[GreatTallNorth2]

Which Canadian city will be the next to have Light Rail or Rapid Transit (not BRT)?

Cities that have Metro, Light Rail already:
Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa

Cities that could be next:
Kitchener-Waterloo, Hamilton, Quebec, Victoria, or Winnipeg

My vote goes to Kitchener-Waterloo. They have more than just a desire for LRT. They have a plan and a corridor they have outlined and they are doing studies. This is one of the reasons this city is growing so much...because they are progressive, unlike my city - London.

[CorporateWhore]

Ottawa doesn't actually have an LRT yet right? I thought it was still in the planning phase.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Ottawa doesn't actually have an LRT yet right? I thought it was still in the planning phase.

They definately have LRT. It is not extensive, but I think they are planning on extending it.

http://www.octranspo.com/O-Train/Cathy_picture/OTrain&BusGreenboro.jpg

[malek]

Montreal has light rail?!?!

when did that happen?

[CorporateWhore]

They definately have LRT. It is not extensive, but I think they are planning on extending it.


ha, i clearly haven't been paying enough attention to Ottawa!

[waterloowarrior]

Ottawa has a small diesel LRT line. They will upgrade this to an electric LRT line soon; the city has had a bidding process, awarded the contract and construction should ASAP, but politics is getting in the way and the project may be cancelled :(

[Distill3d]

Montreal has light rail?!?!

when did that happen?

montreal has a subway, technically, thats LRT.

I'd honestly like to see Calgary's get finished before anyone else gets their LRT system up and running, but thats just me being selfish.

I don't see why waterloo-kitchener wouldn't have their LRT systems built as exstension of Toronto's system. perhaps thats just my ignorance, but it would make some sense.

[harls]

Montreal has light rail?!?!

when did that happen?




er...

Montreal's had light rail for quite a while now.. I used to take it every day in 2004.. and I'm pretty sure the tunnel they bored through the mountain in 1912 has been used for the same thing..?

malek.. c'mon.. deux montagnes line??? Montreal-Rigaud? Montreal-Dorion?

[Riise]

montreal has a subway, technically, thats LRT.

Subways are actually considered to be heavy rail.

[Jets4Life]

Won't be Winnipeg. They have been talking about ti for the last 40 years, and nothing has been done.

[SteelTown]

Next year Hamilton will have a new BRT system running along the Beeline route from Eastgate Square to McMaster. I think I heard the city will change that BRT Beeline route into LRT within 15-20 years or earlier depending on ridership.

[malek]

er...

Montreal's had light rail for quite a while now.. I used to take it every day in 2004.. and I'm pretty sure the tunnel they bored through the mountain in 1912 has been used for the same thing..?

malek.. c'mon.. deux montagnes line??? Montreal-Rigaud? Montreal-Dorion?

this heavy rail / light rail confuses me.

I just checked the definitions on wikipedia and deux-montagnes and all other lines except the metro are heavy rails.

i always thought light rail were for tramways like in toronto.

[harls]

^ but deux-montagnes is all electric.. I can vouch for that.

I'm sure the other lines are light rail too, no worries.

[waterloowarrior]

I don't see why waterloo-kitchener wouldn't have their LRT systems built as exstension of Toronto's system. perhaps thats just my ignorance, but it would make some sense.
The Waterloo Region is doing a rapid transit study right now... they are considering each techology, but it seems likely that they will go for an LRT system. Of course they will then have to find funding.

Toronto is very far from K-W, about 100 KM by train, so the LRTs will not be built as an extension. The Go Train may be extended there one day to connect the two systems. A group of area cities recently put together a business proposal to extend GO Transit there or add a separate service between Georgetown and Breslau (eventually to Kitchener, not 100% sure on the details). There will likely be an K-W LRT connection to the GO Line.

[alps]

I think our mayor was elected on an LRT platform, but I haven't heard of him saying anything about it since. There's also some sort of light rail committee set up, but I doubt we'll get anything anytime soon.

[m0nkyman]

Victoria already has a right of way ready to go if they convert the E&N, and that's the most brutal part of the process of building an LRT, so that's where I'll put my bets, what with the Western Communities exploding at the rate they are.

[malek]

^ but deux-montagnes is all electric.. I can vouch for that.

I'm sure the other lines are light rail too, no worries.

i know i take it everyday now, its electric, but the same railtrack can be used for merchandise and other heavy equipment.

[gilpel]

This is the proposed Light Rail Transit Quebec City as...

http://images.cyberpresse.ca/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CP&Date=20061024&Category=CPSOLEIL&ArtNo=61025007&Ref=AR&Profile=5785&MaxW=700

[1ajs]

Won't be Winnipeg. They have been talking about ti for the last 40 years, and nothing has been done.
ya well we took a step clser to it with the city buying a old rail line in the north east section of winnipeg....

o and winnipeg almost had a subway...
http://www.truwinnipeg.org/maps.html

[Taller Better]

o and winnipeg almost had a subway...
http://www.truwinnipeg.org/maps.html

That was such a cool link! I had never heard of that proposal before...
I wish they had built at least part of it. It was perhaps too extensive for a
small city, but a couple of lines would have been amazing! Especially in winter.:tup:

[mr.x]

Victoria is planning for LRT in 10-15 years.
http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/vic-lrt-routes-map2.jpg

[Hootch]

This is the proposed Light Rail Transit Quebec City as...

http://images.cyberpresse.ca/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CP&Date=20061024&Category=CPSOLEIL&ArtNo=61025007&Ref=AR&Profile=5785&MaxW=700

WOW that is sweet! I love that the tracks are paved so nicely.

[malek]

WOW that is sweet! I love that the tracks are paved so nicely.

IF it happens.

[Nouvellecosse]

I think our mayor was elected on an LRT platform, but I haven't heard of him saying anything about it since. There's also some sort of light rail committee set up, but I doubt we'll get anything anytime soon.
Really? I thought the mayor was elected on a commuter rail platform? There was a long running suggestion of using the railcut to transport commuters from Bedford/ Sackville to central.

Seems unlikely now though, considering CN doesn't want the city using it, and has removed one of the set of rails from the corridor, and the Metro Link service was created as a compromise...

[someone123]

MetroLink mostly serves different parts of the city than commuter rail would have. The Bedford ferry will handle a bit more, but still not areas like Rockingham/Hemlock Ravine/whatever you want to call it.

I think Halifax needs something better than buses for the peninsula and nearby areas like Clayton Park, but I'm not sure how such a service could reasonably be implemented, particularly with the kind of road network that exists in the suburbs. Roads like Lacewood, Dunbrack, and Larry Uteck Boulevard should have been built with planned transit ROWs from the beginning.

[Nouvellecosse]

"I think Halifax needs something better than buses for the peninsula and nearby areas like Clayton Park..."

Honestly, I just don't agree. Halifax is still too small for rail transit. Sure, we have a few traffic "issues", but nothing that increased transit ridership couldn't handle. And the best way to do that is convenience: more routes, and more frequency. Sure, one could argue that LRT would derease travel times, but so would more routes, since many routes r very indirect due to trying to service too great an area.

I also find the bus NVH levels to be very high, it would be nice if we could get some nicer ones as the older ones r replaced.

[DrJoe]

York Region is planning LRT in the 3rd phase of their Viva system.

[miketoronto]

I would look at Waterloo Region. They already have started a limited stop bus service that has won awards from Transport Canada as a Urban Transport Showcase program. This express bus route is a primer for future LRT, which the region really is pushing for.


http://www.grt.ca/web/transit.nsf/5f22897663adffc585256e5a005c53df/b87230fe20d8ed5b85256f4e005adad2/Body/0.188!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif
http://www.grt.ca/web/transit.nsf/5f22897663adffc585256e5a005c53df/b719b358a4be8bbb85256f4e005b07c6/Body/5.3C38!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif

[begratto]

^ but deux-montagnes is all electric.. I can vouch for that.

I'm sure the other lines are light rail too, no worries.

Electric doesn't mean it's LRT. The Deux-Montagne train is Heavy Rail, not Light Rail.

[Taller Better]

I would not classify suburban trains or subways as being LRT. Streetcars are, though.

[someone123]

Travel times could be improved somewhat by improving the bus routes so that they don't snake around so much but the bottlenecks will still be there, and traffic will still crawl at rush hour. Over time, it will only get worse, and if something better than a bus system is to be built it will take years of planning, land acquisition, etc. It doesn't seem unreasonable to start now, particularly if future rail ROWs could be used for buses.

[newflyer]

Won't be Winnipeg. They have been talking about ti for the last 40 years, and nothing has been done.


oh come on ... I am sure they will conduct yet another study.

You can never have to many studies ... especially for a project you can't afford. Why I have conducted a fesability study on my future ferrari .. its not looking good, but I'm holding out hope the feds will fund it. :rolleyes:

[1ajs]

oh come on ... I am sure they will conduct yet another study.

You can never have to many studies ... especially for a project you can't afford. Why I have conducted a fesability study on my future ferrari .. its not looking good, but I'm holding out hope the feds will fund it. :rolleyes:

mono RAIL was another one that got tossed around winnipeg back in the 70's

[Riise]

How about Airdrie, Cochrane, Lake Chestemere, St. Albert, or Leduc?

I was going to post these cities/towns as a joke but the more I thought about the more it became a possibility. Both Alberta cities are expanding their LRT networks and these towns could be argued to be in the next round of possible extensions. It may seem to be a long time away but with most other cities just doing studies at the moment and putting the building at 10-15 years it's in a similar time frame. I'd hate to see Calgary sprawl even more and I believe extending the LRT into the metro region would make the commute to the bedroom towns such as Airdrie a lot easier. Therefore I could only really see Leduc getting LRT as Edmonton International is located there and it would be logical for Edmonton to connect their airport to the network.

[1ajs]

How about Airdrie, Cochrane, Lake Chestemere, St. Albert, or Leduc?

I was going to post these cities/towns as a joke but the more I thought about the more it became a possibility. Both Alberta cities are expanding their LRT networks and these towns could be argued to be in the next round of possible extensions. It may seem to be a long time away but with most other cities just doing studies at the moment and putting the building at 10-15 years it's in a similar time frame. I'd hate to see Calgary sprawl even more and I believe extending the LRT into the metro region would make the commute to the bedroom towns such as Airdrie a lot easier. Therefore I could only really see Leduc getting LRT as Edmonton International is located there and it would be logical for Edmonton to connect their airport to the network.
ya i think so to...

are they ever gunas build that high speed rail between calgary and edmonton?

[jeffwhit]

^^ Hopefully not, as it would be ridiculous waste of money both in the long and short term. Any money put towards that should be invested in LRT for Calgary and Edmonton. Edmonton is far under-served, and Calgary's LRT is bursting at the seems.

as for the Montreal metro semantics... I think the point is that it's some kind of non-commuter rail system... relax.

[Riise]

^^ Hopefully not, as it would be ridiculous waste of money both in the long and short term. Any money put towards that should be invested in LRT for Calgary and Edmonton. Edmonton is far under-served, and Calgary's LRT is bursting at the seems.

So true! People need to be able to get around each city by train before they can be connected by train. We need to eliminate the intra-city need for a car before we can eliminate the inter-city need. But before the Calgary-Edmonton corridor hijacks this thread let's get back to the original subject matter! I don't know other Canadian cities all to well but I reckon the next city to get LRT will either be Victoria, or a city/town in southern Ontario. With Leduc being a dark horse!

[renthefinn]

You forgot about another existing system. Nelson BC has a streetcar service, though it's historical, at least it is another operating system.http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~wyatt/alltime/pics/nelson-NETSstop.jpg

The BC government just indicated that it's gonna announce an increase in rapid transit funding in BC next year. I hope that means other services in BC besides just the lower mainland, I'd like to see the ball get rolling on something in Victoria. Vancouver definately can use more though.

[ÉricdeMtl]

One of the other cities in ranks and serious enought to have a LRT (as mentioned before here) is Québec City. Studies in recent years have shown it to be a most feasable project.A recent survey found that 66% of the CMA's population is in favor for that precise project. Altough the only thing making it hard to go ahead any further,is that most of the investment is to be done by the Provincial Government. Its an estimated project of about $650 to $700 Million(if not even more),so for now,the Government wont be contributing any time soon,lack of $$$.

For those interested in the few studies(Francais) related to the project in Québec City,here are a few links: 1.http://www.rtcquebec.ca/_site/documents/applications/pdf/Tramway_Quebec.pdf 2.http://www.transportsviables.org/tramway/index.html

[jeicow]

Mississauga is currently doing a study for LRT along Hurontario. Dundas has come up a few times as a possibility but Hurontario will be the first likely. It will be a while though (no earlier than 2015) but the city is trying to get the transitway up and running which would help, and the new regional terminal at Kipling/

I still think they should re-extend the 501/508 from Long Branch into Port Credit. I doubt it will ever happen but it will be more realistic once Hurontatio is LRT'ed.

[malek]

Electric doesn't mean it's LRT. The Deux-Montagne train is Heavy Rail, not Light Rail.

exactly, CN/CP rails aren't LRT.

[queetz@home]

The BC government just indicated that it's gonna announce an increase in rapid transit funding in BC next year.

Ren, I must have missed that one. When did they indicated that? :sly:

[Arriviste]

Is Ottawa's actually light rail? I was under the impression that it was not.
Personally, Ottawa's is a joke regardless of classification. The train seems so ill suited for its duty. The train is slow, noisy, and feels as though it's better suited for long distance treks. Did Ottawa buy them used or something?

[Doady]

Both light rail and heavy rail can operate with either electric or diesel and use the same tracks, it doesn't matter.

The terms light rail or heavy rail simply refers to the capacity of the trains which is why someone suggest that Montreal's Metro might in fact be light rail, since the trains are very narrow.

For example, Toronto subway trains are 3.125m wide and streetcars around 2.2m wide, and Calgary's light rail trains are 2.6m, while Montreal's Metro trains are only 2.5m wide.

[Arriviste]

/\ That clears it up a bit for me. I ahve heard so many variations on the definition.

[jeremy_haak]

^ They also operate in 9-car trains, which is what makes the biggest difference.

As far as Ottawa's LRT, it really hasn't moved beyond the pilot project stage yet, which was to operated DMUs along an existing track. It was successful enough to convince people that it was worthwhile upgrading it to a dual track, electric solution. Of course, John Baird decided to meddle into things and will likely end up costing the city $80 million or so in penalties.

[Arriviste]

/\ Thats a shame.
Electric will be infinitely better.

[vanman]

Ren, I must have missed that one. When did they indicated that? :sly:

Ya I also heard something about that, I dont remember many details though. It's something about a green cities intiative to encourage BC cities to be more environmentally sustainable by increasing rapid transit + greenways and other things.

[niwell]

Personally, Ottawa's is a joke regardless of classification. The train seems so ill suited for its duty. The train is slow, noisy, and feels as though it's better suited for long distance treks.


Indeed. And there are many people here arguing that instead of a real electric system we should just get more diesel trains. Running on single track at that.

It's quite disheartening actually.

Incidentally, this thread should probabliy just be renamed for 'rail transit' so it doesn't turn into an argument of semantics about what and what isn't light or heavy rail.

[Jared]

Subways are actually considered to be heavy rail.

Actually, you're comparing apples an oranges.


The distinction between Light and Heavy rail is solely on the basis of capacity (which is measured in pphpd, which in turn is affected by things like frequency, how many people/car, and how many cars/train). It has nothing to do with whether it's above ground/at grade/below grade (of whether it has overhead or thirdrail power supply for that matter.)

Edmonton has LRT, despite much of it being underground.
The Yamanote line in Tokyo is HRT, despite being overground.

Theoretically, a LRT could evolve into a HRT if it used wider cars, or lengthened the platforms etc.

Where it gets confusing is there isn't really a standard number to which people say "below this is LRT, above this is HRT", though I think most people would agree that's somewhere in between 30-40k people per hour per direction (pphpd)



Edit: I see Doady already cleared it up a bit, I hadnt read page 2 when I typed this.

[Taller Better]

[QUOTE=Jared]
Edmonton has LRT, despite much of it being underground.
QUOTE]


Can someone refresh my memory... it has been over 20 years since I was
in Edmonton. I remember only a tiny portion of the LRT being underground...
maybe one or two stops. Has something changed to make the underground portion "much" of the total?

[Jared]

[QUOTE=Jared]
Edmonton has LRT, despite much of it being underground.
QUOTE]


Can someone refresh my memory... it has been over 20 years since I was
in Edmonton. I remember only a tiny portion of the LRT being underground...
maybe one or two stops. Has something changed to make the underground portion "much" of the total?

perhaps "much" was a poor choice of words, since I actually have no idea what % of it is underground; it was just the first example that came to mind.

Perhaps the new Canada Line in Vancovuer is a better example. About 1/2 of it is underground, and it is clearly LRT, since it has a capacity of 15,000pphpd.

[feepa]

The portion from Churchill station to University Station is under ground, except for where the LRT crosses the river.
http://www.barp.ca/bus/lrt/edmonton/edmlrtmap.gif
The LRT comes up to ground level just before the recently completed Health Sciences Station.

[Riise]

Actually, you're comparing apples an oranges..

Thanks, that's actually true! I didn't even think about Edmonton's LRT being underground when I posted that. In my head I've tied subways to being heavy rail and never classified underground LRTs as being subways but rather just underground LRTs. So is pphpt the sole decider, isn't weight part of the equation as well?

[jeremy_haak]

I thing fundamentally it comes down to capacity. Besides the heavy rail vehicles (usually) being bigger than LRT vehicles, the number of cars that can be attached is usually significantly higher. Most LRT system run in 3 car train sets, for higher capacity, the limit is usually 4 or 5. This is normally due to block restrictions that limit the maximum length of a single trainset. Heavy rail, being completely grade-separated, usually run in higher groups. On the low end, it may run in 6 car sets, but it's not uncommon to see up to 9 car trainsets. Beyond that point, the physical limits of station spacing and platform size become an obstacle to further lengthening.

[FFX-ME]

ottawa is taking to much time to put their project in effect, they want 4 lines but are still at their pilot project. they say that the first line's study is over but an election is coming and the leader thinks the chosen path isnt good so wants to reevaluate it all over wich means at least 10 more years until they've built the first line.

[SteveP]

Ottawa has a small diesel LRT line. They will upgrade this to an electric LRT line soon; the city has had a bidding process, awarded the contract and construction should ASAP, but politics is getting in the way and the project may be cancelled :(

I thought they had already decided to go ahead with this project? What's the hold up, and how could it be possibly cancelled?? Isn't construction already underway? My buddy in Ottawa told me it was already under construction.

[waterloowarrior]

I thought they had already decided to go ahead with this project? What's the hold up, and how could it be possibly cancelled?? Isn't construction already underway? My buddy in Ottawa told me it was already under construction.

The city council awarded the contract to Siemens and decided to go through with the project according to schedule. However, at the last minute John Baird decided to withold federal funding until after the municipal elections. Now there is a possibility of a new vote that will scrap or heavily modify the line.

construction was supposed to start december 8th; I'm not sure if they are doing surveying, design etc according to this schedule still.
http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/lrt/ns_line/council_reports/reportjun27_en.shtml

[jeremy_haak]

Here's a pretty good article on the matter from the Ottawa Citizen. Basically this whole fiasco is another thoughtless act on the part of John Baird. I hope to God that he loses his riding in the next election.

Money for nothing: Rail woes aren't free

Treasury Board President John Baird and Mayor Bob Chiarelli in happier days. The two have a fundamental disagreement concerning the future of the light-rail development.

Ken Gray, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Friday, October 27, 2006

For those who think that John Baird nullifying light-rail approval by a democratically elected municipal council won't cost taxpayers money, think again.

The Treasury Board president is withholding $200 million in promised federal money for the project until Dec. 15 so a new council can vote on the project. However, Mr. Baird's decision will result in $65 million in extra costs for Siemens Canada and its partners because they can't start groundwork on the project before freeze-up.

The figure could rise because Siemens might be late completing the project because of the Baird delay. That penalty is believed to be in the $7-million range. Mr. Baird was told this by Siemens officials in a meeting on Oct. 3 but he barged ahead, delaying or possibly cancelling federal money depending on the decision of the new council.

All this puts the $880-million project and Siemens in a precarious situation. Let's put ourselves in Siemens' shoes for a moment.

You've just won a highly competitive bid for the rail contract, so you've probably cut your profit margin to the bone. Only Siemens knows how much its expected profit is, but for argument's sake, let's say it's 10 per cent. That means the company and its partners are looking at about a $90-million profit. Mr. Baird's decision means the consortium might have lost $72 million before it even puts a shovel in the ground. So what do you do?

If council approves the project, you're making only $18 million, but the contract says Siemens is responsible for any cost overruns. Perhaps the company runs into some unusual snags working on the rail tunnel under Dows Lake or a strange geological formation along the route. Maybe that sucks up the $18-million profit and the project starts to cost the company money. As Siemens, are you prepared to take that chance with just an $18-million cushion? Do you want to undertake such a massive building project and lose money?

Siemens and its partners have a signed contract with the city and an elected council has approved the project. Siemens could argue the city has not honoured the agreement because of Mr. Baird's intrusion. They could sue. Right now, it looks easier to sue than to build the light-rail project for a profit.

The city's legal department has been telling councillors that a lawsuit would cost taxpayers between $75 million and $90 million. That's the equivalent of about 11 per cent on your property-tax bill.

Interestingly, during a meeting with the Citizen editorial board, Innes Councillor Rainer Bloess estimated the cost of cancelling the project at $80 million, giving some credence to the foregoing estimates.

Mr. Bloess will vote no to light rail in December if he doesn't get an extension of the project from the University of Ottawa to the Hurdman Transitway station. Thus we pay, by his own estimate, $80 million for absolutely nothing if the vote is no. Go figure.

And if council approves the project again in December, who pays for the at least $65 million cost Siemens has incurred by being unable to proceed with construction before freeze-up? John Baird? Not likely given the fact he has pulled federal funding for the National Portrait Gallery and the Ottawa Congress Centre expansion. No, that's likely to be you and me, the municipal taxpayer. Mr. Baird has not been good for the Ottawa economy during his short stay in cabinet.

City staff has been charting who it believes will win council seats in the municipal election. Their conclusion on those projections is that light rail will not pass council in December. Senior staff has been advised to find a lawyer.

But there is more to be lost than $90 million in a potential lawsuit. Using the economic multiplier effect in which for each dollar spent on a project $2.40 in related economic spinoff is created, the light-rail project would inject a whopping $2.1 billion in activity into the Ottawa market. That includes enormous projects to built along the line. Most every business in this city would benefit from that spending. Recently, the Conference Board of Canada said cancelling the rail deal would cut Ottawa's growth to an anemic 2.6 per cent next year, down from a healthy 3.2 per cent if the project proceeds. City staff estimates the project would generate 8,400 person-years of work and about 12,600 jobs indirectly related to the project.

So Mr. Baird's decision costs us anywhere from $65 million to $2.1 billion. Did anyone vote for him to do this?

Ottawans would do well to remember what Mr. Baird has wrought. Savvy political people in town say he will regret entering this municipal fray.

If council throws out the proposal or reconsiders it, citizens will continue to experience traffic jams from the south end and will pass on a legacy of polluting, idling traffic to our children. Commuters from Kanata will continue to be snarled in traffic from Barrhaven that comes north along Greenbank, Woodroffe and Merivale and turns right to go downtown along the Queensway. That traffic would have decreased had the north-south (really southwest-northeast) light rail been approved. We will have failed to drag Ottawa's transit system out of the 1950s. Other cities that compete for industry, commerce and jobs against us have light rail. And we will lose the seven years of work and millions of dollars in environmental assessments expended to get to this point. We may never have this chance again.

One person who won't forget this is Mr. Baird's old political foe, Mayor Bob Chiarelli. The mayor has told his cousin, Councillor Rick Chiarelli, that he will run against Mr. Baird in the next federal election in Ottawa-West Nepean if he loses the mayoralty on Nov. 13. That's the mayor's old provincial seat.

And if polls are correct that even a leaderless Liberal party looks poised to overtake the Conservatives, we could be looking at a Liberal government next year. And who would be cabinet material in that new government? Why, maybe a fiscal conservative who has run a $2.6-billion annual operation such as the City of Ottawa.

Who else but Bob Chiarelli in, say, Treasury Board.

Ken Gray is the city editorial page editor and a member of the newspaper's editorial board.

E-mail: kgray@thecitizen.canwest.com

© The Ottawa Citizen 2006

[Jared]

Thanks, that's actually true! I didn't even think about Edmonton's LRT being underground when I posted that. In my head I've tied subways to being heavy rail and never classified underground LRTs as being subways but rather just underground LRTs. So is pphpt the sole decider, isn't weight part of the equation as well?

No, weight doesn't matter, "Light" and "Heavy" refer to the capacity.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much of a weight difference there is. On the one hand; bigger cars = heavier cars. However, since HRT usually is completely grade seperated, the can sometimes make the cars out of lighter materials (i.e. aluminum instead of steel), since there is no risk of colliding with motor vehicles. Conversely, trains which run at grade (usually, but not exclusively, LRT), they make a bit more heavy duty incase of collisions with cars.



jeremy_haak: I think I saw some trains in Toyko that were 13 cars long, but yea, most are shorter.

[Mikemike]

This LRT vs. HRT debate is interesting, especially the suggestion that LRT could evolve into HRT via wider cars, longer platforms, etc.

Edmonton's LRT currently runs 3 or 4 car trains, and has platforms built for 5
Frequency is currently 6minutes, and the theoretical capacity is 264 per U2 car.

There is also no reason, other than the obvious lack of demand, that frequency couldn't be 90 seconds, like moscow or tokyo.

So Capacity is 264x5x40= 52,800pphpd.

So is Edmonton's LRT really HRT?

Edmonton's (5car) capacity per train is 1320
Montreal's (9car) capacity per train is 1440

Disclaimer:
Despite capacity claimed by the manufacturer at 264 per car, I doubt that even calgary ever sees more than 220 crammed in.

[Jared]

The claims from the manufacturer tend to be higher because (I think) they get the workers and their families to pile into the cars to test them out for capacity. All these people know each other, and don't mind getting extremely close to each other (and besides, it only for a few minutes until they can count eveyone, not a 35min train ride). In real life, people wont squish that close together.

[West_aust]

Montreal almost have a LRT, we still see the tracks popping out of the asphalt on some streets :D all it misses are some trams

[malek]

Montreal almost have a LRT, we still see the tracks popping out of the asphalt on some streets :D all it misses are some trams

hehehe

but i think they have been removed this summer.

st-catherine was redone from east to west.

[renthefinn]

Ren, I must have missed that one. When did they indicated that? :sly:

It was during their budget update, it wasn't anything concrete just that they will be announcing something in the fall (let's hope they do). I think the environmental thing was a seperate initiative, cause it concentrated more on bike paths and greenways.

[feepa]

The claims from the manufacturer tend to be higher because (I think) they get the workers and their families to pile into the cars to test them out for capacity. All these people know each other, and don't mind getting extremely close to each other (and besides, it only for a few minutes until they can count eveyone, not a 35min train ride). In real life, people wont squish that close together.

Obviously you've never stepped on a train in Edmonton or Calgary after a football or hockey game. Sometimes its almost insane how many people try to fit in one car

[miketoronto]

You all know that the Ont Gov in the 1970's had a plan to build rapid transit train lines in Hamilton, Ottawa, and Toronto?

Yes Hamilton was to have a subway.

However the Ont Gov got to ahead for its time and wanted to use the style trains like the RT train in Scarborough. Anyway the trains where not developed yet, and the test train in the exhibition did not go well. So the plan was scrapped.

[PhilippeMtl]

hehehe

but i think they have been removed this summer.

st-catherine was redone from east to west.

You just have to go to Griffintown and you will find a lot of these old trams tracks (Wellington Street, Peel Street near la Dow...)

[Jared]

Obviously you've never stepped on a train in Edmonton or Calgary after a football or hockey game. Sometimes its almost insane how many people try to fit in one car

Obviously you've never been to Tokyo...;)

[CorporateWhore]

Obviously you've never stepped on a train in Edmonton or Calgary after a football or hockey game. Sometimes its almost insane how many people try to fit in one car

nuts to sporting events, it's pretty much like that every day at rush hour.

[malek]

You just have to go to Griffintown and you will find a lot of these old trams tracks (Wellington Street, Peel Street near la Dow...)

the only ones I ever saw coming out were on ste-catherine.:frog:

[Hammer Town]

OK can someone tell me the Differance Between BRT and LRT?

Thanks

[SpongeG]

this heavy rail / light rail confuses me.

I just checked the definitions on wikipedia and deux-montagnes and all other lines except the metro are heavy rails.

i always thought light rail were for tramways like in toronto.

streetcars and LRT are somewhat different

if you are ever in portland you can check them both out - streetcars are somewhat smaller - even though they look the same

[SpongeG]

OK can someone tell me the Differance Between BRT and LRT?

Thanks

BRT = bus rapid transit

- most likely set up is that the busses get right of way and in many places often have dedicated lanes and infastructure so they do not get slowed down in traffic

http://www.objectif-chine.com/IMG/jpg/brt.jpg
some of th newer BRT's are looking like LRT

http://www.isecorp.com/gallery/albums/Wright-StreetCar-BRT/62_ft_brt.jpg

http://www.mta.net/projects_plans/midcity/wilshire_brt/images/wilshire_brt.jpg

http://www.naparstek.com/uploaded_images/BRT-715483.jpg

http://www.gobrt.org/Civis_1.jpg

[alps]

Never mind, already answered

[SpongeG]

Victoria is probably the closest City to having an LRT

they have a plan

Victoria LRT cheaper than highways
An 18 kilometre light rail transit (LRT) line connecting downtown Victoria with the Western Communities suburbs of Langford and Colwood would be cheaper than the highway improvements the province is already undertaking in the Victoria region.

A draft report by consultants N.D. Lea and City Spaces Consultants concluded that the LRT project would cost a total of $298 million, $15 million less than the province is spending creating Los Angeles style freeways in the provincial capital. One interchange on the Pat Bay Highway has already consumed a whopping $75 million.

The consultants point out that two-car LRT trains running every five minutes could carry up to 8,000 people per hour, four times the people carrying capacity of motor vehicles on Douglas Street.

Bill MacDonald, chairman of the Greater Victoria Electric Railway Society and a long-time champion of LRT, sees the studies as a "good start" but feels LRT costs could be lowered further.

The Victoria Regional Transit Commission will consider the LRT reports in September before deciding on detailed engineering work.

(based on an article in the July 31 Victoria Times-Colonist)

[aastra]

One interchange on the Pat Bay Highway has already consumed a whopping $75 million.

Which interchange are they talking about??

[SSLL]

How about K/W?

[waterloowarrior]

We just lost our LRT in Ottawa - that was already approved and funded for and had a signed contract (thanks mostly to John Baird)




LRT project crashes and burns (the sun)

Thursday, 3:40 p.m.: In stunning about-face, mayor, council kill north-south transit project

Ottawa council has bitten the LRT bullet ... and killed the controversial $1 billion project.

In a vote completed just moments ago, both Mayor Larry O'Brien - who had supported a modified project in a vote two weeks ago -- and Coun. Rainer Bloess who was on vacation for the previous vote, added their ballots to those against the project. That killed all of the various LRT proposals by a 13-11 margin.

The vote opens the door to the probability of a massive lawsuit from lead contractor Siemens and its partners. The consortium told the Sun yesterday it will sue for a minimum of $100 million if the project does not proceed.

The vote came after an emotional afternoon of debate, with pleading and near begging from both sides of the issue.

Council members had been told prior to their debate that without some form of light rail transit system, not only is there the near certainty of a major lawsuit, but the city has no plan in place to deal with the increase in traffic congestion over the next 10 years.

Before city council went behind closed doors this morning to discuss the legal ramifications of nixing the 30-km line from Barrhaven to the University of Ottawa, senior staff members told council they will have to spend at least $500 million to beef up existing roads and build new infrastructure.

And the money will have to come from taxpayers, because there are no federal or provincial funding programs in place to help municipalities deal with public transit, council was told. The city does receive gas tax rebates from the two upper levels of government, but is not allowed to use them for roads.

“We have no short-term plan to deal with traffic congestion,” said River Coun. Maria McRae. “There is no money and no plan.”

Council had to have a decision on the future of light rail by 5 p.m. That was the deadline lead contractor Siemens has set to close the LRT deal.

[Arriviste]

Wow, That is rough. Poor poor Ottawa. What the fuck were they thinking?

I'll be thinking of you poor saps stuck on your buses commuting in that ditch for another 20 years while I am whisked along by wind power at 70km/h home from work tonight. Not too rub it in or anything, but how could the governing powers of a city of 1.1 million residents be so short sighted? If I still lived in Ottawa I'd be pissed.

[Doady]

And the money will have to come from taxpayers, because there are no federal or provincial funding programs in place to help municipalities deal with public transit, council was told. The city does receive gas tax rebates from the two upper levels of government, but is not allowed to use them for roads.

This paragraph contridicts itself. It claims there is no funding programs from higher level of govt for public transit, but at the same time mentions the federal and provincial gas tax rebates.

[feepa]

Wow, That is rough. Poor poor Ottawa. What the fuck were they thinking?

I'll be thinking of you poor saps stuck on your buses commuting in that ditch for another 20 years while I am whisked along by wind power at 70km/h home from work tonight.

Ya, Because CT draws directly, and only from wind power, and not from the power grid. More of what you are smoking over here please. :jester:

[adam-machiavelli]

That's what Ottawa residents get for having a moment of stupidity and electing a right-wing nutcase as mayor who's also never been in politics before. I left Ottawa because that city has changed for the worse. It's become a cesspool of angry mediocre middle-class homeowners. I'm in Kingston right now, but thinking of moving to Vancouver. Apparently they support public transit out there.

[BlackRedGold]

That's what Ottawa residents get for having a moment of stupidity and electing a right-wing nutcase as mayor who's also never been in politics before.

There would have been the same result if Ottawa had elected the left-wing nutcase that was running. People were looking for a change from the status quo, not necessarily because of the LRT, and neither of challengers would have done anything other then screw up the city.

[adam-machiavelli]

Hey, don't criticize me. If I could vote in Ottawa, I would've voted for Mayor Bob.

[waterloowarrior]

any other city in Canada would love to have an LRT line, especially one that got over 70,000 riders per day.. why does Ottawa suck so much? :(

[Beltliner]

We just lost our LRT in Ottawa - that was already approved and funded for and had a signed contract (thanks mostly to John Baird)

I'm sorry to hear about this turn of events. Honestly, I am. Just answer me one question, though--could someone please please please explain to me just what the flying frack Ottawa City Council was thinking in leaving this project to die?

Now I don't mean to gloat. Honestly, I don't. It's just that those of us sitting out here in <TM>The New Centre of the Universe</TM> are a little mystified about what's going on down there. Sure, we had to sacrifice (at least, insh'Allakh, for a little while!) the inherent coolness of downtown underground service to twelve blocks of Lenin's Mausoleum and Gift Shop in the cause of making our city-wide C-Train service financially feasible during the dark days of the 1980s. And certainly, given our druthers and given unlimited resources, we would heartily recommend putting the O-Train underground along Albert and Slater Streets downtown to reduce congestion and emissions in central Ottawa, and to enhancing Ottawa's functional and aesthetic appeal as a world capital.

Still, though, I have to ask--how in the name of Great Cthulhu is it even remotely possible that a squabble over downtown routing is all it takes to derail (pun thoroughly intended) a plan to build a light metro in Ottawa? And is it even remotely possible to build a light rail service in Ontario in the first instance without involving 17 layers of government and in the second instance without having to hear a pitch for some new experimental Apocalypto-Train technology from whoever in Yog-Sothoth's name owns Bombardier's mass-transit arm this week as endorsed by Mel Fracking Gibson?

[Mike K.]

Which interchange are they talking about??

I'm pretty sure its the Mackenzie/HWY17 interchange. I can't imagine any of the others would have cost as much.

The Douglas Street busway, identical to what Richmond's busway is all about, just received committed funds. The busway will run from north downtown to Saanich Road, which is the intersection where the Trans Canada begins. The busway will be used as an LRT route in the future where an existing right of way already exists to run tracks to the western burbs.

[waterloowarrior]

I don't understand either... the choices were
A. Kill the plan, face perhaps $300 million million in lawsuit costs, already spent $65 million so far, no viable alternative plans in place to deal with growth
B. Go with a revised downtown plan, but no provincial or federal funding guaranteed
C. Go with the original plan - fully funded - 95% of funding coming from province, feds, grants, or development charges

Of course the logical choice is A! :koko:

[Lee_Haber8]

We just lost our LRT in Ottawa - that was already approved and funded for and had a signed contract (thanks mostly to John Baird)




LRT project crashes and burns (the sun)

Thursday, 3:40 p.m.: In stunning about-face, mayor, council kill north-south transit project

Ottawa council has bitten the LRT bullet ... and killed the controversial $1 billion project.

In a vote completed just moments ago, both Mayor Larry O'Brien - who had supported a modified project in a vote two weeks ago -- and Coun. Rainer Bloess who was on vacation for the previous vote, added their ballots to those against the project. That killed all of the various LRT proposals by a 13-11 margin.

The vote opens the door to the probability of a massive lawsuit from lead contractor Siemens and its partners. The consortium told the Sun yesterday it will sue for a minimum of $100 million if the project does not proceed.

The vote came after an emotional afternoon of debate, with pleading and near begging from both sides of the issue.

Council members had been told prior to their debate that without some form of light rail transit system, not only is there the near certainty of a major lawsuit, but the city has no plan in place to deal with the increase in traffic congestion over the next 10 years.

Before city council went behind closed doors this morning to discuss the legal ramifications of nixing the 30-km line from Barrhaven to the University of Ottawa, senior staff members told council they will have to spend at least $500 million to beef up existing roads and build new infrastructure.

And the money will have to come from taxpayers, because there are no federal or provincial funding programs in place to help municipalities deal with public transit, council was told. The city does receive gas tax rebates from the two upper levels of government, but is not allowed to use them for roads.

“We have no short-term plan to deal with traffic congestion,” said River Coun. Maria McRae. “There is no money and no plan.”

Council had to have a decision on the future of light rail by 5 p.m. That was the deadline lead contractor Siemens has set to close the LRT deal.

We went through the same crap in Winnipeg a few years ago

[Greco Roman]

We went through the same crap in Winnipeg a few years ago


That was for BRT, not LRT.

[Arriviste]

Ya, Because CT draws directly, and only from wind power, and not from the power grid. More of what you are smoking over here please. :jester:

Enough power is added to the grid by the wind farms to power the C-Train. Based on your post, I don't think you understand the grid system anyway, so I wont bother going any further.

[Boris2k7]

Hey Ottawa, WTF happened?!? That's crazy, unthinkable, demonic, MURDEROUS! Please tell me there was at least a brawl at city hall. Or at least a massive swarm of protestors today descending upon the mayor's house. Please don't tell me that this is going by quietly, without widespread outrage. (and yes, I am aware that people in Ottawa are upset about this, but is it the majority of people, or at least a group of significant size?)

[jimj_wpg]

any other city in Canada would love to have an LRT line, especially one that got over 70,000 riders per day.. why does Ottawa suck so much? :(

Because it's filled with anti-progressive country (open space) lovin' hicks. That's why.

Gawd, I hate Ottawa the city. I won't go near there until they build a rail transit line.

[vid]

Hehe..

Yesterday on the bus, the guy behind me was talking about how the bus ride was taking so long (the mainline from Port Arthur to Current River, 30 minute ride, almost an hour for a round trip) and was saying 'You'd love Ottawa - the buses have their own lanes there. It's so fast and convenient!'

Everyone has a different perspective. :) I think bus lanes would work in Thunder Bay for the Mainline and Memorial routes, since they're pretty linear and get the most traffic. Light Rail is out of the question, completely uneconomical for us.

Ottawa, one would think, should have LRT by now. Any city with more than 750,000 should, imo.

[kool maudit]

a cesspool of angry mediocre middle-class homeowners.



i do a lot of work with the ottawa citizen, and it is well known around their office that ottawa readers respond well to outrage-centric pieces.

[SLC Projects]

Light rail is a great thing to have in and around downtown. :tup: I live in Salt Lake City and we got our light rail back in 2000 just a few years befor we held the 2002 winter games. Hope you guys get it light rail. :tup:

[Nouvellecosse]

Travel times could be improved somewhat by improving the bus routes so that they don't snake around so much but the bottlenecks will still be there, and traffic will still crawl at rush hour. Over time, it will only get worse, and if something better than a bus system is to be built it will take years of planning, land acquisition, etc. It doesn't seem unreasonable to start now, particularly if future rail ROWs could be used for buses.I'm actually starting to get into the whole LRT idea. I wouldn't mind a few trolly bus routes either.

[DizzyEdge]

nm.

[someone123]

I'm actually starting to get into the whole LRT idea. I wouldn't mind a few trolly bus routes either.

Trolley buses are an interesting idea.

Vancouver still has them and they are quieter and cleaner than regular buses. I think they were kept around here until 1970. Tram service stopped in 1949.

I have no idea how much it costs to install overhead wiring or the difference in cost between electricity and diesel so I don't know if it would be worth it.

Here is a trolley bus site with lots of pictures: http://www.trolleybuses.net/