.

HX_Guy

Aug 2, 2007, 4:08 AM

I've already gotten a response back from Chain Store Age and they said to contact RED for higher quality pictures.

I've sent an email to RED about it and so far, no reply. I'll put up something if they get me a rendering.

They might just be wanting to wait it out until everything is finalized. Their groundbreaking should be in a couple months and I expect everything will be brought forward then. I would expect this to be all over the local newspaper and news and I'm sure they would like the same, but maybe even these renderings arent the final versions and they may not want to get hopes up then let people down if things don't pan out as planned.

JimInCal

Aug 2, 2007, 4:17 AM

:previous: You're the man HX! :tup: I almost wish we hadn't seen anything yet. I guess we need to practice patience a little longer. Of what we can make out, the towers appear unremarkable to me. I was hoping for something truly iconic for Phoenix. I suppose just the height is iconic at this point. I wish the orientation of the tallest building would have been skewed on the lot. It's another rectangular building, aligned with the rectangular street grid. It would be nice to see some at 45's.

HX_Guy

Aug 2, 2007, 5:07 AM

We've heard a lot about something "iconic". What do you guys mean when you say iconic...what sort of building do you have in mind? What is a good example of something iconic?

As you said, I think the height will make this iconic for quite some time. If it does end up being 525' as Combusean said, I think it will hold the record for a while. Hell Chase tower has had it for what, 34 years? While I wouldn't think it would be the same with this, it would still hold it for a few years I would think, especially since you really can't build taller in the core of downtown. That's not to say that they can't do it in mid-town, but it would be a while.

HooverDam

Aug 2, 2007, 6:29 AM

We've heard a lot about something "iconic". What do you guys mean when you say iconic...what sort of building do you have in mind? What is a good example of something iconic?

I'd just hope its something 1. Unique. That is, I hope its unique to Phoenix, I'm not foolish enough to think we'll get anything that will garner national attention, but I'd like something unlike anything else in Phoenix (see: not brown!). 2. Green. There's no reason that a tower breaking ground in 2007/08 shouldn't be LEED certified. The desert creates a lot of interesting architectural issues to overcome, and thus, should lead to some very interesting architecture, sadly though (at least in regards to high rises) most of the things built in Phoenix shy away from this challenge and ignore their environment. 3. Not just a box. It seems nearly every building in Phoenix is a squareish building with a flat squared off roof, I'd hope for a more interesting roofline.

kevininlb

Aug 2, 2007, 1:37 PM

Sometimes being the tallest is enough for a building to be iconic (see Seattle, Houston, etc.). I'm not worried about a box, not at all. Plus, while the renderings are blurry at best, it looks like these buildings may be using the same type of glass that makes 44 Monroe look sleek and fantastic (seems to be a trend, the BofA building going up in Manhattan is also using it, sort of that silvery gray glass, beautiful). For me, for this one, tall is enough.

Don B.

Aug 2, 2007, 2:00 PM

sundevilgrad

Aug 2, 2007, 2:12 PM

Lot's of good news on the Cityscape front. I was in Seattle for a week and developed a serious case of skyscraper envy. Glad to see we'll probably get a new tallest!

PhxSprawler

Aug 2, 2007, 6:37 PM

For me, an iconic skyscraper is the 900-foot Bank of America Tower in Charlotte, North Carolina, designed by Cesar Pelli. It is probably singularly the most beautiful in the entire world. The crown on top is especially amazing and if Phoenix got a shorter version of this tower, I would be as happy as a pig in shit.

--don

I have to agree with you, Don! That is one of the most beautiful buildings in the world... inside and out! We need some CEOs with more company money than Jesus to commission something like that in Phoenix.

I don't think anything will be "iconic" without someone calling it gawdy or feeling that it is inspired by cocky arrogance.

I don't want a big box as our tallest or focal point for downtown. I want something that can stand the test of time like the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Center, or even the Space Needle, even though it might be considered gawdy or developer vanity.

HX_Guy

Aug 2, 2007, 6:50 PM

I think even something of a "different" color might be something that could be iconic and instantly be connected to Phoenix.

I havn't ever seen a red (tinted glass) or a burnt orange, something along those lines. It wouldn't have to be the tallest but unique to Phoenix and would be recongnized and remembered.

Don B.

Aug 2, 2007, 7:30 PM

^ Those would be interesting colors. I still hope for a crowned peak or pyramid top on any new tallest for Phoenix.

--don

PHX31

Aug 2, 2007, 7:49 PM

/\ It seems like a crown or pyramid peak for a new tallest is unlikely given the height limits in Phoenix. If the CityScape people want to build a tower with as much office space/mixed use space as possible, they probably won't want to waste 10% of the possible height (if a crown was 50' for example) on an ornamental thing, they'll want leasable space.

That's just what I think... however, I really wish they would include a crown/pyramid/spire.

phxazguy

Aug 2, 2007, 9:55 PM

Mexico City has many "iconic" (colorful and interesting) buildings even though none of them are that tall.

NorthScottsdale

Aug 3, 2007, 12:55 AM

i really like the trump international towers on the las vegas strip. when i was there one of them was close to being done and it looked awesome. it had gold tinted glass (donald trump, go figure) but it looked really cool. a different colored glass is enough for me. even the blue glass looks awesome. you dont really need the crown for it to look cool

PHXRising

Aug 3, 2007, 1:06 AM

For me, an iconic skyscraper is the 900-foot Bank of America Tower in Charlotte, North Carolina, designed by Cesar Pelli. It is probably singularly the most beautiful in the entire world. The crown on top is especially amazing and if Phoenix got a shorter version of this tower, I would be as happy as a pig in shit.

--don

I agree with you as well. I was in Charlotte last year & I couldn't take my eye off of that building when I was there. I find it ironic that a city half the size of Phoenix has a building that's nearly twice as tall our tallest.

B of A Tower - 871'
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t110/cvanden_2007/449578.jpg

Chase "Tower" - 483'
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t110/cvanden_2007/154537.jpg

vertex

Aug 3, 2007, 3:10 AM

HooverDam

Aug 3, 2007, 3:34 AM

^^^Funny thing is, if Valley National Bank had been as aggressive as little-ol' North Carolina National Bank, and started to acquire other banks, rather than being acquired, we might be the one's with the 900 ft tower.

Ah well, they did give us some very unique branch buildings, which is more than you can say for Bank One/Chase

JimInCal

Aug 3, 2007, 4:07 AM

I agree completely with the Bof A Tower in Charlotte. Serious envy with that one. It's funny, I started to look for pics of towers I liked and considered iconic for their cities this morning and that was the first one I saved with the intention of posting a few of them this evening. I consider iconic skyscrapers as those that grandly impact their site as well as the skyline in which they sit. They must be unique, bold in design and generally considered stunning in form. Kinda like an iconic movie star that may not be perfect in appearance but has that something extra...penache, appeal, charisma. Marilyn Monroe comes to mind. Here are a few of my favorites, that I consider iconic in stature.

Charlotte (I included this again because I also like the other building next to it. It's unique and complements the Bof A tower. I like the flaired corners that make the box visually interesting)
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/43adc523b3.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

The Library Tower in LA (or whatever it's called now). It dominates DT LA. I like curves in my iconic towers. Again, like the aforementioned movie star.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/77482c7753.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Ahh, Chicago. Again, nice curves.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/286cdaec8d.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

The "Gerkin" from London. This is definatley a BOLD statement.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/7f8a0afb89.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Emporis shows this to be the tallest tower in Mexico City. Boxy on one side with a curved facade on the other. Love this one a lot.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/cf1716bedd.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Houston, of course. Zoning, or lack thereof, run amuck... but an unusual stair-stepped facade on this famous tower.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/d3d94a35bc.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

Last, but certainly by no means least, New York. Bold, impactful, angular and stunning to behold from near and far.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/9328be4223.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

ljbuild

Aug 3, 2007, 5:26 AM

I have to agree with you, Don! That is one of the most beautiful buildings in the world... inside and out! We need some CEOs with more company money than Jesus to commission something like that in Phoenix.

I don't think anything will be "iconic" without someone calling it gawdy or feeling that it is inspired by cocky arrogance.

I don't want a big box as our tallest or focal point for downtown. I want something that can stand the test of time like the Empire State Building, the Chrysler Center, or even the Space Needle, even though it might be considered gawdy or developer vanity.

If thats the case take a look at the the bank of america tower (60 stories)
in DALLAS , that highrise looks like a rocket ready for take off.
I think that looks better that the charlotte tower. Not to say that the charlotte tower isnt beautiful, but the dallas tower sticks out more.

Who knows maybe PHOENIX can come up with something like a SAGUARO TOWER. (representing the desert) Now that will really be cool.
You look at it at night and it is outlined in green neon light.!!!!!:tup:
looking just like a saguaro cactus.

HX_Guy

Aug 10, 2007, 12:15 AM

Permit# PLAT-070157 Issue Date 8/9/07 Expires 8/8/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE BLOCK 77
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

Description/Scope of Work: PLAT

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: plat for cityscape block 77

PHX31

Aug 10, 2007, 12:30 AM

What is block 77? Is that the whole thing? I thought it was broken into block 21-22-23

HX_Guy

Aug 10, 2007, 12:36 AM

Block 77 is the Patriot's Square block.

HX_Guy

Aug 14, 2007, 11:58 PM

Here we go, now we're talking...another permit and I think this one has a bit more "substance" to it. (Someone who knows permitting should probably chime in)

Permit# PRLM-0703575 Issue Date 8/14/07 Expires 8/13/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE
Address 1 E WASHINGTON ST 85004 Zoning
L 15 B 22 ORIGINAL TOWNSITE OF PHOENIX QS Q10-28 APN 112-27-007B Dist 08
Description/Scope of Work: PRELIMINARY PLAN REVIEW

DESCRIPTION OF WORK: NEW MIXED-USE DEVELOPMENT:RETAIL,ENTERTAINMENT,OFFICE,HOTEL,RESIDENTIAL AND UNDERGROUND PARKING

Contractor Information Type Contact Phone 480-947-7772
Name RED DEVELOPMENT LLC
Address 6263 N SCOTTSDALE RD City/St SCOTTSDALE AZ Phone

Tfom

Aug 15, 2007, 2:45 AM

I was just in Toronto and I saw a building that I thought would represent something Iconic at a much height much closer to what they are looking at in Cityscape. It's very narrow, so not realistic for what they are planning, but I will tell you the pictures don't do it justice, it was a stunner. I wish I had a pic, but here's a link to One King West.

http://www.urbandb.com/canada/ontario/toronto/one_king.jpg

I wish I had time to take pictures for you guys but I had a train to catch. I may have some nice ones of Buffalo City Hall, but I will have to wait till I get back home to get them off my camera.

Don B.

Aug 15, 2007, 5:10 PM

That building is cool. It would be great for the "Sliver Building" fantasy talked about for downtown Phoenix.

You can see the Toronto structure here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/don85259/Toronto%20May%202006/IMG_7969copy.jpg

--don

oliveurban

Aug 16, 2007, 6:55 AM

^ 1 King West ?

That building is a boutique hotel, and condos. I actually stayed there last time I was in Toronto. Plus, instead of entirely replacing an older building that was torn down (* the one it borders immediately to it's right, or eastern side, in Don's picture), it actually incorporates it into the entire design. Something like this would be great for Phoenix.

http://www.onekingwest.com

jvbahn

Aug 16, 2007, 11:54 AM

As for an "iconic tower" my favorite design currently is the "Strata" in London, which is proposed as an "eco-friendly tower" in that it generates a good part of it's own electricity through wind turbines at the top and solar panels integrated into the facade. Sounds like a thing that would work wonders in Phoenix.....http://images.primelocation.com/SAGR/images/SABBN161043.JPG

However, with Cityscape being an ensemble piece, currently I think that it could use something along the lines of the Aurora Place development in Sydney. It's about the same height that we'll be getting, so it sort of fits, though our design should be done in such a way that it emphasizes height, which Aurora does not, since Sydney has much taller buildings.http://www.dupont.com/safetyglass/lgn/stories/zimages/15064bz.jpg

I was going to suggest the Torre Mayor in Mexico City, good to see someone else beat me to it.....however, that should really be what Central Park East should be, with the glass facade to the north.

HX_Guy

Aug 16, 2007, 5:23 PM

Chalk up another permit for CityScape. It looks like this thing is really starting to gain some momentum on the permits side, which of course is great and necessary if things are to start moving on the site soon.

Permit# ENVR-070109 Issue Date 8/15/07 Expires 8/14/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE
Address 1 E WASHINGTON ST 85004
Description/Scope of Work: SLOPE/INVENTORY

Contractor Information Type GEN Contact Phone 480-967-8282
Name DESIERTO VERDE, INC. Ins PHOENIX INSURANCE CO 6304718B259PHX Exp 10/1/07

I guess they better get to it if it expires Oct. 1st. :D

Archdevil

Aug 16, 2007, 5:38 PM

I think Desierto Verde is a tree company, maybe they are going to remove the trees from Patriots Park so they can start some real demo. Just a thought, I really have no idea what this permit is for.

HX_Guy

Aug 16, 2007, 5:54 PM

The permit is for slope and inventory. The contractor will check the slope of the site and also take an inventory of trees and plants. I don't know if they are actually the ones that would remove the trees or if they just do the inventory and someone else will do the actual removal.

http://www.desverde.com/services/index.cfm

Azndragon837

Aug 17, 2007, 1:55 AM

I don't know if you guys have mentioned this, but while on a workout run around the downtown last night after the gym, I noticed half the site of the middle block of CityScape is fenced off and shielded in the green tarp. Looks like they are finally getting the ball rolling on this baby.

HX Guy - preliminary review is probably site plan review. Nice to see some review starting with this project, it is way overdue.

-Andrew

HX_Guy

Aug 21, 2007, 6:42 AM

The block has been fenced off for a few weeks now for the the archiological digging they did.

There was also a new permit issued...

Permit# DSAP-07260 Issue Date 8/20/07 Expires
Permit Description APPEAL
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE

REQUEST: TECHNICAL APPEAL

combusean

Aug 28, 2007, 3:49 AM

While I dislike reporting pointless minutiae, the summer doldrums leave us to take tidbits as they come up.

The entire middle block of CityScape, 22, abutting Patriots Square is now fenced and wrapped. A peek through revealed the parking lot, but who knows what the week will bring us. This project is doing a bang-up job of dragging this out as long as it takes--I had never seen a "pre-construction evaluation" sign up before.

Azndragon837

Aug 28, 2007, 6:29 AM

^Yeah, all this pre-construction is teasing us. And HX_Guy's frequent but yet informative permit posts is literally teasing us even more! LOL!

-Andrew

gymratmanaz

Aug 29, 2007, 9:26 PM

Yes. Hx_guy Rocks!!!!!!

PHX_PD

Sep 2, 2007, 9:16 PM

I noticed last night that they started removing asphalt from block 22 and there is a rather large hole on the South-East corner. Unlike last weekend, there was no vehicle access at all. I don’t know if they’re still doing the archeological review, but the hole I saw was much bigger / wider than any of the previous ones.

There was a new permit issued on Thursday:

Permit# CCPR-0703849 Issue Date 8/30/07 Expires 8/29/09
Permit Description CITYSCAPE
Project 06-5309 CITYSCAPE
Description/Scope of Work: SUBDIVISION - RESIDENTIAL

jvbahn

Sep 3, 2007, 10:54 AM

Does anyone know when they are going to release a rendering that's larger than just a thumbnail? I mean, there are designs drawn up, where the hell are they?

AP11

Sep 3, 2007, 4:01 PM

combusean

Sep 3, 2007, 4:46 PM

^ Hoooly sheepshit. Ask and you shall receive! Thank you!

kevininlb

Sep 3, 2007, 5:00 PM

Hello Guys

I have been reading for a couple of years and finally decided to post.......My background is in mid scale hotel development so fire away if you guys have any questions regarding hotel design and development.

Here is a little info on Cityscape.

http://www.callison.com/ourWork/index.cfm?display=project&Project_ID=18

I have heard that the 150 room hotel will be developed by the group who has designed a couple of really cool hotels near downtown Atlanta. Twelve Hotels should be a nice addition.

http://www.twelvehotels.com/Home.do

Wow, this may go down as the BEST FIRST POST ever. Incredible. Thanks for posting.

Few thoughts on the design: towers look fantastic, although not sure either is in the "iconic" league a lot of us were hoping for. But, sh*t, I'll take it. And I am a tiny bit concerned about the whole plaza, street acess thing. Stairs??? don't think that ever works to encourage people walking around, lingering etc.

But thanks again, I've been waiting for something like this.

sundevilgrad

Sep 3, 2007, 5:39 PM

Nice renderings... The "park" still doesn't seem to have too much shade though...

sundevilgrad

Sep 3, 2007, 5:41 PM

Nice renderings... The "park" still doesn't seem to have too much shade though...

vertex

Sep 3, 2007, 5:42 PM

And I am a tiny bit concerned about the whole plaza, street acess thing. Stairs??? don't think that ever works to encourage people walking around, lingering etc.

I agree 100% about the stairs. My impression from the beginning was that the plaza was going to be at street-level. The stairs are a real shock. This makes the project even less inviting and accessible.

The whole point of the city's stipulation was to offer a suitable replacement for Patriot's Park. At the street level, you should be able to at least catch a glimpse of people, grass, trees and the open area that was put forth in previous plans. Instead, you get a wall of stairs at both sides of the block, wiping out any possible sight lines.

This thing is starting to look less like the icon that's been promised, and more like the Arizona Center, part II.

http://www.callison.com/_img/ourWork/projectDetails/PDCityScape2.jpg

gymratmanaz

Sep 3, 2007, 6:12 PM

Finally some juice on this project. I too saw the digging starting and got excited. Do we have any further idea of a real ground breaking date....or estimate?

Also, will they only be starting on the one block or will the other two have anything occuring concurrently with the one? Will Patriots Park remain, or will it be torn down in anticipation of work on that block?

Don B.

Sep 3, 2007, 6:17 PM

I don't know - the other renderings are nice:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/don85259/New%20Phoenix%20projects/PDCityScape1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/don85259/New%20Phoenix%20projects/PDCityScape3.jpg

I'd still prefer a crown, but these towers look pretty cool to me. And if the taller one gets to 525 feet, it will be significantly more massive than Chase Tower, precisely because it doesn't have a pointy crown and it is nearly 50 feet taller.

Thanks for the linkup!

--don

combusean

Sep 3, 2007, 6:41 PM

I like the stairs idea. The big hump in the middle of block 22 is for placing the traditionally back of house facilities underground, so you're going to have to go over it anyway. Moreover, it doubles as stadium seating for whatever they might have going at Patriots Square, eg, turn off the fountains and you've got a stage platform of sorts. On the park block itself and really the rest of the project, there's an absolute overabundance of hardscape, but I'm guessing potential issues with the garages underneath make a lot of green on this surface a stretch. One word: planters. It's made up on the green roof, which pays excellent homage to the historical buildings to the south whose viewsheds from the ground are obliterated. One hopes this aspect of the project passes the value engineering phase. To that end, the whole project gets bonus points for not looking cheap or over-designed. For example, I like what appears to be a generous use of sandstone in the facades and the lack of expanses of gray concrete

I like the office tower, altho I wish the overall design deviated a bit from Central Park East. However, I like how this one creates that slant in the fence-like decoration on top. The residential tower's overall redeeming quality is the height. It looks like the figure of 525' for that one and the 385' for the other aren't too off. Hopefully it passes muster. The skydeck on the 15thish floor of the residential tower breaks the overall massing up in addition to separating the balcony-less poor folks in the lower floors from the ones higher up. I like how the podiums deviate from the big box concept by introducing a lot of human scale to the development, while the towers themselves are appropriately separated from each other.

I give them bonus points for working a big "outdoor room" concept in the whole thing, even tho I still would have liked to see more park space. It's not quite a retail courtyard, but it's not quite a park either, but with the renderings RED's justifications for needing to build that much retail per the terms of the council agreement finally seem warranted. I like that its 3 stories of retail. Overall, it's obviously not the wasteful suburban project we feared, but critical ground floor decisions like frequency of entrances along Washington St show up essentially indiscernible in the second rendering. Unfortunately, the ramps on the west side of the block are adjacent to the back of the building, which is a shame especially considering the light rail stop across the street. You'd think they could have overcame this with some amount of creativity for this valuable street-frontage. One last concern--I hope the building masses themselves will be enough to provide needed shade in the park block and the area leading up to the staircase. That overhead sun can be a killer.

DevdogAZ

Sep 3, 2007, 6:53 PM

I agree 100% about the stairs. My impression from the beginning was that the plaza was going to be at street-level. The stairs are a real shock. This makes the project even less inviting and accessible.

The whole point of the city's stipulation was to offer a suitable replacement for Patriot's Park. At the street level, you should be able to at least catch a glimpse of people, grass, trees and the open area that was put forth in previous plans. Instead, you get a wall of stairs at both sides of the block, wiping out any possible sight lines.

This thing is starting to look less like the icon that's been promised, and more like the Arizona Center, part II.

http://www.callison.com/_img/ourWork/projectDetails/PDCityScape2.jpg

This picture is looking toward the east at the middle block (Block 22) of the complex, so you really can't see the "park" and plaza that will be replacing PSP.

JimInCal

Sep 3, 2007, 7:51 PM

Finally, Finally! I hope we get more than these three renderings in the near future, but this ends a long drought for us all.

It would be nice to see some renderings from viewpoints that are internal, looking outward as well as the sight lines around the perimeter of the project looking in at various spots. Also, some close ups of various details like water features and green areas would be helpful to get a sense of the character of the human scale spaces. Hey, it happened once today, might as well ask the architecture god. ;)

I like the overall look of the towers, with clear tinted glass as the primary sheathing. As was commented concerning Central Park East, this clean-line design looks sleek, stylish and modern... ie: New York, Chicago, Seattle ...

I like the repetition in materials we're seeing in the new structures downtown; like the clear glass walls and sandstone touches. It adds to a sense of cohesion and connectivity. Overall, I'm pleased, but I want to see MORE!

DracoCaifan

Sep 3, 2007, 8:04 PM

I'm not too impressed, but I like the idea of getting a new tallest!! I hope they do a better job with Patriot's Park Area....

andrewkfromaz

Sep 3, 2007, 8:17 PM

From Don's post in the Phoenix Projects Rundown thread:
[...]under the agreement approved Wednesday, the project's developers and the city will have to work with the public to redesign the park. Phoenix will also retain ownership of the open space.

That news came as a relief to many residents and groups, who are asking that the developers abide by design recommendations recently set forth by the city's Parks and Recreation Board. That panel has stated that the park contain at least 2 contiguous acres of space, among other things.

Attracting people

"The park redevelopment process must begin with a clean piece of paper and not a series of artists' concepts rendered without citizens' input," said Steve Weiss, spokesman for the Downtown Voices Coalition, a community group. Mike Ebert, managing partner for RED Development, which is building the project, said he is looking forward to working with the parks board.
I think it's interesting that Phoenix will maintain ownership of the open space. Who then is responsible for its maintenance? How much control will the Parks Board have over the design of the open space, and what are their goals for the space? Obviously, space in the middle of a retail development, which this project is at ground level, serves a different function than typical urban open space or urban parks. Hopefully, Parks and Rec and RED can come to an agreement that creates an attractive, busy space.

PHX31

Sep 3, 2007, 9:28 PM

Overall, the design of the towers looks decent. It's not "iconic" (which usually means some type of crown or spire), but given the fact that there are height limits, I can't see a downtown building ever having a large crown... that is too much wasted height that could be additional floors/residences. Let's hope the nighttime illumination is impressive (that in of itself could make it pretty iconic), and maybe even that little volume on the top of the tower will be transparent/illuminated.

Thanks for the lookup/info.

Now we just need someone with photoshop skills to put these on the existing skyline.

vertex

Sep 3, 2007, 10:29 PM

This picture is looking toward the east at the middle block (Block 22) of the complex, so you really can't see the "park" and plaza that will be replacing PSP.

http://www.callison.com/_img/ourWork/projectDetails/PDCityScape2.jpg

It's the east side of the middle block; that's 1st street in the foreground. You're facing west, not east.

DevdogAZ

Sep 4, 2007, 4:12 AM

http://www.callison.com/_img/ourWork/projectDetails/PDCityScape2.jpg

It's the east side of the middle block; that's 1st street in the foreground. You're facing west, not east.

You are correct, but my point still stands. I was responding to someone who posted this picture and was lamenting about how the "park" had stairs and was partially on an upper level. But this picture doesn't show that at all.

jvbahn

Sep 4, 2007, 8:28 AM

Wow, thanks for the post....need to start asking more questions, I suppose.

Impressive, and Callison is responsible for a good many towers around the world.

HooverDam

Sep 4, 2007, 8:50 AM

Well somewhere down the line I got confused and had always assumed the taller building in the project was going to be office, but the new tallest is going to be the residential tower? I sure hope they can fill it up!

I would hope for something a bit more 'iconic', but beggars can't be choosers. CityScape and CPE will look nice book ending our current downtown skyline with their similar modern styles. The light shafts coming out the top will be interesting I'm sure, but I'd like something more iconic during the day. I wish the taller tower followed the slant of the walkway that cuts through the project a bit more, as is it seems fairly squarish like everything in Phoenix, the slant of the 'aisle' would've created a nice opportunity to perhaps create something more triangular (and thus more unique in the Phoenix market). Its hard to tell but right now it may be shaped sort of like a trapezium, which would be somewhat unique.

I give it a B overall :D

HX_Guy

Sep 4, 2007, 11:14 AM

Good to be back in town and to see the pictures plus hear the news that some dirt is moving on the site. I'm going to have to stop by myself and snap some pictures.

I agree that the stairs things wouldn't be my first choice...sort of like Colliers Center and how you have to go up the stairs and its completely unconnected from the street...but this will only be for the middle block and not Patriot's block at least.

As for the development of the whole project, I believe they are going to work on the middle block first, with Patriot's block acting as a staging area, and the development of that block underway as the middle block is well underway or nearly done. The third block I'm not sure, but it's probably all phase 2 which will be a bit off I'm sure.

I rehosted the images and played with the contrast/sharpness a little. I hope everything end up looking it is shown...it will be an awesome project.

http://www.nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/PDCityScape1.jpg

http://www.nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/PDCityScape2.jpg

http://www.nitnelav.com/CityScapeConstruction/PDCityScape3.jpg

KEVINphx

Sep 4, 2007, 3:56 PM

i dont get it, the way the retail is laid out didnt work at arizona center, it didnt work at colier center so why is it going to work here?

maybe the residential traffic etc is going to help get that part going. that shopping center in downtown san diego.........whats it called? anyway, you enter many parts of it by stairs and escalators too and its thriving. i dont know...

PHX NATIVE 929

Sep 4, 2007, 4:49 PM

HX_Guy

Sep 4, 2007, 5:37 PM

Another difference is that it also appears it will have street facing retail and not be a walled off fortress like the AZ Center.

KEVINphx

Sep 5, 2007, 1:56 AM

Another difference is that it also appears it will have street facing retail and not be a walled off fortress like the AZ Center.

this may be true, but it does appear (from what i've seen) that a majority of the retail is still inward-facing between the north and southern buildings in the project.

oh well, the grocery store component is true

andrewkfromaz

Sep 5, 2007, 2:43 AM

Additionally, the AZ Center doesn't have residences (well, condo residences) nearby. Cityscape, with homes (in fact, a large number of homes) directly above the open space, will have almost immediate demand built in. I think it should be enough to make a big difference. The grocery store will draw people through the open space and to the retail, but when was the last time you lingered anywhere with a bag of groceries on each arm?
These comparisons will hopefully come to naught. I walked through the AZ Center a few nights ago and was surprised and saddened to see a very Grand Canyon-esque Arizona tourism shop, replete with Katsina dolls and dreamcatchers and "Mexican jumping beans." I'm mystified as to how that place stays in business.

HX_Guy

Sep 5, 2007, 2:54 AM

CityScape lot 22 (middle block) September 4th:

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept4/14.jpg

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept4/15.jpg

http://www.nitnelav.com/DTSept4/16.jpg

Tfom

Sep 5, 2007, 3:58 AM

I walked through the AZ Center a few nights ago and was surprised and saddened to see a very Grand Canyon-esque Arizona tourism shop, replete with Katsina dolls and dreamcatchers and "Mexican jumping beans." I'm mystified as to how that place stays in business.

That one has always mystified me as well.

Azndragon837

Sep 5, 2007, 7:25 AM

I am glad dirt is finally moving on the CityScape site. AP11: I do appreciate the new updates on the design and renderings of the project...thanks for them, and welcome to the forum!

One thing I like about the new 500+ footer is the slanted crown roof on the top of the building, better than it being simply flat. The only concern is the lack of open green space, but again, we can't get everything we want.

Overall, I think this project has potential. Let's hope light rail is ultilized and all uses will face the stations. I can't wait until a part of this project gets underway. How exciting!

-Andrew

Edifice

Sep 5, 2007, 10:40 PM

Callison does not show this as one of their current projects. Does anybody know if these renderings are still relevant?

Don B.

Sep 5, 2007, 11:17 PM

^ Wrong. See the source post on the previous page:

Hello Guys

I have been reading for a couple of years and finally decided to post.......My background is in mid scale hotel development so fire away if you guys have any questions regarding hotel design and development.

Here is a little info on Cityscape.

http://www.callison.com/ourWork/index.cfm?display=project&Project_ID=18

I have heard that the 150 room hotel will be developed by the group who has designed a couple of really cool hotels near downtown Atlanta. Twelve Hotels should be a nice addition.

http://www.twelvehotels.com/Home.do

The pics come from their website, so I'm not sure how you can claim they aren't involved with the project, unless you have super-secret inside information you didn't put in your response above.

--don

JimInCal

Sep 5, 2007, 11:34 PM

Actually, Edifice has it right. Cityscape has disappeared from Callison's site. I just did a search by Market: Mixed Use and Geographic Region: The Americas as well as a larger search for all projects for The Americas and it is missing now. I wonder why they removed it for the time-being. Maybe they let the cat out of bag sooner than RED wanted. :shrug:

vertex

Sep 5, 2007, 11:45 PM

Callison does not show this as one of their current projects. Does anybody know if these renderings are still relevant?

That's what I pointed out several posts back. It's not under 'current projects' anymore.

You need to look under 'Master Planning' instead.

Edit: JimInCal and Edifice, both of you are right, the link is no longer valid, and Cityscape is no longer listed under Master Planning either.

Edifice

Sep 6, 2007, 2:11 AM

Don,

I don't understand your response. Simple question (I'm not from area 51), does anybody know if these renderings are still relevant? Looks like somebody was in a hurry to take it down from Callison's website.

combusean

Sep 6, 2007, 2:22 AM

I don't remember their website looking the same before and this thread documents us checking Callison's website before. I wonder if they upgraded it and forgot to leave the project detail page hidden. My guess is that there will be some public hullabaloo around groundbreaking where they will make more concrete announcements like its tenant mix and new renderings.

I would be surprised if these renderings were out of date. They show the updated park configuration in accordance with the site plan approved by the parks board, down to the removal of the staircase that was originally proposed on Block 77's (PSP) northwest corner. Everything else checks out too.