[Giovoni]

Not to mention that advocating car usage:

2. advocates the funding of terrorism (arguably a form of treason)


I wish more people would say this more often...

[glowrock]

This is where someone tears off your mask and says, this isn't aaron!

Behold, Joe... For what is under the mask is, EGADS!, a transit-rider! Hahahahahaha

Aaron (Glowrock)

[joeindt]

I wish more people would say this more often...
Not to mention that advocating car usage:

2. advocates the funding of terrorism (arguably a form of treason)


Now, merry fucking christmas to you.

[bunt_q]

Behold, Joe... For what is under the mask is, EGADS!, a transit-rider! Hahahahahaha

Aaron (Glowrock)

glowtrain? glowrail? glowrex?

nah, doesn't work... back in the truck, aaron.

[Giovoni]

lol thanks!

[glowrock]

glowtrain? glowrail? glowrex?

nah, doesn't work... back in the truck, aaron.

Glowtrain's alright, glowrex sucks... Glowrail? Hmm, not bad, but not great, either! :D

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Cirrus]

Glowrider.

[Cirrus]

... Or we could just go back to the old standard: Glow*($%. :)

[wong21fr]

Glowtrack?

Glow-clackity-clack-clack?

[bunt_q]

Not to change the subject... but has anybody else noticed - RTD has reserved a rather interesting domain name (had a chat at lunch yesterday... good stuff):

Registrant: Make this info private
REGIONAL TRANSPORTATION DISTRICT
1900 31ST ST
DENVER, CO 80216-4909
US

Domain Name: NEXTRACKS.COM

Administrative Contact , Technical Contact :
REGIONAL TRANSPORTATION DISTRICT
pat.chandler@rtd-denver.com
1900 31ST ST
DENVER, CO 80216-4909
US
Phone: 303 299 6201
Fax: 303 299 6191

Record expires on 02-Nov-2007
Record created on 02-Nov-2006
Database last updated on 02-Nov-2006

[Paulopolis]

Could this perhaps be the website for the future Northeast light rail line through Commerce City, Brighton, etc. or something else?

[bunt_q]

That and more... whatever Fastracks 2 happens to be. I made it very clear yesterday that I do not believe a second Fastracks can pass without some attention being paid to the City & County of Denver... another all-suburban system is not acceptable. (That come up in the context of my mentioning that I plan to run for the Board in 2012 - 2008 is too soon)

Other potential corridors: southeast/east... we need to penetrate through the city - somehow - to the e-470 corridor... we need to capture some of that booming residential growth to sustain downtown development long-term

[glowrock]

Interesting, Smithers... Veeerrryyyyy interesting...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Paulopolis]

Buntie, (May I call you "Buntie"?)

This is very interesting news. Thanks for sharing. Would Union Station also be the central hub for any NexTracks/FasTracks 2 project? Could this be why the light rail lines for FasTracks 1 aren't going to be buried?

Could a NexTracks/FasTracks 2 project be as ambitious as the "Beyond FasTracks" vision map/project created by several of the forumers?

I never knew I was so passionate about transit. Weird.

Paul

[J Church]

Not to change the subject... but has anybody else noticed - RTD has reserved a rather interesting domain name (had a chat at lunch yesterday... good stuff):

Registrant: Make this info private
REGIONAL TRANSPORTATION DISTRICT
1900 31ST ST
DENVER, CO 80216-4909
US

Domain Name: NEXTRACKS.COM

Administrative Contact , Technical Contact :
REGIONAL TRANSPORTATION DISTRICT
pat.chandler@rtd-denver.com
1900 31ST ST
DENVER, CO 80216-4909
US
Phone: 303 299 6201
Fax: 303 299 6191

Record expires on 02-Nov-2007
Record created on 02-Nov-2006
Database last updated on 02-Nov-2006

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. May I just say ... yes.

What's the sales tax rate in the City & County?

[Giovoni]

mmmmmmm transit mmmmmmmmmmm

not a little too soon though? won't it look odd planning somthing before really anything has gotten started on the first fastracks...

I must say I like the name nextracks though!

[joeindt]

hopefully, but couldn't it be just for ongoing construction updates like the trex website?

[Paulopolis]

I believe it is 7.8%. I'm not completely certain that's the correct number, though.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. May I just say ... yes.

What's the sales tax rate in the City & County?

[bunt_q]

hopefully, but couldn't it be just for ongoing construction updates like the trex website?

no, it's not...

the sales tax rate in denver? not sure actually... i think it was 7.6, but as of yesterday or the day before it looks like 1A may have passed... so something just higher than that. plenty of room, although we will have a *much needed* bond issue on next year's ballot (my reason for voting against 1A).

RTD may not have to increase it... we may only need authorization to extend it another 15-20 years and bond further improvements (obviously, we wouldn't see this on the ballot until fastracks is done, so 15 years from now).

edit: oh, and paul, i suppose i can let it slide that you callme "buntie" ;) i would guess that nextracks would be less ambitious, but not much less, because there just are not many (good) corridors left. i imagine we'd see extensions to fastracks corridors... but where can you go at a reasonable cost that we haven't already gone? something in denver, and obviously northeast... but after that? west is covered. south too (castle rock? was mentioned... bastards - as a board member, i would oppose that). north is pretty solid (farthernorth - pull weld county in). northwest is good. we have to go east

[Paulopolis]

Could a potential southeast corridor follow the proposed Cherry Creek line envisioned in "Beyond FasTracks" and then follow Leetsdale/Parker out to I-225 and then somehow out to E-470 to capture that booming southeast exurban growth?

Other potential corridors: southeast/east... we need to penetrate through the city - somehow - to the e-470 corridor... we need to capture some of that booming residential growth to sustain downtown development long-term

Sales tax rate before November's election was 7.6%.

http://www.denvergov.org/treasury/Reduction-Tax%20Previously%20Paid.htm

[joeindt]

no, it's not...


you seem awful sure of yourself.

but hmm, the city of denver is ripe for more taxation and better/more rapid inner city travel, thats for sure. I mean, I think most denverites will pay more taxes for these things.

[bunt_q]

you seem awful sure of yourself.


just based on where the tip to look at that domain name came from (and the context)...

dunno about the leetsdale/parker alignment... trex was supposed to go that direction way back in the day, but there were a lot of hangups. but something. hopefully not the e-470 corridor. i can see smoky hill, but how to fit it i am not sure.

[J Church]

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:6P0XxFMErCAJ:www.i-70eastcorridor.com/meetingminutes/WG_Transit-Stations/WGTransit_9-26-06_MtngMin.pdf+nextracks&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

Answer: The UP 36th Street Yard site can accommodate the three FasTracks Commuter rail corridors (East, North Metro, Northwest Rail) plus one additional (Gold Line) plus the potential North Front Range rail and Ski Train. Anything in addition to that (e.g., NexTracks—a Commerce City/Brighton line down US 85) will likely but not necessarily require an additional site. It would all depend upon layover potentials for train storage on each of the corridors.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:4YeoKt_zqoEJ:www.ci.longmont.co.us/city_council/minutes/documents/032806_min.pdf+nextracks&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

Mr. Marsella replied that Hover Road does not have the optimal operating configuration. RTD has coined a new phrase call NexTracks because today’s plans will have to be expanded later. He did not preclude the option of two lines that branch from Longmont.

They're still looking regional. Extension of the existing tax makes sense. But I'd like to see a supplemental for the city. That's where support is strongest and where the need is greatest.

[bunt_q]

Excellent... yeah, I think that's just a piece of it. Hell, if it goes anything like this fastrack did, we'll need to add 4 more corridors just to placate everybody politically. Anyways, like I said, I am confident the thought is more than just the northeast... just not sure what.

[bcp]

but remember...DRCOG's long term vision plan has lines on wads / colo / speer / colfax (i believe)

[wong21fr]

What's this *much needed* bond issue on next years ballot that you speak of?

[glowrock]

Saw this letter to the editor in this morning's post. This woman is completely sticking up for Pam Schenck (the evil one representing Park Meadows Mall). Anyone care to write a few nasty letters to HER for marginalizing light rail passengers???

Aaron (Glowrock)

----------------------------------------------------------

Re: "Light rail to mall? Bring a compass," Nov. 21 Diane Carman column.

I have been a successful merchant for the past 35 years and have had the privilege to work with Pam Schenck for the past six.

I find your commentary on Pam both insulting and unwarranted.

First, Pam was an employee of Rouse Company; she was only doing her job. She was not the decision-maker.

If you want to lash out, lash out at the decision-maker, not the messenger.

Saying that she is from outer space is childish.

Secondly, at the time Park Meadows opened, Southglenn Mall's claim to fame was its low sales tax.

Given the facts that you are a new shopping center trying to establish yourself, why would you handicap yourself and your customers with this additional sales tax?

Park Meadows as a shopping center has an obligation to its owners, merchants and customers to provide a competitive shopping experience.

They do not have an obligation to subsidize the few individuals who choose light rail as their means of transportation to shop.

Mary Staton, President, Silk Tree Ltd., Littleton

-----------------------------------------------------

[wong21fr]

I had a question, is the Southeast line able to accomodate express trains? Is it feesible?

[Cirrus]

Oooh she brought up "subsidize". Gee. Wonder how much PM is subsidizing drivers with all that free parking and all those roads they built.

Anyway. Express trains.

I've wondered about that too. With only two tracks it's possible, but difficult (assuming there are fairly frequent cross-overs). Non-express trains would have to wait at stations while express trains pass.

[wong21fr]

I'd guess that there would also be issues with which track the express would have to be on when bypassing the stations, a 55 MPH train and crossing pedestrians would not mix.

[bunt_q]

No, I don't think express trains are feasible here without passing tracks, not at the headways we have. Right now, these lines are running at incredibly good headways (once you get to Southmoor and points north, 8 minutes at the longest). The only way to run express trains would be to reduce the headways, and frankly, I'd rather have the frequency than the convenience for the folks boarding at the very back end. We can't really shorten headways anymore either... unfortunate consequence of the way the trains are run through downtown, but you're already seeing trains having to stop and fall "a headway" behind because a train misses a light cycle downtown or you get a few idiots that slow down dwell times at stations. Problem again is, if we try and push more trains through downtown to run express trains (possible, granted), you end up lowering the speed limits on the grade separated portions outside of town so that the dedicated "blocks" (sections of track that can only have one train at a time to avoid colisions) for each train can be tightened up (again, defeats the purpose!)

[bunt_q]

What's this *much needed* bond issue on next years ballot that you speak of?

We're supposed to see another one of Denver's "neighborhood bond issues" next year. Misc capital improvements, utility improvements (storm drainage and such)... the not-so-glorious but probably in the long run more necessary things we see on the ballot every few years. The open question is - will it include repairs/upgrades for the botanic gardens? That'd be the biggest line item (and the make-it or break-it proposition if it's in there)

Personally, I want it left out... it is important, yes, but I think that should be decided separately from the nuts and bolts improvements that (IMHO) should be the first priority of the city.

[bunt_q]

I'd guess that there would also be issues with which track the express would have to be on when bypassing the stations, a 55 MPH train and crossing pedestrians would not mix.

Excellent, excellent point... you're right, you probably can't do that.

[soonermeteor]

Got to ride the trains today. It only took 45 minutes from Lincoln to 16th street and that was with about a 10 minute delay because a train was stuck on the tracks. There were a lot of families using the train which was great to see. Kids were being shown the greatness of urban transit;) . The train had all seats taken with even a few people standing by the time we got to Broadway. The only bad thing I noticed was the confusion over Park Meadows. They had an RTD official stationed at County Line who got asked by 4 different groups of people how to get to the mall while we were sitting at the station ( we were there for about 3 minutes because of the delay i discussed earlier).

[bukden]

Man hit by light-rail train dead

By Rocky Mountain News
November 25, 2006
ENGLEWOOD - Light-rail service along a stretch of track between Englewood and Denver was disrupted Friday after a man was hit by a train about 6 p.m. Although the man was found dead, "We're not sure of exactly what happened," said John Hoeh-ler of the Englewood Police Department, explaining that authorities don't know if the individual was hit and killed by the train or was already lying on the tracks when the train hit him.
According to RTD spokesman Scott Reed, the driver of the northbound train reported hitting something.
"He did not see anyone on the tracks," Reed said.
When RTD investigators arrived, they found the body of a man believed to be in his 40s on the east side of the tracks.
"We did find some identification," Hoehler said. "But we're not sure if it belongs to the deceased or not."
Reed said there is no pedestrian access in the area, which is bordered by a 6-foot fence.
The accident occurred between the Englewood Civic Station and the Evans Street Station.
RTD provided shuttle-bus service for light-rail riders between the two stations for four hours. Service between Evans and downtown, and from Englewood to the Mineral Station in Littleton was not affected.

[glowrock]

I guess this fool found a nice way to commit suicide, unless he was already dead before the train ran over him, eh?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Top Of The Park]

...top speed is 57 and if one tries to exceed it which can be done going down a grade, you have three seconds before the train shuts off to bring it back to 57 or less as noted by a very high pitched whistle or the train will shut down (gradually). Many people think the trains operate by computer...not so. The hard part is getting the aspects and signals which sometimes foul up due to things like another train in the wrong block (not a city block). A train in the block ahead will give a red aspect and the signal must change to yellow to proceed...in other words the train ahead must move ahead to the next portion of track (about a half mile section). The difficulties come when the system is down to single track operation.

The two previous fatalities were on the SW line (obviously). One was an intoxicated individual who somehow got between the train and the high block (wheelchair loading ramp). The other was a suicide (noted by a suicide note)

[Cirrus]

Not sure I buy the headway argurment. We've got 90 second headways on some stretches in DC and are considering express trains on those lines (though no downtown traffic lights to contend with).

... But wong is probably right. Can't do express trains if pedestrians are crossing the tracks.

[wong21fr]

I'm not sure, but doesn't each of the Southeast stations have only one set of tracks over which the pedestrians can cross? This could still allow for a express train, at least to the Broadway station.

Would sidings also be required in order to this?

[bunt_q]

dbl

[bunt_q]

Not sure I buy the headway argurment. We've got 90 second headways on some stretches in DC and are considering express trains on those lines (though no downtown traffic lights to contend with).

... But wong is probably right. Can't do express trains if pedestrians are crossing the tracks.

The headway argument isn't an argument, that's just how it works... That is the real advantage of a totally grade-separated system. Otherwise you'd just back up trains on the edges of downtown and let them go one at a time (there are fixed spacing requirements for given speed limits... you can do 90 seconds because there's really no way to mess the spacing up) you also have much better control of dwell times at stations with the metro... people standing in the light rail stairwell can - and do, daily - delay a train 90 seconds. i'm not sure how we'd reduce that, other than to buy more trains, but that takes a year. RTD can't go much under 5-min headways at the downtown stations. The lights just don't let that many through. We did look at it... we looked at that a long, long time ago (in the southeast LRT EIS era)

really, now, rtd is running almost as many trains through downtown as it can... the idea being, with 3 lines going through downtown, you're still going to have pretty long time period between trains at the end of line stations running them as fast as you can. (15 min headways out there makes 5 min headways downtown) it's kind of cool now, though, you can always see a train and most of the time two downtown, even at night. there are a lot of trains now.

The idea of 3-tracking the stretch between broadway and auraria is so you can run really low headways into union station. but through downtown is never meant to get much better than it is now. if you could do express trains at the south end, we'd just have to run more trains into the CPV (and probably triple track, which is coming anyways)... oh, and add some grade separations. the city of denver will do that eventually, because as it is now you can barely get across 13th ave... the gates are always down.

[wong21fr]

Bunt,

So, when the tracks are layed in the CPV, wil it be more feasable to have a express train running into Union Station? The idea of 3-tracking from Broadway to Auraria sounds interesting, is it a concept being seriously pursued? I have always thought that a Broadway Corridor line would be the solution in order to accomodate the increasing traffic. But would 3-tracking the existing lines be a cheaper solution? As long as they also increase the grade-seperation, I would be quite happy.

[bcp]

speaking of riders crossing the tracks / platforms...

i experienced something at the broadway station that i've never been through riding transit before - 200 people jump off of the C train. 100 transfer and 100 are done riding. however, there is a train in our way so we had to WAIT for the train to leave in order to cross the track...then there was another train on the 3rd track...same thing again.

honestly, as a former dc, nyc, chicago system user, it was incredibly frustrating having to stand and WAIT....and a little embarrassing to see people scratching their head, snickering and some sneering.

[twellsie]

I had to do that transfer myself at Broadway a couple times last week because, for whatever reason, the E line just never showed up at Union Station at its designated time.

[glowrock]

I had to do that twice already... However, given that the train moved within 30 seconds or so, I don't think it was that big of a deal... ;)

As for the grade-separating of LRT at 13th Ave., isn't that already in the cards as part of FasTracks? Maybe not, but I thought it was, especially with the further increase in train traffic when the West Corridor opens up in 2013...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bcp]

^30 seconds is quite painful when you are in a hurry..enough to discourage ridership IMO

[joeindt]

A couple of points since trex has started:

o The trains going into downtown at rush hour have been mostly 3 cars and are generally packed.
o If they raise the speed limit to 65mph to broadway along i-25, the train will legally be able to travel 65mph (isn't that true, I heard something about that because of the shared ROW with the hiway)
o how long before rtd is forced to create another central rail alignment to allow more trains to come in from the south suburbs, anyone know the threshold?

[joeindt]

*bump*

out of curiosity, anyone know about the speed question?

[bunt_q]

Umm, no, the LRT's speed limit has nothing to do with the highway speed limit.

[joeindt]

ok thanks. I bet I was thinking of at grade situations.

[twellsie]

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k128/twellsie/IMG_7020.jpg

[FillIn' Fine]

SE line was worth its weight in gold this morning

[glowrock]

I was at work too early this morning to even take the train (earliest I can get here via bus/transit is about 6:50am, I was in closer to 6 this morning!)... ;)

But yes, having rail service is HUGE during bad weather!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Airliners 2000]

out of curiosity, anyone know about the speed question?

Not entirely related to your question, but one of my criticisms of light-rail is its peak speed. Perhaps I have become too spoiled by the amazing intracity rail systems in Europe, but on some sections of the lines, I know that speeds higher than 55 mph can be attained and would certainly make it more appealing.

Unfortunately the light-rail trains are not designed for speeds higher than 57 mph. Their maximum cruise speed is 55 mph, which is very close to their maximum designed speed. They do tend to rock side to side quite a bit at these higher speeds which I think reflects that this is really the maximum speed that they can safely run and comfortable run at.

I guess this is the consequence of the technology RTD chose. I'm not saying RTD was wrong in picking light-rail and I'm not saying light-rail is bad, but it does have its limitations. It is "light" rail afterall.

Light-Rail is essentially a hybrid version of a European tram and a traditional EMU. It takes the best of both worlds which I think is why it has found its way into the North American market, while not so much in Europe, where they still emphasize the construction of BOTH tram lines and EMU lines (operating as rapid transit railways going into the suburbs of the city AND operating as subways in the cores of the city). There are a few light-rail systems in Europe (Zürich's S18 line is just that), but they are quite few and are usually an extension of a city's tram network.

A few years back, I heard that the newer SD-160s which RTD got are actually capable of speeds 10 mph faster than the SD-100, but I think this information is false.

Calgary which was the first city to get SD-160s (they got the high platform version) does not operate them faster than 55 mph.

Another complaint I have about light-rail, specifically Denver's light-rail, is the high floors which have 3 (or is it 4) relatively uncomfortable (according to my mom at least). Having steps is a major drawback of the light-rail, IMO. This is something traditional EMUs using high platforms do not have to worry about, as well as modern low-floor light-rail.

Low-floor trams have existed for many many years and are in very extensive use in Europe. Even older European trams have floors that are not very high, and many of these older trams are being refurbished to have low-floor sections and will be used for many more years being run alongside the modern sleek trams.

Of course, a tram is a lot more compact than light-rail and is not designed for as high speeds, however, low-floor light-rail technology has existed for sometime now as well, and I don't know why RTD didn't pursue it. I frankly think Calgary's system of high-floor light-rail trains using high platforms to be a good idea as well. It was definitely a good option before the advent of low-floor light-rail technology.

Oh well, I guess we'll have to live with it. I'm thankful Denver has SOME form of intracity rail transit now, even if it is not that great.

[glowrock]

Just saw this "Speakout" in the Rocky Mountain News this morning concerning the "real costs" of driving vs. transit. Anyone care to inform me just what the hell this person is talking about??? What are these "indirect costs" he's referring to? If he's referring to transit subsidies, I suggest he takes also into account all of the road/highway subsidies as well. Otherwise, as usual, it's yet another anti-transit fool talking out his ass in the Rocky! :hell:

Aaron (Glowrock)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Speakout: Light rail vs. car: Not so fast, News
STORY TOOLS
Email this story | Print
By Tom Anthony
December 4, 2006
The Nov. 21 Rocky Mountain News carried a comparison of two reporters taking a trip beginning at Highlands Ranch and ending at the same point in downtown Denver. Charlie Able drove a private automobile and Fernando Quintero took the Regional Transportation District's new southeast light rail. Able reached the destination in 36 minutes, but spent a reported $14.05. Quintero arrived in one hour, but spent only $3.75 on his RTD fare. Apparent conclusion: It's 375 percent more expensive to drive a car than take RTD, at least according to the report.

Now, it's not wise to rile Mother Nature, and since RTD is rapidly acquiring that status in the Denver metro area, I hesitate to point out a couple minor financial assumptions that lurk beneath the surface of this glowing rhapsody.

First, Able paid $12 to park, which accounted for 85 percent of his cost. However, aren't there a few $5 "all day" lots still around? Also, he doesn't have to pay to park when he gets home, and Quintero does have to pay the $3.75 return fare, so round-trip costs are: add another $2.05 for Able's gas for $16.10 total, while Quintero forks over $7.50 total. So Able only paid 215 percent more than Quintero.

But wait - Able only figured gas and parking; aren't there more costs to operating a car? We know the IRS lets you deduct 45 cents a mile for business use of a car, so that's an easy way of estimating the per-mile costs of operating an automobile - costs that include maintenance, insurance and depreciation as well as gasoline. Based on this 45-cents-per-mile rule of thumb, the Highlands Ranch-Denver-Highlands Ranch round-trip of about 40 miles actually cost Able $18 plus parking, for a total of $30. Since Quintero is still at $7.50, Able paid 400 percent more than he.

Only, aren't there some indirect costs associated with both the auto and the light rail? For instance, the car needs a garage and driveway, road maintenance, safety response, an Iraq war . . . let's guess maybe another 10 cents a mile. The light rail? RTD acknowledges it only collects 9.5 percent of its operating costs at the farebox (Legislative Audit, 2006) so the real cost of the light rail ride isn't $3.75. It's probably not 10 times that, but is the 16th Street Mall Shuttle really "free"? Let's go with five times the fare and save a doctoral dissertation. So this portion of Quintero's ride had to be at least $18.75 - five times the $3.75 fare. If he used the popular "Call 'n Ride" service, add another $14.76 per boarding (2004 estimated subsidy).

And what was the capital cost of building the light rail in both hard costs and bond interest? It's hard to quantify the cost per ride, but somebody had to buy that nice train set. Over the life of a 20-year bond the $879 million cost becomes about $1.34 billion and since two-thirds of the riders were using the bus before RTD forced them onto light rail, the Federal Transit Administration estimates the "incremental cost per incremental passenger" at $18.40 per boarding. So the total "public" cost for Quintero's trip is $18.75 plus $14.76 plus $18.40 times two (round trip) for a grand total of $103.82 paid by somebody.

Quintero's pretty smart to take advantage of that huge public subsidy, right? But wait, is Quintero's time worth anything? If so, his extra 24 minutes of travel time each way adds up to 48 marginalized minutes of time out of his day. At perhaps $20 per hour, that means an additional cost of $16 in lost time. So, $7.50 out of pocket and $16 in lost time equals $23.50. Add indirect costs and the total comes to $119.82. Compare that to Able's direct costs of 45 cents a mile plus parking: $18 plus $12 equals $30 (add about $4 of indirect costs for a total of $34). But if Able can find a $5 parking lot, his direct costs will be $23 and Quintero's $23.50.

You can see why telling the truth is harder than the Nov. 21 story's simplistic assessment of $14.05 vs. $3.75. And you can see why maybe it's a bit smarter for the community, from a social-cost standpoint, to live near one's workplace than to hype the wonderful value of the Southeast Corridor light rail system we just built.

Tom Anthony is a resident of Denver.

------------------------------------------------

[joeindt]

I don't see what you are complaining about here.

[IdahoMountainBoy]

Hi all, I'm moving to denver in 11 days to attend DU. I will be living downtown near the 16th street mall, perhaps this has been discussed but could anyone give me a general idea of how long the ride from DT to DU would be on T-REX?

[DenverInfill]

Hi all, I'm moving to denver in 11 days to attend DU. I will be living downtown near the 16th street mall, perhaps this has been discussed but could anyone give me a general idea of how long the ride from DT to DU would be on T-REX?

Welcome to Denver! I'm guessing about 15-20 minutes.

[bunt_q]

Hi all, I'm moving to denver in 11 days to attend DU. I will be living downtown near the 16th street mall, perhaps this has been discussed but could anyone give me a general idea of how long the ride from DT to DU would be on T-REX?


The official on-train time for me going to school in the evening is 22 minutes (18th/Stout to University). It's about a 9 minute walk from the station to the law school. Add 4 minutes because the trains have been running a tad bit late.

From where I work downtown, it's also about 10 minutes to the station...so that's a variable for you. And I don't check the schedules, so I give myself about 5 minutes more for wait time. So for me, 50 minutes door-to-door... with a bit of thinking I could cut that down 5 minutes.

It took me 40 min to drive.

Get on at 18th, not 16th - it's the only way you will get a seat. So what you going to DU for?


Edit:
Welcome to Denver! I'm guessing about 15-20 minutes.

Don't I wish, Ken... ever the planner you are, comparing apples and oranges on travel times :)

[DenverInfill]

^ I was thinking on-train time, and your number was only 2 minutes more than my upper limit, Mr. Smartypants.

Hey, let's not be dissin' planners now. I work for an engineering firm. That's bad enough! :)

About a week ago at night I took a trip from Union Station to Lincoln and back. It was off-peak so not too many people on the train. According to the schedule, it was supposed to be a 41 minute trip. Heading down it was 42 and coming back it was 40. Not too bad!

[IdahoMountainBoy]

I'm attending DU as a Geography major (duh) with an emphasis in physical/GIS/Atmospheric geography with a stated minor in education and urban planning.

I'll be living basically right on 16th about half a block from a T-REX station so I guess I'll just have to live with standing if its really that packed at 7AM. 25 minutes? That's not too bad at all, I've always wanted to be able to travel to school and study at the same time while doing my part for the environment...so I'll be killing 3 birds with one stone =)

I meant to ask another question, how often do trains come by? every 20-30 minutes?

[bcp]

welcome and congrats...at that time you might be every 10 minutes or so because you can take either the H or the F train to DU from downtown stations.

[bunt_q]

Oh no, even better than that... because you can take either line, the train gap will alternate...they're on cycles, it'll go 8, 7, 8, 7 and such... if you don't mind going to union station coming home from DU, you'll see trains even more frequent than that.

By the way, you'll have no trouble getting a seat going out of downtown in the AM and back in in the PM. I go with the rush hour travel...

[J Church]

What, you're telling me there aren't crowds of people commuting from downtown to the Tech Center?

[Paulopolis]

I couldn't find the Front Range or any other RTD threads so I'm posting this here. It's an article from ColoradoBiz Magazine.


1/1/2007-1/31/2007
Colorado's 25 most powerful businesses and organizations

By Robert Schwab

Two years ago, ColoradoBiz ranked the 25 Most Powerful organizations, businesses and other institutions in the state, naming Colorado voters as the most powerful group with influence on state affairs.

This year, we rank the Regional Transportation District, RTD, as the No. 1 Most Powerful organization in the state.

Even if it did not make the list two years ago, RTD, with $4.7 billion worth of power to spend over the next decade on the mass-transportation FasTracks system, has stormed the list of organizations just as effectively as newly elected Sen. Ken Salazar stormed the list of 25 Most Powerful people in the state in 2005.

And RTD has a people partner in making it the most powerful.

Governor-elect Bill Ritter — he may be sworn in by the time you read this if it’s after Jan. 9, the day of the inauguration — plans to appoint a blue-ribbon transportation commission within 90 days of taking office. RTD’s spidery light-rail system will figure in any plans the state makes to solve traffic congestion along the entire Front Range, on the way into town from Denver International Airport, and up the hill to the state’s tourist playgrounds via the Interstate 70 corridor.

The lack of action taken by some of the 2005 Most Powerful groups led to their being left off this year’s 2007 list. Among the groups that dropped off the list were those very same Colorado voters, since they really had empowered RTD in 2004 with their vote, and since then were taking mere maintenance steps by approving catch-up state funding in Referendum C in 2005 elections, and voting on a new governor in 2006.

Others that fell off this year’s list compared with 2005’s were First Data Inc., which spun off its most powerful business arm, Western Union, the money transfer company that maintained its headquarters presence in Colorado, however. Also the Colorado General Assembly, which in essence, ceded much of its power to voters in the Ref. C election. The United Food and Commercial Workers Local 7, as well as its largest employer of members, King Soopers, fell off the list, largely because no strikes or labor disputes have developed over the past two years that demonstrated them exerting their power. Regal Entertainment Group, a Philip Anschutz company, moved from Colorado during the two years. Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield and National Jewish Medical and Research Center in effect were largely silent during the two years and, therefore, fell off the list to make way for newcomers.

One of those newcomers includes an old listed company, Vail Resorts, but it is joined by other ski-industry companies and interests because as a combined entity, the ski industry in Colorado has enormous influence. And other groups of shared interests, Front Range water authorities and companies, for example, made the list because of their aggregate power, while others — the oil and gas industry — were considered but did not make the list because there was no dominating company or entity to lead their charge onto it.

So our ColoradoBiz 2007 list of the 25 Most Powerful organizations in the state is based on the same criteria as two years ago: the wealth of an organization, the clout conjured up by merely invoking the name of the institution, the size of the group (number of employees of a business, for example) and the entity’s influence or audience (number of customers served, or national or global reach).

So for the second time, ColoradoBiz presents these 25 Most Powerful organizations. Here’s our list:

1. RTD
Look at all the hype that attended RTD’s opening of the Southeast Light Rail, a nearly $900 million transit line that runs from Downtown Denver to Park Meadows shopping mall along Interstate 25 and out to Parker Road along I-225 in Aurora. The Southeast line was part of the T-Rex transportation expansion project engineered during Gov. Bill Owens’ administration, and its cost doesn’t even figure into the $4.7 billion FasTracks money approved for RTD to spend over the next 10 years. In order to gauge the impact of that future spending, you have to realize FasTracks is the state’s largest current public-spending construction project, and it will provide jobs to Colorado’s construction industry throughout the next decade. The money includes a good chunk devoted to the City of Denver’s redevelopment of its Union Station transportation hub, which also will host a train from DIA and the termini of the five other new light-rail arms that extend RTD’s mass-transit mission into all directions of the metropolitan area. And none of RTD’s current plans include a solution to the state’s Interstate 70 corridor congestion. That statewide solution will inevitably include a mass-transit asset that RTD will probably be involved in providing. The agency’s experience with rail-based people movers will give state officials no choice but to include RTD as a partner in that huge, multi-billion-dollar solution.

[soonermeteor]

Since this thread got revived with a great article posted by Paul, I thought I'd take the time to mention what I saw tonight on the way to the Nuggets game. All lines heading out of either downtown or union station were packed! There was one train headed to Lincoln where people were standing on the steps next to the door.

[Cirrus]

And none of RTD’s current plans include a solution to the state’s Interstate 70 corridor congestion. That statewide solution will inevitably include a mass-transit asset that RTD will probably be involved in providing. The agency’s experience with rail-based people movers will give state officials no choice but to include RTD as a partner in that huge, multi-billion-dollar solution. Personally I'd be a little concerned about the prospect of RTD becoming a statewide agency. It mat make things easier in the short run, but in the long run it would probably bleed money away from the Denver area.

It's long past time for a statewide Colorado Transit Authority anyway. There ought to have been regular bus service on the two interstate corridors years ago.

[Octavian]

Public bus service? Why?

That type of bus service is something the private market should provide. I live in DC. There are Chinatown buses running between DC, NY and Boston for $20 for each leg of the journey. In DC, there's even something called the Circulator Bus, a private company which competes directly with the DC metro is very popular, makes money and has lower fares. The DC metro is raising fares because it faces a $160 million shortfall.

Rail projects (in the city) differ from buses in that they involve a large capital expenditures which private companies won't pony up for. Rail i think is a good example of a natrual monopoly. However, I don't think this is the case for bus service along Colorado's corridors.

Also, I read somewhere that RTD's lightrail fares only cover like 30% of operating expenses, the rest made up through taxes. In DC, the rate is like 60%. RTD's revenue from tickets as a percentage of sales seemed low. When I was riding on the T-REX corridor the other day, I concluded that unlike DC, you can basically ride the train for free. Enforcement seems very lax (no turnstiles and the like), much more lax than in Philly DC or NY. It seems as if RTD is bleeding a lot of revenue by not having an effective mechanism for collecting fares besides "the honor system."

[J Church]

In reverse order:

1) IIRC, RTD's fare evasion rate is close to industry standard, 2 or 3 percent.

2) Dense apples and not-yet-very dense oranges.

3) See #2 for the reason the private sector hasn't provided the sort of bus service along the Front Range that, while not profitable, would be a worthy public service.

[Paulopolis]

Personally I'd be a little concerned about the prospect of RTD becoming a statewide agency. It mat make things easier in the short run, but in the long run it would probably bleed money away from the Denver area.

It's long past time for a statewide Colorado Transit Authority anyway. There ought to have been regular bus service on the two interstate corridors years ago.

I think that this organization is the embryo that could potentially develop into a statewide transit authority: http://www.rangerxpress.com/default.htm

[Octavian]

double post

[Octavian]

Interesting about the evasion rate. Thanks. That explains it. Down with turnstyles in NY and DC?

I also agree with the big apples, small oranges analogy. But I would say if the apples aren't big enough (and there isn't enough demand) invest elsewhere. I disagree with the idea that it would be a worthy public service.

[J Church]

Perhaps, but you can't grow a thing without planting the seed. I'm also not so sure about rejecting an idea out of hand without seeing the numbers first.

[Cirrus]

I live in DC too, Octavian.

1. Washington’s suburbs are actually a very good example of exactly the thing Colorado should have. The Maryland Transit Administration operates a whole network of intercity buses all over the state. Granted Maryland and Colorado are not exactly comparable geographically, but nevertheless, check it out (http://www.mtamaryland.com/services/commuterbus/schedulesSystemMaps/index.cfm). And while we’re at it, don’t forget the other side of the Potomac, served by the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation (http://www.drpt.state.va.us/).

2. The Chinatown buses are great, but the Northeast Corridor is different than anything else in the country. 21 million people in New York, 8 million in DC/Baltimore, 6 million in Philadelphia and Boston and a million each in Hartford and Providence. The density of potential passengers is far, far higher than what could be expected in Colorado, and therefore it is far, far easier for a private company to profit. The comparison is not even apples to oranges; it’s apples to state-fair-winning giant pumpkins.

3. The Circulator bus was planned and is primarily funded by the District DOT and is operated by WMATA. What private sector funding it gets comes from the various downtown BIDs and the Convention Center Authority, all of which are quasi-governmental at least. It serves a different niche than the Metro and most certainly does not compete with it. I would also challenge your assessment that it's “very popular”. It’s a small, growing service that I like, but ridership remains pretty low (and indeed, is expected to remain low until the government-funded K Street transitway is built).

4. WMATA’s budget shortfall is not a result of it being publicly operated, but a result of having no dedicated source of funding and needing to go begging for money to every jurisdiction every year, meanwhile providing increased service to a demanding population.

5. Studies show that the honor system frequently saves money, since fully enclosed stations add so much to the capital cost of building a line and since fare evasion is actually pretty low in most cases. WMATA is able to cover such a high percentage of its operating costs because it has high ridership density (much higher than Denver) and high fares.

[1Post2]

Just for the record, I've never been asked for a stub when on light rail, and couldn't even find a validation machine at one of the southeast stations (a week after opening). The honor system may be satisfactory, but small efforts toward fare enforcement would go a long way.

I wouldn't expect to be checked every time I ride, but I shouldn't know that I won't be.

[wong21fr]

I've been busted for not having a stub and an expired student ID on the C Line by RTD Security, so enforement is there, abiet light.

[joeindt]

RTD really needs to get its act together on stocking the tic machine with coins. I've rode 'free' 2/3 times I've taken the train because the machine either wasn't taking dollars or because it was out of order. It's kind of ridiculous. I need to buy a book of 10, but haven't been able to.

On another topic.. believe in traffic induction. It seems to be happening. It's funny, the highway always seems to get fuller and fuller now that the 4 lanes have been open now for a couple of months. For the 1st month it was literally wide open, I could blast to work going 80+. Now, not possible. The time it takes to make the 'whole trip' home is about the same as before the 4 lanes.. just slightly better like 2 mins for a 12 mile trip. I really do believe its made york more congested and it offsets any speed bonus on i-25.

and lastly.. the idea of statewide rail is great, part of the density argument depends on how things are built, ie many mountain towns and resorts are compact and have good bus systems already.. it would be a good fit. I think the problem with the idea is CDOT will have to be overhauled, the current mindset isn't 'transportation', but roads.

[Front_Range_Guy]

Funny, I've only taken the lightrail a handfull of times and have been checked by some scary FBI, men in black looking guy's at least twice.

[bcp]

joe your wish will come true.....CDOT is appointed by our new gov...and with his talk of transit and density and highspeed rail i cant imagine that our buddy tom norton will be in power much longer.

[joeindt]

^Excellent! :banana:

[glowrock]

RTD really needs to get its act together on stocking the tic machine with coins. I've rode 'free' 2/3 times I've taken the train because the machine either wasn't taking dollars or because it was out of order. It's kind of ridiculous. I need to buy a book of 10, but haven't been able to.

On another topic.. believe in traffic induction. It seems to be happening. It's funny, the highway always seems to get fuller and fuller now that the 4 lanes have been open now for a couple of months. For the 1st month it was literally wide open, I could blast to work going 80+. Now, not possible. The time it takes to make the 'whole trip' home is about the same as before the 4 lanes.. just slightly better like 2 mins for a 12 mile trip. I really do believe its made york more congested and it offsets any speed bonus on i-25.

and lastly.. the idea of statewide rail is great, part of the density argument depends on how things are built, ie many mountain towns and resorts are compact and have good bus systems already.. it would be a good fit. I think the problem with the idea is CDOT will have to be overhauled, the current mindset isn't 'transportation', but roads.

Funny, I actually notice the opposite effect on I-25, Joe. I-25 is actually pretty much free-flowing southbound for much of the T-Rex area, and northbound it tends to only jam up because of the bottleneck at Santa Fe...

Then again, the situation has been really weird lately for traffic counts, since the SE corridor opened up, lots of holidays this time of the year, snowstorms, etc... etc...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[joeindt]

well if you read a little closer, I'm referring to the highway has more cars now, the density of cars has increased.

So by opposite effect are you saying there are less cars on the highway?

[bunt_q]

Yeah, I haven't seen it either... the "density of cars" (read: traffic) is less now than it was before the highway was opened up. Visibly much less... That may change over time through induced traffic, but we'll see... Keep in mind, though, induced traffic is in addition to traffic that was taking neighborhood streets and is now switching back to the highway... that's not "induced traffic," which is typically only referring to new trips that were not made at all before. if the increases we see are only slight, and that is actually traffic being pulled from other streets, then we are seeing a real benefit, even if traffic on the hgihway goes right back to where it was beforehand. The improvements we are looking for are systemwide improvements.

[joeindt]

traffic is not the same as more cars. traffic is a catch all. traffic coming off the side streets is still induced traffic, its gotta come from some where. but it also seems to have a reverse affect by flooding the exits too, like york. but more likely people are using the highway more now because its running more predictably.

traffic is visibly much less going northbound where the trains are full going into dt in the morning, and less going south bound in the evening when the trains are full again, not true for people who are dtc bound.

car density is continuing to grow, embrace it thats what highways are for. I bet in 5 years, it will be gridlock again.

And if i-25 is helping the entire network, why is 70, 270, 225, mousetrap, north i-25 all still in bad shape?

[J Church]

How could there not be induced demand when you (temporarily, at least) clear congestion?

I imagine there's a fair amount already, but the increase in capacity was so dramatic it may be a few years before you see the same levels of congestion. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[bunt_q]

the network is not just the metro areas main highways. southbound downing is much, much better of now than it was 3 months ago.

and "induced traffic" is a term of art... it means something in the traffic world very specific (and different from what you are talking about). it is not simply all traffic that is "induced" in the normal meaning of the word. when you hear the anti-highway crowd railing against expansions because of "induced traffic," the ones who are worth listening to know what that means - most unfortunately don't (which is what gives the idea a bad name).

not much different really than laypeople talking about global warming after a warm winter...

i have no doubt that traffic will be bad again in a few years, but that does not mean the expansion was for naught.

[J Church]

Didn't say it was, but those darned laypeople, they tend to think of highway widenings in terms of long-term if not permanent benefit.

[joeindt]

I just wanted to make that observation since we have all kinds of scenarios to compare with like added lanes and the rail component, an auto oriented destination vs compact ped oriented. I just think its interesting to observe since I've read a few studies and of course read the stories on inducing traffic.

I just believe urban highway expansion is complicated and the conflict of interests that it causes just makes it all the more misleading and confusing and yes I'm going to say it: many times un-needed.

[bcp]

so i've done some geeky research on nextracks...and here is what i'm finding:

Longmont City council meeting
Mr. Marsella replied that Hover Road does not have the optimal operating configuration. RTD has coined a new phrase call NexTracks because today’s plans will have to be expanded later. He did not preclude the option of two lines that branch from Longmont

East Corridor Transit Working Group
22. Would the maintenance facility be maxed out at four trains?Answer: The UP 36th Street Yard site can accommodate the three FasTracks Commuter railcorridors (East, North Metro, Northwest Rail) plus one additional (Gold Line) plus the potentialNorth Front Range rail and Ski Train. Anything in addition to that (e.g., NexTracks—a CommerceCity/Brighton line down US 85) will likely but not necessarily require an additional site. It wouldall depend upon layover potentials for train storage on each of the corridors


that's it....sounding more like additional commuter rail lines / extensions...but maybe they'll fold in an expanded streetrcar urban system for denver as well...

[joeindt]

neato!

[FrancoRey]

:dunce: hlant! Hlant hlant!! (sniff) :haha: