[sabino86]

Well it's not like the MARTA doesn't go to places and doesn't have a lot more room. I have never counted by there is probably something like 50 stations or thereabouts.

The thing is, a whole mess of them have never been built up at all so it's not even close to running out of room. You could add onto the ATL for 100 years along the MARTA and you'd still have plenty. Yes that north line is getting pretty busy around the Perimeter and midtown and whatnot, but go out on any of those other lines and there are a million places to build up. Why not use this big old system we've got and get it making money and so forth and when it's done then look into spending umpteen billion more dollars on more lines. Seems like that would be the smart way to go at it.

http://images.nycsubway.org/maps/atlantamap-mod.gif

Even just finishing out the 1971 referendum plan shown above would go a long way too...

[dante2308]

That yellow line seems rather wasteful.

[sabino86]

That yellow line seems rather wasteful.

That would be the never-built Thomasville Busway that was suppoed to follow Moreland Avenue. In addition, the current North Line was also supposed to be a busway until Charlie Loudermilk (as part of the MARTA board) proposed the heavy-rail version in 1986.

[cybele]

Well you take a lot of these stations, many of them is way underbuilt, nothing even close to your high density urban walkability and such and no tall buildings whatsoever to speak of. Why they never did anything with them who knows. But you could add on millions of square feet and shops and cafes and whatnot and bike paths all around them and such and all the stuff transit is supposed to create, but no.

Most cities would give their eye teeth to have something like that south line or that west line alone, so why not take advantage of all that. You'd have 50 0r 75 years worth of building right there?

That's what I'm saying, the MARTA has been around for 40 years or whatever and nobody has even come close to using it for what it's worth. Build all that up and then worry about spending umpteen billions on new high speed light rail and such but why do the new when you've got a ton of it already that has never been touched.

[dante2308]

Even just finishing out the 1971 referendum plan shown above would go a long way too...

You know, it doesn't look like too many stops are left to go. Emory would be immediately useful. I'm not sure about Northside Dr. though. Waffle House isn't that good.

[SteveD]

Owning two homes on either side of Moreland Ave south of I-20 as I do, I'm curious what is (or was) meant by "busway". I did a quick search on "Thomasville Busway" and found several references to it, but nothing actually describing what it would have consisted of. Does this simply mean "a lot of buses" or would there have been some sort of dedicated lane or right-of-way?

Anyone know? Or point me to some reference material?

[WestsideATL]

Sabino86 may know better than me...

My guess is that back then, several cities were considering busway projects. Los Angeles built lanes on the interstate that were eventually converted to HOV lanes. Pittsburgh and Miami built new bus-only corridors. Since there weren't any freeways proposed for the Moreland Ave area, I'd imagine it was supposed to be a dedicated bus-only facility.

[BlindFatSnake]

Well you take a lot of these stations, many of them is way underbuilt, nothing even close to your high density urban walkability and such and no tall buildings whatsoever to speak of. Why they never did anything with them who knows. But you could add on millions of square feet and shops and cafes and whatnot and bike paths all around them and such and all the stuff transit is supposed to create, but no.
Build all that up and then worry about spending umpteen billions on new high speed light rail and such but why do the new when you've got a ton of it already that has never been touched.

BellSouth (now A&T) didn't want to build corporate offices near I-20 or south of the North Avenue station when the company was deciding to consolidate 100 local offices. BellSouth (a company I worked with for 20+ years) decided to consolidate along the North line by building office buildings near its headquarters building on West Peachtree street near North Avenue; at Lindbergh Center (2 office buildings); at the Lenox Station (3 buildings), which required a BellSouth shuttle bus to those buildings; A huge parking garage at the Doraville station.

When many of BellSouth's African-American employees questioned our company about building parking garages and corporate offices along the East/West lines, we were met with oppostion. The mantra was: Building in those areas were not cost effective. But, in reality, corporate offices get built were executives want to live. They don't want to have a long commute - hence all the development along GA 400 from Sandy Springs to Alpharetta.

Cybele, that should answer your question about why the East/West (green/blue) lines have miles of underutilized swaths of vacant land surrounding MARTA stations. Got it? :sly:

[Pessimistic Observer]

Is it allways better to get nothing done as apposed to the wrong thing?
Are there no exceptions?
apparently thats the way politics in georgia work
Transportation funding bill may fail again (http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/03/22/story3.html?b=1269230400^3054971)

[cybele]

The mantra was: Building in those areas were not cost effective. But, in reality, corporate offices get built were executives want to live. They don't want to have a long commute - hence all the development along GA 400 from Sandy Springs to Alpharetta.

Cybele, that should answer your question about why the East/West (green/blue) lines have miles of underutilized swaths of vacant land surrounding MARTA stations. Got it? :sly:

Well it seems like if they got built up into urban walkable areas the big dogs might want to move back in. It doesn't make much sense not to use up all those huge areas around the high speed transit line that has been sitting there bought and paid for for 30 or 40 years.

Let the ATL build up around these transit stations like they do in Washington DC and New York City and such. We could do that for the next 100 years using what we have already got and we wouldn't have to spend another penny on new lines. The GDOT couldn't stop that and the city would get rich just using what it's already got.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Well it seems like if they got built up into urban walkable areas the big dogs might want to move back in. It doesn't make much sense not to use up all those huge areas around the high speed transit line that has been sitting there bought and paid for for 30 or 40 years.

Let the ATL build up around these transit stations like they do in Washington DC and New York City and such. We could do that for the next 100 years using what we have already got and we wouldn't have to spend another penny on new lines. The GDOT couldn't stop that and the city would get rich just using what it's already got.

interesting idea marta should start its own development firm of course it may be to late seeing as marta is going to go bankrupt

[WestsideATL]

interesting idea marta should start its own development firm of course it may be to late seeing as marta is going to go bankrupt

FYI - MARTA has a TOD (transit-oriented development) group that does nothing but chase developers around trying to get them interested in doing joint development projects on station area parking lots. They haven't been very successful so they decided to use MARTA's own money to finance TOD at Lindbergh Center. While that project has certainly sparked a small renaissance in the area, revitalizing Sidney Marcus and Lindbergh east of Piedmont, MARTA has lost, and is continuing to lose, money on their investment.

[cybele]

FYI - MARTA has a TOD (transit-oriented development) group that does nothing but chase developers around trying to get them interested in doing joint development projects on station area parking lots.

I have heard of it and there is a link to it on their website. http://www.itsmarta.com/TOD.aspx

However, it seems like they just work in certain places which is mighty peculiar. They could just as easy go south, east and west and build up all kinds of huge urban walkable situations. Why not, since you have already got this world class transit thing, just sitting there bought and paid for plus the buses and whatnot that go with it. You wouldn't have to mess around trying to scratch up money for more lines when you've already got miles and miles of them sitting there staring you in the face?

The other thing is if the transit we've already got isn't built up and being used usefully and so forth, how do you convince the government or whoever to give you umpteen billions more?

[BlindFatSnake]

Cybele,

Your rampling thought process make me dizzy. I can't tell whether or not you understand your own written words... It's baffles me to try to understand what your point is.

It's like trying to get from point A to point B on a meandering, broken path when a visible, straight line (without any obstables) would be the path most logical people would take.

It's like being taught physics by a professor who's accent is sooo jarring that the students can't bare to hear his lecture, but they must in order to obtain a degree. I'm more frustrated than angry.

I wanna understand you, but we're on two different planets, or maybe in previous lives one of us was a dog and the other a cat. lol

[dante2308]

BFS. Let me simplify it for you. Cybele wants to use our existing transit to develop TODs.

Let me simplify it again. Instead of transit built near people, build things near transit.

[cybele]

Well, that's about right. We've got this big old deluxe transit system sitting here which any other city would give its eye teeth to have and which has been bought built and paid for 30 or 40 years ago even though it still beats the tar out of most of these wimply little streetcar things. And all around a lot of these stations there is acres and maybe even miles of land you could redevelop into urban walkabouts. Yes, in some cases you would have to move some people but in many cases, no.

So all I'm saying is use what you got, especially in lean times where there is no more money and the working man is already paying about all he can carry, if he's even got a job anymore.

What it sounds to me like is there a bunch of people saying it's not just transit we want, because we already have a mess of it which is way underused. It sounds to me like they are saying, "No, sir, what we want is more transit and such where WE want it (which is mostly up around where they live), we don't like where it already is." Two entirely different things.

[sabino86]

Concentrating development around MARTA stations has been the idea since the opening of the rail system, it's just that local governments didn't give a shit enough to follow through on it...

[dante2308]

Concentrating development around MARTA stations has been the idea since the opening of the rail system, it's just that local governments didn't give a shit enough to follow through on it...

Shouldn't businesses take over in that respect? Anyway no one is going to develop a TOD until the housing market recovers. There is just no profit in building anymore.

[BlindFatSnake]

BFS. Let me simplify it for you. Cybele wants to use our existing transit to develop TODs.

Let me simplify it again. Instead of transit built near people, build things near transit.

Oooh that makes perfect sense, now that it's been simplifed by Dante the wannabe... kudos to yoooouuuu!!!

Let's get something straight: Cybele and others can want DEVELOPERS to build shit all around MARTA stations until y'all are blue in the face. The market dictates when and where shit will be built. Right now the market is as dead as a doorknob. And it's really dead in black neighborhoods. Hint, look at the foreclosure rates along the east/west corridors... Shut your lips, you're slurring your words and slobbing at the mouth.
Ain't a dang thang getting built in these depressed areas no time soon.

Now look on the northern end of MARTA. Foreclosures and auctions of hotels and condos as far as the eye can see. Again, ain't a dang thang getting built until these condos and hotels are POPPING with people and businesses...

But people are moving into metro Atlanta, so I say built the line where the darn people are and where the darn people are projected to be. Besides, MARTA just passed a hurdle to expand into other counties. But, that hurdle could always come tumbling down in a state that is bent on killing the backbone of Atlanta's heavy rail system.

Let's examine the rail stations where urban density is rising. And, let's agree that all the stations on the red line north of Garnett station have achieved urban density from Five Points to Dunwoody. Sandy Springs and North Springs are slowly getting there.

Now, look at all the other stations and compare the immediate built-up environment with those on the northside. Outside of the GWCC/Phillips Arena, the Georgia State and the Decatur stations, none come even close to approaching the development around Sandy Springs or North Springs, let alone Lindbergh.
Anyone care to explain why? I can think of a reason, but I'll stand down so as not to point out the MFing White Elephant in the room... :banana:

[cybele]

Let's get something straight: Cybele and others can want DEVELOPERS to build shit all around MARTA stations until y'all are blue in the face. The market dictates when and where shit will be built. Right now the market is as dead as a doorknob. And it's really dead in black neighborhoods. Hint, look at the foreclosure rates along the east/west corridors... Shut your lips, you're slurring your words and slobbing at the mouth.
Ain't a dang thang getting built in these depressed areas no time soon.

Well some of them didn't get built up in the fat times either. According to the MARTA they've got this whole crew running around trying to get the urban walkabouts built at their stations and you have to figure the government would set these developers up with all kinds of TADs and whatnot too. Why not who knows?

[shivtim]

Besides the majorly built up stations that have been mentioned, there are small bits here and there - like the recently built condos and LCI improvements on the west side of Chamblee station. Still a long way to go, but it's getting there. The densification and improvements around Decatur station would be a good model to try to duplicate at East Lake, which is the least-utilized MARTA station.

It will be a long time before any station west of five points has any type of development, as a result of a multitude of factors including the economy, racism, classism, and crime in those areas.

[shivtim]

“HOW DID WE GET HERE?”
Lyle V. Harris, chief spokesman for MARTA, uses 14 points to explain how MARTA got into its current crisis:

1. “MARTA was originally planned to be supported by five counties; however, only two counties, including the City of Atlanta, ever provided support.”
2. “The 50/50 mandated split of sales tax revenues between operating and capital allocation restricts managerial ingenuity and stewardship. No other comparable transit system in North America … has such a restriction.” [He is referring to the split required by state law.]
3. “Loss of federal funding for operations since the last decade amounts to over $500 million.”
4. “Subsequent to the 1996 Olympics, MARTA needed to subsidize its operating budget with the utilization of reserves.”
5. MARTA implemented a “15 cent fare for seven years to gain voter support for a transit referendum.”
6. “Policy decisions over the years regarding when to increase fare.”
7. “No fare increases since 2001, as the recent fare increase was implemented in October of 2009. Typically, fare increases occur every two to four years.”
8. “Lack of recognition to properly discern the fiscal magnitude and scope of maintaining a ‘state of good repair’, given the transition from an expanding system to a mature and ever-aging system.”
9. “Unfunded mandates, particularly in the realm of paratransit service, which has been experiencing double-digit growth rates each year for several years.”
10. “Increase of operating costs due to system expansion of the north line.”
11. “Annual increases to the cost of doing business [sharp fuel increases, supplies, labor, and benefits].”
12. “The increase of passengers tripled over the last decade.”
13. “Dedicated source of revenue in the amount of at least $50 million was anticipated from new local sources. Several attempts were made to secure legislative relief, but to no avail.”
14. “Declining rate of sales tax growth and subsequent decline.”

[atlantaguy]

Owning two homes on either side of Moreland Ave south of I-20 as I do, I'm curious what is (or was) meant by "busway". I did a quick search on "Thomasville Busway" and found several references to it, but nothing actually describing what it would have consisted of. Does this simply mean "a lot of buses" or would there have been some sort of dedicated lane or right-of-way?

Anyone know? Or point me to some reference material?

Steve - It was propsed to run in the median of the ill-fated I-485. I-485 was the continuation of what we now know as GA 400. It was originally supposed to continue South, tying in with I-675's present terminus at the Perimeter. It also included plans for a spaghetti junction sized interchange right about on top of where the Carter Center stands today. This was the road that fired up the entire Eastside of town back in the day......

The proposed tunnel highway that Oxendine seems to love is basically the same route.:hell:

[dante2308]

Oooh that makes perfect sense, now that it's been simplifed by Dante the wannabe...

First off, you said you didn't understand it. I didn't see what was too hard to understand, but there you go.

I don't want to be something. My life aspiration isn't to be a "negro" and you certainly wouldn't qualify as a life coach so get off it and drop it.

To answer your question, a TOD takes high land values, high quality communities and affluent citizens. Where that exists, TODs exists. Businesses pop up where they make the most money.

[SteveD]

Thanks, Atlantaguy...of course I'm familiar with the former proposed link between I-675 and GA 400, and Oxendine's grand tunnel pronouncements. I didn't realize that MARTA's busway would have been contingent upon either of those being constructed.

[BlindFatSnake]

Dante, you're cool with me. For what it's worth, I was all in your corner when you, Cybele and Fiorenza were having the longest-running diatribe in Skyscraper history. Your point of view was far superior to the conservatives, but like others, I was drawn to the debate like a country dog is drawn to chasing tires on moving cars... I couldn't help myself.

Calling you a wannabe was just my way of throwing some shit through the back of a fan - all for laughs - nothing serious. I won't sling mud your way again. Besides, you're a westsiders - that's got to be worth something on these contentious boards.

I will reserve my venom for Fiorenza, and give Cybele a pass - I just don't have the energy to read a book backwards...:notacrook:

[cabasse]

Besides the majorly built up stations that have been mentioned, there are small bits here and there - like the recently built condos and LCI improvements on the west side of Chamblee station. Still a long way to go, but it's getting there. The densification and improvements around Decatur station would be a good model to try to duplicate at East Lake, which is the least-utilized MARTA station.

It will be a long time before any station west of five points has any type of development, as a result of a multitude of factors including the economy, racism, classism, and crime in those areas.

one interesting exception is westside village, built practically atop one of marta's subway stations.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2763/4460725118_f63e7222e9_o.jpg

[delarosa]

http://images.nycsubway.org/maps/atlantamap-mod.gif

Even just finishing out the 1971 referendum plan shown above would go a long way too...

Irrespective of costs and feasibility, seems like an extension to Emory would see a lot of use. Though at the end of the day, maybe some kind of streetcar traversing over to Candler or Inman Park MARTA would be more feasible and relevant for the area. Mostly fantasy, but if only the interceding neighborhoods/roads were configured only slightly differently as something running from Emory, through VaHighlands onto Virginia and over to 10th/Monroe would have been useful and impact some of the congestion at various points through the surrounding neighborhoods.

A Brookwood/Northside extension seems much less critical in light of a Beltline that should afford a quick hop up to a MARTA connection at Lindbergh.

[echinatl]

one interesting exception is westside village, built practically atop one of marta's subway stations.


Nice, I always wondered if it would be possible to build office towers, hotels, condo's right ontop of the stations? They look like war bunkers and I would think they could support a lot of weight.

[cybele]

Nice, I always wondered if it would be possible to build office towers, hotels, condo's right ontop of the stations? They look like war bunkers and I would think they could support a lot of weight.

Well there's a office tower setting on top of the Lenox station but I don't know what it is.

[sabino86]

Well there's a office tower setting on top of the Lenox station but I don't know what it is.

Resurgens Plaza

[smArTaLlone]

Atlanta Business Chronicle (http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/03/22/daily68.html)

Top leaders in the General Assembly have reappointed a 2009 legislative conference committee on transportation funding as a fallback position in case lawmakers fail to pass a funding bill introduced this year.

If it becomes necessary, three members of the Georgia House of Representatives and three from the state Senate would take up a constitutional amendment proposed last year allowing voters in metro Atlanta to decide whether to raise sales taxes in the region by a penny to pay for needed highway and transit improvements.

The legislation went up in smoke on the final night of the 2009 legislative session when the conferees fail to reach an agreement.

While this year’s bill is backed by Gov. Sonny Perdue, it has become bogged down by a a huge number of amendments and a gubernatorial veto threat from the governor over a change made by the House Transportation Committee.

The measure is not on the House floor agenda for Friday, this year’s deadline for bills to pass a legislative chamber.

If it isn’t added late Friday as a supplemental agenda item, the conference committee would take up transportation funding during the waning days of the session, House Majority Leader Jerry Keen said Thursday.

“Transportation is going to be addressed before we leave this year,” said Keen, R-St. Simons Island, who would serve as one of the House conferees.

Ten legislative days remain in the 40-day session after Friday’s Crossover Day.

[WestsideATL]

I'll believe it when I see it. Best case scenario - the legislature will pass a bill that might actually get through a referendum (which means including the local opt-out) and Sonny will veto it.

[cybele]

Well I heard from a couple of those fellas down at the capitol there's a pretty good chance of getting the thing through with the regional situations and what-have-you.

[cybele]

Well, what's going to happen when the C-Tran shuts down tomorrow. The newspaper says it hauls 2.1 million people a year and most of them don't have cars to go back on? I guess they will have to switch over to the GRTA bus if they can, wherever it goes. A MARTA train down that way would have come in mighty handy but I can't remember why we didn't do it back when we were building the dang thing.

C-Tran reaches end of the line (http://www.ajc.com/news/clayton/c-tran-reaches-end-416424.html?cxtype=rss_news)

Budgets across the state and nation are forcing hard choices. While the demise of C-Tran is extreme, it brings into focus a long-simmering tension over how the government should fund transportation and what kind.

That's the thing with transit, everybody says it would be great but who's got the money for it?

[Pessimistic Observer]

Well, what's going to happen when the C-Tran shuts down tomorrow. The newspaper says it hauls 2.1 million people a year and most of them don't have cars to go back on? I guess they will have to switch over to the GRTA bus if they can, wherever it goes. A MARTA train down that way would have come in mighty handy but I can't remember why we didn't do it back when we were building the dang thing.



That's the thing with transit, everybody says it would be great but who's got the money for it?

clayton doesnt pay for marta but that might change the state senate, the house portion at least, passed a bill to allow the clayton county commision to vote on whether clayton can add itself to marta and pay the 1 cent sales tax with dekalb and fulton
http://blogs.ajc.com/gold-dome-live/2010/03/26/house-would-let-c-tran-join-marta/?cxntfid=blogs_gold_dome_live

[WestsideATL]

http://www.ajc.com/news/clayton/c-tran-reaches-end-416424.html?cxtype=rss_news_128746

Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like the Clayton Co. commission, with the exception of Eldrin Bell, is at all interested in having the county join MARTA. I don't know if the sentiment from the commission is truly anti-MARTA or if it's just anti-Eldrin Bell. He's definitely not well liked by the other commissioners.

Recall that Bell was good friends with then MARTA board chairman Michael Walls, and together they orchestrated C-Tran's shift from a private contractor back over to MARTA. I'm purely speculating, but based on what I've seen in the news, things have gotten so petty in Clayton Co. that I could see the commission dropping service to thousands just to satisfy some sort of personal vendetta.

[cybele]

Well can Clayton put a 1¢ tax on something and pay for the thing itself. How about billboards, it seems like every time I go down Tara Boulevard there's a million of them?

[BlindFatSnake]

http://www.ajc.com/news/clayton/c-tran-reaches-end-416424.html?cxtype=rss_news_128746

Recall that Bell was good friends with then MARTA board chairman Michael Walls, and together they orchestrated C-Tran's shift from a private contractor back over to MARTA. I'm purely speculating, but based on what I've seen in the news, things have gotten so petty in Clayton Co. that I could see the commission dropping service to thousands just to satisfy some sort of personal vendetta.

You could be right... Imagine for a moment that Clayton County commissioners are playing hard ball with the state. The commissioners allow C-tran to disband, displacing thousands of riders. Then, the state decides to allow the citizens of Clayton to vote on expanding MARTA into the county...

Now, that's polticking... In this crazy state, I can see it being a backdoor way for the Clayton County commission to usurp the state government and allow MARTA to extend the red line deep into Clayton county, maybe all the way to Jonesboro (where the state failed to put a federally-funded communter line). :banana:

[delarosa]

Say what you will of transportation alternatives, it's clear that the status quo isn't the best PR strategy.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/04/01/infrastructure.rebuild/index.html?hpt=C1

[cybele]

Well I bet most of the folks in Charlotte still drive to get around, at least they did the last time I was up there. However, you are right about the PR thing, it sounds good to talk about everybody buzzing around on their fancy new high speed light rail. According to the Wikipedia they have 20,000 passengers a day whereas inasmuch as the MARTA has 259,000.

[WestsideATL]

http://www.itsmarta.com/memorial-drive-arterial-brt.aspx

I had asked previously if anyone knew where this project stood. According to an update on 4/1 (perhaps it was an April Fools prank?), revenue service is scheduled to begin this fall. It's good news to see something moving forward at MARTA but for the life of me I don't know how the Authority can roll out a new service like this when it's in the midst of serious cutbacks. In better times, I'd be fine with the project, but I've got several friends in neighborhoods that are facing severe reductions in service/access. MARTA should re-evaluate this decision and contemplate what they can do to best serve their constituents. IMHO, they would be better off restoring service to the people who need it instead of upgrading service in a corridor that already has fairly decent frequencies.

[Pessimistic Observer]

http://www.itsmarta.com/memorial-drive-arterial-brt.aspx

I had asked previously if anyone knew where this project stood. According to an update on 4/1 (perhaps it was an April Fools prank?), revenue service is scheduled to begin this fall. It's good news to see something moving forward at MARTA but for the life of me I don't know how the Authority can roll out a new service like this when it's in the midst of serious cutbacks. In better times, I'd be fine with the project, but I've got several friends in neighborhoods that are facing severe reductions in service/access. MARTA should re-evaluate this decision and contemplate what they can do to best serve their constituents. IMHO, they would be better off restoring service to the people who need it instead of upgrading service in a corridor that already has fairly decent frequencies.

I think this is a case of someone else is paying for this so marta can do it while regular service to my neighbor hood is not being payed for so marta can no longer do it. question is once its done will marta be able to keep it running with no money

[delarosa]

http://www.itsmarta.com/memorial-drive-arterial-brt.aspx

I had asked previously if anyone knew where this project stood. According to an update on 4/1 (perhaps it was an April Fools prank?), revenue service is scheduled to begin this fall. It's good news to see something moving forward at MARTA but for the life of me I don't know how the Authority can roll out a new service like this when it's in the midst of serious cutbacks. In better times, I'd be fine with the project, but I've got several friends in neighborhoods that are facing severe reductions in service/access. MARTA should re-evaluate this decision and contemplate what they can do to best serve their constituents. IMHO, they would be better off restoring service to the people who need it instead of upgrading service in a corridor that already has fairly decent frequencies.

I don't know much about the project and how it fits within a broader strategy, but it also seems like this could be a good pilot for similar service along other corridors.

[shivtim]

With only seven days left in the legislative session, pressure is mounting to get some sort of transit reform passed.

Jim Galloway hints at a possible 2010 tax vote (http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2010/04/12/are-we-headed-toward-a-november-transit-funding-vote/)

Jesse Jackson in town to fight for transit (http://blogs.ajc.com/gold-dome-live/2010/04/12/jesse-jackson-back-in-atl-backs-transit-funding/?cxntfid=blogs_gold_dome_live)

ARC trying to get it passed (http://blogs.ajc.com/gold-dome-live/2010/04/12/arc-pushing-transportation-bill/?cxntfid=blogs_gold_dome_live)

Keep your fingers crossed. Better yet, contact Rep. Jay Roberts (the chair of the House transportation committee) urging that they free MARTA of the 50/50 restriction and let us vote on a penny transportation tax THIS YEAR. jay.roberts@house.ga.gov
404-656-7153

[shivtim]

Some useful info from the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce:

You can make a difference by sending at least one fax or email TODAY to the members of the Conference Committee. Now is the time for transportation solutions! A vote in the House and Senate may come as early as this Wednesday.

Conference Committee Members
SENATE
Tommy Williams – President Pro Tempore
FAX: 404-463-5220
Tommie.Williams@senate.ga.gov

Jeff Mullis – Chairman, Senate Transportation Committee
FAX: 404-651-6768
Jeff.Mullis@senate.ga.gov

Preston Smith- Chairman, Judiciary Committee
FAX: 404-463-4161
Preston.Smith@senate.ga.gov

HOUSE
Jerry Keen – Majority Leader
FAX: 404-656-5902
Jerry.keen@house.ga.gov

Jay Roberts – Chairman, Transportation Committee
FAX: 404-656-6700
Jay.roberts@house.ga.gov

Donna Sheldon – Majority Caucus Chair
FAX: 404-657-8278
Donna.sheldon@house.ga.gov

As the Committee discusses the details of the legislation, the Gwinnett Chamber is encouraging them to include the following:

(1) Strong local/regional input on the selection and approval of the list of transit/road projects is critical with appropriate state oversight. Citizens need to know that their local elected officials are supportive of the best regional solutions. We also believe that there is a way to strike an appropriate balance between strong regional input and the statewide planning perspective without having to have an "opt out" provision.

(2) Includes funding for all modes including transit maintenance and operations. Transit maintenance and operations must be included in the list of allowable project expenditures.

(3) Counties should be allowed to keep part of the regional sales tax for local transportation projects but this amount should be limited to 10%. Some legislators wanted 25% but this would make big regional projects difficult to finance. Taxes raised in the region stay in the region!

(4) The timing for a regional referendum to approve the sales tax should be flexible within limits so that local leaders can identify the best time to bring this issue to the polls. Some have suggested, for example, that referenda be permitted no earlier than the first eligible date in 2011 and no later than the last eligible date in 2012.

(5) We also support the Governor’s proposal to allow MARTA to spend more of their current penny sales tax on maintenance and operations to prevent shutdowns on weekends or more service cuts. Current state law will not allow MARTA to spend more than half the penny on maintenance and operations.

[WestsideATL]

Again, good luck. Most of these provisions are bundled up in an all or nothing transportation financing bill, HB 1218. On their own, they'd probably have a chance. Together, who knows?

The 50/50 rule for MARTA would've passed last year but it was used as a political football to advance Sonny's SB 200 and ended up being a rider on the wrong bill. We'll see what happens this year...

[smArTaLlone]

Jesse Jackson in town to fight for transit (http://blogs.ajc.com/gold-dome-live/2010/04/12/jesse-jackson-back-in-atl-backs-transit-funding/?cxntfid=blogs_gold_dome_live)


Alex the answer is...

What personalities are least likely to inspire action by the Georgia legislature?

[cabasse]

http://blogs.ajc.com/gold-dome-live/2010/04/13/bill-to-restore-transit-status-at-dot-help-marta-passes-house-committee/?cxntfid=blogs_gold_dome_live

A bill (SB 520) that sponsors say would help public transit statewide, including MARTA, passed the House Transportation Committee Tuesday.

As introduced, the bill would restore the state Department of Transportation’s office that deals with public transit, ports and railways to division status, after it was unwittingly demoted in a new law last year.

The House committee also added measures to the bill Tuesday to help MARTA, including lifting a restriction on how much of its money it can spend on operations. It would also reconfigure the MARTA board, eliminating board positions for the state and counties that don’t pay into MARTA. Currently the state, Gwinnett and Clayton counties each appoint members to the board, although they don’t pay any sustained money to run MARTA, according to MARTA officials. Fulton and DeKalb counties pay a 1 percent sales tax toward MARTA, and appoint a majority of the current positions on the MARTA board.

[Fiorenza]

the bill would restore the state Department of Transportation’s office that deals with public transit

Maybe that would placate the assholes.

[BlindFatSnake]

Maybe that would placate the assholes.

If you mean State Government then you would be correct in aptly calliing a spade a spade... This dumb-a$$ state is getting it just do when the Obama administration is giving millions of dollars to Florida and NC to show GEORGIA that if you don't "get your act together on transit" you will suffer when federal dollars for ROADS are distributed.

It seems to be working... You go OBAMA... :banana:

Why in hell would Gwinnett county have respresentation on the MARTA board is just plain f*cking dumb and a$$backwards...

[mike1986]

Maybe that would placate the assholes.

This site is for people with an interest in skyscrapers, cities, urban planning, and transit... and to stoop down to your level, not for assholes like yourself. Of course other people's opinions are welcome, but you could at least state it in a much more intelligent and respectful way. I love Atlanta and think this city has so much potential, but this state and the majority of people in it are just plain dumb! :koko: :(

[Fiorenza]

Mike,

Thanks for joining the discussion. I may be an asshole but I do have a concept of transportation in this region.

1. I don't think we should spend more money on highways. For whatever reason, the statistical usage trend is static.

2. I don't think we should spend more money on mass public transport. It's not what most of us are about around here....to stand in line, wait for the service, herd with a bunch of smelly people with spotty, dodgy credentials.

There's plenty of gas and natural gas to run cars for the foreseeable future. Granted it will cost more but that will also help suppress traffic, encourage density and efficiency.

[sunking1056]

2. I don't think we should spend more money on mass public transport. It's not what most of us are about around here....to stand in line, wait for the service, herd with a bunch of smelly people with spotty, dodgy credentials.


Ahhhhh good old Fiorenza...

[Fiorenza]

I'm just representing the opinion of millions of fellow citizens.

[WestsideATL]

Mike,

Thanks for joining the discussion. I may be an asshole but I do have a concept of transportation in this region.

1. I don't think we should spend more money on highways. For whatever reason, the statistical usage trend is static.

2. I don't think we should spend more money on mass public transport. It's not what most of us are about around here....to stand in line, wait for the service, herd with a bunch of smelly people with spotty, dodgy credentials.

There's plenty of gas and natural gas to run cars for the foreseeable future. Granted it will cost more but that will also help suppress traffic, encourage density and efficiency.

1. I generally agree that we should stop spending money on highways and more importantly four-lane divided highways to nowhere. The benefit gained relative to the cost has been on downward trend since the mid-90s. There still may be a few strategic corridors that'll make sense to improve freight flows like the Northern Arc, but those are few and far between.

2 Our current sprawled land use is a direct result of our transportation investments. If we want to encourage any sort of density in and around our cities we're going to need to invest in things that move lots of people in as little space as possible. That's transit. And transit is always going to have its "smelly people with spotty, dodgy credentials." Asia, Europe, DC and NYC all have the same issues - the key is making it nice enough that enough normal people use it. Then, if you get enough normal people riding the service, those undesirables are hardly noticeable.

[mike1986]

Mike,

Thanks for joining the discussion. I may be an asshole but I do have a concept of transportation in this region.

1. I don't think we should spend more money on highways. For whatever reason, the statistical usage trend is static.

2. I don't think we should spend more money on mass public transport. It's not what most of us are about around here....to stand in line, wait for the service, herd with a bunch of smelly people with spotty, dodgy credentials.

There's plenty of gas and natural gas to run cars for the foreseeable future. Granted it will cost more but that will also help suppress traffic, encourage density and efficiency.

So basically you're saying we do nothing? We let traffic and gas prices increase to the point where driving is no longer economically feasible for most people and this will somehow encourage density and suppress traffic? I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying before I continue...

[BlindFatSnake]

Georgia may not have any money for ROADS... hahahaha

Dumb asses. Stick it to them OBAMA...

[cybele]

Well why would Obama stick it to Georgia, half the people here voted for the man.

[RobMidtowner]

1. I don't think we should spend more money on highways. For whatever reason, the statistical usage trend is static.

"the statistical usage trend is static"??? Not if you, ya know, actually look at historic traffic volume data, which are available online. There may be some minor plateauing over the last 2-3 years because of gas prices/recession, but Atlanta is a growing city and traffic grows, just like population.

What about the concept of our current gas tax, that is cents per gallon and not cents per dollar, so it does not rise with inflation? Doesn't that need to be considered? And the increase in fuel efficiency/hybrid vehicles, which are really great and I support them, but they pay less tax dollars per mile traveled, and roads don't maintain themselves for free. Don't you think this creates problems for DOT's? This is why transportation funding is an issue, funding needs to be increased to keep pace with demand, not because some greedy government is making a money-grab like you seem to be implying.


2. I don't think we should spend more money on mass public transport. It's not what most of us are about around here....to stand in line, wait for the service, herd with a bunch of smelly people with spotty, dodgy credentials.

There's plenty of gas and natural gas to run cars for the foreseeable future. Granted it will cost more but that will also help suppress traffic, encourage density and efficiency.

And this is based on what? Because most people drive in this city instead of taking transit? How many people do you think want to take transit but have no other options but driving? What would they think about your stance of doing nothing to improve all our transportation/traffic issues? I'm all for having low taxes, but not so low they cripple our current infrastructure.

[BlindFatSnake]

Well why would Obama stick it to Georgia, half the people here voted for the man.

NOT!!! McCain won Georgia by about 200,000+. Yet, we did close the gap from previous elections (down from 600,000).

IMHO, Georgia is getting the shaft because the state continues to punish Atlanta because it's preceived to be black-run. Well, the Feds are punishing Georgia because the state is treating the economic engine likes a bicycle instead of a Harley...

In other words, force the state to invest in Public Transit before it gets any funding for state roads.

Come on Clayton, join MARTA so the line can be extended to Jonesboro. Who needs commuter rail when MARTA is waiting and ready.

Sarah Palin = the new Jesse Jackson of politics. :jester:

[cybele]

Well, it says here Obama got 47% which is 1,844,123 people that voted for the man. Which is just about half in my book and even more in Fulton, Dekalb and Clayton. So why would he turn around and poke them in the eyeball.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/individual/#mapPGA

I have to agree with you on the MARTA thing. It was built up 30 years ago by the prior generations and paid for and probably half its stations are just sitting there not getting built up worth a flip. My question is why not use what you got before people go out spending umpteen billion more.

[Rail Claimore]

Most of Atlanta's traffic woes would be alleviated if the metro area would beef up its arterial system, more than anything else. Many parts of suburban Atlanta still rely on 2-lane county roads, when in most metro areas, 4 or 6 lane roads would be the norm, with traffic signal synchronization and a few grade-separated overpasses at some bottleneck intersections.

[Fiorenza]

Yes, that's how we should be spending the money, but it's much too much common sense to gain traction.

[dante2308]

In other words, force the state to invest in Public Transit before it gets any funding for state roads.


This solves what? I'm a little tired of non-funded mass transit for people who don't want, need, or wish to pay for it. If the people are fine paying their gas tax on roads then they should keep getting roads as long as they keep paying the tax. If some other city and state wants to ride trains and leave us with a car-only city then so be it.

[cybele]

If some other city and state wants to ride trains and leave us with a car-only city then so be it.

Well, we already got 50 something miles of the high speed MARTA train bought and paid-for plus we're laying on another 22 with the Belt line, so it seems like we are way ahead of the rest of them. We have got the trains and whatnot aplenty, it is only a question of whether people want to live near by or ride them.

[shivtim]

This solves what? I'm a little tired of non-funded mass transit for people who don't want, need, or wish to pay for it. If the people are fine paying their gas tax on roads then they should keep getting roads as long as they keep paying the tax. If some other city and state wants to ride trains and leave us with a car-only city then so be it.


The gas tax does not even come close to covering the cost of driving, especially when you take into account health costs from pollution. People should not "keep getting roads" for the same reason that companies should not be able to keep dumping pollutants in our rivers.
Whether people here realize it or not, they do need mass transit, even if they don't ever ride it. If we suddenly removed MARTA one day, this city would immediately fail.

[Fiorenza]

Wow.

[shivtim]

^Why "wow'?

Can you name one decently sized city or metro area with zero public transit? It's a necessity. If transit wasn't important, why does every business group in the area support it? Hell, MARTA doesn't even go into Gwinnett county, but the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce has a big campaign right now to pressure the legislature to fund transit. Even GDOT supports transit, they just can't get the money to pay for it (they also can't get the money to pay for roads).

Hundreds of thousands of people ride MARTA every day. Atlanta is known as a hospitality city, and many of the workers in hotels, the airport, and convention spaces require transit to get to work. If MARTA stopped running, annual traffic delays in Atlanta would increase by 1.25 million hours and cost an additional $245 million in “congestion costs” (i.e. gas consumption, tardy deliveries and employee productivity). Transit has a huge economic benefit. That is why I say the city would fail if transit was suddenly removed.

In FY 2010, fuel taxes are expected to bring in $688,000,000 to GDOT. This is only about 26% of the overall budget of more than $2.6 billion. Thus, motor vehicle users do not even come close to covering the cost of road building and maintenance. And that’s just the direct costs. The inderect costs are also huge. For example, the Association of General Contractors of America (AGC), which I assure you is very pro-road construction organization, estimates the following:
Motor vehicle crashes cost Georgia $8 billion per year, $959 for each resident, in medical costs, lost productivity, travel delays, workplace costs, insurance costs and legal costs.

And then there's pollution.
Everytime the air pollution levels in Atlanta violate the EPA’s standards, we lose money. This happend in 1998, and we were unable to draw upon federal highway funds that year (which by the way make up 80% of our highway budget). Spending money on systems like MARTA help us have cleaner air quality, which somewhat paradoxically help us receive more money for roads. Recently the EPA made ozone standards more strict - so Atlanta is likely to be in non-attainment again and lose more transportation funding.



So claiming that metro Atlanta residents should just get more roads "as long as they keep paying the tax" doesn't add up.

[Fiorenza]

I don't dispute any of the facts you present. I just merely ask, where's the money coming from to do any of the above? Every further 1% sales tax further kills retailing and consuming in Georgia, which are already on life support. In turn, commercial construction and overall competitiveness in this state are affected by high taxes.

Taxes are killing us.

[BlindFatSnake]

This solves what? I'm a little tired of non-funded mass transit for people who don't want, need, or wish to pay for it. If the people are fine paying their gas tax on roads then they should keep getting roads as long as they keep paying the tax. If some other city and state wants to ride trains and leave us with a car-only city then so be it.

I hail from Charlotte, NC - a city that has increased its transit spending by expanding bus service and adding all types of alternative transit options for it citizens. And now the city has benefitting because the citizens (white/black/asian/hispanic) have embraced the new options and the federal government is taking notice. Charlotte is becoming the poster child for modern transit alternatives, while Atlanta is being laughed at on the national scale because MARTA has been hog-tied by a redneck state.

Yet, in this race-baited town, the state continues to kick shit in the face of those who want more transit options. We are not Mayberry - we are a top 10 city/metro in the US. Get with the f'ing program, or we'll find the ATL hard pressed for federal funding of roads. It's that f'ing simple. :whip:

Dante, I'm a helluva lot tired of small-town minded individuals who think roads pay for themselves, and believe mass transit is a welfare handout for the masses of COLORED PEOPLE who can't afford a car. You and all of those who think like you can KMA... :tup:

This region is gonna move forward with transit or the federal government is going to strangle Georgia with a noose made of asphalt.

Atlanta is not south Georgia. It is a major city that is running in last place when it comes to transit improvements (as compared with Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Norfolk and other transit progressive cities).

Let the people vote.

By the way, when the 2010 census is complete, we'll all see how "ubran" the core 5 counites have become. My prediction: 40% of the 3.7 million living in the 5 core counties will be minorities. Get use to it!!!

[TarHeelJ]

I hail from Charlotte, NC - a city that has increased its transit spending by expanding bus service and adding all types of alternative transit options for it citizens. And now the city has benefitting because the citizens (white/black/asian/hispanic) have embraced the new options and the federal government is taking notice. Charlotte is becoming the poster child for modern transit alternatives, while Atlanta is being laughed at on the national scale because MARTA has been hog-tied by a redneck state.

Yet, in this race-baited town, the state continues to kick shit in the face of those who want more transit options. We are not Mayberry - we are a top 10 city/metro in the US. Get with the f'ing program, or we'll find the ATL hard pressed for federal funding of roads. It's that f'ing simple. :whip:

Dante, I'm a helluva lot tired of small-town minded individuals who think roads pay for themselves, and believe mass transit is a welfare handout for the masses of COLORED PEOPLE who can't afford a car. You and all of those who think like you can KMA... :tup:

This region is gonna move forward with transit or the federal government is going to strangle Georgia with a noose made of asphalt.

Atlanta is not south Georgia. It is a major city that is running in last place when it comes to transit improvements (as compared with Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Norfolk and other transit progressive cities).

Let the people vote.

By the way, when the 2010 census is complete, we'll all see how "ubran" the core 5 counites have become. My prediction: 40% of the 3.7 million living in the 5 core counties will be minorities. Get use to it!!!

For all of the "transit alternatives" (and I strongly question the validity of that) that are causing Charlotte to be the poster child for modern transit (and I strongly question this assertion as well), Atlanta is light years ahead of the so-called "transit progressive" cities. Norfolk? Please. Charlotte? Whatever. These little one line light rail systems are ZERO compared to what Atlanta has. Of course they have plans to expand these little systems - but all systems, including MARTA, have elaborate expansion plans. Plans are just talk...we'll see how many of them actually take shape, then talk about which city is a poster child.

I get so sick of people proclaiming the progressiveness of cities like those mentioned. Look a little further into transit in those cities and you'll find many of the same funding issues that are popularly pinned on Atlanta.

[shivtim]

^Agreed, I think many people undrestimate the transit infrastructure that Atlanta already has.

You note that MARTA has expansion plans... but they are simply plans. They are not going to happen anytime soon. Atlanta recently lost C-Tran, had MARTA cuts a year ago, and is poised for further MARTA cuts. We do have the beltline, but I doubt the transit component will be implemented within the next decade. Atlanta was really transit progressive in the 1970s, and is now transit regressive. These other cities are still way behind but are displaying huge positive expansions of transit.

I remain optimistic, but if MARTA doesn't see a temporary fix by the end of this month, my optimism will take a big hit.

[shivtim]

Update from the "Save MARTA" campaign:

Here's the current situation for MARTA. Things down at the capitol are not looking good at all.
- First, the budget is basically done and there is no money for MARTA.
- Second, it doesn't look like any of the 50/50 bills, SB 120 or otherwise, will make it.
- Third, the regional funding bill still has the language that MARTA can't get any of the money from the 1 cent sales tax. It looks like the leadership/conference committee are leaning toward a statutory bill so they don't need any Democratic votes to pass it. And there is no amending or debate once the bill gets out of the conference committee, just an up or down vote on the floor of both chambers.

We as a transit community need to pressure the conference committee members to remove the anti-MARTA ammedment in the the current bill.

The legislative schedule looks like day 37 and 38 will be 4/20 and 4/21 and then days 39 and 40 will be the 4/27 and 4/29.

Below is a last minute rally being organized in a rush. The information for that is posted below, please forward!! Also look for giant red X's on the buses being cut from service that day. Also, the contact info to the those in the conference committee is listed below as Save MARTA had circulated earlier. Call them and let them know MARTA matters!

Please Forward this to anyone you know who relies on MARTA!
*****************
Last Chance for Transit Rally and Call-in
April 20th at 5 Points Station, Peachtree St side
10am-noon and 6pm-8pm
Atlanta faces massive transit service cuts unless the legislature acts now!
There are only four days left in the legislative session; we need you to demonstrate how important transit is to the region and the state. Bring your phone so you can call your legislators.

Please Forward
*****************
URGENT Legislative Action Alert
There are only four days left in the legislative session and the regional transportation funding bill still has language denying MARTA any new funds. This bill will go to the House and Senate for a floor vote with no amendments. We need the anti-MARTA language removed from HB 277/SB 39.
Call the conference committee members and leadership and tell them:
Don't single MARTA out; let the Atlanta region decide how it wants to spend its sales tax money!

Transportation Conference Committee Members
Rep. Jay Roberts, Chair of House Transportation Committee
jay.roberts@house.ga.gov
(404) 656-7153
Rep. Jerry Keen
jerry.keen@house.ga.gov
(404) 656-5052
Rep. Donna Sheldon
donna.sheldon@house.ga.gov
(404) 656-5025
Sen. Jeff Mullis, Chair of the Senate Transportation Committee
jeff.mullis@senate.ga.gov
(404) 656-0057
Sen. Preston Smith
preston.smith@senate.ga.gov
(404) 656-0034
Sen. Tommie Williams
tommie.williams@senate.ga.gov
(404) 656-0089
Leadership
House Speaker David Ralston
(404) 656-5020
House Speaker Pro-Tempore Jan Jones
(404) 656-5072
Lieutenant Governor Casey Cagle
(404) 656-5030

[Fiorenza]

What would help MARTA more than anything would be to get rid of their union, and eliminate the defined benefit pension plan.

[BlindFatSnake]

For all of the "transit alternatives" (and I strongly question the validity of that) that are causing Charlotte to be the poster child for modern transit (and I strongly question this assertion as well), Atlanta is light years ahead of the so-called "transit progressive" cities. Norfolk? Please. Charlotte? Whatever. These little one line light rail systems are ZERO compared to what Atlanta has. Of course they have plans to expand these little systems - but all systems, including MARTA, have elaborate expansion plans. Plans are just talk...we'll see how many of them actually take shape, then talk about which city is a poster child.

I get so sick of people proclaiming the progressiveness of cities like those mentioned. Look a little further into transit in those cities and you'll find many of the same funding issues that are popularly pinned on Atlanta.

I didn't say Charlotte (or any of the other cities mentioned) has a better system than Atlanta. Of course Atlanta is 30 years ahead of Charlotte, but we are losing traction with the federal government because Georgia is a road-hungry beast. Here's a hint of the future: NC and FL received upwards of 500 million dollars to further their plans for high speed rail across their respective states. Georgia received $750,000 for 3 STUDIES.

Talk about shovel-ready projects! Where does Georgia stand? On the f'ing sideline looking like a reject at a high school prom. :hell:

I agree, MARTA is (and will be for the foreseeable future) a MUCH better system than any in the DEEP South. But, look to DC if you really wanna see what a heavy rail system is capable of achieving. :tup:

When was the last time MARTA received a sizeable increase in funding from the federal government? We all know there's never been a FIRST time for MARTA to receive any funding from REDNECK Georgia. :whip:

[shivtim]

What would help MARTA more than anything would be to get rid of their union, and eliminate the defined benefit pension plan.

"Because transit is such a labor-intensive industry, wage rates are always a concern. MARTA has about 5,000 employees, a vast majority of whom are vehicle operators and maintenance personnel who work on an hourly basis and are represented by transit labor. According to the Dash Report, an independent survey of transit system labor rates nationwide, MARTA’s unionized employees are among the lowest paid compared to their peers at agencies of similar size. The report found that, out of 252 transit agencies, MARTA’s highest-paid bus operators ranked 132nd overall, its mechanics who were at the top of the pay scale ranked 120th and its paratransit operators were paid at about the industry midpoint."

MARTA WAGE RATES
Top Operator Hourly Rate = $19.54 (132nd out of 252 Transit Agencies)
Top Mechanic Hourly Rate = $21.06 (AA Inspectors and Journeymen–120th ranking)
Top Paratransit Hourly Rate = $14.62 (near midpoint)

MARTA increase in Operator's Top Rate: lowest in U.S. over the last 10 years at 1.54% (Nationwide mean and median is 3.02%).
Source: Greg Dash Transit Labor Update, October 2009

[dante2308]

Well, we already got 50 something miles of the high speed MARTA train bought and paid-for plus we're laying on another 22 with the Belt line, so it seems like we are way ahead of the rest of them. We have got the trains and whatnot aplenty, it is only a question of whether people want to live near by or ride them.

I thought we were talking about expansions that the state was using every method they could think of to block. Last I checked the state wiped out the northeast section of the Beltline to "preserve" the corridor for high speed rail that is neither pending and will probably be block to "preserve" unicorns in the area.

If the state neither wants to support or fund mass transit then the state doesn't get it.

[WestsideATL]

"Because transit is such a labor-intensive industry, wage rates are always a concern. MARTA has about 5,000 employees, a vast majority of whom are vehicle operators and maintenance personnel who work on an hourly basis and are represented by transit labor. According to the Dash Report, an independent survey of transit system labor rates nationwide, MARTA’s unionized employees are among the lowest paid compared to their peers at agencies of similar size. The report found that, out of 252 transit agencies, MARTA’s highest-paid bus operators ranked 132nd overall, its mechanics who were at the top of the pay scale ranked 120th and its paratransit operators were paid at about the industry midpoint."

MARTA WAGE RATES
Top Operator Hourly Rate = $19.54 (132nd out of 252 Transit Agencies)
Top Mechanic Hourly Rate = $21.06 (AA Inspectors and Journeymen–120th ranking)
Top Paratransit Hourly Rate = $14.62 (near midpoint)

MARTA increase in Operator's Top Rate: lowest in U.S. over the last 10 years at 1.54% (Nationwide mean and median is 3.02%).
Source: Greg Dash Transit Labor Update, October 2009

Shivtim, I'm not sure what this proves. Pension plans and health care benefits are not being calculated as part of the wage rate. It also doesn't reflect the salaries of the union stewards who just sit around playing cards all day in the bus garages.

I will agree that MARTA's operating statistics reveal that they are more efficient than most of their peers. However, that doesn't mean that they're efficient. I see MARTA cops driving around in Tahoes nowhere near MARTA rail or even bus routes on a regular basis. I've seen MARTA employees sleeping in the pay station areas up at North Springs and Sandy Springs. There's a huge architectural and engineering staff and consulting group that does what, exactly? MARTA hasn't built anything substantive since North Springs station opened in 2002.

To be fair, I don't want to call out MARTA only. GDOT is still a hulking bureaucracy that finds a way to outsource most of its work. Atlanta City Hall, while better than it was, is still a model of inefficiency. All of these agencies have a large number of employees who collect a paycheck but contribute little or nothing to the public good.

When economic times were good, we could afford to support these entitlement programs. Unfortunately, that economic model was unsustainable and now there needs to be a housecleaning across a wide range of local, regional and state agencies to get rid of all the deadweight.

[dante2308]

The gas tax does not even come close to covering the cost of driving, especially when you take into account health costs from pollution. People should not "keep getting roads" for the same reason that companies should not be able to keep dumping pollutants in our rivers.
Whether people here realize it or not, they do need mass transit, even if they don't ever ride it. If we suddenly removed MARTA one day, this city would immediately fail.

The gas tax does not even come close to covering the cost of driving? Look, the "heath care costs from pollution" are pretty intangible. If we are somehow talking about balancing the budget, do you know how much healthcare revenue is created by the economic benefit derived from existence of mostly unimpeded driving?

I just don't buy your argument. I seriously doubt that the cost of a mass transit and the running of said line is less that the cost to the government for the pollution decreases due to that line. The initial and continuing cost of a transit per person per mile is less than that the similar metric for a road.

If you don't believe me here are some per mile facts here (ftp://ftp.dot.state.fl.us/LTS/CO/Estimates/CPM/summary.pdf) for roads (for Florida but probably in the ball park).

Here are some MARTA quotes for rail

MARTA claims that it can build new heavy rail for $200 million per mile.

here is from the Beltline document:
Capital Costs Per Mile:8
• Bus Rapid Transit - $15 – 25M
• Light Rail Transit - $25 – 50M
• Streetcar - $15 – 20M

Are you seriously suggesting that a streetcar is going to carry the volume of 4 four-lane highways and at a greater speed? I think not. The cost to the government for roads is not even in the same ball park.

The point of mass transit is for increased capacity when we run out of space for roads, not as some kind of first choice replacement. I can't even believe I'm proving to you that it isn't reasonable for the state to ban all road construction in lieu of mass transit construction. Has anyone considered that there are places where there isn't a mass to transit in the first place? Like 85% of Georgia?

[delarosa]

This solves what? I'm a little tired of non-funded mass transit for people who don't want, need, or wish to pay for it. If the people are fine paying their gas tax on roads then they should keep getting roads as long as they keep paying the tax. If some other city and state wants to ride trains and leave us with a car-only city then so be it.

That might work if they were also being charged a tax that would help alleviate the damage to my lungs from their exhaust along with covering all of the other externalities (ie everything from funded development practices to political favoritism to the geopolitical costs of maintaining low oil prices to the environmental impact on neighboring areas etc)...of course everyone knows those gas taxes don't actually cover the cost of construction. The good news for everyone is that roads are an excellent for pay per use, practically the free market ideal. So once all the externalities are shored up, and I start receiving a check for my asthma, it'll be easy enough to charge drivers the true cost of providing their roads (and to preempt, knowing that the gas tax doesn't really cover the cost of building those roads and that the rest of us who don't use the roads as much also pay other taxes, one will need to try a bit harder than just saying 'I pay enough taxes already' since the rest of us do as well. etc). Of course as many of those who would be impacted by such a model start curbing their driving (or residential) habits, those remaining staunch drivers would be left paying quite an astronomical bill, which would be proof positive that the unfettered market is finally working.

This is to say nothing of the fact that I think that a good argument can be made for not making architectural and engineering decisions up to plebiscite. Next people will be proposing we take a Facebook poll and determine road locations based on that.

[dante2308]

I'm sorry for your lung problems.

Anyway we live in a sorta democracy. If somehow that meant that we always got the best choice then we wouldn't have needed the thousands of rereforms. I prefer to let the people have what they want. If you are having expensive lung problems, then you are free to move to a place where the general public wants something that costs less for your lungs.

As I have said, the money you do pay for you healthcare comes from the economic benefit that comes from an energy intensive society. So that free market ideal is paying you that check you requested. If you are suggesting that drivers paying all the taxes associated with roads is fair, then perhaps you should go through your life and eradicate anything that made it there on a road or any money you made that can be tied to the use of a road.

Anyway I'm not convinced that the roads even cost that much taxwise per capita and I'm becoming convinced mass transit would cost much more.

By the way I'm not sure you can link your asthma to automobile exhast. You should be much more concerned with factory and power planet fumes as well as the general chemical waste and airborne filth created by urban settlement. The greatest majority of car exhaust has zero effect on health and the rest shouldn't be in the gasoline to begin with.

[shivtim]

Dante, just because you don't want expanded transit doesn't mean the people of Atlanta don't. In case you've forgotten, the voters of Fulton and Dekalb county voted to fund MARTA in the first place.

[shivtim]

The health effects of driving are not intangible. Here's a good example from right here in Atlanta:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/7/897

Of course transit costs more to build than roads - but initial construction cost should not be the only metric for deciding what to build. Health concerns, transportation safety, environmental concerns, accessibility and ethical concerns, and even "livability" should be taken into account. Recent studies show that each new urban highway built drains the city population by 18% (http://www.planetizen.com/node/43413).

All of the cities with the highest standard of living and the highest quality of life rankings have excellent transit systems. This is not a coincidence. The field of Public Health has stressed the impact of "social capital" on health. Communities that are separated by huge highways and big parking lots have lower social capital, which has a negative impact on health.

So, the only positives of roads are that they are initially cheaper to build and can be generally more convenient (only for those who can afford a car, and only until traffic gets bad). Transit wins on esentially every other metric.

[delarosa]

I'm sorry for your lung problems.

Anyway we live in a sorta democracy. etc

No, actually you're not sorry. Frankly I hope someone dumps pollutants on you and your family and says, "well, sorry. you are free to move elsewhere though."

The whole idea that the health implications are intangible would be amusing if it weren't so serious. For example, perhaps a good point of departure would be to spend a day outside on one of those July code red pollution days and reflect on the 15% or so that's likely attributable to cars. The notion that it's difficult to tie that to a specific dollar value doesn't make "so let's just keep on keeping on" smart reasoning.

The whole argument about cost per mile besides once again not addressing any of the externalities/free rider issues, is also a false dilemma because the argument was 'people should be able to do whatever they want' when in fact a variety of other options are available, like say electric bus rapid transit.

As for how many people in largely single occupancy vehicles on a grid locked four lane road moves relative to other modes and the idea of a health system that energy built rhetoric, these are also sloppy arguments. A good starting point might be looking at other places that have chosen to employ those 'cheap' resources otherwise. And then from there maybe spend a little time in ethics, ends and means. Then maybe a little time comparing health systems in cities that aren't so auto dependent. Really there's a lot of work to be done when it comes to thinking this through.

Oh and as for sorta democracy you mean a constitutional republic or representative democracy, then that's right. Note that doesn't mean plebiscite. The surprising thing is I'd be willing to bet most using a similar argument (and I won't assume necessarily you) wouldn't employ the same standard of populism when it comes to, for example, making military strategy decisions. I can just see it now, logon to Facebook tomorrow and vote on our weapons development projects, deployment strategy, go/no go decisions, attack plans and more! The idea that any sociopolitical entity (nation, state or municipal) would last very long based on such decision making is laughable.

But again, I'm all for a sound free market approach of placing the burden on the users. Shore up the externalities and shift entirely to a pay per use model.

[shivtim]

Also, in case you haven't seen it, here's a summary document from the American Public Health Association that outlines healthy transportation policy.

http://www.apha.org/NR/rdonlyres/43F10382-FB68-4112-8C75-49DCB10F8ECF/0/TransportationBrief.pdf

[dante2308]

No, actually you're not sorry. Frankly I hope someone dumps pollutants on you and your family and says, "well, sorry. you are free to move elsewhere though."

After that, I am still sorry for your lung problems but I'm not going to engage you on any of this anymore. If I had lung problems I wouldn't be here. I can't conceive of a good reason for you to stay because I don't think anything is more important than health so if you are convinced cars are causing you a life threatening lung condition and you aren't doing anything about it then there is nothing more to be said.

I'll also let you know that if you start a statement with "frankly I hope someone dumps pollutants on you and your family" I'm not likely to continue reading. I hope you didn't say anything important after that.

[dante2308]

Dante, just because you don't want expanded transit doesn't mean the people of Atlanta don't. In case you've forgotten, the voters of Fulton and Dekalb county voted to fund MARTA in the first place.

I would love to expand transit. I'm just not ideologically opposed to the concept of a roads.

[dante2308]

The health effects of driving are not intangible. Here's a good example from right here in Atlanta:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/285/7/897

Of course transit costs more to build than roads - but initial construction cost should not be the only metric for deciding what to build. Health concerns, transportation safety, environmental concerns, accessibility and ethical concerns, and even "livability" should be taken into account. Recent studies show that each new urban highway built drains the city population by 18% (http://www.planetizen.com/node/43413).

That link is dead. Please repost because I am quite interested to hear how the construction of a highway drains population in comparison to the control.

I want to be clear that I am referring not to limited access highways which can reasonably replaced by mass transit as they are in of themselves a high capacity transportation system, but to state roads as BFS indicated.

I don't currently see the need for new limited access highway construction and I don't think that state road/highway or street level construction can or should be avoided. I hope this is more clear.

I think that mass transit is ALWAYS placed supplementary to a road network and for good reason. Even in NYC, a comprehensive road network serves all structures and the mass transit maximizes volume density in limited highly traveled corridors. I think it is silly to pretend that roads can somehow be eliminated or that new road construction can be completely suspended in lieu of mass transit.

As for pollution or the environment, I'll take this opportunity to express again my support for electric enhanced vehicles to replace our existing fossil fuel fleet.

[delarosa]

After that, I am still sorry...you aren't doing anything about it then there is nothing more to be said.

Firstly, my point was rhetorical equivalence. Secondly, besides the various other implications of the idea that everyone else should just leave, who's to say I haven't and, more importantly, that others have the luxury to do likewise? Funny how now they're (and really everyone is) both the victims of pollution and culpable. Talk about a catch-22

[dante2308]

Firstly, my point was rhetorical equivalence. Secondly, besides the various other implications of the idea that everyone else should just leave, who's to say I haven't and, more importantly, that others have the luxury to do likewise? Funny how now they're (and really everyone is) both the victims of pollution and culpable. Talk about a catch-22

Luxury is an illusion of priority. If something is preventing you from doing something, then it is because you are giving it a higher priority.

With that I will again reiterate that we are done discussing this issue. Perhaps we can engage on a separate issue in the future. I will continue speaking with others to clear up any points or misunderstandings however. We are no longer talking about transit and I don't want to spin off into a discussion on personal health responsibilities.

[delarosa]

Luxury is an illusion of priority. If something is preventing you from doing something, then it is because you are giving it a higher priority.

With that I will again reiterate that we are done discussing this issue. Perhaps we can engage on a separate issue in the future.

Actually it didn't look like you were done discussing, and if you are, that's ok. I'm sure making sure the flaws in the argument are exposed.

So let's consider two of many examples. You are a single mother of two with a live in parent who's ill. You work two jobs, one of which provides you the health insurance you might not be able to secure on your own and could likely not afford if you could secure it. You are also in an upside down mortgage and live check to check. One of your children asthmatic. The point is there's an illusion of priority considering their other option likely includes relocating to a shelter or on the street with no health insurance at all, likely compounding the family health issues and long-term security of everyone in the family.

Second example, likely much more prevalent. There are two parents of two children. Neither parent recognizes the dangers in the air quality...take your pick, either they're completely oblivious to the possibility or they are populist auto ideologues and think the auto-air quality link is intangible. However, one child suffers from an undiagnosed lung condition and the other is being set up for adult onset asthma or some other serious ailment related to particulates, take your pick. Despite what one might say about the responsibility of either parent, the argument is that in both scenarios both children and parents suffer from an illusion of priority.

Clearly the actual situations obviously vary widely. But somehow what we're dealing with is an illusion of priority and not an illusion of a generalization fallacy or simply a stubborn clinging to a laissez faire policy that is inappropriate in this case. Fascinating...and unfortunate.

[dante2308]

I was tempted to say something. That was a mistake. This will be my last response to you for a while. I didn't read through your post. I am only here to discuss transit.

[delarosa]

I was tempted to say something. That was a mistake. This will be my last response to you for a while. I didn't read through your post. I am only here to discuss transit.

ironically you said something again. You see, you aren't really done yet. And rest assured, the discussion is very much about transit. Despite the assertions, letting development occur any which way irrespective of health and other market externalities is not the best policy and those who deal with the various consequences of things like vehicle emissions, land use patterns, subsidized roads and so on are not suffering from illusions.

[L41A]

^Why "wow'?

............. Even GDOT supports transit, they just can't get the money to pay for it (they also can't get the money to pay for roads).

Hundreds of thousands of people ride MARTA every day. Atlanta is known as a hospitality city, and many of the workers in hotels, the airport, and convention spaces require transit to get to work. If MARTA stopped running, annual traffic delays in Atlanta would increase by 1.25 million hours and cost an additional $245 million in “congestion costs” (i.e. gas consumption, tardy deliveries and employee productivity). Transit has a huge economic benefit. That is why I say the city would fail if transit was suddenly removed.

In FY 2010, fuel taxes are expected to bring in $688,000,000 to GDOT. This is only about 26% of the overall budget of more than $2.6 billion. Thus, motor vehicle users do not even come close to covering the cost of road building and maintenance. And that’s just the direct costs. The inderect costs are also huge. For example, the Association of General Contractors of America (AGC), which I assure you is very pro-road construction organization, estimates the following:
Motor vehicle crashes cost Georgia $8 billion per year, $959 for each resident, in medical costs, lost productivity, travel delays, workplace costs, insurance costs and legal costs.

............................................

So claiming that metro Atlanta residents should just get more roads "as long as they keep paying the tax" doesn't add up.

I enjoyed your reading your post. It really illustrated that gas taxes that Georgia collects do not come close to paying for road construction which someone may have suggested.

It seems to me that metro Atlanta is doing pretty good in the quantity of roads but lacking more so in public transportation. Sure the quality of the roadways is decreasing illustrating that we can't even afford to maintain what we have yet alone build more. I agree in part with what someone stated earlier concerning arterial roadways - improve them, synchronize lights, build sidewalks which is cheaper than say building a tunnel. If we going to be cost-conscious on mass transit (which incidentally Georgia gives very little toward), let's be cost-conscious on road building as well.

It also appears to me that we are underfunding our transportation systems. I don't have a particular liking to taxes no more than the next person. But taxes based on usage (gas taxes, MARTA fares, toll roads, etc) are more acceptable to me. I also realize and do not bemoan that although I may not ride MARTA everyday, the sales taxes I pay in Fulton (I'm a Fulton resident) and DeKalb supports the system and its beneficial to the city, state, country as a whole.

What people don't seem to realize is that we are interdependent. Georgia builds very little without the help of the federal government. Metro Atlanta provides many economic benefits to the rest of Georgia. Without the city of Atlanta, the suburbs and exurbs would not exist. Without MARTA, the whole transportation system (including roads) suffer. The health of each entity is important for the sustenance of the others.

Maybe we should not expand MARTA right now. But at least, let MARTA use more of the money that it has collected for its operations.

[L41A]

Update from the "Save MARTA" campaign:

Thanks for the information.

[L41A]

What would help MARTA more than anything would be to get rid of their union, and eliminate the defined benefit pension plan.

"Because transit is such a labor-intensive industry, wage rates are always a concern. MARTA has about 5,000 employees, a vast majority of whom are vehicle operators and maintenance personnel who work on an hourly basis and are represented by transit labor. According to the Dash Report, an independent survey of transit system labor rates nationwide, MARTA’s unionized employees are among the lowest paid compared to their peers at agencies of similar size. The report found that, out of 252 transit agencies, MARTA’s highest-paid bus operators ranked 132nd overall, its mechanics who were at the top of the pay scale ranked 120th and its paratransit operators were paid at about the industry midpoint."

MARTA WAGE RATES
Top Operator Hourly Rate = $19.54 (132nd out of 252 Transit Agencies)
Top Mechanic Hourly Rate = $21.06 (AA Inspectors and Journeymen–120th ranking)
Top Paratransit Hourly Rate = $14.62 (near midpoint)

MARTA increase in Operator's Top Rate: lowest in U.S. over the last 10 years at 1.54% (Nationwide mean and median is 3.02%).
Source: Greg Dash Transit Labor Update, October 2009

Fiorenza just seems to be stating the party line. It helps to explain the possible ulterior motive of the Georgia Legislature in not letting MARTA use more of its own money - kill the Union.

There comes a time when politicking should end and the governing and the helping of people and society should began. But oftentimes - politics, race, class and other things that help to divide is not far from some people's consciousness.

[dante2308]

Fiorenza just seems to be stating the party line. It helps to explain the possible ulterior motive of the Georgia Legislature in not letting MARTA use more of its own money - kill the Union.

There comes a time when politicking should end and the governing and the helping of people and society should began. But oftentimes - politics, race, class and other things that help to divide is not far from some people's consciousness.

I completely agree that this is a factor, however until the adults are in charge of the government it is hard to justify the federal level offering projects to the city if the state is going to sabotage it with any means. This is hardly about whether or not Atlanta should have more mass transit which is a separate debate and not fully clear, but more about the problem that Atlanta's political environment makes it impossible.

While it is good to draft plans and finding the appropriate solutions, this battle is more about the kind of people we elect to our state and local level government. A set of facts or proposals means little in the face of uncompromising ideologies both from those here who suggest that roads are the source of all evil or that transit is somehow more about demographics than about moving people from point A to B.

[L41A]

"Because transit is such a labor-intensive industry, wage rates are always a concern. MARTA has about 5,000 employees, a vast majority of whom are vehicle operators and maintenance personnel who work on an hourly basis and are represented by transit labor. According to the Dash Report, an independent survey of transit system labor rates nationwide, MARTA’s unionized employees are among the lowest paid compared to their peers at agencies of similar size. The report found that, out of 252 transit agencies, MARTA’s highest-paid bus operators ranked 132nd overall, its mechanics who were at the top of the pay scale ranked 120th and its paratransit operators were paid at about the industry midpoint."

MARTA WAGE RATES
Top Operator Hourly Rate = $19.54 (132nd out of 252 Transit Agencies)
Top Mechanic Hourly Rate = $21.06 (AA Inspectors and Journeymen–120th ranking)
Top Paratransit Hourly Rate = $14.62 (near midpoint)

MARTA increase in Operator's Top Rate: lowest in U.S. over the last 10 years at 1.54% (Nationwide mean and median is 3.02%).
Source: Greg Dash Transit Labor Update, October 2009

Shivtim, I'm not sure what this proves. Pension plans and health care benefits are not being calculated as part of the wage rate. It also doesn't reflect the salaries of the union stewards who just sit around playing cards all day in the bus garages.

I will agree that MARTA's operating statistics reveal that they are more efficient than most of their peers. However, that doesn't mean that they're efficient. I see MARTA cops driving around in Tahoes nowhere near MARTA rail or even bus routes on a regular basis. I've seen MARTA employees sleeping in the pay station areas up at North Springs and Sandy Springs. There's a huge architectural and engineering staff and consulting group that does what, exactly? MARTA hasn't built anything substantive since North Springs station opened in 2002.

To be fair, I don't want to call out MARTA only. GDOT is still a hulking bureaucracy that finds a way to outsource most of its work. Atlanta City Hall, while better than it was, is still a model of inefficiency. All of these agencies have a large number of employees who collect a paycheck but contribute little or nothing to the public good.

When economic times were good, we could afford to support these entitlement programs. Unfortunately, that economic model was unsustainable and now there needs to be a housecleaning across a wide range of local, regional and state agencies to get rid of all the deadweight.

It proves that MARTA's unionized workers are among the lowest paid.

It may not reveal pension and health benefits of MARTA but neither does it for other transportation agencies. So the implication that MARTA's pension and health benefits may be higher should not be inferred.

You seem privy to MARTA, City Hall, GDOT and I don't dispute anything that you said about them. But government workers are under a microscope like no other. There is just as much inefficiencies in the private sector but people don't report it as much. I know the argument, taxpayers pay government workers' salaries. But taxpayers also pay for the private sector too because without the foundation of the banking system, transportation systems, communication systems, etc that the government has laid - private companies would not exist.

If we lay off public/government workers, we get in return unemployment benefits, crime, prisons, loss of sales tax revenues, etc. We let MARTA die and roadways deteriorate, the economy suffers even more.

I believe in efficiency but our economic strife is complex and should be handled delicately. Don't cut off the nose to spite the face.

[dante2308]

Because we posted at the same time, L41A, let me just say that if someone makes a completely factless argument, then the problem isn't ignorance. It is their own need to justify their beliefs and political positions.

You wont solve that with logical appeals.