[mSeattle]

1200 Madison St
Council Land Use Action to Contract Rezone a 7,122 sq. ft. portion of property from HR to NC3 160' to allow a 13-story, 40-unit apartment and medical services office building with 3,928 sq. ft. of retail and 4,797 sq. ft. customer service office (bank) at ground level. Parking for 403 vehicles will be located in below-grade garage.

http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/luib/3004404.jpg

[mSeattle]

I meant to make is "First Hill Projects & Pictures"

[mhays]

1200 Madison is basically Phase II of 8th & Madison a few blocks away. Similar mix of uses by the same developer.

[Seasun]

Speaking of First Hill...the site mentioned above is at the north edge of the Swedish Hospital campus - at the south edge of the campus demolition is just getting going for the new Orthopedic building. For info check out http://www.swedish.org/body.cfm?id=1910&oTopID=23 which also includes a camera link for the construction cam junkies out there. http://sellen.oxblue.com/soi/

[James Bond Agent 007]

Thread title edited per request.

[mSeattle]

Thread title edited per request.

Thanks 007!

1200 Madison is basically Phase II of 8th & Madison a few blocks away. Similar mix of uses by the same developer.

Speaking of M Street (8th & Madison) I don't like the look so much at the top. Maybe they haven't unveiled all the exterior parts. Maybe it'll grow on me.

[Capitol Hill]

Hey, Seasun, did you see the 3-D modelling of the construction? Somebody either had some time on their hands, or that was needed to show somebody something specific. I don't know why, it's a pretty straight forward project, but it is interesting to watch.

[mSeattle]

It's a box.

[Seasun]

Hey, Seasun, did you see the 3-D modelling of the construction? Somebody either had some time on their hands, or that was needed to show somebody something specific. I don't know why, it's a pretty straight forward project, but it is interesting to watch.
Yes - I saw the modeling. Since I'm in the construction biz and like 3d modeling I find it very useful to model the construction sequence for many reasons. Even if the building geometry is relatively simple some of the reasons "4d modeling" is so useful are:

demonstrating to the customer you know the job and how you would build it (often in the marketing phase)
coordinating temporary facilities like cranes and manlifts that go through the building - sometimes it's hard to see what systems or spaces they affect if you're just looking at plan views.
bringing a standard CPM bar chart type schedule to life - many owners and architects (probably some contractors) don't understand or would take days to understand the logic in a CPM schedule and even then the logic could be wrong. Schedule simulation models really help show when an air handler (for example) is hanging in space without the supporting structure or the opposite problem - a large air handler just appears in a room after the room is closed in - faulty logic.
besides the time aspect of things mentioned above - when the contractor models the building we catch lots of conflicts in the design. It doesn't take a very complex project to have plenty of conflicts that slow down the construction process.
In summary, if the 4d simulations make the construction process more efficient and the contractor more competitive it really doesn't matter so much how curvy or large the building is - money, time and quality aspects of the project are improved.

[mhays]

You beat me to it Seasun!

[Capitol Hill]

Hey, thank you for explaining that to me. Now I'm intrigued to see the modelling of other large projects computer modelling, if they exist.

[mSeattle]

Walked by the site of the 23-level proposal at Boylston and Union and saw that demolition of the old structure has started. Don't know if this means the new tower is a go.

[mhays]

Boylston & Union? Closest tower proposal I'm aware of is Boylston & Seneca. Is that what you're thinking? Boylston & Union doesn't see to have an appropriate developable site anyway.

[mSeattle]

Ok, must be Seneca. I don't remember the names of streets well in that area.

[Capitol Hill]

Finally started demolition, huh? It seems like that site has been fenced off for more than a year. Any renderings?

[mSeattle]

Found a web page for First Hill community/development information. I think it's the First Hill Improvement Association - http://www.firsthill.org/

Also, with a name I was able to find this rendering of the 23-level tower!

Skygarden
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2758/skygarden01bv8.jpg
http://www.aiaseattle.org/2005HA/submittals/n_residential_1.htm

[James Bond Agent 007]

^
Wow, looks great! I'll add it to the Seattle Compilation thread!

[mhays]

Maybe it's really starting, maybe it's not, but it's exciting to think about. I like the design.

[mSeattle]

Yea I like the design too. It has the 3 C's = Colors, curves, and crown.

[blackc5]

Great find, I really like the look of that building also. Nice transitions.

[northface]

HEYYY...haha they have that building on display in the colman building along tthe sidewalk that leads to underneath the viaduct....go check it out! its cool! Lots of plants all over it!

[Capitol Hill]

I just went for a walk last weekend by there. Demolition work has begun.

[mSeattle]

Here's a nice aerial of "M Street" from the DJC web site.

Opus sells 8th & Madison complex before it's done
http://www.djc.com/news/re/11184725.html

http://www.djc.com/stories/images/20061211/MStreet%20_web.jpg
Competition for properties has increased in the past few years, prompting some investors to buy ASAP.

[Seasun]

I walked around First Hill yesterday. The new Horizon House tower is getting its skin.

There's a big aerial truss recently installed at Harborview hospital - renderings show this truss partially exposed in the final building. It seems to support several floors below the truss - it should be cool to see how floors are hung off this truss. The big Harborview excavation is getting restarted since I think the county council agreed to a new funding scheme. Can someone explain what's up with the crane bases in the hole? One was cast into the footings a while ago but you can see in the photo that there's another one getting ready to be cast in somewhere on the site. Will there be two cranes or maybe they got crane cold feet and wanted to be sure the tower base section was completely up to spec?

Horizon House:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/horizonhouse.jpg

Harborview Hospital
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/harborv.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/truss.jpg

Harborview excavation on north side of James Street
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/harborview.jpg

[PacificNW]

That condo project on Madison (just east of I-5) is butt ugly. The side facing away from downtown Seattle has to have the worst designed decks I have ever seen on a new project. They look like concrete boxes attached. The side facing downtown is not bad.

It has been great being back in Seattle visiting friends and seeing my doctor. I like the new apartment/U.S. Bank complex on Broadway. It it is a nice addition to the neighborhood.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Great pics. Thanks Seasun!

[jackieleefan]

I have another project for first hill if you havent already seen it. It is called 7th and Madison and it is by Opus. It is for the block between M street and I-5.
http://www.7thandmadison.com/scrollbartest/additional_samples/288_3869-078_04.pdf

[mhays]

Your picture is an "X". But I bet it's the image that was on a DJC special section cover last week.

[jackieleefan]

That is true. I don't know how to add pictures so that's the best I could do. Another addition nonetheless.

[mSeattle]

Demolition at the Skygarden site Nov-Dec'06
http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/_B190602_600.JPG

http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/PC102211_600.JPG

Harborview cranes
http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/_1114243_600.JPG

Proposal - 13 floors
http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/_C031854_600.JPG

[mhays]

That last pic captures two of the nicest looking apartment buildings in Seattle.

[mSeattle]

I thought those were condos. They're old and nice though.

[Capitol Hill]

They are condos, and if I remember correctly, one penthouse was on the market about 3 years ago for north of a million dollars. I saw the pictures, and it looked like one of those units that you see in Architectural Digest of Central Park East condominiums. It was so exquisite, without looking like a museum piece. I think those two building contain a lot of wealth.

[mhays]

By "apartments" I wasn't differentiating between rentals and condos.

One building is large units (the east one) and the other is smaller ones (west), but still high-end. My old boss owns a unit in the one with smaller units, though I haven't been there. I'm sure their place will appear in a magazine at some point since their places always do.

[Seasun]

My great grandfather lived in one of those two buildings before he passed away in mid-1960s (I forget which of the buildings). It would have been cool to see how it looked. Nearby these buildings are a couple of the most exclusive clubs in Seattle - Sunset Club for ladies and University Club for gents - don't bother applying - they're invitation only. You might have walked by the U Club a hundred times (right next to McDonalds) and wondered what the heck is that house still doing on Madison? When you walk past the old Stimson Green(?) mansion and other buildings up there you get a sense of what older Seattle was like.

[mhays]

Or you can simply work for the right contractor. Not that I've been in either club!

[Seattleguy]

Call me nostalgic, but I really, really love the style of those old high rise apartment buildings on First Hill and wonder why they don't try to build retro high rise residential anymore. Am I the only person who likes more traditional interiors and doesn't like the thought of having only walls of glass around me? You see a lot of retro Craftsman Style housing in Seattle, but why doesn't anyone see the potential market in high rises for something like those great classics around Central Park in NYC. I love the photos in AD of condos with cove moldings, real drapes, antiques and city views out the windows. There is a new building technique which is being used on the new Harborview extension which uses very thin brick in precast pieces which would reduce the cost of such an enterprise. Why does one have to buy in an old building to get a traditional look?

[mhays]

I agree completely!

[mSeattle]

Hey, they built that retro building next to Smith Tower. They could do it elsewhere in the city.

[Hoodrat]

I like that bldg. And it's for moderate income folks. Couldn't that sort of architechtural detailing work for a more expensive bldg?

[mSeattle]

I expect that it could unless all that brick is expensive. Might be that it would have to be a developer with a big building like that. Maybe there are some subsidies involved with the retro building near Smith because of the future tenants.

[mSeattle]

I walked by M Street yesterday and decided that I no longer think it looks good. It's good filler but I don't care for the look of it. The windows should have had some sort of green/blue color, not clear. And all the exposed concrete is ugly. Oh well, maybe that reflective building proposed just west of it will cover it some; or will that one be southwest?

[mhays]

Around here, exposed concrete has worked aesthetically on about two Downtown buildings total -- Continental Place and that condo above the wine shop at the north end of the Market. Maybe I'm spacing something, but I can't think of another success.

[Hoodrat]

:previous:

agreed.

The whole exposed concrete motif in Seattle has really run out of gas. I like the two exceptions you cited, but there are sooo many cheap-ass tacky versions of gray cement that it's gone several steps north of vulgar.

[Seasun]

I'm walking by M Street about twice a day - not a bad design but I watched some really tall curved precast concrete panels being set recently along the west side of the building. Whenever I see a few random curves thrown into an otherwise rectangular building for no apparent reason I tend not to like it. Also the large boxy trellis structure over the top of the building is kind of a weak mechanical screen or whatever it is.

The elements mentioned above remind me of one of the common critique comments from one of my architecture professors (Stanley Saitowitz) that I think of all the time: He used the word "willful" to describe something the student was just "willing" onto the project and not letting the building's logic or program inform a design move. He also used lots of food analogies that were pretty hilarious. From dictionary.com:

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source

Main Entry: will·ful
Variant: or wil·ful /'wil-f&l/
Function: adjective
: not accidental : done deliberately or knowingly and often in conscious violation or disregard of the law, duty, or the rights of others <willful injury> <a willful violation of a court order> —will·ful·ly adverb —will·ful·ness noun

[mSeattle]

Some First Hill updated photos

Horizon House II
http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/_1033815_500.jpg
http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/_2056431_500sharp.jpg

FH Harborview
http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/PC172453ca_500.jpg

FH Swedish
http://www.stringmages.com/skyscraperpage/firsthill/PC172432_500.jpg

[mSeattle]

The crane for the Swedish Hosp. expansion is up. And Harborview added a third crane on its site.

[hi123]

What will fh swedish and harborview look like?

[mSeattle]

^Harborview's two new buildings will be pretty much the color of the existing buildings, 9 floors.

I forget what Swedish expansion is supposed to look like.

[mhays]

^Harborview's two new buildings will be pretty much the color of the existing buildings, 9 floors.


The full-block building will be 14 floors. Basically a slab with a full-block pedestal.

[mSeattle]

^Thanks for the correction. 14 floors is better than 9.

[Bear]

Call me nostalgic, but I really, really love the style of those old high rise apartment buildings on First Hill and wonder why they don't try to build retro high rise residential anymore. Am I the only person who likes more traditional interiors and doesn't like the thought of having only walls of glass around me? You see a lot of retro Craftsman Style housing in Seattle, but why doesn't anyone see the potential market in high rises for something like those great classics around Central Park in NYC. I love the photos in AD of condos with cove moldings, real drapes, antiques and city views out the windows. There is a new building technique which is being used on the new Harborview extension which uses very thin brick in precast pieces which would reduce the cost of such an enterprise. Why does one have to buy in an old building to get a traditional look?

$$$$ - if someone takes a chance, and builds one of these modern retro units gets built, without looking too "theme park" or faux Vegas, and it is successful, than others would build. However though these older buildings look great from the outside, the inside views and spaciousness tend to suffer.

[SeattleBoy]

The new Swedish Building will be all for orthopedics and will only 7 stories. Link below:

http://www.swedish.org/body.cfm?id=28&action=detail&ref=417

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

new renderings for 7th and madison- 9 story mid rise office tower with 3 levels of below grade parking, completion expected to be summer of 08
built by Opus NW

new renderings-http://www.7thandmadison.com/renderings.htm
-does anyone know if skyline first hill is still doing site prep or are they under construction?

[Seasun]

new renderings for 7th and madison- 9 story mid rise office tower with 3 levels of below grade parking, completion expected to be summer of 08
built by Opus NW

new renderings-http://www.7thandmadison.com/renderings.htm
-does anyone know if skyline first hill is still doing site prep or are they under construction?

Recently I took a look at the rendering posted on the existing building that will be torn down. There's a very similar rendering at the website above (thanks for posting it). They're nice renderings but they should be embarassed by screwing up the reflection of buildings across the freeway. I don't expect the reflection to be perfect but it should make some basic sense - they didn't flip the photo they took! The 3rd image is the worst - One Union Square is south of Madison Street?! I think I saw a similar image some time ago and it confused because of the reflection - I couldn't understand where the site could be and produce that reflection. Anyway - I'll end rant now - thanks for letting me vent.

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

^ in my opion they shouldn't of even done reflections in the rendering

[herb]

^That building looks very familiar. I wish I could say I'm excited for that to be built.

[herb]

...does anyone know if skyline first hill is still doing site prep or are they under construction?

I walked by the other day and they were doing a lot of digging. Looks like they may have started.

[mSeattle]

I'm happy they tried to show reflection on that part of the building. The building has slightly more redeaming factors than the new King Co. building.

[Seasun]

I walked by the other day and they were doing a lot of digging. Looks like they may have started.

They're definitely underway at Skyline. Did a couple of web searches to see what's on-line about Skyline.
http://www.skylineatfirsthill.com/home/default.asp

Then I came across the shoring contractor's website. Kind of odd that they would post dollar values of private projects. Public projects - sure, post away since it's public info but private projects? :koko:
Turn your audio up (especially if you're in an office :) ) before clicking:
http://www.condonjohnson.com/

You'll see a 505 1st Ave project listed that appears to actually be 505 1st Ave South discussed in this thread:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=128836&highlight=starbucks+seattle
Says the project will start in July '07.

[NW Mike]

Some work planned for Seattle University Sports Center by Olson Sundberg Kundig Allen

http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/14592/2005792451297722285_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005792451297722285)
http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/12770/2005765693724996390_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005765693724996390)

[Skian]

What are they doing to Connelly Center.
I like the plain massive stucture that is now.

When I went there, it was so drab that most students wouldnt even enter, so those that did had free reign of a giant facility!

[Seasun]

I see that the US Bank branch has just moved into their new office at Madison at Boren and their old building is empty. Anyone have an update on what's happening at their old funky white brick arched building across from McDonalds?

[mhays]

It's around 12 stories. Mostly medical offices, plus about 40 units of housing I think. Opus.

[Seasun]

Skyline is digging (photo from this afternoon)). M Street grocery store looks to be getting close to opening.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/skyline.jpg

[Seasun]

I was driving on Madison on Saturday and noticed demolition of an old brick apartment building that was across the street from the M Street Grocery on 8th Ave. just north of Marion.

[mhays]

Sounds like Harbor is getting ready to start their project. This coincides with the "Spring start" mentioned on their website. Seven stories, 81 units, woodframe.

I don't know if this applies to Landes, but Harbor is a big proponent of mid-priced housing that makes use of the lower parking requirements. In other words they're building exactly what Seattle needs.

http://harborproperties.com/development1/current.asp

The depressing one on this list is conversion of the existing AYH youth hostel into housing. It'll make great housing, but that youth hostel is (was?) a huge asset. Youth hostels bring/help waves of backpackers, a group that I want more of around here.

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

Yeah for the West Seattle project that Harbor is building and the one they are building in first hill looks pretty good i think this one will build faster than the builders say it will

[SeattleHusky82]

Is the M Street project completed yet?

[Vashon118]

Is the M Street project completed yet?

From what I could tell when I went by there this morning, it looked like it is complete (the M Street Grocery store is open).

[Seasun]

I went into the M Street grocery yesterday and again today. Looks they're attracting some customers. They're cooking up a storm in the deli area. A couple of different hot sandwiches were cut up into bite-sized samples. It's a compact store but they're crammed a lot in. I asked if the store was part of any chain and was told that it's completely independent. The owner has dabbled in the grocery biz previously but this is his only store currently. What a competitive and high-overhead business to be in! Try out this place and hopefully it stays in business for a while. Now we just need a decent market in Pioneer Square/S. downtown. (Uwajamaya is good but a little out of the way for me.)

[mhays]

I think the M-Street Grocery will do well. The near side of First Hill was extremely underserved. The barriers to entry are significant for any other stores thinking of moving in.

It's hard to justify a store near the Market -- really, night is the part that's underserved around there, especially after 8:00 when Louie's on Pike Place closes. Still, we've heard rumors of a boutique place in Hotel 1.

As for smaller stores, the Cobb will open sometime this year with a basement market. It's the same owner as the current market on Harbor Steps. So I'd expect it to be a lot better than a corner store, but both are only a few thousand square feet, compared to 11,000 sf for M-Street, 47,000 sf for Whole Foods on Westlake, and probably 30,000 sf for the new Safeway on LQA.

The location that's easiest to justify for a full-size supermarket is right near where I live -- the NW corner of Belltown. It has a large resident population and a significant daytime population too, as well as being a stopping point for driving commuters to wait out rush hour. It's far from the Market, Whole Foods, and the stores on LQA. I'm thinking the Seattle Lighting / church block, which is very underused.

In the late 1990s, the Ellington Condominiums and next-door lowrise apartment were one proposed project, and the concept called for a supermarket. They simply didn't sign one, probably failing to attract one to a neighborhood that was mostly just a vision back then -- basically subtract all but two of the 12-story condo buildings from what you see now. Anyway, someone was thinking along those lines even then. Today it's a slam-dunk, but you'd need a full block for an efficient layout, i.e. one that's better than Safeway's on LQA.

[Vashon118]

Across the street from M Street Seattle (05/24/07):

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4828/acrossthestreetfrommstrns1.jpg

(Close to) same view (06/20/06):

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9369/acrossthestreetfrommstrqh2.jpg

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

^ wut building are they putting in up there?

[mhays]

Residential project around 7 stories. Harbor Properties is developer. Just got building permit, so it looks like a real start. Soon at least. Probably.

[Seasun]

A tower crane base was set today for Skyline. Looks like concrete will be cast around the base in the next week or two. (I'd post a photo but 'da Bucket isn't working for me right now.)

The Harborview bridge to the new building has now been clad with glass. Pretty darn boring/gray glass! (OK, now I really gotta get a photo of that and post it since I'm putting it down!)

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

^^^ YES please post one. And I thought that Harborview bridge was going to be cool.

[Seasun]

Skyline shots from Thursday.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/skyline1.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/skyline2.jpg

Harborview bridge shot from yesterday.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h17/seasun_01/skybridge.jpg
(standing in the middle of the street for the composition - risking it all for SS_)

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

(standing in the middle of the street for the composition - risking it all for SS_)

^^^
that's dedication.:tup:

-The harborview glass isn't as bad as I thought.
- It's good to Skyline moving along:yes:

[destroybananas]

Awesome shot seasun!

[Seasun]

Skyline tower crane went up today. Base section for another crane for the same project is also being prepared for concrete.

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

^^^

Is the crane tall???

-That new Swedish Hospital Addition is rising up fast.

[destroybananas]

Wait...which one is the skyline

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

^^^^

Ya know the 27 story retirement community

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b142/Dancer-2/Seattle031.jpg


BTW, does anyone know the height limits on around First Hill?

[destroybananas]

^oh right...I remember now. How could I have forgotten something like that... :P

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

-So does anybody know the height limits on First Hill?????

[mhays]

It's complicated. Look at the city zoning maps. They're online.

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

- Do you think we could still get 250-300 footer up there???

[seaskyfan]

Looks like the max is 240. The HR zone allows a limit of 160' or up to 240' under some conditions (housing bonus with a special exception, etc.). You can also see some areas with the Major Institution Overlay and an allowed height of 240'.

Here's the map:

http://clerk.ci.seattle.wa.us/public/zoningmaps/zmap110.htm

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

^^^^


Thanks for the map Seaskyfan. I hope we can get more 240 footers up there.

[Symi81]

Constructing a building of that height and scale that close to St James Cathedral is totally unacceptable. It is completely out of scale with the street scape and scale of the neighborhood.

[destroybananas]

blah blah blah I disagree

[seaskyfan]

Constructing a building of that height and scale that close to St James Cathedral is totally unacceptable. It is completely out of scale with the street scape and scale of the neighborhood.

The idea is that the 160-240' residential towers would become the new scale of the neighborhood.

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

Originally Posted by Symi81
Constructing a building of that height and scale that close to St James Cathedral is totally unacceptable. It is completely out of scale with the street scape and scale of the neighborhood.

Whatever, it's happening so deal with it. And at least the tower looks good.

[mhays]

Symi81, I think you'll be alone on that one, on this board!

Although it's the Presbyterians building the tower, so maybe you're on to something!

First Hill is one of the few places where the community leadership's and my opinions coincide: let's densify the hell out of First Hill.

St. James is great architecture, but the thought of making a whole neighborhood beholden to one building takes be aback so much I'm having a hard time even imagining it. We should let First Hill be all it can be.

If your reasons are religious in nature, well, I hope you have the same standards for every other belief system, from Wicca to Buddhism.

[seapug]

symi, i use to live up there. it won't be that much out of scale there's a lot of buildings in the 13-22 floor range so it'll only be like 50' taller then the current tallests. it's an urban highrise resdidential area so yeah expect em to build highrises there

[destroybananas]

Ever since I visited New York City I realized how old buildings and new architecture can complement each other very well and I loved it.

[Symi81]

I'm well aware that First Hill, along with Capitol Hill, is Seattle's densest neighborhood. First Hill is also probably Seattle's original high rise neighborhood. I embrace most of the high rise residential towers already gracing First Hill. I love the urban feel of the neighborhood, and its proximity to downtown. While the institutional presence on First Hill is greater than I would like, they do provide a lot of jobs.

First Hill is also Seattle's original residential district and still contains a few historical gems, including St James Cathedral. I am of the opinion that a city's premier architectural masterpieces ought to have their sightliness preserved to whatever extent is reasonable for perpetuity. The proposed project's proximity to St. James makes it unique compared to other high rises on First Hill - thats where my concern stems from. Peace.

[NW Mike]

The idea is that the 160-240' residential towers would become the new scale of the neighborhood.

Nicely put...
The Skyline is great looking. Lets just hope it looks this good when they are done, and that some financial concerns do not change it.

[WESTSEATTLEGUY]

-I got a good look at Skyline's crane yesterday. Its long, and not that tall, but mostly really long.