[dante2308]

Furthermore is seems like people have zero faith in the civil and mechanical engineering abilities of our nation and zero will to innovate or attempt anything new. Light rail is not a practical solution to traffic capacity issues in a developed sprawling auto-based city.

As it is, a comparative city like Dallas has 42 miles of light rail, no heavy rail and manages 58,000 riders in a metropolitan area of nearly 7 million. While I'm actually for light rail, it isn't a commuter solution, it is a tool for urbanization and one that only leverages gains during a period of massive gentrification and population growth in the core. MARTA heavy rail has dozens of stations waiting for TOD so there isn't a comparative benefit as the vast majority of commuters or more of the people depend on highway-based longer range commutes to areas dozens of miles away.

[cwkimbro]

I'm sorry, but for Atlanta this would just be a pipe-dream/gimmick. Also, the lack of understanding between transit planning and urban planning as a whole is just downright problematic.... especially when spend money on this magnitude (for any of the options we are talking about)

You talk about the bus-only lanes, but ignored the part of the comment where I said HOT lanes, which we are already starting to to build. Also, widening the highway to include a single bus only lanes, despite the lack of potential capacity for SOV under HOT use, would easily be cheaper then building the overhead bus on the freeway. Minneapolis has an interesting program where they expanded the shoulder by a few feet to make a hybrid emergency shoulder-bus only lane. Personally, I like the HOT lanes idea better myself.

If ground buses can operate at speeds averaging 45-50mph, then we are already better off investing our money to enhance that and add buses and multiple point to point routes.

There are still too many safety issues not being addressed as well.

There is also something funny about the height of the vehicle itself... 4.4 to 4.5m high and it provides a 2.2m clearance for cars underneath. A 7.2ft clearance would never fly with federal DOT requirements and there would be too many problems with people thinking they can fit under it...when they can't. Also.. this only leaves 7.2ft to build the floor and roof of the passenger compartment and have room for the people to stand and walk through. Once you did that it wouldn't offer much standing room for our population. I'm 6'1' and there are tons of people taller than me. If built here it would have to be taller.

It is still too slow.

Also, -most- rail expansions proposed in Atlanta follow rail corridors, which decrease the expenses of building overpasses and bridges greatly.

Land values matter!

Look at the belt line. Developers would not build Transit-Oriented-Development if people did not desire to be there. This is important for many reasons. Desire raises land values, which increases the tax-digest for the cities/counties. This in turns helps fund upkeep of the areas near the transit corridors. This is especially important when the best funding mechanisms we have these days for transit expansion are directly related to increasing land values (use of TADs and CIDs)

You do things to raise the quality of life... and it raises land values... which brings in more developers... which enhances tax-digests... and allows the area to maintain better quality of life, transit, schools, parks, etc...

Everything is interlinked in urban planning.

If you focus just on building something and ignore everything else, then we go back to the same problems we had before with sprawl, people moving out of the central city, crippling infrastructure in the central city, while there is new infrastructure build on the exurban fringe.


Now, if you are worried about direct cost-of-living values, like how much is rent and the cost of buying a home... Those costs are still kept under control, but usually through a increase in density. A building that holds 50 units instead of 10 on the same plot of land will make the tax-digest for that piece of land much more valuable. Other ideas, like the beltline is using, is setting aside 15% of funds to use to subsidizing in mixed-income developments.

That aside... there is usually a positive correlation between land-values and quality of life.

Also, if you wanted to play the... I only care about suburbanites card for regional only commuting. Commuter rail would be more efficient and effective. It would be cheaper and easier to implement on existing rail corridors and offer direct access to a wider amount of suburban/exurban communities in Atlanta. Not to mention it would do more to alleviate traffic off of arterial streets near freeways, since most rail corridors aren't directly along side our freeways. Gwinnett Co. is a great example. The rail corridors or several miles away from the freeway.

Don't get me wrong... I am happy to see people thinking outside the box, but there are just too many issues with this concept for the Atlanta region.

[dante2308]

HOT lanes are also not traffic solutions. I'm firmly against them. Also widening a shoulder is not a solution. When a car is on said shoulder (every half mile it seems) it becomes ineffective. I see no reason for people to have a way to buy their way out of traffic when each lane cost the exact same amount. It does not change the fact of capacity, it is only a disincentive to try to use the lane. That's a personal choice of course and has nothing to do with the overhead bus. It frankly doesn't matter right here if the lanes were HOV or HOT. Neither have to do with mass transit.

The height of the vehicle isn't determined and you can easily make the lanes sedan only. Indicate "sedan only" with flashing lights. Advertise fines, ticket people who disobey, and after all that, have the bus labeled and come to a stop should someone violate the sedan only rule.

The speed of the Chinese model is limited because it is solar powered and aims for zero emissions. It specifically states that a bus system averages 12 miles per hour. Furthermore there is no reason this cannot average a higher speed than a bus and provide a tangible benefit during a high traffic time.

As for land values, again, TODs don't even pay for transit. We use sales tax, so it is based on consumption, not property taxes. So if your land value were to skyrocket, that would only charge you a higher property tax amount, destroy your disposable income, and reduce your consumption, thereby reducing the amount you pay in the form of sales tax. Some people would be priced out of the area completely. Furthermore is would reduce the profit margin of stores in the area and reduce their income tax AND sales tax allocation. In addition to the higher operating costs and lower profit margin of anyone who dares to locate their business on high valued land. The property taxes would go to the state and city I suppose, but it doesn't help the economy to arbitrarily tax a person more and have them consume less.

TADs are a funny little thing. I'm sure lots of you would like more parks and such and great, get a bunch of developers together and make a nice area, but as I said, MARTA already has several transit-oriented areas that are undeveloped. Develop those, hell even build light rail in loops around the CBD. Nothing is stopping a person from building nice apartment units on lower valued land. In fact that's what Atlanta is, all of it is low value compared to other city analogues. Just zone what you want. I DO NOT support subsidized housing.

More importantly who cares? I'm talking about commuter and traffic issues. No one is stopping you from building a million light rail lines or a million parks surrounded by a million trendy apartments no one's job allows them to afford. Neither will solve the traffic issue on the highways. Atlanta's population will just go up as opposed to down and more people will be on the highways.

The commuter rail is fine, but the argument that it doesn't follow the highway means that it doesn't follow the major employment corridors as any company with a brain would locate in an area that has good access to the highway. Feeding the highway route with the street bus system is no issue at all so everyone can have access if that's what you're worried about. I've seen all the lines for commuter rail and estimates that each will divert as many as 8,000 people off the highway per day.

Not a solution.

Then there is the bigger area that NO ONE seems to be addressing. The area of addressing industrial, employment, and economical concerns. Questions like "how do we make Atlanta a better manufacturing hub?" or "how do we reduce operating costs for companies to attract employers?" are just ignored. In fact everything you suggested seems to do the exact opposite. The intra-metro and interstate transportation infrastructure needs to be obstruction free. It does not need to jammed from now to eternity while a marginal number of people jam some other form of transportation. It needs to be clear, it needs to have the reputation of being clear, and it needs to be addressed now.

It seems the only remaining issue you brought up was the height and getting DOT approval. Sedan only aside, those issues are far less than the issues surrounding rail and I have nothing against rail, but it IS NOT A SOLUTION. Especially if you want to create rail as an excuse to tipple the population density.

[RobMidtowner]

Furthermore is seems like people have zero faith in the civil and mechanical engineering abilities of our nation and zero will to innovate or attempt anything new. Light rail is not a practical solution to traffic capacity issues in a developed sprawling auto-based city.

As it is, a comparative city like Dallas has 42 miles of light rail, no heavy rail and manages 58,000 riders in a metropolitan area of nearly 7 million. While I'm actually for light rail, it isn't a commuter solution, it is a tool for urbanization and one that only leverages gains during a period of massive gentrification and population growth in the core. MARTA heavy rail has dozens of stations waiting for TOD so there isn't a comparative benefit as the vast majority of commuters or more of the people depend on highway-based longer range commutes to areas dozens of miles away.

It's not the engineering I don't have faith in, it's the drivers. If we have this many accidents/fatalities each day with the highway as is, can you see how a "leg with wheels" barreling down the interstate in between two lanes of traffic will cause problems? Collosal waste of money.

[dante2308]

Treating the American people as stupid children will lead to our downfall. Do it too long and we will become stupid children.

[cwkimbro]

HOT lanes are also not traffic solutions. I'm firmly against them. Also widening a shoulder is not a solution. When a car is on said shoulder (every half mile it seems) it becomes ineffective. I see no reason for people to have a way to buy their way out of traffic when each lane cost the exact same amount. It does not change the fact of capacity, it is only a disincentive to try to use the lane. That's a personal choice of course and has nothing to do with the overhead bus. It frankly doesn't matter right here if the lanes were HOV or HOT. Neither have to do with mass transit.

The height of the vehicle isn't determined and you can easily make the lanes sedan only. Indicate "sedan only" with flashing lights. Advertise fines, ticket people who disobey, and after all that, have the bus labeled and come to a stop should someone violate the sedan only rule.

The speed of the Chinese model is limited because it is solar powered and aims for zero emissions. It specifically states that a bus system averages 12 miles per hour. Furthermore there is no reason this cannot average a higher speed than a bus and provide a tangible benefit during a high traffic time.

As for land values, again, TODs don't even pay for transit. We use sales tax, so it is based on consumption, not property taxes. So if your land value were to skyrocket, that would only charge you a higher property tax amount, destroy your disposable income, and reduce your consumption, thereby reducing the amount you pay in the form of sales tax. Some people would be priced out of the area completely. Furthermore is would reduce the profit margin of stores in the area and reduce their income tax AND sales tax allocation. In addition to the higher operating costs and lower profit margin of anyone who dares to locate their business on high valued land. The property taxes would go to the state and city I suppose, but it doesn't help the economy to arbitrarily tax a person more and have them consume less.

TADs are a funny little thing. I'm sure lots of you would like more parks and such and great, get a bunch of developers together and make a nice area, but as I said, MARTA already has several transit-oriented areas that are undeveloped. Develop those, hell even build light rail in loops around the CBD. Nothing is stopping a person from building nice apartment units on lower valued land. In fact that's what Atlanta is, all of it is low value compared to other city analogues. Just zone what you want. I DO NOT support subsidized housing.

More importantly who cares? I'm talking about commuter and traffic issues. No one is stopping you from building a million light rail lines or a million parks surrounded by a million trendy apartments no one's job allows them to afford. Neither will solve the traffic issue on the highways. Atlanta's population will just go up as opposed to down and more people will be on the highways.

The commuter rail is fine, but the argument that it doesn't follow the highway means that it doesn't follow the major employment corridors as any company with a brain would locate in an area that has good access to the highway. Feeding the highway route with the street bus system is no issue at all so everyone can have access if that's what you're worried about. I've seen all the lines for commuter rail and estimates that each will divert as many as 8,000 people off the highway per day.

Not a solution.

Then there is the bigger area that NO ONE seems to be addressing. The area of addressing industrial, employment, and economical concerns. Questions like "how do we make Atlanta a better manufacturing hub?" or "how do we reduce operating costs for companies to attract employers?" are just ignored. In fact everything you suggested seems to do the exact opposite. The intra-metro and interstate transportation infrastructure needs to be obstruction free. It does not need to jammed from now to eternity while a marginal number of people jam some other form of transportation. It needs to be clear, it needs to have the reputation of being clear, and it needs to be addressed now.

It seems the only remaining issue you brought up was the height and getting DOT approval. Sedan only aside, those issues are far less than the issues surrounding rail and I have nothing against rail, but it IS NOT A SOLUTION. Especially if you want to create rail as an excuse to tipple the population density.


See... I'm sorry, but your already starting to make holes in your original argument. First there is plenty of clearance with bridges and a 4.4m tall vehicle... and now there is a concession that we don't even know how tall the vehicle would need to be here. It would easily need to be taller than 4.4m/14.7ft for a city like Atlanta.

And Again... I can not state enough how much you are not tying together urban planning and transit planning.... not to mention economic realities.

You can't just develop cheap land to make it whatever you want. You must do something to foster demand for the area. The beltline adds parks, trails, and promises transit to do this. This makes people -want- to live there. Then, and only then, does it become feasible to build housing for more people that are willing to pay for it.

You are still ignoring the fact that a TAD works by collecting money from creating a change to -increase- property values. If you want to get into effects on sales tax... When Atlanta was a city of 400,000 people and 400,000 jobs it clearly would collect less in sales than a city with 500,000 people, 500,000 jobs and growing. You can expand this to be Fulton and Dekalb Counties or the whole 10-county ARC metro area, but transit by nature of what it does helps increase density, which leads to an increase of tax collections.

I live in the suburbs and even the town I live in has planned how to use a commuter rail station to increase density by creating a "town center" atmosphere with higher priced town houses and homes on smaller plots that want to take advantage of walking to the station. This change allows more people to be able to live in that area and increase property values, sales tax collections, and potential TAD tax collections to enhance the quality of life in the area.

Don't be so dismissive of TOD when they are apart of TADs like the beltline district. The beltline was designed to be fully funded by the TAD and federal subsidies within 25 years (not taking the recession into account... so it will end up needing to be readjusted a few years).

And I'm sorry you don't seem to understand HOT lanes. I thought as a man that likes to look at statistics of how many cars can pass a single point on a freeway at a given time would have an easier time understanding how they work.

Your highway stats. only hold up as long as traffic is moving. Once it hits that point of critical mass the number of cars passing a single point drastically falls, unless you create a scheme that allows some lanes to keep moving. Whether or not you like the methods, this is what a HOT lane does. It keeps one or two lanes moving, even if the others don't. So yea... HOT lanes do increase capacity of a freeway when it hits the critical mass point that causes congestion. Most importantly it gives a lane where buses can keep moving, which negates the whole reason for having an expensive raised bus on the freeway.

I think you need to spend some time studying how different ideas that are currently viable, proven options actually work and what there real pros and cons are before being so dismissive of them. Especially before supporting what is otherwise a really expensive, unproven alternative option.


With that said... I'm done arguing this point. You already have negated some of your original arguments and you have failed to adequately address (or even understand) a number of mine. I will leave it to third parties to read what you wrote and read what I wrote to form their own opinions.



Anyways... moving forward does anyone have anything more constructive to talk about maybe relating to Concept 3 ? (http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitDallas_0810/B.SCOTT%20-%20TPB%20Concept%203%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf)

[dante2308]

Well that was disrespectful. I'd point out the many holes in almost everything you said, but you aren't willing to listen. I think you probably should have done some actual research before dismissing the straddling bus. If you wont hear it and you are going to make this personal, then I would rather have a more productive discourse with someone else.

But I'll repeat, there is a glaring hole in almost every sentence in your post if you aren't afraid to hear them.

[Pessimistic Observer]

lets just agree to disagree and we can reevaluate the straddling bus and light rail this time next year.

[dante2308]

Clearly. I have no intention to have another person agree or any predisposition to force myself to disagree, but rather my goal is to exchange information, ideas, and opinions.

It has become clear that rail system expansion plans are deliberately killed by the powers that be to the point that they are mere fantasy. The closer a system is to fruition, the more energy the opposition puts into killing it and every single time, they seem to win.

This has gone on for so long that proposals from several decades ago are still being fought for as if they were new ideas. As the environment is such that the same proposals don't have a better chance of passing with time, perhaps, at the very least, a new and better proposal should be considered in the future.

[delarosa]

Anyways... moving forward does anyone have anything more constructive to talk about maybe relating to Concept 3 ? (http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitDallas_0810/B.SCOTT%20-%20TPB%20Concept%203%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf)

I'm still curious about the Marietta St. segment of the streetcar and am wondering if any local planners and/or insiders to the process have any insights to share.

I know it's embodied in Concept 3, at least in some form. From an intown development and local transit perspective, it seems like this (extending the soon to be loop up Marietta St->west side->Atlantic Station) would be a savvy choice for the next round of expansion. However, I am admittedly not a transportation engineer, so I am curious to hear any informed technical views on why, say, the Peachtree segment is the better choice. Not to say that it ought not be a strong driver, but it seems like the push for that segment is driven by a coalition of local businesses, BIDs and Peachtree-mania.

I'm also curious about the decision for where the hypothetical expansion will be made and the process. If the city owns the assets and MARTA will be responsible for operations, it's seems clear the ultimate decision will be made there, presumably under the aegis of it's planning arms and TPB, with recommendations and support coming from orgs like ARC and the local BIDs. Does anyone with first hand knowledge of the process willing to share: 1. is this generally accurate, 2. any more specifics on the process for prioritizing a hypothetical expansion and 3. has there to date been any public discussion or is there any realistic chance that such a downtown<->west side<->AS route would take precedence?

Thanks.

[(four 0 four)]

From the GDOT website about High Speed Rail between ATL and Chattanooga:

Public Information Meetings in November!
You are invited to attend a public information meeting to better understand the travel opportunities for the corridor, and provide your opinion on the potential high speed ground transportation alternatives to connect Atlanta to Chattanooga. With your help GDOT and its partners hope to create a long-term plan that will increase travel choices and access in this critical part of the southeast region. Please make an effort to attend one of the three meetings planned in November. We need your input.

Atlanta, GA
Tuesday, November 9
St. Mark United
Methodist Church
781 Peachtree St., NE
Atlanta, GA 30308
Fellowship Hall
6:00 p.m. - 8:00 p.m.
(presentation at 6:30PM)


The church is located on the east side of Peachtree between 4th and 5th Streets.

[cwkimbro]

I'm still curious about the Marietta St. segment of the streetcar and am wondering if any local planners and/or insiders to the process have any insights to share.

I know it's embodied in Concept 3, at least in some form. From an intown development and local transit perspective, it seems like this (extending the soon to be loop up Marietta St->west side->Atlantic Station) would be a savvy choice for the next round of expansion. However, I am admittedly not a transportation engineer, so I am curious to hear any informed technical views on why, say, the Peachtree segment is the better choice. Not to say that it ought not be a strong driver, but it seems like the push for that segment is driven by a coalition of local businesses, BIDs and Peachtree-mania.

I'm also curious about the decision for where the hypothetical expansion will be made and the process. If the city owns the assets and MARTA will be responsible for operations, it's seems clear the ultimate decision will be made there, presumably under the aegis of it's planning arms and TPB, with recommendations and support coming from orgs like ARC and the local BIDs. Does anyone with first hand knowledge of the process willing to share: 1. is this generally accurate, 2. any more specifics on the process for prioritizing a hypothetical expansion and 3. has there to date been any public discussion or is there any realistic chance that such a downtown<->west side<->AS route would take precedence?

Thanks.

I haven't been able to find many publicly posted reports on routes like this. They are not as far as long as things like the Beltline and so far there is no one willing to put money down on the earlier environmental and planning assessments. That also means there is more room for the plans to change over time.

For starters... let me provide this link to a better Concept 3 map. (http://www.transitboard.org/files/concept3_stylized.pdf)

This shows the corridor being serviced by a LRT line (potential to be a LRT that becomes a streetcar for the final leg) from Cobb into downtown. In the Concept 3 plan there will also be tracks from Cobb to Arts Center station (passing Atlantic Station), so there is room to do a Arts Center-Downtown line on the same tracks.

The "Connect Atlanta" plan, which is the City proper's long-term vision for travel in the city does not show this as a streetcar route, but it does show several others. (http://web.atlantaga.gov/connectatlanta/index.html)
It also lists the plans for the LRT from Cobb on it's transit priority sheet (http://www.dot.state.ga.us/informationcenter/p3/projects/mmpt/Documents/Reference%20Information/Connect%20Atlanta/Connect%20Atlanta%20Plan%20Transit%20Rankings.pdf)

The Project description is as follows:
"High speed/frequent LRT service with limited stations. Option A. Light Rail Transit on new exclusive alignment in shared right-of-way from Cobb County to Ga Tech and the Coca Cola Head Quarters, approximately via Marietta Blvd. to Marietta Street to 8th Street to Tech Parkway to Luckie Street. Then the LRT shifts to mixed flow alignment from Luckie Street to MARTA's North Avenue Station, approximately 1/2 mile, via North Avenue. The Alignment continues in mixed flow alignment to City Hall East and the Beltline, approximately 1.5 miles, via Ponce De Leon Blvd. Six potential stations in the City of Atlanta (Bolton Road, Carrol Drive, Beltline, Howell Mill, Luckie Street, MARTA's North Avenue Station, Piedmont Road, Boulevard, City Hall East (Beltline).Option B (Stops at Moores Mill, Huff Road area, Piedmont Hospital & Lindbergh) Instead of following Marietta to the southeast into downtown, it will now take Chattahoochee Road and then curve to the north around Ellsworth Industrial Road, following Beltline rail to the Lindbergh MARTA station."

-Note: These two options are 2 of 4 that are actually drawn on the Concept 3 map. If this happens... will all 4 options happen? Just 1?

My personal outlook on plans like Concept 3 is that as a whole the whole thing is unlikely to happen and/or subject to change. (Keep in mind many of these routes haven't been studied as a whole) However, what is important is that it is a long-term 'vision' with input from everyone. The Cobb LRT will only happen if they ever decide to put money down on it, one way or another. The importance is we can plan multiple projects in multiple jurisdictions knowing that if we build 'A' it can also later intersect with 'B' and 'C' and that will impact how everything works together and impact what 'A' should be built as.

One idea for two projects that are likely to happen is the Beltline and the Auburn streetcar. In the Streetcar proposal for stimulus funds they made a point the mention that the tracks used will be able to be used interchangeably with intersecting projects in the future. (FYI... The Aurburn streetcar is actually purchasing older/used LRT trains that were used in San Jose).

While it is completely -unplanned- and such a change would mean extra investment, we could potentially have routes on the beltline turn onto the streetcar routes into downtown in the future. Concept 3 helps us have this foresight to have this option in the future.

Instead of just a LRT line from Emory to Lindbergh we could use tracks on multiple projects and have the train travel from Cumberland to Emory-Decatur. Again, this is unplanned, but knowing an initial 'vision' we have more options 50 years down the road.

Does anyone else have more info?

[cybele]

Clearly. I have no intention to have another person agree or any predisposition to force myself to disagree, but rather my goal is to exchange information, ideas, and opinions.

Well, I am glad you are back, you always have some good ideas and facts and figures and so forth.

[CT340]

Georgia wins federal rail grant


http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2010/10/29/georgia-wins-federal-rail-grant.html#disqus_thread

Georgia landed a $4.1 million share of $2.4 billion in federal grants for high-speed rail projects announced Thursday by U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

Georgia’s grant, which will be shared with North Carolina and South Carolina, is planning money to help develop a high-speed rail line linking Atlanta with Charlotte, N.C.

The Atlanta-to-Charlotte segment would be part of a longer route extending north to Washington, D.C.

The U.S. Department of Transportation awarded funds Thursday to 54 high-speed rail projects in 23 states. The Federal Railroad Administration received 132 applications from 32 states.

“Demand for high-speed rail dollars is intense, and it demonstrates just how important this historic initiative is,” LaHood said. “States understand that high-speed rail represents a unique opportunity to create jobs, revitalize our manufacturing base, spur economic development and provide people with an environmentally friendly transportation option.”

President Barack Obama first made his commitment to improving rail service clear last year when he set aside $8 billion from the federal economic stimulus program for high-speed rail projects.

Georgia’s share of the grants announced Thursday, a second round of awards, will be administered by the state Department of Transportation’s Intermodal Division.


Read more: Georgia wins federal rail grant | Atlanta Business Chronicle

[dante2308]

Well, I am glad you are back, you always have some good ideas and facts and figures and so forth.

Thanks :tup:

Just because I feel like it I'm going to present a little tidbit on highway capacity.

The capacity of a highway is driven by the average speed of the vehicles and the spacing of the vehicles. Drivers are supposed to keep a 2 second spacing which roughly corresponds to a safe reaction time and the natural spacing inclination drivers feel safe with.

Speed is actually the smallest portion of that factor unless the average speed runs extremely low.

Calculation:

65 miles per hour ----> 0.136 seconds for the average length vehicle to pass
a point

30 miles per hour ----> 0.295 seconds

10 miles per hour ----> 0.886 seconds

So therefore, assuming 1.4 average occupancy and 2 second separation the highway capacity per hour per lane per given station is as follows:

65mph : 2360 people per hour

30mph (heavy congestion): 2196 people per hour

10mph (traffic stops most of the time, usually due to hyper merging, an accident, construction, or a combination): 1746 people per hour

What occurs usually is that traffic will hit a critical limit and people will naturally slow down and thus reduce the capacity. Then people will start shuffling lanes which will further slow down traffic and reduce capacity. Then as merging becomes difficult traffic feeding onto the highway can cause an intermittent full stop.

Keeping in mind that average speed is what is key, not intermittent stops, unless there is a dire issue, traffic will flow at average rates over 10 mph even during the roughest rush hour. Let's factor in the affect of one HOT lane and three normal lanes versus four normal lanes, then finally one HOV lane and three normal lanes.

The toll of the HOT lane is designed to discourage some to use the lane and thus keep it relatively clear. The capacity of a normal four lane highway (per direction) is 9440 assuming 65 mph average (the OTP speed limit).

An assumption that the HOT lane discourages only 25% of travelers in any given situation is reasonable and probably generous. The calculated average capacity of such a lane is 2.31 according to at least one source. Therefore at 65 miles per hour, such a system would have a per hour capacity of 10,000 people per hour. This of course assumes that the normal lane occupancy rate stays the same (error correction).This is clearly better than normal lanes alone.

An HOV lane system would have a capacity, using the same methodology, of 10,937.

Taken alone, this would indicate that adding a toll to an HOV lane would be counter intuitive to a goal of increasing transportation capacity and would actually lower the critical congestion point.

Now what happens at rush hour takes a bit of mathematical magic. The HOT lane would reach congestion when 3,893 people try to use it, the same point an HOV would, however 25% of people are discouraged to use it according to this model. So there are a few scenarios. To summarize, the HOT would only provide an advantage over the HOV if between 10,937 and 12,250 people try to use the highway system. Any more or any less and the HOV system would move more traffic or be generally no different. This is actually the best case scenario, because if the HOT discouraged more than 40% of people, the traffic capacity would be so severely lowered that the highway system would be worse than if there were no high occupancy lanes at all no matter what the traffic situation.

Note: Several assumptions are made here to simplify the calculations . Also the best case for HOT lanes, the scenario where the HOT is at full free-flowing 65 mph capacity and the other lanes are fully congested (10 mph case) would have a capacity of 9,131 versus 5,238 for four normal lanes and 8188 at for HOV (at 10 mph). Effectively the result, in the very best and unlikely case would be to cause congestion 1,000 cars earlier to allow the passage of 1000 more cars after congestion is created. Or a 9% decrease in highway capacity to raise it 11% after all the cars can't move, but only for cars that pay a toll. The rest would be stuck in traffic that may not have congested if the HOT was an HOV.

It is an interesting trade off, but I don't really see why someone would actually advocate HOT. Perhaps to raise money or to punish poor drivers or drivers in general.

[dante2308]

Georgia wins federal rail grant


http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2010/10/29/georgia-wins-federal-rail-grant.html#disqus_thread

Georgia landed a $4.1 million share of $2.4 billion in federal grants for high-speed rail projects announced Thursday by U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood.

Georgia’s grant, which will be shared with North Carolina and South Carolina, is planning money to help develop a high-speed rail line linking Atlanta with Charlotte, N.C.

The Atlanta-to-Charlotte segment would be part of a longer route extending north to Washington, D.C.

The U.S. Department of Transportation awarded funds Thursday to 54 high-speed rail projects in 23 states. The Federal Railroad Administration received 132 applications from 32 states.

“Demand for high-speed rail dollars is intense, and it demonstrates just how important this historic initiative is,” LaHood said. “States understand that high-speed rail represents a unique opportunity to create jobs, revitalize our manufacturing base, spur economic development and provide people with an environmentally friendly transportation option.”

President Barack Obama first made his commitment to improving rail service clear last year when he set aside $8 billion from the federal economic stimulus program for high-speed rail projects.

Georgia’s share of the grants announced Thursday, a second round of awards, will be administered by the state Department of Transportation’s Intermodal Division.


Read more: Georgia wins federal rail grant | Atlanta Business Chronicle

I assume that this $4.1 million will go towards a higher tiered feasibility study.

[cwkimbro]

Thanks :tup:

Just because I feel like it I'm going to present a little tidbit on highway capacity.

The capacity of a highway is driven by the average speed of the vehicles and the spacing of the vehicles. Drivers are supposed to keep a 2 second spacing which roughly corresponds to a safe reaction time and the natural spacing inclination drivers feel safe with.

Speed is actually the smallest portion of that factor unless the average speed runs extremely low.

Calculation:

65 miles per hour ----> 0.136 seconds for the average length vehicle to pass
a point

30 miles per hour ----> 0.295 seconds

10 miles per hour ----> 0.886 seconds

So therefore, assuming 1.4 average occupancy and 2 second separation the highway capacity per hour per lane per given station is as follows:

65mph : 2360 people per hour

30mph (heavy congestion): 2196 people per hour

10mph (traffic stops most of the time, usually due to hyper merging, an accident, construction, or a combination): 1746 people per hour

What occurs usually is that traffic will hit a critical limit and people will naturally slow down and thus reduce the capacity. Then people will start shuffling lanes which will further slow down traffic and reduce capacity. Then as merging becomes difficult traffic feeding onto the highway can cause an intermittent full stop.

Keeping in mind that average speed is what is key, not intermittent stops, unless there is a dire issue, traffic will flow at average rates over 10 mph even during the roughest rush hour. Let's factor in the affect of one HOT lane and three normal lanes versus four normal lanes, then finally one HOV lane and three normal lanes.

The toll of the HOT lane is designed to discourage some to use the lane and thus keep it relatively clear. The capacity of a normal four lane highway (per direction) is 9440 assuming 65 mph average (the OTP speed limit).

An assumption that the HOT lane discourages only 25% of travelers in any given situation is reasonable and probably generous. The calculated average capacity of such a lane is 2.31 according to at least one source. Therefore at 65 miles per hour, such a system would have a per hour capacity of 10,000 people per hour. This of course assumes that the normal lane occupancy rate stays the same (error correction).This is clearly better than normal lanes alone.

An HOV lane system would have a capacity, using the same methodology, of 10,937.

Taken alone, this would indicate that adding a toll to an HOV lane would be counter intuitive to a goal of increasing transportation capacity and would actually lower the critical congestion point.

Now what happens at rush hour takes a bit of mathematical magic. The HOT lane would reach congestion when 3,893 people try to use it, the same point an HOV would, however 25% of people are discouraged to use it according to this model. So there are a few scenarios. To summarize, the HOT would only provide an advantage over the HOV if between 10,937 and 12,250 people try to use the highway system. Any more or any less and the HOV system would move more traffic or be generally no different. This is actually the best case scenario, because if the HOT discouraged more than 40% of people, the traffic capacity would be so severely lowered that the highway system would be worse than if there were no high occupancy lanes at all no matter what the traffic situation.

Note: Several assumptions are made here to simplify the calculations . Also the best case for HOT lanes, the scenario where the HOT is at full free-flowing 65 mph capacity and the other lanes are fully congested (10 mph case) would have a capacity of 9,131 versus 5,238 for four normal lanes and 8188 at for HOV (at 10 mph). Effectively the result, in the very best and unlikely case would be to cause congestion 1,000 cars earlier to allow the passage of 1000 more cars after congestion is created. Or a 9% decrease in highway capacity to raise it 11% after all the cars can't move, but only for cars that pay a toll. The rest would be stuck in traffic that may not have congested if the HOT was an HOV.

It is an interesting trade off, but I don't really see why someone would actually advocate HOT. Perhaps to raise money or to punish poor drivers or drivers in general.

You've provided a good start for looking at this, but the analysis assumes blanket assumptions and assumptions that stay constant instead of -variable- to the conditions that are present. Human behavior changes with conditions. You are also making a false assumption that the HOV lane capacity doesn't max out and get congested and if it doesn't that the HOV lane operates at peak capacity instead of under peak capacity.


Assume for a second that no one speeds...and the speed limit is 65mph. (just for the sake of simplifying the scenario and point... in practicality this assumption doesn't matter)

If three lanes are flowing at 65mph there is no incentive for anyone to use the lane unless...the price of the lane at that moment is $0.00 or they can use it for free via a hybrid system as a bus lane or a hyrbid as an HOV lane (+2 or +3, etc...). Some systems are hybrid HOV+2 and some are HOV+3 and a few don't allow HOV, but just transit. In the case of the I-85 N corridor it is HOV+3+transit. Previously the lane was HOV+2, but got congested and suffered the consequences of lowered capacity+slower transit. However, there are not enough HOV+3 cars to completely utilize the lane capacity effectively.


The early stages of congestion starts... In the three lanes traffic slows from 65 to 60. It's still really early, the price goes up but stays cheap. The price stays cheap enough that encourages cars to move to the HOT lane even just to go slightly faster than the general lanes, but expensive enough to prevent the HOT lane from being as congested as the general lane.

As conditions get worse in the general lanes, the price changes in the HOT lane to influence it to keep operating at peak capacity regardless of what the general lanes do. In other words the price goes up.

In other words ... you can't have a blanket assumption that the HOT lane discourages a fixed percentage of cars from using it.

--The lane itself is designed to have a variable pricing procedure to encourage/discourage the right amount of cars to keep the lane operating at peak capacity.--

The only conditions that would exists where you get a loss of capacity from the HOT lane is when the system is new and people need to sign up for a toll account, the system's variable price tolling strategy and computer system needs to be re-programmed to peoples behavior more efficiently, and/or the entry/exits need to implemented better. The first condition only exists as the HOT lane is started and the last two are conditions that can be engineered to make the system work effectively.

If you maintain HOV+2, the HOV+2 lane gets congested and capacity is lowered. HOV+3 will be used by too few cars. If you change it to HOV+3/HOT then capacity is maintained, which keeps cars moving and shortens congestion in the general purpose lanes.

Even if you widen the road to maintain HOV+2 without congestion, you can still sell excess capacity as a HOT lane that keeps capacity moving, but will pull more cars off the general lanes.


In the scenario with I-85N the only way conditions could get worse is under the following condition:
# of drivers that change from HOV+2 to SOV > Capacity increase from HOT service causing congested HOV+2 to be free flowing + increase transit ridership from quicker commuter bus.

But, there is an incentive that some (not all) HOV+2 riders will stay HOV+2, since they can use the HOT lane at half price (if split between the carpool). Another option I wish the I-85 North corridor would consider is offer a small discount for HOV+2 to influence 2-person carpools at staying 2-person carpools, but even as a carpool the lane can be managed/priced/behavior adjusted to maintain peak capacity.

The only scenario where HOV+2 (+3, etc..) can be better than the HOT lane is if there just happens to be the right number of HOV+2 at every given moment to keep the HOV+2 operating at peak capacity. However, this is extremely improbable as conditions change over time. Even if it operated at peak capacity at one point in time, 15 minutes later it could be below capacity or there won't be enough HOV+2 drivers to make full use of the space in the HOV+2 lane that a few SOV could use.

I know people are skeptical about the simple fact that it is a -toll-, but it is the only way for a system to manage a lane to operate at peak capacity (not above or lower) throughout the peak load time. This is because it is the only way to fluidly/variably influence human behavior at any given time.

Everyone has a price point at when they would get in the lane or get out.

[RobMidtowner]

It is an interesting trade off, but I don't really see why someone would actually advocate HOT. Perhaps to raise money or to punish poor drivers or drivers in general.

When a HOV lane reaches capacity, the incentive to use it is gone. The purpose of an HOT lane is to control access to the lane and guarantee a minimum speed. It's the fairest way to ration the shortage of space. It's a smarter way to operate a lane that is over capacity, so I don't really see why anyone would be against it.

[Pessimistic Observer]

When a HOV lane reaches capacity, the incentive to use it is gone. The purpose of an HOT lane is to control access to the lane and guarantee a minimum speed. It's the fairest way to ration the shortage of space. It's a smarter way to operate a lane that is over capacity, so I don't really see why anyone would be against it.

from what i understand the "biggest" problem with this system is the fact
that tolls are advertised as ways to pay for roads and in this case nothing
is being publicised about what this "toll" pays for
personally i could care less as long as it doesnt cost anything to register

[BlindFatSnake]

I just had to respond to this one. It's great! I just love this comment.

http://www.zap16.com/zapnew/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/boeing-777-228er-f-gspx-air-france-300x225.jpg

Socialist Eurotrash with their space age garbage can on wheels. This type of thing will never come to America.

Dante, if you like comparing apples to oranges (er, in this case planes to buses) then continue to drink the moonshine.

A double-decker plane encounters the same obstacles (in the air) as a regular plane... But, a garbage can on wheels creates so many hazards on the road the public would never embrace this flawed concept.

You, however, seem to be the only idiot working tirelessly to convince others that this bullshit will fly - even to the point of discounting deaths that could possibly occur due to this idiotic concept. WOW, did your mother teach you to have any compassion for living human beings? You sound like a drunken ass.. :rolleyes:

[BlindFatSnake]

Treating the American people as stupid children will lead to our downfall. Do it too long and we will become stupid children.

If you think the American people (the voting public) will embrace the garbage can on wheels when it has not even been manufactured, let alone been tested, then you are guilty of drinking the koolaid...

You stated the super bus would transport 1400, but the article says the original estimate of 1200 is now in the hundreds. Where there is one LIE, there several more to be uncovered with this bullshit.

You also advocate taking up a existing lane to create two lanes of HOV for this idiotic people mover. Good luck trying to convince the voters to buy that ideal while reducing the number of lanes available to drivers in a car-centered town like Atlanta.

You remind me of the A student who could argue that a porcupine what nothing more than a skunk with thorns, and the teacher would reward you with an A for your clever (yet flawed) observation. But the class knew you would be forever relegated to a life of loneliness and rejection because you thought you were soooooo much smarter than the rest of us, and had no problems telling us how "if we would just shut up and listen" we'd learn something... :jester:

Truth be had, that HOT rock you were hiding under needs it's lonely companion... Please take another sabbatical or at least pay attention to John Stewarts "Restoring Sanity" speech. :koko: Thank you very much!

[RobMidtowner]

from what i understand the "biggest" problem with this system is the fact
that tolls are advertised as ways to pay for roads and in this case nothing
is being publicised about what this "toll" pays for
personally i could care less as long as it doesnt cost anything to register

From GDOT's website on HOT lanes:

"The funds generated will be used to defray the costs of construction, operations and maintenance of the lanes. Long term revenue allocation is being studied and a decision about future excess revenues will be made later in the project process."

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/informationcenter/activeprojects/Interstates/I85hotlanes/Pages/FAQs.aspx

Of course for some the answer is "they're just taking more of my hard earned money and not giving me anything for it...why should i have to pay for something that's already paid for?" But in reality, it makes available a relief from congestion for someone in a hurry and it is only a cost to users who choose to pay.

[dante2308]

BFS, really, I don't know what your problem is. Please work through your issues. This isn't a contest of who is smarter.

[BlindFatSnake]

BFS, really, I don't know what your problem is. Please work through your issues. This isn't a contest of who is smarter.

My money is on light rail coming to metro Atlanta in a BIG way, while your garbage-can-on-wheels proposal/idea is headed for the trash heap long before voters even get a chance to ponder the merits of such hogwash... Really, Dante, it's a super flawed proposal for the U.S. Just let it go...:cheers:

[dante2308]

You've provided a good start for looking at this, but the analysis assumes blanket assumptions and assumptions that stay constant instead of -variable- to the conditions that are present. Human behavior changes with conditions. You are also making a false assumption that the HOV lane capacity doesn't max out and get congested and if it doesn't that the HOV lane operates at peak capacity instead of under peak capacity.


Assume for a second that no one speeds...and the speed limit is 65mph. (just for the sake of simplifying the scenario and point... in practicality this assumption doesn't matter)

If three lanes are flowing at 65mph there is no incentive for anyone to use the lane unless...the price of the lane at that moment is $0.00 or they can use it for free via a hybrid system as a bus lane or a hyrbid as an HOV lane (+2 or +3, etc...). Some systems are hybrid HOV+2 and some are HOV+3 and a few don't allow HOV, but just transit. In the case of the I-85 N corridor it is HOV+3+transit. Previously the lane was HOV+2, but got congested and suffered the consequences of lowered capacity+slower transit. However, there are not enough HOV+3 cars to completely utilize the lane capacity effectively.


The early stages of congestion starts... In the three lanes traffic slows from 65 to 60. It's still really early, the price goes up but stays cheap. The price stays cheap enough that encourages cars to move to the HOT lane even just to go slightly faster than the general lanes, but expensive enough to prevent the HOT lane from being as congested as the general lane.

As conditions get worse in the general lanes, the price changes in the HOT lane to influence it to keep operating at peak capacity regardless of what the general lanes do. In other words the price goes up.

In other words ... you can't have a blanket assumption that the HOT lane discourages a fixed percentage of cars from using it.

--The lane itself is designed to have a variable pricing procedure to encourage/discourage the right amount of cars to keep the lane operating at peak capacity.--

The only conditions that would exists where you get a loss of capacity from the HOT lane is when the system is new and people need to sign up for a toll account, the system's variable price tolling strategy and computer system needs to be re-programmed to peoples behavior more efficiently, and/or the entry/exits need to implemented better. The first condition only exists as the HOT lane is started and the last two are conditions that can be engineered to make the system work effectively.

If you maintain HOV+2, the HOV+2 lane gets congested and capacity is lowered. HOV+3 will be used by too few cars. If you change it to HOV+3/HOT then capacity is maintained, which keeps cars moving and shortens congestion in the general purpose lanes.

Even if you widen the road to maintain HOV+2 without congestion, you can still sell excess capacity as a HOT lane that keeps capacity moving, but will pull more cars off the general lanes.


In the scenario with I-85N the only way conditions could get worse is under the following condition:
# of drivers that change from HOV+2 to SOV > Capacity increase from HOT service causing congested HOV+2 to be free flowing + increase transit ridership from quicker commuter bus.

But, there is an incentive that some (not all) HOV+2 riders will stay HOV+2, since they can use the HOT lane at half price (if split between the carpool). Another option I wish the I-85 North corridor would consider is offer a small discount for HOV+2 to influence 2-person carpools at staying 2-person carpools, but even as a carpool the lane can be managed/priced/behavior adjusted to maintain peak capacity.

The only scenario where HOV+2 (+3, etc..) can be better than the HOT lane is if there just happens to be the right number of HOV+2 at every given moment to keep the HOV+2 operating at peak capacity. However, this is extremely improbable as conditions change over time. Even if it operated at peak capacity at one point in time, 15 minutes later it could be below capacity or there won't be enough HOV+2 drivers to make full use of the space in the HOV+2 lane that a few SOV could use.

I know people are skeptical about the simple fact that it is a -toll-, but it is the only way for a system to manage a lane to operate at peak capacity (not above or lower) throughout the peak load time. This is because it is the only way to fluidly/variably influence human behavior at any given time.

Everyone has a price point at when they would get in the lane or get out.

First I already acknowledged the issue of assumptions. I usually do them in order to avoid my natural tendency to calculate everything from every angle. At some point, a variable needs to be fixed in order for a conclusion to be presented.

A variable toll addresses the issue of capacity reduction, and I do feel that enough study would create a formula by where the demand for the lane is automatically fixed to the capacity of the lane.

I also like the idea of selling excess capacity to single occupancy vehicles when the double HOV isn't full. (My reasons for advocating a double HOV are because of the benefit to traffic flow when a car has the ability to pass a slower moving vehicle and the compound incentive to ride with someone else.)

Alright, I'm on board with that to a degree.

My goal is to end the concept of congestion through prudent planning as congestion is an economic and quality of life negative. In order to accomplish this, I'd like to increase capacity above what is needed during peak hours, and furthermore do it the cheapest way possible.

The benefit of grade separated rail is that it does not interact with congestion no matter the conditions. In the straddling bus, I saw the possibility of achieving the same, with some intelligent civil engineering, without the cost associated with heavy rail.

A peak capacity HOT with buses still has a few drawbacks to this, most notably the fact that the bus will have to exit the highway to stop and that a stop every, say 2 miles (i.e along the route as opposed to point to point), means that the bus really can't really access the HOT at all.

As for interactions between cars and the straddling bus, I've considered a thin, but effective physical barrier between the bus and the traffic. Of course, I never suggested that this come to Atlanta. I do, however, think that with a few test courses and some smart people, it can be achieved with a tangible benefit.

[dante2308]

My money is on light rail coming to metro Atlanta in a BIG way, while your garbage-can-on-wheels proposal/idea is headed for the trash heap long before voters even get a chance to ponder the merits of such hogwash... Really, Dante, it's a super flawed proposal for the U.S. Just let it go...:cheers:

Light rail isn't a God and suggesting anything else isn't blasphemy. I'm not competing with light rail at all. Please calm yourself.

[dante2308]

You are also making a false assumption that the HOV lane capacity doesn't max out and get congested and if it doesn't that the HOV lane operates at peak capacity instead of under peak capacity.

I just had to say here that I made no such assumption. I used a congested HOV in all my comparison calculations. In fact I assumed that the HOV was exactly as congested as the rest of the lanes after the critical point in order to assume the best case comparison for HOT. Mathematically there are enough HOV cars in 4 lanes of traffic to fill one of them as an HOV lane so without a disincentive like a toll, it merely acts as a capacity enhancer.

All my assumptions were geared towards showing the best case for HOT, not to cast it in an unfair light.

Also speeding doesn't cause much of a difference. If the cars were averaging 130 miles per hour, it would only amount to a 2.6% increase in capacity. At light speed, the highway would have a 5.5% increase in capacity.

[BlindFatSnake]

I just had to respond to this one. It's great! I just love this comment.

http://www.zap16.com/zapnew/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/boeing-777-228er-f-gspx-air-france-300x225.jpg

Socialist Eurotrash with their space age garbage can on wheels. This type of thing will never come to America.

SINGAPORE — Qantas grounded its Airbus A380 fleet after one of the superjumbo jets blew out an engine Thursday, shooting flames and raining large metal chunks before making a safe emergency landing in Singapore with 459 people aboard.

Firefighters surround a Qantas passenger plane which made an emergency landing in Singapore's Changi International Airport after having engine problems on Thursday Nov. 4, 2010 in Singapore. The Qantas jetliner made an emergency landing Thursday in Singapore with 459 people aboard, after one of its four engines shut down over western Indonesia and following witness reports of a blast that sent debris hurtling to the ground. The airliner denied there had been any explosion, and said the plane landed safely with no injuries. (AP Photo/Wong Maye-E)

Qantas said there had been no explosion, but witnesses aboard the plane and on the ground reported blasts. Officials in Indonesia said the engine trouble could not have been related to recent volcanic eruptions of Mount Merapi, some 800 miles (1,300 kilometers) to the east.

Knowing the American public will not ride a Garbage-Can-On-Wheels (the Super Bus) = Foresight
Not understandings statistical harangue is meaningless to a voting public = Nerdsville
Debunking one of Dante's many sociopathic ideologies = Priceless :jester:

[BlindFatSnake]

Clayton County - MARTA Referendum
Response Votes
YES 28,538 70%
NO 12,413 30%

Compare the number of yes votes for the MARTA referendum with the number of votes for Barnes... Scary (but this is Georgia politics)...

County Barnes Deal Monds Total
Clayton 28,110 5,616 1,171 34,897

[teejay]

My house has never caught on fire nor has my cat ever been stuck in a tree, therefore I don't want to pay for fire protection....



That's a rather useless metaphor. Questioning the value of a new mode of transportation that serves, at best, 2% of the population is not the same thing as questioning the fire department that, let's assume, serves the 2% of people whose homes catch fire. Societal harm isn't just about probability, but probability factored by damage in the event the harm arises.

[Pessimistic Observer]

That's a rather useless metaphor. Questioning the value of a new mode of transportation that serves, at best, 2% of the population is not the same thing as questioning the fire department that, let's assume, serves the 2% of people whose homes catch fire. Societal harm isn't just about probability, but probability factored by damage in the event the harm arises.

i think he was refferring to fire insurance not the fire department

[dante2308]

BFS, it seems that you missed a layer of irony. Of course, it was worth the chuckle I'm having now.

The Air France jet I posted was intentionally a US-built Boeing 777 and not an Airbus model, and specifically a model that sold well to US carriers. As for the A380, which is your own special tangent and I'm trying to determine how it is an article about an emergency landing became a referendum on me, the American public has zero interest in what plane they are or are not flying. It is a matter of economics and profitability. If you were ticketed for a flight on an A380, you would simply board and be slightly confused when you saw a staircase. Most people would find it gosh-darn amazing, the vast majority of which wouldn't know such a thing even existed. No one would change their ticket.

Furthermore, I tend to ignore your name calling as it really has more to do with your own personality issues and upbringing. I only fear that you waste your time trying to insult me with the thought that we're still in middle school.

[BlindFatSnake]

Dante do you have any friends??? It must be really difficult having a conversation with someone who's always tryring to explain what they mean (or meant to say)... I can only surmise "Gosh-darn you're a butt"...

I will try to ignore you, but it's so hard not responding to your nonsense... Hope you're having a stat-filled day crunching numbers!

[dante2308]

How old are you? You're embarrassing yourself so much, I find it embarrassing.

Anyone want to talk about transit?

[Pessimistic Observer]

Democrats unseated exactly one Republican (state Rep. Jill Chambers of DeKalb County).

for those who dont know jill chambers was a major critic of marta and she chaired a committee that oversaw marta's finances

[L41A]

Democrats unseated exactly one Republican (state Rep. Jill Chambers of DeKalb County).

for those who dont know jill chambers was a major critic of marta and she chaired a committee that oversaw marta's finances

I didn't know that. That is some good news.

[cybele]

Well, what I heard was she went bankrupt herself while hollering at the MARTA on money and whatnot so she got beat.

[rythym]

uh huh, me too.
Didn't ya'll post at article.

[jew4life4948]

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/pricey-streetcar-wont-ease-726307.html

"Among 40 mass transit projects rated by regional planners, the streetcar project came in dead-last in half the categories used to measure impact. The ranking was coincidental and done after the city applied for a $47.6 million federal grant to help fund the project. Atlanta won the grant last month, beating out hundreds of competing projects in other cities.

The highest-scoring projects had the biggest regional impact, topped by a $5.6 billion commuter rail network and a $2.9 billion light rail line, from Kennesaw State University down through Cumberland and Lindbergh to Decatur. The most cost-effective project was a $133 million streetcar line on Ponce de Leon and North avenues in Atlanta."

Why am I not surprised that the the largest economic impact area basically follows the original MARTA 1974 concept.

[mike1986]

What I find pathetic about many of the opponents in the AJC article posted above is that these people expect the city of Atlanta to fund their Cobb or Gwinnett County commute. Maybe if Cobb and Gwinnett voted for MARTA years ago they would have trains. Maybe if Cobb and Gwinnett would vote for a penny sales tax they could have light rail or commuter rail. Why should Downtown/the city of Atlanta wait around for the rest of the metro area to get their act together? Why can't the city do something for itself to make it a better, more vibrant place? It shouldn't have to suffer because people in Cobb and Gwinnett County are too narrow minded to support transit improvements.

Again, this is a city of Atlanta project that will help spur much needed development Downtown. The development will occur - it has been proven in every city that has recently built a streetcar or light rail line. This project also includes much needed sidewalk improvements on portions of the route.

[dante2308]

Hmm, the article says:

"The highest-scoring projects had the biggest regional impact, topped by a $5.6 billion commuter rail network and a $2.9 billion light rail line, from Kennesaw State University down through Cumberland and Lindbergh to Decatur. The most cost-effective project was a $133 million streetcar line on Ponce de Leon and North avenues in Atlanta."

Somehow I just don't see how $133 million on a streetcar down Ponce is an apples to apples comparison to a commuter rail network or light rail. Unless the objective is the cheapest project that involves track. In which case I suggest a streetcar between me and Publix.

Regional large scale traffic and transportation issues are not on the same level of a slow-moving streetcar on a local road as people are quoted in there as saying. I'm thinking very hard right now about who would ride it and for what purpose and whether enough people would ride it to have any sort of impact on traffic on the road itself.

[cwkimbro]

Hmm, the article says:

"The highest-scoring projects had the biggest regional impact, topped by a $5.6 billion commuter rail network and a $2.9 billion light rail line, from Kennesaw State University down through Cumberland and Lindbergh to Decatur. The most cost-effective project was a $133 million streetcar line on Ponce de Leon and North avenues in Atlanta."

Somehow I just don't see how $133 million on a streetcar down Ponce is an apples to apples comparison to a commuter rail network or light rail. Unless the objective is the cheapest project that involves track. In which case I suggest a streetcar between me and Publix.

Regional large scale traffic and transportation issues are not on the same level of a slow-moving streetcar on a local road as people are quoted in there as saying. I'm thinking very hard right now about who would ride it and for what purpose and whether enough people would ride it to have any sort of impact on traffic on the road itself.

Because alot of people live right there. Transportation isn't just about large scale moving people long distances across the region. It is also about providing high-density areas a way to connect to the regional system without a car.

When the beltline is made it will also be a potential way to route light-rail/streetcars into midtown.

You mix that with the relatively really low cost of the project that would give it a high cost-effectiveness.

Such a project will also do alot to raise the nearby land values, which will give the city a greater ability to pay for operations as was also mentioned in the article for the Auburn Ave. segment.

The commuter rail system, which I also strongly support, is ultimately much more expensive to implement since it is designed to move people far greater distances and for one purpose. To save money it only operates during peak times and shares space with freight. I see this as having a high-cost effectiveness, but just for the suburban population that need to travel a long distance to get to work.

By comparison the streetcar is an all day thing. It will act as a circulator near the MARTA station, a means to connect denser developments and intown residents to MARTA and midtown, and a means to carry people to retail and nightlife within the neighborhood.

And on a side note... for those that are interested. the North Ave streetcar could be tied into the Cobb LRT in the future. One of the routes under consideration is to turn into a streetcar down North Ave. So in an odd way the North Ave. streetcar is part of the Cobb LRT plan, although it would not be built just for that purpose.

[dante2308]

No, that corridor doesn't realistically connect homes to businesses in any significant way. I think we should focus on TODs around all the MARTA stations before spending $133 million on a questionably useful route. If the goal is to arbitrarily raise land values so we can extract and tax more money from the people there, and we have $133 million to do it, I vote for better schools. Traffic on Ponce isn't all that bad and we have oh so many undeveloped transit corridors as it is.

[cwkimbro]

No, that corridor doesn't realistically connect homes to businesses in any significant way. I think we should focus on TODs around all the MARTA stations before spending $133 million on a questionably useful route. If the goal is to arbitrarily raise land values so we can extract and tax more money from the people there, and we have $133 million to do it, I vote for better schools. Traffic on Ponce isn't all that bad and we have oh so many undeveloped transit corridors as it is.

My family has lived in this area for many generations way back to when Atlanta was small. From the time that corridor was built it has always had lots of residents and businesses. You see old staples there like Mary Mac's Tea Room. The last decade has led to even more development. More of those 5-6 story tall condo/apartment buildings and more street level retail under them. The area near the now shuttered Old Spaghetti Factory is an excellent example. There are also dense residential areas near Piedmont and Juniper that would take advantage of the MARTA connection and easier access to retail stores along Ponce. There is also ample room for more of this type of development in the area as well. It has both the density and the ability to grow.

I'm trying to be as respectful as possible with your arguments, but still take them at face value, but when I hear someone say, "that corridor doesn't realistically connect homes to businesses in any significant way," I have to question how well you really know the area. It is almost like we are talking about two completely different places or perhaps you see those types of businesses and residents as being less important for transit.

And this doesn't even mention that it helps connect residents to Atlanta's tallest building and the many other offices in that area.

And again as I have discussed in previous posts on other issues... you don't just raise property values by arbitrarily taxing people in that area more. You raise them by creating demand for denser developments. More units on the same property leads to better tax proceeds, which provides a good source of funding for the operation of transit services itself. For those who live in single family homes a few blocks away and if there property values go up...well good for them. That is what most people want...more equity in their property.

[dante2308]

It is a matter of scale to me. You're talking about the BOA tower, the Coke Tower, the At&T tower, and Georgia Tech as employment centers, the shopping along Ponce and the surrounding residential areas. It isn't to say that there aren't businesses and residences along the route, I'm saying they are already connected, already have bus lines and the entire corridor is easily navigable by car with commute times an order of magnitude lower than the suburb-city commute.

What I don't understand is why we would focus so much money on one road to create something that isn't truly mass transit when we have so many underdeveloped areas around MARTA. Why not develop those? Why not create the kind of dense communities around them?

38 stations. That's how many transit oriented, high density, land-value appreciating areas we have to focus on. Some are well developed, most aren't, all have room for growth. When space runs low around those, then we can start throwing around hundreds of millions on novelties. Meanwhile, we have a practical commuter issue and commuter rail and light rail with an eye towards connecting disconnected regions should be first priority.

[dante2308]

By the way, it isn't that the taxes raise the land values. I never said that. Though I keep hearing that the purpose of raising land values is to extract more money per-capita to pay for other things. The thought was that having transit near by raises the value of the properties in the area because realtors can use it as a selling point to increase demand. That demand encourages developers to fill that increased demand by offering high density units. However, from the perspective of a home-owner, whether or not they plan to sell their house, whether or not they can afford it,whether or not they use the streetcar, they have to pay hundreds, maybe thousands more a year in property taxes.

[cwkimbro]

By the way, it isn't that the taxes raise the land values. I never said that. Though I keep hearing that the purpose of raising land values is to extract more money per-capita to pay for other things. The thought was that having transit near by raises the value of the properties in the area because realtors can use it as a selling point to increase demand. That demand encourages developers to fill that increased demand by offering high density units. However, from the perspective of a home-owner, whether or not they plan to sell their house, whether or not they can afford it,whether or not they use the streetcar, they have to pay hundreds, maybe thousands more a year in property taxes.

I can just imagine now... all those poor home owners are going to be complaining they have made so much money in the equity of their home, they will have access to a nice new streetcar, and their neighborhood might grow even nicer with urban renewal. Tough life. I'm sorry, but most people want their home value to go up and are more fearful of it going down or stay stagnant.

And yes... it is a matter of scale. That is why it is soooo much cheaper than commuter rail or a long light rail line. The area is dense enough it still has a good cost-effective ratio with a relatively short rail corridor. The increase in tax revenues can also pay for the extra operations costs. I just don't see why that is hard to understand.

And this also fails to mention that is serves a good urban circulator to and from MARTA's core system

[dante2308]

I remember when the bubble was gearing up in South Florida. My great grand uncle, retired, lived in his house for as long as my parents were alive. All of a sudden, way past his working years, his house value shot up for no reason and with no change to the neighborhood. But you see he didn't want to leave. He figured his savings and cut back and as long as the taxes didn't get any higher, he could still scrap by. Of course they did and so fast. Those property taxes came due and bankrupted him forcing him to put his paid off home on the market, but you see then the market tanked... and while the house lost some value, it didn't put a dime back in his pocket and now there was no way to sell it.

But yay for land values!

Forcing people out of their homes since Jim Crow. Affordability be damned. One day, we can rid Ponce of anyone with a middle class income. And when land values go up like that, the people who are forced to cash out equity have to move into a smaller less convenient place because apparently the house they bought on a reasonable income is now too good for them. That extra cash buys less, so now they not only lost their house, they have to do with less just to be able to afford property taxes. And that's the BEST case scenario. If they can't find a buyer or can't bring themselves to be kicked out, they just lost thousands of dollars per year of their disposable income to the damn streetcar.

That's why I suggest that if you really want to put people through this crap, spend the money on better schools so at least their kids can be more upwardly mobile. The school quality has been depressing house values anyway.

[cwkimbro]

I remember when the bubble was gearing up in South Florida. My great grand uncle, retired, lived in his house for as long as my parents were alive. All of a sudden, way past his working years, his house value shot up for no reason and with no change to the neighborhood. But you see he didn't want to leave. He figured his savings and cut back and as long as the taxes didn't get any higher, he could still scrap by. Of course they did and so fast. Those property taxes came due and bankrupted him forcing him to put his paid off home on the market, but you see then the market tanked... and while the house lost some value, it didn't put a dime back in his pocket and now there was no way to sell it.

But yay for land values!

Forcing people out of their homes since Jim Crow. Affordability be damned. One day, we can rid Ponce of anyone with a middle class income. And when land values go up like that, the people who are forced to cash our equity have to move into a smaller less convenient place because apparently the house they bought on a reasonable income is now too good for them. That extra cash buys less, so now they not only lost their house, they have to do with less just to be able to afford property taxes. And that's the BEST case scenario. If they can't find a buyer, they just lost thousands of dollars per year of their disposable income to the damn streetcar.

Well I am deeply sorry for your uncle, but we are discussing increasing land values due to good infrastructure investment, but not increasing land values because of a housing bubble.

You are also failing to address that most of the increase in land value is caused by an increase in residential density. If someone owns a large lot home in a high land-value area they might be forced to move on to a cheaper area without a streetcar or into a smaller lot home or a condo. These people are relatively few and there are more options open to them. Additionally, if they sell after the streetcar line comes in and the land value goes up they would be able to afford a nicer home than they had before or choose to buy a home that costs the same amount and pocket the money and live a nicer retirement. But in the end of the day... if land values go up, because of adequate infrastructure investment, everyone can win.

If you ignore that, then you are essentially arguing we should never try to make an area nicer because the home values might go up.

If anything we make the area more affordable, because more people are living in condos that are cheaper to buy, even though the land it sits on has a higher value. They share that value with all the other owners in the building.

I feel sorry for your uncle. I really do, but streetcars and urban investment didn't make a housing bubble.

[dante2308]

No you can't buy a nicer home than you already have if you can't afford to live in the quality home you have. If a streetcar went down my uncle's road it wouldn't be worth being bankrupt.

And it wasn't really "relatively few people." The housing bubble in South Florida was so violent that their metro population went down for a few years forcing hundreds of thousands of families to move out (a train my own family had to ride out of town). If that Streetcar is a 1.5x multiplier on values I just don't see how it wont affect every single business and homeowner in the pocket.

And see I don't see the streetcar as an infrastructure improvement. What's wrong with the bus?

I have no problem with making a place nicer than it is, but I don't like that land values are used as a primary justification. I maintain that you can make your TODs where there is already transit and the city doesn't have to spend all that money on a cute bus on rails. Any increase in land value around a MARTA station today would come from actual value-added and the money can be directed towards filling an actual need.

Finally density isn't what drives values, it can, but values will shoot up whether or not a single new building is built, which is unlikely as it is with most developers shell shocked. Even if condos were going to shoot up because of a streetcar and we were bubbling like it was twenty oh seven, I'm trying to figure out where one can find this "affordable urban condo with access to transit." Perhaps a developer can build a condo on Ponce as is, as they already do, and offer a reasonable damn price.

[dante2308]

And thanks for expressing your sympathy, his children helping him out with that and his mounting medial bills.

[cybele]

I remember when the bubble was gearing up in South Florida. My great grand uncle, retired, lived in his house for as long as my parents were alive. All of a sudden, way past his working years, his house value shot up for no reason and with no change to the neighborhood. But you see he didn't want to leave. He figured his savings and cut back and as long as the taxes didn't get any higher, he could still scrap by. Of course they did and so fast. Those property taxes came due and bankrupted him forcing him to put his paid off home on the market, but you see then the market tanked... and while the house lost some value, it didn't put a dime back in his pocket and now there was no way to sell it.
.

Well, a man shouldn't never be forced out of his home on account of the dang taxes. The government is supposed to help, not take over. What they should do is put a freeze on them for people who has lived so many years in a certain neighborhood that's all of a sudden going up. Just put a lid on them till he sells or what have you.

[dante2308]

Well, a man shouldn't never be forced out of his home on account of the dang taxes. The government is supposed to help, not take over. What they should do is put a freeze on them for people who has lived so many years in a certain neighborhood that's all of a sudden going up. Just put a lid on them till he sells or what have you.

I honestly think the concept of property taxes should be thrown out. Base it on income alone. You buy something it's yours. You don't have to pay for it over and over again to the government for having it. Same applies to sales tax. You don't tax starving people for buying a sandwich and you don't tax old people for having a roof.

Of course this "gentrification" scheme is all planned out to be exactly like it is.

One of the plans in South Florida was that they changed the roof code arbitrarily so everyone who didn't have those pink shingles would have to buy a new roof or be in violation. What happened of course was the poorest areas had to sell to flippers and developers.

[echinatl]

I remember when the bubble was gearing up in South Florida. My great grand uncle, retired, lived in his house for as long as my parents were alive. All of a sudden, way past his working years, his house value shot up for no reason and with no change to the neighborhood. But you see he didn't want to leave. He figured his savings and cut back and as long as the taxes didn't get any higher, he could still scrap by. Of course they did and so fast. Those property taxes came due and bankrupted him forcing him to put his paid off home on the market, but you see then the market tanked... and while the house lost some value, it didn't put a dime back in his pocket and now there was no way to sell it.


This doesn't make sense, maybe I read what you wrote wrong.
1. If he lived there long enough to pay off his house he certainly could have sold it for whatever the going amount at the time was, even if it was below the peak amount. How can there be no way to sell a home that is paid off?
and
2. Large part of my family live in South Florida, and anyone of retirement age gets huge breaks on their property taxes. I have a family member that bought a condo 3 blocks from south beach for 20,000. Her home has gone up significantly over the last 20ish years and she's never had any problems.
3. There is the "Save our Homes" provision which keeps wild swings in property taxes from happening (locks the max swing to 3%).

[dante2308]

This doesn't make sense, maybe I read what you wrote wrong.
1. If he lived there long enough to pay off his house he certainly could have sold it for whatever the going amount at the time was, even if it was below the peak amount. How can there be no way to sell a home that is paid off?
and
2. Large part of my family live in South Florida, and anyone of retirement age gets huge breaks on their property taxes. I have a family member that bought a condo 3 blocks from south beach for 20,000. Her home has gone up significantly over the last 20ish years and she's never had any problems.
3. There is the "Save our Homes" provision which keeps wild swings in property taxes from happening (locks the max swing to 3%).

1) You need a buyer in order to sell a home. His home is actually not that nice and he's actually a stubborn cantankerous fellow. Furthermore, with medical expenses he's got more debt. Homelessness for petty cash is not a good trade. I'm not too intimately aware of what he's using for credit, he may have taken out a mortgage on his home.

2) and 3) refer to below...

[dante2308]

enchintatl, thanks for making me look this up. I never looked up the details of my uncle's situation. Does that make me a bad person? Sigh...

There is a $25,000 value exemption for senior citizens, and the Save the Homes which limits the value assessment to a 3% per year and has another 25k exemption.

But the senior citizen exemption does not apply to his town :(. Which means he was on the hook for the rise. Which though it sounds like a 3% increase, it really wasn't because it was incremental over the exemptions. So say his house was worth 50k, his taxes would go up 6% per year. The newest Save our Homes initiative raised the exemption by 25k in 2008 which is an improvement, but a late one.

It seems that he had money problems above and beyond property taxes. (I asked my mom) But I think the big issue was that he had to dig into his savings each year for it in the first place despite living way longer than he planned to. (He's my grandfather's uncle and has great great grandchildren).

Also this might be an issue:

Palm Beach County property owners for the second year in a row face the possibility of a double-digit tax rate increase to head off a looming budget shortfall.

The county's proposed tax rate would go up about 13 percent — just one year after a nearly 15 percent tax rate boost — to help cover a $100 million projected shortfall, according to the county's 2010-11 budget proposal released Tuesday.

[echinatl]

enchintatl, thanks for making me look this up. I never looked up the details of my uncle's situation. Does that make me a bad person? Sigh...

There is a $25,000 exemption for senior citizens, and the Save the Homes which limits the rise to 3% per year. Edit: The exemption does not apply to his town :(. Which means he was on the hook for the rise.

It seems that he had money problems above and beyond property taxes. (I asked my mom)

Huge bummer.
I've suddenly had to become somewhat familiar with miami property taxes because one of my relatives passed away and we're trying to figure out if we should sell or rent her place. Somehow she was able to get almost 100,000 in homestead exemptions, and since she was a widow, an extra 500 dollar deduction off what she owed after the homestead exemption was factored in. No joke the taxes are going to go from like 300ish that she was paying to 3,000!

[dante2308]

Huge bummer.
I've suddenly had to become somewhat familiar with miami property taxes because one of my relatives passed away and we're trying to figure out if we should sell or rent her place. Somehow she was able to get almost 100,000 in homestead exemptions, and since she was a widow, an extra 500 dollar deduction off what she owed after the homestead exemption was factored in. No joke the taxes are going to go from like 300ish that she was paying to 3,000!

Yeah read what I posted again with the edits. I just add to that post as I find more stuff.

The current exemptions for Miami (since you made me a tax expert) are: 50k + 25k for seniors over 65 plus $500 for a widow that I know of.

Whats with the ten fold increase? Is it the residual over the exemptions adding up?

Hmm it seems that if he does sell his house and buys one, then he'll have to pay more in taxes because the 3% cap doesn't apply to people who buy a home so he'll have to deal with the full value.

[echinatl]

That fact you mentioned that he'll have to pay property taxes at the full value of a new home is one of the main reasons we're dealing with this huge jump. So even though prices have come off their high's, the value of the home is still way higher than what the yearly 3% adjustments had her locked into. So not only is that $500.00 deduction no longer applied, and all of the homestead exemptions removed, the house was also reappraised.
I mean I totally see why the deductions should be removed, we certainly aren't living there, aren't a senior citizen, and I'm not a widow, so I'm not complaining..... but it still sucks! :)
This probably happens a lot, someone get's lucky and picks a house in an area that experiences a huge increase in value. There are some protections to keep people from being taxed out of their homes but what happens if you want to buy a house next door, you're priced out of the market. That's the free market at work!
Funny story, my college roommate has a house in a multimillion dollar neighborhood in Key Biscayne. His parents bought the house for 60,000 like 35 years ago. Everyone hates them because they've done nothing to the house, but they could sell it for 1.1 million just because of the location. BUT, they're able to stay because of the 3% lock. Basically everyone in the neighborhood hates them haha. It is literally the only house that's not a crazy mansion in this exclusive private gated community.

[BlindFatSnake]

Democrats unseated exactly one Republican (state Rep. Jill Chambers of DeKalb County).

for those who dont know jill chambers was a major critic of marta and she chaired a committee that oversaw marta's finances

That's major news... I'm so glad to hear she's no longer around!!!

[Pessimistic Observer]

http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/dekalb-mayors-to-demand-733524.html

all mayors in the county except Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed have agreed that a regional transit system, governed and funded by more than just Fulton and DeKalb counties, needs to be in place before a 2012 referendum on a sales tax for transportation.

A part of me agrees with this if there is no regional transit system on the ballot or in place dekalb and fulton will pay 1 cent for marta and another cent for some projects that would tie into or rely on marta much like gct and cobb county transit. if theres a regional transit system on the ballot then dekalb and fulton would be paying an extra cent in hopes that the regional system would take over marta some day

[dante2308]

Why Kasim?

[Pessimistic Observer]

Why Kasim?

cause kasim was a big part in getting the initial legislation through state congress. and this refarendum goes in small part against that legislation

[dante2308]

I'm happy as long as they NEVER expand heavy rail. Not until we have an extra 20 billion floating around that we were just going toss out anyway.

[cwkimbro]

http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/dekalb-mayors-to-demand-733524.html



A part of me agrees with this if there is no regional transit system on the ballot or in place dekalb and fulton will pay 1 cent for marta and another cent for some projects that would tie into or rely on marta much like gct and cobb county transit. if theres a regional transit system on the ballot then dekalb and fulton would be paying an extra cent in hopes that the regional system would take over marta some day

I'm not really sure it means much that Mayor Kasim Reed wasn't apart of this. I think he might produce statements later as needed, but given his status of being the mayor of the central city I think he needs to step up to a position of regional leadership that smaller cities in Dekalb and Fulton don't need to worry about jeopardizing politically as much.

One thing people will need to realize about this tax is if it fails for whatever reason it will lead the region to getting less state funds from the DOT. This is in part a way for the legislature to shift state taxation to sales tax, which is generally seen more favorable in Republican circles. It could be good for the Atlanta region though, in that we don't have to share our revenues with the rest of the state (currently we only get back a little more than 2/3 of what we give to the state).

It is very important in the initial negotiations leaders throughout the region can come up with a proposal voters will pass, which probably means no one will end up being totally happy in the end.

I have posted more expanded thoughts on the matter of the North Fulton Cities (and now the Dekalb cities) complaining about Gwinnett and Cobb Counties on another similar forum. I am not going to reiterate my entire arguments as they were quite lengthy, but I do want to provide some food for thought as we move forward.

I also want people to keep in mind that I am a Gwinnett Co. resident who would like to see Gwinnett Co. join MARTA and pay extra, but I do believe there are some financing concerns that have not been addressed in the more recent attempts of MARTA to entice Gwinnettians into joining and so far haven't been addressed (nor ignored) in the Dekalb/Fulton cities' complaints.

First, we need to acknowledge different parts of the region have different needs. Most people in Gwinnett will not use a MARTA like system in Gwinnett Co. for local trips within the county. Most of our needs are commuter oriented or for developing denser corridors in areas such as the Gwinnett Village CID or the Gwinnett Place Mall area. We also are already self funding our own bus system, which admittedly is not very expansive, but it has weak ridership in the areas where it is most likely to have success.

The last time MARTA approached Gwinnett they showed a vision of extending the the Northeast line, but only for a few stations and no bus service. It seems to me we wouldn't get much for that 1% and that Dekalb and Fulton Countiesy would always have far more under those plans.

Besides having less rail access we also wouldn't have MARTA busing, nor do most Gwinnettians want huge amounts of busing. About half of MARTA's expenses are spent operating their buses. The buses are primarily used for local area routes and circulators to/from rail stations, so I don't think Gwinnett or Cobb County would use those services much nor should the be liable for helping to pay for them.

What I do think is every county needs to help out with are the core services that are truly regional in nature. Mostly being operating costs of MARTA rail in core locations.

I am ok with Gwinnett's share in the beginning being largely spent to make a quicker capital investment within Gwinnett, but over the long run I don't feel things would equal for the money put in.

I want to see a clear coherent plan that would outline where Gwinnett's revenue goes. What percentage is spent on operations for overlapping regional services. What percentage is spent on operations and development within Gwinnett. I also think we need to open ourselves to the idea that if Gwinnett were to pay 1% extra in sales tax we should be able to eventually afford the two recommended commuter rail lines and certain BRT services.

I guess the major point I am trying to make is if the Fulton and Dekalb cities are going to attack us for not being apart of the MARTA system, I feel they need to try harder to work out who pays for what and what services Gwinnett would get for that 1% in the long run.

It is hard to sell to 800,000 Gwinnettians to pay into a 1% sales tax and they only get a small single line of HRT that doesn't cover the whole county. It would be an easier sell to say within 25 years you would get a HRT/LRT corridor, two commuter lines, BRT busing in accordance with Concept 3, X% would be used to help fund overall -regional- operations, and Y% to be spent for the Gwinnett transit bus, but none would be used to pay for local bus service in Dekalb and Fulton and each county/service area should pay for their own local circulators through their own sales tax proceeds. (Fulton and Dekalb I think desires/needs a higher level of bussing, whereas Gwinnett and Cobb is more spread out/less dense and many parts of the county will be more drive two a commuter station)

So regional system, yes, but we also need to have an honest conversation about where the money goes. So far we have only been approached with an unsellable plan that is making most people more weary of joining MARTA rather than excited about MARTA.

[mike1986]

I'm happy as long as they NEVER expand heavy rail. Not until we have an extra 20 billion floating around that we were just going toss out anyway.

Commuter rail and light rail are more affordable options for a regional system, however there are still some short areas where heavy rail should expand here... deeper into North Fulton to Roswell/Alpharetta, to Norcross, south of the Airport into Clayton County, and possibly west to Fulton Industrial.

[cwkimbro]

Commuter rail and light rail are more affordable options for a regional system, however there are still some short areas where heavy rail should expand here... deeper into North Fulton to Roswell/Alpharetta, to Norcross, south of the Airport into Clayton County, and possibly west to Fulton Industrial.

I agree with this notion. I think it is important that HRT connects the major regional multi-modal points. With the Norcross extension the most expensive part, bridging over I-285 is already done, the only barrier is politically created as Gwinnett needs to help fund it in some way.

I am on the fence about a few things though.

I am impressed with LRT's ability to improve an area and provide good connections 5-10 miles away from destination centers.

I am concerned that it is considerably slower with more stations, so I am having a hard time being sold on some plans and am curious about alternative options.

For example rather than build a LRT line from Norcross to Cumberland, build the HRT extension from Midtown to Cumberland and create bridges that allow trains to pass from the Northeast line to the Northwest and north lines and the northwest and north lines. I was thinking, even though the route is less direct, it could still move people between Norcross and Cumberland much quicker and move people between Perimeter and Norcross fairly quickly, as well as connect Cobb to the Atlanta core better.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not sold on that either, but I have those questions popping up in my head that we might be missing an opportunity to make a fast/core system that would connect to LRT lines that would continue further away from destination centers.

Edit: Also, Gwinnett's commuter rail lines could intersect at a new Armour station and the HRT lines could radiate to Perimeter, Norcross, Cumberland, Midtown from here. You wouldn't even need to make the Gwinnett commuter rail make it all the way downtown for most commuters.

[dante2308]

The Alpharetta line alone would cost six times as much as a light rail line with the best case scenario. No, I will not sacrifice 51 miles of light rail or 170 miles of commuter rail for a heavy rail stop in Alpharetta.

I just don't see the benefit.Then again if we have billions that we were going to throw away and already had a comprehensive transportation network then go for it. Money grows on trees and we have plenty of those.

I think the place to start would be commuter rail. A semi-comprehensive network would be cheap and palatable. Light rail should run between Doraville station and Cumberland and down to AS/Arts Center station. Any addition light rail should be built according to TOD demand. The Beltline should be fine, but I'm firmly against streetcars. A simple bus is at least as good as a streetcar unless someone can tell me a practical advantage.

[ATLaffinity]

. A simple bus is at least as good as a streetcar unless someone can tell me a practical advantage.

Because no tourist is stepping on a MARTA bus. It's not complicated.

As far as heavy rail, now is the perfect time to build out the system with unemployment so high. The Fed govt should spend more money (which IS created out of thin air) on improving subways. HSR is nice but it's not like I often need to get to Chattanooga really fast.

[shivtim]

I think the most obvious place for heavy rail is the Clifton Corridor (Emory/CDC area). There's already been a lot of planning, and the right away already exists from Lindbergh almost all the way to Decatur. The area has over 100,000 jobs (more than Midtown and Buckhead combined), the rate of job growth is higher than any other activity center in the metro area, there is a large captive student population, over-burdened roads, a large number of government workers, and younger-leaning demographics. All of these speak to how well used a heavy rail line would be.

It's actually quite embarrassing that there's not already some type of rail transit in that area.

[cybele]

I think the most obvious place for heavy rail is the Clifton Corridor (Emory/CDC area). There's already been a lot of planning, and the right away already exists from Lindbergh almost all the way to Decatur. The area has over 100,000 jobs (more than Midtown and Buckhead combined), the rate of job growth is higher than any other activity center in the metro area, there is a large captive student population, over-burdened roads, a large number of government workers, and younger-leaning demographics. All of these speak to how well used a heavy rail line would be.

It's actually quite embarrassing that there's not already some type of rail transit in that area.

Well, there was a thing I guess that said it was off.

http://www.decaturmetro.com/2010/11/02/light-rail-on-clairemont-road-no-longer-an-option/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+DecaturMetro+%28Decatur+Metro%29

[shivtim]

Cybele, I'm not sure you even read any of the things you post.

[ATLaffinity]

Shiv,

Great point about Emory/CDC. It's floating off by itself.

Probably the biggest "hole" in our transportation network. It would cost a lot of money and be completely worth it to create a world-class city.

[smArTaLlone]

The area has over 100,000 jobs (more than Midtown and Buckhead combined)

Where does this stat come from?

[shivtim]

^I've seen it in some of ARC's numbers. It is a bit misleading, because the Clifton Corridor is a huge area of DeKalb. Still, Emory/CDC combined have about 25,000 employees and could easily be served by one or two stations.

Here's a source that shows some of the numbers (page 7 of the PDF):
http://preview.itsmarta.com/uploadedFiles/About_MARTA/Planning/Clifon_Corr/Clifton%20Corridor%20AA%20Federal%20Transit%20Administration%20Study%20Initiation%20Package%20-%20July%202009.pdf

[cwkimbro]

I think the most obvious place for heavy rail is the Clifton Corridor (Emory/CDC area). There's already been a lot of planning, and the right away already exists from Lindbergh almost all the way to Decatur. The area has over 100,000 jobs (more than Midtown and Buckhead combined), the rate of job growth is higher than any other activity center in the metro area, there is a large captive student population, over-burdened roads, a large number of government workers, and younger-leaning demographics. All of these speak to how well used a heavy rail line would be.

It's actually quite embarrassing that there's not already some type of rail transit in that area.

I agree with the premise and it is in the planning works. However, I think Light rail will fit the corridor well. It is short, so the speed difference isn't very big. LRT would also be cheap enough to make it more flexible for hitting other nearby commercial centers if they choose that type of alignment.

The only complaint I have from the planning alignments. I think they need to go ahead and built the Armour MARTA station and run the line to there. If Cobb's LRT ever comes to Armour station there could potentially be a Emory/Cumberland route or a Beltline/Emory route in the future. If the tracks go to Lindbergh that option wouldn't be possible or as easy to construct. (I was hoping the long-term vision of Concept 3 plan would help planners think of these future/potential ideas, even if they aren't directly in a single projects plans)

(http://www.emoryvillage.org/pdfs/Community%20Fact%20Sheet_CCAA_FINAL.pdf) You can see on this map where some of the LRT/HRT choices would intersect where the Armour station/beltline would initially.

[dante2308]

Because no tourist is stepping on a MARTA bus. It's not complicated.

As far as heavy rail, now is the perfect time to build out the system with unemployment so high. The Fed govt should spend more money (which IS created out of thin air) on improving subways. HSR is nice but it's not like I often need to get to Chattanooga really fast.

Ponce is not the place one would expect a high volume of tourists, nor would building a streetcar generate 133 million in new tourism. As for heavy rail and unemployment, the point isn't to spend money on things that are overly expensive. If you have 100 dollars and you had to feed starving children, you don't start with the caviar and quail tongues.

There is never an excuse to buy something with no tangible benefit, even aesthetically to an alternative. None. Why on earth would you trade 60 miles of light rail for 10 miles of heavy rail?

As for Chattanooga, HSR wont be connecting Atlanta and that city anytime soon, but thousands of people do travel between the cities daily so I'm not quite sure if you are saying you have 2 hours you weren't using and wouldn't mind waiting around in a car for... because if so I suggest you walk instead of taking heavy rail. For the rest of us, time is money.

[jew4life4948]

MARTA's been conducting Clifton Corridor studies for the past decade, but recently with the advancement of support for the Athens/Brain Train it would best provide direct access to Midtown & Downtown Atlanta and other universities and research institutions across the metro area.

http://www.georgiabraintrain.com/graphics/jpgs/athens-atlanta-rail.jpg
http://www.georgiabraintrain.com/graphics/jpgs/athens-atlanta-rail-uni-NEW.jpg

[cwkimbro]

MARTA's been conducting Clifton Corridor studies for the past decade, but recently with the advancement of support for the Athens/Brain Train it would best provide direct access to Midtown & Downtown Atlanta and other universities and research institutions across the metro area.

http://www.georgiabraintrain.com/graphics/jpgs/athens-atlanta-rail.jpg
http://www.georgiabraintrain.com/graphics/jpgs/athens-atlanta-rail-uni-NEW.jpg

Well.. The proposal for this is pretty old too. The state DOT originally came up with it in the mid 90s. As much as I am dying to see this (I live in Lilburn) no one wants to fund it yet.

It is also more of a peak time commuter line for people that live further away from the city, where as the Clifton corridor is more of an all day higher capacity transit. MARTA also has the funding to build the Clifton Corridor in the long run and it is in their taxing district.

As someone who lives along the commuter rail alignment... I can't help but to notice they don't even need to built all the way to downtown at first to make it useful to most commuters. If it intersects with a new Armour Marta station commuters could directly access Perimeter, Buckhead, Midtown, Downtown easily though MARTA.

[dante2308]

It connects Emory to railed transit, that's worth something. I'd like to see this built. Personally, I graduated, but it would have been interesting to be able to take a train to Athens for the weekend.

[Chris Creech]

It would be so nice if eventually, at least one of these transit projects that's been kicked around for years actually saw some real concrete poured for a change. They do love to study stuff to death here, but it seems for most politios here that putting together a transit study is just a way to put it on the back burner till people forget about it.

[cwkimbro]

It would be so nice if eventually, at least one of these transit projects that's been kicked around for years actually saw some real concrete poured for a change. They do love to study stuff to death here, but it seems for most politios here that putting together a transit study is just a way to put it on the back burner till people forget about it.

But then we wouldn't have enough money for the studies silly!

And all the websites have to count for something! j/k

We got the Q BRT... thats kind of something... sort of ....

Does anyone live in that area or have any idea how well that plan is working?

[ATLaffinity]

Why on earth would you trade 60 miles of light rail for 10 miles of heavy rail?


To attract TALENT to Atlanta by making it a desirable place to live. People leave or don't live here in the first place because of the sprawl.

I'm sure buses are cheaper than light rail so you can't justify light rail. By your logic, MARTA should never have been built. Then we'd be like Birmingham or something.

[dante2308]

No that's your own personal hyperbole.

Aesthetically, to "talent" there is no reason a person would not move to Atlanta because they have 60 miles of light rail transit and 48 miles of heavy rail instead of 58 miles of heavy rail.

Think about that. Which is more attractive to someone who cares about the quality of transit? 108 miles of rail mass transit or 58 miles of it?

Which is functionally better for the city and the commuters?

And then commuter rail... which according to these guys: Brain train (http://www.garprail.org/documents/braintrainresponses.pdf) costs $5.32 million per mile. So then we can have 37 miles of commuter rail for every mile of heavy rail. We really have to ask ourselves if a single MARTA heavy rail stop in Roswell is worth 200 miles of commuter rail.

Buses are not trains, but commuter rail and light rail together accomplish exactly the same thing as heavy rail but at a tiny fraction of the cost.

I don't understand your argument. If you can please explain why heavy rail is better than light rail and therefore worth six times as much.

[BlindFatSnake]

http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitDallas_0810/B.SCOTT%20-%20TPB%20Concept%203%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

After reading eveyone concerns and opinions about the future of transit in metro Atlanta, I come away with these questions and observations... Especially after looking at Concept 3 - WTF...

1 - Atlanta doesn't have a comprehensive transit plans for the region (just lines on paper that may or may not be prioritized in phrases of implementation).

2 - The regional planners don't know what mode of transit for any single transit corridor (unless you care to count the various options: maybe light rail, maybe heavy rail, maybe commuter rail, maybe bus rapid transit - MORE IMPORTANTLY maybe just buses). Maybes do not get funded by the federal government - NEVER...

3 - The regional planners don't seem to know who will operate the next (or new) mode of transit in the region. Will it be MARTA, GRTA, CCT, or GCT? We don't know.

Consider this: in 2012 voters will be ask to go to the polls and vote on a 1 cent sales tax dedicated to a LIST OF PROJECTS. Is it better for the voters to know or not to know the following questions before they are ask to raise their sales taxes to fund specific projects?

a) what will their tax money build?
b) who will be in control of their tax money?
c) and, when will they see the tangible benefits of their tax money?

I think is is a major failure to ask votes to raise taxes and NOT know what the end result will be. Every other city that is seeking transit improvements have comprehensive plans they put before the voters.

In Atlanta, we seem to have concepts (not any one concrete plan, other than possibly the Beltline, which seems to drop MARTA connections like a hot potatoes).

Imagine telling voters in Gwinnett county they should vote for an increase in sales taxes to fund transit in metro Atlanta. Would they vote for this very vague plan? Or...

Would it be better to tell them a light rail line from Doraville MARTA station to Gwinnett Arena in Duluth with X number of stops will be built solely with Gwinnett county sales taxes, and to be operated by GCT? And, that none of your taxes will go to Clayton county for their rail projects?

I think specifics will get voters to the vote yes, and concepts (and a lack of accountability) will get voters to vote no. I'm just saying...

[cwkimbro]

http://www.ncppp.org/publications/TransitDallas_0810/B.SCOTT%20-%20TPB%20Concept%203%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

After reading eveyone concerns and opinions about the future of transit in metro Atlanta, I come away with these questions and observations... Especially after looking at Concept 3 - WTF...

1 - Atlanta doesn't have a comprehensive transit plans for the region (just lines on paper that may or may not be prioritized in phrases of implementation).

2 - The regional planners don't know what mode of transit for any single transit corridor (unless you care to count the various options: maybe light rail, maybe heavy rail, maybe commuter rail, maybe bus rapid transit - MORE IMPORTANTLY maybe just buses). Maybes do not get funded by the federal government - NEVER...

3 - The regional planners don't seem to know who will operate the next (or new) mode of transit in the region. Will it be MARTA, GRTA, CCT, or GCT? We don't know.

Consider this: in 2012 voters will be ask to go to the polls and vote on a 1 cent sales tax dedicated to a LIST OF PROJECTS. Is it better for the voters to know or not to know the following questions before they are ask to raise their sales taxes to fund specific projects?

a) what will their tax money build?
b) who will be in control of their tax money?
c) and, when will they see the tangible benefits of their tax money?

I think is is a major failure to ask votes to raise taxes and NOT know what the end result will be. Every other city that is seeking transit improvements have comprehensive plans they put before the voters.

In Atlanta, we seem to have concepts (not any one concrete plan, other than possibly the Beltline, which seems to drop MARTA connections like a hot potatoes).

Imagine telling voters in Gwinnett county they should vote for an increase in sales taxes to fund transit in metro Atlanta. Would they vote for this very vague plan? Or...

Would it be better to tell them a light rail line from Doraville MARTA station to Gwinnett Arena in Duluth with X number of stops will be built solely with Gwinnett county sales taxes, and to be operated by GCT? And, that none of your taxes will go to Clayton county for their rail projects?

I think specifics will get voters to the vote yes, and concepts (and a lack of accountability) will get voters to vote no. I'm just saying...

I agree , but I think you are being a little hard on concept 3. While alot of those are just lines on map... many of those have been considered in planning by different agencies.

What I like about Concept 3 is it brings most of them together, so when MARTA plans one project and GRTA plans another one and Cobb County considers LRT they can leave future options for bringing things together better.

Example... The city of Atlanta is using streetcar tracks than LRT trains will be able to run on, which could connect to the beltline and/or a Cobb LRT line.

The Cobb LRT might meet with the Beltline and could feasibly travel on to Emory is they use LRT for that alignment.

I have also noticed tons of subtle clues in that map about random details from who has more will to fund things and who doesn't (There is noticeably more LRT in Cobb/Cherokee than in Gwinnett, a larger county). There is also less commuter rail in Cobb. However, that is our busiest freight corridor and there is a huge railroad junction that needs to be overhauled. It would be much more costly to built commuter rail in Cobb vs. Gwinnett, because of the level of freight traffic.

I've grown to respect the Concept 3 more over time, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to change or will completely happen. It's just a road map to change.

[cybele]

Cybele, I'm not sure you even read any of the things you post.

Well, I don't know how in tarnation a man is supposed to know everything these days, there is only so many times in the day.

[delarosa]

There are also dense residential areas near Piedmont and Juniper that would take advantage of the MARTA connection and easier access to retail stores along Ponce. There is also ample room for more of this type of development in the area as well. It has both the density and the ability to grow.

I think this is absolutely the case. Not only would there be increased use from the various neighborhoods in the east (Fourth Ward, Poncey Highland, Va Highlands and even depending on the terminus, Druid Hills, etc.) towards town, whether it be due to aesthetics or timing (in the case of hypothetical dedicated lanes) or in order to terminate near North Ave or simply use it as a connecting point to the rest of the network, but it'd be very convenient for various types of users traveling to destinations like Whole Foods, the future City Hall development, shopping in Highlands, Plaza movies, L5P, the Olmsted linear park from both directions. This is to say nothing of the interchange with the (perhaps distant) future Beltline node @ City Hall or even longer term options like using Boulevard to tie the Ponce line with MLK. For that matter, it's a shame Monroe(Boulevard) becomes so narrow because would only be a bit further to tie MLK to Piedmont Park, though in theory the same could be probably done extending a streetcar down Edgewood to wherever the north of Dekalb Ave portion of the Beltline starts.

I think the other point worth noting is that, besides what would likely be the noted welcomed property value increase for those already in condos, perhaps the bigger impact is in development of strategically located swaths of currently vacant or low density. Yes, this would increase tax revenue and cyclically more riders for the system, but IMO it would be a final nail in the coffin of the rampant crime (drugs and prostitution) between say Krispy Kreme as far as Freedom Pkwy or so. In particular, the stretch on both sides of Boulevard would see drastic changes.

[Pessimistic Observer]

be there for the inaugural ride lol
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/bus-rapid-transit-debuts-743854.html
oh wait i forgot everyone hates busses

[cwkimbro]

be there for the inaugural ride lol
http://www.ajc.com/news/dekalb/bus-rapid-transit-debuts-743854.html
oh wait i forgot everyone hates busses

Ahh! Thanks for this. I thought it had it started a couple of weeks ago!

I hope this does well/works effectively. Even though I want to see some major rail expansions, this technology will be very important going into the future given our low-density build.

I also wish Gwinnett County would chip in to see this extended to Park Place as this could be done with little or no capital investment and could link people to commonly used shopping areas for people people in the Stone Mountain area and actually introduce a few Gwinnett Commuters to MARTA. (hopefully giving it a more positive light)

[BlindFatSnake]

I agree , but I think you are being a little hard on concept 3. While alot of those are just lines on map... many of those have been considered in planning by different agencies.

What I like about Concept 3 is it brings most of them together, so when MARTA plans one project and GRTA plans another one and Cobb County considers LRT they can leave future options for bringing things together better.

Example... The city of Atlanta is using streetcar tracks than LRT trains will be able to run on, which could connect to the beltline and/or a Cobb LRT line.

The Cobb LRT might meet with the Beltline and could feasibly travel on to Emory is they use LRT for that alignment.

I've grown to respect the Concept 3 more over time, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to change or will completely happen. It's just a road map to change.

I agree that Concept 3 is a work-in-progress, but I am continually dismayed by the fact that other states, regions, and cities are getting federal funding for their projects because they have moved from the concept stage of planning to the concrete stage of implementation.

NC, as well as other states, may get additional funding for HSR due to newly elected Republican governors in Ohio and Wisconsin halting HSR plans in those states... It's really silly that those governors believe they can redirect the funds to other state projects... That would be like applying for a home improvement loan and buying a car instead, which IMHO amounts to fraud.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/17/1844835/federal-money-shift-could-bring.html

[testarossa50]

No that's your own personal hyperbole.

Aesthetically, to "talent" there is no reason a person would not move to Atlanta because they have 60 miles of light rail transit and 48 miles of heavy rail instead of 58 miles of heavy rail.

Think about that. Which is more attractive to someone who cares about the quality of transit? 108 miles of rail mass transit or 58 miles of it?

Which is functionally better for the city and the commuters?

And then commuter rail... which according to these guys: Brain train (http://www.garprail.org/documents/braintrainresponses.pdf) costs $5.32 million per mile. So then we can have 37 miles of commuter rail for every mile of heavy rail. We really have to ask ourselves if a single MARTA heavy rail stop in Roswell is worth 200 miles of commuter rail.

Buses are not trains, but commuter rail and light rail together accomplish exactly the same thing as heavy rail but at a tiny fraction of the cost.

I don't understand your argument. If you can please explain why heavy rail is better than light rail and therefore worth six times as much.

These numbers are completely wrong. A modern cost of light rail on existing freight infrastructure is closer to $20MM/mile--that's what Florida is paying for SunRail under nearly the exact same circumstances. (Except the rail line Florida is far less important to CSX's network than the one to Athens, which is the mainline to NYC. Right-of-way acquisition is going to be vastly more expensive.)

Also, your comparison is far from apples-to-apples. The main reason heavy rail estimates are so high is because they are going on very specific routes that require overpasses, tunnels, and so forth. If you had light rail follow these alignments, it would cost vastly, vastly more. Conversely, if you bought up a mainline and replaced it with heavy rail, all of this would be relatively easy.

For another example, Portland has 50-odd miles of light rail at a soaking-wet cost of $3 billion. $60 million a mile. That's because it "acts" like a heavy rail system, with overpasses, underpasses, dedicated right of way, and so forth.

Next time you're on MARTA, look at the tracks between the East Point and College Park stations. They really aren't that sophisticated--it's just regular ribbon rail laid on concrete ties and normal ballast, with a third rail on the side, and chain link fences protecting the area. The electrification component is costly, but saves tons of money on operation.

These cheap commuter rail lines that work on existing freight lines only have a handful of services a day. They are worth investigating, but they aren't the slam-dunk they may seem.

I would like to see light rail built to complement our existing transit system--for instance, the Lovejoy line could just save the final haul into downtown and usher riders onto MARTA at the East Point station for the last leg (presumably most riders will have to hop aboard MARTA no matter where the train ends up anyhow). But everyone seems all excited about a train station downtown for some reason (I'm sure I'll be raked over the coals in a moment for questioning the multimodal terminal).

[BlindFatSnake]

These numbers are completely wrong. A modern cost of light rail on existing freight infrastructure is closer to $20MM/mile--that's what Florida is paying for SunRail under nearly the exact same circumstances. (Except the rail line Florida is far less important to CSX's network than the one to Athens, which is the mainline to NYC. Right-of-way acquisition is going to be vastly more expensive.)

But everyone seems all excited about a train station downtown for some reason (I'm sure I'll be raked over the coals in a moment for questioning the multimodal terminal).

I agree, the multi-modal terminal is outdated and should NOT be built as currently (or previously) designed as a convergence of multiple transit options. IMHO, I would like to see light rail connections to MARTA heavy rail stations wherever feasible with the mandate that other regional bus systems cannot enter MARTA territory. What's good for the goose is good for the gander...The Athens commuter train can end at the Doraville "multi-modal station" and NOT have to travel to downtown Atlanta.

And, the Lovejoy commuter train to downtown could/should end at East Point and the mode of transport should be light rail... I'm just saying...

[jew4life4948]

"The city of Charlotte also plans to start construction on a 1.4-mile segment of a streetcar line from Time Warner Cable Arena to Presbyterian Hospital. The city won a $25 million federal grant earlier this month to help pay for the $37 million project.

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/17/1845034/tax-revenue-dropoff-leaves-hole.html#ixzz15lBpIrJx "

Weird coincidence.

[cybele]

Well, it looks like they are building a thing down in Buckhead to hook up 400 to the MARTA.

http://buckheadcid.com/marta_concourse_bridge

[ATLaffinity]

Maybe this Bus Rapid Transit (http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-replaces-costly-highspeed-rail-plan-with-hig,18473/) is the way to go.

[echinatl]

Maybe this Bus Rapid Transit (http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-replaces-costly-highspeed-rail-plan-with-hig,18473/) is the way to go.

40 dollars for the upgrade is a good deal, but I am still behind high speed Rickshaws.

[rythym]

Maybe I don't fully understand, but that just looks frightening. Buses use all lanes. So the buses will be passing on the shoulder, or the right at well over 100mph? Exit ramps may get a little dicey.

[Pessimistic Observer]

Maybe I don't fully understand, but that just looks frightening. Buses use all lanes. So the buses will be passing on the shoulder, or the right at well over 100mph? Exit ramps may get a little dicey.

just in case you guys missed it
the onion is a parody online news network
like april fools day just 24/7 365
so dont take there stuff seriously its ment to humor

[BlindFatSnake]

Maybe this Bus Rapid Transit (http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-replaces-costly-highspeed-rail-plan-with-hig,18473/) is the way to go.

:haha: :haha: :haha:

That hybrid bus contraption with the nose of a HSR car was indeed FUGLY...