[Chris Creech]

I'm remember back when Barnes was in office he did have some much more transit-friendly planning going on then we see today. Barnes actually had a plan, it was one of the first things that Purdue scrapped when he got in office. IF he gets elected, how does everyone see that affecting transportation in the state?

[foxmccleod]

The ABC has the story on the multimodal station. Basically, the project is moving forward if someone steps up to help build it, and a winner could be announced next May.

Multimodal gets Moving
Atlanta Business Chronicle - by Dave Williams

http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/07/19/story1.html?b=1279512000^3652341

The Georgia Department of Transportation announced its intention July 14 to hire a “master developer” to put together a plan for the long-awaited Multimodal Passenger Terminal to serve as a hub for bus and rail service radiating from the city.

Under the DOT’s timetable, the search will begin with a request for qualifications to be issued in September and culminate with the selection of the winning bidder next May. The huge facility would have room for 400 buses and eight tracks for MARTA, commuter and inter-city passenger trains. Atop the transit terminal would be a commercial, retail and residential complex the project’s boosters are calling the downtown version of Atlantic Station...

[cybele]

Well, here is some new info on the MARTA and who is riding on it and why and so forth.

Transit beckons in far-flung metro Atlanta (http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/transit-beckons-in-far-571625.html)

After a major study, the Atlanta Regional Commission knows a lot more about who takes transit in the area and why. But the numbers, released Thursday, also beg the question: As the Atlanta region prepares for a referendum on funding regional transportation projects, is there really demand for regional mass transit?

The ARC has conducted what it calls one of the largest and most comprehensive surveys in the U.S. of passengers on board seven Atlanta-area mass transit systems.


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4101/4800462984_565691b5a6_b.jpg

[Pessimistic Observer]

Well, here is some new info on the MARTA and who is riding on it and why and so forth.




http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4101/4800462984_565691b5a6_b.jpg

"Part of the problem you’re looking at now is chicken and an egg," she said.
the quotes from beverly scott who says reason gwinnett and cobb were so low is cause they have few options
so whats the point of surveying counties that only have a few bus lines for transit?
on a more positive note campaining for transportation funding is set to start soon
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/07/12/daily60.html
and thanks to sarah palin oxedine might actually lose the primary
any ideas on Karen Handel's possition on regional transportation funding

[jacksonart55]

It's important to note that the full article says that many, many people come in from far-flung counties (Douglas, Newton, Hall, Henry, etc.), and will park their cars at MARTA Stations and Commuter Bus Lots and take those into the city. Many more people from other counties besides Fulton, and Dekalb use pubic transit, but you don't see it because of what I explained above.

the quotes from beverly scott who says reason gwinnett and cobb were so low is cause they have few options
so whats the point of surveying counties that only have a few bus lines for transit?

I guess just to be comprehensive. Also, it does (eh...kinda) prove the point that very little transit options are available outside of Dekalb and Fulton Counties.

[BlindFatSnake]

I'm remember back when Barnes was in office he did have some much more transit-friendly planning going on then we see today. Barnes actually had a plan, it was one of the first things that Purdue scrapped when he got in office. IF he gets elected, how does everyone see that affecting transportation in the state?

CC, you're absolutely right about red-faced Purdue... He couldn't wait to dismantle what Barnes had begun... Just think if Barnes had been elected - our current transit systems would have been competitive with other southern states. Purdue set Georgia back 20 years.

If Barnes gets elected (and I think he will), mass transit will take off like a rocket. Barnes knows we cannot continue to pave over metro Atlanta with asphalt, and that our southern competitors are racking up federal funds with their transit-friendly plans for the future.

Purdue had to be hit over the head by the Obama administration before he and the republicans would even sign a transportation/transit bill.

The 1st thing Barnes should do (after signing the official swearing in papers) is march over to the capital and abolish the "executive overseer", the "dictator-in-chief", who will have the power in 2012 to dictate which transportation/transit projects districts can put on the ballot for local voters.

Now that's bullshit, plain and simple... U feel me???? :hell:

[cybele]

Well, Obama was in town but did anybody take him over to see the Beltline and whatnot?

[cybele]

Well, here is a thing that says Obama and his people are putting the high speed rail thing in Wisconsin even if they don't want it and we can't get one on the Beltline for another 25 years or whatever.

LaHood says high-speed rail is done deal for Wisconsin (http://www.biztimes.com/news/2010/7/23/lahood-says-high-speed-rail-is-done-deal-for-wisconsin)

[BlindFatSnake]

Well, here is a thing that says Obama and his people are putting the high speed rail thing in Wisconsin even if they don't want it and we can't get one on the Beltline for another 25 years or whatever.

LaHood says high-speed rail is done deal for Wisconsin (http://www.biztimes.com/news/2010/7/23/lahood-says-high-speed-rail-is-done-deal-for-wisconsin)

Cybele, what in the hell are u talking about????

The Beltline will be funded through a 1 cent sales tax if the voters of the 10-county ARC district approve a list of projects in 2012. Light rail does NOT take that long to build.

Charlotte built the 9.6 mile Lynx line within 6 years (from planning to operation). The Beltline is only 22 miles long.

Take note: Charlotteans approved a .50 cent sales taxes for rail transit... Atlanta will have a 1 cent sales tax for transit and road transporation. Go figure... And we have a bigger population base.

[cybele]

Well, all right, no need to get down on a man on account of one mistake. All I'm saying is they have been talking about the Beltline thing for about 10 years and the last I heard it was going to be 20 or 30 more before they got the HSR going. When is it opening and so forth.

[BlindFatSnake]

Well, all right, no need to get down on a man on account of one mistake. All I'm saying is they have been talking about the Beltline thing for about 10 years and the last I heard it was going to be 20 or 30 more before they got the HSR going. When is it opening and so forth.

Cybele, please get the skinny on your "rail verbage"... Not being an *ss, just want to have a better convo with ya..

HSR - High Speed Rail = 130 mhp maximum speed (intracity travel)
HR - Heavy Rail = 55- 75 mph (average speed)
LR - Light Rail = 35 - 55 mph (average speed)
SC - Streetcar = 10 - 20 mph (mostly a tourist ridership)
T - Trolley = 5 - 10 mph (definitely a tourist thing) you might as well walk :jester:

[cybele]

Cybele, please get the skinny on your "rail verbage"... Not being an *ss, just want to have a better convo with ya..

HSR - High Speed Rail = 130 mhp maximum speed (intracity travel)
HR - Heavy Rail = 55- 75 mph (average speed)
LR - Light Rail = 35 - 55 mph (average speed)
SC - Streetcar = 10 - 20 mph (mostly a tourist ridership)
T - Trolley = 5 - 10 mph (definitely a tourist thing) you might as well walk :jester:

Well, all right, I will get on it. Which one is going in the Beltline?

Also, where does your high speed light rail fit in?

[BlindFatSnake]

Well, all right, I will get on it. Which one is going in the Beltline?

Also, where does your high speed light rail fit in?

?#1 = Light rail (think Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix)...

?#2 = It doesn't... That would be NC and Florida.

Georgia lost out on the HSR funding due to "not having its act together". In other words, holding onto federal funds for a commuter rail from downtown to Love Joy for 10+ years, and Georgia politicans sticking it to MARTA because they could, and the ARC proposing 100% financing for streetcars in downtown/midtown, and light rail proposals by Gwinnett/Cobb being last-minute proposals...

But, good ole Roy Barnes is headed back to the gov's mansion.... just maybe, the tide has turned...

[WestsideATL]

?#1 = Light rail (think Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix)...

?#2 = It doesn't... That would be NC and Florida.

#1 - ABI and MARTA haven't made a final determination on what the technology should be for the BeltLine other than that it won't be bus rapid transit. At this point, it could be either LRT or streetcar.

#2 - High speed light rail does not exist. There's high speed rail, which is not light at all and typically hits speeds over 89 mph. And there's light rail, which is not high speed. Depending on the vehicle, LRT systems only top out at speeds of 55-65 mph.

[Pessimistic Observer]

#1 - ABI and MARTA haven't made a final determination on what the technology should be for the BeltLine other than that it won't be bus rapid transit. At this point, it could be either LRT or streetcar.

#2 - High speed light rail does not exist. There's high speed rail, which is not light at all and typically hits speeds over 89 mph. And there's light rail, which is not high speed. Depending on the vehicle, LRT systems only top out at speeds of 55-65 mph.

and then theres this (http://www.slashgear.com/mega-straddle-bus-conceptualized-for-china-fits-1200-passengers-0496585/)
the bus/train that drives over cars
http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Mega-Straddle-Bus-540x201.jpg

[cybele]

#2 - High speed light rail does not exist. There's high speed rail, which is not light at all and typically hits speeds over 89 mph. And there's light rail, which is not high speed.


Well, then what in tarnation is this?

Obama's high-speed light rail plan (http://green.yahoo.com/blog/daily_green_news/24/obama-s-high-speed-light-rail-plan.html)

[Pessimistic Observer]

Well, then what in tarnation is this?

Obama's high-speed light rail plan (http://green.yahoo.com/blog/daily_green_news/24/obama-s-high-speed-light-rail-plan.html)

thats either a misprint or a common misnomer those high speed trains
weigh alot more than light rail trains

[cybele]

Well, they have quite a bit on it in the Google.

Such as More High-speed Light Rail, Pronto! (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Energy-Matters/More-High-speed-Light-Rail-Pronto.aspx).

[Pessimistic Observer]

Well, they have quite a bit on it in the Google.

Such as More High-speed Light Rail, Pronto! (http://www.motherearthnews.com/Energy-Matters/More-High-speed-Light-Rail-Pronto.aspx).

ill trust en.wikipedia which has an article for high speed rail and an article for light rail seperate
the term high speed light rail may make sense but doesnt really ring true when high speed trains weigh more than light rail trains that go slower

[Fiorenza]

http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/09/cities-transportation-class-opinions-columnists-joel-kotkin.html?boxes=Homepagechannels

[cybele]

http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/09/cities-transportation-class-opinions-columnists-joel-kotkin.html?boxes=Homepagechannels

Well, if the man's facts and figures are right he has got a point.

[Uptowngirl]

Well, if the man's facts and figures are right he has got a point.

1. Kotkin is a shrill for anti-transit oriented urban sprawl.

2. The problem is (and what made streetcars different), the stations are not placed where someone can walk to them. Look at old streetcar plans...and you see how they ran through most every major thoroughfare...
When I lived in Woodstock...so many people told me to drive to Dunwoody and take MARTA into downtown...but that wasn't any easier than just sitting in traffic hell all the way into downtown.

3. Buses are far too slow and generally only poor people will ride them (I try to avoid them myself because you could die of old age before you get to work)

[BlindFatSnake]

1. Kotkin is a shrill for anti-transit oriented urban sprawl.

2. The problem is (and what made streetcars different), the stations are not placed where someone can walk to them. Look at old streetcar plans...and you see how they ran through most every major thoroughfare...
When I lived in Woodstock...so many people told me to drive to Dunwoody and take MARTA into downtown...but that wasn't any easier than just sitting in traffic hell all the way into downtown.

3. Buses are far too slow and generally only poor people will ride them (I try to avoid them myself because you could die of old age before you get to work)

To hitch a ride on Uptowngirl's thoughts, 1) Kotkin conveniently left out Chicago and San Francisco mass transit systems, which are stellar and have increased ridership. And, those are two cities with massive downtowns and very few (if any) competing suburban office parks to siphon transit riders.

2). Kotkin writes his essay based on commuters going ONLY to and from work. What about the huge numbers of tourist who visit major cities and use public (rail transit) to navigate these cities: Washington, NYC, Chicago, San Fran, and even Atlanta.

3). Kotkin also forgets to mention how mass RAIL transit reduces the number of cars on the roads when sports fans hop on transit to take in a game at the ballpark, the arena, or the stadium.

4). Most of the cities he mentioned (Dallas, Portland, Phoenix) do not have direct connections to their respective sporting venues and convention centers - hence the low ridership numbers.

5). However, he did mention that Houston has a sucessfuly 7.5 mile light rail line connecting downtown with the Medical center, but all of the sporting venues and convention centers are not within reach of Houston's current rail line, which will keep the ridership numbers low.

With that being said, back home in the ATL, Gwinnett & Cobb counties are seriously planning to "connect" to MARTA via light rail, and Clayton county is expected to vote in November to join MARTA.

So, what do you naysayers have to say about them green apples??? :frog:

[Pessimistic Observer]

mega busses that drive over cars
problem solved :haha:

[Pessimistic Observer]

More good news as many have pointed out including me xpress bus is running out of money. it was supposed to run out of federal money around 2012
http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/xpress-commuter-buses-going-591051.html

those busses are usually packed and yet the fares dont come even close to the funding needs it seems
so it looks like atlanta's once vaunted system of bus systems is really
going to be alot thinner this time next year. I wonder if we'll loose our
8th place ranking

[BlindFatSnake]

More good news as many have pointed out including me xpress bus is running out of money. it was supposed to run out of federal money around 2012
http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/xpress-commuter-buses-going-591051.html

those busses are usually packed and yet the fares dont come even close to the funding needs it seems
so it looks like atlanta's once vaunted system of bus systems is really
going to be alot thinner this time next year. I wonder if we'll loose our
8th place ranking

Ron Barnes gave GRTA its legs (er wheels), and he'll inject some moolah into the system to keep it afloat, along with light rail and more flexible funding for MARTA... :banana:

[cybele]

Well, it looks like Barnes and his people are getting in on the transit situation:

On transportation, the former governor said MARTA should be preserved — but not expanded. Instead, the state should shift to a network of elevated light-rail lines that would run above metro Atlanta’s interstate system.

Barnes remarks came during a symposium on real estate and the economy hosted by Data Bank, a real estate research firm.

The audience of real estate investors was a match for the former governor’s current emphasis on what he sees as the chief shortcoming of the first Republican administration — the failure to deal with the complicated but essential logistics that fuel growth.



On the topic of transportation, Barnes said North Carolina is eating our lunch:

”You can get on a train every day, and go from Charlotte to Raleigh, and come back. And we have just stuck our heads in the sand about this….

“One of the things we don’t do is continue on with the MARTA system, in my view. MARTA is part of this solution, and I believe MARTA ought to be taken in, in a regional transportation project.

“But the old MARTA system was…one which condemned its own right-of-way and built its own line and infrastructure. We don’t have the time to do that…..

“I think that what we have to do is to elevate light rail over the interstate highways where we already have the right-of-ways. And every so many bridges, you retrofit the bridges to be stations above.”

Barnes on water and transportation: Fill available rock quarries, elevate light rail over interstates (http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2009/08/13/barnes-on-water-and-transportation-fill-rock-quarries-with-water-elevate-light-rail-over-interstates/)

[DonTallPaul]

Disappointing honestly. Although that would give us transit, it sounds like it would do nearly nothing to change landuse patterns along those lines. Why not just build commuter rail (other than frequency) if you are just going to have people drive to rail stations?

[Chris Creech]

There's some interesting language there:

"On transportation, the former governor said MARTA should be preserved — but not expanded. Instead, the state should shift to a network of elevated light-rail lines that would run above metro Atlanta’s interstate system."

He's basically saying the state will not be supporting MARTA, but will actually be taking over any new Metro Atlanta transit. It may well take the State (politically speaking) to do a metro-wide system that crosses all these county lines. Then watch them fold in MARTA and all these county systems. Or maybe the county system (and MARTA) remain independent and the state provides the larger infrastructure. So maybe the plan is that the counties handle their own local systems (buses, beltline, some light rail) the state just connects it all together.

This isn't a bad start, just getting light rail intra-county transit along 75, 85, 20 and even a 285 perimeter loop, would help.

We need to catch up on so much though.The inner city stuff like the beltline and Peachtree trolleys, etc. commuter rail. It sounds like we may end up with a system much like San Francisco that's a conglomerate of various transit system all pegged together.

[Fiorenza]

Out here in Gwinnett the Xpress buses run empty.

[atlantaguy]

Out here in Gwinnett the Xpress buses run empty.

Not true at all. Some routes are standing room only.

Please explain why the park-and-ride lot at Brown Rd. & Sugarloaf Pkwy is full to capacity every single weekday.

[Fiorenza]

Yes the commuter buses going to downtown Atlanta government jobs are full, but all the others are empty.

The commuter buses are not charging sufficient fare to cover the downtown run. In other words, the government workers' commute is being subsidized.

[TarHeelJ]

Yes the commuter buses going to downtown Atlanta government jobs are full, but all the others are empty.

The commuter buses are not charging sufficient fare to cover the downtown run. In other words, the government workers' commute is being subsidized.

Isn't it a bit of an exaggertation to say that ALL the other buses are empty? I know for a fact that they aren't all empty...

[Fiorenza]

I'd like to know any intra-county route that has more than 1 or 2 riders. Most of them run completely empty most of the time.

[Pessimistic Observer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwinnett_County_Transit
Daily ridership About 8000 rides per day. In May '09 - Express: 3323; Local: 4417; ParaTransit: 52 on average per day.
nothing in comparison to fulton and dekalb numbers but then again fulton and dekalb actually have a public transit system

[Fiorenza]

GRTA, created by former Governor of Georgia Roy Barnes,

Yeah, another great idea.

[Fiorenza]

Why is this state still dumping serious money into such crap?

[sunking1056]

Why is this state still dumping serious money into such crap?

I really didn't miss you, Fiorenza

[Fiorenza]

No doubt about that. ;)

you do understand, we can't afford bad policy anymore?

[cybele]

Well, 8,000 a day sounds like a good bit. How much does it cost to run the durn thing per head and who pays?

[Fiorenza]

You don't want to know.

[cybele]

Well, is it Perdue and his bunch in charge? The party orto know better it seems like.

[Fiorenza]

I'm sure they know, but you don't want to know.

[Pessimistic Observer]

this could be fun
http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/fight-brewing-over-transportation-592507.html

[DonTallPaul]

this could be fun
http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/fight-brewing-over-transportation-592507.html

Someone started a thread in the transportation section about it:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=184155

[BlindFatSnake]

Yeah, another great idea.

Fiorenza, GRTA had it legs severed by Sonny Perdue and the Republicans when Governor "Egghead" fired the director of GRTA (Catherine Ross) as his first official duty as governor. When the director was gone, there was a void in leadership and direction.

The only thing allowed to continue was the oversized coach buses RUNNING EMPTY (outbound) from downtown Atlanta to the suburbs during the morning rush, and RUNNING EMPTY (inbound) to downtown Atlanta during the evening rush.

In other words, a skeleton without meat on the bones is nothing more than a foundation that is bound to starve...

Fiorenza, you can thank Goverenor "Egghead" for the low ridership on GRTA buses, and the lack of a regional transporation system that has been stalled for 8 years. :whip:

[RobMidtowner]

You are an idiot Fiorenza, sorry but some people want an alternative to sitting in traffic.

[BlindFatSnake]

this could be fun
http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/fight-brewing-over-transportation-592507.html

Hey folks, it's early in this political game of trying to figure out how to make the 1 cents 2012 vote work. The powers-that-be in North Fulton are just jockeying for position as they try to form a unified coalition against South Fulton, the city of Atlanta, and DeKalb county.

In the end, they will all come to a resolution due to the fact the referendum will be an ALL or NONE referendum on a list of transit and transportation options in the 10 country ARC district.

If you want that connector road in Cherokee county, then you will also be voting on the Beltline in the city of Atlanta.

Yes, this will be fun to watch...

[DonTallPaul]

Hey folks, it's early in this political game of trying to figure out how to make the 1 cents 2012 vote work. The powers-that-be in North Fulton are just jockeying for position as they try to form a unified coalition against South Fulton, the city of Atlanta, and DeKalb county.

Sounded to me like North Fulton was jockeying for position against the non MARTA counties over the 1 cent to MARTA, not necessarily against Atlanta or South Fulton. Could be just a play to help rip themselves of being a part of MARTA - but most of those seem to indicate a 'we've been on regional transportation for a while, so you'd better not leave our decades of contribution out of the process, if anything we should get more since we've built the backbone).

I can see out counties feel like a limited push for some Atlanta projects being all the core counties need because they 'already have major transportation infrastructure', when clearly Dekalb and Fulton are going to want new projects that benefit them for the 1 cent.

[BlindFatSnake]

Sounded to me like North Fulton was jockeying for position against the non MARTA counties over the 1 cent to MARTA, not necessarily against Atlanta or South Fulton. Could be just a play to help rip themselves of being a part of MARTA - but most of those seem to indicate a 'we've been on regional transportation for a while, so you'd better not leave our decades of contribution out of the process, if anything we should get more since we've built the backbone).

I can see out counties feel like a limited push for some Atlanta projects being all the core counties need because they 'already have major transportation infrastructure', when clearly Dekalb and Fulton are going to want new projects that benefit them for the 1 cent.

I stand corrected on the "against" south Fulton, ATL, and DeKalb... Their opposition does seem to be aimed at Cobb/Gwinnett - that could be a rouse, since a vote against taxation would be a nail in the coffin for regional transit.

However, north Fulton doesn't have much to show for 3 or 4 decades of taxation (other than a hand full of express bus routes from the North Springs MARTA station).

I'm still hopeful that the 5 core counties develop a regional transit system with MARTA as the backbone.

Harris County (Houston, TX) is slightly larger than the 5 core counties combine, and they have a county-wide transit system that pales in comparison to Atlanta's current hodge-podge network of transit systems.
We can do much better...

[Fiorenza]

However, north Fulton doesn't have much to show for 3 or 4 decades of taxation

You got that one right.

[Fiorenza]

You are an idiot Fiorenza

I know I am but what are you

[STrek777]

I know I am but what are you

So question the wisdom of one politician and poor Fiorenza is an idiot. Now I may not agree on everything Fiorenza says... but idiot... no.

[cybele]

Well, there is no need to get down on a man on account of his politics. Fiorenza has been around and has got quite a bit of information.

Well, the more I think about it I would say the man definitely knows what he is talking about, so why fuss at him.

[Fiorenza]

I try to hide my nuttiness as best I can, but sometimes I just can't keep it hidden.

[RobMidtowner]

When Fiorenza refers to GRTA as "the state dumping serious money into such crap?", I will respond in kind. Just because one person claims he sees a bunch of empty buses doesn't mean the whole program is "crap". It's a very offensive way of presenting his "politics".

[Fiorenza]

Anytime government stupidly wastes money to placate special interests, it's 'crap'.

[RobMidtowner]

I disagree that commuter buses are a stupid waste of money. On the contrary, I think it's "crap" when the only option I have to get where I'm going is to sit behind a bunch of cars lined up for miles in every direction.

[Fiorenza]

But you don't live in Gwinnett, see them running empty every day, and think about the money being wasted. The greatest urban transportation theory in the world is basically worthless if not put to practical use.

[RobMidtowner]

So you're saying that because one route you claim to see empty is wasting money, that the whole program is crap? That's a stretch especially when you said yourself the routes going downtown are full. Which "intra-county" routes are you referring to that are empty? Because the map I see on their website shows all the routes going downtown. Also, what data are you using to back up your claim that all the riders are government workers going for a subsidized ride? I hate wasted money just as much as you but I could make the same argument that all these extra highway lanes aren't being used outside of rush hour so why do we keep "dumping serious money into such crap?"

http://www.xpressga.com/images/stories/sysmap%20nov09%20web%20lg.jpg

[DonTallPaul]

Sounds like what we need is some numbers. I know a lot of people personally who use the buses daily for jobs in town (they don't work for the government either BTW).

I wouldn't be surprised if the suburb to suburbs are meeting limited success, but I think there is a lot of personal opinion and broad brush painting here.

But stats would certainly clear a lot of that up. Probably going to be some "I don't want to hear the truth" on both sides, but I dunno about everyone else I'd rather see reality. I suspect some buses are complete failures and huge wastes of money, others being very busy and a clear success based on what I saw when living in Gwinnett and knowing lots of people who still do.

Personally I think there is an opportunity here to job overboard and simply jump on what is "cool". Light rail is the rage right now, and has the ability to transform landuse. But the fact is, if we just simply throw light rail all over the burbs at high cost, we are fooling ourselves. The greatest big cities in the world don't do this - they relay on commute rail and other share infrastructure to reduce the overall cost in areas where the density simply does not justify the investment. In areas, preferably off freeway where the density demands in - both in the core and in the more dense burbs, light rail might make some sense. I do think we need better transit options (as well as some road improvements because cars aren't going away) - but if we don't change some of how we live and work as a city, we're going to get left behind.

I agree we can't afford bad policy, its definitely something I agree with Fiorenza on. But I also think we can't pave our way to the future, and we must present alternatives. But anytime its all or nothing or fitting the problem to the solution, instead of the solution to the problem - we are going to be disappointed.

[atl2phx]

Well, there is no need to get down on a man on account of his politics. Fiorenza has been around and has got quite a bit of information.

Well, the more I think about it I would say the man definitely knows what he is talking about, so why fuss at him.

oh my god. what a joke.

[BlindFatSnake]

oh my god. what a joke.

Ditto...

GRTA Xpress buses were intended to be a temporary fix. Once light rail is up and running in the suburbs, there will NOT be a need for "coach" buses shuttling suburbanites into the city...

Note: while waiting to catch a shuttle to Atlantic Station from MARTA's Arts Center station, I saw a Gwinnett County Transit "coach" bus leaving the station at 5:30 PM with only the driver. The bus headed north on West Peachtree St en route to I-85 and Gwinnett County.

[RobMidtowner]

Sounds like what we need is some numbers. I know a lot of people personally who use the buses daily for jobs in town (they don't work for the government either BTW).

I wouldn't be surprised if the suburb to suburbs are meeting limited success, but I think there is a lot of personal opinion and broad brush painting here.

But stats would certainly clear a lot of that up. Probably going to be some "I don't want to hear the truth" on both sides, but I dunno about everyone else I'd rather see reality. I suspect some buses are complete failures and huge wastes of money, others being very busy and a clear success based on what I saw when living in Gwinnett and knowing lots of people who still do.

Personally I think there is an opportunity here to job overboard and simply jump on what is "cool". Light rail is the rage right now, and has the ability to transform landuse. But the fact is, if we just simply throw light rail all over the burbs at high cost, we are fooling ourselves. The greatest big cities in the world don't do this - they relay on commute rail and other share infrastructure to reduce the overall cost in areas where the density simply does not justify the investment. In areas, preferably off freeway where the density demands in - both in the core and in the more dense burbs, light rail might make some sense. I do think we need better transit options (as well as some road improvements because cars aren't going away) - but if we don't change some of how we live and work as a city, we're going to get left behind.

I agree we can't afford bad policy, its definitely something I agree with Fiorenza on. But I also think we can't pave our way to the future, and we must present alternatives. But anytime its all or nothing or fitting the problem to the solution, instead of the solution to the problem - we are going to be disappointed.

Sorry DonTallPaul but you're mischaracterizing the debate Fiorenza and I are having. I have not taken an all or nothing approach in supporting Xpress buses. I have also never said "I don't wanna hear the truth" and have tried not to give that impression. If a bus is a complete failure and rides around empty, then I agree it should be cut. But no evidence has been presented to support this claim. It's more than that though, I originally decided to respond to Fiorenza because of his notion that one apparently underused route means the system as a whole is crap. This is the type of thinking we can't afford because it leads to bad policy. Keep in mind that his opinion came as a reaction to the AJC article saying the program was running out of money due to loss of federal funding, which I took offense to and decided to respond.

[Fiorenza]

I bet the reason the federal funding is being discontinued is because they realize the buses are massively underutilized.

[RobMidtowner]

Um, actually no, they are called federal start-up funds. They were never meant to carry the program entirely. Again, I'll ask you to provide evidence that the "buses are massively underutilized"??

[DonTallPaul]

Sorry DonTallPaul but you're mischaracterizing the debate Fiorenza and I are having. I have not taken an all or nothing approach in supporting Xpress buses. I have also never said "I don't wanna hear the truth" and have tried not to give that impression. If a bus is a complete failure and rides around empty, then I agree it should be cut. But no evidence has been presented to support this claim. It's more than that though, I originally decided to respond to Fiorenza because of his notion that one apparently underused route means the system as a whole is crap. This is the type of thinking we can't afford because it leads to bad policy. Keep in mind that his opinion came as a reaction to the AJC article saying the program was running out of money due to loss of federal funding, which I took offense to and decided to respond.

I think you just took what I said a little too personally and directly :)

I'm not saying anyone's opinion is right, I simply said we need to not do what is the rage and we need some facts to back up what is a lot of brash statements. They were primarily from Fiorenza (which I clearly indicate I know people, non government workers ride those busese regularly to counter they are all govt subsidy riders). I just, with any argument, didn't have facts so I was not interested in generalizing or calling out anyone.

My point was in general terms, things that are successful (like full routes), like you, consider it good policy and routes running empty is bad policy. Running empty busese or choosing an all or nothing approach (only transit or only roads) is another example of bad policy, because it does not provide the balance necessary. I wasn't calling anyone's ideas specifically (unless you want 100% transit funding or 100% road funding) bad policy, just that in the one place I could agree with Fiorenza is that we can't afford bad policy - we need to be smart, we need to be targeted, and we need to realize that somethings like suburban transit is about changing lifestyles and its going to be a progression.

Sorry if you took it directly for me judging you, I think I'm more in agreement with you than perhaps you took (or maybe my wording was poor). I'm actually pro EXpress buses (and commuter rail) as well as suppose a number of transit initiatives here in town (the Cobb light rail line (assuming there is a MARTA Connection), light rail across 285, and a Gwinnett light rail line - assuming they are off the freeway enough to promote a change in land use - plus streetcar, and more light rail in the city ). My point is it needs to be done right, and not simply slapped out there to say we have transit and we can't build all transit and expect magically everyones lifestyles and all landuse patterns to immediately change justifying the investment, but we have to start somewhere.

[cybele]

But stats would certainly clear a lot of that up. Probably going to be some "I don't want to hear the truth" on both sides, but I dunno about everyone else I'd rather see reality. I suspect some buses are complete failures and huge wastes of money, others being very busy and a clear success based on what I saw when living in Gwinnett and knowing lots of people who still do.

Well, that is a good point. What do the numbers say.

[Fiorenza]

If there are 300 buses and 8,000 riders per day, it means that there are 26.6 riders per bus in a 24 hour period. Assuming the buses are running 14 hours per day on average, that's less than 2 riders per hour.

[Fiorenza]

A lot of people in places like North Fulton and Gwinnett are asking, how can we receive any benefit from an additional 1% transportation tax that will merely further suppress an economy already overburdened with taxation.

[Pessimistic Observer]

A lot of people in places like North Fulton and Gwinnett are asking, how can we receive any benefit from an additional 1% transportation tax that will merely further suppress an economy already overburdened with taxation.

if the economy is still bad by this time 2012 i dont think this bill will be an issue cause noone will be left in town to vote on it

[DonTallPaul]

If there are 300 buses and 8,000 riders per day, it means that there are 26.6 riders per bus in a 24 hour period. Assuming the buses are running 14 hours per day on average, that's less than 2 riders per hour.

Got a source? Not necessarily doubting you, but I like a lot of people don't trust someone else's figured - plus, there is a lot of "context" effected information people like to put out there is a flat truth, so I prefer to read for myself.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Got a source? Not necessarily doubting you, but I like a lot of people don't trust someone else's figured - plus, there is a lot of "context" effected information people like to put out there is a flat truth, so I prefer to read for myself.

en.wikipedia states this about gwinnet transit authority
Daily ridership About 8000 rides per day. In May '09 - Express: 3323; Local: 4417; ParaTransit: 52 on average per day

now i dont know where the 300 busses per day comes from though
if its 300 bus trips per day then 8000 riders divided among 300 bus trips
which is a decent number per trip

[DonTallPaul]

en.wikipedia states this about gwinnet transit authority
Daily ridership About 8000 rides per day. In May '09 - Express: 3323; Local: 4417; ParaTransit: 52 on average per day

now i dont know where the 300 busses per day comes from though
if its 300 bus trips per day then 8000 riders divided among 300 bus trips
which is a decent number per trip

Yeah, hopefully we'll see the source. I'd be impressed if Gwinnett had 300 buses running 14 hours a day. IT would also be confusing (maybe I should re-read his post), but I thought he was knocking express buses - but that daily ridership includes express/regional it seems.

Might just be feeding the troll too based on some of the other comments...

[cybele]

now i dont know where the 300 busses per day comes from though

Well, if they don't even know where the dang buses come from it doesn't sound like much of a transit thing. What do they do, just see who shows up? "Well, here comes that red bus again, send him on over to Buford." It won't look good if Perdue and his people are running a situation like that.

[Fiorenza]

Actually, per the Wikipedia article Gwinnett as 92 buses in their fleet. If the average bus is operating 14 hours per day (say, 7 am to 9 pm), then 8000 riders divided by 92 buses divided by 14 hours, means there are on average 6 riders per hour. Since an average ride only lasts probably 30 minutes, there would be an average of 3 riders per bus at any time. I think some express commuter buses run pretty full during rush hour, so that would account for the fact that the buses I see on Buford Hwy and other surface streets are running stone empty.

Troll that.

[DonTallPaul]

Actually, per the Wikipedia article Gwinnett as 92 buses in their fleet. If the average bus is operating 14 hours per day (say, 7 am to 9 pm), then 8000 riders divided by 92 buses divided by 14 hours, means there are on average 6 riders per hour. Since an average ride only lasts probably 30 minutes, there would be an average of 3 riders per bus at any time. I think some express commuter buses run pretty full during rush hour, so that would account for the fact that the buses I see on Buford Hwy and other surface streets are running stone empty.

Troll that.

You can look at the schedules online - not all 92 buses run all day for load. Plus, even that wikipedia article mentions a lot of the route times they run, so the ones running definitely don't all run 14 hours a day - incase you don't want to actually lookup real numbers.

So yes, the troll comment was probably a little mean, but you are really just kind of ten keying math to try to make your argument look better. The sad thing, its probably true some of the buses are under utilized or there could be better use - but you really weaken your own argument with this because you've already stepped back on your numbers once.

[Fiorenza]

I'm just a flawed messenger, but the message remains. We are wasting a lot of money just running empty buses all day long. Don't tell me they're not empty, because I see them with my own eyes all the time.

I'm not the only one who observes this. In Gwinnett at least, it's a very bad argument for increased transit spending.

[DonTallPaul]

I'm just a flawed messenger, but the message remains. We are wasting a lot of money just running empty buses all day long. Don't tell me they're not empty, because I see them with my own eyes all the time.

I'm not the only one who observes this. In Gwinnett at least, it's a very bad argument for increased transit spending.

Well, I guess at least you try to admit your messages was flawed.

[DonTallPaul]

If it helps I counted all of the "bus trips". This isn't units, this isn't routes, but actual number of trips each bus takes (coming and going) for all express units. I got 107 across 7 routes. With 3323 daily riders, that's an average of 31.5 people per bus. According to GRTA website GRTA buses are 57 seat (but only 3 of the 7 routes are "GRTA routes" so the percentage may be higher or lower I don't recall seeing the number of seats for the GCT run routes) - I get 55% load on average.

Someone else can count the local buses if anyone actually cares, they run more often LOL - but are also only 4 routes.

So I'd definitely say although you may see some empty buses, the facts simply don't back up you painting that even a large number are empty with a broad brush.

[mike1986]

I'm just a flawed messenger, but the message remains. We are wasting a lot of money just running empty buses all day long. Don't tell me they're not empty, because I see them with my own eyes all the time.

I'm not the only one who observes this. In Gwinnett at least, it's a very bad argument for increased transit spending.

Strange... the only time I see these buses empty is when they say "Not In Service". Hmm...

[Fiorenza]

Don,

Don't you see the flaw in your methodology? A bus may haul 31.5 people per day, but that's for the entire day!! If the average ride time is 30 minutes, then you're back to only slightly over one rider on average at any moment on average. That cannot continue.

Now who's the flawed message?

[Fiorenza]

You guys can hate on me much as you like, but I'm still right. This stupid Xpress bus service is being phased out because it simply doesn't have the ridership.

[Fiorenza]

Being blindly biased towards public transit, you guys will never admit I'm right...even after the pork barrel crap has been discontinued.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Don,

Don't you see the flaw in your methodology? A bus may haul 31.5 people per day, but that's for the entire day!! If the average ride time is 30 minutes, then you're back to only slightly over one rider on average at any moment on average. That cannot continue.

Now who's the flawed message?
are you insane what kind of math is that
its not 31.5 people per day its 31.5 people per trip

[Fiorenza]

Your numbers are flawed. Do you really believe that a bus fleet of almost 100 buses is making only a little over 100 "trips" per day? Look, there are only 8,000 passengers using the service per day, and I suspect even that modest estimate may be a stretch. In any event, it means each bus on average is boarding less than 90 passengers per day, during the entire 14 hours or so the bus is in operation.

Are YOU insane? Give me a break!!!

[DonTallPaul]

Don,

Don't you see the flaw in your methodology? A bus may haul 31.5 people per day, but that's for the entire day!! If the average ride time is 30 minutes, then you're back to only slightly over one rider on average at any moment on average. That cannot continue.

Now who's the flawed message?

Man, I'm sorry I gave you any credit (which was legit, though you may have assumed otherwise).

You frankly are flat out making things up to try to rile us up. You are trolling at this point.

I'll go ahead and waste a few minutes answering your outrageous claims:

My numbers are based on bus trips (that's actual schedules route) passes of express buses only. Unlike you, my numbers though potentially imperfect are based on real facts and quantified, not pulled out of the air. The number of total buses in the system and hours per day are insignificant - this is about which buses are actually running against their ridership, you are quoting hours some buses may not be running and bus units which may not be running. The schedules on number of trips for express (and local) are available online (like they are for every bus system) you can count for yourself the number of trips they make vs. the ridership figures.

I think everyone else here sees you are interested in your view only (maybe I'm just late to the party). I was all for a real discussion on the realities vs. dreams of public transit in this city.

[Fiorenza]

Our attempt at trying or not trying to understand each other's viewpoint is a microcosm of what's going on in this country between conservatives and liberals. There's absolutely no common ground and we're heading for an economic collapse and civil war.

All I can say is, it's absolutely ridiculous to suppose that public transport is working in Gwinnett county. Even with a heavy subsidy the buses are running empty, and it doesn't matter what you purport to say - I know what I see with my eyes. At least in Atlanta, MARTA has ridership albeit at a heavy cost per passenger mile to the taxpayers.

[Fiorenza]

I see empty buses and its not good, no matter what you or stats say.

NOW you admit there are empty buses. That's what I've been trying to tell you!

[Fiorenza]

But its not, I've clearly stated that there isn't a large scale or majority of empty buses based on stats.

Clearly state it as much as you like, but it's not true.

[Fiorenza]

One more lobbyist-driven, bad idea we can't afford.

http://www.ajc.com/news/interstate-from-savannah-to-597123.html

[Fiorenza]

Some can't stand the idea that others have different viewpoints.

[cybele]

Well, there is no reason to go after a man based on his politics and whatnot. I don't know the numbers but everybody has seen a lots of empty buses running around all over and you have to wonder who pays for it all. Especially the big dogs sitting up there drawing these fat checks on the back of the working man.

[Ansley]

Well, there is no reason to go after a man based on his politics and whatnot. I don't know the numbers but everybody has seen a lots of empty buses running around all over and you have to wonder who pays for it all. Especially the big dogs sitting up there drawing these fat checks on the back of the working man.

Cybele - Most of the big dogs are folks who are innovative, have risked much, have worked tireless hours and have created jobs we otherwise would not have.

[cybele]

Cybele - Most of the big dogs are folks who are innovative, have risked much, have worked tireless hours and have created jobs we otherwise would not have.

Well, I'm talking about the ones that has the government jobs like that school board woman who gets half a million and has a driver running her around for 100-and-something thousand a year. The head of the MARTA makes something like that, too.

[cybele]

Well here is a man who says the Streetcar is not that good a idea.


Transportation proposals need to take us somewhere (http://blogs.ajc.com/kyle-wingfield/2010/08/26/transportation-proposals-need-to-take-us-somewhere/?cxntfid=blogs_kyle_wingfield)

Tourists would be the biggest beneficiaries of the streetcar, which would run from the aquarium, alongside Centennial Olympic Park, through Fairlie-Poplar, and finally down Auburn Avenue to historic sites from the civil rights era.

Nothing against tourists, but Atlanta’s biggest congestion headaches come from commuting, not tourism, and generally are on highways, not downtown surface streets.

And never mind that MARTA already runs a subway line that comes within a couple of blocks of most of the major destinations, is canceling a little-used bus route that’s very similar to the proposed streetcar’s path, and discontinued a previous tourist trolley in the same area due to poor ridership.

The broader plan also calls for a trolley line along Peachtree Street, north to Brookhaven and south toward Fort McPherson. It’s central to an attempt to create Atlanta’s version of the Champs-Élysées in Paris or Michigan Avenue in Chicago.

Both streets are wonderful, famous — and lack streetcars. Which is inconvenient for the argument that Peachtree needs a streetcar to emulate them.

The Peachtree Streetcar is a prestige project that developers, of course, love. To the degree that it addresses commuting, our biggest transportation need, it casts an eye toward the problems of future residents who might opt to live in a more dense urban setting. Or might not; we don’t know yet.

What we do know is that the “last mile” for real congestion relief lies not on Peachtree, but probably somewhere in Cobb, Gwinnett or north Fulton.

[Uptowngirl]

I'd like to see the streetcar projec to go forward myself.

I also have little sympathy for those who sit in traffic on the interstates (and Georgia does not need to widen or build more of them either).

[BlindFatSnake]

I'd like to see the streetcar projec to go forward myself.

I also have little sympathy for those who sit in traffic on the interstates (and Georgia does not need to widen or build more of them either).

The author of the article posted by Cybele does NOT understand the local economies in the metro area. Cobb, Gwinnett, and north Fulton suffer from LACK of transit alternatives, and a f'ing streetcar WOULD NOT work in any of those areas.

Cybele, you should learn to compare apples to apples beccause comparing apples to oranges leaves a foul taste in most people's mouths. Just because some "man" writes a "piece" on his dislikes about local transit solutions, does not equate to "righteousness".

And, for the last time, will you STOP posting bullshit articles that says BUSES couldn't attract a hefty ridership, so FIXED RAIL TRANSIT would also be a FAILURE. That's total bullshit, and if you don't have the proof to substaniate your BELIEF, than DON'T post idiotic articles by idiotic writers.

Thank you, Cybele.

Now in other news... Atlanta will know by year's end whether the city is granted funding for the east-west streetcar line. I'LL BET DOLLARS TO DOUGHNUTS - this is a done deal. The ARC finally got their MIX of funding right.

[cybele]

Cybele, you should learn to compare apples to apples beccause comparing apples to oranges leaves a foul taste in most people's mouths. Just because some "man" writes a "piece" on his dislikes about local transit solutions, does not equate to "righteousness".

And, for the last time, will you STOP posting bullshit articles that says BUSES couldn't attract a hefty ridership, so FIXED RAIL TRANSIT would also be a FAILURE. That's total bullshit, and if you don't have the proof to substaniate your BELIEF, than DON'T post idiotic articles by idiotic writers.

Thank you, Cybele.

Well, there is no cause to get on the messenger on account of repeating some man who has the newspaper behind him. Lots of us know more than these big dogs anyway and all I am saying is that's what he said. I would ride the streetcar myself if it was going where I am going, just like I would the bus (unlike some in the ATL who thinks they are too good for it).

[cybele]

Well, what is the best way to hook up an iphone to the MARTA so you can tell when the next bus is coming. They should also have a thing where you can punch in if it is running late so you can tell people down the line to hold their horses, it will be a while.