[Front_Range_Guy]

I was mostly addressing acw007, Eeyore. One thing is for certain, as far as floor count goes, the tallest building in Southern Colorado is in fact in Pueblo.

[Eeyore]

This is very interesting, and only a few days old. (http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:bzIfkZ-r9WwJ:www.springsgov.com/units/council/090210/090209_d4.pdf+Colorado+SPrings+High+Rise+COnstruction+downtown+codes&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us)

A must read. Especially from page 2, down.

Does not work....

[Front_Range_Guy]

Interesting. It works for me. Try this instead. (http://www.springsgov.com/Page.asp?NavID=7384)

The point is, the city is working on adopting a "form based code" that would allow additional floors if certain criteria are met, like low income housing or public arts, etc... something like what Fort Collins has, if I'm reading it right.

[acw007]

Just out of curiosity how expensive is land in downtown Colorado Springs and Pueblo?

[Eeyore]

Just out of curiosity how expensive is land in downtown Colorado Springs and Pueblo?

I found this:

Four (4) story office building consisting of 41,524 Square Feet per county records. 35,857 Rentable Square Feet. B-4 Zoning, city of Pueblo. Ceiling height 12' slab-to-slab. 120 +/- parking spaces. Year built, 1974. LOCAL BANK FINANCING WITH 25% DOWN TO QUALIFIED BUYER! Cap on 2008 income; 7.03%. Value-add opportunity with 2008 vacancy at 21%. Broker co-op. For the full investment offering, contact broker for a Confidentiality Agreement.

Location Description:
Strategically located in the revitalized downtown Pueblo, Colorado central business district.



Asking price 2.5 million dollars 60.21 per square foot.

The link: http://www.loopnet.com/property/16085127/720-North-Main-Street/

FRG interesting and nice, I think it would help both downtowns if we could get devlopment going and start a friendly riverly going (as we have said before).

[Front_Range_Guy]

I'm trying to find out... my sense is that land values are too high in downtown Colorado Springs.

[Front_Range_Guy]

This is proving to be an interesting search for me. This website (http://improvecos.com/index.php/2009/01/21/springs-is-ready-for-more-new-urbanism/)is new to me, too.

[Eeyore]

I would be willing to bet that Pueblo's prices are among the cheapest of the major metro areas in the state as with everything else usually is from housing to office buildings...

[Eeyore]

This is proving to be an interesting search for me. This website (http://improvecos.com/index.php/2009/01/21/springs-is-ready-for-more-new-urbanism/)is new to me, too.

That is nice and you guys are ready for it in my opinion.....

[acw007]

I found this:

Four (4) story office building consisting of 41,524 Square Feet per county records. 35,857 Rentable Square Feet. B-4 Zoning, city of Pueblo. Ceiling height 12' slab-to-slab. 120 +/- parking spaces. Year built, 1974. LOCAL BANK FINANCING WITH 25% DOWN TO QUALIFIED BUYER! Cap on 2008 income; 7.03%. Value-add opportunity with 2008 vacancy at 21%. Broker co-op. For the full investment offering, contact broker for a Confidentiality Agreement.

Location Description:
Strategically located in the revitalized downtown Pueblo, Colorado central business district.



Asking price 2.5 million dollars 60.21 per square foot.

The link: http://www.loopnet.com/property/16085127/720-North-Main-Street/

FRG interesting and nice, I think it would help both downtowns if we could get devlopment going and start a friendly riverly going (as we have said before).

That's a bargain... I just found a 15,000 sqft building in downtown Fort Collins for 2,999,000. Roughly $200 per sqft. DAMN.
http://www.fortcollinsre.com/commercial-listings.php

[Front_Range_Guy]

As far as the land values question goes, I'm too buzzed to be too helpful, but the county assesors website (http://land.elpasoco.com/) could potentially be useful.

[Eeyore]

Not a surprise industrial cities usually are less expensive then high tech cities...

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/pueblomain.jpg

I still love this historic look at downtown Pueblo from around 1900 though.... It shows what we can be... And what we strive to be again.......

Some times I wonder if I was in this picture in a former life and why I love Pueblo so much lol Perhaps I was one of the ones who thought Pueblo would pass Denver by the middle of the 2oth century.....

[Front_Range_Guy]

That would explain a lot, eeyore.:haha:

[Eeyore]

Time to dream about high rises in Pueblo lol I need to get to bed, good night guys.....

[Front_Range_Guy]

Nighty night. Don't let the bed bugs bite. I hear they are a problem down there. :haha:

I crack myself up.

[Front_Range_Guy]

I'm off to bed too, but I'm curious what those of you who know about such things think about the form based code proposal I linked to above. Is Colorado Springs on the right track with this?

[Front_Range_Guy]

Nothing? Really? Well, it seems like a step in the right direction to me.

I only slept three hours. So... that was awesome. Time to coffee up!

[Eeyore]

Feeling vs. facts... gonna have to go with Bunt_q on this one again. Sorry, eeyore.

I suppose the dynamics could change with some sort of shift in government policy that encourages urban infill and prohibits suburban sprawl, but I don't see that happening... and it becomes a slippery slope, for certain.

I was re-reading what we wrote last night lol and I saw the added paragraph. That is what Pueblo is doing with our urban renewal areas that now encompasses most of downtown Pueblo and the junction area even parts of the east side. That is why you see a number of downtown projects starting here, with our limited population growth, which gives a feeling that something more is about to happen, especially if our population begins to take off like CU predicts.

[Eeyore]

Nothing? Really? Well, it seems like a step in the right direction to me.

I only slept three hours. So... that was awesome. Time to coffee up!

I think its a good idea for the Springs but the question is will they follow up with it or come back in a year or two and say they need a new study...

I do like the townhomes being built out by the eastern edge of downtown though, if they continue doing that it would make for a nice neighborhood.

[Front_Range_Guy]

I'd live in Lowell.

[Eeyore]

I'd live in Lowell.

Where?

[Front_Range_Guy]

The neighborhood that I believe you were referring to. (http://www.lowellneighborhood.com/)

I can't afford it.

[Eeyore]

Yes, that is it, I did not know the name. I saw it randomly one time as I took the back way into downtown from the east side.... Very nice area.......

[Front_Range_Guy]

Yeah. It's a bit removed from the core of downtown, but you could still be on Tejon street in minutes if you had a bicycle. I think it's underrated.

I'm not too hot on Spring Creek though. Speaking of which, I've asked CSUrbanist from city data to join the fun here. He lives in Spring Creek, so maybe he can offer some insites about the neighborhood if he accepts the challenge of representing Colorado Springs on SSP... and it is a challenge.

[Eeyore]

Yeah. It's a bit removed from the core of downtown, but you could still be on Tejon street in minutes if you had a bicycle. I think it's underrated.

I'm not too hot on Spring Creek though. Speaking of which, I've asked CSUrbanist from city data to join the fun here. He lives in Spring Creek, so maybe he can offer some insites about the neighborhood if he accepts the challenge of representing Colorado Springs on SSP... and it is a challenge.

Kind of ironic its more of a challenge for the Springs here and more for Pueblo on city data....

I hope he accepts, it would be nice to have his view on the area here as this site is more focused on the things that I look for.....

[wong21fr]

That is common, I was looking up the high rises in Burj Dubai and they go to the top of the antenna as well and a reason it is the tallest by feet and they are not the only sky scraper to do that. Just look at the Sears Tower and the Hancock building in Chicago....

I could be wrong but I do not think any of the high rises in downtown Colorado Springs have antennas on them like we do on two of ours, the wells fargo and the Qwest building.

Okay, the official way of measuring building heights goes like this:

-If it is a broadcast antennae (i.e. TV, radio, cell-phone, whatever) that is a add-on and it is not counted as part of the structural height.

-If it is a decorational spire it is counted as a part of the structural height.

For instance, the spire on the Abu Dubai counts while the antennas on the Sears Tower do not. If I recall correctly, the Wells Fargo building in Pueblo has a broadcast antennae so that would not count as part of the structural height.

[bunt_q]

Yeah. It's a bit removed from the core of downtown, but you could still be on Tejon street in minutes if you had a bicycle. I think it's underrated.

I'm not too hot on Spring Creek though. Speaking of which, I've asked CSUrbanist from city data to join the fun here. He lives in Spring Creek, so maybe he can offer some insites about the neighborhood if he accepts the challenge of representing Colorado Springs on SSP... and it is a challenge.

Spring Creek is kind of crappy, but that's because of the area (and the slightly cheaper product they have to provide there because of the area)... that project could be much better. The planning was okay, it's just not a great spot. Still, it's the right idea for an infill project. I just hope that it doesn't serve as a negative template for future would-be TND projects in the area. That same project in Briargate would've done fine.

I would live in Gold Hill Mesa... that one will be much better, except for the fact that it's surrounded by total crap development. But that's inevitable in CS. It's still a better project on paper, in a better location. I would live there, if I wanted my kids to get cancer at age 10.

[Front_Range_Guy]

My mind is pretty much made up that if I get another place in Colorado Springs at some point, it will be downtown or within quick walking distance of downtown. Given that, Gold Hill Mesa really isn't on my radar. The soil contamination is an issue too.

[Front_Range_Guy]

I've been trying to set up a new blog, without much luck. I'm not retarded, really, I'm just having a bad day. Anyway, I'm thinking about creating a thread in the city discussions section of the forum and using it as a blog. That would be an appropriate use of the city discussions section, would it not?

[Eeyore]

I've been trying to set up a new blog, without much luck. I'm not retarded, really, I'm just having a bad day. Anyway, I'm thinking about creating a thread in the city discussions section of the forum and using it as a blog. That would be an appropriate use of the city discussions section, would it not?

I do not see why not but then again I am not sure what section you are talking about lol

[Front_Range_Guy]

Right, well, we'll see. I just requested an interview with the city planner. We'll see if his willing to play or not. If I'm going to do the work, I want more than just the 5 people who read this thread to see it. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet.

[Eeyore]

Right, well, we'll see. I just requested an interview with the city planner. We'll see if his willing to play or not. If I'm going to do the work, I want more than just the 5 people who read this thread to see it. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet.

Good luck! I got talked into being on the marketing comitee for the Pueblo Economic Devlopment Corp Friday so I will see how that goes.....

[Front_Range_Guy]

Sounds like a perfect fit for you.

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0619.jpg

Wells Fargo Building

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0620.jpg

Wells Fargo Building
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0621.jpg

Wachovia Building

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0622.jpg

Wachovia Building

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0623.jpg

Qwest Building

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0624.jpg

Qwest Building

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0626.jpg

Risk Management Solutions (RMS) Building

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0627-1.jpg

Board of water works building

[wong21fr]

Pueblo needs some more flippin' trees downtown.

[Eeyore]

Pueblo needs some more flippin' trees downtown.

We actually have quite a few but a) its winter and b) I am not a nature person so I avoid taking pictures of them lol

BTW why would you want a lot of trees in downtown, I don't see them in Denver around the cash register building or the Qwest Building?

[Front_Range_Guy]

Some time ago, Cirrus suggested you read a book he referred to as the bible for urbanists, or something to that affect. Did you buy it? What was it called? I'm trying to find that post and about at the point of murdering my computer with a baseball bat because I can't find it. What a day. Apparently I'm no longer computer literate.

[Eeyore]

Sounds like a perfect fit for you.

I hope so plus I will get more information on what is coming to Pueblo lol

[Eeyore]

Some time ago, Cirrus suggested you read a book he referred to as the bible for urbanists, or something to that affect. Did you buy it? What was it called? I'm trying to find that post and about at the point of murdering my computer with a baseball bat because I can't find it. What a day. Apparently I'm not longer computer literate.

I did, one I liked and one I did not. The one I liked is called Suburban nation. He suggested one called the death and life of the great American city by Jane Jacobs but I have not read it yet lol

I cant remember the one I did not like but it was so negative that I would not recommend it anyway.

[Front_Range_Guy]

Did the other one have death in it's title?

[Eeyore]

Did the other one have death in it's title?

I think so...

[Front_Range_Guy]

Ah, here's his post. I think I'll follow the same regimen. Now I have an excuse to go downtown. I'm off to Poor Richards to find a copy of Geography of Nowhere
. I'll return with USOC construction update photos.


If you think you'll only get one of the three read, then read Suburban Nation.

If you're committed to reading all three, start with Geography of Nowhere, do Suburban Nation second, and end with Death and Life of Great American Cities.

Geography will describe why our cities look the way they do, and why it's not necessarily great that they look that way. The author is a crotchety old mean guy, but don't let him turn you off.

Nation will describe how some minor changes to how we build cities could make a big difference. It's the easiest of the three to read, and is fully illustrated.

Death is the bible of urbanism, the most important book in the genre. But is also fairly dry. It will expand on the basic information put forth in Nation.

[Eeyore]

Ah, here's his post. I think I'll follow the same regiment. Now I have an excuse to go downtown. I'm off to Poor Richards to find a copy of Geography of Nowhere
. I'll return with USOC construction update photos.

Ok, have fun... But if you are going to just read one I HIGHLY reccomand Surburban Nation, it does a great job of sumerizing the issue and giving ways to fix it.....

[wong21fr]

We actually have quite a few but a) its winter and b) I am not a nature person so I avoid taking pictures of them lol

BTW why would you want a lot of trees in downtown, I don't see them in Denver around the cash register building or the Qwest Building?

And the Qwest Building and Wells Fargo don't have a lot of street life around them. If you want to have a inviting downtown then the sidewalks are one of the most important components.

I should elaborate on my post. There's a lack of overall sidewalk appeal in most of those shots. But, if you add some trees, increase the width of the sidewalks, and throw in some streetlights you establish a bit of a barrier between the streets and the pedestrians making a more inviting environment.

I'm sure that Pueblo has done this in areas such as the Riverwalk and probably has plans to retool other streets as well.

[Eeyore]

And the Qwest Building and Wells Fargo don't have a lot of street life around them. If you want to have a inviting downtown then the sidewalks are one of the most important components.

I should elaborate on my post. There's a lack of overall sidewalk appeal in most of those shots. But, if you add some trees, increase the width of the sidewalks, and throw in some streetlights you establish a bit of a barrier between the streets and the pedestrians making a more inviting environment.

I'm sure that Pueblo has done this in areas such as the Riverwalk and probably has plans to retool other streets as well.

Yes and keep in mind I don't focus on that but I can in the next shots I take. Main has a area that is great I will focus on.

One of the big projects has to do with the 4th street bridge, as soon as it opens they want to make it one way through downtown with 5th street going west and 4th street going east through downtown. Then it will make it 3 lanes each way and they will take the extra room for larger sidewalks and more parking on 4th and 5th to make it more pedestrian friendly. That is also where the state court building is going and the federal court complex when we get it. Also the 23 and 16 story high rises is suppose to go there to if we ever get that (4th and Greenwood) as that area is now zoned B-4 and the people threre said they will sale for "redevlopment".

All that being said Downtown Pueblo is not as friendly to pedestrians as it could be, again I think its because of how spread out it is with lack oh high rises. Imagine an area the size of downtown Denver but with only a population of 150,000 people to support it. However, as we grow and downtown gets more high rises I think you will see more people walking.

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0630.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0631.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0632.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0634.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0635.jpg

Not many people walking but given Pueblo's size there is just not a need for that now.....

[BigBird9]

Well it's official, my dad is leaving for Pueblo tomorrow to begin working at Doss Aviation! I won't be out there until May, but I'll be posting here a lot more often now. :yes:

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/pueblomain.jpg

Main Street in Pueblo around 1900

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0632.jpg

Main Street in Pueblo 2009

[Eeyore]

Well it's official, my dad is leaving for Pueblo tomorrow to begin working at Doss Aviation! I won't be out there until May, but I'll be posting here a lot more often now. :yes:

Welcome to Pueblo and it will be nice having another person post from here!


:cheers:

[Eeyore]

I was mostly addressing acw007, Eeyore. One thing is for certain, as far as floor count goes, the tallest building in Southern Colorado is in fact in Pueblo.

I was taking all the pictures of downtown Pueblo today and I was thinking, this must mean that Pueblo has the tallest building out side of the Denver Metro area in Colorado...

:notacrook:

Although not sure what that says about our state (including Pueblo) since it was built in the 1960's..... BEFORE I WAS BORN!!!!!!!!!

:whatthefuck:

[Front_Range_Guy]

No photos. I remembered I had a gift card for Barnes and Noble, so I didn't go downtown. I did get the book, though. I plan to read all three in the order Cirrus suggested.

[Eeyore]

I need to read the last book, maybe that will get me motivated to do so lol

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0607.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0608.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0609.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0610.jpg

Update on the new Vesta's plant in Pueblo.

[wong21fr]

I was mostly addressing acw007, Eeyore. One thing is for certain, as far as floor count goes, the tallest building in Southern Colorado is in fact in Pueblo.

What about the Wells Fargo Bank Tower in the Springs? 16 stories right? I thought it was the tallest between Pueblo and COS?

I was taking all the pictures of downtown Pueblo today and I was thinking, this must mean that Pueblo has the tallest building out side of the Denver Metro area in Colorado...

:notacrook:

Although not sure what that says about our state (including Pueblo) since it was built in the 1960's..... BEFORE I WAS BORN!!!!!!!!!

:whatthefuck:

Dude, you're about to cry. Behold the 33-story Ameristar Casino in Blackhawk, CO:

Rendering (denvercityscape.com):
http://www.denver-cityscape.com/images/ameristarhotel5406.jpg

It's been topped out and should be finished later this year. A earlier construction photo:
http://media.marketwire.com/attachments/200901/TN-498701_BHHotelExterior1108.jpg

[Eeyore]

What about the Wells Fargo Bank Tower in the Springs? 16 stories right? I thought it was the tallest between Pueblo and COS?



Dude, you're about to cry. Behold the 33-story Ameristar Casino in Blackhawk, CO:

Rendering (denvercityscape.com):
http://www.denver-cityscape.com/images/ameristarhotel5406.jpg

It's been topped out and should be finished later this year. A earlier construction photo:
http://media.marketwire.com/attachments/200901/TN-498701_BHHotelExterior1108.jpg

Now I know what FRG was talking about, thats even more sad....

:tantrum:

By feet maybe but the senior citzen home in Pueblo is 17 stories and over all we have more highrises over 10 stories then the Springs does....

You know the funny thing I never would of guessed they would be the first city outside Denver to get the first 30 plus story building..... The Springs, Fort Collins, Loveland, Greeley, Grand Junction, or Pueblo but NEVER Blackhawk.... That totally shattered my sense of what I thought was going to happen in the state and I will have to rethink things now...

[Front_Range_Guy]

:haha: Eeyore. The Ameristar in Blackhawk is old news. Keep up!

Wells Fargo has 15-floors. I know. Back when I was a news photographer, I interviewed some developer guy about the failed convention center proposal in his office on the 15th floor... and 15 was the biggest number in the elevator. By floor count, Pueblo wins. I don't know about actual height.

Who knows, maybe Pueblo would be getting a huge hotel right now had it passed the gambling proposal a while back.

CS Urbanist should be joining us soon, pending approval from the mods. In the mean time, he suggests a stop at Rancho Liborio for the pork tacos. :cool:

[Eeyore]

:haha: Eeyore. The Ameristar in Blackhawk is old news. Keep up!

Wells Fargo has 15-floors. I know. Back when I was a news photographer, I interviewed some developer guy about the failed convention center proposal in his office on the 15th floor... and 15 was the biggest number in the elevator. By floor count, Pueblo wins. I don't know about actual height.

Who knows, maybe Pueblo would be getting a huge hotel right now had it passed the gambling proposal a while back.

CS Urbanist should be joining us soon, pending approval from the mods. In the mean time, he suggests a stop at Rancho Liborio for the pork tacos. :cool:

You are right its old news but i never hear about them up there. Last night when you said what's going on up there I just blew it off as some 6-10 story hotels. I think the Springs building is taller by feet then Pueblo's tallest but I do not know hot tall the senior center is by feet, I just know the stories.

As far as Pueblo getting gambling to be honest I am glad we are not known as a gambling town, I would rather wait till we get business that require office buildings that tall.

That's kewl that we have another blogger cus one guy is moving to Pueblo from Florida so that makes two more.....

:grouphug:

[Front_Range_Guy]

The last picture of the Vestas plant is cool. That thing is massive.

I don't know why, but the Blackhawk thing never has bothered me. Talk about issues with not being the right scale for the neighborhood... sheesh. I think I'd be more upset if it were Fort Collins or Pueblo or Grand Junction. Not really sure why, though.

I think maybe to some extent I view Ameristar as a novelty. I bet it looks really weird from the highway in that setting.

[Eeyore]

To be honest the only new office buildings I know of are between Pueblo and downtown Denver including the DTC. That is why I talk so much about it and never the one on the way to Boulder as I never get that far north.....

About the Black hawk hotel, that is true and I don't like the design, it looks like a cheap hotel. Not like a nice hotel from Vegas. But I guess they don't have the kind of money Vegas does either....

BTW does the tech park by Interquest parkway in the Springs have a name?

Thanks! The thing about that is its only taking 200 acers of the 800 acers, the rest is reserved for Vesta's suppliers who will be moving to Pueblo in the next few years....

[Front_Range_Guy]

I think it's called the Interquest Office Park.

[Front_Range_Guy]

My main interests lie within a couple mile radius of downtown Colorado Springs. I don't get too worked up over anything happening outside of that zone. There's been a ton of lowrise office and hotel construction on Colorado Springs' east side and down by the airport, and up north... but it's all just suburban office park garbage. Who cares?

[Eeyore]

I think it's called the Interquest Office Park.

lol I guess that would make sense. I am batting 1000 tonight.....


:sly:

[Eeyore]

My main interests lie within a couple mile radius of downtown Colorado Springs. I don't get too worked up over anything happening outside of that zone. There's been a ton of lowrise office and hotel construction on Colorado Springs' east side and down by the airport, and up north... but it's all just suburban office park garbage. Who cares?

:tomato:

I use to be up set over the new construction by the Springs airport till I remembered Pueblo has had a industrial park by our airport since the 1980's. I pay attention to other cities because I would like Pueblo to have the first high rise in the state, out of the metro area.....

[Front_Range_Guy]

lol I guess that would make sense. I am batting 1000 tonight.....


:sly:

:haha:

[Front_Range_Guy]

I generally stay aware of what's happening in other cities... but I have to be careful. I'm prone to wild emotional swings over things that don't actually having any bearing on my life... so I try... *try* to focus my attention on the reality of the situation in Colorado Springs. If a tower were built in Pueblo, that would in no tangible way change the situation on the ground in Colorado Springs. That's the thing I try to remember.

My goal is to educate myself on urban issues enough that am able to look at the situation in a sort of objective, factual way... and refrain from thinking with my emotions, and with my ego. If Pueblo were to get a 20-story tower at Eagleridge and I-25, and Colorado Springs were to develop a *truly* walkable, urban inner city neighborhood with no new highrises. I'd like to think I'd be able to say I prefer the urban neighborhood over the suburban tower.

[Eeyore]

I generally stay aware of what's happening in other cities... but I have to be careful. I'm prone to wild emotional swings over things that don't actually having any bearing on my life... so I try... *try* to focus my attention on the reality of the situation in Colorado Springs. If a tower were built in Pueblo, that would in no tangible way change the situation on the ground in Colorado Springs. That's the thing I try to remember.

My goal is to educate myself on urban issues enough that am able to look at the situation in a sort of objective, factual way... and refrain from thinking with my emotions, and with my ego. If Pueblo were to get a 20-story tower at Eagleridge and I-25, and Colorado Springs were to develop a *truly* walkable, urban inner city neighborhood with no new highrises. I'd like to think I'd be able to say I prefer the urban neighborhood over the suburban tower.

That is a good way to look at things but to be honest I am not there, the only reason I am not more jealous of the Springs is because Pueblo does have a bigger downtown and larger industrial parks and we still have more high rises and some are taller by floors so I focus on that. If the day would come and that would change I would not be a happy camper lol

I know that's not good and I really do like the Springs I just want Pueblo to be bigger lol

BTW I would be mad if Pueblo got a 20 story building at eagleridge as well and not downtown.....

And in some strange way the fact that Pueblo is at least growing helps me deal with the Springs being bigger. If the Springs grows and Pueblo stays stagnant that is bad but if we grow and have a nice urban downtown but remain smaller I think I can deal with it better.

[wong21fr]

:tomato:

I use to be up set over the new construction by the Springs airport till I remembered Pueblo has had a industrial park by our airport since the 1980's. I pay attention to other cities because I would like Pueblo to have the first high rise in the state, out of the metro area.....

You'll need to force Ameristar to halt construction. Sorry to say, but Blackhawk will claim that distinction.

Seriously, who would have expected Blackhawk to get the first high rise outside of the Denver Metro Area? I think that still has everyone scratching their heads.

I would have put my money on COS or Pueblo, but I think I would have leaned more towards COS because that's the city I'm more familiar with.

[Eeyore]

You'll need to force Ameristar to halt construction. Sorry to say, but Blackhawk will claim that distinction.

Seriously, who would have expected Blackhawk to get the first high rise outside of the Denver Metro Area? I think that still has everyone scratching their heads.

I would have put my money on COS or Pueblo, but I think I would have leaned more towards COS because that's the city I'm more familiar with.

Where is that little brown mouse when you need one?????? :Titanic:

I would of picked any front range city and even Grand Junction over Black hawk, but I guess it makes sense. I just did not know that many people gambled up there as I hate to gamble....

:shrug:

[Front_Range_Guy]

I've never bought a lotto ticket, and I've never so much as gone to Cripple Creek to gamble. I just don't see the appeal. Wow, let me throw away what little money I do have. Whee! I have no moral objection to gambling, but it seems kind of like a stupid thing to do... especially if you don't have much money to begin with.

[Eeyore]

I've never bought a lotto ticket, and I've never so much as gone to Cripple Creek to gamble. I just don't see the appeal. Wow, let me throw away what little money I do have. Whee! I have no moral objection to gambling, but it seems kind of like a stupid thing to do... especially if you don't have much money to begin with.

I have to admit I buy lotto when the pot gets big, I know my chance is slim to none but I figure 5 bucks for a chance at 150 million, why not. Plus the Colorado Lottery is headquartered in Pueblo lol

As far as Pueblo not getting the first high rise outside the Denver metro area, you guys have no idea how devastated I am now.... My whole world came crashing down on me tonight, that was one of my biggest dreams for Pueblo. And I kep up on all the major cities but I had no idea I would have to look in the mountains... Its like someone pulled the rug out under me.. Dam this sux...

[Front_Range_Guy]

Interesting.

The shock will wear off...

[BigBird9]

Welcome to Pueblo and it will be nice having another person post from here!


:cheers:

Thanks! What is that Vesta plant? That thing is huge...

[acw007]

What about the Wells Fargo Bank Tower in the Springs? 16 stories right? I thought it was the tallest between Pueblo and COS?



Dude, you're about to cry. Behold the 33-story Ameristar Casino in Blackhawk, CO:

Rendering (denvercityscape.com):
http://www.denver-cityscape.com/images/ameristarhotel5406.jpg

It's been topped out and should be finished later this year. A earlier construction photo:
http://media.marketwire.com/attachments/200901/TN-498701_BHHotelExterior1108.jpg

Emporis says the Wells Fargo Center in Colorado Springs is 247 ft tall. The senior living home in Pueblo might have more floors but residential floors are far shorter than office floors. Office floors tend to average 14 ft per floor. Residential are around between 8 and 9 ft per floor. By those standards the senior living tower in pueblo would be about 153 ft tall max.
The First National Bank tower in Fort Collins is 158 ft tall. So sorry eeyore... Fort Collin, Blackhawk, and Colorado Springs all have taller buildings than Pueblo.

[Front_Range_Guy]

Way to kick a man while he's down. :P

[Eeyore]

You forget about the Wells Fargo building in Pueblo that is 217 feet tall by official counts in our books, not a figure I made up, and I have already said that I knew the Springs had a taller high rise by feet but that I focus on the number of stories and I have always thought that it was cooler to say the tallest building is 17 stories and I have never really cared how tall it was by feet, plus it has attennas too!

:wizard:

[Eeyore]

Thanks! What is that Vesta plant? That thing is huge...

This is what it is by official new report by KOAA - Southern Colorado's news Leader (at least Black Hawk will never have a TV station located there!) :P


The world's largest supplier of wind turbines plans to build a $240 million production plant in Pueblo. It will create hundreds of new jobs for the city. And the Vestas Company, based in Denmark, says the completed plant will be the largest of its kind in the world. (Take that Black hawk!) :cheers:
The factory will be built south of Pueblo and east of I-25, between the Comanche power plant and the cement plant. It will be the company's first tower factory in the United States; it has three others in Europe.

Governor Bill Ritter was in Pueblo, Friday, as the company formally announced its building plans. Vestas says it will employ up to 550 people. The factory will make about a thousand tower units a year, which will make wind turbines, which are then used to generate electricity. The factory should be up and running in about two years.

Pueblo city council used an undisclosed amount of the half-cent sales tax money to give the company an incentive to move to Pueblo. Council members say the payoff is worth the price.

"The jobs will be good high-paying jobs," council member Randy Thurston says. "It's going to create a motivation for a lot of other small companies to want to move here to Pueblo, and again it's going to put us on the World map."

"Coloradoans benefit because it really is a 21st century industry, and we're I would say the national, some would say the international in growing that industry right now, " said Gov. Bill Ritter.

Vestas recently announced it will also build two more factories in Brighton; it already has a blade factory in Windsor. The company first began producing wind turbines in 1979 and employs about 15,000 people worldwide.

Sorry guys just a little self healing! :naughty:

[Fir Na Tine 343]

FRG

That form based code has been in the works for a while but has seemed to pick up the pace in recent months. They have been using some pretty big players in the downtown arena to help draft that document. Advisors that you and I would probably agree with on many urbanist issues. Encouraging, we will see what happens.

I saw you talking about Cooper Tower earlier and asking about its size. When it was originally proposed it got approved at 28 stories without much of a problem. I noticed floors started coming off as the economy started declining. Eventully leading up to what it is now.

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0578.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0589.jpg

Two new bank buildings being built in Pueblo, only 2 stories but still kewl....

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0597.jpg

I like this view of what has to be one of my favorite buildings in Pueblo, the Wells Fargo bank Building. Sorry for the dirty window lol I will try to take another shot of it today with my window down....

[Front_Range_Guy]

FRG

That form based code has been in the works for a while but has seemed to pick up the pace in recent months. They have been using some pretty big players in the downtown arena to help draft that document. Advisors that you and I would probably agree with on many urbanist issues. Encouraging, we will see what happens.

I saw you talking about Cooper Tower earlier and asking about its size. When it was originally proposed it got approved at 28 stories without much of a problem. I noticed floors started coming off as the economy started declining. Eventully leading up to what it is now.

The max floor count I remember hearing about for the Cooper proposal was 26-stories when they thought they might house the USOC. Either way, it's a dead deal now.

This form based code plan is something I'm really looking forward to hearing more about, though. Encouraging seems to be the right word.

[Eeyore]

Did you guys know that Tulsa Oklahoma has buildings over 60 stories? That's taller then anything in Denver.......

[wong21fr]

But, not based on roof height. Which, in the world of skyscraper enthusiasts, is what counts. Roof and spire height are the two facets of measurement that are employed when determining overall height. Antennas don't count as they are considered a add-on to a building (this is hotly debated). This is all according to the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat.

Eyeore, if you want to build the tallest structure in CO in Pueblo all you need to do is construct a 1-story building with a 225m free-standing spire. ;)

As for a building, you'd need something that has at least 50% of it's height derived from habitable floor plates.

[PLANSIT]

We've gone over this a million times. Eyeore refuses to acknowledge fact and common sense when determining building height. Just let him take refuge in his delusions of reality that Wells Fargo - Pueblo is 227 ft.

[Fir Na Tine 343]

Quick shot I took today of the USOC building. It has been interesting to watch them put a brand new steel frame on top of the 90 year old original 2 story foundation
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp165/FirNaTine343/usocbuilding005.jpg

[Eeyore]

:previous:

Very nice, that should do a lot to help out downtown Colorado Springs.... I am sooo glad you guys kep the USOC and it did not move to Chicago......

:tomato:

[Eeyore]

We've gone over this a million times. Eyeore refuses to acknowledge fact and common sense when determining building height. Just let him take refuge in his delusions of reality that Wells Fargo - Pueblo is 227 ft.



Thank you! I am already dealing with the knowledge that Black Hawk has a 33 story high rise and Pueblo does not.

:brickwall:

P.S. Wong said "Antennas don't count as they are considered a add-on to a building (this is hotly debated)" so if it is hotly debated about the antenna's then that means some people in the community accept it as fact so it just depends who you talk to... For me that's good enough lol

:happypunk:

[The Dirt]

Quick shot I took today of the USOC building. It has been interesting to watch them put a brand new steel frame on top of the 90 year old original 2 story foundation
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp165/FirNaTine343/usocbuilding005.jpg

CS could use about 10 of these going on in downtown. Who cares about a 30+ story tower that does little for the street level, when you have existing beauties being upgraded and new urban developments. That is actually what Pueblo has that CS is sorely lacking in. Pueblo just needs to make the street level more appealing and widen the sidewalks a bit.

[wong21fr]

Thank you! I am already dealing with the knowledge that Black Hawk has a 33 story high rise and Pueblo does not.

:brickwall:

P.S. Wong said "Antennas don't count as they are considered a add-on to a building (this is hotly debated)" so if it is hotly debated about the antenna's then that means some people in the community accept it as fact so it just depends who you talk to... For me that's good enough lol

:happypunk:

Well the caveat I should add is that if the antennae was added on after the building was complete, it doesn't count. That's a definite.

[Eeyore]

CS could use about 10 of these going on in downtown. Who cares about a 30+ story tower that does little for the street level, when you have existing beauties being upgraded and new urban developments. That is actually what Pueblo has that CS is sorely lacking in. Pueblo just needs to make the street level more appealing and widen the sidewalks a bit.

So let me get this str8, we are in sky scrapers.com and people are saying that we should have more low rise buildings in downtown and sky scrapers are not important?

:hmmm:

[The Dirt]

Also, if you stand on the roof of a building, you're essentially an antennae. So, you can add a few feet to the building if you assume that Yao Ming will be standing on the roof.

So let me get this str8, we are in sky scrapers.com and people are saying that we should have more low rise buildings in downtown and sky scrapers are not important?

:hmmm:

Skyscrapers are important, but the way that skyscrapers were being built in the 80s has been very bad for downtowns. They have had huge unnecessary plazas, and no street frontage or street level retail. This does not promote street vitality and foot traffic. It essentially turns downtowns into suburban office parks (including the endless blocks of parking lots). Buildings like the one above are more conducive to a favorable street environment and promote a healthy street life in downtowns. 10 of these > 1 crappy highrise. Of course, 1 crappy highrise > 1 nice lowrise (unfortunately, 1 crappy highrise comes at the expense of 4+ beautiful, historic lowrises that could have been restored). Or better yet, 1 very nice highrise > 1 nice lowrise.

[Eeyore]

Also, if you stand on the roof of a building, you're essentially an antennae. So, you can add a few feet to the building if you assume that Yao Ming will be standing on the roof.



Skyscrapers are important, but the way that skyscrapers were being built in the 80s has been very bad for downtowns. They have had huge unnecessary plazas, and no street frontage or street level retail. This does not promote street vitality and foot traffic. It essentially turns downtowns into suburban office parks (including the endless blocks of parking lots). Buildings like the one above are more conducive to a favorable street environment and promote a healthy street life in downtowns. 10 of these > 1 crappy highrise. Of course, 1 crappy highrise > 1 nice lowrise (unfortunately, 1 crappy highrise comes at the expense of 4+ beautiful, historic lowrises that could have been restored). Or better yet, 1 very nice highrise > 1 nice lowrise.

I would stand on the building if it would make it the tallest in the state lol

As far as sky scrapers, if someone wanted to build a sky scraper in Pueblo like the cash register building or the Qwest building in Denver that's all I would be talking about in here for months and you would see so many pictures of the project I would be getting hate mail lol. Here is a new steel rod or look they put another so I took a second picture etc.....

:drunk:

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0636.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0637.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0638.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0639.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0640.jpg

I know this is off topic, but this is one of Pueblo's newest up scale neighborhoods and one that I love. I love the design of the houses (no cookie cutter homes here) and the lay out and the view. In fact if I did not have a house I am happy in I would consider building a house in this neighborhood.

:offtopic:

[CS-Urbanist]

I do not even know where to begin with these conversations you guys have been having... I must say though that the intelligence level has raised in this forum in comparison to the City Data forum... Kudos to you guys for that... Let me me start with my feelings very shortly on the issues you guys have been discussing:

1. Skyscrapers: Good in the right context and Colorado Springs probably isn't it... I would take a downtown full of 6 stories buildings over a couple lousy skyscrapers. Advantage Pueblo.
2. Books mentioned: Geography of Nowhere - Classic book, recommend to anyone. Kunstler is a genious; Suburban Nation - Great book and bible of the new urbanism; Death and Life of Great American Cities - Outstanding book, wish Jane Jacobs was still alive to speak with her about it in person.
3. TND's in Colorado Springs - Not a big fan of any of them, but Spring Creek accomplishes more principles of the new urbanism than any of the others (IMO). Gold Hill Mesa does not have enough diversity and is a neighborhood plagued like many other TND's across the nation of being an elitist neighborhood with the cost of living there... Now it jumped to a complete opposite end of the spectrum with the Challenger Homes building now and John Laing out the door. Lowell is a good start but not enough of it and very little variety in housing typologies. Spring Creek (of course I live here) but it has a lot of diversity in housing, people, tight streets and yes walkable grocery store, Subway, Liquor Store and school. I wish it had an actual new urbanist style retail, but oh well this City hasn't figured out that market yet.
4. Blackhawk skyscraper - this thing pisses me off and it really goes back to the skyscraper issue. This is the "Towers in the park" scenario of LeCorbusier that you will read about in Death and Life as well as the other books... Terrible scenario to have a 33 story building with only 2-3 story buildings adjacent. But, the individual casino owners do not want you to leave their casino to patronize others so they try to have everything in their one store (similar strategy as Wal-Mart?)

I don't remember what else was said but I'm glad to read a lot of your posts. Very insightful on some aspects.:cheers:

[Eeyore]

I do not even know where to begin with these conversations you guys have been having... I must say though that the intelligence level has raised in this forum in comparison to the City Data forum... Kudos to you guys for that... Let me me start with my feelings very shortly on the issues you guys have been discussing:

1. Skyscrapers: Good in the right context and Colorado Springs probably isn't it... I would take a downtown full of 6 stories buildings over a couple lousy skyscrapers. Advantage Pueblo.
2. Books mentioned: Geography of Nowhere - Classic book, recommend to anyone. Kunstler is a genious; Suburban Nation - Great book and bible of the new urbanism; Death and Life of Great American Cities - Outstanding book, wish Jane Jacobs was still alive to speak with her about it in person.
3. TND's in Colorado Springs - Not a big fan of any of them, but Spring Creek accomplishes more principles of the new urbanism than any of the others (IMO). Gold Hill Mesa does not have enough diversity and is a neighborhood plagued like many other TND's across the nation of being an elitist neighborhood with the cost of living there... Now it jumped to a complete opposite end of the spectrum with the Challenger Homes building now and John Laing out the door. Lowell is a good start but not enough of it and very little variety in housing typologies. Spring Creek (of course I live here) but it has a lot of diversity in housing, people, tight streets and yes walkable grocery store, Subway, Liquor Store and school. I wish it had an actual new urbanist style retail, but oh well this City hasn't figured out that market yet.
4. Blackhawk skyscraper - this thing pisses me off and it really goes back to the skyscraper issue. This is the "Towers in the park" scenario of LeCorbusier that you will read about in Death and Life as well as the other books... Terrible scenario to have a 33 story building with only 2-3 story buildings adjacent. But, the individual casino owners do not want you to leave their casino to patronize others so they try to have everything in their one store (similar strategy as Wal-Mart?)

I don't remember what else was said but I'm glad to read a lot of your posts. Very insightful on some aspects.:cheers:

Great post and I agree with all your points especially the advantage Pueblo, LOL, I could not resist my self :jester:.

I have a question for you, Pueblo has Urban renewal areas in our downtown, and other places, that allow us to use the extra tax money that new developments bring to further fix up the area and create more developments. Do you think that strategy would help downtown Colorado Springs and if so why and if not why not?

BTW that was a great way to introduce yourself to us, welcome!

:cheers:

[CS-Urbanist]

I have a question for you, Pueblo has Urban renewal areas in our downtown, and other places, that allow us to use the extra tax money that new developments bring to further fix up the area and create more developments. Do you think that strategy would help downtown Colorado Springs and if so why and if not why not?

Urban Renewal is a fantastic way to improve development especially in the downtown areas. In fact I believe Spring Creek, Lowell and Gold Hill Mesa were all part of the Urban Renewal that exists in Colorado Springs. They have a big urban renewal area right now around America the Beautiful Park. I think what Colorado Springs is doing right now with changing the codes to Form-Based Codes is also a very positive thing that Pueblo could do to improve their downtown vitality even more. Pueblo's could be much more progressive given the nature of Pueblo.

[Eeyore]

Urban Renewal is a fantastic way to improve development especially in the downtown areas. In fact I believe Spring Creek, Lowell and Gold Hill Mesa were all part of the Urban Renewal that exists in Colorado Springs. They have a big urban renewal area right now around America the Beautiful Park. I think what Colorado Springs is doing right now with changing the codes to Form-Based Codes is also a very positive thing that Pueblo could do to improve their downtown vitality even more. Pueblo's could be much more progressive given the nature of Pueblo.

It sounds like Form - based codes is a good idea, is there anything I can read on that so I could really understand what it is. At this point I am kind of lost beyond the basics....

I did find this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form-based_codes

If I understnad it right that is what Pueblo wants to do in the riverwalk area and keep the high rises more in the business district or up town.

[CS-Urbanist]

It sounds like Form - based codes is a good idea, is there anything I can read on that so I could really understand what it is. At this point I am kind of lost beyond the basics....

Here is the website for the form-based codes institute. [URL="http://www.formbasedcodes.org/"] Also if you look on the City of Colorado Springs website, I believe they have a draft copy on there. I think Denver is writing one as well and others in the state are looking at them... Fort Collins? Steamboat? I even heard once that Woodland Park was considering using them... I think Pueblo could really benefit from new codes... I think Pueblo has a lot of promise with their downtown and urban core, they seem to have some good leadership down there who are open to new ideas...

[Eeyore]

Here is the website for the form-based codes institute. [URL="http://www.formbasedcodes.org/"] Also if you look on the City of Colorado Springs website, I believe they have a draft copy on there. I think Denver is writing one as well and others in the state are looking at them... Fort Collins? Steamboat? I even heard once that Woodland Park was considering using them... I think Pueblo could really benefit from new codes... I think Pueblo has a lot of promise with their downtown and urban core, they seem to have some good leadership down there who are open to new ideas...

Thanks! Hopefully when this economy picks up we will see more construction in both downtown's....

[Eeyore]

Population

2007 - 105

2000 - 118

1990 - 227

That is the population of Black Hawk........