[miketoronto]

Toronto's eastern outter suburbs are getting expanded transit service starting in December, from Durham Region Transit. Instead of having to use Dial-A-Ride bus service in the evening hours Mon-Sat and on Sunday's. Riders will now be able to use a fixed route system.

For anyone who does not know, Durham Region Transit is famous for their loop bus routes that take you across town one way, just to go five blocks the other way from where you started your trip.

So you say, they are starting a new night and Sunday bus service. Maybe they will make a more simple route system. NOPE.
Instead the new combined night and Sunday service is again LOOPS.

I would like to know how the transit planners for Durham Region Transit can actually sit there and say their routes attract ridership beyond people who have no choice to use it?

Look at one of the new routes. Its so stupid that they continue to do this.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/miketorontoscar/nightroute.JPG

[Derek]

i dont get it? i guess its a toronto thing?

[fever]

I like how it goes out of its way to stop in front of the nuclear power plant

[Alargule]

This is even beyond my comprehension...And I always thought the Amsterdam night bus routes were complicated:

http://www.gvb.nl/reizigers/plattegronden/visuals/nachtlijnenkaartmei06web.gif

Sorry for the oversized pic.

[miketoronto]

I made a complaint to Durham Region Transit. I love the ladies response. Its a new route, so they will test it for six months and then see if it works.

She said grid routes are in the works. So if its in the works, why make a loop for a new service. Oh my gosh, Durham Region has always been weird.

[zaphod]

That sort of looks like the route a school bus might take


Are they picking up passengers at their fronts doors or something..lmao

[brickell]

So let me get this straight. . .
Squires are real?

[glowrock]

Funny, that map shows the exact area my bubby and zaidy used to live while in Oshawa! :)

(For those not in the know, bubby and zaidy are hebrew for grandma and grandpa. ;))

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Sulley]

Stupid Canada.

[DrJoe]

Funny, that map shows the exact area my bubby and zaidy used to live while in Oshawa! :)

(For those not in the know, bubby and zaidy are hebrew for grandma and grandpa. ;))

Aaron (Glowrock)

Oshawa isn't even on that map.

[bcp]

awful routing...it would be hell to be on that bus for very long.
why do they do this?? a mystery it seems...but probably designed to please little old ladies.
it's the same here in denver...but as we add LRT lines, the bus lines are straightening out along major roads and acting as feeders.
look at Chicago for an amazing bus system that works well with it's train system.

[glowrock]

Oshawa isn't even on that map.

Hmm, I could have sworn Rossland and Brock were both in Oshawa... Maybe there are same-named streets nearby? (my grandparents lived off of Rossland)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[miketoronto]

Hmm, I could have sworn Rossland and Brock were both in Oshawa... Maybe there are same-named streets nearby? (my grandparents lived off of Rossland)

Aaron (Glowrock)

Glowrock, you got caught in the street system of Durham Region. Rossland Road runs throughout Durham Region, going east-west. Thats normal.

However there is also two Brocks in Durham. There is Brock ROAD which is in Pickering. Then there is Brock STREET in Whitby(next to Oshawa)

[Justin10000]

awful routing...it would be hell to be on that bus for very long.
why do they do this?? a mystery it seems...but probably designed to please little old ladies.
it's the same here in denver...but as we add LRT lines, the bus lines are straightening out along major roads and acting as feeders.
look at Chicago for an amazing bus system that works well with it's train system.


People seem to be making assumptions before they actually look at all the facts. Before these routes, It was a dial-a-bus service. I just finished reading how to use Dial-a-bus in Pickeing.

You have to call, and request a time within a 50 minute timeframe. So basically you'll be picked up in that time frame. YOu might get lucky, you mght not. WHo knows? But you still have to wait around. And you have to call in before 11:45 to get a ride before 1. It's pretty archaic to be honest.


This is an attempt to give people a little more flexibilty in their day, by knowing EXACTLY when the bus arrives. And you're right. It is most likely geared towards older people. But from what I can see. and what I have read of the current system, it IS an improvement over Dial-a-bus.

I won't deny that is not really the best solution. But it IS better than dial-a-bus. I have a feeling that you'll see more routes running later at night.

And come on! The longest trip is 45 minutes. It is not really that bad. Once again MikeToronto is being a whiner about speed.

Remember this. DRT has only been for 1 year. You expect amazing changes overnight?

[glowrock]

Glowrock, you got caught in the street system of Durham Region. Rossland Road runs throughout Durham Region, going east-west. Thats normal.

However there is also two Brocks in Durham. There is Brock ROAD which is in Pickering. Then there is Brock STREET in Whitby(next to Oshawa)

Okay, you got me! :D

Thanks for the explanation though, Mike!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[miketoronto]

Justin10000 yes I do expect more from DRT. York Regional Transit had much better service expansion and route redesigns in place then DRT has managed to put together.

Whitby Transit(Pre DRT) moved from a circular route system to a full grid system, and it is great.

There is no reason that new routes should be planned with this stupid looping system that takes you in one direction to go in the other.

[bcp]

justin if they are just starting NOW than it is even worse...they should know better than this. they'd have been much better off creating multiple straight routes.

it's cruel sounding ~ but i've always thought that dial-a-rides should be completed phased out in lieu of private cab service. there is only so much that public transit can do.

45 minutes? what's this distance (as the crow flies) from the OPG to Rosland Street? it's about 5 miles from what i can tell....so yes, speed most definitely counts.

[Justin10000]

*sigh*

Whitby, and York Region moved to a grid because the street layouts ALLOWED them too. York Region roads are built along old concession lines. For some reason, Pickering, and Ajax do not follow the same pattern.

Have you looked at a map of Pickering?

Once again, you are all making assumptions without doing a little research. A grid system is not always the best solution. And sadly, the way Pickering, and Ajax are designed, it is unlikely you will get a full grid system. In Whitby, it was possible. But look at this google map of Pickering, and Ajax:

Tell me:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/Justin10000_1999/Pickering_ajax.jpg

Looking at that map, how do you propose grid coverage? It's not possible. And it is not easy running buses on residential streets as people tend to complain.

And hell!! Mike only showed you ONE route!! ONE. There are 8 in total.

I'm sorry Mike, but I do not really trust your posts to actually tell the whole story. All you seem to do, is bitch and complain about the poor job transit agencies are doing without actually telling the whole story.

Like I said, go to the DRT website, and look at the system maps. There is actually some kind of grid route in place based on the main streets. But you'll noticed that the way this area is designed(super suburb *gag*), the grid system coverage is not that great. Mike also failed to mention that there is frequen GO transit service along Kingston Rd. in which Durham Transit users can ride for free.

This is my opinion. Yours may be different, but I urge you to look at the other routes for yourself, and THEN make an opinion. I have been to that region by bus many times, and I can tell you, it is not an eay area to run transit.

http://www.durhamregiontransit.com/durham/index_e.aspx?DetailID=345

[miketoronto]

Justin10000. In Pickering and Ajax there is not one route that runs fully on a straight line or grid pattern.

And its not because of the roads. There is a grid of main roads just like in Ajax.

Further, I myself who is into transit, into maps, etc, can hardly make out Pickering/Ajax route maps with all the circles and loops.

A route that takes you all the way west just to go back east is stupid and is not going to attract ridership.

I deal with riders all day at my job trying to get around Greater Toronto. And Durham Region poses the most problems. People do not like DRT routes as they do not work well with all the loops.

I did not have time to post all the new night routes. But some of the other ones area even worse when it comes to loops and taking you out of the way just to get somewhere that is 5min down the road.

[bcp]

i look at that map and see some very simple and easy to impliment routes....half the people will need to transfer once when they get to a main intersection and then possible walk to get to their final destination...MUCH better than having to ride the wild-ride of the current route on a slow-ass lurching bus.

[zilfondel]

Crack cocaine? Or speed?

Just puttin' in my 2 cents. :D

[miketoronto]

Then we wonder why transit use lags. Because do you think people with any bit of a choice area going to ride a route like that, for a tour of the entire town before it gets you where you need to go?

[J. Will]

Hell, I know a metro of more than 3 million people out West where most (almost all) of the bus routes make silly turns down multiple streets instead of just going straight north/south or east/west. Instead of getting on a northbound bus and assuming it will continue north along that same street, you have to know where it will turn because the routes don't just go in a straight line. And this is a "city", not a suburb.

This is not at all uncommon.

[miketoronto]

Hell, I know a metro of more than 3 million people out West where most (almost all) of the bus routes make silly turns down multiple streets instead of just going straight north/south or east/west. Instead of getting on a northbound bus and assuming it will continue north along that same street, you have to know where it will turn because the routes don't just go in a straight line. And this is a "city", not a suburb.

This is not at all uncommon.

Thats different because the buses go in both directions. Thats not the case in Durham Region where the bus goes in cone large loop. That is not good, and other transit systems that have loops like this, are phasing them out, and DRT is making more. Makes no sense.

I think you have to remember the DRT routes are not bi-directional. They only go in one way loops.

Its the perfect route system if all you want to attract are the poor and carless. But it will do nothing for choice ridership, or to keep those teens from getting a car when they turn 16.

[bcp]

uncommon doesn't make it right...mike is spot on that it greatly reduces ridership of the non-poor. chicago was amazing in this way...you hop on the bus and know EXACTLY where it is going without having to think and study a bizarre route map. swipe your card, hop off at the El station, swipe the same card for a transfer and you're on your way.

[J. Will]

"chicago was amazing in this way...you hop on the bus and know EXACTLY where it is going without having to think and study a bizarre route map."

Cities should be that way. Toronto's routes are like that too, at least the main ones. In the suburbs though, there is often much larger distances between arterial roads, so if routes just followed the grid, that could leave a 15-minute walk to some destinations (or even more).

[Xelebes]

In Edmonton there are a few routes that are like that. For example, the 129 (WEM>All-Weather Windows>Westmount) does some unnecessary looping. It would be best served by another bus-route that weaves it. It probably needs to be done anyways as there is only standing room once you leave the transit centre on the first bus in the morning.

[miketoronto]

[QUOTE=JToronto's routes are like that too, at least the main ones. In the suburbs though, there is often much larger distances between arterial roads, so if routes just followed the grid, that could leave a 15-minute walk to some destinations (or even more).[/QUOTE]

The suburb excuse does not wash. Even in the suburbs the Toronto Transit Commission runs a grid system.
Even Toronto's outter suburbs all provide grid route systems, except for, yes you guessed it DURHAM REGION TRANSIT.

Durham Region has the exact same road pattern as the rest of the suburbs. So why can't they run a grid.

This circular route system is just because the planners are to lazy to try anything different.

Its stupid. You have the east end of the region on a grid(Whitby and Oshawa). And the west end of the region with these stupid circular routes. And Clarington with the circurlar routes also.

[DrJoe]

Thats different because the buses go in both directions. Thats not the case in Durham Region where the bus goes in cone large loop. That is not good, and other transit systems that have loops like this, are phasing them out, and DRT is making more. Makes no sense.

I think you have to remember the DRT routes are not bi-directional. They only go in one way loops.

Its the perfect route system if all you want to attract are the poor and carless. But it will do nothing for choice ridership, or to keep those teens from getting a car when they turn 16.

They seriously only have one-way loops? Even friggin Cobourg has implemented bi-directional loops.

[tunnelbana]

I would like to know how the transit planners for Durham Region Transit can actually sit there and say their routes attract ridership beyond people who have no choice to use it?

Do they say that?

In all likelihood they don't really consider trying to lure non-captive riders, because as you have all pointed out this attempt would be asinine. It looks like they are trying to get as much of the city as possible within a short distance of a bus stop.

Do you know what the headway is on this service? How many vehicles will be dedicated to this route? My guess is that they'll probably have one bus that come by every hour or something. Without more vehicles a more logical multi-route network can't actually be implemented.

I agree this is not going to attract anyone who doesn't have to use transit, but if the target demographic is little old ladies with walkers, minimizing walking distance may be valued more than time savings. However, this shouldn't be used to justify such shoddy investment in public transit planning and service.

[miketoronto]

This service runs once an hour, usually with one bus per route.

This service is not for little old ladies. Its basically designed to get people from the GO TRAIN station to their homes. So its basically you could say for people coming back from Toronto at night, who need to get from the train station to their homes. Some people who may have been out partying downtown and a little drunk, night not mind the ride around town to get home.

But other then that, it does nothing for local transit use or anything.

[nname]

In Edmonton there are a few routes that are like that. For example, the 129 (WEM>All-Weather Windows>Westmount) does some unnecessary looping. It would be best served by another bus-route that weaves it. It probably needs to be done anyways as there is only standing room once you leave the transit centre on the first bus in the morning.

Edmonton's route 305 is the worst one I've found so far...
It not only loop, but loop in a different way for each direction
I wonder if a driver will ever got lost when driving this

http://www.edmonton.ca/transit/route_schedules_and_maps/current/RT305.pdf