[oliveurban]

Okay, I'll start it.

Post here new articles, renderings, updates, chat, etc., in regard to the CityScape project.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/untitled.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/CityScapePlan1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/CityScape.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/cityscape5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/cityscape3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/cityscape2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/cityscape1.jpg

[Evo5Boise]

Sorry, I have nothing to post about it but wanted to say that the project looks great!!

[Joe Gardner]

Looks like a great space! Do you know the cost for the project?

[GeorgeLV]

The site plan doesn't make very much sense. The views on the residential towers are obstructed for no good reason.

[oliveurban]

Looks like a great space! Do you know the cost for the project?


$900 million (2.5 mil square feet)

[Azndragon837]

I'll give this a bump.

-Andrew

[JimInCal]

:baby:

Thanks for birthing the Cityscape thread camelback road! This should be an exciting one. I hope the C-scape project team keeps tabs on us. In addition to the news, there have already been some great insights as to what many of us hope will happen with this pivitol project. The stakes are high and the opportunity is a tremendous one!

[JimInCal]

The site plan doesn't make very much sense. The views on the residential towers are obstructed for no good reason.


:hmmm: I think the site plan has the labels for the residential towers reversed with the office towers. The rendering shows the taller residential towers (notice the swimming pools at about 300') offset so they capitalize on the views as much as possible. The view is obviously a major selling point with hi-rise condos. I believe its an oops.

[Upward]

I like it, except for that pedestrian bridge. Big curvy ped bridges that turn crossing the street into an unnecessarily long walk are a feature of bad wannabe-urban design.

[plinko]

I'll save my commentary on this project till I actually see something out of the ground...but...

Anybody see what I see in the plan below? The block for PSP should be the downtown transit center (I realize there would be issues with the amount of paving required for busses, but what about putting them underground?). Hmmm...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/cityscape3.jpg

[HX_Guy]

I wonder why CityScapes website, www.downtownphxrising.org, is down?

[JimInCal]

I wonder why CityScapes website, www.downtownphxrising.org, is down?

I just linked to it with no problem @ 12:30 PST. We're not getting jittery are we? :hyper:

[sundevilgrad]

Does anyone have news on the PSP compromise? Hopefully, they'll get this done without a major fight, but knowing Phoenix it'll have to go to the voters. All for a piece of crap park that nobody but the bums and drunks uses.

[HX_Guy]

The park seems to be holding up a lot. It will probably be 6 months before they even come to some sort of design, let alone actually break ground on anything.

[HooverDam]

Do the developers have to keep the park space on the block its currently on, or can it be on any of the blocks? It seems to me the park would be better suited one block to the east, with Cityscape buildings on both sides of it. Leaving the park open in that space would allow for a lot of foot traffic to travel between the arenas/whareouse district to the financial and business towers north of Washington.

Either way, the developers need to figure out a way to make foot traffic almost force its way through the park.

[HX_Guy]

I think they almost have to keep it on the block its on due to the parking garage underneath. If I remember correctly, someone mentioned that the parking garage could support up to a 20 story building on top of it...which wouldn't be enough if they are still sticking to their original proposal.

[GeorgeLV]

The park seems to be holding up a lot. It will probably be 6 months before they even come to some sort of design, let alone actually break ground on anything.

6 months is a lifetime in the construction business. Because of rising construction costs, if they haven't already locked in their prices with a contractor, the project may be as good as dead.

[JimInCal]

If you all recall a few days back, prior to the birth of the Cityscape thread, Sean (aka compusean) mentioned that he had some exciting news regarding an infamous downtown eyesore. (Its on page 64/65'ish of the Phx Devel thread). He said he was sworn to secrecy, awaiting the official announcment, which I believe is now less than two weeks away. I thought it was pretty obvious that its about Patriots Square Park. He said we would like it so let's be patient and see what happens... :whisper:

[blm3034L!fe]

WOW! That's a very nice multi project indeed, if Phoenix gets this off the ground that would really help out the skyline, and add some impressive density. Good news 4 Phoenix, I'll pray to the skyscraper God's 4 U guy's that these Towers become a reality...:D

[combusean]

The bitter taste in my mouth about CityScape is going away. One of the SPP coorganizers formulated some questions about CityScape which are answered by John Chan, Downtown Development Office director


Questions:

1. Will the entirety of block 77 (Patriots Square) be City-owned or will RED own the "fringes"?

The current plan anticipates that the City will retain ownership of block 77, we would convey development rights (through a lease) to the developer on portions of the block to build the required retail and residential. The park would continue to be owned by the city as directed by the City Council.

2. If any square footage is reclaimed from street right-of-ways (e.g. by narrowing Central Ave.) will the City own this property or will RED
Development?

There are no detailed plans at this time regarding narrowing of streets. These concepts require traffic studies etc. to evaluate the impacts to vehicular, transit and pedestrian flows.

3. What language/requirements will RED's DRA contain w/ respect to EO, or small, minority-/women-owned businesses? What percentage of RED's retail square footage will be devoted to EO enterprises?

Regarding EO requirements, the developer is required to abide by City ordinances as well as State and Federal laws. The percentage of retail space open to EO enterprises has not been established however, the City will incorporate a requirement setting minimum goals for the percentage of retail space available to local small businesses. For public improvements that will be reimbursed by the City, the developer is required to follow public procurement requirements and meet EO and MBE/WBE goals.

4. By when do you wish to wrap-up RED's development contract? When will it go to Council for approval? If it's still in process, would it be possible to include this type of an agreement for the retail for Block 77 and others?

The City Council as already authorized staff to negotiate and enter into the necessary agreements with the developer and we anticipate that the agreements will be finalized over the next couple of months. As outlined in the answer above, we will be incorporating EO goals in the agreements.

5. Is there someone else we should contact at the City re: this idea. I thought perhaps the City's Equal Opportunity Division. Or, the Hispanic & Black Chambers, and AZ Chain Reaction (Kimber Lanning)? I understand you may already be in touch with them on this.

Since our first discussions with RED, the City has reiterated the importance of developing a mix of local and national tenants. This was outlined in the Council adopted Downtown Strategic Vision and Blueprint. Mike Ebert understands and agrees that having a mix of local retailers contributes the uniqueness and attractiveness of the project and he has been meeting with groups such as Arizona Chain Reaction to achieve this goal.

[JimInCal]

Sean,

Its been a couple of weeks now and I for one have not forgotten that you had some exciting news about a certain DT eyesore (can you say: Patriot's Square Park...Oh, I think I can :irked:). Can you give it up??? :deal:

[combusean]

^ No, it wasn't PSP. It was the Garage Mahal, which is being sold by the City to finance part of the CityScape deal.

[loftlovr]

I think I guessed that was it.
Is it being sold to a Developer wishing to build on top?

[combusean]

Dunno. Ask Jensen (the guy behind the entertainment district)

[JimInCal]

Dang! I thought it was going to be some incredible unveiling of the incorporation of the park site into Cityscape. I hope the city is getting a good price. I know the garage its underutelized now but just wait...it will be a moneymaker down the road. I don't know why everyone seems to hate the thing sooooo much. I don't mind it where its at, across the street from the ballpark. Maybe the new owner will top it off with a huge nightclub, or tennis courts, or blimp port :rolleyes:

[HX_Guy]

I don't think it's that bad where it's at because it's sort of on the outskirts of the downtown core area. There are definately worse downtown parking garages which I'd rather see go.

Then again, building something on top of it (demolishing it probably would cost way too much...and why not keep it an build on top of it?) would enlarge the downtown "core" area sort of like Summit at Copper Square is doing.

[Azndragon837]

That garage is sooo ugly: it doesn't engage in the street, it's a massive eye sore, and the frontage facing Chase Field COULD HAVE been something better (i.e. shops, bars and restaurants). Instead, we got a monolithic eyesore that takes up a massive city block, and has 4 sides of "dead zones." I would either build on top of it, or carve out the first floor and incorporate some retail or restaurants there in the future. Actually, WRAP the garage with retail, services, restaurants, bars and living spaces, hiding the ugly thing behind...now THAT'S a better idea!

-Andrew

[combusean]

^ 2 city blocks, actually.

[JimInCal]

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7505/plazaeast1os9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special48/articles/0417garage0417.html

I'm very glad the Plaza East Garage (OK, aka Garage Mahal) will be sold to private enterprise. The link is an article from April concerning what a financial loss it has been for the city. Let's see what a good entrepreneur can do with it :yes: I still kinda like it though...decent landscaping, nice bulky scale next to the enormity of the ballbark, etc. Its a fine garage and does what a garage should do, store cars while you GO somewhere nearby. They're not meant to be a destination in themselves...but who knows what the future holds. Perhaps the Garage Mahal can be redeemed.

[HooverDam]

Hopefully there will now be ground floor retail at the Garage, it is too much of a dead zone right now. It, among other things really cuts the southern part of downtown off from areas like the Science Center and the Artisan row houses.

I actually don't mind the exterior styling of the garage, at least its not just grey concrete like most garages. It would be great if they would build something on top of it that kept the same style and shape and was maybe 10 more stories, then we'd have a building in town that wasn't the same shape as every other building.

[JimInCal]

OK, I think most of us have unreasonable expectations of parking garages. I just did an exhaustive image search on parking garages looking for an attractive one. Stand-alone garages are typically spartan in design and butt ugly! Unless they are the base of an expensive condo tower, they usually are designed more for function than for their visual appeal. I could not find any examples with ground floor retail on a stand alone garage.

I found two examples that may be rehabilitation possibilities for the garage mahal... The first uses some bold geometric painting
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9587/parkingfeaturejv4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The second uses some nice big trees to hide the ugly garage
http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/8683/garagenu2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I like the idea of opening up a design competition to architects and artists on how to beautify the beast. Another idea I had concerning how the garage cuts off the surrounding areas from one another is to add criss-cross passageways through the bottom floor with pedestrian crosswalks and lights inside so folks don't get run over.

A challenge: find an example of an attractive stand alone garage with perimeter retail or other "non-garage" use.:dissy:

[Vicelord John]

this is my favorite one ever, it's in chicago.

http://p.vtourist.com/1770473-Architecture_Public_Art_outdoor-Chicago.jpg

[plinko]

^For those of you hoping they can build on top...don't hold your breath. Garage floors are designed for less load than either typical commercial space or residential space. One would think that a parking garage would be able to hold MORE load than a typical floor, but that's entirely wrong (as for a nightclub...can you say collapse?).

If someone is buying this, it's likely that it's either to tear it down (seems unlikely) or carving out one corner to build a tower of some kind. I seem to recall though that this garage has a super steep speed ramp all the way from one end to the other (joining multiple levels all the way to the top). That makes carving out a corner extremely problematic for traffic and even more problematic for accessing the upper levels of the garage (one would assume that the tower would be carved out on the high ramp end side of the garage). Massing reworking of the traffic flow.

What a cluster...maybe it is worth tearing down?

[Vicelord John]

^For those of you hoping they can build on top...don't hold your breath. Garage floors are designed for less load than either typical commercial space or residential space.
really? cause last time I checked, 500 cars weighs more than office chairs and desks.

[Upward]

It's hard to believe that a parking garage wouldn't be as strong as a normal building. On the other hand, I've been in plenty of parking garages where I could feel the floor flexing as cars drove around it.

[Vicelord John]

It's hard to believe that a parking garage wouldn't be as strong as a normal building. On the other hand, I've been in plenty of parking garages where I could feel the floor flexing as cars drove around it.
um, the garages are built to flex. They have to be very STRONG and have the flex in order to hold all those office chairs.:haha:

[loftlovr]

Well, Plinko is an architect so I tend to listen!

That sucks- I was thinking since Cityscape is building on top of that garage that it was easy- as well- 44 Monroe's first 7 floors are parking garage...

-The idea of carving out a corner is always a possibility though.
It would seem like such a HUGE waste to tear the whole thing down!

[HX_Guy]

Perhaps the ones purposly built to have a tower on top are done differently and therefore they can take the weight? (Referring to Monroe 44)

As for the parking garage under Patriot's Square Park, I have no idea. I do remember someone here mentioning that it could hold up to a 20 story tower on top of it.

[plinko]

really? cause last time I checked, 500 cars weighs more than office chairs and desks.

um, the garages are built to flex. They have to be very STRONG and have the flex in order to hold all those office chairs.:haha:

You assume that the cars and the office equipment are both there 100% of the time. The building code does not.

Parking structure floors are built to 'flex' due to movement of heavy objects. Commercial and residential floors are built to be stiff for human comfort factors (less deflection and reverberation) and life safety (more dead loads...e.g. loads that are present 100% of the time).

The basic lbs. per SF of area for live load (loads that are not constant) for office and for garages are about the same. But since free-standing parking structures require longer spans (based on the parking layout and circulation), and the beams need to deflect greater due to greater movements, the live loads on the beams can be reduced by up to 40% since the beams serve a wider area. That same 40% reduction can also happen in residential and commercial space, but is likely to me much less (usually 10-15%) due to the fact that bay spacing in those buildings is nearly always significantly smaller.

So the floors in a parking structure are built to 'flex' and technically carry less load and the floors in a commercial or residential structure are built to be stiff with less deflection.

BTW, assembly areas (uhhh...nightclubs, restaurants, etc) allow NO reduction in the beam loading. A typical parking structure floor can't support that (or a storage use either) and is UNLIKELY to be able to support a residential or commercial use (though I have seen it done in an old parking structure in Boston's Back Bay which was converted to an apartment building).

Standard Live Loads (with no reductions) in lbs. per SF:

Assembly areas: 100-125 psf
Parking garages: 50 psf
Residential: 40 psf
Storage (light): 125 psf
Storage (heavy): 250 psf
Pedestrian bridges and walkways: 100 psf

FYI, the dead load (weight of the materials carried and permanent fixed features), the live load (non-constant load based on use), material and span are four of the main factors architects and engineers use to size beams.

My point is that it's unlikely that the existing garage can support either type of conversion (commercial or residential) above the first floor. Commercial would require too much vertical space anyway (typical floor to floor in a parking garage is 9'-6" which is WAY low for commercial space). Residential is a small possibility, but it would require some major reconfiguration of the vehicle circulation in order to keep the parking.

It would at least be an interesting study to do as a designer.

[JimInCal]

Thanks for the engineering lesson Plinko. I would have made a good architect but I couldn't do the math.

[plinko]

^Completely common misconception. Most architects (including myself) suck at math. Engineers on the other hand...

I minored in General Engineering while at ASU so I actually understand a little bit about it (at least more than most architects). Oddly enough I've also designed 8 parking garages (though at the moment only 1 is completed - a 5 story 1,000 car behemoth on 14th Street in Tempe).

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled thread.....

[DJAProperties]

Thank you Plinko, having studied a bit of engineering myself (mechanical though), I get what you are saying. It still seems possible to me to build on top of it though, if it is not the top floor supporting the load. What I mean is, wouldn't it be possible to enlarge some of the pillars in and around the garage using those as a pier or pylon type foundation? Basically the garage would be supporting nothing, but the pillars going through it would, and above the top floor of the current garage, there would be new beams with the proper load rating. I don't know, I have never built anything even close to that size, and even the houses I have have been designed and engineered by someone other than me, so it is all just a guess on my part.

[JimInCal]

I haven't found any recent news on Cityscape. Has anyone heard anything of late? The last posted news story on the Cityscape site is from 10-13. It would be nice to get an update as to how things are progressing.

[JimInCal]

I recently posted Patriot's Square Park to the "What's the Most Shameful Monstrocity in Your City..." thread:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=2447367

I have been so focussed on what could be done with the hideous brick-oven of a park that I forgot the treasures that surround it.

As I looked for photos to add to the post I noticed that the surroundings of the park are arguably the most beautiful in DT Phoenix. There are the Luhrs Building and Luhrs Tower to the south, the historic City Hall to the west, the sleek/classy Renaissance Center to the north and whatever Cityscape will grace us with when built to the east. :fingerscrossed: I think the redesigned park calls for some REFLECTING POOLS! Take a look:

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/6237/patriopkxn9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/1863/lurhsbldgpark2xy9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/754/lurhstwrparkir6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7249/oldphxhalljt8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/3374/rensqrparkviewqc5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[loftlovr]

The buildings surrounding the park are wonderful!
I do hope this gets eccentuated (sp?) with the redesign...

[HX_Guy]

An email I received from John Bacon on the status of everything...

"We are currently working through the public input process with the Parks Board on the re-deign of Patriots Park. There are a series of public meetings that will be held during the next few months. I would encourage you to participate in these if you are available. We hope to be able to announce the dates/locations very soon.

We continue to talk to a targeted group of retailers, but have no plans for additional announcements at this time.

Progress continues on the design of the parking garage.

We hope to have additional updates on the Web site soon.

Thanks."

[sundevilgrad]

This was posted recently by ArtDecoFan on the Phoenix Development thread:


CityScape Boutique Hotel
________________________________________

This is the boutique hotel chain that the RED Development team plans to bring to CityScape:
Quote:
TWELVE Hotels & Residences
http://www.twelvehotels.com/Home.do

Welcome to a boutique hotel experience like no other: the experience of living in a luxury urban condominium without paying luxury hotel rates. At your fingertips is everything to make your stay perfect, the comforts of home with the excitement of being away from home. Our variable-touch service allows you to customize your stay by choosing to interact with our highly trained & professional staff or by requesting services on line all from the comforts of your suite. Service, comfort and choice. TWELVE offers the ultimate hotel experience.

About Us

TWELVE Hotels and Residences combines a premier boutique hotel with upscale urban condominiums, offering condominium homes at attractive price points and hotel suites at business rates. The coexistence of hotel and condominium creates synergies in amenities and services that are seldom found outside the luxury tier. The company was established in 2004, under the umbrella of Novare Group Holdings, LLC, a leading developer of high-rise condominiums in several US markets.

TWELVE brings together a team of accomplished executives with combined decades of history in the lodging and hospitality industry and broad experience gained across several hotel brands. The strong and multi-faceted background of our management creates a knowledge base that ensures that our guests will find at TWELVE Hotels the comfort, convenience and service they seek.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vertex
Nothing on their website talks about building in Cityscape. What's your source?

learn to read. All of the CityScape info states that they want to bring 12 into the development.

To be honest, I didn't even know about TWELVE Hotels until a couple weeks ago when the owners of Orpheum Lofts were invited to a private mixer with the development team.

A couple other interesting notes that the developers shared with us...

They are in discussions to anchor the retail with a Barneys New York store. It appears Barneys is interested in locating at an urban retail environment in downtown Phoenix.

Also, they would love to have an AJ's Bistro outdoor cafe spilling out onto the new redesigned park. They discussed how popular the AJ's Bistro (that kind of spills out onto the parking lot) is at the Central and Camelback location and that it would be great to create that kind of atmosphere downtown at the park.



Pretty cool news. Sounds like the braintrust for Cityscape is still hamering away.

[JimInCal]

In town this week, visiting the family for Thanksgiving and went DT to take a bunch of pics to share later. I crisscrossed Patriot's Square Park to get some good shots of the surrounding buildings that are so great. The park looked horrible...bald areas where grass should be, non-functioning fountains in waterless basins, the odor of urine throughout and at least 20 transients sleeping, sitting with dazed looks or milling slowly about. It was truly depressing. I can't wait for this thing to be leveled. I wonder what will happen to the transient population there. What an awful way to live. I can't imagine if $billion is invested in Cityscape that the city and developers will allow the public areas to decline like the park has. I read a recent article that interviewed the architect of the park. He was defending it and said that it still worked as intended as a grand civic gathering place...yah, for the down-on-their luck and mentally unstable homeless. I couldn't see holding any kind of rally, art show or concert-in-the park as the stench was nausiating. Sorry to be such a downer but this was eyeopening and, I thought, important to share. This is great area of DT and a project like Cityscape would transform it in many ways. Maybe the bail-bonds place in the Luhs Tower will become a nice sidewalk cafe once Cityscape becomes a reality. Here's hoping for much greater things :happysad:

[sundevilgrad]

I've noticed everything you mentioned in your post JimInCal. I won't even use the PSP garage anymore (even with it's proximity to USAirway Center and Chase Field) because of those reasons.

I encourage everyone to post some of your thoughts on the Cityscape website (www.downtownphoenixrising.org , i believe) and to sign up on the support list.

[combusean]

^ It could have worked, if the City had actually maintained it. Imagine a towering tree in every single one of the planters "grown together" as had been originally envisioned.

That the PSP garage leaked like a sieve and the park was built preceding one of Phoenix's worst recessions was its major reason for failure. When they built the thing, it worked quite well for a while--light shows, music events, but as money dried up so too did the park. They overseeded the lawns, cut back on programming, closed the bathrooms, and eventually the trees died off and it became the brick oven it is today.

After numerous sunday rallies at that park, believe it or not, I started to actually appreciate the design for what it tried to accomplish. But the overuse of circular forms--intended as the architect put it to "break up the grid" and its overall understatedness made it seem more like an anachronistic incarnate of a '60s acid trip than a true central square.

I can only hope that the new PSP is actually maintained, funded, and visited. PSP was originally envisioned to solve the problems at the "zeroblock"--homeless amidst the pawnshops. The pawnshops are gone, yet, the homeless remain. Hopefully they might actually move on with yet another version.

Some images in memoriam

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1766.jpg

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1767.jpg

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1768.jpg

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1772.jpg

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1774.jpg

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1775.jpg

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1776.jpg

http://savepatriotspark.org/files/CRW_1777.jpg

[CPVLIVE]

I agree with Combusean. Nothing wrong with the park that maintenance funds and the occasional police presence wouldn't cure. I kinda like the look of it and if the trees were mature it would make a huge impact. If this were in my neighborhood in lower downtown Denver it would be overrun with dog-walkers and would still smell like urine. Seriously, if enough people lived near this place your problems would be solved (people become involved once they consider a place "their" neighborhood). It's like Iraq - you can't conquer it with air power alone , you have to have boots on the ground.

[combusean]

Ditto. Trees planted any number of years in the recovery since the recession could have made PSP and the rest of downtown infinitely more hospitable than they are now.

The City understands this need, no doubt, but it seems there is no medium between going out with a jackhammer tomorrow vs having an extensive, expensive public process that might in many years transform Phoenix's desperately obsolete streets and sidewalks vis a vis 2nd Avenue--like they can't take a walk down ANY downtown street to know that it needs shade, yet Urban Form is taking two years to do exactly that.

Block by block, step by step. Hopefully CityScape will bring us three of both closer to that elusive ideal.

[HooverDam]

Even with mature trees and better maintenance, PSP is still a brick oven. Not a very good idea in Phoenix, AZ.

[HX_Guy]

RED Development LLC hired Omaha, Neb.-based Bozell as the advertising agency for its $900 million multiuse CityScape project in downtown Phoenix.
Working with Bozell's Scottsdale office, the CityScape developers have directed the agency to educate retailers and restaurant owners outside the Valley about the Phoenix market in general and the downtown specifically.
CityScape is a proposed four-tower project with residential, office, retail and hotel components spanning First Avenue to the west, Second Street to the east, Washington Street to the north and Jefferson Street to the south.

[Edifice]

I have read several posts regarding the height of some of the CityScape buildings. Most mention a 400' limit and several posters have suggested sending emails to the developers to make a plea for an "iconic" type of building or at least to consider increasing height on one or two towers to 500 feet. Is there any news to report on this?

[sundevilgrad]

Most mention a 400' limit and several posters have suggested sending emails to the developers to make a plea for an "iconic" type of building or at least to consider increasing height on one or two towers to 500 feet. Is there any news to report on this?

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the zoning height in that block is 550ft. Can someone back me up on this, I don't have the time to look at the zoning ordinances this evening. :shrug:

[oliveurban]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that the zoning height in that block is 550ft. Can someone back me up on this ...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/metro_phx/Phoenix/downtownheightzonemap1.jpg

Sean and I have both posted this before in other threads, but it should be reposted in this one as well for those who haven't seen it. It gives a good idea of particular height limits allowed for new buildings in the immediate downtown area (* sea-level subtracted):

[JimInCal]

:previous: I just spent 40 minutes trying to find the specific elevation for this area of downtown. The ground elevation would need to be subtracted from the allowable building height above mean sea-level allowed of 1,575-1,600 for the Cityscape plots. This would give us the allowable building height for the project.

I could only find average elevations for the city and these varied depending on the site. Anyone have access to a topo site? I found one that wanted $50/year to get access. :shrug:

[HX_Guy]

I'm trying to find it too and not having much luck. I might drive there sometime this week and see what the navigation unit says.

[Upward]

If you have Google Earth, you can find out the elevation of any specific point just by putting the mouse pointer on it. This area is 1,083' above sea level (and since downtown is so flat, all of it is probably within + or - 10' of that).

[HX_Guy]

Great idea! It looks like Patriot's Square and the block directly east are at 1083', which means something could be built to 517' and the third block east of that is 1086', or a building with a height of 489'. Any of the blocks would be capable of carrying a new Phoenix tallest.

[JimInCal]

DOH! I downloaded Google Earth a while back but didn't play with it much and didn't notice the elevation feature. I hate it when I find out I had the power the whole time. :doh:

[HX_Guy]

** NEW** PUBLIC WORKSHOP – December 11, 6 p.m.

This is your chance to be heard on what you want to see happen to Patriots Square!

Many of you have been asking when and how you could participate in the public process to redesign Patriots Square Park. Here is your first chance!



The City of Phoenix has set the first Public Workshop to discuss the redesign and integration of Patriots Square into CityScape for MONDAY, DECEMBER 11 at 6 P.M. AT THE PHOENIX CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS.



At this meeting, you will have the opportunity to provide your input on design, programming and integration. This public workshop is open to anyone interested in creating a new Patriots Square. Plan to attend and bring a friend!

[HX_Guy]

Looks like a permit has been issued for CityScape on 12/01/06.

Permit ADDR-060700

Description/Scope of Work: ADDRESS PLAN

SITE ADDRESS:1 E. WASHINGTON ST.(THIS ADDRESS IS ONLY ASSIGNED FOR CLASS A OFFICE BUILDING OVER RETAIL).*MBRY 12-1-06* QS:10-27 ZIP:85003

BUILDING NUMBERS:

SUITE NUMBERS:

COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT:
Address will be available for permit issuance when lot division or plat is complete and Maricopa County Assessor's Parcel Numbers (APN) have been received or when all civil/site requirements have been satisfied.

A separate site/floor plan submittal to Counter 7 is required for building, unit, or suite number assignments.


Not really sure what all this means :p but hey, something is happening in the right direction it seems.

[JimInCal]

HX_GUY posted this a few days ago but the official city site states that written comments can be faxed or e-mailed before hand. The forum had some worthy ideas concerning the park incorporation within Cityscape. Its a good opportunity for us to be heard. Here's the link:

http://phoenix.gov/NEWSREL/0512patriotssquare.html

Dec. 5, 2006

Phoenix Parks and Recreation Hosts Community Forum on Patriots Square Park

The Phoenix Parks and Recreation Department will be hosting and facilitating a community meeting on the redesign of Patriots Square Park, from 6 to 7:30 p.m. Monday, Dec. 11, at Phoenix City Council Chambers, 200 W. Jefferson St.

The meeting will be an opportunity for those interested in the park and downtown area to hear an overview of CityScape, a mixed residential and commercial development project slated to be built in the area of the park. Participants also will be able to learn details of the public process, see a Parks Department presentation on the park site and participate in a discussion facilitated by department staff. Representatives from RED Development, the CityScape developer, also will be on hand to participate in discussions.

Those wishing to submit written comments on Patriots Square can submit them via fax to 602-534-3787, or by e-mail online at phoenix.gov/downtown/patriots.html. All comments should be submitted with the subject line Patriots Square Input.

[JimInCal]

The e-mail link on the city's page to send input on the park design does not work but they do provide a fax number as well. I just faxed my input and encourage all on the forum who have strong opinions on the park's next incarnation to do the same. They ask people to state Patriot's Square Input at the top of the page. The fax number is 602-534-3787.

They plan four general public meetings over the next few months with a final plan presentation expected February 22, 2007. Here's hopin for something grand! :rolleyes:

[HX_Guy]

The City of Phoenix has put together a pretty informative website related to CityScape, which can be found here: http://phoenix.gov/downtown/patriots.html

It shows a timeline related to the redesign of the Patriot's Square Park. That's the good news. The bad news? Looks like until Feb. 22, 2007 until they will have a plan finalized, which means that new designs for the project will probably take a few months more after that...and groundbreaking? Who knows...probably summer 2007 at the earliest?

[loftlovr]

http://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/NEWSREL/0512patriotssquare.html

Phoenix Parks and Recreation Hosts Community Forum on Patriots Square Park

The Phoenix Parks and Recreation Department will be hosting and facilitating a community meeting on the redesign of Patriots Square Park, from 6 to 7:30 p.m. Monday, Dec. 11, at Phoenix City Council Chambers, 200 W. Jefferson St.

The meeting will be an opportunity for those interested in the park and downtown area to hear an overview of CityScape, a mixed residential and commercial development project slated to be built in the area of the park. Participants also will be able to learn details of the public process, see a Parks Department presentation on the park site and participate in a discussion facilitated by department staff. Representatives from RED Development, the CityScape developer, also will be on hand to participate in discussions.

Those wishing to submit written comments on Patriots Square can submit them via fax to 602-534-3787, or by e-mail online at phoenix.gov/downtown/patriots.html. All comments should be submitted with the subject line Patriots Square Input.

Media Contacts:
David Urbinato 602-262-4994
Pager 602-673-5681
Toni DiJorio 602-495-0341

[HooverDam]

Did anyone make it out to the meeting they had last night? I was on my way down there when a friend called and offered me dinner, so I didn't go. If anyone went and can provide a recap, I for one would be very interested.

[JimInCal]

This really should be on the CityScape thread but it fits in with the general conversation we are having concerning the changing face of DT Phoenix. This is a conversation with one of the RED partners found on the CityScape site, under the News/Media section. It was added on 12-8 so it's recent. It fairly succinctly sums up what many of us hope CityScape will mean to DT Phoenix. I have bolded things that I think are worthy of extra attention. Comments please. :yes:

Mike Ebert,
RED Development
www.reddevelopment.com

Visit any Arizona drugstore or airport gift shop and you’ll find racks of postcards featuring cacti, sunsets, howling coyotes and the Grand Canyon. Mike Ebert hopes to add one more photo to the display—CityScape.

Ebert, a managing and founding partner of RED Development, hopes CityScape, a 2.5 million-plus-square-foot downtown development, will be the iconic project for all of Phoenix and its skyline will serve as postcard fodder for years to come. “When people are flying over the airport, they will say ‘What’s that?’ as they touch down near downtown Phoenix. This is the opportunity for downtown Phoenix to have a heart and soul.”

The three-block, Copper Square downtown project is one of the largest private investments in the state’s history—nearly $1billion to create a thriving urban development. CityScape will offer residential units, a boutique hotel, 550,000 square feet of Class-A office, 250,000 square feet of retail, more than two and a half acres of pedestrian-friendly open space and three Light Rail stops. Phase I is set to open spring 2009 and the remaining construction planned for a 2011 completion.

“Consumers want an experience now.” He says. “(CityScape’s) niche will be the one place in Arizona to have a true urban experience.”

Ebert’s vision for an urban destination perfectly matched downtown’s renaissance as the Phoenix Convention Center expansion, Arizona State University campus, University of Arizona Medical School and other projects began to take form. Building an urban hub required the collaboration of commercial real estate leaders like Cardon Development Group, Baron Collier Companies and Atlanta’s Novare Group. Ebert says downtown previously focused on government, law and banking. Now, as the Arizona Biomedical Campus and ASU campus progress, Phoenix can get the “creative type” downtown.

“Our timing couldn’t be better,” says Ebert. “CityScape can embrace diversity; suburbia tends to be very homogenous.”

Ebert’s youthful looks seem to contradict his well-established reputation throughout the state. He, with three colleagues, formed RED Development in 1995.

Select purveyors A.J.’s Fine Foods and P.F. Changs Bistro are the first retailers to commit to the project and be part of the downtown entertainment attraction.

The development will look progressive and contemporary, intermixed with an outdoorsy quality to satisfy pedestrian needs.

“There is no central spot downtown,” says Ebert. “Our goal is when someone says, ‘Let’s meet downtown,’ it’s at Central Avenue and Washington Street—at CityScape.”

[PHX31]

Interesting... and I'm glad RED is being so confident. But, the only way that CityScape will be fodder on postcards, or recognizable from the air, is if it is architecturally significant and a new tallest in Phoenix. If it is 3-4 pretty cool towers equal in height, it will be homogenous, which is exactly what he mocks about suburbia and says CityScape won't be.

Funny, many of us have posted comments on the CityScape website that were published where we hammer the point that the buildings need to be significant, and one needs to be the tallest in Phoenix for CityScape to really "work". It was even mentioned that there would be a windfall by being so recognizable on pictures and in TV, on postcards, and newscasts... maybe they're actually reading the comments and taking them to heart.

Seriously, if CityScape brings a new tallest to Phoenix, and a cool one to boot, I think we'd all be happy with the amount of construction we've been given downtown for at least a decade.

[Hysonk]

Anyone go to the Patriot's Park/Cityscape meeting held last night?

[HX_Guy]

I did, and left early. It wasn't really what I or anyone there expected. It was a meeting where you were supposed to write down your comments and suggestions, and no voiced comments or suggestions were allowed. I think most people were dissapointed because they expected something else from it. I know I did...at least some new information on the park, or the project overall...but it was really the same old thing, sort of a meeting where you discuss other meetings.

The supporters of the park were there (aka hippies) and really I don't know if they annoy others as much as they annoy me, but it seems like they just have this agenda to just fight the system simply to fight it. Even in written comments in the "booklet" which was passed out, they kept raving on about how the park should stay public etc...and that has already been established that it will...let it go.

On a bright note, I did go to Cibo afterwards, my first time there, and it was great.

[combusean]

Even in written comments in the "booklet" which was passed out, they kept raving on about how the park should stay public etc...and that has already been established that it will...let it go.

The written comments in that booklet were the Parks Board meeting minutes from 9/29, not anything that had been sent as part of the public process period.

And besides, the issue isn't settled. I was there and spoke with Mike Ebert about the ownership issue and he said he's "pretty sure" it will remain a public park, while informing me the benefits of it becoming private. Yet a parks board member told me that there were already agreements in the works between RED and the City covering its maintenance and funding, so I don't know who to believe any more. For many basic questions, we get three different answers from the Downtown Development Office, RED, and the Parks Department.

John Chan, director of the DDO, told one of the SPP co-organizers that he's certain the park will become "an acre, acre and a half" The Parks Boards guiding principles are just that, not binding, and it is murky at best that they will actually be upheld, tho a Parks Board member seemed firm on them.

Time will tell. Personally, I'm done fighting--I've sent my comments in and am curious to see what they will come up with by the next meeting.

You are quick to dismiss a complicated issue, HX_Guy. If all departments within the City and RED were on the same page, there wouldn't be a continuing stink from some of the savepatriotspark.org people.

[HX_Guy]

I'm just frustrated with the whole process. True I have never used this "park" and will never in the current state, and I'm not one that would go rally and protest in a public park.
I'm sure I'm looking at this whole thing as a much simpler process then it really is, but I see a developer that wants to take two empty parking lots and a useless park and turn it into something...and instead of digging the ground, they have to wait months and months over issues on a park.

I'm suprised RED isn't fed up yet and is saying "You know what, screw this...it's not worth it". I guess they must really believe the end product will be worth it.

[kevininlb]

There's a good letter in today's Arizona Republic (Phoenix section) about CityScape, essentially suggesting residents get involved in public forums. I couldn't find it online or I'd post it, but at least thought I'd say "it's there" if you want to check it out.

[sundevilgrad]

The 2nd public workshop on the future of Patriots park is scheduled for Jan. 11th... Here's the Cityscape link with the details...
http://www.downtownphxrising.org/

[HX_Guy]

On behalf of the CityScape development team, we would like to wish you a Happy New Year and thank your for your support in 2006. This year will surely be an exciting one with the start of construction on CityScape scheduled to begin mid-year. But first, we continue to work on the redesign of Patriot s Park - and that's where we need your help!

PATRIOT S PARK PUBLIC MEETING #2:
WHEN: Thursday, January 11, 6 p.m.
WHERE: Phoenix City Hall , Assembly Rooms B & C, 200 W. Jefferson
WHAT: PUBLIC MEETING TO DISCUSS THE REDESIGN OF PATRIOT S PARK

The workshop will provide a presentation on progress to date, a verbal public comment period, and the opportunity for residents and stakeholders to provide written input to the city and the development team on this crucial project for the future of downtown Phoenix .

We need your public comment and support at this meeting to make sure Patriot s Park becomes what you want to see in downtown Phoenix . Plan to attend and bring your friends!

UPCOMING MEETINGS

January 25 - Parks Board Meeting
February 8 - Public Meeting #3

Please mark your calendar and plan to attend these important meetings.

We will contact you with specific times and locations, or check our website at www.downtownPXrising.org for more information on meetings or on the project itself.

Again, thank you for your support. We look forward to working with you to bring this exciting new opportunity to downtown Phoenix .

Mike Ebert
Managing Partner
RED Development
Scottsdale, Arizona 85250

[JimInCal]

WooHoo!!! :tup: They've actually stated a mid-year start. I might just make the trip for the groundbreaking ceremony:D

[Vicelord John]

I will definitely use Patriot park if they turn it into something cool. I'd love to be able to go there with my friends and play flag football or something of the like.

[HX_Guy]

It would definately be cool to have something where you can do that, but I don't think the area is big enough for something like that.

[PHX31]

I will definitely use Patriot park if they turn it into something cool. I'd love to be able to go there with my friends and play flag football or something of the like.

What building or where did you end up moving to downtown?

[Vicelord John]

What building or where did you end up moving to downtown?

I feel that with the poor choice of username, (my full name) it would be ill advised of me to post where I live, but I'll post pictures of the interior soon. It's way more pimp than I am deserving of.

[PHX31]

Just tell us, you have to since you've mentioned your new pad like 80 times already and of course we're all curious since it is apparently downtown. Who the fuck is going to waste their time finding you in whatever building you live in, then come up to you and say, "Hey, I'm from SSP too, thanks to your user name I know where you live now. I'm just stopping by to say hi, see ya."

I'm sure people could find out anyway, not that anyone would want to.

[Vicelord John]

people read this board who aren't members ;)

I have a good friend who lost his car because he went on an internet board and posted pictures of his car with a his house behind it. Sure enough, the pictures had the street sign and someone found his car. I have only mentioned it twice that I know of.

[JI5]

people read this board who aren't members ;)

I have a good friend who lost his car because he went on an internet board and posted pictures of his car with a his house behind it. Sure enough, the pictures had the street sign and someone found his car. I have only mentioned it twice that I know of.

How do you know it was because the picture was posted online?? Could it be his car happened to get stolen, regardless of the fact the picture was there..? or did someone log on after the fact and write THANKS FOR THE CAR. I WAS ABLE TO FIND IT BECAUSE OF THE PICTURE!

P.S. Copper Square isn't that big of an area... My high school was bigger, so we've already got you zero'd in.

[HooverDam]

I'll be moving downtown in February, into the Roosevelt Square Apartments, building #2, my name is Will Novak. Feel free to rob me if you'd like.

See, the internet isn't such a scary place after all.

[Vicelord John]

you guys are sooooo cooool. Make fun of someone because they dont want to post personal information where anyone can read it. Can I have your credit card numbers and social security number too? thx

[J Church]

The guy has every right to his privacy. Move on.

[PHX602]

Sounds like someone needs a little Mossberg in their life.:D ;)

[HX_Guy]

I attended the Patriot's Park meeting tonight and found it to be much better then the last one, very informative.

There still seems to be a feeling from the supporters of Patriot's Square that the developers are not listening to them and to the public, while the developers are pushing that they are listening and kept repeating themselves, almost pleading that they truely are listening and don't know how to show it and make people believe them.

Personally I do think they are listening from what they have said and presented. They created a list compiled from 94 pages of comments from the public and took out the key wishes of the public and put the in a list...

Events
Entertainment
Connectivity
Shade
Destination

The list is much longer but as was mentioned at the meeting, the park is only so big and only so much can be done with it.

They did state that it will not be a park with a softball field or football field.

It does seem like they are going toward a direction of a "destination" and from the pictures they presented of other spaces around the country, it looks like it will end up as a public space but with a hardscapes, fountains, art sculptures, etc...not large grass areas with huge trees where you can lay out a blanket and have a picnic. It will probably end up looking something like the center of Desert Ridge or the center area of Kierland Commons or the new Westgate in front of the AMC.

Personally I wish we could of had a large green area with grass and trees, I envisioned a mini Central Park NYC but there clearly isn't enough space.

They mentioned that a rendering has not yet been put together as they are still in the process of listening to the public and after the Feb 8th meeting, a rendering of the park will be put together sometime after that.

There were lots of comments, most, if not all, supporting the CityScape project. There was still some opposition to it becoming "high end" and that diversity need to be maintained which to me is a bunch of crap. I agree diversity is good...but what diversity is there now that it has to be maintained? There's homeless bums there and really not much else. Claiming "diversity must be maintained" sounds like beating around the bush from saying "We don't want the bums to be relocated" If there was true diversity down there now, we would see bums with the rich there together, but I definately don't see that many of one group living and shopping in the downtown area.

Alright...I think that's about it on the meeting and my thoughts.

[combusean]

Agreed ... if there was a forum for affordability, homelessness, whatever, the Patriot's Square meeting was not it. Any discussion about what CityScape is or what it will bring should only be discussed as part of "activating the edges."

Anyways, I was very happy to see a full house, and the 94 page comment book (one of which I snagged, i'll see about getting a PDF up of it tomorrow) means that my earlier fears of a disjointed process can be put to rest. Given the turnout and what I read, anything they come up with has to pass muster.

To that end, I am pleased to hear the development team getting it with regards to shade, openness, etc (what PSP is not), and Jay Thorne's promise to "meet or exceed" the guiding principles of the park's board. However, it is clear from this and previous meetings that Thorne doesn't hold the public design process in high regard.

The retail question is important--they could have all the critical features, but placement of the retail component could make or break the design. Certainly, some amount should be on there, and they will etch out whatever they can, but questions about what they intend to build shouldn't be shoo'd under the rug. As I pointed out in the meeting, it's a basic math problem--the cost of the new park has to be below the equivalent land value of whatever they want to build, otherwise they would have dropped the idea of doing anything on the block.

RED has alluded to this, but I have to believe that building some sort of iconic park/plaza will be worth it in the end, especially when they get their $100 million check.

[HX_Guy]

I think as was mentioned at the meeting, a successful Patriot's Park will help the whole CityScape development so it is in their best interest that this is something that meets what the people want. If they can put together a park or square that will attract people to it...and CityScape happens to be across the street, people will certainly cross the street to it.

Another awesome thing, and I'm not sure why it didn't click until I heard it tonight...light rail will run on the west and east side of Patriot's Square as well as the south and north of CityScape. How awesome is that going to be...hanging out in the park, maybe grabbing something to eat...seeing the trains go by...

CityScape needs to get this right, both the park and the rest of the development, because thousands of people are going to pass by it everyday...and if they see something they like out the train's window, they will come back to that location and enjoy it.

[JimInCal]

:previous: HX, great point. Cityscape is surrounded by light rail tracks. It will truly be the highest visibility project in DT Phoenix. That bodes well for it's success, as long as they don't blow it. I cannot imagine they will design something that isn't transit-freindly, pedestrian-friendly and a magnet destination for residents and tourists in the region. There have been public forums, substantial press coverage and a lot of hand-holding (and financial incentive) by the city to ensure this is done right. I am stoked about seeing the final design...just a couple more months :psycho:

[kaneui]

Interesting proposed rendering for Cityscape from the DFD ConoyerHedrick site--in their version, PSP would covered with a sprawling retail mall stretching over the three blocks (yellow), with residential (green), commercial (blue), and hotel (pink) towers as shown.

Note: DFDCH is not listed as part of the current development team, per the Cityscape website.


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a228/kaneui/CityScape-DFDCH.jpg

[HooverDam]

^Yah, thats an old rendering. I do like that it still has a hotel on the Collier pad though, hope that comes about eventually.

[JimInCal]

:previous: HooverDam, I know this isn't a Cityscape-related issue but since you mentioned it...I wonder what the hold-up is for the hotel at the Collier Center. With the major expansion of the convention center and the Collier Center's great location, by the convention center and across from the arena and baseball stadium, I would think it a no-brainer to build that hotel. I think the convention center expansion will be a great success and will all but guarantee high hotel occupancy rates. Since there are not near enough hotel rooms to support the convention center within walking distance, it seems logical that a Collier Center hotel be built now. Oh yah, and its right on the Light Rail line. :sly: Any thoughts anyone???

[loftlovr]

I concur!

[sundevilgrad]

I honestly can't believe that we haven't heard anything about that site.

[HX_Guy]

The Parks Board unanimously approved the public vision for Patriot's Square that was presented and discussed thus far.

It was sort of funny because one of the people on the board was a bit confused himself and asked "What exactly are we voting on here?"

Basically they approved that the development team can go ahead and use the ideas gathered so far and finally design a park.

I hope the next, and final, public meeting will be much much shorter and that there will actually be some renderings of what the park will look like.