[pkp]

Does anyone have info on smaller cities that have some sort of rail transit (streetcars, etc...)? I would like to start some discussions with officials here in Mobile (city 200,000, metro 550,000) about reinstating streetcar service.

[Alargule]

In Europe, a city of comparable size even has a real metro line: Rennes (http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/ren/rennes.htm). But such lines are only viable if there's a large amount of traffic (car, bus) traveling via a small, (nearly) congested corridor. If Mobile has no considerable traffic problems, I think you're going to have a very hard time convincing those town officials that a tram/light rail line would be necessary (for others reasons than 'streetcars look better than bus/they're less polluting/it will attract a lot of rail fans).

[pkp]

In Europe, a city of comparable size even has a real metro line: Rennes (http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/ren/rennes.htm). But such lines are only viable if there's a large amount of traffic (car, bus) traveling via a small, (nearly) congested corridor. If Mobile has no considerable traffic problems, I think you're going to have a very hard time convincing those town officials that a tram/light rail line would be necessary (for others reasons than 'streetcars look better than bus/they're less polluting/it will attract a lot of rail fans).

By American standards, Mobile is a pretty old city. So, it has a fairly dense core, with a large part of the population living within appx 5 blocks of three major thoroughfares that used to have streetcar service.

The traffic can be bad during rush hour, but I know where you are coming from.

A positive I have seen is serious discussions on implementing ferry service to connect suburban areas on the other side of the bay. Without proper infastructure, that transit will be useless. So maybe there is some hope.

[The Chemist]

Calgary and Edmonton both got LRT service when they were small cities - around 550,000 people in the metro area.

[WonderlandPark]

Kenosha, Wisconsin is the smallest city in the US that has regular scheduled streetcar rail service. 2 miles, 17 stations. Population is 90,000.

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/Kenosha_83_sm.JPG

[Minato Ku]

A second subway line is in project in Rennes.:)

Nantes France 550,000 inh in the urban area
has a LRT (39 Km and 81 stations 214,000 journey per day)

Strasbourg France 450,000 inh in urban area
Has a LRT (25 Km 41 station 208,000 journey per day)

[Jasper and one o nin]

[QUOTE=WonderlandPark]Kenosha, Wisconsin is the smallest city in the US that has regular scheduled streetcar rail service. 2 miles, 17 stations. Population is 90,000.
wouldn't it be better to walk?

[mahanakorn]

Little Rock (a new part of PKP's territory, he posted on another thread) has a small (2.5 mile) system of antique trolleys (www.cat.org/rrail). Looks like more of a tourist loop than real transit, but might be a start.

This article (http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_lr_001.htm) has some info on funding sources etc.

Best of luck!

[Cirrus]

wouldn't it be better to walk?
Americans are in the habit of never walking if they can ride.

Anyway, Kenosha is the prime example right now, but lots and lots of small cities are considering rail. Some, like Tacoma, WA (where it is already operating) and Boulder, CO are in larger metro areas. But some, like Charlottesville (http://www.transportationchoice.org/westmainstreetcar.html) (metro pop: 185,500) are pretty independent.

[pkp]

That Little Rock article is great. I can't believe they put it in for so little $!

[WonderlandPark]

Charlottesville? Cool, do it.

[Steely Dan]

it should also be mentioned that kenosha's streetcar loop feeds into the city's Metra station (commuter rail) and the Metra line runs all the way south to downtown chicago with many, many points in between. and if they can find the funding, commuter rail will also extend northward to milwaukee someday (already in the planning stages). so the streetcar system does serve a modest purpose as a feeder for commuter rail, rather than exclusively being a relatively pointless historic tourist trolley that goes in a circle around downtown.

the system was also built with future expansion in mind, so the relatively small 2 mile loop of today may be expanded upon in the future. as always, you gotta start somewhere, even if it's small.

[JiminyCricket II]

Tacoma has LRT with a little over 200,000. But the metro is around 4 million.

[BTinSF]

Tucson, Arizona has a rudimentary streetcar line, "The Old Pueblo Trolley":

http://www.oldpueblotrolley.org/routemapb.gif

As shown, the line leaves the U. of Arizona main gate and travels to 4th Ave and then south along 4th Ave a ways. 4th Ave. is Tucson's "Bohemian" strip meaning quite a few bars, one or two of them gay, a number of restaurants, the best BBQ joint in town (IMHO), some used clothing stores, coffee shops and so on.

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/Tucson_869_c.jpg

The line on 4th Ave.
http://www.heritagetrolley.org/IMAGES/Tucson05.jpg

The line on University
http://www.heritagetrolley.org/IMAGES/Tucson02.jpg

A ballot proposition last spring passed a good-sized transportation plan and bond funding which will extend the system:

In the next few years, Tucson expects to build a modern streetcar line that will extend 3.6 miles from the vicinity of University Medical Center to the cultural/museum district now under construction on West Congress Street. The project is estimated to cost $80 million.

Source: http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/155412

[Cirrus]

Isn't the Tuscon line just a tourist thing? Lots of cities have those.

I could be mistaken about it.

[Markitect]

it should also be mentioned that kenosha's streetcar loop feeds into the city's Metra station (commuter rail) and the Metra line runs all the way south to downtown chicago with many, many points in between. and if they can find the funding, commuter rail will also extend northward to milwaukee someday (already in the planning stages). so the streetcar system does serve a modest purpose as a feeder for commuter rail, rather than exclusively being a relatively pointless historic tourist trolley that goes in a circle around downtown.

the system was also built with future expansion in mind, so the relatively small 2 mile loop of today may be expanded upon in the future. as always, you gotta start somewhere, even if it's small.

It should also be noted that the Kenosha streetcar loop was built as a catalyst for redeveloping a large brownfield on the city's lakefront. Not only does the line pass through long-established downtown business blocks (at the west end of the loop, near the commuter train station), but it also passes through several blocks worth of brand new residential and retail development (in the middle-section of the loop), and new civic developments as well (at the east end of the loop--marinas, parks, and a pair of museums). And more development along the loop is on the way.

Also, Kenosha is in the midst of planning a streetcar extension...adding a new branch that would pass through other nearby neighborhoods, again to serve as a catalyst for development in those parts of town.

[WonderlandPark]

Tucson, I think, is a tourist train. That is why I was careful to say regular, scheduled rail transit in the Kenosha post. Seattle has a tourist line, as do other cities. I think the definition is to provide mass transit to the commuting public on a regular schedule at commuting hours, not "joy" rides, even though a small number of commuters may use a tourist-oriented line.

[Cirrus]

There are definitely much smaller cities w/ tourist trolleys. Fort Collins comes to mind.

[Diddle E Squat]

Is 112,000 small?

Though for civic pride you might want a different livery.

http://hanshin-now.com/upload/blog/post/ikoma_cable1.jpg

http://drkssk2.fc2web.com/ikoma/ikoma1/cable07.jpg

Check out the switch:

http://mk23.image.pbase.com/u40/dickh/upload/32494617.I07.JPG

[WonderlandPark]

^^^Where is the Hello Kitty train? :haha:

[Marcu]

Buses are a lot more practical for smaller cities since road congestion isn't as much of a problem and rail transit usually costs a lot more money.

Some of the best bus service in the country is in midwestern college towns (which by no coincidence happen to be some of the best and most recognized college towns in the country). Good examples are Madison (WI), Champaign-Urbana (IL), and Ann Arbor (MI).

[staff]

Most cities (big or small) in Europe have some form of rail transit.

Some examples of smaller cities:

Lausanne (250.000) has a metro system in operation:
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/lau/lausanne-map.gif


Rennes (215.000 inh) has a metro line.
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/ren/rennes-map.gif


Brescia (~200.000 inh) will open a metro in 2009:
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/bre/brescia-map.gif


Nottingham.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/BenL26/Council-House-and-tram.jpg


Sheffield.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/BenL26/SYS106.jpg


San Sebastian.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/sky_xabi/et_lugaritz_2.jpg


Nantes.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Tramway_Nantes_new_model_moutonnerie_station.jpg/800px-Tramway_Nantes_new_model_moutonnerie_station.jpg


Strasbourg.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Tramway_Strasbourg_FRA_001.jpg/800px-Tramway_Strasbourg_FRA_001.jpg


Valenciennes.
http://tramateurs.free.fr/tram_valenciennes/galerie/Images/valenciennes_tram_28_04_2006_essais_51.jpg


Potsdam.
http://www.tram.cx/tram/germany/potsdam/07011225_09A.jpg


Hannover.
http://www.blickpunktstrab.net/photos2004-hannover-2000er-btfdoehren.jpg


Bochum.
http://ruhr-bus.de/sparkassebog1.JPG


Karlsruhe.
http://hg2ecz.ham.hu/kirandulas/Karlsruhe-kozlekedes/strassenbahn_felul.jpg


Erfurt.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/73256.jpg


Chemnitz.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/31532.jpg


Ulm.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/42096.jpg


Kassel.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/70279.jpg


Schwerin.
http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/69305.jpg


Mulhouse.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/TramwayMulhouse1.jpg/800px-TramwayMulhouse1.jpg


S:t Etienne.
http://tramateurs.free.fr/tram_saint-etienne/galerie_photos/Images/saintetienne2_tram005.jpg


Grenoble.
http://tramateurs.free.fr/tram_grenoble/galerie/Images/cit_006.jpg


Rouen.
http://tramateurs.free.fr/tram_rouen/tram_rouen-Images/8.jpg


Montpellier.
http://tramateurs.free.fr/tram_montpellier/galerie/Images/montpellier_007.jpg


Orleans.
http://tramateurs.free.fr/tram_orleans/galerie/Images/tramchateau2.jpg


Nancy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Stan-Bus-Bahn-Nancy.jpg/731px-Stan-Bus-Bahn-Nancy.jpg


Caen.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Tramway_de_Caen.jpg


Clermont Ferrand.
http://www.metro-pole.net/actu/IMG/jpg/Img_8893_p1200.jpg


Padova.
http://foto.webalice.it/img_sito_/preview_fa1/ro/ob/robertoamori//medium_d401294ec77c2dd548f440b701ffe768.jpg


And so on...


Now I'm just waiting for Malmö to get a metro-tram system...

[BTinSF]

Isn't the Tuscon line just a tourist thing? Lots of cities have those.

I could be mistaken about it.

Some tourists ride it but it's also a reasonable way to get from the University to a 4th Ave. bar or restaurant. Note the schedule I posted along with the pics. The hours tell the story--it's meant to get students to their favorite haunts on weekends. But the 3.6 mile addition now funded will definitely not be just for tourists or students. It's intended as the start of a serious system and will use modern cars as I understand it. That's why I mentioned it too--to make it clear that Tucson has made a commitment to serious light rail. Lots of smaller cities in the US have not done that WonderlandPark.

[Diddle E Squat]

^^^Where is the Hello Kitty train? :haha:

Ikoma, Japan.

[Bruin Brain]

Someone had to do it.





















http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1838/everytimekx6.jpg

[tecmsu06]

doesn't morgantown, WV have some kind of LRT or streetcar line??

[pkp]

Its refreshing to see all of these smaller cities with decent rail transit. In Mobile's case, I actually think an overwhelming majority of the ridership will come from residents with some tourists riding it. I would really like to see something similar to the Saint Charles line in New Orleans, but maybe not quite as long.

[Fusey]

Bruin, thanks for making me spit soda all over my laptop. :haha:

[J Church]

Getting back to the OP--there are lots of reasons to invest in transit beyond congestion. Streetcars are a relatively low-cost way to spur development, an important selling point for officials who might be wary.

http://www.portlandstreetcar.org/pdf/development.pdf

[Swede]

^So true. And even where the zoning allows no more development (and no re-zoning is done) the property values go up.

[Capt AWACS]

Galveston has regularly scheduled streetcar system, since 1988, population ~60,000 covering 8 miles. This means it is smallest with streetcar service not kenosha.

"With board fixed rail trolley cars built in a turn of the century style similar to those used in Galveston from the late 1800s to 1938, the trolley provides a unique mode of transportation from Galveston's Seawall to the Strand Landmark Historic District, Pier 21, and to The University of Texas Medical Branch. The ride offers beautiful historic homes and other points of interest along the route.

Passengers can catch the trolley every 20 minutes at any given stop. The trolleys run approximately every 40 minutes.

In 1988, the City revived the fixed rail Trolley, serving Seawall Boulevard, 25th Street, downtown and the historic Strand District. The trolley system was expanded in 1995 to include areas of the Galveston Wharf, and expanded again in 2004 to include service to UTMB.

Galveston Island Trolley service area covers over 8 miles. "

http://www.subways.net/usa/galveston/galv06.JPG

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Dutch girls are easy

[pkp]

That peice on Portland is great.

[wrendog]

SLC has plans for a couple streetcars lines to compliment it's Light Rail system as well...

[Markitect]

Galveston has regularly scheduled streetcar system, since 1988, population ~60,000 covering 8 miles. This means it is smallest with streetcar service not kenosha.


Perhaps it is a a streetcar, but techincally not a trolley since it runs on an internal diesel-electric motor as opposed to drawing power from an external electrical system.

Galveston seems to be using the incorrect, bastardized definition of a trolley. It looks like one aesthetically, but mechanically it doesn't operate like one (not unlike those silly rubber-tired mini-buses that are also being passed of as trolleys).

[WonderlandPark]

Somewhere there has to be a split between the commuter-oriented rail system with the tourist-oriented ones. Kenosha-17 stops in 2 miles? Galveston, 40 minute wait between trains (20 minutes per stop, probably counting a train in either direction from the sound of it)?

What is the line between a tourist train and a "true" commuter-oriented system?
SF's cable cars are historic, run frequently but carry mostly tourists
SF's market street cars are historic, and carry mostly commuters
Seattle's little system gears its running times to tourist times, but is on rails and historic-looking
Portland's streetcar has a lot of stops, is modern and carries mostly commuters
San Pedro has a short little section of track in which historic Red Cars run, but carries almost no commuters
I guess Jacksonville and Detroit's people mover systems are on rails.

The question is clear, just that the line is blurry when it comes to what defines a "transit" verses a "tourist" system.

[Capt AWACS]

Perhaps it is a a streetcar, but techincally not a trolley since it runs on an internal diesel-electric motor as opposed to drawing power from an external electrical system.

Galveston seems to be using the incorrect, bastardized definition of a trolley. It looks like one aesthetically, but mechanically it doesn't operate like one (not unlike those silly rubber-tired mini-buses that are also being passed of as trolleys).

It runs on tracks not like a bus. It does carry a fair number of students and tourists though few locals commute on it. It is handy for travel from the beach hotels to the Strand district.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, NATO AWAX, The best shine for your jet

[alexjon]

Some tourists ride it but it's also a reasonable way to get from the University to a 4th Ave. bar or restaurant. Note the schedule I posted along with the pics. The hours tell the story--it's meant to get students to their favorite haunts on weekends. But the 3.6 mile addition now funded will definitely not be just for tourists or students. It's intended as the start of a serious system and will use modern cars as I understand it. That's why I mentioned it too--to make it clear that Tucson has made a commitment to serious light rail. Lots of smaller cities in the US have not done that WonderlandPark.

Tuscon is using the same basic set-up as Portland's streetcar; same or similar cars, same general stop set-up.

[Markitect]

It runs on tracks not like a bus.

That is clear from the picture you posted. Nevertheless, the fact that it runs on tracks is besides my point.

So yeah, there's no reason it cannot be considered rail transit, since it runs on rails and carries people from place to place... but it's still not actually a trolley.

[zilfondel]

Tuscon is using the same basic set-up as Portland's streetcar; same or similar cars, same general stop set-up.

It should; it was modeled after Portland. The main light rail advocate for Tucson, Steve Farley, visited Portland several years ago and took pictures all over the place.

Tucsons' existing line is very interesting, however, as it was built purely out of volunteer labor and is operating purely with volunteers. I rode on it several years ago, before I moved to Portland, and made me love the train. Anyways, quite a hobby, eh?

[Capt AWACS]

That is clear from the picture you posted. Nevertheless, the fact that it runs on tracks is besides my point.

So yeah, there's no reason it cannot be considered rail transit, since it runs on rails and carries people from place to place... but it's still not actually a trolley.

I don't care about the centre trolley pole. Just if is used as a form of transit or not re: this thread. And the fact is the locals call it a trolley so I'll post it as a trolley. Locals here in Limburg call some of the trains trams. It is semantics to a degree as the manufacturer calls them "board fixed rail trolley cars".

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Seven continents down, none to go

[Markitect]

I don't care about the centre trolley pole. Just if is used as a form of transit or not re: this thread. And the fact is the locals call it a trolley so I'll post it as a trolley.

Yes, I understood all of that from the beginning. I'm just making an observation.

[jerremyl]

Here are a couple pictures from the Tacoma Link line. It is a short line only 1.6 miles long in the downtown core. But it was built to eventually connect to the Main Central Link line under construction in Seattle now. There are also plans to expand the system in Tacoma before the main Central line is extended to Tacoma (which is 35 miles south of Seattle).

just click on the thumbs for a larger image

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/jerremyl/th_TacomaLinkLightRailJan.jpg (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/jerremyl/TacomaLinkLightRailJan.jpg)


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/jerremyl/th_TacomaLinkLightRailJan-1.jpg (http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e364/jerremyl/TacomaLinkLightRailJan-1.jpg)

[Wheelingman04]

doesn't morgantown, WV have some kind of LRT or streetcar line??

It has personal rapid transit that is similar to a monorail. It connects the West Virginia University campuses together.

[Marre]

Newcastle-upon-Tyne/Tyne & Wear

http://urbanrail.net/eu/new/newcastle-map.gif

Basically it was opened in 1980 (so it's older then me) and it's gradually been extended. The network mainly comprises old suburban heavy rail lines and four short stretches of new tunnels under Newcastle cross/Gateshead/Byker.

Serves an area of about 1.3 million.

Been further plans for expansion by using trams and new street running lines to reach places away form the core network. Much needed after the de-regulation of buses which means they now compete with rather then serve the metro system.

http://urbanrail.net/eu/new/TWMetro_newliv2.jpg
http://urbanrail.net/eu/new/monument1.jpg
http://urbanrail.net/eu/new/TWMetro_newliv1.jpg

[ajfroggie]

Getting back to the OP--there are lots of reasons to invest in transit beyond congestion. Streetcars are a relatively low-cost way to spur development, an important selling point for officials who might be wary.

However, if you follow that route, you start running into situations of public money supporting private development...something that *A LOT* of people are concerned with in this country in light of recent Supreme Court decisions.

And yes, I understand that roads are 'publicly funded' and used to spur economic development as well. For the record, I think 'economic development' is the *WORST* reason to support a new road or road improvement. It's not a valid reason IMO, and should extend to transit as well as roads.

[beesbees]

Sheffeild (Pop - 520,000) has a tram system named (rather oddly) Supertram (http://www.supertram.com/).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/SheffieldSupertramMap.svg/605px-SheffieldSupertramMap.svg.png

2004 style:

http://www.thetrams.co.uk/supertram/trams/101-4.jpg

2006 style:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e8/Supertram_2006_Livery_%282%29.jpg/800px-Supertram_2006_Livery_%282%29.jpg