[wong21fr]

I'm going to be evil but I say that there is no way that Pueblo is going to surpass Denver college wise. We've got UCD, Metro State, DU, and a few others. All I have to say to Pueblo is to suck it. (One angry vet.)

P.S. I hope CSU-P the best since I wish to see Metro and CSU-P stage off in a rivalry championship.

[Eeyore]

I'm going to be evil but I say that there is no way that Pueblo is going to surpass Denver college wise. We've got UCD, Metro State, DU, and a few others. All I have to say to Pueblo is to suck it. (One angry vet.)

P.S. I hope CSU-P the best since I wish to see Metro and CSU-P stage off in a rivalry championship.

If you add all of them together I would have to agree. But how many students does each campus have separately?

Also, I would take CSU- Pueblo with 20,000 students over them as CSU - Pueblo is a traditional university ,with all the major sports, that will get more attention then those schools will get.

Pueblo does have other schools as well. Some are: PCC, CTU, University of Phoenix and Intiltech that are more for the local students so as Pueblo grows, they will grow.

I have said that alone Pueblo or Colorado Springs will never compete with the Denver metro area but that combined we will. Then again that makes sense as the Denver metro area is more then just Denver but a number of large cities.

Just look at the Universities.

UCCS
CSU - Pueblo
Pikes Peak community College
PCC - Has campuses all over southern Colorado
The Air force Academy
and many more.

In terms of a rival school for CSU - Pueblo's football team I would prefer UCCS. However since they do not have one and everything I hear is that they do not want one I would be ok with Metro. The only problem is long range I don't think that would work out because when CSU - Pueblo is at or above 20,000 students we will be in a different league. That would be like CSU Fort Collins playing metro now.

[Eeyore]

This was in city data and I think is a good brief history lesson of the Front Range from Pueblo to Denver.

"The biggest thing that came out of the flood (of 1921) to hurt Pueblo was the political trade to get the levees built. The levee construction bonds were tied on the statewide ballot to another bond issue to fund the construction of the Moffat railroad tunnel west of Denver. That eventually allowed the Denver & Rio Grande Western Railroad to achieve a direct Denver connection to Salt Lake City and Ogden, Utah (and points west) in the 1930's, without having to travel from Denver to Pueblo, thence westward. That did more than anything to cement Pueblo's decline that occurred in the years following.

This was another case of that rather repugnant political horse-trading that goes on. The proponents of the Moffat Tunnel knew that they did not have the votes statewide to get the tunnel bond issue passed, and Pueblo knew it did not have the votes to get the flood control bonds passed. So, an uneasy political "compromise" was reached to get enough votes to pass both issues. At the time, I think the Pueblo interests knew they were selling a good chunk of their future down the river, so to speak, by supporting the Moffat Tunnel issue, but it probably was a trade they were willing to make to get the levee, even though it probably compromised a lot of Pueblo's economic opportunities for decades afterward.

By the way, it was William Jackson Palmer, founder of the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad, who basically decided much of the character of both Colorado Springs and Pueblo. He and his affluent friends decided that the more agreeable climate and setting of Colorado Springs dictated that it would become the tourist and "high society" center for southern Colorado, while hot, dusty Pueblo--but hard against the Arkansas River--would become the industrial center for southern Colorado. That is why Palmer located his Colorado Coal & Iron works--later Colorado Fuel & Iron (CF&I) in Pueblo. Neither Colorado Springs nor Pueblo has ever really escaped the die that both towns were cast in back in the late 1870's and early 1880's"

I asked this:

What do you think Pueblo would be like today if the flood had not happened and denver did not get the rail road tunnel? Or if the flood would of happened but Pueblo did not make the deal so Denver did not get the moffit tunnel? And were the leaders back then stupid or did they have no other choice?

The responce:

That's hard to know. I think it would be fair to say that had Pueblo not had the flood, it is unlikely that a majority of Colorado voters would have voted for the Moffat railroad tunnel. In fact, an initiative to finance the building the Moffat Tunnel, a railroad tunnel under Marshall Pass between Salida and Gunnison, and a railroad tunnel somewhere between Alamosa and Durango had failed a year or two earlier. That initiative was vehemently opposed by the Pueblo interests because they saw the Moffat Tunnel as a threat. So, as the saying goes, politics often makes strange bedfellows, and that is what the Pueblo flood did.

Were the leaders stupid? No. As is often the case in politics, the political leaders were not confronted with making a good choice or bad choice, or a "smart" or "dumb" choice--they rather were confronted with making the lesser of two somewhat unpalatable choices. As so sadly happens in those circumstances, though, the less unpalatable choice at the time often has long-range negative effects that will often outweigh the shorter term benefits of the choice that is made.

[wong21fr]

If you add all of them together I would have to agree. But how many students does each campus have separately?

Also, I would take CSU- Pueblo with 20,000 students over them as CSU - Pueblo is a traditional university ,with all the major sports, that will get more attention then those schools will get.

Pueblo does have other schools as well. Some are: PCC, CTU, University of Phoenix and Intiltech that are more for the local students so as Pueblo grows, they will grow.

I have said that alone Pueblo or Colorado Springs will never compete with the Denver metro area but that combined we will. Then again that makes sense as the Denver metro area is more then just Denver but a number of large cities.

Just look at the Universities.

UCCS
CSU - Pueblo
Pikes Peak community College
PCC - Has campuses all over southern Colorado
The Air force Academy
and many more.

In terms of a rival school for CSU - Pueblo's football team I would prefer UCCS. However since they do not have one and everything I hear is that they do not want one I would be ok with Metro. The only problem is long range I don't think that would work out because when
CSU - Pueblo is at or above 20,000 students we will be in a different league. That would be like CSU Fort Collins playing metro now.

Metro currently has over 21,500 students and is expected to top out at a little over 30,00 in the next decade. So, in terms of school size, Metro would have the advantage, along with established athletic programs that have brought home National Championships.

I think that a CSU-Pueblo/Metro rivalry could really blossom into something.

[Eeyore]

Metro currently has over 21,500 students and is expected to top out at a little over 30,00 in the next decade. So, in terms of school size, Metro would have the advantage, along with established athletic programs that have brought home National Championships.

I think that a CSU-Pueblo/Metro rivalry could really blossom into something.

That would be good. Like I said I would go for that. It will take a few years though for CSU- Pueblo to get it's football program going strong though. Where does metro play football? Do they have a stadium by campus? I thought metro was more of a non traditional college with commuting students kind of like PCC?

[wong21fr]

I'll clarify, Metro doesn't have a football team. There's a stipulation in the Metro State charter that it cannot have a football team even though that have wanted to establish one for a few years. Apparently someone didn't want the competition. ;)

But, the rivalry can exist for basketball, baseball, soccer, and, pretty soon, hockey.

The Auraria campus also recently acquired 14 acres for athletic fields and new facilities. It was probably the last land portion that can be acquired for the campus.

Student housing comes from private sources directly adjacent to campus, though it remains primarily a commuter campus. But, that will change over the next 20 years or so.

[Eeyore]

I'll clarify, Metro doesn't have a football team. There's a stipulation in the Metro State charter that it cannot have a football team even though that have wanted to establish one for a few years. Apparently someone didn't want the competition. ;)

But, the rivalry can exist for basketball, baseball, soccer, and, pretty soon, hockey.

The Auraria campus also recently acquired 14 acres for athletic fields and new facilities. It was probably the last land portion that can be acquired for the campus.

Student housing comes from private sources directly adjacent to campus, though it remains primarily a commuter campus. But, that will change over the next 20 years or so.

I don't think CSU Pueblo has a hockey team so that only leave basketball. I have never really been a fan of basketball so I don't know how that is working.

That is interesting facts about Metro, I would say the school who did not want the competition was CU Boulder. I don't think Pueblo would care or metro would care if Pueblo did care lol.

[wong21fr]

Yeah, I'm guessing that it was CU as well.

Why wouldn't UCCS ever add football?

[Eeyore]

What I have heard is that they don't want to compete with the Air Force Academy. Perhaps it is the same reason Metro does not add football with CU Boulder?

That being said CSU - Pueblo and UCCS are very competitive schools so now that CSU Pueblo has a team and it is working very well in attracting students I could see UCCS re-visiting their policy. I think it would be a tough sale but you never know.

[acw007]

I came across something very interesting today. I found massing concepts of downtown Fort Collins if build out were to happen with the current zoning standards.
This first photo shows the current massing looking north east from Mulberry Street & Canyon Avenue:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/acwilson007/now2.jpg

and future massing with current zoning laws. 5-6 story buildings are in orange, 7-9 are in brown, and 10-12 are in red.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/acwilson007/later2.jpg

Here's the current massing from around Mulberry Street & Howes:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/acwilson007/now1.jpg

and the future:
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/acwilson007/later1.jpg

What makes these photos even more exciting to me is that I know of more than 10 of the buildings on there that are in various stages of development. Including seven four-five story buildings, one seven story building, two 9 story, and one 12 story. The Future looks DENSE. If just the projects that I know of get built by 2020 when they revisit the zoning heights we'll be in pretty good shape to get so 15+ story buildings.

[Eeyore]

That is nice. I think you will see a lot happen once this recession is over....

Question is that all or most of your downtown in the graphic? Sheilds on the on the west side of Mason and I don't think downtown goes much father east then College Ave.

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/downtownpueblo-1.jpg

I was trying to find a picture that would show all of downtown Pueblo and this is the best I could find. This is about 1/2 of Pueblo's downtown as many things are missing including midtown, Parkview medical center, Mineral palace park, the Riverwalk area, ice house, the grove, Baseball stadium and lake. Also, you can only see 1 of the 4 exits from I-25 into the downtown area. That being said I think it gives a idea of just how big downtown Pueblo is, especially if you consider this is only 1/2 of it.

Just picture what Pueblo would look like with a few 20 plus story highrise's, a dense Riverwalk area and some nice highrise condo buildings around Mineral Palace Park! I can see that happening in the next 11 years.

[acw007]

That is nice. I think you will see a lot happen once this recession is over....

Question is that all or most of your downtown in the graphic? Sheilds on the on the west side of Mason and I don't think downtown goes much father east then College Ave.

You have an oddly warped sense of scale. That area represents about a third of the downtown core. There are a good ten blocks between shields and mason & downtown is four to six blocks on either side of college depending on the location.

[Eeyore]

You have an oddly warped sense of scale. That area represents about a third of the downtown core. There are a good ten blocks between shields and mason & downtown is four to six blocks on either side of college depending on the location.

LOL that is true.

[Eeyore]

The National Weather Service In Pueblo Has Issued A Winter Storm
Watch...which Is In Effect From Late Thursday Night Through
Saturday Morning.

This Watch Is For The Sangre De Cristo Mountains...the Wet
Mountains And Wet Mountain Valley...southern And Eastern Fremont
County...pueblo County...and The Southern I-25 Corridor Including
Huerfano County And Western Las Animas County.

As A Storm System Moves From The Four Corners Area Thursday
Afternoon...and Then Across Northern New Mexico On Friday...heavy
Snow Is Expected To Fall Over The Southeast Mountains And The
Interstate 25 Corridor. Total Snow Accumulations During The Watch
Time-frame Could Range From One To Two Feet For The Mountain
Areas...with 6 Inches Or More Possible Across The I-25 Corridor.

Snow Amounts May Be Highly Variable Across Pueblo County As
Precipitation Switches Back And Forth From Rain To Snow. Southern
And Western Portions Of Pueblo County Will Likely See The
Heaviest Amounts.

Precautionary/preparedness Actions...

A Winter Storm Watch Is Issued When There Is The Potential For
Severe Winter Weather Conditions To Develop.

Winter Storms May Have Strong Winds And Reduced Visibility Due To
Heavy Snowfall And Blowing Snow. Snow Accumulations Of Over
6 Inches Across The Plains And High Valleys Or Over 8 Inches In
The Mountains May Occur. If You Are Planning To Travel In The
Watch Area During The Time Of The Watch...listen To The Latest
Weather Forecast And Consider Traveling At Another Time Or By
Another Route. If You Must Travel In Or Through The Watch Area
During The Time Of The Watch...take Along A Winter Survival Kit

[Eeyore]

I think overall this is good. Pueblo did not get everything we wanted but that is the definition of a compromise.

I decided to post both the Chieftain and Gazette so you can see the difference in coverage.

The Gazette:

City Council approves SDS pipeline conditions

By an 8-1 vote, the Colorado Springs City Council on Tuesday ushered in a new era of good feelings between the city and Pueblo.

The Council approved the conditions set by Pueblo County to build the $1.1 billion Southern Delivery System water pipeline from Pueblo Reservoir. Officials from both communities then shook hands and spoke of a new spirit of cooperation, where there was once litigation and mistrust, over water issues.

The pipeline, in the planning for more than a decade, will bring 78 million gallons a day to the Springs, enough to meet anticipated demand through 2046.

There are numerous state and federal approvals still needed, but Pueblo County was considered the largest hurdle. Approval there once seemed so elusive that Colorado Springs Utilities advanced a backup plan to build the pipeline from Fremont County. Pueblo commissioners will vote April 21 to issue a 1041 land-use permit, named for the legislation that gives counties authority over multi-jurisdictional projects.

Pueblo's conditions require Colorado Springs to give $50 million to the new Fountain Creek Watershed District, a consortium of local governments and organizations working to improve the creek, and to spend $75 million on wastewater or water reuse improvements here by the end of 2024. Other conditions address construction, land acquisition and flows in the Arkansas River.

Fountain Creek suffers from erosion, water quality and flooding issues, problems that could be exacerbated by sending more treated effluent from the pipeline downstream.

Council members said the conditions are things Colorado Springs should have done long ago.

"We have to recognize we have a responsibility to take action, not only for Colorado Springs, but for all of our region, to protect this very valuable resource we have on Fountain Creek," said Councilman Larry Small.

Councilman Darryl Glenn said the regional approach should extend north as well as south, and he voted for approval because the conditions allow Colorado Springs to provide water to northern El Paso County water users.

"We have to change the way we view water management. We need to manage water and the impacts of water on a regional basis, and I do believe this is a solid step forward," Glenn said.

The dissenting vote came from Councilman Tom Gallagher, who said he believes water demand here will outpace the pipeline's capacity in 20 years, and Colorado Springs will have to find more water.

"I believe this community will be here long after the year 2046 and I don't believe this solution helps those future generations of people," Gallagher said.

What isn't locked in is the route. Utilities officials will return to the council later this year to ask which route the pipeline should take ? though Pueblo has always been the preferred route, and it is $150 million cheaper than the Fremont County route. Colorado Springs officials have said they hope to start building the pipeline this year; the permit allows them up to three years.

The three Pueblo County commissioners attended Tuesday's council meeting, and echoed a new spirit of inter-county cooperation.

"Finally there is ownership of Fountain Creek. It's not a no man's land where we don't know what's going to happen," said Commissioner Jeff Chostner.

"Today the curtain between Colorado Springs and Pueblo has been raised," said commissioner Anthony Nunez.

The Chieftain:

Springs OKs county SDS rules

COLORADO SPRINGS - Colorado Springs City Council cleared the way Tuesday for the Southern Delivery System to be built from Pueblo Dam by approving Pueblo County’s terms and conditions for the $1.1 billion pipeline project.

Now, Colorado Springs Utilities will spend the next few months evaluating the expense and scheduling of the Pueblo County route versus a fallback option in Fremont County to determine where the pipeline will go. Pueblo County commissioners are expected to give final approval to the 1041 permit next Tuesday.

Fremont County commissioners approved permits in February and continue to meet with Colorado Springs Utilities about the possibility of that route.

“We need to choose the route before the end of the year,” Mayor Lionel Rivera said. “We’re working on the alignment through El Paso County, so we have to know where we’re coming in.”

Although the decision hasn’t been made, it sure sounded like the pipeline would come through Pueblo, however, with many calling Tuesday’s vote “historic,” including Rivera. “This is a new beginning for Pueblo and El Paso counties to work together for regional economic development,” Rivera said.

Amid much hoopla - a bagpiper played in honor of Margaret Radford’s last day on the board - the council voted 8-1 to approve Pueblo County’s terms and conditions, which include $50 million for Fountain Creek improvements and $75 million in sewer fortifications. The entire list has 30 conditions which cover everything from construction impacts to road replacement to water quality monitoring.

“Utility systems don’t get built by one generation,” said Radford, who was hailed by Rivera and other council members as instrumental in gaining Pueblo’s cooperation in a 2004 agreement that began thawing relations between the two cities. “The dream of a few became the heart’s desire of so many.”

That sentiment was shared by most of her fellow council members, with the exception of Tom Gallagher, who has all along criticized utilities for its tunnel vision in striving to develop the Pueblo Dam option.

“I believe this community will be here long after 2046,” Gallagher said. “I don’t think this solution will help future generations.”

Gallagher remained skeptical that there is any doubt where the pipeline route will be.

“It’s all smoke, because by committing $125 million to meet the terms and conditions of Pueblo County, it locks us into place,” Gallagher said.

Officially, that’s not the case.

Council also voted to continue working with Fremont County to uphold commitments made earlier this year to obtain a permit for the fall-back version of SDS. Building the Fremont County route would be longer, more expensive and less reliable because it relies on a river intake rather than a reservoir. However, Pueblo County’s conditions are more costly.

Utilities staff made it clear its course has not been poured in concrete.

“This is not a decision on timing or alignment,” said Bruce McCormick, chief of water services. “We are involved in a process of business review that will decide the cost, that will decide the timing.”

Councilman Darryl Glenn voted in favor of Pueblo conditions after staff assured him that northern El Paso County communities would be able to use the pipeline for water supplies.

In his remarks at the meeting, Pueblo County Commissioner Jeff Chostner said northern El Paso County's use of the pipeline is fine, so long as water is not taken over the Palmer Divide into the South Platte basin.

Chostner also hailed the agreement as beneficial to Fountain Creek, pointing out that the money for improvements will not go to Pueblo County or Pueblo, but to the newly formed Fountain Creek Flood Control and Greenway District, a joint body that represents interests in both counties.

“Fountain Creek will not continue to be a no-man’s land, but can become a true amenity,” Chostner said. He also praised the benefits to the Arkansas River that would come of preserving the Pueblo flow agreement and regional cooperation. “I look to this as an opportunity for our communities to work together. . . . Let’s move forward.”

Pueblo’s other commissioners also made brief statements at Tuesday’s meeting.

“I hope our crystal ball is better than yours,” John Cordova said, addressing Gallagher directly.

“Today, the curtain between Pueblo and El Paso counties has been raised,” said Anthony Nunez.

Colorado Springs Vice Mayor Larry Small, who attended many of the meetings that led to the creation of the Fountain Creek district, came closest to expressing a sense of atonement in accepting the Pueblo County conditions.

“With size, power and might comes responsibility,” Small said, comparing Colorado Springs’ role in the Arkansas River basin to the United States in international affairs. “We have not been as diligent on Fountain Creek as we should have been.”

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0896-1.jpg

Sunset over my favorite highrise in Pueblo!

[acw007]

I wouldn't mind adding some pueblo highrises to the diagram. If you post more pictures I could get on that soon.

[Eeyore]

Ok. Can you tell me what the diagram is? I saw it but was not sure. Also, what kind of pictures and how tall do the buildings need to be?

[acw007]

The diagram is a database of highrise buildings all over the world. Pictures should show detail and scale of the building since that is what I will base the drawing off of the more detailed the better. Buildings should be 110 ft +

[The Dirt]

He's talking about the Pueblo diagram page drawings. Currently, there are no building entries there - drawn or otherwise. Perhaps you (Eeyore) should submit some entries so Acw can draw some buildings for your city, as he has for Ft. Collins.

[Eeyore]

Do I just post the pictures of the buildings?

[acw007]

Exactly. Then I will draw the buildings for the database.

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0305-1.jpg

Vail Hotel 5 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0393-1.jpg

17 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0391-1.jpg

14 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0389-1.jpg

Quest 8 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0385-1.jpg

Thatcher 7 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0410.jpg

parkview 6 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0405-1.jpg

St Mary Crowin Medical Art building 7 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0403-1.jpg

St mary Corwin main building, 7 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0396-1.jpg

12 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0394-1.jpg

16 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0411-1.jpg

Colorado State hospital 7 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0408.jpg

Parkview Medical Arts building 5 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0473.jpg

Heavy Industrial building, not smoke stacks. 300 feet or 30 stories. All occupied.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0552.jpg

7 stories

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0620.jpg

Wells Fargo 9 or 10 stories.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0624.jpg

Quest again in Pueblo

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0775.jpg

woops in Denver! My bad. I bet I made you take a double take lol :haha:

There are more I need to get, I will do it this week! :tup:

[acw007]

Maybe 5 of those count, but I'll see what I can do. I need to dig up some info. Some of the things you said don't add up. Also is that Quest building an actual office building or one of their industrial building things?

By most standards nothing under 10 stories is going to count and industrial buildings are an entirely different class.

[Eeyore]

The quest building is one of their main office buildings.

Pueblo was getting highrise's in the 1960's and 1970's, when most of these were built, then the economy collapsed and the Real Estate market had a complete meltdown and not much got built since then. This is the first year that the economy has rebounded enough to where they are proposing them again.

[PLANSIT]

^Half of your building stated heights in "stories" are wrong. You don't count mechanical as a story at the top of those buildings, just like you don't count antennae in height calculations.

For example this building is not 16 floors, it is 14 with 1 mechanical:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ptownsnwbrdr/Untitled-1-1.jpg

Another angle:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c251/ptownsnwbrdr/untitled-5.jpg

[Eeyore]

Actually, you can count the antenna as the height, it is part of the defination and was proven on here earlier. Now I understnad there is debate on rather you should go with the top of the antenna for the height of the building. I am in the camp that says you can, thus, I will always give the height of the building using the antenna.

As far as the mechanical story, that is still a story so I can and will call it a floor.

Nice view of the highrise though, thanks for posting that!

[PLANSIT]

Actually, you can count the antenna as the height, it is part of the defination and was proven on here earlier. Now I understnad there is debate on rather you should go with the top of the antenna for the height of the building. I am in the camp that says you can, thus, I will always give the height of the building using the antenna.

As far as the mechanical story, that is still a story so I can and will call it a floor.

Nice view of the highrise though, thanks for posting that!

Whatever you want to make up in your mind is your priority, but facts are facts and you've lost that discussion. Spires are considered an architectural element of the building, nearly all antennae are not.

Furthermore, building height in stories is categorized by highest occupied floor. The thing on top of that building is not occupied, therefore, it does not count. Regardless, common sense would indicate, if we were going by your made rules, that the building has 15 floors at the most, not 16.

In conclusion, you have to remember that when acw007 draws the diagram; businesses, local agencies, and the media have been known to use skyscraperpage's diagrams as a resource. They need to be accurate, as to ensure the validity of this site as a source, so the exaggerations and half-truths must stop.

[Eeyore]

Whatever you want to make up in your mind is your priority, but facts are facts and you've lost that discussion. Spires are considered an architectural element of the building, nearly all antennae are not.

Furthermore, building height in stories is categorized by highest occupied floor. The thing on top of that building is not occupied, therefore, it does not count. Regardless, common sense would indicate, if we were going by your made rules, that the building has 15 floors at the most, not 16.

In conclusion, you have to remember that when acw007 draws the diagram; businesses, local agencies, and the media have been known to use skyscraperpage's diagrams as a resource. They need to be accurate, as to ensure the validity of this site as a source, so the exaggerations and half-truths must stop.

I did not give any heights because on most of the buildings I don't know. I don't remember the exact definition and I don't want to go back and look it up but it is in a earlier post. In it one of the ways to calculate a buildings height was by the antenna and there is debate on which is the "correct" way. Like I said I am in the camp that says go by the antenna but at the same time I don't try to deceive anyone and say I am going by the building, everyone knows what I go by that is the main issue. If I lied that would be another story.

The same is true about the mechanical house, everyone knows I include that so all they have to do is take it out if they don't feel that is the proper way to count the number of stories on a highrise. Its not like I pretend that I am not looking at it then count it in. My point on it is unless they have a desk and chair on the roof of the building then its a occupied room as they use it for work and I will call it a floor.

Quite honestly in the grand scheme of things it does not matter, right now Pueblo is not known for our highrises and until some get built that are 20 or even 30 plus stories that wont change, my saying a building is 17 instead of 16 stories will not change people perception.

[citycenter]

I was searching online and ran across this company that is advertising property on the south side of Pueblo

http://www.netleaserealtyadvisors.com/5301.html

I called them to probe about what they were up to ... the guy was pretty tight lipped and only said they were in discussions with a couple "users" for south pueblo, but that there were no eminent announcements... anyone know anything about this?

[Eeyore]

I was searching online and ran across this company that is advertising property on the south side of Pueblo

http://www.netleaserealtyadvisors.com/5301.html

I called them to probe about what they were up to ... the guy was pretty tight lipped and only said they were in discussions with a couple "users" for south pueblo, but that there were no eminent announcements... anyone know anything about this?

I have heard of the developments and I know city council is hoping with Lows and Vesta's moving in you will see that area finally develop. Perhaps that is where the destination retailer is going. One good spot would be the location of the old drive in theater as it was located at Pueblo Blvd and I-25.

[PLANSIT]

I did not give any heights because on most of the buildings I don't know. I don't remember the exact definition and I don't want to go back and look it up but it is in a earlier post. In it one of the ways to calculate a buildings height was by the antenna and there is debate on which is the "correct" way. Like I said I am in the camp that says go by the antenna but at the same time I don't try to deceive anyone and say I am going by the building, everyone knows what I go by that is the main issue. If I lied that would be another story.

The same is true about the mechanical house, everyone knows I include that so all they have to do is take it out if they don't feel that is the proper way to count the number of stories on a highrise. Its not like I pretend that I am not looking at it then count it in. My point on it is unless they have a desk and chair on the roof of the building then its a occupied room as they use it for work and I will call it a floor.

Quite honestly in the large scheme of things it does not matter, right now Pueblo is not known for our highrises and until some get built that are 20 or even 30 plus stories that wont change, my saying a building is 17 instead of 16 stories will not change people perception.

You never learn, do you?

Have you been to the diagram section?

[Eeyore]

I found what I was looking for:

The Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH) is an international body in the field of tall buildings and sustainable urban design. A not-for-profit organization based at the Illinois Institute of Technology in the city of Chicago, Illinois, the CTBUH announces the title of ‘The World’s Tallest Building’ and is an authority on the official height of tall buildings. Its stated mission is to study and report "on all aspects of the planning, design, and construction of tall buildings."




Ranking tall buildings
The CTBUH ranks the height of buildings using four different methods:

1. Height to architectural top of the building. This is the main criterion under which the CTBUH ranks the height of buildings. Height measurements begin at sidewalk and run to the top of the building, inclusive of spires but excluding items such as flag poles or antennas.
2. To highest occupied floor: Height to the floor of the highest occupied floor of the building.
3. To top of roof: Height to the top of the roof.
4. To tip of spire/antenna: Height to the tip of spire, pinnacle, antenna, mast or flag pole.

The link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Tall_Buildings_and_Urban_Habitat

I perfer option 4.

[wong21fr]

It doesn't matter if you prefer option 4. Method 1 is the main criteria, and the excepted standard, for determining the height of buildings.

You may prefer the metric system to the "American system", but it's not going to matter for most standards in the US.

[Eeyore]

"The CTBUH ranks the height of buildings using four different methods"



The bottom line it is still a accepted method, its not like I am making up numbers.

[The Dirt]

Eeyore, I swear when you're replying you have your fingers in your ears and you're saying "La la la la la la".

Acw doesn't need floor numbers to draw buildings, anyway. All he needs is a reliable roof height and total height, otherwise whatever he submits to SSP will get rejected. Actually, he won't even be able to submit a drawing unless someone submits building info to SSP for Pueblo buildings.

[Eeyore]

Eeyore, I swear when you're replying you have your fingers in your ears and you're saying "La la la la la la".

Acw doesn't need floor numbers to draw buildings, anyway. All he needs is a reliable roof height and total height, otherwise whatever he submits to SSP will get rejected. Actually, he won't even be able to submit a drawing unless someone submits building info to SSP for Pueblo buildings.

Then its all a moot point because I have said that I do not know the height of the buildings, only the Wells Fargo building at 209 feet.

[acw007]

Your opinion on the matter doesn’t really matter when 90% of the buildings you posted photos of don't qualify for the diagram. Sadly, even the Wells Fargo building doesn't measure up. To qualify for the diagram the buildings needs to have a roof height of 115 ft + or 35 meters. By my calculations the Wells Fargo building is about 105 ft tall. I am a tad disappointed though, considering I already did the drawing…

also I can request buildings with out an official roof height as long as they are 12 floors or higher and I can prove they exist.

[The Dirt]

Well, you can still upload it as lowrise. It'll just be harder to find on the diagram.

[Eeyore]

Your opinion on the matter doesn’t really matter when 90% of the buildings you posted photos of don't qualify for the diagram. Sadly, even the Wells Fargo building doesn't measure up. To qualify for the diagram the buildings needs to have a roof height of 115 ft + or 35 meters. By my calculations the Wells Fargo building is about 105 ft tall. I am a tad disappointed though, considering I already did the drawing…

also I can request buildings with out an official roof height as long as they are 12 floors or higher and I can prove they exist.

OK. It is what it is. I think if the economic meltdown had not happened in the 1980's we would have more by now but that's ok.

A high-rise is a tall building or structure. Normally, the function of the building is added, for example high-rise apartment building or high-rise offices.

High-rise buildings became possible with the invention of the elevator (lift) and cheaper, more abundant building materials. Buildings between 75 feet (23 m) and 491 feet (150 m) high are, by some standards, considered high-rises. Buildings taller than 492 feet (150 m) are classified as skyscrapers. The average height of a level is around 13 feet (4 m) high, thus a 79 foot (24 m) tall building would comprise 6 floors.

That would mean all but the Vail hotel would be considered a highrise. That is ok with me.

[The Dirt]

200 feet and above is a highrise on SSP.

[Eeyore]

200 feet and above is a highrise on SSP.

That is fine.

I do think that untill Pueblo gets a few highrises above 250 to 300 feet we will not be known as a highrise city, no matter what the defination is.

[Eeyore]

As usual Pueblo is the ONLY major city on the Front range not getting a major snow storm. We have had, rain, thunderstorms, and hail. I saw sleet for a minute, got happy then the sun came out. Not a good day for Eeyore, my name defiantly shows how I feel today.

:grrr:

[citycenter]

what's happening with the old dog track in south pueblo? I heard some industrial user was looking at it?

[Eeyore]

what's happening with the old dog track in south pueblo? I heard some industrial user was looking at it?

I have to admit you get more information then I do. I did hear from Pueblo strong that Target and Home Depot wants to build in that area. I have asked my source on the other information and she has heard generally things are going on but nothing specific.

lately I have not been involved in Pedco as much as I need to be, I need to back in that more.

[Eeyore]

Thanks to city center I got off my rear end and went down to Pedco, I was asked to be on the marketing committee and just did not follow up. Well now its official I am on it and meet next week.

I found out some broad things I can talk about here.

1. A big medical company is looking to move to Pueblo, PEDCo is waiting to hear back.

2. There will be a HUGE destination retail store moving to Pueblo. PEDCo does not deal with that so that is all they know.

3. There are a few companies moving to Pueblo that will be suppliers to Vesta's, they will employ 50 to 100 each.

[citycenter]

is Pueblostrong a broker? where are target and HD going to locate?

[Eeyore]

is Pueblostrong a broker? where are target and HD going to locate?

He is not a broker, he is just like me who has family and friends in high places in Pueblo. Geting information in Pueblo is not based on what you know but who you know, we are still a small city like that.

If my memory serves me right Home Depot would be by the Lows, they like to flock together lol Target will build a Super Target north of American Funiture and a normal Target down south by the old lake drive inn. I have the map for the one north of town, if you want to see it I can post it.

The 40 acer site you had shows a home depot in it......

This devlopment shows the Super Target and a Burlington Coat factory: http://www.customdesignbuilder.com/fgallery.php?index=c-015-06

It seems like 150,000 people was some kind of measurement re-tailors look at. As soon as Pueblo hit 150,000 people there seemed to be a lot of activity. Maybe that was just because we are growing again and has nothing to do with the actual number but it is intriguing.

[citycenter]

somehow I missed seeing HD on there.... I would like to see what info you have for Target.....

[Eeyore]

I added if after look back on the post and go through the drawings.

[acw007]

As usual Pueblo is the ONLY major city on the Front range not getting a major snow storm. We have had, rain, thunderstorms, and hail. I saw sleet for a minute, got happy then the sun came out. Not a good day for Eeyore, my name defiantly shows how I feel today.

:grrr:

You aren't the only one to be disappointed. When I went to bed this morning around 6 they were claiming we would see 18 inches of snow and to my surprise there was only about an inch on the ground when I woke up.

[CS-Urbanist]

This first photo shows the current massing looking north east from Mulberry

Cool diagrams! :tup:

[CS-Urbanist]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0389-1.jpg

Quest 8 stories


Is there a category for really ugly buildings? I think we have a winner!

[CS-Urbanist]

I was hoping to see some results on Colorado Springs Planning Commission for the Form-based code from yesterday on here. Does anyone have any information?

[Eeyore]

That was the favorite design in the 1960's, I know Denver has a few like it. Its not my favorite building but its a period one that I think its good.

I have been giving some thought as to why there is a lot of retail activity in Pueblo again. Pueblo has always had more shopping then we should because of our location then the economic and real estate melt down happened in the 1980's and everything stopped. Now that we are growing again you are seeing that because of our location retail establishments would rather be in Pueblo over Colorado Springs. Not because Pueblo is better but just more covenant for people in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico.

[CS-Urbanist]

I have been giving some thought as to why there is a lot of retail activity in Pueblo again. Pueblo has always had more shopping then we should because of our location then the economic and real estate melt down happened in the 1980's and everything stopped. Now that we are growing again you are seeing that because of our location retail establishments would rather be in Pueblo over Colorado Springs. Not because Pueblo is better but just more covenant for people in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico.

I guess I could see Pueblo as being the closest retail place for places on the southeastern plains, northern New Mexico and even places in the mountains like Salida. I can buy into your logic on this... Colorado Springs is seeing all of it's previous big box retail die right now and vacate their buildings. I would rather not see any more big box retail personally, but economically I would of course rather have CS have it then Pueblo.

Speaking of retail, does anyone have any understanding of what will happen to the Chapel Hills Mall in CS now that the owner has filed Ch. 11 bankruptcy?

[Eeyore]

I have not heard anything specifically but I can tell you what happened to the Pueblo Mall when that happened. They sold it and new owners took over, the last time they re-modeled it so now its doing better.

This was in the Chieftain today:

A two-month upturn in sales and the opening of a new clothing store find The Pueblo Mall's management upbeat.

Tim Schweitzer, the mall's general manager, said Thursday that year-to-date sales are running 2.4 higher than a year ago.

The mall also recently marked the opening of a new store, rue21. The retailer of boys and girls clothing leased a 4,000-square-feet site, Schweitzer said.

"We're doing really well . . . knock on wood," Schweitzer said.

The Pueblo Mall is owned by Renaissance Partners of Chicago, a large property company. The Pueblo complex is the firm's only mall holding, Schweitzer said. The mall is managed by Jones Lange LaSalle.

My point is I am sure in the long run the mall with be ok, it might have new owners though.

[Eeyore]

BTW I did no want to post it but the Denver post had a front page article today on the USOC and how they might leave the Springs......

[acw007]

I guess I could see Pueblo as being the closest retail place for places on the southeastern plains, northern New Mexico and even places in the mountains like Salida. I can buy into your logic on this... Colorado Springs is seeing all of it's previous big box retail die right now and vacate their buildings. I would rather not see any more big box retail personally, but economically I would of course rather have CS have it then Pueblo.

Speaking of retail, does anyone have any understanding of what will happen to the Chapel Hills Mall in CS now that the owner has filed Ch. 11 bankruptcy?

GGP also owns the Foothills Mall here and they say it's business as usual. The company has been promising a massive overhaul of our mall and from what I've heard it would have been amazing, but the plans died when Dillards pulled out and decided to build in Loveland at the Grand Station project that is now dead. It will be interesting to see what Dillards plans are considering they closed their only store in northern Colorado to build a new one that isn't going to happen. I'm hoping they give us a second look when they economic climate improves.

[Eeyore]

GGP also owns the Foothills Mall here and they say it's business as usual. The company has been promising a massive overhaul of our mall and from what I've heard it would have been amazing, but the plans died when Dillards pulled out and decided to build in Loveland at the Grand Station project that is now dead. It will be interesting to see what Dillards plans are considering they closed their only store in northern Colorado to build a new one that isn't going to happen. I'm hoping they give us a second look when they economic climate improves.


I am sure Dillards will do something, that is a big market not to be in. The question is will it be in Fort Collins or Loveland?

You guys are in a unique position. I wonder how many counties have two principal cities that compete. I could imagine what the fights would be like if Pueblo and Colorado Springs was in the same county. It will be interesting to see how the two cities develop in the future.

[Eeyore]

I just read where the city council is going to annex another piece of land into Pueblo. This one is called North Vista and is located north of 47th street and west of Troy Ave, that is north of the university. The Chieftain reported last year that with Pueblo Springs being annexed in the city a number of smaller annexations where going to happen as well by other developers, that seems to be the case.

[acw007]

It's not really a competition, but if Loveland did get the Dillards it would be because of one simple fact. Loveland is a whore. They labeled pristine farm land blighted, handed millions of dollars over to greedy developers, and used flagpole annexations to build giant strip malls at every corner and highway interchange. Loveland is the development whore of northern Colorado. But it works, right? Not really. Take a stroll threw the sprawl that is Centerra and you will be amazed at the glut of vacant retail.
Loveland is lucky the economic gods killed the "Grand Station" It would have been the nail in the coffin to there so called downtown.
Sure the project was lovely, I just hate these fake ass faux urban developments. They even tried to mimic our downtown in the design with faux victorian buildings and a "historic" trolley. Thank you development jesus it didn't make it off the drawing boards lol.

[Eeyore]

It's not really a competition, but if Loveland did get the Dillards it would be because of one simple fact. Loveland is a whore. They labeled pristine farm land blighted, handed millions of dollars over to greedy developers, and used flagpole annexations to build giant strip malls at every corner and highway interchange. Loveland is the development whore of northern Colorado. But it works, right? Not really. Take a stroll threw the sprawl that is Centerra and you will be amazed at the glut of vacant retail.
Loveland is lucky the economic gods killed the "Grand Station" It would have been the nail in the coffin to there so called downtown.
Sure the project was lovely, I just hate these fake ass faux urban developments. They even tried to mimic our downtown in the design with faux victorian buildings and a "historic" trolley. Thank you development jesus it didn't make it off the drawing boards lol.

"Loveland is a whore"

That has to be the comment of the week! I cant wait to hear my cousin when I tell him you said that lol.

As far as their downtown, I don't think they care. They say they do but kind of like Colorado Springs they only have words and no action. If they really cared they would of put the new hotel and convention center at the old county fairgrounds and increased the size of their downtown with some kind of Riverwalk. Then it would of given downtown Fort Collins a run for its money. Instead I think that development, altough nice, is the death blow to their downtown.

I read this about Loveland:

Loveland is to Fort Collins what Longmont is to Boulder. Unfortunately for urbanists Loveland grew up during the 1970s and 80s - a period marked with little thought given to downtown and much to sprawling subdivisions. As such downtown Loveland more resembles that of a town of 15,000 rather than a city of 50,000

The link: http://denverskyscrapers.com/urbancolorado/cities/loveland.html

[Eeyore]

off topic but this is very funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQVT2SC3M0

[Eeyore]

Pueblo strong found this on line about Pueblo Springs ranch, this shows the development is still alive and well. When complete this will change the economy in the whole state and Denver will no longer be the economic center!


CVL is currently working annexing 24,000 acres north of Pueblo, Colorado, known as Pueblo Springs Ranch, into the City of Pueblo on behalf of the landowner. CVL is responsible for the preparation of the annexation plats, master planning, master drainage studies, the offsite and onsite water distribution systems for 2 pressure zones, and the location of onsite water storage facilities. The conceptual design of multiple options for the sanitary sewer system has also been accomplished. The resulting masterplan will include many commercial and community centers, vast open space and recreational areas, and up to 70,000 residences within this exciting project, located adjacent to the Fountain Creek. CVL also provides coordination with other development consultants on behalf of the client.

The link: http://www.cvldenver.com/

As a reminder this is what CU said about Pueblo:

oPueblo County - Historically, Pueblo County has experienced moderate population growth. This trend will change when the Pueblo Springs Ranch is complete. The 23,000-acre subdivision in northeast Pueblo County is expected to have about 75,000 households, or 200,000 people when completed. The Historic Arkansas Riverwalk Project has begun to pay the economic dividends its creators intended. In August 2007, the new 44,000-square-foot headquarters of the Professional Bull Riders Association was dedicated, and new restaurants and other establishments have opened near the new building.



http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/Pueblo_Springs_Ranch.jpg

One thing I noticed on this map is how the roads will extend into El Paso county. I have heard that there was a strong possibility that the city of Pueblo could eventually extend into El Paso country. I kind of diss-missed it but this map makes me wonder if what I heard was right.

[The Dirt]

diss-missed

lol

[Eeyore]

lol

I know, I could not figure out how to spell that word and for some reason my spell check was no help, I guess I was that far off lol

If they gave out awards for worse speller I would win.

[citycenter]

Eeyore: I have to be honest and say that Pueblo will NEVER be competition for DENVER; not now, not ever in the future.

Pueblo's niche is to compete against colorado springs, which it has done very well for the past few years. Now if pueblo can just start to retain the students coming out of the university, we may actually see things change in that town.

Pueblo has a lot of things going for it that could help it outpace colorado springs in the future.

1- Riverwalk
2- N/S and E/W highway infrastructure
3- Airport industrial park
4- No view restrictions downtown prohibiting mid and high-rise development
5- water


The problem pueblo has is that 90% of the educated and/or successful people end of LEAVING pueblo in order to advance their careers, lifestyle, or education. There has historically been nothing to keep pueblo in that town, thus it has become a fairly stagnant retirement community.

[Eeyore]

Eeyore: I have to be honest and say that Pueblo will NEVER be competition for DENVER; not now, not ever in the future.

Pueblo's niche is to compete against colorado springs, which it has done very well for the past few years. Now if pueblo can just start to retain the students coming out of the university, we may actually see things change in that town.

Pueblo has a lot of things going for it that could help it outpace colorado springs in the future.

1- Riverwalk
2- N/S and E/W highway infrastructure
3- Airport industrial park
4- No view restrictions downtown prohibiting mid and high-rise development
5- water


The problem pueblo has is that 90% of the educated and/or successful people end of LEAVING pueblo in order to advance their careers, lifestyle, or education. There has historically been nothing to keep pueblo in that town, thus it has become a fairly stagnant retirement community.

Agreed, Pueblo alone will never compete against Denver but that makes sense as Denver is more just Denver but a collection of large cities that Denver is the principal city. Thus, I believe with Pueblo growing that will cause this region to have large companies that will allow us to compete with the region up north. That being said I don't think we will ever be larger then the Denver metro area but the Denver area will no longer be seen as the states only large metro area either.

I, also, agree the "brain drain" has been a issue for Pueblo and I hope new developments like Pueblo Springs, the new solar park and the Colorado Energy Park will help solve it. Pueblo is a great place to live and work and I think with the steel mill now being clean industry major companies are finally looking at Pueblo as we are no longer seen as the "dirty" city but in fact we have the best air quality of all the major cities in the state.

The ironic thing is Colorado Springs is trapped in a mold that Pueblo was trapped in and allowed them to pass us. Pueblo was the "dirty steel town" the Springs is the "military" and "bible belt" town. As long as the Springs is happy like that they will never become more then they are now. I think they will even see less shopping as people in southern Colorado and Pueblo will shop in Pueblo and as we get the major stores. Again, just like I said earlier, that is not because Pueblo is better but based on location.

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0908.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0911.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0914.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0915.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0916.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0917.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0918.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0919.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/IMG_0921.jpg

I got some great views of the mountains! See Pueblo does have a great mountain back drop!

[Paulopolis]

Hey Eeyore, where did you take those pictures? I love all the snow on the Wet Mountains.

[Eeyore]

There is a little hill just to the east of downtown next to bypass 50. There is a hotel there, I went to the back parking lot and took these pictures. I will go back this afternoon when the sun is out and before the snow melts to get more. This is a awsome view!

[acw007]

"Loveland is a whore"

That has to be the comment of the week! I cant wait to hear my cousin when I tell him you said that lol.

As far as their downtown, I don't think they care. They say they do but kind of like Colorado Springs they only have words and no action. If they really cared they would of put the new hotel and convention center at the old county fairgrounds and increased the size of their downtown with some kind of Riverwalk. Then it would of given downtown Fort Collins a run for its money. Instead I think that development, altough nice, is the death blow to their downtown.

I read this about Loveland:

Loveland is to Fort Collins what Longmont is to Boulder. Unfortunately for urbanists Loveland grew up during the 1970s and 80s - a period marked with little thought given to downtown and much to sprawling subdivisions. As such downtown Loveland more resembles that of a town of 15,000 rather than a city of 50,000

The link: http://denverskyscrapers.com/urbancolorado/cities/loveland.html

Loveland is making an effort to better their downtown but its a little too late. They sealed their fate when they annexed land four miles from the edge of town at I-25 to build strip malls. They are so proud of their strip malls that they even started moving city government buildings there. That shows you what Loveland values are like. It's sad when culture in your city going to P. F. Chang's...

[Eeyore]

Loveland is making an effort to better their downtown but its a little too late. They sealed their fate when they annexed land four miles from the edge of town at I-25 to build strip malls. They are so proud of their strip malls that they even started moving city government buildings there. That shows you what Loveland values are like. It's sad when culture in your city going to P. F. Chang's...

I am all for growth, as you know, but I think that a city needs to spend a lot of time on their downtown too. Like it or not cities are not judged on how good their suburbs are but their downtowns! That being said I do think that a city does need large population to have a better downtown so a good mix is what is needed for the best downtown. I am just making a educated guess here but I think that a minimum size metro for a decent sice downtown with highrises is about 250,000 people. Any thoughts?

[CS-Urbanist]

I am just making a educated guess here but I think that a minimum size metro for a decent sice downtown with highrises is about 250,000 people. Any thoughts?

I don't think you need that. I think what really counts is how you restrict growth horizontally to accomplish the critical mass within. My feeling is that Boulder is going to be the city 30 years from now with the greatest downtown. They have the right idea, however political it might be. There are many cities with around 100k population that have fantastic downtowns (even with skyscrapers). The other thing in my mind is not spread out horizontally the downtown itself. That is going to be Pueblo's shortfall because the "downtown" is so spread out.

I would prefer a more uniform downtowns with height maximums of 8 stories to spread out the mass rather than have a couple "towers in the park (or parking lot)".

[Eeyore]

Those are some good points, although I am not sure I agree with on Boulder having the best downtown. Its nice and having CU there helps it a lot but I think the title will go to Pueblo, I know you are saying sure Eeyore ofcourse you think that but let me give you my thought process.

You correctly state that Pueblo's biggest hindrance is the geographic size of our downtown and I agree and I think that is why I base my figure of 250,000 people for a good size downtown as I was using Pueblo as a model. When Pueblo hits that mark then our size will be a asset as it will allow Pueblo to have plenty of room for a historic area, the Riverwalk, baseball stadium and a business area with high rises. Also with Pueblo being in the plains we can grow in a circle so downtown will always be in the geographic center so people will be more likely to want to go there and spend money on it.

I was thinking on my drive home about downtown's and another factor I consider is how much of a geographic area a cities downtown controls.

For example the downtown's of Denver, Colorado Springs and Pueblo command a larger regions then do the downtown's of Fort Collins, Boulder, Loveland and Greeley.

If you brake it down further the Colorado Springs downtown is limited by the fact the city can not grow west so as the city grows east the downtown will be less and less in the geographic center of the city. Also, the trade area for Colorado Springs is only El Paso and Teller counties.

That leaves the downtown's of Denver and Pueblo. I think that is why you see a lot of similarities between the two. Both are in the geographic center of the metro area, both have large geographic trade areas and finally both cities spend money to improve their downtown's. That is another reason I believe Pueblo will have the second best downtown in the state.

That being said, I always leave out Grand Junction. That is because although I have been there I know little about it. I don't see why they cant have a great downtown but every time I bring it up everyone says no they wont. So for the most part I just talk about front range cities.

Any thoughts? Does any of this matter or am I reaching?

[acw007]

I just don't understand your train of thought. You like to say Pueblo has the best downtown or will, but you're pretty far behind when you compare your downtown to the others in the state. I do agree with allot of what CS_Urbanist said because Boulder and Fort Collins are the same kind of city and have similar downtowns. I'd encourage you to visit either city any day of the week and see the level of activity. The streets are alive with people, the smell of food, and the sound of music, not just during a once a year chili cook off like in Pueblo. Pueblo just doesn't offer all the dinning, entertaining, retail, and living opportunities that we do. Our downtowns are already great and constantly improving. Sure Pueblo has a pretty sidewalk around a glorified pond, but the rest of downtown Pueblo isn’t that great.

[Eeyore]

I just don't understand your train of thought. You like to say Pueblo has the best downtown or will, but you're pretty far behind when you compare your downtown to the others in the state. I do agree with allot of what CS_Urbanist said because Boulder and Fort Collins are the same kind of city and have similar downtowns. I'd encourage you to visit either city any day of the week and see the level of activity. The streets are alive with people, the smell of food, and the sound of music, not just during a once a year chili cook off like in Pueblo. Pueblo just doesn't offer all the dinning, entertaining, retail, and living opportunities that we do. Our downtowns are already great and constantly improving. Sure Pueblo has a pretty sidewalk around a glorified pond, but the rest of downtown Pueblo isn’t that great.

I guess that is part of our difference, we have different ways to define a successful downtown.

Since I am not a true urbanist I don't mind parking garages and I would rather have a few sky scrapers then all the buildings at 6 stories. My favorite part of downtown Denver is where the sky scrapers are as I love to drive around there and look up and most importantly I like how you can see it from all over the metro area. I have never been a fan of vendors, the only time I eat at one is during a fair.

That being said Pueblo has more going on in our downtown then you guys realize simply because none of us bloged on here last summer and since I tend to only like big events that is usually what I focus on. Pueblo has festival Fridays outside the art center where there is a live band for like 4 weekends and Pueblo has the B street bash where they actually close down B street for a month straight on Fridays and have live music and beer. There is a big July 4 concert and firework show on the Riverwalk that gets tens of thousands of people. There are many more smaller events that go on, in fact it seems like in the summer there is always something going on in downtown.

I think if anything Fort Collins will be a better downtown then Boulder, the only thing it is known for is the university thus it is known only has a college downtown. That kind of puts it in a box, plus they are in the shadow of downtown Denver. Sure that means on the surface downtown Boulder looks like it has more going on as most of the students from CU go there, that is a big pool. However, in 30 years I don't see CU or Boulder growing much while Pueblo and Fort Collins will. As soon as you get more people in our region you will see more people and buildings in our downtown's. The biggest issue with downtown Fort Collins is that you guys do compete with Loveland and Greeley. Imagine if there was only one town up there but with the same population how big would the downtown be? Also, downtown Fort Collins will never be in the geographic center of the city.

[Eeyore]

BTW I asked the administrator if this thread could be made into a sticky and it was done. I want to say thank you in public, that was very nice!

[Eeyore]

Ok I am board so I was thinking of this. We need a Dynasty 2 but this time in Pueblo! Instead of oil it can be alternative energy!


The link so you can see the credits of the old show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFWB8lFYDPI

[urbanboy]

Why is this thread a Sticky?

[Eeyore]

Why is this thread a Sticky?

Because this thread represents Colorado's main cities from Pueblo to Colorado Springs to Fort Collins and Boulder.

[urbanboy]

:previous:
But why is it a sticky?

[Eeyore]

So it can be easily found on the main mountain west page.

[acw007]

High traffic volume and we'd rather have one main thread rather than dozens of threads for every city and town like they have for Utah. :)

[Eeyore]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp25/josseppie/pedco.jpg


This is a interesting story about PEDCo and how they are marketing Pueblo.

A higher-profile PEDCo springs out of the chute
The new-look Pueblo Economic Development Corp. continues to take the bull by the horns.

After vowing a more assertive approach, PEDCo - spurred on by Pueblo City Council - continues to make changes in a bid to strengthen local job-creation efforts.

The approach is widely credited for Pueblo's landing of a 500-worker Vestas Wind Towers plant in which PEDCo aided talks that led to the creation of a new industrial park on the city's South Side.

Recent years also saw PEDCo push hard to help craft deals for Professional Bull Riders and the Doss Aviation training school for future U.S. Air Force pilots, among other businesses.

Most recently, and on a smaller scale, the approach led PEDCo to seize on Pueblo's upcoming Wild Wild West Fest to launch a rare promotional campaign of its own: "Bullish on Pueblo." With a nod to the Professional Bull Riders - whose chief executive, Randy Bernard, is credited with the idea - the job-creation agency hopes the campaign makes a big showing inside and outside Pueblo.

The centerpiece is a fundraiser featuring 30 custom-painted steel bull heads that PEDCo and the PBR-organized Wild Wild West Fest will auction off.

The entries will be displayed across Pueblo, starting next week at The Pueblo Mall, and possibly on the PBR's Web site. Bids are by silent auction with daily updates at PEDCo's Web site www.pedco.org.

PEDCo and the area's other nonprofits that are helping in the festival will share the proceeds. PBR's goal with all of the Wild Wild West Fest activities is to raise money for local nonprofits.

Beyond raising money, the campaign will help spread PEDCo's message that, as its Web site proclaims, Pueblo is "the most pro-business climate you will find anywhere in the country," PEDCo leaders say.

Such a campaign is "not something we've done so much in the past, and I think it's a really good opportunity for us," said Andrew Lang, the member of the PEDCo board overseeing the promotion.

"It's a really good opportunity for us to be out in the community and playing a different role, and raising awareness," said Lang, a manager at Bassett Construction.

PEDCo is a membership-funded group that includes a volunteer board of directors - representing a cross section of the Pueblo community - and seven staff. Membership is open to the public.

In addition to job recruitment, the organization operates the Business and Technology Center business incubator in Downtown and also manages a number of properties used by business recruits.

The Bullish on Pueblo campaign comes as PEDCo welcomes its newest staff addition, Vice President Rich Werner, former associate director of the state's Small Business Development Center in Denver.

Werner, 40, said he accepted the PEDCo post in part for family reasons.

His wife, the former Christina Sanchez, is a Pueblo native and the pair often talked about relocating to Pueblo to raise a family, he said. They are the parents of a 16-month-old daughter, Holly.

The couple originally met while working in Washington, D.C., said Werner, who grew up outside New York City and received his bachelor's degree at American University in Washington.

The PEDCo job also appealed to him as a career economic development specialist, said Werner, a certified economic development finance professional and expert on small business financial assistance.

He's followed PEDCo's work for years, Werner said. The group, along with Pueblo as a whole, "is just poised for tremendous success," even in the face of the current recession, Werner said.

"When so many people are facing uncertainty, and unemployment is skyrocketing, the work that PEDCo does is now more important than ever," Werner said.

"It was a risk to leave a stable job with the government, but one thing that I have seen with successful economic development programs is that it boils down to one common denominator: leadership.

"Communities that have good public and private leadership are those

communities that succeed in both good and troubling times."

Werner's hiring complements PEDCo's selection last year of a new president, Dan Centa, a somewhat nontraditional choice who was retiring as the city of Pueblo's public works director.

Centa's hiring was done in part to address concerns that the biggest challenge to Pueblo's job creation wasn't finding prospects, but addressing their infrastructure needs, PEDCo board members said.

Centa and Werner "bring an incredible amount of experience and talent to the organization and we are very fortunate to have them leading the charge," said PEDCo Chairwoman Judy Fonda of Premier Mortgage.

"Poor economic climates can also create many opportunities and, with the addition of these two gentlemen, we are now prepared to take advantage of those opportunities," Fonda said.

Six months into the post, Centa, who as city public works director aided in the Vestas projects, says the PEDCo board's decision to shift more focus to infrastructure readiness is right on the mark.

"There has not been one week where we sit in the office wondering how we're going to attract companies. We've been overwhelmed with proposals from companies courting us," Centa said.

The challenge is addressing existing limits on Pueblo's infrastructure - in such areas as roads, rail, energy needs, water delivery and telecommunications - to meet the prospects' needs, Centa said.

Along with labor costs, infrastructure needs to figure into a company's overall "cost of doing business" that ranks as a major factor that determines where they choose to locate, Centa said.

"Every one of these elements affect the bottom line. . . . If any of these fall out of a company's parameters it disqualifies us," Centa said.

The challenges can be addressed if the public will exists, as the Vestas deal showed, Centa said.

Going forward, PEDCo hopes to see local governments team with utilities, railroad companies and others to pursue a study of Pueblo's overall infrastructure limits and opportunities, Centa said.

The review would target lesser-studied areas such as utilities and rail, Centa said. The report would compliment the many studies done on public sector issues such as roads and zoning, Centa said.

Another novel venture for Pueblo and PEDCo came just last month: A deal for a 100-job expansion by the Pueblo-based The Water Company.

The company is ramping up its global marketing of a water filtration device designed by former Pueblo Board of Water Works technician Bryan Elson.

It's been rare for Pueblo to be presented a job-growth opportunity from one of its homegrown companies. Usually the city has had to rely on the recruitment of outside companies.

PEDCo sprung into action once more.

[acw007]

Cool... We have a similar program here to support "The Roundup at The Fort" which is a PRCA qualifier. Our program uses 10ft horses that local artist paint.
It's nice seeing them located all over the city, but I swear every city does some benefit like this now a days. I know in Cheyenne they paint cowboy boots and in Loveland they pain these ugly heart things. Here's what some of the horses look like:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m165/sliderrider/rossandbuster.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/acwilson007/horse2.jpg
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg152/acwilson007/paintedhorse.jpg

[Eeyore]

That is very nice and in a way I am glad to see the whole region do it. There was a time we ran from our heritage I think we should embrace it. If we don't that just makes us another urban corridor found anywhere in the country.

[Eeyore]

I hate to bring this up again as I know we went down this road before but I wonder if we should put our heads together and come up with a more inclusive name for the cities that are represented here, Pueblo, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins and Boulder. Especially since this thread is now a sticky and will be seen by more people. Any thoughts on this?

[acw007]

I was thinking the same thing... probably something along the lines of the frontrange development thread or something like that.

[Eeyore]

Maybe something like the Colorado outside Denver thread. I know being negative like that in a title is kind of lame but personally I don't want to have to go through Denver posts to see posts about our cities and I would not mind if people from places outside the front range post, like Grand Junction or even mountain towns.

Again I think Boulder is ok as I bet they feel the same way I do about going through Denver posts just to see Boulder pics. Altough I think it should be limited to Boulder and not places like Flatiron Crossing and interlocken as I consider that more metro Denver.

[Eeyore]

This is a good look at Pueblo's past!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znn8svOotI0

The Mafia was big in Pueblo, in fact in the United States the big 3 cities for it were NYC, Chicago and Pueblo. In the movie the Godfather there is a scene where they had a meeting with all the mafia bosses, in the real one people from Pueblo attended it.

There is one story I know of that is funny. On "goat" hill there was a gun fight between two mafia gangs. One of them ran out of bullets so they both stopped till they could go in the city and buy more bullets then they continued fighting.

[Eeyore]

How about:

Colorado discussion thread (Pueblo, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Boulder)

That way if people are looking for a specific city they will see it in the title.

Or this:

Colorado discussion thread (Metropolitan Pueblo including Colorado Springs, Fort Collins and Boulder)

LOL just joking you guys!!!!!!!!!!!

Just wanted to say that the first one is not a joke.....

[Eeyore]

This was in the Colorado Springs Business Journal:


More and more, I am thinking about re-opening the Pueblo Business Journal and moving to Pueblo. They understand economic development.

Pueblo has decided that they have enough call centers, and that they won’t accept any more of this type of business, according to one business leader from Pueblo. On Wednesday, Pueblo County Commissioners approved submission of a “unique, private, exclusive RFP to Helios Energy Partners LLC out of Denver,” said Greg Severance, director of Public Works for Pueblo County.

Yeah, probably nothing really, maybe another River Walk or conference center.

How about a 2,200 acre, 200-megawatt solar array?

The idea here is that Helios will build the facility and then sell the energy to utilities, industrial customers and/or government installations. The project is slated as a land re-use plan for the Pueblo Depot, the old Army base that was closed as part of the base realignment and closure process.

The proposed project’s initial cost is estimated at $900 million. How many jobs and how much economic impact will it have on Pueblo County? Twenty-two hundred acres on the tax roll, sharing a portion of the power purchase agreement, tourism to see the largest solar project in the world, not to mention the construction and primary jobs associated with a project of this size.

Sadly, the jobs and the economic impact of the Pueblo Depot energy facility is not the point of this column.

Pueblo is, in a lot of ways, a competitor with the Springs for jobs. Besides a handful of Southern Delivery System dissenters in Pueblo, we are friends with our neighbors to the south. More and more, I am becoming envious of their ability to get things accomplished and their vision to grow their quality of life.

Pueblo has dedicated resources for economic development. We talk about it, and Pueblo actually gets it done.

1A nixed, now what?
1A did not pass. If it had, it would have provided an estimated measly annual $3.2 million to help us compete in a difficult economic development environment.

Why do I call it measly?

The City of Pueblo’s funded projects for 2009 from its voter-approved, half-cent sales tax for 19 projects is $17.8 million, yeah that’s in millions, and in one year.

The largest funded project is $11.8 million for the Vesta’s Towers America project - a company we should have been more competitive in trying to bring to our city.

What is Colorado Springs’ economic development budget? It’s $800,000, and that is just for city staff and some program support.

Why is it that the folks in Pueblo get this economic development thing and we are just voting down items that would benefit us now and our children for years to come?

Some say a lack of vision from the government sector, and I can’t disagree.

We can just accept that we will never have the big-picture vision for our community, enjoy our views and idle away the days, weeks, months and years until we become a community of military bases, retired military and some nonprofits. Or we can keep striving to make a difference, to grow our economic base, recruit some national for-profit headquarters and become a thriving, bustling economic center.

I, for one, will keep striving.

[The Dirt]

How about "Colorado Outer Regions" or some derivative of?

It would include CS, Pueblo, Ft.Collins, and Boulder. However, if we ever get any posters from Greeley, Loveland, or Grand Junction this would be the place for them. Cheyenne would also make sense to be included.

How about we get a decent list of possible thread names and start a poll?

[Eeyore]

Good idea on the poll. Looks like we have 3 ideas now.

1. Front Range Development Thread

2. Colorado discussion thread (Pueblo, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Boulder)
(I like the idea of having the cities name in the thread title that way people know by looking at it what cities are in it.)

3. "Colorado Outer Regions"


This is a great start!

[wong21fr]

Front Range Development Thread sounds the best to me. I know it excludes the Western Slope but we can tackle that issue if a poster really starts to provide information on that region.

[Eeyore]

Front Range Development Thread sounds the best to me. I know it excludes the Western Slope but we can tackle that issue if a poster really starts to provide information on that region.

How about combining one and two like this:

Front Range Development Thread (Pueblo, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Boulder)

[Fir Na Tine 343]

How about combining one and two like this:

Front Range Development Thread (Pueblo, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, Boulder)


More like this :-)

Front Range Development Thread (Colorado Springs, Pueblo, Fort Collins, Boulder