[cybele]

Well, one thing I always hear is the MARTA doesn't get any money from the state government. Well, in a way they do because the state lets Fulton and Dekalb put on an extra 1% which adds up to something like $300-400 million a year, which comes out to something like $80 a year for every man, woman and little bitty child in the whole dang 20 counties or whatever it is, many of who is way too young to work and lives miles from the nearest MARTA anyway.

Anyway, how much do the other states put in on their transit? Of course when they say the state they mean the taxpayers who live in the state, namely the working man.

So all this about "give them this and give them that", those legislators orto to think about it because it all comes from somebody. I'm just saying.

[shivtim]

Yep, if it passes as currently written, it would allow the 12 county metro Atlanta area to vote to levy a 1% sales tax that could only be used for transportation. This vote could possibly be in November of this year, but would more likely be in 2012.
If passed, that means Fulton and Dekalb shoppers would continue to pay the current 1% for MARTA, and then pay an additional 1% for transportation (that may or may not be able to be spend on MARTA, C-Tran, etc). Meanwhile Cobb, Gwinnett, Clayton, etc would pay just the 1%, as opposed to the current 0% they pay.

[cybele]

Well, I guess you just answered my question before I even asked it.

[shivtim]

cybele, that is ridiculous. The state of Georgia does not give funding to MARTA. Period.
Are you actually claiming that allowing the citizens of Fulton and Dekalb to tax themselves is somehow a state-wide funding source for MARTA? Remember, the citizens voted that they wanted the tax and the system. The only reason we even need to place a special tax for transportation in the first place is because the state is too backwards to invest in transportation infrastructure.

[cybele]

Well, and here's another thing. Suppose they put this new tax on and people in Cobb and Cherokee and Forsyth says, "well, we got twice as many people as the ATL and we are dying for some roads so we are paying most of that money and need it up here". And then Gwinnett gets in on it and says the same thing, and so forth. Who gets it.

[cybele]

cybele, that is ridiculous.

Well, I am just saying it is the state that allows it. The main question I was asking is how much the other states put in on their transit.

[dante2308]

This is quoted and posted for the second time out of their budget document for 2010.

Marta is responsible for maintaining and improving $6.4 billion in
infrastructure that has been built over the years with taxpayer dollars,
but the funding needed to protect that investment is woefully
inadequate.

MARTA spent $100 million dollars in surplus to implement the Breeze card. Is this the kind of investment we can expect in the future? Also have the identified what they will double their taxes for exactly?

[dante2308]

The state and every US taxpayer pays for MARTA because some of it's funding comes out of income taxes.

[shivtim]

The main question I was asking is how much the other states put in on their transit.

For comparison, in 2006, here is the amount some states spent on transit:

Georgia: $4.8 million
Louisiana: $4.9 million
South Carolina: $5.8 million
North Carolina: $155 million

Alaska, Hawaii, Utah: zero
Vermont: $6.1 million
Delaware: $72 million
Texas: $27.7 million
New Jersey: $837 million
Michigan: $209 million
California: $1.3 billion
Massachusetts: $1.29 billion
Florida: $96 million
Wisconsin: $109 million
Illinois: $778 million


For that year, Georgia per capita funding was among the lowest in the country, at 55 cents. We were well behind peer states such as Florida, North Carolina, and Texas.


http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_569.pdf

[cybele]

For comparison, in 2006, here is the amount some states spent on transit:

Well, thank you, shivtim. Then I would say Georgia needs to put in at least as much per head as Texas and N.C., just out of shame alone. Yes, it is forcing millions who don't use it or care 2 hoots about it to pay for it but what is news about that. On that 4.8 million Georgia does put in I wonder who gets it.

One thing I would like to know is where does places like Mass and N.J. come up with all that money. They are either taxing the tarnation out of their people or they have got a pipeline to something?

[dante2308]

States like New Jersey have a rail oriented culture and the train system is a critical component to everyday life and economic activity. Therefore there is a clear line of reasoning for the state to support the transit systems for its own benefit. I don't know where their funding comes from, but I would see how they could make the jump to using income taxes or statewide sales taxes to support their system. I can also see how rail funding could easily pass in voting considering the number of people who use it.

I don't think anyone here has demonstrated why someone in Statesboro, Georgia should have to pay $100 to fund MARTA and how that person would benefit.

[mike1986]

States like New Jersey have a rail oriented culture and the train system is a critical component to everyday life and economic activity. Therefore there is a clear line of reasoning for the state to support the transit systems for its own benefit. I don't know where their funding comes from, but I would see how they could make the jump to using income taxes or statewide sales taxes to support their system. I can also see how rail funding could easily pass in voting considering the number of people who use it.

I don't think anyone here has demonstrated why someone in Statesboro, Georgia should have to pay $100 to fund MARTA and how that person would benefit.

Then you should also ask how would a person in rural southern New Jersey or rural Illinois or rural Texas benefit from their states spending all that money on transit???

Separate comment: Investing in your infrastructure has economic benefits. Indirectly, the whole state actually does benefit from transit investments in the bigger cities because the bigger cities are the economic engines of their states. In order for Atlanta and the state of Georgia to remain competitive, something needs to be done to improve our transportation infrastructure (roads and transit). Georgia should not be spending less than South Carolina on transit! The state should be up there competing with Texas, North Carolina, and Florida.

Can you really not see the bigger picture here?

[dante2308]

Then you should also ask how would a person in rural southern New Jersey or rural Illinois or rural Texas benefit from their states spending all that money on transit???

Separate comment: Investing in your infrastructure has economic benefits. Indirectly, the whole state actually does benefit from transit investments in the bigger cities because the bigger cities are the economic engines of their states. In order for Atlanta and the state of Georgia to remain competitive, something needs to be done to improve our transportation infrastructure (roads and transit). Georgia should not be spending less than South Carolina on transit! The state should be up there competing with Texas, North Carolina, and Florida.

Can you really not see the bigger picture here?

I think that higher taxes reduced Atlanta's competitive advantage which has always been the cost of living and doing business. If we are going to arbitrarily double or triple MARTA's funding, must it not demonstrate the ability or even a proposal to increase economic activity by at least the same amount?

It is starting to become a little clear to me that no one can link MARTA to a tangible statewide economic benefit. Assuming that it benefits the economy because it is technically infrastructure is rather weak and this gigantic funding increase certainly doesn't come in the face of a need.

Catching up to the tax and spending habits of South Carolina is not a valid reason. Georgia competes just fine with the likes of North Carolina, Florida, and Texas even with lower taxes.

I'm willing to support this tax increase in face of a compelling argument as to its benefit, but not because of some nebulous and unidentified "economic benefits" that are apparently so obvious they cannot be explained.

However if this is a transportation tax and not a MARTA tax and it is done through the GDOT I would support a statewide tax if they come forward with some useful proposals.

[shivtim]

^Atlanta's hospitality industry would not exist to the extent it does without MARTA. We would not have gotten the olympics. We would not have the level of business that we have. Look at where all of the major job centers are: all on MARTA lines. Ask yourself why all of the major business organizations in metro Atlanta support MARTA. Why is the Gwinnett Chamber of Commerce supporting MARTA so fervently even though they don't have MARTA in their county? Why has the CEO of Home Depot been such a huge supporter of MARTA and the Beltline? Why do the mayor and all of the former mayors of Atlanta support MARTA? Why does ARC include MARTA expansion in its plans?

According to a May 2007 UGA study by the Carl Vinson Institute, MARTA is responsible for the creation of over 20,000 jobs in Georgia, and has an annual economic impact of $2.1 billion on Georgia's economy.

As far as why someone in Statesboro should spend money on MARTA, why not ask why Atlanta residents should pay for streets in Statesboro? Atlanta absolutely is the economic engine of this state, and keeps the rest of the state afloat. You want to see Georgia without Atlanta? Look at Mississippi.

"In fiscal year 2004 the metropolitan Atlanta area appears to have contributed more to state revenue than it received in state expenditures under the assumptions specified. The Metro10 area of Atlanta is home to approximately 43 percent of the state's population and generated 53 percent of Georgia's total state adjusted gross taxable income. The Metro10 area contributed an estimated 51 percent of total Georgia state revenue. However, the Metro10 area received an estimated 37 percent of state general fund expenditures. The story is similar for the Metro28 area. It comprised approximately 54 percent of the state's population and generated 64 percent of Georgia's total state adjusted gross taxable income. The Metro28 area contributed an estimated 61 percent of total Georgia state revenue but received 47 percent of state general fund expenditures."
http://aysps.gsu.edu/frc/files/Brief_188.pdf

[shivtim]

This document:
http://www.thegta.org/documents/GTAIT3PaperFINAL_001.pdf
also outlines a lot of the direct and indirect economic benefits that transit has in Georgia.

[dante2308]

Alright there were a few hyperboles in there but I'm happy you have cited a study. First off no one is suggesting that Georgia would be better off without Atlanta. That isn't even remotely near what I was asking.

As for the series of rhetorical questions in the first paragraph, if you are asking me to answer them then you may want to consider that I'm the one asking those questions and that reasking them doesn't prove or answer anything.

As for the last paragraph, 43-53 kind of just represents rural poverty than any huge disparity. It kind of leads me to assume that the rest of the state needs more attention but it also doesn't mean that Statesboro can't pay for it's own roads just fine.

I think you missed where I asked what tripling the MARTA taxes at this point or asking for hundreds of millions from the state on top of what MARTA already gets would do for Statesboro.

Now that we have covered that, now to address the 2.1 billion figure. Does that represent business or economic activity that has become entwined with MARTA because it was there or economic activity that would really not exist in any form or niche had MARTA never been there? Also does the study factor in the economic cost of MARTA? Is that a net or just the positive side? I am now reading the report.

HERE FOR ACTUAL UGA REPORT (http://www.cviog.uga.edu/publications/free/marta.pdf)

[shivtim]

You can check it out here: http://www.cviog.uga.edu/publications/free/marta.pdf

"The analysis examined the net economic impact of MARTA employment,
infrastructure investment, and operation expenses. The analysis also estimated the economic impact MARTA generates by effectively expanding the labor pool for Atlanta-area businesses as it provides additional commuting options for workers. The analysis included a full accounting of the public costs of funding MARTA; only those MARTA benefits that can be explicitly and definitively quantified were considered."

So, yes, according to this study, MARTA has a net $2.1 billion economic impact in Georgia. This is conservative, and does not include benefits such as spending by riders who use MARTA to go shopping or the benefit of taking cars off the road (pollution/congestion/health costs/etc).

[shivtim]

Dante, I think I operate along the same thought lines as you. I need to see the numbers; I need to see the studies to believe in something. I have a very scientific mind. I strongly support MARTA, and this is based on all of the research I've seen that shows how strong of a benefit it has.

That being said, I also can appreciate anecdotal evidence, and that fact that I'm a carless person in Atlanta certainly adds to my transit supportive nature. I can empathize with those who can't afford a car or can't drive for other reasons. I also have strong environmental leanings, and enjoy walkable neighborhoods, which helps to explain why I can come off as anti-car.

[dante2308]

You can check it out here: http://www.cviog.uga.edu/publications/free/marta.pdf

"The analysis examined the net economic impact of MARTA employment,
infrastructure investment, and operation expenses. The analysis also estimated the economic impact MARTA generates by effectively expanding the labor pool for Atlanta-area businesses as it provides additional commuting options for workers. The analysis included a full accounting of the public costs of funding MARTA; only those MARTA benefits that can be explicitly and definitively quantified were considered."

So, yes, according to this study, MARTA has a net $2.1 billion economic impact in Georgia. This is conservative, and does not include benefits such as spending by riders who use MARTA to go shopping or the benefit of taking cars off the road (pollution/congestion/health costs/etc).

I've read the report and methodology now. One thing that really struck me was this graph here:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/301/000000gc.jpg

In the face of data (which is all I was really ever asking for) I think I can agree that MARTA has a positive economic impact but I was always pro-transit and in favor of expansion though not sold on heavy rail.

However that graph shows that employment for the rest of the state is negligibly affected and may even have a negative impact.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4899/000000hm.jpg

The same applies for statewide economic activity. In light of this study which I have come to respect through their detailed methodology, I think that perhaps the entire metropolitan region should share the costs of a cost-conscious MARTA and the the rest of the state should develop their own economies using their sales tax income.

Using a much simpler model, MARTA's cost to the government is less than its taxable return in GDP so Statesboro does not benefit from giving MARTA tax revenue in revenue returned according to this study.

[dante2308]

Dante, I think I operate along the same thought lines as you. I need to see the numbers; I need to see the studies to believe in something. I have a very scientific mind. I strongly support MARTA, and this is based on all of the research I've seen that shows how strong of a benefit it has.

That being said, I also can appreciate anecdotal evidence, and that fact that I'm a carless person in Atlanta certainly adds to my transit supportive nature. I can empathize with those who can't afford a car or can't drive for other reasons. I also have strong environmental leanings, and enjoy walkable neighborhoods, which helps to explain why I can come off as anti-car.

Yes we do think alike in almost every way you described here. I think I'm just more skeptical as to the assumed best solutions to the problems. After I have the facts you'll see me rallying for this and that cause. Actually the political thread I created was in part a vehicle for me to pick a political party for example.

[cybele]

States like New Jersey have a rail oriented culture and the train system is a critical component to everyday life and economic activity. Therefore there is a clear line of reasoning for the state to support the transit systems for its own benefit. I don't know where their funding comes from, but I would see how they could make the jump to using income taxes or statewide sales taxes to support their system. I can also see how rail funding could easily pass in voting considering the number of people who use it.


Well, New Jersey is running an $11 billion deficit (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704133804575198141369372302.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop) this year and is on the verge of collapse so I guess they figure what's another measly $837 million. Their property taxes are already the highest in the country. They will probably do like most of them and kick the can on down the road for the younger generation to pay the piper.

[cybele]

Why has the CEO of Home Depot been such a huge supporter of MARTA and the Beltline?

Well somebody orto ask the man why he has got his business out in Cobb County where I don't know how you can even get to on the MARTA.

[delarosa]

Some of you might already read the blog (if so apologies to you for the redundancy), but a brief post regarding oft reported travel time measure.

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/03/illusions-of-travel-time-in-transit-promotion.html

[shivtim]

http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/house-senate-pass-transportation-481503.html

House, Senate pass transportation bill

If the bill becomes law, it also will probably ease the draconian cuts MARTA was facing, though it was unclear Wednesday night by exactly how much. It lifts, for three years, a restriction on how the transit agency can use its revenues from sales taxes, freeing up several million dollars for operations.
*****
The bill now goes to the desk of Gov. Sonny Perdue.
*****
The new tax could not be spent on operations for the current MARTA system, or on raises for MARTA employees. But it could be spent on operations for new MARTA projects.

[mike1986]

http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/house-senate-pass-transportation-481503.html

House, Senate pass transportation bill

Does that mean the new tax could be spent on expanding MARTA or just on operations if it were to expand?

[shivtim]

^I'm not sure. I think we need to wait until the text of the bill is released to see what its really all about. But at the least, the 50/50 restriction is lifted for 3 years.

[Kenneth Disraili]

Well somebody orto ask the man why he has got his business out in Cobb County where I don't know how you can even get to on the MARTA.

That is in fact very strange. I assumed that the Home Depot Corporate Center would have been built in Downtown Atlanta....say at Peachtree and Ellis Streets next to the Georgia Pacific Center, but what do they do, built it in Cobb County and create more suburban sprawl, with no MARTA at all.

[cybele]

That is in fact very strange. I assumed that the Home Depot Corporate Center would have been built in Downtown Atlanta....say at Peachtree and Ellis Streets next to the Georgia Pacific Center, but what do they do, built it in Cobb County and create more suburban sprawl, with no MARTA at all.

Well, it seems like they could have built anywhere intown (midtown, Buckhead, Downtown) or even Perimeter mall if they wanted to use the MARTA. Downtown might not be their cup of tea but if they like city lights and restaurants and hotels and whatnot and want to hook up to the train situation Buckhead or Midtown either one would do the trick. The same down at Perimeter really.

[delarosa]

Well, it seems like they could have built anywhere intown (midtown, Buckhead, Downtown) or even Perimeter mall if they wanted to use the MARTA. Downtown might not be their cup of tea but if they like city lights and restaurants and hotels and whatnot and want to hook up to the train situation Buckhead or Midtown either one would do the trick. The same down at Perimeter really.

My guess is there was considerable incentive thrown their way along with comparatively low cost of building there at the time and buying the land if/when they did. There might also have been some degrees of loyalty/business relationship in play since I think the original HQ was also in Cobb. Proximity to MARTA rail might have been desirable, but simply took a back seat.

[mike1986]

Although Home Depot chose it's location off a MARTA rail line for whatever reason, it is still possible that he supports future expansion of MARTA. Just a guess...

[TarHeelJ]

My guess is there was considerable incentive thrown their way along with comparatively low cost of building there at the time and buying the land if/when they did. There might also have been some degrees of loyalty/business relationship in play since I think the original HQ was also in Cobb. Proximity to MARTA rail might have been desirable, but simply took a back seat.

Exactly...the original Home Depot headquarters was located just inside 285 in Cobb County, while the new headquarters is located just outside 285 approximately half a mile from the original. I worked there during the big move, and I'm pretty sure that there was BIG incentive from Cobb County toward keeping the headquarters there. Besides that, Home Depot is not a company that places high value on it's corporate headquarters (hence the title "Store Support Center")...so it's doubtful that there was much thought put into relocating to a flashy highrise in Downtown/Midtown Atlanta.

[RobMidtowner]

Well, and here's another thing. Suppose they put this new tax on and people in Cobb and Cherokee and Forsyth says, "well, we got twice as many people as the ATL and we are dying for some roads so we are paying most of that money and need it up here". And then Gwinnett gets in on it and says the same thing, and so forth. Who gets it.

A list of predefined projects will be included with the referendum so that regions can vote on it prior to being taxed.

[mike1986]

A list of predefined projects will be included with the referendum so that regions can vote on it prior to being taxed.

I have a feeling a majority of the projects will be for the managed lane system GDOT wants to implement (total cost of the system for the whole metro area is $16 BILLION - I believe there is a funding gap of $7 BILLION for it).

Let's hope MARTA expansion and/or some type of metro commuter rail system is included too.

[WestsideATL]

I have a feeling a majority of the projects will be for the managed lane system GDOT wants to implement (total cost of the system for the whole metro area is $16 BILLION - I believe there is a funding gap of $7 BILLION for it).

Let's hope MARTA expansion and/or some type of metro commuter rail system is included too.

Mike,

I share your concerns. It's not clear who's going to be making the decisions on what is and is not going to be in the TSPLOST for Atlanta, and because it's going to be a referendum they're going to have to try to make it seem like there's something for everyone. When you're talking about major capital projects, the 800-pound gorilla is definitely the managed lane system. If GDOT takes a heavy-handed approach and forces the managed lane projects into the TSPLOST there just won't be enough money left to cover local projects needed to get the referendum votes and then support a major transit project on top of that.

If it comes down to a battle between managed lanes versus new light rail, unfortunately, I just don't see light rail coming out on top. IT3 prioritized managed lanes. In order to get a federal match on transit, there's going to need to be more operating funds committed by local governments to support the new transit services. That's possible, but unlikely until the economy really starts to pick up some steam.

For commuter rail, I don't think the issue has been the lack of capital money (the Lovejoy line has been sitting on $100M+ for years now) but the lack of operating support. I don't think the TSPLOST is going to be the right financial mechanism to close that loop. IMO, best case scenario, a couple of low-cost streetcar projects might get thrown into the mix.

[mike1986]

I'm not against the managed lanes plan, I just hope there are some mass transit projects included in this. I think with the managed lanes plan, we could have a pretty extensive express bus system too (ridership will likely increase because the buses won't be sitting in general purpose lanes traffic like most do now). I'm pretty sure they have funding for and plan to start construction in a year or so on I-85 HOT lanes and the I-75/575, 285 West, and 20 West managed lanes. Since those projects are pretty much "taken care of", that means this new transportation plan will most likely focus on the Revive 285 plan, managed lanes on the connector, and I-75 South managed lanes.

One thing GDOT may have to consider is will people feel like they are being "double taxed" if they vote for the increase and then have to pay a toll for the managed lanes?

For transit, I'd like to see some streetcar projects (would satisfy people in the city and really help make Atlanta more pedestrian friendly, encourage continued urbanization and revitalization of the city, attract more businesses, etc.) and a commuter rail system (would satisfy suburbanites). I would also like to see MARTA expansion to Roswell and Alpharetta, to Fulton Industrial Park, and to Emory (and possibly parts of Gwinnett and Cobb) but I highly doubt that will happen. :(

[dante2308]

GA 400 has a dedicated bus shoulder, but I don't think many people use that part of the bus route. Ironically the train system causes more people to just drive, park, and ride probably mainly because buses don't go anywhere near anyone's actual house in North Fulton.

I'm a little confused as to how MARTA would use managed lanes anyway. Isn't their district somewhat smaller than the perimeter with the exception of north and south Fulton?

[WestsideATL]

I just wonder if the managed lanes are going to be worth billions of dollars. They're very expensive, and for what benefit? So people with extra money to spend can take a shortcut around traffic? To me at least, it seems like DOT is builiding more roads because that's what they've always done, whether it makes good financial sense or not (like Governor's Road Improvement Program). Contractors that do heavy lobbying with the state legislature and the GDOT board, like CW Matthews, also stand to make a pretty penny.

Having the facility be available for transit makes some sense, but really, only 1 GRTA Xpress bus even goes around I-285. Most of the other corridors, at least inside of I-285, already have HOV. Are there enough people on buses going to Kennesaw or McDonough, that it warrants such an investment?

[mike1986]

GA 400 has a dedicated bus shoulder, but I don't think may people use that part of the bus route. Ironically the train system causes more people to just drive, park, and ride probably mainly because buses don't go anywhere near anyone's actual house in North Fulton.

I'm a little confused as to how MARTA would use managed lanes anyway. Isn't their district somewhat smaller than the perimeter with the exception of north and south Fulton?

I was referring to the GRTA express buses, not MARTA buses. MARTA buses are used for city streets in Fulton and Dekalb and would not use the managed lanes. The HOT lane project on I-85 includes the construction of several park and ride lots in Gwinnett County for GRTA express buses. I'm assuming this would happen all over the metro area as the managed lanes get built and that ridership would increase because the buses won't have to sit in regular traffic on the highway.

http://www.xpressga.com/

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/informationcenter/activeprojects/interstates/I85hotlanes/Pages/default.aspx

"In the I-85 north corridor, the CRD funding will provide new park and ride lots at Hamilton Mill and at Cedars Road. In addition, CRD funding will provide the right-of-way for the expansion of the I-985/GA 20 park and ride lot and the purchase of 36 new coaches to support the conversion project. Elsewhere in the region, the CRD funding will allow GRTA to develop the South Xpress Operating Center, construct eight park and ride lots and purchase 46 new coaches for expanded Xpress service. The total cost for the HOT lane tolling system, civil construction, public outreach, transit improvements, and performance monitoring is $182 million."

[WestsideATL]

http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/budget-balloons-for-buses-312546.html

"The express bus system will face a funding crisis by 2012, when operating subsidies run out, transportation officials said. If replacement money is not found, it is uncertain whether the system can continue."

This is from February 2010, and I haven't seen any press since on new, alternative funding sources for GRTA operations. By the time the TSPLOST referendum hits the street in 2012, GRTA could be pulling a C-Tran. :(

[cybele]

GA 400 has a dedicated bus shoulder, but I don't think may people use that part of the bus route.

Well, I have been on that bus a number of times and that shoulder comes in mighty handy at rush hour, they just pull over and keep on rolling and leave all those cars in the dust. You are right that it doesn't take you anywhere, though. You have to get somebody to come pick you up or walk for miles.

[dante2308]

I think the bus system in North Fulton was designed with reverse commuters in mind.

[cybele]

I think the bus system in North Fulton was designed with reverse commuters in mind.

Well that's the thing about transit, you can't favor one bunch over another. The situation has to serve both ways and so forth.

[dante2308]

Well I think the whole idea of MARTA is that it created an area of the city where it is okay to not have a car. That area just didn't happen to extend the 30 miles out to the outer suburbs yet. However the area where there is coverage has yet to be fully exploited so it makes sense that they assumed that connecting all the spread out homes in Alpharetta wouldn't make sense because they chose to live so far from transit in the first place.

They still pay for it though....

[cybele]

Well I think the whole idea of MARTA is that it created an area of the city where it is okay to not have a car. That area just didn't happen to extend the 30 miles out to the outer suburbs yet.

Well, I don't think that was the idea at all. The idea was to give transit to the two counties that was paying for it and putting up with it, not just to make some special zone that covers a few people. It would have never passed if they had said "we are only giving the rapid transit to certain special ones, the rest of you can't use it, you will just get stuck paying for it."

[mike1986]

Interesting article in the AJC about the new transportation bill:

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/04/23/new-transportation-bill-make-a-good-start-at-least/

This part really makes me mad:

"The bill also forbids metro Atlanta from using even a dime of revenue from its regional transportation tax to help MARTA, the financially distressed core of regional public transit, meet its operating needs.

The Augusta region is free to use regional funds to help Augusta Public Transit; the Savannah region can support Chatham Area Transit financially. The Atlanta metro region can even use regional dollars to help Gwinnett County Transit or Cobb Community Transit.

But it cannot help MARTA."

Why!? I don't get it. Under this plan, Fulton and Dekalb are basically going to "double tax" themselves so why can they not use the money for MARTA? I really think the only way to get support is to eliminate MARTA and consolidate the bus and train system into a new regional entity. Otherwise, it's just going to be the same old BS.

The good news is that the state seems to support the Concept 3 plan. Hopefully we can at least get a commuter rail system out of this bill, and possibly the beltline and the streetcar.

[dante2308]

You/they need to read carefully. It says operating needs, not capital expenditures.

[L41A]

Well I think the whole idea of MARTA is that it created an area of the city where it is okay to not have a car. That area just didn't happen to extend the 30 miles out to the outer suburbs yet. However the area where there is coverage has yet to be fully exploited so it makes sense that they assumed that connecting all the spread out homes in Alpharetta wouldn't make sense because they chose to live so far from transit in the first place.

They still pay for it though....

While I'm all for tax revenues being used efficiently, I don't like that ala carte sentiment when it comes to taxes. Taxes suppose to serve the community as a whole. Just because it may seem that you aren't getting any benefit from it, most likely you are - if not directly, indirectly.

It shouldn't be the attitude I don't have children so why I'm paying for schools - I do go to the city parks so why am I paying this tax to the city - I don't use GA 400 so why am I paying to resurface, widen, maintain it - and so on.

Furthermore, anyone who buys anything in Fulton and DeKalb County help pay for MARTA - whether or not they live in Fulton and DeKalb. That's not unique or an unusual burden on the residents of North Fulton/Alpharetta. Sections of NE DeKalb and especially South Fulton have little if any rail/bus service and they pay for it too.

[electricron]

You/they need to read carefully. It says operating needs, not capital expenditures.

What you pointed out is true. Never-the-less, without showing financing for operating and maintenance expenses, no transit agency is ever going to get any Federal funding for capital expenses.

[dante2308]

While I'm all for tax revenues being used efficiently, I don't like that ala carte sentiment when it comes to taxes. Taxes suppose to serve the community as a whole. Just because it may seem that you aren't getting any benefit from it, most likely you are - if not directly, indirectly.

It shouldn't be the attitude I don't have children so why I'm paying for schools - I do go to the city parks so why am I paying this tax to the city - I don't use GA 400 so why am I paying to resurface, widen, maintain it - and so on.

Furthermore, anyone who buys anything in Fulton and DeKalb County help pay for MARTA - whether or not they live in Fulton and DeKalb. That's not unique or an unusual burden on the residents of North Fulton/Alpharetta. Sections of NE DeKalb and especially South Fulton have little if any rail/bus service and they pay for it too.

We already established that the entire metro benefits from MARTA if at different levels whether or not they pay for it or if they have equivalent levels of access to service. Lets not try to read too far into what I said.

[dante2308]

What you pointed out is true. Never-the-less, without showing financing for operating and maintenance expenses, no transit agency is ever going to get any Federal funding for capital expenses.

I heard something about 50/50 being abolished. That would allow MARTA to double its operating costs paid from the original sales tax pie and could at the same time double the capital expenditure from the new tax. Furthermore, taxing a wider area would potentially allow triple or quadruple the capex budget without any additional federal funding.

[mike1986]

I heard something about 50/50 being abolished. That would allow MARTA to double its operating costs paid from the original sales tax pie and could at the same time double the capital expenditure from the new tax. Furthermore, taxing a wider area would potentially allow triple or quadruple the capex budget without any additional federal funding.

It's temporarily "abolished". The 50/50 restriction has been lifted for 3 years only, not permanently. It's better than nothing, but hopefully in the future they can get the restriction lifted for good.

[dante2308]

It's temporarily "abolished". The 50/50 restriction has been lifted for 3 years only, not permanently. It's better than nothing, but hopefully in the future they can get the restriction lifted for good.

Oh I see. The only reason they would do that is so MARTA can cover its funding issues for the short term. Fine.

[Rail Claimore]

What you pointed out is true. Never-the-less, without showing financing for operating and maintenance expenses, no transit agency is ever going to get any Federal funding for capital expenses.

The AJC reported that the money can be used for capital and operating expenses for any new MARTA project (meaning the BeltLine). The only limitation is that it can't be used for the existing system.

Atlanta got a lot from this bill considering all the opposition to MARTA from suburban and rural Republicans.

[dante2308]

I see no problem with this now. It motivates MARTA to bring back the operating expenses in line and allows them 3 years of extra funding to fill the gap. In addition they can expand greatly. I don't like how many times this has been misinterpreted here and in the media though, can someone link the bill?

[cybele]

Well this is probably the durn thing and who was for and against it:

http://www.legis.ga.gov/legis/2009_10/fulltext/hb277.htm

http://www.legis.ga.gov/legis/2009_10/votes/hv0887.htm

[cybele]

Well, I was watching the TV and they said it will still be 15 years before we get any new roads out of this bill. Meanwhile these other states has got their roads and high speed rail and whatnot up and going already. At least the older generation built the MARTA back in the day.

[dante2308]

What? I'm not sure I understand. Don't we have a massive state and federal transportation budget with 86 million going to MARTA alone? Isn't this bill just about icing?

By the way, the energy legislation to be revealed tomorrow is of critical importance to the future of transportation in this and every state. The transportation component seems to be the sticking point at the moment (on top of the GOP refusing to support it if Immigration reform is attempted).

If the bill is revealed tomorrow as planned, I'll go ahead a post a summary of the sections that are relevant to this thread. I don't think a similar thing was done for the stimulus package last year so we can't be sure what effect it had on our transit and transportation infrastructure.

[cybele]

Well, they say the GDOT is broke and doesn't have the basic $300 million they need to apply for federal matching money and doesn't have any bonding capacity. Personally I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me inasmuch as our low gas tax and what-have-you.

[WestsideATL]

I guess we've got a couple of years now to figure this all out. Based on the sales tax yields reported by AJC, the 10-county metro can generate $7.5 billion over 10 years, of which 15% will be committed to local projects. That'll leave us with approximately $6.4 billion to spend on regional projects.

Based on the Statewide Strategic Transportation Plan released this month, GDOT won't be supportive of rail transit in interstate corridors (so scratch the idea of LRT in North Atlanta). For the referendum we're probably going to be looking at HOT and express buses under the guise of BRT similar to what GRTA was pushing a few years back up on I-75. Mayor Reed is pushing the BeltLine, but I'm skeptical that the region will want to fund an economic development project for the City of Atlanta. It's going to be interesting. :koko:

[shivtim]

If the tax passes, Atlanta can use its 15% to help fund the beltline, hopefully with some sort of federal match.

[dante2308]

Nothing wrong with buses. I'm not sure the Beltline is of critical importance but wasn't that paid for too?

[WestsideATL]

If the tax passes, Atlanta can use its 15% to help fund the beltline, hopefully with some sort of federal match.

I think the 15% has to be spread out between the local governments based on how much money they currently get in LARP funds. I don't know what Atlanta's share would be but here's the description from the legislation.

'LARP factor' means the sum of one-fifth of the ratio between the population of a local government's jurisdiction and the total population of the special district in which such local government is located plus four-fifths of the ratio between the paved and unpaved centerline road miles in the local government's jurisdiction and the total paved and unpaved centerline road miles in the special district in which such local government is located.

If you assume Atlanta gets 4% of the 15% (I'm guessing here), that's only $300M over the 10 years. Then, if that's the only project Atlanta decides to spend their money on, it might buy them one quadrant of the BeltLine.

[shivtim]

Won't Fulton county also get some of the 15%? Some of the money that Atlanta gets, combined with soem of the money Fulton would get, plus any federal matches, would go a long way toward funding elements of the beltline.

Personally, I think sidewalks should be the highest transportation priority in Atlanta. You can't have effective transit without good sidewalks, because people can't walk to the stations and bus stops. It also is a huge safety issue. I think PEDS estimated it would cost the city of Atlanta around $75 million or so to fix all of the sidewalks and crosswalks in the city and put new sidewalks in where they are needed. It really is low-hanging fruit.

[WestsideATL]

Sure, Fulton would get some money, but I can pretty much guarantee you that Fulton will want to keep their share in the unincorporated parts of the county.

And I agree wholeheartedly that Atlanta has other things that should be a priority. New sidewalk construction and maintenance has to be at the top of the list. I'd also add that most of the traffic signals in the city are in pretty bad shape and need to be replaced or refurbished.

Going back to the BeltLine, some of the TSPLOST funding together with TAD bonds and a federal match (assuming there's a dedicated long-term local funding source to operate the BeltLine) could theoretically get them started. Mayor Reed just needs to be careful about overpromising, because it's not going to be easy.

[cybele]

Sure, Fulton would get some money, but I can pretty much guarantee you that Fulton will want to keep their share in the unincorporated parts of the county.

Well, what about Johns Creek and East Point and Milton and Roswell and Sandy Springs and College Park and Alpharetta and what-have-you, they are all pretty good sized cities. They will have to get a cut of Fulton's money too, I imagine.


I agree with y'all on the sidewalks, that makes a lot of sense.

[WestsideATL]

I don't know how the LARP stuff works but I imagine each local government (whether an unincorporated county or a municipality) would get an allocation of funding based on the formula described in the legislation. So, if the formula does what it's supposed to, everyone should get their fair share.

[cybele]

Well I'm glad I am not the only one getting tangled up on the high speed light rail thing.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/local/as-tampa-bay-area-rail-projects-move-forward-confusion-reigns/1090305

[cybele]

Another MARTA board shake-up? (http://blogs.ajc.com/gold-dome-live/2010/04/27/another-marta-board-shake-up/?cxntfid=blogs_gold_dome_live)

House Speaker pro Tempore Jan Jones said that the legislation (an amendment to SB 22) would reduce the current MARTA board from 18 to 13 voting members, with three appointed by the state. The governor, lieutenant governor and speaker would each appoint one voting member to make up that three. In addition, the Department of Transportation commissioner and the Georgia Regional Transportation Authority director would have non-voting seats.

Jones said it was to ensure balance on the board and make sure Fulton and DeKalb taxpayers were protected.

According to a copy of the amendment, this is how the 13 voting seats would break down:

State – 3

City of Atlanta – 3

DeKalb County – 4 (at least 1 from north DeKalb, at least 1 from south DeKalb)

Fulton County – 3 (1 from south Fulton, 2 from north Fulton)

Jones pointed out that nearly all of Fulton County’s population lives in municipalities, so it only made sense for mayors to make the appointments. She also said it was about protecting taxpayers.

[smArTaLlone]

A regional transit system for Atlanta, long a wishful concept among planning-policy wonks, soon could become the focus of Georgia lawmakers and transit agency officials with the power to make it happen.

Buried in the back of a long-awaited transportation funding bill passed by the General Assembly April 21 is a provision creating a commission to explore the feasibility of combining the hodgepodge of transit systems now operating independently — including MARTA — into “an integrated regional transit body.”

The transit agencies have been working with the Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC) for more than three years on a plan to consolidate transit governance in metro Atlanta under a single entity, an effort that culminated late last year in the formation of a multi-agency panel known as the Regional Transit Committee (RTC).

But if Gov. Sonny Perdue signs the transportation bill into law, the Transit Governance Study Commission would bring legislators into the loop for the first time and set specific deadlines.

The bill requires the commission to deliver a preliminary report by the end of this year and a final report by Aug. 1, 2011, in plenty of time for the legislature to act on its findings during the 2012 session.

Transportation bill boosts regional transit efforts (http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/05/03/story1.html?b=1272859200^3271901)- Atlanta Business Chronicle:

[jacksonart55]

This sounds so awesome, but looking back at our track record, I have to say I really hope that this works. One regional transit system is definitely better than five.

[cybele]

Now here's a man who gets into this whole car vs. transit thing and makes a bunch of points using facts and whatnot.

Left-Brain vs. Right-Brain Debate (http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=2983#more-2983)


On Wednesday, April 14, the Antiplanner had the honor of debating James Kunstler, the famous author of Geography of Nowhere and The Long Emergency. The students at Brown University who set this up chose the topic, “Building America: Who Should Control Urban Growth–Planners or Markets?”

I’ve never met Kunstler before, and I was a bit nervous since he hasn’t exactly been friendly on his blog. But he turned out to be very warm and congenial. We share many recreation interests and I am sure we could be friends if we didn’t live on opposite sides of the country, which (despite our mobility) might be a bigger barrier than being on opposite sides of the political debate.

Kunstler and I were each asked to speak for 25 minutes, after which we were invited to ask each other one question. Then the floor was opened to questions from the audience, mostly (I was told) students in political science, environmental studies, urban planning, and economics.

Before we began, I mentioned to one of the students that we probably weren’t really going to debate the issues; instead, we would be presenting alternative approaches to the issues. Kunstler has a right-brained approach, based on intuition and emotion, while I have a left-brained approach, based on logic and numbers. This prediction turned out to be correct.

Kunstler’s presentation made a very simple argument: oil production is about to peak, after which prices will steeply rise. This will render automobiles too expensive to drive (because no other fuel will do) and make the suburbs obsolete. He didn’t provide any evidence for any of these assertions, instead relying on hyperbole and a PowerPoint show that consisted mostly of cartoonish illustrations of the apocalypse.

My presentation (http://ti.org/ROTatBrown.ppt) (PDF version (http://ti.org/ROTatBrown.pdf) both versions are about 30 megabytes) tried to make four points: automobiles and low-density development produce far more benefits than costs; those costs have been greatly exaggerated by auto opponents; the “smart-growth” cure is worse than the disease of urban sprawl; and the real solution to the problems that do exist is to create systems that give people freedom to choose how they want to live and travel but make sure they pay the full costs of those choices.

[shivtim]

New 10 minute video on Atlanta sprawl. First in a series called "American Makeover."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoVXoB6x3vM

[smArTaLlone]

New 10 minute video on Atlanta sprawl. First in a series called "American Makeover."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoVXoB6x3vM

Not sure its transit related but great video. Its harsh but accurate.

[Curious Atlantan]

Now here's a man who gets into this whole car vs. transit thing and makes a bunch of points using facts and whatnot.

Left-Brain vs. Right-Brain Debate (http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=2983#more-2983)

I am not so sure about these "facts". It is well known that one can justify almost anything with stats, by tweaking the experiment or questions so that the obtained answer is the expected one. Then one presents these stats as facts or "scientific" proof. It gets the weight and credibility of science thus much easier to manipulate with...
I did not read these "facts" but I doubt they are unbiased but most likely some tweaked stats to promote the cause of highway builders and oil companies.

- btw the "antiplanner" is none other but our friend Randall O'Toole

[shivtim]

Not sure its transit related but great video. Its harsh but accurate.

Yeah I wasn't sure where to post it - but it was talking about smart growth, a major component of which is transit. Maybe it should be moved to Community discussion thread? I don't know, there isn't really a "general atlanta" thread.

[TarHeelJ]

Yeah I wasn't sure where to post it - but it was talking about smart growth, a major component of which is transit. Maybe it should be moved to Community discussion thread? I don't know, there isn't really a "general atlanta" thread.

The video lost some credibility at the very beginning when it highlighted the size of Atlanta in 1850 (3.1 sqmi) and 1950 (130 sqmi) compared to today...but for 2010 they used the size of Metro Atlanta, not the city. The city of Atlanta is 132 square miles - so we've only grown slightly. :)

[reet]

The video lost some credibility at the very beginning when it highlighted the size of Atlanta in 1850 (3.1 sqmi) and 1950 (130 sqmi) compared to today...but for 2010 they used the size of Metro Atlanta, not the city. The city of Atlanta is 132 square miles - so we've only grown slightly. :)

They lost me when they found Glenwood Park to be the antidote to traffic and sprawl. Though nicely compact and containing a couple of restaurants and a park, GP is mostly car-centric urbanism. No MARTA train or bike lanes connect it to job centers or a grocery store. I'm guessing the affluent residents aren't going to be hopping on a bus. No, they're going to drive to jobs and groceries and many other things just as often as anyone in an exurb -- using the handy adjacent I-20 entrance ramp. It's very pretty and a small step in the right direction, but it's no antidote.

[L41A]

The video lost some credibility at the very beginning when it highlighted the size of Atlanta in 1850 (3.1 sqmi) and 1950 (130 sqmi) compared to today...but for 2010 they used the size of Metro Atlanta, not the city. The city of Atlanta is 132 square miles - so we've only grown slightly. :)

I noticed that too and that is when it started to lose credibility with me as well. It was almost like a commercial for Glenwood Park.

[cybele]

Well, this is saying the leaders from the ATL who we sent out to Phoenix I guess have been looking at their high speed light rail situation so who knows.


Universities – linked by transit – can play a vital role in reinvigorating our cities (http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3870)

[smArTaLlone]

Marietta Daily Journal

County leaders hope to have light rail public transportation from Kennesaw to Cumberland Mall built and operational by 2019.

The plan is to have 14.6 miles of above-ground track erected beside Cobb Parkway, which could later connect to MARTA stations. The $2 billion proposed project also includes buses that would circulate around the Town Center area to the north and the Cumberland area to the south.

It can be done, leaders said Tuesday as they toured the corridor in a Cobb Community Transit bus and listened to a presentation at KSU.

"We have a very aggressive plan in place, to have this start construction in eight years," said Faye DiMassimo, Cobb Department of Transportation director. "It can take up to 12, and it takes a while to keep the public involved and get approval along the way from the (Federal Transit Administration), but we feel we can do it."

The plan includes seven light rail stations from Kennesaw to Cumberland, with stops at KSU, Town Center, WellStar Kennestone Hospital, Southern Polytechnic State University, Dobbins Air Reserve Base, Windy Ridge Parkway and Cumberland Mall. The stations around Kennesaw and the Cumberland/Galleria area would be transit stations, where passengers could exit the railcars and board buses. Those buses would travel to 33 bus stops throughout the Cumberland Mall/Galleria area and 21 stops around KSU and Town Center at Cobb mall.

The project is estimated to cost almost $2 billion, with funding coming from an 80 percent federal, 20 percent local match and other sources, including: fare revenue; Town Center Community Improvement District and Cumberland Community Improvement District donations; participation from cities and the county; a possible Transportation Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax; and the 1 percent regional transportation sales tax recently passed by the state legislature, DiMassimo said.

DiMassimo said the next step for the project is to begin receiving public input through forums, which will begin in the fall. Once input is received, DiMassimo will then go before the Board of Commissioners to ask for the 80/20 match with the federal government to create the Alternatives Analysis and Environmental Impact Statement. DiMassimo said this should happen sometime before August 2011 and that the county hopes to have the project operational by November 2019.


http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/7299668/article-Leaders--Light-rail-could-happen-by-2019?instance=home_news_1st_right

[reet]

Marietta Daily Journal

County leaders hope to have light rail public transportation from Kennesaw to Cumberland Mall built and operational by 2019...

Hmmm...so, a county that is famously overflowing with perfect examples of car-centric sprawl is expecting 80% federal funding on a $2 billion light rail project that features stops at two different asphalt-laden suburban mega malls. I give them credit for ambition.

I'd love to see the county of my birth develop a convenient, popular transit route through key areas, especially those containing college students. But I'd feel more optimistic if there was a concurrent plan to build a more walkable environment and additional nodes of attractive, multi-family housing near the transit line.

I lived near the Galleria for 5 years in an apartment and remember going for jogs on all the nice sidewalks that served little purpose other than exercise trails in such a car-dependent built environment. It seems like a transit station in the middle of all that would be just one more driving destination for most people. I'd love to be wrong about that, though. I've certainly been surprised by the unlikely successes with light rail in Charlotte and Phoenix. Maybe Cobb will surprise me too.

[cybele]

Well, here is something that says the ATL may get a streetcar in 2 years (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=22-cities-that-may-have-new-streetc-2010-04). I wouldn't count those people down in Cobb out, they have a real can-do attitude once they get onto something. However, why make it mainly for the college students instead of average people.

[WestsideATL]

It's really ridiculous that these well-respected people are calling a standalone rail corridor between two malls "feasible." I guess Galleria is a decently dense job center, but most people I know from Cobb commute over to Perimeter, up to Alpharetta or into Midtown/Downtown. Who would use this that don't already use the CCT 10? Not many commuters...

If we want to do LRT on the northside, Cobb, Fulton, DeKalb and Gwinnett need to swallow their pride and develop a system that ties regional destinations together. It smells like a Gwinnett vs. Cobb fight is brewing and that's not going to be good for the region, or for a single project's chances of securing FTA funding.

[reet]

If we want to do LRT on the northside, Cobb, Fulton, DeKalb and Gwinnett need to swallow their pride and develop a system that ties regional destinations together. It smells like a Gwinnett vs. Cobb fight is brewing and that's not going to be good for the region, or for a single project's chances of securing FTA funding.

Good point. A project that ties business centers and residential density (such as apartments, condos and student housing) together throughout the northern metro counties would be more sensible and would have a better chance of attracting that percentage of federal funding than this current proposal.

[cybele]

Well, here's a thing if they use it right.

Atlanta Beltline Gets Cleanup Help (http://www.atlantarealestateforum.com/atlanta-beltline-gets-cleanup-help-24188/)

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Assistant Administrator of the Office of Solid Waste and Emergency Response (OSWER) Mathy Stanislaus recently announced a $400,000 grant to the City of Atlanta to clean up sites known as brownfields along the Atlanta BeltLine and other redevelopment corridors

[Rail Claimore]

Marietta Daily Journal

County leaders hope to have light rail public transportation from Kennesaw to Cumberland Mall built and operational by 2019.

The plan is to have 14.6 miles of above-ground track erected beside Cobb Parkway, which could later connect to MARTA stations. The $2 billion proposed project also includes buses that would circulate around the Town Center area to the north and the Cumberland area to the south.

It can be done, leaders said Tuesday as they toured the corridor in a Cobb Community Transit bus and listened to a presentation at KSU.

"We have a very aggressive plan in place, to have this start construction in eight years," said Faye DiMassimo, Cobb Department of Transportation director. "It can take up to 12, and it takes a while to keep the public involved and get approval along the way from the (Federal Transit Administration), but we feel we can do it."

The plan includes seven light rail stations from Kennesaw to Cumberland, with stops at KSU, Town Center, WellStar Kennestone Hospital, Southern Polytechnic State University, Dobbins Air Reserve Base, Windy Ridge Parkway and Cumberland Mall. The stations around Kennesaw and the Cumberland/Galleria area would be transit stations, where passengers could exit the railcars and board buses. Those buses would travel to 33 bus stops throughout the Cumberland Mall/Galleria area and 21 stops around KSU and Town Center at Cobb mall.

The project is estimated to cost almost $2 billion, with funding coming from an 80 percent federal, 20 percent local match and other sources, including: fare revenue; Town Center Community Improvement District and Cumberland Community Improvement District donations; participation from cities and the county; a possible Transportation Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax; and the 1 percent regional transportation sales tax recently passed by the state legislature, DiMassimo said.

DiMassimo said the next step for the project is to begin receiving public input through forums, which will begin in the fall. Once input is received, DiMassimo will then go before the Board of Commissioners to ask for the 80/20 match with the federal government to create the Alternatives Analysis and Environmental Impact Statement. DiMassimo said this should happen sometime before August 2011 and that the county hopes to have the project operational by November 2019.


http://www.mdjonline.com/view/full_story/7299668/article-Leaders--Light-rail-could-happen-by-2019?instance=home_news_1st_right

No stops in Downtown Marietta? That's just great.

[WestsideATL]

No stops in Downtown Marietta? That's just great.

Now, it's coming from the Marietta Daily Journal, which is typically rife with errors, but good point.

As I see it, there are really only two good ways to get from SPSU to Kennestone: South 120-Fairground-Chicopee or South 120-Cherokee/Church going through the Square. From a land use/destination perspective, the Square makes the most sense, however, whenever a freight train rolls through (and they do frequently), traffic in Square grinds to a halt. It would probably be difficult to run a reliable schedule through there with those fluctuations in congestion.

[cybele]

One thing about Cobb, you have to give them credit for jumping out ahead of the pack. That one line alone will probably be more than lots of whole cities has.

[WestsideATL]

One thing about Cobb, you have to give them credit for jumping out ahead of the pack. That one line alone will probably be more than lots of whole cities has.

They're actually behind the pack. The article notes that Cobb hasn't done anything on the project since 2001. GDOT and Gwinnett have been working on their own LRT projects (paralleling I-285 and I-85) for some time now.

[SAV]

They're actually behind the pack. The article notes that Cobb hasn't done anything on the project since 2001. GDOT and Gwinnett have been working on their own LRT projects (paralleling I-285 and I-85) for some time now.

Actually both counties should have join MARTA 35 years ago. And now the whole region is behind the pack.

Someone needs to come in and put all these little transportation agencies under one umbrella and have them function as one. I hate how divided this region is.

[Hybrid0NE]

No stops in Downtown Marietta? That's just great.

Now, it's coming from the Marietta Daily Journal, which is typically rife with errors, but good point.

As I see it, there are really only two good ways to get from SPSU to Kennestone: South 120-Fairground-Chicopee or South 120-Cherokee/Church going through the Square. From a land use/destination perspective, the Square makes the most sense, however, whenever a freight train rolls through (and they do frequently), traffic in Square grinds to a halt. It would probably be difficult to run a reliable schedule through there with those fluctuations in congestion.

I was also struck by the fact that there would be no stop(s) planned for Marietta Square, with the path exclusively following Cobb Parkway. I'm guessing, the price of tunneling a segment underground (the best approach) to reach it may be too prohibitive?

Wishfully, it'll get added to the drawing board. Downtown Marietta is very walkable and has an urban vibe to it. I could see a light-rail station making it even more inviting and developable. Maybe it could reposition itself as a more bustling (Atlantic Station, Buckhead, Midtown, Perimeter) part of the region, although Cumberland's uber-sprawl will remain Cobb's pot-of-gold.

[Rail Claimore]

I was also struck by the fact that there would be no stop(s) planned for Marietta Square, with the path exclusively following Cobb Parkway. I'm guessing, the price of tunneling a segment underground (the best approach) to reach it may be too prohibitive?

Wishfully, it'll get added to the drawing board. Downtown Marietta is very walkable and has an urban vibe to it. I could see a light-rail station making it even more inviting and developable. Maybe it could reposition itself as a more bustling (Atlantic Station, Buckhead, Midtown, Perimeter) part of the region, although Cumberland's uber-sprawl will remain Cobb's pot-of-gold.

Downtown Marietta hands down is the largest contiguous area of urban form (if somewhat underutilized) in the metro area outside the City of Atlanta (Decatur included). Not having at least one, if not two stations, as part of at least one alternative somewhere in that street grid is pure sin. I'd love to see it go underground as well.

[cybele]

Another thing that would be a good investment would be to go back and fix some of those stations on the MARTA so they are easy to walk right up to them and they don't have parking lots and whatnot all around them. One of the worst is that East Lake situation but there is a lots that are just as bad. The last time we were there it was like a fort which you needed a map to figure out how to get into.

[smArTaLlone]

Actually both counties should have join MARTA 35 years ago. And now the whole region is behind the pack.

Someone needs to come in and put all these little transportation agencies under one umbrella and have them function as one. I hate how divided this region is.

Perhaps you missed this but the new transportation bill takes a small step in that direction. It includes a provision to study combining all the region's transit agencies.



Buried in the back of a long-awaited transportation funding bill passed by the General Assembly April 21 is a provision creating a commission to explore the feasibility of combining the hodgepodge of transit systems now operating independently — including MARTA — into “an integrated regional transit body.”

The transit agencies have been working with the Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC) for more than three years on a plan to consolidate transit governance in metro Atlanta under a single entity, an effort that culminated late last year in the formation of a multi-agency panel known as the Regional Transit Committee (RTC).

The bill requires the commission to deliver a preliminary report by the end of this year and a final report by Aug. 1, 2011, in plenty of time for the legislature to act on its findings during the 2012 session.

Transportation bill boosts regional transit efforts (http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/05/03/story1.html?b=1272859200^3271901)- Atlanta Business Chronicle:

[cybele]

Well, here's something that says the transportation thing came down against the MARTA.

Transportation bill gives transit and MARTA the short shrift, improvements needed in 2011 (http://saportareport.com/blog/?p=3922)

It’s just not good enough.

There’s a lot of patting on back going on in this town. After years of failed attempts, the Georgia legislature finally passed a bill that will allow 12 different regions in the state to pass a one-penny sales tax for their transportation needs.

But this bill is flawed. And patting ourselves on the back is premature at best.

The flaw? The bill falls short in helping the Atlanta region pay for its transit needs — arguably the greatest need that we have.

Then there’s the maliciousness of this bill against MARTA — the largest transit agency in the state and the one that is the backbone for all the other transit systems in the region.

What a disappointment House Speaker Pro Tem Jan Jones (R-Alpharetta) has turned out to be.

Thanks to her insistence, MARTA got screwed — plain and simple.

[Fiorenza]

By and large Atlanta doesn't share the same political and economic viewpoints as the suburbs and the rest of the state. It figures that Atlanta will end up being screwed by the legislature.

On the other hand there are a lot of state employees working (more or less) and living in the city.

[WestsideATL]

Not to be too much of a negative Nancy, I do agree that transit should play a more substantive role in the project list and I believe at least one or two good projects will make the cut; however, I'm really getting tired of MARTA and their media advocates constantly casting the Authority as a victim to try and generate enough sympathy for a bailout (which MARTA did get last year through the stimulus/ARC re-budgeting).

I don't consider the TSPLOST legislation to be at all malicious towards MARTA, rather, it is simply being protective of Fulton and DeKalb residents who are already shouldering the burden of a 1-cent sales tax for MARTA. None of the other systems in the state have a pre-existing sales tax set-aside for transit.

The Transportation Act of 2010 again set the 50/50 rule aside for MARTA at MARTA's request and did allow for the TSPLOST money to cover the costs of any new projects that might happen to be in MARTA's service area (for example, if the BeltLine were to be part of the TSPLOST and MARTA was the service provider, sales tax revenue could be used to build and operate the service during the 10-year period). The TSPLOST revenues just can't be used to support existing service that the existing 1-cent is supposed to be paying for. Doesn't seem too unfair to me. :shrug:

[WestsideATL]

In case anyone missed it, there's a good article by Kyle Wingfield over at the AJC on MARTA and their financial "crisis."

http://blogs.ajc.com/kyle-wingfield/2010/05/14/its-time-to-end-martas-boom-and-bust-budgeting/

[cybele]

Well, it seems to me this transit situation comes down to whether people want it and (b) are willing to pay for it. Until you get that worked out and can show a man it is going to help him and save him money you can talk to him till you are blue in the face. It's got to get him where he needs to go when he needs to get there for a decent price, which is going to be paid by who? Unless he sees it as a good thing, why would he go for it?

That is how we got the MARTA built back in the day, which is probably what they are doing in all these other cities where they are putting in the high speed light rail.

[WestsideATL]

Cybele, I think you missed the point of the article.

MARTA gets the majority of its funding through the 1% sales tax in the City of Atlanta and Fulton and DeKalb Counties. It's difficult to build a budget around a sales tax, because it varies with economic cycles (i.e. peaks and valleys). The problem is that MARTA tends to put out service they can afford during the rich years only to have to cry for help and end up making "draconian" cuts during the lean years. Based on my reading of the article, MARTA just needs to be more fiscally conservative as to how much service they put out on the street.