[joeindt]

Different from FasTracks. The end of the line for TREX!
Theres about a million stories I'm too lazy to post. I'll do this one though.

Use electric trains for next line
By Judy Montero
Article Last Updated:11/16/2006 08:00:34 PM MST


Today marks the opening of the Regional Transportation District's new southeast light rail line, the second full-length commuter line in Denver's emerging rapid transit system.

The new line follows Interstate 25 along the T-REX corridor from Broadway to Park Meadows Mall. In the process, it crosses some of Denver's most densely residential areas. But the people living in those neighborhoods hardly notice the trains at all. Powered by overhead electric lines, they glide along almost noiselessly, with no plumes of exhaust in their wake.

That's the whole point of FasTracks: Voters approved it to cut down on highway traffic, reduce air and noise pollution, and improve the quality of life in metro Denver. If the trains were loud and foul- smelling, that would kind of defeat the purpose.

But loud, smelly trains might end up running on some of the FasTracks routes still waiting to be built. It will happen, in fact, unless you and I urge RTD to make a bold decision.

Three of the lines - the northwest rail corridor to Boulder, the north metro corridor, and the east corridor to DIA - are envisioned as commuter-rail lines rather than light-rail. Commuter-rail vehicles are larger and heavier-framed than light-rail trains, so they require larger engines and greater amounts of power. And that means they generate more noise and air pollution.

But there's a simple way to avoid those problems: EMUs. Electric Multiple Units are the cleanest, quietest commuter-rail vehicles in existence. They're common all over Europe, Asia and Australia. A number of commuter lines in the eastern U.S. use them, too.

However, most of the commuter- rail systems in this country operate on diesel power. Cities tend to gravitate toward diesel for a couple of reasons. First, it has a proven track record. Second, diesel-based lines are easier and cheaper to implement than electric-based ones. And maintaining the power lines for an electric-based route requires additional time and money.

But the return on that investment is a better quality of life - which is the reason voters approved FasTracks.

As the chairwoman of the City Council's FasTracks Committee, I've urged RTD to choose EMUs over diesel-powered trains for the commuter-rail lines. Mayor John Hickenlooper has joined me in that request, citing the following reasons:

Noise: RTD studies have found that EMU vehicles are quieter than DMU vehicles. Given the close proximity of residential neighborhoods to the commuter rail lines and Union Station, this is an important consideration.

Air quality: A recent RTD presentation to the Denver City Council showed that EMU vehicles produce absolutely no particulate matter, no oxides of nitrogen and hydrocarbons, and no carbon monoxide. Deisel-powered trains produce all three.

Sustainable energy sources: Initially, the EMUs will probably run on electricity generated in a traditional coal- or natural-gas power plant, which means there will be some indirect pollution. However, RTD may shift at some point in the future to clean, sustainable fuel sources such as solar- or wind-powered electricity.

Commuter-rail maintenance facility (CRMF): RTD will need a separate maintenance facility for the commuter-rail portion of FasTracks. Siting the facility won't be easy - my staff and I have been working on it for more than a year. But the CRMF is far less likely to meet with strong opposition if the commuter-rail lines use EMUs rather than diesel-powered trains.

Here's yet another consideration: Under one of the two master plans proposed for Union Station, the commuter-rail boarding areas would lie underground. If that plan is accepted, then ventilation becomes a big, costly problem - lest passengers ride in to and out of the boarding areas through exhaust- filled tunnels.

RTD is in the process of drafting its environmental impact statements for the three commuter-rail corridors, and public input plays a critical role in those documents. RTD takes comments by mail, over the phone, at public meetings, and via the Internet. The decision will have long-lasting consequences for the whole metro area, so make your voice heard.

Three U.S. metropolitan areas - New York, Chicago and Philadelphia - already use EMUs to one extent or another. Denver can become the fourth. We can build the cleanest, safest, most state-of-the- art commuter-rail system in America - a model for others to copy. In the process, we can uphold the quality of life that FasTracks is supposed to protect and preserve long into the future.

Judy Montero represents District 9 on the Denver City Council.

[joeindt]

I'll add a link too: http://www.southeastlightrail.com/

I'm going to try it out today from dtc. :cheers:

[glowrock]

I'll add a link too: http://www.southeastlightrail.com/

I'm going to try it out today from dtc. :cheers:

I'll give it a shot tonight, probably... Too bad it didn't open early this morning, or I would have tried it out already... ;)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[J Church]

Pics, people, pics! Some of us can't just hop on a train.

I'm going to put something up on the Transportation board if anyone wants to post there.

[joeindt]

Pics, people, pics! Some of us can't just hop on a train.

I'm going to put something up on the Transportation board if anyone wants to post there.

Hold your horses. Ken is going to take some and get the ribbon cutting too.

[twellsie]

I really wanted to do the train pub crawl but I've never been so busy as I am right now so I just can't take the time. :(

That said, if anybody wants to use the earlier list that I made with some added inclusions by glowrock:

1. Louisiana-Pearl: Village Cork or other bar right there..
2. University: The Border
3. Colorado: Dave & Busters
4. Yale: American Legion Post #4212 (joking)
5. Southmoor: Chili's
6. Dayton: ???
7. Nine Mile: Silla Korean BBQ (dinner here with some Soju)
8. Belleview: Cool River Cafe or Ya Ya's
9. Orchard: ???
10. Arapahoe: CB & Pott'
11. Dry Creek: Maggiano's
12. County Line: Rock Bottom Brewery
13. Lincoln Ave: ???

I can't recall the station name, but the one with reflectors in a tunnel has a motel across the freeway with a bar in it. You just take the elevator up and walk across the overpass.

Cheers to the new line! I'll have plenty of pics when I get some free time... and perhaps another little surprise I've been thinking about.

:banana:

[soonermeteor]

dam... have to wait until next week to ride :(

However, I'm expecting lots of pics to hold me over. :banana:

[FrancoRey]

Three U.S. metropolitan areas - New York, Chicago and Philadelphia - already use EMUs to one extent or another. Denver can become the fourth. We can build the cleanest, safest, most state-of-the- art commuter-rail system in America - a model for others to copy.
Judy Montero represents District 9 on the Denver City Council.

You mean like when you chose to build a "Model" Union Station for the whole country to follow? Sorry for my bitterness, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get screwed on EMUs too. Can't wait to see a diesel "L-train" rumbling down the 36 corridor.

[bunt_q]

I really wanted to do the train pub crawl but I've never been so busy as I am right now so I just can't take the time. :(

That said, if anybody wants to use the earlier list that I made with some added inclusions by glowrock:

1. Louisiana-Pearl: Village Cork or other bar right there..
2. University: The Border
3. Colorado: Dave & Busters
4. Yale: American Legion Post #4212 (joking)
5. Southmoor: Chili's
6. Dayton: ???
7. Nine Mile: Silla Korean BBQ (dinner here with some Soju)
8. Belleview: Cool River Cafe or Ya Ya's
9. Orchard: ???
10. Arapahoe: CB & Pott'
11. Dry Creek: Maggiano's
12. County Line: Rock Bottom Brewery
13. Lincoln Ave: ???

I can't recall the station name, but the one with reflectors in a tunnel has a motel across the freeway with a bar in it. You just take the elevator up and walk across the overpass.

Cheers to the new line! I'll have plenty of pics when I get some free time... and perhaps another little surprise I've been thinking about.

:banana:

Oh come on, your finals can't be any worse than mine, and I'm going drinking. Be a man! ;)

[glowrock]

Oh come on, your finals can't be any worse than mine, and I'm going drinking. Be a man! ;)

Brent, if you're heading out tonight, give me a call (if you don't have/remember my number, pm me)... I'll meet you at one of the stations!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[InfillJunkie]

Oh how cute GlowDome and Buntie are going on a date.

[bunt_q]

I'll be out tomorrow - tonight is James Bond. Again, like a real man!

[glowrock]

Oh how cute GlowDome and Buntie are going on a date.

Oh lord... :rolleyes:

Aaron (Glowrock)

PS: I believe GlowDome is a new one... Haha

[joeindt]

Oh my god... I made the mistake of riding today.. it was absolutely horrible.
I don't think I can ride again for another 2 months... :yuck:
thats bad huh.. it'll get better.. I just can't have another experience like that again for a while... It reminds me of a recent tek jansen adventure of when he was trying to land his space ship. oy!

[InfillJunkie]

Joe you totally should have taken ur car. It's so much better than mass transit!

[joeindt]

I agree. :P

[twellsie]

Oh come on, your finals can't be any worse than mine, and I'm going drinking. Be a man! ;) Just call me Marjorine.

Yes. I am a little girlie. That said, I wish it was only finals. I'm in this civil litigation clinic that has been hammering me. I did grab a quick ride today and test the walking distance from Louisiana Pearl Station to Sushi Den (5 minutes). Hell yes. I only took a few pics along the way, but here are a couple from Nine Mile Station. The line is stunning.

:whip:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k128/twellsie/IMG_6965-1.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k128/twellsie/IMG_6972.jpg

[glowrock]

Great sunset shots, twellsie! So, any ideas as to when the official pub-crawl will be? :)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Denver Bear]

I suggest any time after this weekend. All the suburbanites with their small children (film fesatival today for kids also) and being drunk might not be the best combo.

[glowrock]

Yeah, I think I agree with that, Denver Bear. Besides, I had my "can of sardines" couple of hours earlier today, when I went from I-25/Broadway to the Lincoln Station, then to the Nine-Mile Station, back to Belleview, and then back to I-25/Broadway... On all trips, PACKED standing-room only, reminding me a little of those infamous Tokyo subway scenes we've all seen!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Denver Bear]

it was standing room only at 5 Points too. LOL, it was so funny watching those white suburbanites up there. They didn't know how to act, clutching their children close and looking all nervous. I'd hate to see them in a city with a "real" bad neighborhood.

[bcp]

last night road the E from DUS...was great, even smelled like 'new train'. however, not sure if this is permanent, but from broadway to the L/P station the train CRAWLED along...was kinda painful. anybody else have that?

[bunt_q]

yep, same thing.... not sure that is going to change.

[denverryan]

This may have already been answered, but why are A and B not light rail lines? The only reason I can think of would be to keep A reserved for Airport, and B reserved for Boulder, but that's kind of ridiculous. Am I missing something? What happened to A and B?

Thanks,
yan

Edit: Also, did anyone else get the jitters looking at the current light rail map? We're like a real city!!! :D

[Front_Range_Guy]

Edit: Also, did anyone else get the jitters looking at the current light rail map? We're like a real city!!!

LOL. That's what people in Colorado Springs say everytime a new Wal Mart opens.

"Like a real city"... LOL

[Cirrus]

The only reason I can think of would be to keep A reserved for Airport, and B reserved for BoulderCorrect.

[bcp]

i think your A B assumptions are correct....

so...RTD really needs a PA system at the stations - hundreds of people were waiting for the E last night at 9:16 (myself included) - and after 14 disgruntled minutes the C rolls in....which according to all the scheudles wasn't supposed tobe running....don't quite get that one...andit had a lot of 'first time riders' grumbling...

so, weekends/ holidays there will only be ONE train in and out of union station...no more C, just E. and the run every 30 minutes....which to me seems pretty low.

[J Church]

Post video, pretty cool:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4680132

[J Church]

Bryan, according to the website the E will run every 15 minutes weekends.

[blm3034L!fe]

^ Nice find there J Church, Man this is an exciting time for the Denver area no doubt! I Love This City... :tup:

[1Post2]

^^ would also be quite a ride if the post had chance to stick the camera up out the front windows of the train.

[bcp]

ahh...my bad - just looked at the printed schedule again and you're right. still, i think they should keep the C runnign on the weekends as well.

when riding on satruday evening several skeptics quickly became fans once the trains started cruising...several women were laughing hysterically which became kind of infectious. one stranger said "you see, this is why trains are great, that never happens on the bus".

[DenverInfill]

Yo, fellow MW Forumers...

I have uploaded a T-Rex grand opening photo thread. Please check it out and post your comments there:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=120343

[TwasBrillig]

DenverInfill,

Great T-rex pics dude. I've been waiting for some.

[Giovoni]

Ya know.. not that this isn't true and it's too bad for some commuters but let me just say how not shocked I am that the RMN is pointing out how shity light rail is for these few people.. .(who's commute times will probably get sliced back down to less than they were before when Fastracks is over--no mention of that in the article... SHOCK!)


Some commute times to grow after T-REX
But RTD spokesman says most riders will see quicker trips

By Kevin Flynn, Rocky Mountain News
November 20, 2006
T-REX construction delays are over, but for Bob Bryant, the completion of the massive transportation project will cost him a lot more time.
Nineteen new miles of light rail opened Friday, promising convenience, safety and quicker commutes for tens of thousands of passengers every day.

But when Bryant took a look at the new bus and train timetables that start with today's rush hour, he wasn't happy.

"It's no party for me," said the 54-year-old mechanical designer who commutes to the Denver Tech Center from Erie, a 39-mile trip each way.

"It adds 25 minutes each way to my commute," Bryant said.

"I was really looking forward to this until they published the schedules. Then I was livid."

Bryant is among a segment of the commuting public for whom the opening of the Southeast Corridor light-rail lines will mean an increase in travel times.

Until today, he drove from his Erie home to the Wagon Road park-n- Ride at Interstate 25 and 120th Avenue.

There, he boarded the Route W regional bus and went straight to the stop at Ulster Street and Tufts Avenue, within walking distance of his office.

The transit portion of the trip took 43 minutes.

Come this morning, however, Route W is no more. Gone, too, are Route P from Franktown and Parker to downtown Denver and Route T from Boulder to the Tech Center.

In all, nearly two dozen bus routes are being discontinued as part of a realignment to feed bus riders into the new Southeast light-rail stations.

Bryant's new itinerary has him catching the Route 120X at Wagon Road to Denver's Union Station. There he would take the E Line light rail to Belleview Station, where he could either hoof it across the freeway or catch a ride on the connecting Route 105.

Total time in transit: 68 minutes - a nearly 60 percent increase in his travel time.

"I can't promote taking public transit with this ridiculous 25- minute increase in my time," he said.

RTD acknowledges that some riders will face longer and more complicated trips, but spokesman Scott Reed says those will be "rare circumstances."

"The vast majority of people will have a shorter trip time," he said. "Keep in mind that we are adding thousands of service hours to the Southeast Corridor area where they previously had very limited service."

Rich Breed, a Lakewood resident who uses the Route U bus from Wads-worth Boulevard and Hampden Avenue to get to his job in Inverness, said he will have to leave earlier but expects about the same travel time with light rail.

Previously, he transferred at the Tech Center to a southbound express bus.

The entire trip took him 75 minutes.

Taking light rail instead from Belleview to County Line Road and using a connecting call-n-Ride service looks to be about the same.

Call-n-Ride allows riders to call RTD and schedule personal pick- ups in smaller buses.

"I'm not too sure how this call-n- Ride is going to work," Breed said. "When it comes down to actually using it, that might be a different story.

"But one thing I've learned, when you use pubic transportation, you have to learn to roll with the flow."

[J Church]

And if RTD had kept the service, the Rocky would rail on it for duplicative waste. But I wouldn't make too much of this. It is a story, just not much of one. If the editorial board picks it up, then you've got an issue.

What I'm curious about is the overall impact on RTD's operating costs. Anyone know?

[joeindt]

^well its true. there are 10 people I work with that won't be taking the bus anymore to dtc. Their commutes would double or triple, and they have all made the switch to driving.

And for me, I had thought they were going to be running ciculators like the link, in dtc, and the link has discontinued service. They aren't, so getting to the station @ belleview is a pain. So I won't be riding the train either. A little disappointing to me.

[EngiNerd]

Why would they put all these new LRT stations in the DTC and then discontinue the circulator? That doesn't make much sense. The major concentration of towers along DTC boulevard are a pretty good walk from the LRT stations, especially in a business suite. Guess these are all things RTD will be looking at in the coming months I am sure and streamlining the system.

[joeindt]

The link circulator was created by a group of dtc employers as a convenience to their employees. It was privately funded. I just would've thought RTD wouldve seen the convenience of it.

[FillIn' Fine]

last night road the E from DUS...was great, even smelled like 'new train'. however, not sure if this is permanent, but from broadway to the L/P station the train CRAWLED along...was kinda painful. anybody else have that?

What do your mean 'crawled along?' I drive (gasp) down I-25 every night, and while they were testing the trains I drove along side a few and they were consistently doing 50 mph. Was it long waits at the stations that made the trip drag on, or were the trains themselves going slow?

[DenverInfill]

The link circulator was created by a group of dtc employers as a convenience to their employees. It was privately funded. I just would've thought RTD wouldve seen the convenience of it.

The Link is gone, but only because it's been replaced with numbered routes that accomplish the same thing. It's gone in name only.

[FillIn' Fine]

Light rail off to lite start
By Jeff Leib
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated:11/20/2006 12:17:29 PM MST

Southeast Light Rail

RTD's new southeast corridor light rail system got off to a fine start for its first day of commuter traffic this morning.

To the concern of many, the parking lots remained relatively empty, with end-of-the-line Lincoln station parking only about 40 percent of capacity at mid-morning. The large Arapaho station parking facility was only about 10 percent full at mid-morning.

Ridership figures were not immediately available, so it could not be determined if ridership was low or if many commuters were dropped off at the stations.

Most riders contacted were very enthusiastic about the newest, 19-mile commuter rail line.

Anthony Floro, a sophomore business student at Denver University, said he was eager to take the train because of the money it saves him. The drive from his home near Hampden Avenue and Tower Road normally takes him 30 to 40 minutes, more if I-225 is congested.

This morning, he boarded the train at 9-Mile station at 8 a.m. "For me, it's all about saving money, what with the price of gas," said Floro, who benefits from a reduced-fare student pass.



I am sure that they will be back in force after this slow week. RTD was smart to open this over the weekend and have the first week of service a light week.

[DenverInfill]

Joe is just being Mr. Crabbypants today. I rode the rails both Friday and almost all day Saturday, and I observed no significant problems. Due to the huge crowds, the trains did dwell at each station a little longer than normal, particularly with so many families with little kids and strollers as well as senior citizens. But we're talking about maybe an extra 45 seconds or so at each station. Otherwise, the trains zipped along at regular speed.

There was one time when we were heading from the Dayton to the Nine Mile station that we crept along at maybe no more than 20 or 30 mph, but it was a mechanical problem or something because after we got there, we had to wait for the next train to show up to take people back. Other than that, things seems to run as normal.

Besides, one should not use this weekend as a model of what regular workday experience would be like given that the free rail this weekend wasn't even on a schedule per se, plus they didn't even run the "H" line this weekend, so if you wanted to go from Nine Mile to Broadway, you had to go south and transfer at Belleview to then head north.

[InfillJunkie]

Poor Joe.

[joeindt]

Well actually I was talking about how inconvenient the bus service is now. And if you were to look at the new routes, they are not the same as link and not nearly as frequent either.

[InfillJunkie]

Mmm DenverInfill..you've just been served!

[DenverInfill]

I don't know what the Link schedule was compared to the ones now, but I know which building Joe works in and the 727 route goes from the Belleview station right past his building with busses running every 10 minutes during peak hours! :yes:

[InfillJunkie]

Mmm Joe, you betta represent!

[glowrock]

Funny thing, it looks like I might just be a regular commuter right now, since my car suddenly decided to crap out on me this morning! ;) I'll let you know how the Arapahoe Station to Cold Spring PnR works for me! Haha

Aaron (Glowrock)

[InfillJunkie]

No no thats the Arapahoe at Village Center Station, Glowbowl.

[joeindt]

They changed the routes and moved 727 to belleview so this being dtc, its not a fun walk to belleview and crossing traffic w/o 3000 lbs strapped around you and not exactly close, it turns into almost a 1/4 mile walk instead of being a 'block' away. It's almost as close and faster to walk to the station which is a scary 10 min walk. So its a 5 minute walk to the bus, then wait 5 min for the bus, then ride 5 mins to station, that equals 15 mins. Lets see 15mins + maybe a 5 min wait for the train .. ding, ding, ding, thats < 20 mins.

Boy Wonder: So Joe, how long does it take you to drive home door to door?

Thanks for asking. It takes me: ding, ding, ding, < 20 mins. the garage door is closing behind me and my dog is on the other side of the garage wagging her tail.

Boy Wonder: Joe, why wouldn't you want to spend 20 mins getting to the train? You like public transit right? And the train is 'super fast' once you're on it.

well yes I do. Let see, 20 mins to step my precious foot on that hi floor train.. lets see.. then add 40 mins (being super generous here because RTD has its head up its ass right now, this may go down to 30 in future; oh lets not even consider grandma with the 'rascal') to get to 25th and welton. At that point I can get in my little car if the wheels are still on it and the battery isn't taken. I'm looking at over an hour to get home.

Anyway, that's what reality is right now with this train. I hope to ride it in the future or when visiting with former urban geek friends downtown. On Friday, when supposedly Boy Wonder said it was running 'really super fantastic', it took me 1.5 hours to get downtown.

edit: I also forgot to mention there is no direct train to dtc from the 5 pts line so I need to trans to another train, so I can add 5 or 10 mins to my trip.

Also, if I can get it down to 45 mins I'll take the train. I think its a great investment that shouldn't be just for lesbians or jerks.

[DenverInfill]

Well, darn it, I think Joe should get a rebate on the RTD sales tax he pays. That's a travesty!!

[Front_Range_Guy]

I've wanted for some time to go to the roof of the garage at Lincoln Station and take some pictures. I finally got up there yesterday... it wasn't as cool as I thought it would be. This after my adventure of accidentally getting on E-470, finding out I couldn't escape the toll booth at Peoria, driving back up the ramp backwards to park in the grass and frantically search for quarters, which thankfully I found. I was prepared to found a new town and establish residency on that offramp. A $250.00 fine? Screw that. That would put me in the poor house. Do I look like someone who makes a living wage? I just think the signage should be clearer for those of us who are from out of town... I expected the toll booths to be on the actual roadway, not placed in a sneaky fashion on the offramps.

Anyway... I eventually went downtown and had several misadventures there too, I should have stayed in bed yesterday, but it was cool (if not a bit distracting) seeing the trains cruising along I-25 all the way through the city.

[bunt_q]

Poor Joe.

I can sympathize... honestly, I have never thought this line would do as well as people expected because of where it is... along the highway is never great, and when you look at the sheer distance to the tech center buildings, I have always suspected it'd be mostly for commuters to downtown, just like the other line. Park-n-Ride - Rail - Bus trips are too few... nobody wants to do that extra transfer. You'll get troopers who don't mind a 20 minute walk, but apart from that, it's just on the wrong dang side of the highway.

On the other hand, today is the first day since I started school that I am totally without car, so I am stoked :)

[EngiNerd]

In the future if you accidentally drive into one of those booths without change you can take a little envelope they have sitting next to the change bucket and mail in the change within a week or two. I had to do that several times when I first moved out to Saudi Aurora and did not have the express toll transponder yet.

The highway toll booth is further east from Peoria, and if you hit the toll booth then you owe $2.00 instead of $.75.

I no longer live out there though, I have moved into the Lincoln Station Lofts temporarily, too bad I work from home now. Still nice to jump up to Denver on the weekends using the LRT now.

[DenverInfill]

Seriously, I am sad for you Joe. It's worse enough having to work in the Tech Center when you were Downtown, only to have light rail not completely work for you given where you live and other logistics. But even though it might not be as convenient as driving, at least you know you've got transit as an option, particularly when we're due for a snowstorm or something.

[glowrock]

Well, my commute back from the Arapahoe Station to Cold Spring went mighty smoothly this afternoon. About a two minute walk to the station from my office, wait for a couple of minutes, about a 15 minute trip on the rails to I-25/Broadway, maybe wait 10 minutes, and then 20 minutes to 6th/Union. Overall, not too shabby! :banana:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Cirrus]

On the other hand, today is the first day since I started school that I am totally without carWe're proud of you :)

[Front_Range_Guy]

Posted by Bunt_q
On the other hand, today is the first day since I started school that I am totally without car, so I am stoked


Lucky bastard. Everytime I take a wrong turn or have a pedestrian run out in front of me, I despise driving a little more. When I move in September, I'm hoping to get a job and a condo or apartment within a 15 to 20 minute walk of the light rail so I almost never have to drive again! Of course, I'm not opposed to busses either.

I'm a little worried about finding something I can afford, thank goodness for these new lines, they've greatly increased my options.

[1Post2]

for the first time ever, I saw 40-50 people standing at union station waiting for the trains. needless to say, many of these people were former bus riders, but I still couldn't help grinning. (this was slightly off-peak, too. not by much, though). I'd be willing to bet that the increase in passengers was even more notable at 16th & stout/california, since those stops are busier and more central to downtown.

[glowrock]

It's official, I now have someone to lambast even MORE than Douglas Bruce right now... It's none other than Pam Schenck, that evil witch of a spokesman/manager for Park Meadows! Get a load of this commentary by Diane Carman... I'm sure you'll agree with me that Schenck will be spending an eternity trying to atone for her sins! :hell: Every possible place, her quotes just continue to make herself (and former mall management) look like absolute schmucks!

Aaron (Glowrock)

----------------------------------------------------------

diane carman | staff columnist
Light rail to mall? Bring a compass
By Diane Carman
Denver Post Staff Columnist
Article Last Updated:11/20/2006 09:04:22 PM MST

When I left the house at 7:45 Monday morning, I thought I was prepared. I had lots of change, good walking shoes. I had visited the trip planner on the RTD website to organize my itinerary. In anticipation of the busiest shopping day of the year on Friday, I figured giving the southeast light-rail line a test ride to Park Meadows mall would be a noble public service.

Oh, what a foolish peasant I was.

I took the No. 56 bus to the Yale light-rail station and, because I spent a minute or two looking around, I missed the southbound E train by 10 seconds.

No problem. The F came five minutes later and in no time I was going gaga over the mountain views. It was 8:21, and we were sailing. Traffic on the highway, meanwhile, was at a crawl.

I arrived at the County Line station in 14 minutes.

This is where my troubles began.

I stood on the platform looking at Nordstrom. To get there, I would have to cross the train tracks, climb a chain-link fence, drop 25 feet straight down onto the road, cross four lanes of traffic, scramble over a grassy berm and traverse the parking lot to the mall.

The fall alone would have killed me.

So I headed east on the pedestrian bridge over I-25 to the parking lot, where I asked two men standing next to a call-n-Ride van how to get to Park Meadows. "Get back on the train and go to the Lincoln Avenue station," one said.

Going a mile south to get across the street didn't make sense. I did it anyway.

At Lincoln I wandered around until I saw a bus arriving. I boarded the No. 465, which went south, then north, then east, round and round until I arrived a short walk from the mall. "So do I come back here to catch the bus to go back to the light-rail station?" I asked the driver. "You can, or you can walk to the County Line station right there," he said pointing to the platform.

I didn't have the heart to tell him he was mistaken. It was 9:08 a.m., and I was dying for coffee.

When it was time to venture back to the city, I was determined to get to the train on foot.

Park Meadows might as well have had a moat around it.

To reach the nearest light-rail station, I walked across the parking lot, ran across the two-lane circle drive inside the mall property, ran (faster) across the two-lane road outside the mall, followed the sidewalk until it ended, crossed newly planted grass under I-25, meandered along sidewalks and fields with traffic roaring by kicking up clouds of dust until I arrived at the County Line station, where I finally saw a couple of small but interesting signs.

One said "No pedestrian access to Park Meadows mall."

No joke.

The other showed an architect's rendering of a pedestrian bridge to the mall. "Coming spring 2008," it said.

Now I don't know whose idea it was to post that sign there, but the only logical response to it is hostility.

Back at the office, I called Scott Reed and Pam Schenck. Reed is from RTD and, near as I can tell, Schenck, general manager of Park Meadows, is from outer space.

Reed said the mess at Park Meadows resulted because "the previous owners of the mall simply refused to let us provide access" to light rail. An agreement with the new owners, General Growth Properties Inc., was signed about two months ago to allow RTD to build a $4.5 million pedestrian bridge to the shopping center.

"We've been trying for six years to get this done," Reed said. "It's been very frustrating to us."

Schenck was shocked, SHOCKED to hear this.

"People like to say things that are not 100 percent accurate," she said. "We have tried for more than six years to get this accomplished. It's a very complicated issue."

While Schenck insists she has welcomed RTD's attempts to provide transit to Park Meadows, she's had a funny way of communicating that.

In 1996, when RTD offered to provide bus service if the mall would agree to be annexed to RTD, she said: "We don't know whether we want another six-tenths of a percent sales tax."

In 1999, when RTD proposed building a garage to provide parking for light-rail commuters at the mall as well as additional parking for shoppers, Schenck's response was: "We are a retail shopping center. We are not an interim parking lot."

In 2000, when the RTD board voted unanimously to build light rail without pedestrian access to the mall because Park Meadows still would not agree to be annexed, Schenck said the mall didn't want to join RTD until the 1.4 percent sales tax to pay for access roads to the mall expired.

Park Meadows finally joined RTD in 2004 after light-rail construction was well underway. The change of heart occurred after Lone Tree voted to join, effectively making the mall an island of intransigence in the district.

On Monday I asked Schenck if Park Meadows had any plans to provide shuttle service for workers and customers trying to access light rail without getting killed.

"We are a shopping center, not a service provider," she sniffed.

The message was clear:

Let them eat dust.

Diane Carman's column appears Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday. She can be reached at 303-954-1489 or dcarman@denverpost.com.

--------------------------------------------

[Cirrus]

"We are a shopping center, not a service provider," she sniffed.Presumably she intends to unscrew the lights, cut off the water, and remove the bathrooms, since those too are services and Park Meadows is not a service provider.

[EngiNerd]

So what can she say about Flatirons Mall then? They are a shopping center but they offer a shuttle service to navigate around the different shopping areas there. I guess they must be just plain misguided then since they should not be a service provider.

That ladies comments are just plain ignorant.

[joeindt]

Didn't park meadows have the option to have a bridge built, but then balked when they had to chip in some money for it?

Thanks Ken, but on snow days I can just work from home, the ultimate transit option. :banana:

[glowrock]

As I said, that woman's a schmuck...

At any rate, I do believe RTD has officially converted one car-driver to a transit commuter... This morning's trip from my apartment to my office was only about 40 minutes, which I was VERY pleased with! Thank god I live two blocks from Cold Spring P&R, and work only two blocks from Arapahoe Village Station! :banana:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[blm3034L!fe]

As I said, that woman's a schmuck...

At any rate, I do believe RTD has officially converted one car-driver to a transit commuter... This morning's trip from my apartment to my office was only about 40 minutes, which I was VERY pleased with! Thank god I live two blocks from Cold Spring P&R, and work only two blocks from Arapahoe Village Station! :banana:

Aaron (Glowrock)

Hey Aaron/GlowRock how is the ridership? Is that staying strong? Or now that it's up and running is it tapering off now?

[glowrock]

Blm, it wasn't TOO busy for me southbound this morning. The majority of the ridership is northbound in the morning, southbound in the afternoon, it appears... However, given that this is essentially a holiday-week, I'd say next week will be a much better indication of ridership.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bunt_q]

We're proud of you :)

smart ass, you should be ;) my evening downtown-DU-downtown trip went off beautifully. It adds 20 minutes basically, but most of that counts as exercise time. My summary:

Downtown-DU:

Driving - 40 min.
vs.
Walk - 10 min.
LRT - 25 min.
Walk - 10 min.

DU-Downtown:

Driving - 25 min.
vs.
Walk - 10 min.
LRT - 20 min.
Walk - 10 min.

(yes, in theory the train trip should be the same length, but it's not. i blame that on the high-floor LRVs)

[glowrock]

Damn, Brent and I BOTH converting to LRT for our commutes! Have the pole suddenly switched polarity??? :haha:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[FillIn' Fine]

Wow. Took the light rail this am from Lincoln to Colo Blvd. 10 minute walk to my office. First time in 12 years of working at Colo Blvd. I didn't have a car. Great feeling. Tomorrow I go all out and ride my bike to the Lincoln Station and then bring it on the train. A totally carless day, weather permitting.

[joeindt]

Damn it you guys, are you trying to make me feel bad! :(

[glowrock]

Damn right, Joe! :haha:

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bcp]

if 5pts went to DOUBLE track and extended to 40/40 then you would have a ONE seat ride down to tech center...

[denverryan]

The reason the future West line LRT doesn't stop at Colorado Mills mall is for similar reasons -- Ken Stevenson didn't want a bunch of people parking at his mall and riding light rail.

I think these mall people should all realize what WalMart realized when they allowed RVs to stay in the parking lot overnight. The people inevitably shop there, idiots! Yeesh. :koko:

[bunt_q]

I think these mall people should all realize what WalMart realized when they allowed RVs to stay in the parking lot overnight. The people inevitably shop there, idiots! Yeesh. :koko:

Excellent point. As stoic, stubborn, and obnoxious as that Park Meadows manager woman they keep interviewing is, I think they are kicking themselves now. Read Diane Carmen's column today (I think it was hers)... saying she wasn't sure that lady was from this planet... hilarious

[glowrock]

Hey Brent, I just posted that article about 10 replies above this! :)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[J Church]

But Aaron, don't you need your truck to run errands during the day or something?

[FillIn' Fine]

Excellent point. As stoic, stubborn, and obnoxious as that Park Meadows manager woman they keep interviewing is, I think they are kicking themselves now. Read Diane Carmen's column today (I think it was hers)... saying she wasn't sure that lady was from this planet... hilarious

Not to defend Park Meadows in any way, BUT ... I can understand why they would not want to turn their parking lot into an RTD lot. Parking and traffif there can be bad enought, eps. around the holidays.

Now, for the really brigh idea of the day - how about RTD and Park meadows make the mall access by way of an elevated walkway that goes right into Nordstroms 2nd floor. It would pretty much keep people from parking at the mall for the sole reason to use the light rail AND would dump shoppers right into a store. Also, morning commuters would NOT use the mall parking lot becuase the mall would be closed and there woul dbe no access.

[FillIn' Fine]

Not to defend Park Meadows in any way, BUT ... I can understand why they would not want to turn their parking lot into an RTD lot. Parking and traffif there can be bad enought, eps. around the holidays.

Now, for the really brigh idea of the day - how about RTD and Park meadows make the mall access by way of an elevated walkway that goes right into Nordstroms 2nd floor. It would pretty much keep people from parking at the mall for the sole reason to use the light rail AND would dump shoppers right into a store. Also, morning commuters would NOT use the mall parking lot becuase the mall would be closed and there woul dbe no access.

The second bright idea of the day would be to get me a proof reader!

[bunt_q]

Not to defend Park Meadows in any way, BUT ... I can understand why they would not want to turn their parking lot into an RTD lot. Parking and traffif there can be bad enought, eps. around the holidays.

Now, for the really brigh idea of the day - how about RTD and Park meadows make the mall access by way of an elevated walkway that goes right into Nordstroms 2nd floor. It would pretty much keep people from parking at the mall for the sole reason to use the light rail AND would dump shoppers right into a store. Also, morning commuters would NOT use the mall parking lot becuase the mall would be closed and there woul dbe no access.

THAT *WAS* THE ORIGINAL PLAN, EXCEPT THAT RTD ALSO PROVIDED A GINORMOUS PARKING GARAGE, BIG ENOUGH TO PROVIDE AMPLE LIGHT RAIL PARKING *AND* ADDITIONAL MALL PATRON PARKING TO REPLACE WHAT WAS LOST AND THEN SOME. grr... look at the eis. there is no defending park meadows, they were cockbites about the whole thing.

except you pretty much have to provide a way down from the bridge... it's a bad idea not to have that for many reasons... but even so, the parking story was just a ruse. their real concerns were with the "transit types" entering their mall. RTD provided an ungodly amount of parking for them.

[Ribeye]

The only transit types they could possibly fear is that one guy sitting on the bench in Ken's pics... he looked troublesome. But seriously, Denver has "transit types?" Wow... so exciting!

[wong21fr]

Got to love mall mentality, in Park Meadows case, that the only way consumers should be able to get to their venue is via personal automobile.

I despise trying to drive into that shopping area. It's probably a reflection of my driving skills, but it seems that I almost always encounter a near-accident.

[bunt_q]

Sure. Take the D line after dark. Horrible comment to make, but imagine if you were the Park Meadows hose beast...

I could be wrong, but really, RTD did an awful lot to alleviate the parking fears... what exactly has changed now I wonder? Now they are getting the connection *without* the garage. Because *that* makes sense...

[Cirrus]

I really don't get it. It's lnot ike these malls aren't owned by big national corporations that are well aware of highly successful transit connections in other places.

There's no excuse for nonsense like this. Even these folks should know better.

[EngiNerd]

Got to love mall mentality, in Park Meadows case, that the only way consumers should be able to get to their venue is via personal automobile.

I despise trying to drive into that shopping area. It's probably a reflection of my driving skills, but it seems that I almost always encounter a near-accident.

Its most likely not your driving skills. That parking lot (and the whole area for that matter) has a pretty horrible layout in my opinion. Too many roads crossing each other without enough signage to let you know where you are going. Add to that crazy soccer moms in their SUV's and its an accident waiting to happen. I used to live up near Flatirons Mall, and that one was much easier to get around.

[glowrock]

But Aaron, don't you need your truck to run errands during the day or something?

:D

Not anymore, Steve... Now everything I need is simply me, myself, and I (and possibly my laptop)... Haha

Aaron (Glowrock)

[J Church]

And effective transit. Doh!

[FillIn' Fine]

THAT *WAS* THE ORIGINAL PLAN, EXCEPT THAT RTD ALSO PROVIDED A GINORMOUS PARKING GARAGE, BIG ENOUGH TO PROVIDE AMPLE LIGHT RAIL PARKING *AND* ADDITIONAL MALL PATRON PARKING TO REPLACE WHAT WAS LOST AND THEN SOME. grr... look at the eis. there is no defending park meadows, they were cockbites about the whole thing.

except you pretty much have to provide a way down from the bridge... it's a bad idea not to have that for many reasons... but even so, the parking story was just a ruse. their real concerns were with the "transit types" entering their mall. RTD provided an ungodly amount of parking for them.

Allright, I'm done defending Park Meadows. I didn't realize that my 'bright idea' had already been passed by the dimwits running the mall. I'll throw them back to the wolves. Happy eating, buntie.

[bunt_q]

Damn right ;) I really did not shop there - not even once - from the time they told us to shove it to the time they finally joined the district. Now I will shop there on limited occasions, but since I hate driving at malls (and as folks have said, this one's especially bad), it is a rare occasion indeed.

[glowrock]

With regards to the article in this morning's Rocky concerning the commute times from I-25/Lincoln to the World Trade Center downtown via car and via transit, here's the letter to the editor I just fired off... For those who haven't seen it, it describes two people's commutes from Highlands Ranch to Downtown, one via car, one via the new LRT. Of course, it fails to acknowledge that, this week being a holiday week with Thanksgiving, many people are taking vacations, and thus freeway traffic is much lighter than average right now. Of course the Rocky loves this, because it makes LRT look very slow compared with driving a car. Let's face it, the Rocky loves to smash public transit any time it has a chance! :hell:

Aaron (Glowrock)

-------------------------------------------------------

Dear Editor,


I read with some dismay your article describing the commutes via LRT and via personal car in the Tuesday edition of the Rocky "Car commute is faster; light-rail trip smoother". In the article, the personal car commute is shown as being only 36 minutes long, while the transit commute is 1 hour. What was never mentioned, however, is that this is on a holiday week, when freeway traffic is flowing considerably smoother than normal, because so many workers are on vacation. I suggest making the same comparison some time next week, when traffic levels are more typical, and then seeing what the time differences really are.

I feel that your choice of using the first Monday of the system's opening to make this comparison was simply unfair, because of the holiday period we're currenty in. Making such comparisons during a holiday week introduces entirely too much bias into the equation.

Aaron Rever
Lakewood

----------------------------------------------

[bcp]

aaron is officially a transit-urban-antiparking junkie.

welcome

[J Church]

... to the dark side. Muwaha.

[twellsie]

The one time somebody went out of their way to strike up a conversation with me on the light rail over the weekend is when we stopped at Park Meadows within spitting distance of Nordstrom. An astute older lady looked at me incredulously and asked "How do you get to the mall!?"

"You don't" I replied.

She responded with some unusual profanity and references toward the mall management that I'd rather not type out.

[pablosan]

Short-term, there will be many nuances to deal with. Long-term, many of those nuances will be a thing of the past. As many TODs mature and grow, the full benefits of Light Rail will be realized. Yes, today it may be faster to drive, but ten years from now we may be singing to a different tune.

[twellsie]

With regards to the article in this morning's Rocky concerning the commute times from I-25/Lincoln to the World Trade Center downtown via car and via transit, here's the letter to the editor I just fired off... For those who haven't seen it, it describes two people's commutes from Highlands Ranch to Downtown, one via car, one via the new LRT. Of course, it fails to acknowledge that, this week being a holiday week with Thanksgiving, many people are taking vacations, and thus freeway traffic is much lighter than average right now. Of course the Rocky loves this, because it makes LRT look very slow compared with driving a car. Let's face it, the Rocky loves to smash public transit any time it has a chance! :hell:

Aaron (Glowrock)

-------------------------------------------------------

Dear Editor,


I read with some dismay your article describing the commutes via LRT and via personal car in the Tuesday edition of the Rocky "Car commute is faster; light-rail trip smoother". In the article, the personal car commute is shown as being only 36 minutes long, while the transit commute is 1 hour. What was never mentioned, however, is that this is on a holiday week, when freeway traffic is flowing considerably smoother than normal, because so many workers are on vacation. I suggest making the same comparison some time next week, when traffic levels are more typical, and then seeing what the time differences really are.

I feel that your choice of using the first Monday of the system's opening to make this comparison was simply unfair, because of the holiday period we're currenty in. Making such comparisons during a holiday week introduces entirely too much bias into the equation.

Aaron Rever
Lakewood

----------------------------------------------

Not to mention that advocating car usage:

1. is lazy
2. advocates the funding of terrorism (arguably a form of treason)
3. advocates the destruction of the environment
4. is lazy. get off your fucking ass.

[denverryan]

"Yes, today it may be faster to drive, but ten years from now we may be singing to a different tune"

^exactly... we did expand the highway too, after all.

[bcp]

hopefully, we'll give up on further expansion of the SE section of i-25. expansion of the central section is comign soon, and after that, ideally no more.

[glowrock]

aaron is officially a transit-urban-antiparking junkie.

welcome

Don't go that far YET, Bryan! :haha:

Seriously though, I'll probably end up switching off between transit and driving to and from work every once and a while... While driving is faster in the morning, it's slower in the afternoon, but sometimes I've got other places to go after work other than home... ;)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Cirrus]

You're not fooling anyone. No you don't.

:)

[joeindt]

Don't go that far YET, Bryan! :haha:

Seriously though, I'll probably end up switching off between transit and driving to and from work every once and a while... While driving is faster in the morning, it's slower in the afternoon, but sometimes I've got other places to go after work other than home... ;)

Aaron (Glowrock)

This is where someone tears off your mask and says, this isn't aaron!