[Psykomonkee]

Lets brainstorm...

Okay, we all know that ATLANTA is considered an International/World Class city, but is it really looked at as a world class city by people from around the nation and around the world?

I've done a lot of traveling, and what I've found is that (unfortunately), I'd have to admit that people from outside the region don't look at our city as a world class city. When you ask them "What do you think about when you think of ATLANTA?" Most don't know what to say. When asked the same question about other cities, it's easy... Las Vegas = Casinos, Vegas only shows, Sin City. New York = The big apple, Times Square, Shopping, Theater. Los Angeles = Hollywood, Beaches, shopping. New Orleans = The Big Easy, Mardi Gras, Cajun food...

People don't have a nick name for ATLANTA (besides the tired HOTLANTA), they don't know of ATLANTA cuisine. They simply can't think of any reason to visit besides that they've heard it was the place to be and housing is cheap. Most people don't really know what makes ATLANTA special...

ATLANTA is not among the top 10 most visited cities in the US.
The top 10 list: http://www.quia.com/rd/6927.html
Not even among the 20 most visited cities.
Can you believe that we hosted the Olympics and still are not on that list?
Even cities such as San Antonio, Phoenix, Memphis and Austin get more visitors a year.
Right now, people place ATLANTA in a list amongst cities like:
Nashville, Cleveland and Baltimore...
ATLANTA SHOULD be in a list with cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco and Miami...
I know we are home of the world's largest aquarium, the world's busiest airport, home of CNN, (among the worst traffic) and home of the 96 Olympics, but after all of that, the world doesn't seem to be too impressed... They love our relatively low cost housing market, but that's about it. So my question is what can ATLANTA do to bring itself up to that "world class" status? This means more than just transportation improvements. That's just going to make the quality of life in ATLANTA better, but it's not going to put (a vacation in) ATLANTA on the mind of a hard working man in Germany... (See my point?)
The goal is for ATLANTA to join the world's list with cities like Paris, New York and Tokyo.
What ELSE can be done?

What are some of your ideas and visions that ATLANTA can do to join the list of most desired travel locations.
(More visitors means more potential revenue. More potential revenue means more businesses. More business means more jobs. More jobs, higher average household income. Higher income, higher quality of life.)

So, what are your ideas?
Tourist destinations? Museum (what kind)? Amusement/Theme parks? Zoo? Neighborhood developments? Malls? Shopping districts? Golf/Spa Resort? Landmarks? Statues? Monuments? Improved transportation? Stadium? A certain type of convention? A festival or parade? Logo? New nick name? What are your ideas that you think ATLANTA can develope and call it's own?

[jcathens]

Atlanta isn't a place to visit, Atlanta is a place to live. I would never come here on vacation if I didn't live here. Why on Earth would I. Atlanta is what it is, and will never be anything else..it will only get bigger. Living here is great, which is why it has been #1 for in-migration from everywhere else around the country. I don't think we care whether we are known for anything, what really does it matter. Let New York be the "big apple", let Chicago be the windy city..etc. Atlanta is a great place for many reason. It has a great location, great year round weather with mild seasons, very affordable with great jobs to offer making it one of the most prosperous cities, 4-5 hours from beaches, an hour or two from the mountains, 2 hour plane ride from NYC, Dallas, Chicago, less than that to DC, Pittsburgh. Atlanta has things younger people care about...clubs, college football, great golf courses everywhere, I believe Atlanta has more colleges and students than most other major cities, hope scholarship. Sure every other city has this stuff, but I think its much higher in proportion to the younger population.
As far as world class? What does that even mean? To me the only thing difference between the "world class cities" and Atlanta is simply history. Atlanta doesn't have the architecture or really any significant history before the civil war. Thats pretty recent, when you consider places like NYC or even London. If things continue as so...it will be viewed differently in a 100+ years. As for now, who cares really. We just live here.

[AubieTurtle]

You realize that your spamming of the other threads to get people to this one is going to cause the mods to come down on you like a modernist building making way for condos, right?

[LSyd]

my idea is to not spam other threads like a twit.

-

[Stratosphere 2020]

When I think Atlanta, I think Coca Cola, CNN, HIP/HOP, Martin Luther and the Olympics. And I live in Europe.

The poor knowledge of Atlanta abroad is the fault of the ATL itself, it should market itself as a city destination abroad. Atlanta has many attractions for tourists. They include Stone Mountain, Six Flags, Martin Luther King Museum, World of Coke, CNN Center and the Aquarium.

I agree many people especially from abroad do not know about Atlanta. I must say that many R&B artists in clips in Europe do promote Atlanta.

An idea is to market the south entirely as a destination within a destination that is the U.S.. Why not create package tour deals and have tourists from abroad visit Atlanta for 3 days, Savannah for 2 days, Nashville for 2 days, Memphis for a day. Two fun filled weeks in the South, that is an attractive offer!

[DruidCity]

I know we are home of the world's largest aquarium

That's a great start. I know people who had not visited Atlanta in years who made the trip for that. I know of at least one local public school that scheduled a weekend field trip to Atlanta because of the aquarium.

More "primary" attractions of that caliber draw tourists in, and while in town they'll spend on the smaller attractions, hotels, restaurants, etc.

Stratosphere 2020, the local Sister Cities program has sponsored two-week "tour-of-the-south" type visits for international visitors, much as you described. They fly into and out of Atlanta, but also visit places like Orlando, New Orleans, Gulf Shores, and Birmingham/Tuscaloosa.

[dante2308]

Lets not be harsh. We should all be thinking of the future and there currently aren't enough people or any thread here at all talking about anything but buildings, streetscapes, and land acquisitions. I didn't see the spamming, but I'm guessing he only did it to stir up a good conversation.

In my opinion, we don't need to be a tourist trap like Orlando or a two-sided city like Miami or a warm beach like Honolulu. We don't need to make that list either. We just need to work towards things that make Atlanta a great place to live, not just to look at.

Atlanta has very high in-migration which means that people who come here are impressed. They visit and then the next time they visit, they are looking for a home. I know my family did that. That, I think, is the greatest compliment for a city.

We will work at our own pace. Eventually we'll have the Symphony Hall. Soon, Atlantic Station will be complete. We don't need a new theme park or some huge monument. We have theme parks, and the modern version of a monument, the skyscraper, is here in spades.

Chicago and New York are huge metropolises that draw people in with their sheer magnitude and rich history. We can't match that. We aren't that big and we can't fabricate history. We have our own, yes, but if it doesn't draw, then so be it.

Atlanta is a gamma world city, don't be fooled. It ranks high among world cities. Just give it time.

BTW, Germany is a country. If the United States was anywhere near as interesting as Europe, then Europeans would flock here to visit. Interestingly, though, they do. Anyway, Atlanta isn't the biggest or the oldest or even very historically significant. How many other of the ninth-largest cities in any other country are as internationally known and renowned?

Do you dream of visiting Bremen, Germany or Chonging, China? Have you even heard of Wollongong, Australia? Well they've heard of Atlanta.

[keelanfish]

Atlanta is missing three major things that I think prevent it from moving up to the list of great cities.

1. Geography - most cities that I think of being great are located on water. London, Paris, Sidney, New York, Chicago, Miami, San Francisco, etc... This is not something Atlanta can change, but it is going to have to figure out how to be a great city without an iconic view. In addition to being aesthetically pleasing, the waterways are essentially barriers that help shape most great cities. These natural barriers have helped most of the great cities of the world today achieve the level of density required to have a healthy city and force cities to grow up rather than sprawling outward. I propose that Atlanta use the beltline project as a man-made barrier to encourage higher levels of density within its center and prevent sprawl.

2. Transportation - Atlanta is a new city and has been built around the use of the automobile. To truely become a great city, Atlanta will have to come up with a public transportation system that efficiently, quickly and affordably moves the public to and from their destinations. So far, Atlanta has been unwilling to invest the capital required to do this in a timely manner.

3. Cultural Institutions - Atlanta does not support its cultural institutions. The zoo, High, Symphony, Botanical Garden, History Center, Parks, etc. are not supported by the city or its residents to an extent that would be required to make Atlanta a great city. Support of these institutions, parks, greenspace, etc. by the city and its residents would go a long ways to help transform Atlanta into a great city.

[bobdreamz]

Psykomonkee Atlanta simply isn't a tourist destination. The city really doesn't have much to offer in comparison to the Orlandos & Vegases or places like Miami, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco or New Orleans.
The 96 Olympics happened 10 years ago...it served it's purpose for the time but that isn't a major reason to visit....neither is CNN or the World of Coke.
People don't fly half across the world for those attractions you listed.
Atlanta is a business city and that is how many people view it. I really don't think much can be done to make it a tourist hotspot.

[AubieTurtle]

Atlanta is trying to focus on tourism as a reason to extend a visit that was made to the city for non-tourism reasons instead of trying to be a primary tourist destination. Plenty of people come to Atlanta for business, visit family, etc. Getting them to stay an extra day or two while they are already here is a good strategy.

[atlantaguy]

Exactly - We aren't a tourist city, but we are a top 5 convention city - and have over 90,000 hotel rooms in the metro.

On any given day, there are over 65,000 out of towners in ATL.

[DruidCity]

Plenty of people come to Atlanta for business, visit family, etc. Getting them to stay an extra day or two while they are already here is a good strategy.


I agree. The airport especially brings a lot of people through Atlanta.

[micropundit]

The strategy is to build up regional toursm-southeastern ,within a 300 +
mile radius -until the local colleges and universities can be strengthened enough to create new industries like Bostom/Harvard and Silicon Valley/Stanford. The latter point being the major reason that there will be commuter rail in Metro Atlanta and North Georgia: The connection of colleges and universities from Athens to Macon thru Atlanta.

[AubieTurtle]

The latter point being the major reason that there will be commuter rail in Metro Atlanta and North Georgia: The connection of collages and universities from Athens to Macon thru Atlanta.

Come on, we all know the ***REAL*** reason for having the brain train is so Georgia fans can start drinking on their way up to Athens for game day and to be able to drink even more on the way home. :jester:

[micropundit]

^ And that too.

[Andrea]

I have a friend who came here all the way from Australia and one of the first things she wanted to see was Stone Mountain. We also went to the Elvis Shrine at the Star Bar.

[CityFan]

The 96 Olympics happened 10 years ago...it served it's purpose for the time but that isn't a major reason to visit....neither is CNN or the World of Coke.
People don't fly half across the world for those attractions you listed.
Atlanta is a business city and that is how many people view it. I really don't think much can be done to make it a tourist hotspot.
To those who live in Atlanta, the spots mentioned above are not interesting at all. By the same token, beaches to residents who live near by are nothing more than water. However all that Atlanta currently has are attractions to visitors. The only problem is that those are not enough to attract more people to come for a visit. We need to overcome shortcomings and build our strength in order to turn Atlanta into tourist's city. Building Midtown into a shopping mecca, more covenient mass transit system like New York, museum and art places, and more top ranked skysrapers, etc. will improve Atlana's image as a tourist attraction. Bottom line is financial resources. It takes long time for Atlanta to reach its goal.

[john3eblover]

I have a friend who came here all the way from Australia and one of the first things she wanted to see was Stone Mountain. We also went to the Elvis Shrine at the Star Bar.

thats funny considering Australia has the worlds largest monolithic rock ahead of Stone Mountain...Ayers Rock ( I think)...

i've always really wanted to see Australia. ironic

[SteveD]

thats funny considering Australia has the worlds largest monolithic rock ahead of Stone Mountain...Ayers Rock ( I think)...

i've always really wanted to see Australia. ironic

Hmmm...I've read somewhere (I can't recall) that Stone Mountain was the 3rd largest monolith in the world. With Ayers Rock, I wonder what No. 2 is?

[john3eblover]

Hmmm...I've read somewhere (I can't recall) that Stone Mountain was the 3rd largest monolith in the world. With Ayers Rock, I wonder what No. 2 is?

well 2nd or 3rd, you might be right. i thought it was the 2nd, but who knows. biggest in the US though right? I mean thats gotta count for something. I mean how random is a 1000 foot granite rock rising out of eastern Atlanta?!? Its been a pleasure living near it for the last 18 years or so...i take it for granted now. Sometime when I'm home I'm gonna climb it again and give it a proper photo tour. I think most Atlantans take it for granted. Its a great park.

[Turbosloth]

Personally, when I go to a big city, it's not the paid attractions that I remember. It's the fabric of the city, the views, the setting. We don't have the history of New York and Chicago? That distinction diminishes with every year that passes. We'll never have a dramatic shoreline, of course, but we can be an amazingly, memorably pleasant place. The biggest thing we could do is preserve the urban forest, create more trails, and buy back land for more in-town parks. The feeling we get from being at the water's edge is not too different from that of being surrounded by green nature. As one example, I'd love to see the whole downtown connector north of Freedom Parkway covered with park land. I'd miss the views driving, but it would be a big net gain. Oh ... and we could put a Ferris wheel on it just bigger than the London Eye!

Transit is the next thing. The core of the city is certainly dense enough now to support a much fuller network. We need to tip the transportation spending balance more and more towards transit and away from roads.

What could make the city more unique is cultural phenomena, like New Orleans' cuisine and music, San Francisco and New York's art scenes, etc. It's easy to capitalize on these things once they're identified, but it's not something you can easily contrive.

And if we're going to talk attractions, I can think of a few. First of all, I'm in the camp that believes that the Civil Rights Museum should reflect mankind's struggle worldwide. Other possible museum topics: transportation, medicine, architecture, geography. And why not throw some casinos in the mix, as well?

[Psykomonkee]

Personally, when I go to a big city, it's not the paid attractions that I remember. It's the fabric of the city, the views, the setting. We don't have the history of New York and Chicago? That distinction diminishes with every year that passes. We'll never have a dramatic shoreline, of course, but we can be an amazingly, memorably pleasant place. The biggest thing we could do is preserve the urban forest, create more trails, and buy back land for more in-town parks. The feeling we get from being at the water's edge is not too different from that of being surrounded by green nature. As one example, I'd love to see the whole downtown connector north of Freedom Parkway covered with park land. I'd miss the views driving, but it would be a big net gain. Oh ... and we could put a Ferris wheel on it just bigger than the London Eye!

Transit is the next thing. The core of the city is certainly dense enough now to support a much fuller network. We need to tip the transportation spending balance more and more towards transit and away from roads.

What could make the city more unique is cultural phenomena, like New Orleans' cuisine and music, San Francisco and New York's art scenes, etc. It's easy to capitalize on these things once they're identified, but it's not something you can easily contrive.

And if we're going to talk attractions, I can think of a few. First of all, I'm in the camp that believes that the Civil Rights Museum should reflect mankind's struggle worldwide. Other possible museum topics: transportation, medicine, architecture, geography. And why not throw some casinos in the mix, as well?


I agree with every point that you've made. And its funny you should say your idea about greenspace above the downtown connector, because I have long been imagining the same thing. I imagine a long series of connected bridges over the connector between North Ave and 10th. One LONG structure that will be covered in grass (parkland) and landscaped with nothing but hundreds of dogwood trees (and maybe cherry trees) in rows lining walkways and courtyards, water fountains and statues. Imagine what that would look like in early spring when all the dogwood trees are in full white bloom. I called it "Dogwood City Park." There could be a "Dogwood city festival" held in the park during that time in spring. And it be the solution that finally reconnects the east and west sides of Midtown. Finally, it would be a pleasand walk from GA Tech to Peachtree. And could you imagine the views and photo op of the skyline from that perspective, while standing next to a fountain in a courtyard surrounded by dogwood trees?... GREAT...

As far as all the people's view of "we don't have natural water features or land features, etc..." as being a reason that the city is limited, I have to disagree. True Atlanta is without a prominent water feature, but that never stopped Dallas, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Orlando (Those little lakes don't count)... If a man can stand in the middle of the Nevada desert and half a century later a GREAT city/destination rise out of the same sand that he stood, then surely Atlanta can do better than that. I'm not saying that Atlanta needs to be a tourist trap, and this is not an arguement that Atlanta doesn't already have any attractions, but if we spend all our time trying to defend what attractions Atlanta has now as reason why we don't need to worry about reaching for the stars, then there will be no improvement. My point is, we need fresh ideas... Don't STOP at the Beltline. Don't get comfortable and satisfied with GA Aquarium, because even the world's greatest Aquarium could use an improvement. Shoot for the stars.... WHAT IDEAS DO YOU ALL HAVE??? Lets share...

And, if you absolutely NEED water features, something can be done about that... Don't just throw your hands up and settle for the "oh well, that's all we were given." This is just an opportunity for the greatness of human ingenuity to do it's work.

How about Peachtree Creek... "Peachtree Creekwalk." Sure its a dirty shallow cesspool now, but it doesn't have to stay that way. Filter it. Clean it up. Then develope along the stretch of creek between Peachtree street and Piedmont. That's just short of a two mile long stretch of creek. The creek crosses Peachtree just north of Peachtree Memorial Drive, and it reaches Piedmont just south of Garson Drive (if you want to map it). It could be developed on both sides with a pedestrian only district with small (illuminated) bridges. The creek could even be illuminated (no fish anyway). You could even place small fountains in the middle of the creek. For example, imagine Helen, GA (with it's shallow creek) and San Antonio's Riverwalk (with it's development). AND TO TOP IT OFF, THE BELTLINE IS GOING TO TRAVEL RIGHT PAST IT ON THE SOUTHERN END ANYWAY. Could be added as a Beltline development. That would be a VERY pleasant place to be. To add character, the buildings would resemble a long line of Antebellum style homes built along the water connected in series by many stone and wooden walkays and shaded with oak, pine, dogwood and magnolia trees. The area could house restaurants, retail, apartments, townhouses, gift shops, bars, etc... At the first elbow turn in the creek, there is a large mass of wooded land on the northern side of the creek. That could be made into a nice park with a large statue as the centerpiece...

This idea may not be for everyone, but it's something. What do you think of it anyway...

[Chris Creech]

As far as all the people's view of "we don't have natural water features or land features, etc..." as being a reason that the city is limited, I have to disagree. True Atlanta is without a prominent water feature, but that never stopped Dallas, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Orlando (Those little lakes don't count)... If a man can stand in the middle of the Nevada desert and half a century later a GREAT city/destination rise out of the same sand that he stood, then surely Atlanta can do better than that.

I've never understood that argument that a great city needs to be on the water. The only thing with that is that most historically great cities are on the water because they were port and and trade hubs.

That's still true for a lot of cities, Miami, NYC, New Orleans, they are still very active water commerce cities.

A lot of landlocked cities (like Atlanta) were built around train trade and goods transport, the rails pretty much replaced water transport. Then later trains were replaced by interstate trucking (which has benefitted Atlanta as well. Also, Airports have also stepped in as they major means of business traveler transport.

So yeah, Atlanta's not on a major navigation/trade waterway, but it has all three of the other things going for it, rail, interstates, and airport. It's not so much rivers that provide the basis of new cities as transportation.

A couple of other things I'd love to see in Atlanta:

1) an observation deck/tower, or even a platform on a supertall, that's a destination.

2) More museums, it's great we have the Woodruff, but that's a double edged sword, it's a great institution but it also sucks all the air (money) out the room. It's hard for smaller museums and groups to get funding.

3) A couple of great monuments. Yeah, the AS arch is going to be nice, and there's sculpture scattered around, but we could use another arch or two, big column with a nice statue on it here and there.

4) I have a friend who keeps saying that downtown/centennial park needs a "London Eye" type ferris wheel, it could even be on top of a building, or you could have a roller coaster on top of a building (like in Vegas). Some sort of destination attraction downtown.

5) Cover over big chunks of the downtown connector. You'd get rid of some of the physical/perceived divisions in the city and real estate that is now marginal for development because it's next to a busy interstate, leapfrogs to very desirable because it's then looking out over a park. It doesn't have to be a full blown Big Dig kinda thing, but maybe more than 50%.

6) I know it wouldn't go over well, but Atlanta should have a Civil Rights museum, Gay History, AND a Civil War museum. The Civil War was a major shaping influence on Atlanta, and an important part of it's history.

7) Atlanta, South of I-20, there is still a great need for development inthis area. The redevelopment of Lakewood and Ft. McPhearson and other areas will help. But the South Side of Atlanta just below I-20 and beyond offers a lot of large parcels of land that can be turned into vibrant village hubs. Like redoing Mall West End, etc. MARTA's already in place, it's convenient located. Close to the airport. That also helps keep downtown Atlanta as the "center" of the metro area. Now it's more around N. Buckhead/Perimeter.

I'm sure there's others, and other people covered some other items, but those are off the top of my head.

[Andrea]

well 2nd or 3rd, you might be right. i thought it was the 2nd, but who knows. biggest in the US though right?

I think Stone Mountain is the world's largest granite monadnock. Ayers Rock is mere sandstone.

I also read recently that Georgia has the second highest number of nuclear weapons. If Iran can use them for a tourist attraction, why can't we?

[NativeAtlantan]

Our City???? Psykomonkee, are you from Atlanta and just happen to live in DC?

It's hard to view this as a geniune post when you have no rep in the Atlanta threads.

[Psykomonkee]

Our City???? Psykomonkee, are you from Atlanta and just happen to live in DC?

It's hard to view this as a geniune post when you have no rep in the Atlanta threads.

Not here to defend myself, but if you really want to know... I was Atlanta born and Atlanta bred... I'm just in DC temporarily. My job is homeported here. Only been here since Sept. 04, and I'm leaving DC in May 07. I want to come home, but my wife wants to take a position that will have her working in San Diego. So, I'm looking to see if my company has a position in San Diego for me. That will also only be temporary. I'm in school and will be pursuing a degree in architecture and urban development. (Gov. contractor if you're curious what I do now.) Now enough of that... Lets talk ATLANTA... Not me.

Andrea...
You are correct about Stone Mountain being the World's Largest Mass Exposed Granite, but did you know that Stone Mountain also holds a couple of other world titles as well. Stone Mountain is home to the World's biggest laser light show and that sculpture on the side is the World's Largest Relief Carving which means that it's bigger than Mount Rushmore... I don't understand why Mount Rushmore is more known... Is it just because it's 4 presidents vs some confederate guys, or is it simply because they've marketed Mount Rushmore better? Whats your take?

[popewiz]

I'd assume it's just better marketing, Rushmore is in the middle of nowhere in South Dakota.

[Tombstoner]

I don't understand why Mount Rushmore is more known... Is it just because it's 4 presidents vs some confederate guys, or is it simply because they've marketed Mount Rushmore better? Whats your take?

I can think of 3 reasons: it is more three-dimensional/statue-like, easier to get closer to and appreciate, and Cary Grant ran around it in a very good Hitchcock movie.;)

seriously, it is a much more impressive sight--even when you know that Stone Mountain's carving is larger, it is just so dwarfed by the rest of the mountain that it looks relatively insignificant.

[Psykomonkee]

I can think of 3 reasons: it is more three-dimensional/statue-like, easier to get closer to and appreciate, and Cary Grant ran around it in a very good Hitchcock movie.;)

seriously, it is a much more impressive sight--even when you know that Stone Mountain's carving is larger, it is just so dwarfed by the rest of the mountain that it looks relatively insignificant.


I see... good point. It does look pretty tiny on the side of the mountain. But it's still nice.

[Andrea]

I can think of 3 reasons: it is more three-dimensional/statue-like, easier to get closer to and appreciate, and Cary Grant ran around it in a very good Hitchcock movie.;)

seriously, it is a much more impressive sight--even when you know that Stone Mountain's carving is larger, it is just so dwarfed by the rest of the mountain that it looks relatively insignificant.


I have never been to Mt. Rushmore, but in the world of giant rocks it's pretty hard to top Stone Mountain. Of course we'll always get the short end of the stick because the world thinks a bunch of redneck Southern yahoos could never have anything as interesting or important as some place like South Dakota. I guess they are conveniently overlooking the fact that two of the four people on Mt. Rushmore are also Southerners.

:yes:

[Tombstoner]

I have never been to Mt. Rushmore, but in the world of giant rocks it's pretty hard to top Stone Mountain. Of course we'll always get the short end of the stick because the world thinks a bunch of redneck Southern yahoos could never have anything as interesting or important as some place like South Dakota. I guess they are conveniently overlooking the fact that two of the four people on Mt. Rushmore are also Southerners.

:yes:

Andrea--this is a Southern-nationalist side of you I haven't seen to date. :D

Stone Mountain is definitely more impressive than Mt Rushmore as an outcropping, but I think Rushmore's carving is what people focus on. When you're there you can get a couple hundred yards away and directly see that it's gi-normous (and the angle at which you stand makes you look up and gives the impression that the entire mountain has been carved away to accomodate these four faces) whereas the size of the carving on Stone Mountain is almost impossible to gauge without someone telling you "the horses' tails are 96 feet long" or showing you a picture of workers carving Lee's eyebrow. In this sense, it feels very mediated rather than direct. As with Mt. Rushmore, I think the vantagepoint has something to do with the wow factor or lack thereof. I think if they had carved the relief higher on the mountain, it would register as more grand. That being said, I suspect there are some politics involved given the subject matter.

[john3eblover]

I have never been to Mt. Rushmore, but in the world of giant rocks it's pretty hard to top Stone Mountain. Of course we'll always get the short end of the stick because the world thinks a bunch of redneck Southern yahoos could never have anything as interesting or important as some place like South Dakota. I guess they are conveniently overlooking the fact that two of the four people on Mt. Rushmore are also Southerners.

:yes:

EXACTLY :-)

[Psykomonkee]

I have another thought about the "need" for a water feature in Atlanta... When I was in Oklahoma City, I spent a little time in a part of town called Brickton or Bricktown or so... In that part of town they had this really nice MANMADE canal. It was a great idea. Why not in a new development in Atlanta?

My aunt sold someone a house ON a MANMADE canal in the neighborhood of Venice in Los Angeles. Those canals are very shallow, but a nice feature.

Aside from my "Peachtree Creekwalk" idea, there are other things that can be done to add water as a part of Atlanta.

Why not build a series on connected canals in the Westside Park when they develope it. That should be EASY... They are going to make a deep manmade lake anyway... just dig out a series of canals first and add a few water filters so that it all doesn't turn into a huge stagnant cesspool. Then, once it's all complete, offer small boat rides through the canals or small paddle boats. Have small arch bridges over the canals (kind of Venice like). Imagine how nice the jog around that park would be, along side a canal through trees...

If canals are not for Atlanta, there's always fountains. Build LOTS of large fountains all around the downtown, midtown and Buckhead areas. Why not do both ideas...

[Psykomonkee]

Oklahoma City's Bricktown Canals
http://z.about.com/d/okc/1/7/w/OntheWater.JPG
http://www.carey-hughes.com/images2/canal3.jpg
http://www.carey-hughes.com/images2/canal5.jpg
http://www.carey-hughes.com/images2/canal_waterfall.jpg
http://www.carey-hughes.com/images2/canal.jpg


San Antonio's Riverwalk
http://www2.iap.fr/users/rocher/SAcentreVille/Riverwalk.jpg
http://www.trinity.edu/org/ics/san-antonio-riverwalk-bridge-lg.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hmpi/Projects/SanAntonioRiverwalk/P1012155.jpg
http://www.paulscharffphotography.com/San_Antonio_Riverwalk.JPG
http://www.jimtardio.com/san-antonio/san-antonio-riverwalk.jpg

Turns out that the San Antonio Riverwalk is manmade as well...

[Psykomonkee]

This is exactly what Peachtree Creek could look if developed...

http://www.trinity.edu/org/ics/san-antonio-riverwalk-bridge-lg.jpg
http://www.paulscharffphotography.com/San_Antonio_Riverwalk.JPG
http://photos.jeffreyharrell.com/images/large/IMG_1415.JPG
http://www.thrifty.com/images/rx/img2696.jpg

Would also be a great new ending point for the annual St. Patrick's Day parade. The party could start there at the end of the parade. And they could dye the water green...

[Turbosloth]

That's actually a great idea about Peachtree Creek. There's a good bit of it that just has warehouses backing up to it. That would be the portion to target. It's not big enough to get boats on, but that's OK.

On another topic, someone had mentioned monuments. Any ideas for a monument for Atlanta as powerful and recognizable as the Statue of Liberty, Washington Monument or Gateway Arch? Does Atlanta have anything so grand to celebrate? Maybe it does, in conjunction with the Civil Rights Museum. Just a sketch of an idea, but imagine a man with broken bonds facing the Statue of Liberty ... a couple hundred feet tall. Or is architectural the way to go? Maybe an observatory that completely breaks the mold for traditional skewered discs?

[smurf]

Being closeby, I've never seen Atlanta as anything interesting to visit, nor does anyone I know. Maybe to go to Six Flags or something, but not to be a tourist. Why does Atlanta fail to me? Well, its not exactly got geography working on its side, the area is relativly flat save a giant rock sitting around. Atlanta doesn't try to build anything interesting, they just try to build the biggest dang thing they can. So its the biggest in the world, whoopdeedo, its so big people don't even want to deal with it. Atlanta is a mini-New York. New York gets a lot of attraction due to its sheer size and amount of things to do, which are a byproduct of the size. Atlanta is big, but not big enough to have enough things to do. To me, its just a barrier to go somewhere farther south. Heck, I've never even seen an advertisement for Atlanta, but I have for Savannah.
Yea, I'll be flamed by refuse to accept the truth, but thats ok.

[MrIcon85]

did you not no Atlanta is the city of a hundred hills? There are mountains 35-40 Miles north of the city...

[MidtownMile]

The problem is that Atlanta lacks the things that make these places distinctive.

1. Size. It will never be a Chicago, NY, or LA, so it doesn't get distinctive areas solely because they are the biggest.

2. Cultural Celebration. Vegas, New Orleans, Memphis, Nashville, etc. exist by being focused on one main thing. They are the meccas for these various cultural traits. Atlanta could do this, but it is too big to focus like this.

3. Longevity. While history is important, another aspect is longevity. What is one of the first things people say? Oh, you are actually FROM here? No one's from here! It is a hodgepodge of transplants.

So, having said all that, Atlanta has a great opportunity to start fresh. It, with some exceptions, can craft its own way because its history hasn't dictated what it is/should be. So, some ways to go:

1. I really like the idea of a world (or at least US) oriented Human Rights museum. Obviously, a very significant portion should be focused toward the American Civil Rights movement, but Atlanta is poised to be the cultural celebration hub. The TRUE melting pot. This would be a big step toward that.

2. Atlanta needs a more accessible sports scene. I think one of the best things would be to turn the area around Turner Field into a Wrigleyville type area. Develop homes for young transplants. Restaurants and fun destinations. Have it be THE place you go during game days, regardless of whether you actually enter the stadium. Transportation is a big factor here, but, the larger the area, the shorter the transportation has to be to get to that location.

3. I would love to see Atlanta solidify its place in the food world. It is doing some great things. I think it could be a wonderful place for a major celebration or, perhaps more daringly, a major cultural venue for American food. While it is somewhat of a focused group in the population, food technique, history, etc. has never been more popular and will likely continue to do so. Therefore, in a city that is really promoting new and creative cuisine, why not create a flagship venue: the American Culinary Museum.

4. I also love Atlanta's ability to preserve greenspace. With that, I would love to see a combination venue. By that, I mean look at NY, Chicago, etc.'s art scenes. Most are divided into several specified museums/gallerys. While Atlanta likely will not pull in these, it has a wonderful opportunity to combine its strength with that. Why not create a series of Sculpture gardens across the city that focus on a theme. Classical sculpture with traditional English gardens. Modernist works with Japanese gardens. That over-freeway park with Southern artists. And, the flagship as the Atlanta Botanical Gardens featuring the masterpieces. That divides the areas across the city and gives a collection to Atlanta (the Urban Gardens City?)

5. Atlanta needs an iconic structure. It can't survive off the tallest anymore. While I think Allen Plaza will help, I do think it needs one piece to really solidify it (the Westin doesn't work anymore). Be it a Ferris wheel, a tower, or something decidedly more Southern, I think is up to a creative mind. But, like St. Louis, Seattle, and even Dallas and San Fancisco, defining structures are unfortunately lacking in our Skyline.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for reading! :D

[john3eblover]

Being closeby, I've never seen Atlanta as anything interesting to visit, nor does anyone I know. Maybe to go to Six Flags or something, but not to be a tourist. Why does Atlanta fail to me? Well, its not exactly got geography working on its side, the area is relativly flat save a giant rock sitting around. Atlanta doesn't try to build anything interesting, they just try to build the biggest dang thing they can. So its the biggest in the world, whoopdeedo, its so big people don't even want to deal with it. Atlanta is a mini-New York. New York gets a lot of attraction due to its sheer size and amount of things to do, which are a byproduct of the size. Atlanta is big, but not big enough to have enough things to do. To me, its just a barrier to go somewhere farther south. Heck, I've never even seen an advertisement for Atlanta, but I have for Savannah.
Yea, I'll be flamed by refuse to accept the truth, but thats ok.

sounds like a case of aquarium jealousy to me ;)

[dante2308]

Question. How many New-Urbanists does it take to think transit in Atlanta will solve everything?

Answer?

Doesn't matter because tourism in Atlanta has nothing to do with expanding the transit network. The aquarium brought more people to the city than five aquarium-worths of new MARTA stops (perhaps two stops) ever could. For example, Las Vegas is one of the most famous cities in the United States. People come form all over the world to see it and keep coming back with other dream of visiting one day. Please don't expect me to believe that transit helped make Las Vegas what it is. All that place needed was an airport and it was set.

You work on your strengths. Atlanta's strength isn't a historic transit system so barely anyone is going to travel here to see our MARTA no matter how big it gets. Better to go to a city like New York where the subway was invented. Atlanta isn't even the kind of city where it is natural to have mass transit, so that it has a heavy rail network is amazing for a Sunbelt city, but it isn't the draw.

Atlanta can work on what it does best instead. That is, have the world's biggest this or the world's busiest that. If we keep creating these monuments, we are sure to make a name for ourselves. Add that to a night life and we should be set. (Yes night clubs and cultural events are equally important to Atlanta's future. Young people come to Atlanta and keep asking, 'what is there to do?' Believe it or not, young people are a huge percentage of the population and should be catered to.)

Music Midtown was a great event until the canceled it. We should continue to host huge cultural events and make a name for ourselves that way. We can also focus on other strengths like the Martin Luther King Museum to celebrate the rich black history of the city. Gay Pride Atlanta, though controversial, but very much a reality, draws hundreds of thousand here too.

If you want Atlanta to become a world-class city, you focus on what you got. No we don't need to create a waterfront through downtown somehow. We weren't built around a river so we shouldn't have one going through our city. If you like water, there is Stone Mountain's water features and Lake Lanier. If you like the ocean, visit the ocean. Tourists don't need to come here and see Atlanta's pathetic attempt at copying other's cities' waterfronts. Believe it or not, our elevation and hilly terrain sets us apart from many cities and is something to be proud of. We aren't merely a grid set upon an endless flat expanse like so many American cities. We have a dynamic road network that curves and twists and intersects a different angles creating interesting street scape possibilities.

Once again, people don't merely visit Atlanta. There are many places that are nice to visit, but you wouldn't want to live in. Atlanta is nice to visit and has the highest in-migration of any city in the United States. We're doing something right. Maybe a lot tourists have just already moved here.

[dante2308]

Being closeby, I've never seen Atlanta as anything interesting to visit, nor does anyone I know. Maybe to go to Six Flags or something, but not to be a tourist. Why does Atlanta fail to me? Well, its not exactly got geography working on its side, the area is relativly flat save a giant rock sitting around. Atlanta doesn't try to build anything interesting, they just try to build the biggest dang thing they can. So its the biggest in the world, whoopdeedo, its so big people don't even want to deal with it. Atlanta is a mini-New York. New York gets a lot of attraction due to its sheer size and amount of things to do, which are a byproduct of the size. Atlanta is big, but not big enough to have enough things to do. To me, its just a barrier to go somewhere farther south. Heck, I've never even seen an advertisement for Atlanta, but I have for Savannah.
Yea, I'll be flamed by refuse to accept the truth, but thats ok.

It is a matter of personal taste I guess. For a city with as many things to do as Atlanta to not have anything that interests you makes me wonder what does interest you and why you haven't found it here. By the way, you don't see New York or Paris advertising itself. Some places don't need to tell people that they are great for people to come.

[cabasse]

bringing some sort of a water feature isn't "copying other cities" in the same way that building retail in midtown following cues of other great shopping districts in other cities isn't. it's doing what works; beautifying and improving the city.

i would absolutely love to see peachtree creek cleaned up and put to use for something other than a forgotten-about sewer. that in itself would be a wonderfully creative new idea, something i've never previously heard about before in other cities. other possible areas are the water works, and the bellwood quarry lake; these things bring needed natural gathering spaces. you can't deny the beauty of clara meer in piedmont park - it's just a bit too small. has anyone heard about or seen that photo exhibit about atlanta's forgotten watershed, at the fernbank science center a few years back? Link 1 (http://fsc.fernbank.edu/peachtree.html) | 2 (http://www.hillstreetpress.com/PeachtreeCreek.html)

as the city matures, it will grow into more of a tourist attraction, by its very nature. i don't think chicago and new york ever planned to become such, it was just an added benefit of becoming what they are now. (tourist attractions) the best thing the city could do for itself is just to beautify and improve in any and every possible way.

also - transit solves the world's problems! it's a cure for cancer! creates world peace! (indirectly, actually!)

lastly, please forgive me if i've stolen any ideas previously mentioned in the past 4 years from other forumers... when i read things, i generally forget where i heard about them first.

[MidtownMile]

That's actually a great idea about Peachtree Creek. There's a good bit of it that just has warehouses backing up to it. That would be the portion to target. It's not big enough to get boats on, but that's OK.

On another topic, someone had mentioned monuments. Any ideas for a monument for Atlanta as powerful and recognizable as the Statue of Liberty, Washington Monument or Gateway Arch? Does Atlanta have anything so grand to celebrate? Maybe it does, in conjunction with the Civil Rights Museum. Just a sketch of an idea, but imagine a man with broken bonds facing the Statue of Liberty ... a couple hundred feet tall. Or is architectural the way to go? Maybe an observatory that completely breaks the mold for traditional skewered discs?

Just a thought on this. Atlanta is one of the highest cities and is certainly the highest in the Southeast. Since we have this southern "Renaissance" of sorts going on, why not build the Southern Apex. Just a thought... put it over the connector basically in front of where Allen Plaza is going. Have it be basically a 450' tall square-based "pipe" pyramid. Inside, place a small round tower (nothing more than really a glorified elevator bank) and have discs every 100' or so that get smaller as you rise up the tower. Each of these could be an observation deck (4-5 in total). Then, at the top, install an icon light similar to what Luxor in Vegas has. I know it is cheesy, but it is a way to get noticed. Furthermore, it would tie in quite nicely with the new Allen Plaza look. Have the exit roadways run underneath it and install some nice water and garden features over it so that it connects Midtown and Downtown across the highway.

[Turbosloth]

Atlanta's strength isn't a historic transit system so barely anyone is going to travel here to see our MARTA no matter how big it gets.

Who said anything about MARTA being the attraction? I see it, in its mature state, as easy, pervasive mobility without having to worry about parking.

[Turbosloth]

What about a large fountain/mechanical sculpture on the Connector park which completely changes shape every solstice and equinox, to the accompaniment of live music, fireworks, etc.? Make Atlanta the place for celebrating the passage of the seasons.

[Tombstoner]

What about a large fountain/mechanical sculpture on the Connector park which completely changes shape every solstice and equinox, to the accompaniment of live music, fireworks, etc.? Make Atlanta the place for celebrating the passage of the seasons.

nice thought.

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

I don't know. I thought Atlanta already was a regional tourist destination. Will people from Chicago say, "hey guys we're going on our vacation to Atlanta!!!" Probably not going to happen. But you know, it's okay if it doesn't.

Does anyone from Atlanta really just take vacations to Houston, Dallas, Philadelphia, Chicago, etc. Probably not. They're not tourist towns for the most part. They're big cities (and great cities) and they exist for business and pleasure and as magnets for hicks in surrounding areas to go to the "big city." That's what Atlanta exists for. It's there for people all over the region to head up to the big city, listen to some good music, get a little crazy, maybe get arrested, and--until recently anyway--end up passed out in someone's front yard in Buckhead.

Oh, and I'm visiting family in the next few weeks up in the Alpha and I am going to Stone Mountain. If you've never tried it, it's always fun to run as hard as you can straight down the mountain (it's not so fun if you fall though).

[Curious Atlantan]

I remember some time ago an urban planner said that you would not like to visit a place where you would not want to live in. I tend to agree with this assesment with the clear exception of cities like Las Vegas or Orlando where nobody is visiting the cities, but the attractions.
So I think we need to make Atlanta a better place to live in and the tourists will come. Look at New York or Chicago - yes they have nice waterfronts but when I visit in New York I don't dream of spending my time on the waterfront but on the busy and vibrant streets, shops, restaurants, the parks and the museums. A very busy and vibrant street life very important.
Atlanta does have some nice tree-lined intown neighborhoods and we need to capitalize on that by encouraging more mixed-use developments so that people can enjoy them - more neighborhood restaurants and retail. I also think that Atlanta needs more density and public transportation so that both residents and tourists do not need a car to enjoy what Atlanta has to offer, so the Beltline is crucial. A streetcar on Peachtree is also very important. World-class shopping on Peachtree easily accessible to pedestrians. Build all that and I know everybody will want to come to Atlanta.

[Tombstoner]

I don't know. I thought Atlanta already was a regional tourist destination. Will people from Chicago say, "hey guys we're going on our vacation to Atlanta!!!" Probably not going to happen. But you know, it's okay if it doesn't.

Does anyone from Atlanta really just take vacations to Houston, Dallas, Philadelphia, Chicago, etc. Probably not. They're not tourist towns for the most part. They're big cities (and great cities) and they exist for business and pleasure and as magnets for hicks in surrounding areas to go to the "big city." That's what Atlanta exists for. It's there for people all over the region to head up to the big city, listen to some good music, get a little crazy, maybe get arrested, and--until recently anyway--end up passed out in someone's front yard in Buckhead.

Oh, and I'm visiting family in the next few weeks up in the Alpha and I am going to Stone Mountain. If you've never tried it, it's always fun to run as hard as you can straight down the mountain (it's not so fun if you fall though).

I definitely vacation in Chicago and Philly (am going to Philly at the end of the month, in fact). Great museums, architecture, history. Unfortunately, I'd have to lump Atlanta with Dallas and Houston -- not much of a tourist spot.

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

I guess I mispoke with Chicago and Philadelphia. I just feel that Atlanta is already a regional tourist destination. As far as making it a national tourist destination, maybe a Human Rights Museum that I've heard mentioned a few times would enhance its image as well as capitalize on Atlanta's civil rights history.

[dante2308]

bringing some sort of a water feature isn't "copying other cities" in the same way that building retail in midtown following cues of other great shopping districts in other cities isn't. it's doing what works; beautifying and improving the city.

i would absolutely love to see peachtree creek cleaned up and put to use for something other than a forgotten-about sewer. that in itself would be a wonderfully creative new idea, something i've never previously heard about before in other cities. other possible areas are the water works, and the bellwood quarry lake; these things bring needed natural gathering spaces. you can't deny the beauty of clara meer in piedmont park - it's just a bit too small. has anyone heard about or seen that photo exhibit about atlanta's forgotten watershed, at the fernbank science center a few years back? Link 1 (http://fsc.fernbank.edu/peachtree.html) | 2 (http://www.hillstreetpress.com/PeachtreeCreek.html)

as the city matures, it will grow into more of a tourist attraction, by its very nature. i don't think chicago and new york ever planned to become such, it was just an added benefit of becoming what they are now. (tourist attractions) the best thing the city could do for itself is just to beautify and improve in any and every possible way.

also - transit solves the world's problems! it's a cure for cancer! creates world peace! (indirectly, actually!)

lastly, please forgive me if i've stolen any ideas previously mentioned in the past 4 years from other forumers... when i read things, i generally forget where i heard about them first.

I do agree with most of this. Though I don't like "Midtown Mile" for it's name. It should be called "Midtown Atlanta" or perhaps just "Peachtree and Midtown." That way we aren't a cheap knock off of Chicago. A famous shopping district is fine. It was already growing there anyway. A tourist trap knock off of another city's with a similar name is not.

Water features are fine, but we don't need to dig a canal where we don't have or need one and pretend we're Fort Lauderdale or something. The Chatahoochee is pristine and beautiful. No need to create a false image for people who only visit the inner core of Atlanta.

I think Atlanta has and will become an attraction if it continues to beautify and grow. Inside the state, it definitely draws many tourists. Inside the region, it draws more still. To the forumer who said that Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas are the same they aren't. Atlanta is on a different axis at the moment. While all three cities are growing quickly, Atlanta is a different animal. It has quite some potential and no matter if people like to lump the cities together or stereotype the south Atlanta will continue to surprise all who visit here as it continues to surprise all who live here.

[CityFan]

Heck, I've never even seen an advertisement for Atlanta, but I have for Savannah.
Atlanta doesn't need to advertise. Everybody knows it. If someone doesn't know it, that's his/her problem, just like New York or Sydney that doesn't need advertisements. Daily news and movie scenes advertise for them. How many people in the world know Savannah? They are in two different categories. LOL.

[cabasse]

i agree with your statement regarding the name. i'm not suggesting we follow futurama's example or anything; i just think it would really add something to the city if one was to reclaim it's creeks and focus on them as parkland and development potential. does anyone know anything about these ditches?

1 (http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3342/ditch1tb2.jpg)|2 (http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4876/ditch2by4.jpg)

i definitely agree about your statement that atl's on a different plane, for now at least.

lastly, nice avatar avatar, psychomonkee.

[SteveD]

does anyone know anything about these ditches?



Yes. That ditch was in the "back yard" of a property that I recently assessed. It's an open-air concrete storm water drainage channel. Storm water flows northwestly (up and to the left) in that image.

[NativeAtlantan]

This is near my house....I think it's basically the Tanyard creek-bed that was turned into a storm drain like SteveD mentioned....the concrete part ends just to the north of the new Bryson Square apartments that you see to your right as you go North (it's actually more West at this point) up I-75.

PATH has proposed to develop some paths along this bed running from the P'tree Battle area all the way down through Bobby Jones Golf Course, Collier Hills, Tanyard Creek park, Ardmore Park and through to Loring Heights and probably through to Atlantic station. Would also connect with the Beltline, if the NW section currently proposed ends up being in the final plan (which I pray happens).

[trvlr70]

Sadly, although Atlanta is an old city in the US, not very much of its history is preserved. Fires and a lack of respect for historic architecture has pretty much destroyed all historical buildings that would have given it more character.

Atlanta has always seemed to me to be a very modern city. The city should embrace this image and try to be even more cutting edge and modern.

[erm1981]

I thought the civil war destroyed a lot didnt it?

[dante2308]

Atlanta isn't an old city. It wasn't really even a 'city' until recently. It wasn't founded until just before the civil war and it was burnt to the ground. Lets not assume to much.

[MarketsWork]

Atlanta isn't an old city. It wasn't really even a 'city' until recently. It wasn't founded until just before the civil war and it was burnt to the ground. Lets not assume to much.

Exactly! Considering that Sherman completely destroyed Atlanta in 1865 and that rebuilding took decades in the midst of post-war poverty, Atlanta is a very young city. Most of what you see has been accomplished by only four generations of Atlantans. That is a very short time.

[Tombstoner]

To the forumer who said that Atlanta, Houston, and Dallas are the same they aren't. Atlanta is on a different axis at the moment. While all three cities are growing quickly, Atlanta is a different animal...

Quite honestly, I think Dallas is ill-served by the comparison. It has done more with public arts and transit than Atlanta has. I lived there for awhile and can't take the heat, but in terms of vision, I think we could learn a lot.

[AubieTurtle]

If this is going to turn into another junior high level versus thread, can we split it off into a new thread so we can ignore it? Or better yet, move it to SSC where they like that kind of thing?

[cabasse]

gracias for the info, steve and nativeatlantan. where is the origin of the drain, the downtown connector? i've been trying to trace the paths of the various creeks-turned-storm drains in the city, imagining developments a-la san antonio along them. (*choke* i just complemented san antonio)

tombstoner, atl has an almost 3 decade head start on rail transit over dallas, with atl having over quadruple the ridership, even with fewer miles. heavy versus light rail, a real subway, blah blah blah... as far as the arts go, atlanta's definitely growing into something bigger. i recently found out that the aso was the first orchestra to ever be recorded with a digital process, back in the late '70s by telarc. definitely a groundbreaking achievement, if you ask me, considering the size of the city back then. the aso is arguably the premier symphony orchestra in the southeast, if not the entire south. (dallas/houston included) robert shaw, anyone? [/my 2 cents, this paragraph is entirely "imho"]

now if we could just do something like they've been working on with their trinity "river" and calatrava bridge... that project is pretty amazing, as is houston's buffalo bayou redevelopment.

[Tombstoner]

tombstoner, atl has an almost 3 decade head start on rail transit over dallas, with atl having over quadruple the ridership, even with fewer miles. heavy versus light rail, a real subway, blah blah blah... as far as the arts go, atlanta's definitely growing into something bigger. i recently found out that the aso was the first orchestra to ever be recorded with a digital process, back in the late '70s by telarc. definitely a groundbreaking achievement, if you ask me, considering the size of the city back then. the aso is arguably the premier symphony orchestra in the southeast, if not the entire south. (dallas/houston included) robert shaw, anyone? [/my 2 cents, this paragraph is entirely "imho"]

cabasse--Believe me, I realize Dallas is no paragon of urban virtue, but their arts scene is far superior to ours (we have a better symphony in a crappy hall, they have a perfectly decent symphony in the Myerson and in Ft. Worth they have another decent symphony in the Bass), the DAM, Nasher, and Tramell-Crow are major museums. Over in Ft. Worth, of course, there's the Amon-Carter, Tadao's new FW Museum of Modern Art, and of course, the Kimbell. Deep Ellum vs. Buckhead (nuf said). I'm not an opera or ballet buff, but friend here who are say that Atlanta's are quite weak. When I lived in Dallas white collar folks (like me) regularly took buses because they are prompt, frequent and clean. I tried taking buses here for a year and had to stop because I just didn't have the time to waste waiting 35 minutes between buses.
My point is not that Dallas is terrific, but that they have gotten some things right. I think Atlantans have some things we could learn from them in terms of what they've created without much of a climate to work with.

PS. ASO is top-notch, but not because they recorded digitally first.

[NativeAtlantan]

I think the origin of the drain might be at or near the Deering Rd. Amtrak Station. There is a big water project going on Loring Dr., just off of Deering on the South Side of I-75...that may be where the origin is. I think they're doing another one of those CSO projects but I am not sure.

[MarketsWork]

now if we could just do something like they've been working on with their trinity "river" and calatrava bridge... that project is pretty amazing, as is houston's buffalo bayou redevelopment.

A signature bridge like Calatrava's span in Dallas might be exciting to some, but I would much prefer three more park-type bridges like the new 5th Street Bridge. I believe those would do far more good for Atlanta, and here's why...

Look at the eastward view across the 5th Street Bridge from Georgia Tech into Midtown! As everyone knows, Atlanta has developed largely along a north-south "spine" from Downtown to Buckhead, and what is still missing is significant development east and west of the Peachtree axis. What the 5th Street Bridge has created, in concert with Kim King and Georgia Tech, is a broad and pedestrian-friendly boulevard where people want to walk. It is attractive and inviting -- and it's not on Peachtree.

More bridges like this one, with trees and broad sidewalks in addition to roads, would reconnect the East and West Banks of Atlanta in ways that invite pedestrian traffic and subsequent expansion of commercial, office and residential development. As foundations for new boulevards, these park-like connectors would inspire the types of buildings which cater to pedestrians. Just look at how Georgia Tech is now linked to Technology Square, and picture how similar "foot-parks" might link Home Park with Midtown, and even Centennial Place with "SoNo" across a new Pine Street Bridge. Such "new land" would help restore the fabric torn by the necessary freeway, and would broaden Atlanta's densest development beyond the existing north-south axis.

I believe GDOT has stumbled upon a real winning formula. So rather than imitate another city's monument, I'd build more connective tissue like the 5th Street Bridge.

[dante2308]

Quite honestly, I think Dallas is ill-served by the comparison. It has done more with public arts and transit than Atlanta has. I lived there for awhile and can't take the heat, but in terms of vision, I think we could learn a lot.

Well I didn't make a value judgment. I only implied that they were different and that visiting Dallas is different than visiting Houston which is different than visiting Atlanta. It is unfair to lump them together and betrays the individual value of Atlanta. In terms of tourism in the future, I believe Atlanta is starting to carve out it's own style and way of doing things. The more we continue to do that, the better reason for someone to visit here.

I do not believe that Atlanta should learn from Dallas. I believe that the future of this city should emphasize not drawing from other cities. We have the ingredients of a functional city, the rest is creativity.

[cabasse]

PS. ASO is top-notch, but not because they recorded digitally first.

agreed, and i wasn't trying to suggest that if it came across that way. i was just stating that as a byproduct of their stature. i do think dallas has that "beautification" idea down better than atlanta does, and has been working towards it for a longer period of time. [i thought deep ellum was more like one of the various hoods on the east side, whereas buckhead was more like turtle creek... - PM me if you want to answer that one ;)]

i'll keep ssc at ssc in the future, btw. this is definitely a different crowd.

[Psykomonkee]

How about this idea... It could be the centerpiece of a "Peachtree Creek" Development... Though it's similar to the statue at Woodruff Park, it will be on greater scale.

I call it "LADY GEORGIA and the PHOENIX"

Standing approx. 140-150 feet tall

The base made of stone and surrounded in some type of plant life. Maybe even Kudzu if it can be managed (to prevent the fast growth)

The body of the Angel (Lady Georgia) will be hollow. Made of a Golden plated steel or iron. The Gold should come from Dhalonega (did I spell that right?)

The wings will be made just like the body

The bird (the Phoenix) will be hollow as well. The shell will be made of black cast iron with a red tint to it.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m28/Psykomonkee/LadyGeorgiathePhoenix.jpg

Atlanta does have a history... This represents Atlanta's history.
The Phoenix represents the city itself that was burned to the ground during Sherman's March, only to rise out from the ashes and host the Olympic games less than 120 years later.
The Angel represents the poeple. The spirit of the poeple of Atlanta and of Georgia that picked that city of ashes up and elevated it to glory.

What do you think?

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

Looks pretty cool. I like it.

[micropundit]

:) A working title: The Angel of Avian Proctology"

[keelanfish]

I like some of the ideas that have been presented here regarding iconic and unique structures, monuments, parks, companies, etc. I think it is important to have several icons associated with a great city. I think Atlanta already has some of these, but definately needs more and also needs one predomninant icon that people immediatly think of when hearing the word Atlanta.

I have read through the entire thread and it seems like a recurring focus is on tourism. I'm not sure the focus should be there. Tourism is a plus for cities, and some cities (like Las Vegas) exists almost completely on tourism. I don't think this should be the goal for Atlanta. I think the focus should be on ideas that will make Atlanta a great city for its residents, not for its visitors. I think one common thread that all truely great cities have is the social fabric that make a city work. The often overlooked interactions of homeowners, renters, businesses, public servants, cultural institutions, universities, patrons at the corner pub, etc. is the real city. When you step back and take a look at the complexity of a single day in a city and how everything just works out, it is truely amazing. The overall goal of a city should be to achieve an ever increasing level of density while also ensuring sustainability.

Metropolitan Atlanta is a large city, but only 400,000 +/- of the 5,000,000 +/- people that make up Metropolitan Atlanta actually live in the city limits. With voter turnout being roughly 20% in the city, this means that approximately 1.5% of the total population of Metropolitan Atlanta make the decisions that control the fate of the entire area. The city limits of Atlanta need to expand so that more people are empowered to have a say in their future. Atlanta cannot be a truely great city with only 400,000 residents.

[RobMidtowner]

The city limits of Atlanta need to expand so that more people are empowered to have a say in their future. Atlanta cannot be a truely great city with only 400,000 residents.

Therein lies the difficulty keelan, Atlanta was once a city where everyone lived within the city limits, but everyone abandoned the downtown area when interstates were built. I think the majority of people in the suburbs are just fine using the benefits of the city while not living in it. Fortunately this trend won't continue because growth is finally coming within the city limits.

[atlantaguy]

keelinfish - Sorry, but I disagree. Boston is a great city in almost everyone's opinion - but in this instance we are just like them. Only a very small fraction of the Metro resides within the city there also, and they NEVER get sacked for it. Ever.

[Andrea]

... With voter turnout being roughly 20% in the city, this means that approximately 1.5% of the total population of Metropolitan Atlanta make the decisions that control the fate of the entire area. The city limits of Atlanta need to expand so that more people are empowered to have a say in their future.

I'd have to disagree with this, too. The metro area is by no means controlled by politics inside the Atlanta city limits. Several suburban governments are already much larger than the city of Atlanta. Wealthy new cities like Sandy Springs and Johns Creek will be forces to be reckoned with, and suburban commercial centers like Cumberland/Galleria, Perimeter and Alpharetta easily rival downtown, Buckhead or Midtown. The vast majority of new residents (probably 95% or more) moving to the metro area choose the suburbs over the city, and suburban schools typically outperform city schools by 200-300 points on the SAT.

We'll likely see legislation introduced next month to split off all of Fulton County north of the city limits and create a new Milton County. Estimates suggest this constitutes about 45% of Fulton County's tax base. There's considerable sentiment among folks up there to let Atlanta paddle its own canoe, and rhetoric in recent weeks has fueled that animosity further.

I personally don't think this is a great idea, but that's the reality here. Chances of enlarging Atlanta's city limits, at least to the booming areas to the north, west and east, are zilch. While it's possible the city could annex land in south Fulton I don't know if there's a consensus for that.



http://andreabennett.com/public/various/Milton%20County.jpg

[Fiorenza]

There was a time window recently where Atlanta could have annexed - and they attempted very much to do so - but only succeeded in picking up an area of about 3,000 people. The other areas of south Fulton either plan to incorporate into other municipalities, or remain unincorporated.

Here is a link to a pdf brochure touting the advantages of Atlanta to South Fulton citizens. I'd very much suspect Atlanta taxpayers paid for it.

http://www.taxangle.com/images/AtlantaBenefits.pdf

[AubieTurtle]

Andrea, I really wish that you would be more fine grained with your tax base numbers. Is that 45% of all taxes or 45% of residential property taxes? Because the latter is what usually gets paraded out by the Milton County folks and is incredibly misleading. Of course, they're also leading the people in the "Milton County" expanded footprint (historically Milton County did not extend south of the 'hooch but they have it way down inside the perimeter) to believe that if they become their own county that the MARTA sales tax will go away. That's false too.

If they get their own county, fine, but please don't spread their distorted views on thing without a disclaimer about where the numbers are coming from. Due to the large amount of FUD being spread, you have a duty to let everyone know where the numbers you quote come from so we can judge the motives of those spreading the numbers. Perhaps the 45% figure is of all taxes but without a source, I have to assume that it is just more bluster from the suburban politicans who are more interested in getting their hands on more money and power rather than figure out how to make metro Atlanta work together.

[Fiorenza]

Property taxes are very expensive for the Fulton middle class, and this has caused the Milton issue. The race pandering referred to was just "icing on the cake". No doubt property tax would be less in a Milton county. Fulton county has for several reasons proved to be very inefficient and inequitable.

There may indeed be a good argument for preserving Fulton in present form, but that argument has not been succinctly put forward yet.

[Andrea]

Andrea, I really wish that you would be more fine grained with your tax base numbers. Is that 45% of all taxes or 45% of residential property taxes? Because the latter is what usually gets paraded out by the Milton County folks and is incredibly misleading. Of course, they're also leading the people in the "Milton County" expanded footprint (historically Milton County did not extend south of the 'hooch but they have it way down inside the perimeter) to believe that if they become their own county that the MARTA sales tax will go away. That's false too.

If they get their own county, fine, but please don't spread their distorted views on thing without a disclaimer about where the numbers are coming from. Due to the large amount of FUD being spread, you have a duty to let everyone know where the numbers you quote come from so we can judge the motives of those spreading the numbers. Perhaps the 45% figure is of all taxes but without a source, I have to assume that it is just more bluster from the suburban politicans who are more interested in getting their hands on more money and power rather than figure out how to make metro Atlanta work together.

Aubie, that's a fair request. It's certainly not my intent to spread false information, but I am frankly quite concerned about how this change would affect my beloved city. I believe it could have serious consequences and I don't want it to slide through under the radar.

I'll be the first to say that I'm not a researcher and that I don't personally know what percentage of the tax base will be lost. That's why I said that "estimates suggest" this figure. I first saw it in an editorial in the AJC by a guy from the Fulton County Taxpayers Association, which is adamantly *opposed* to the Milton County proposal. (I'm not aware of what's been paraded out by the Milton County folks, so I'm not getting this from them).

The 45% may be bogus but it's been quoted in a number of other places and I haven't seen anyone object or suggest a different number. I've also discussed it with a few political people who I think of as knowledgeable, and they didn't take issue with it either. Again, I'll readily admit that this doesn't necessarily mean it's correct, but if it's not pretty close I would have expected someone to say, "Whoa, that's way off!" Perhaps someone will do that, and I'll certainly be interested in seeing more accurate numbers if that's the case.

And yes, the new Milton County would have a much larger footprint than the original Milton County. I haven't suggested anything to the contrary. When I first heard about this I assumed they were talking about reinstating the old borders, and I was surprised to learn that they were planning on extending it all the way down to the Atlanta city limits. There was actually an op ed in yesterday's paper by former State Rep. Bob Irvin suggesting that Buckhead should become part of Milton County, too, although it would obviously still be in the city of Atlanta.

[keelanfish]

Assuming the 45% reduction in taxes from Fulton County to the proposed Milton County is correct, does anyone know what the decrease in expense will be? I'm assuming not nearly 45%, so I guess Fulton County is going to be in a hard spot trying to balance their budget. I predict if Milton County does manage to split, Fulton County will have no choice but to cease to exist and get completely drawn into the City of Atlanta. This is one way to increase the size and population of the City.

[whoDean]

A merged city/county government in what is left of Fulton seems like a good idea except South Fulton is still a long way from downtown...

[AubieTurtle]

Assuming the 45% reduction in taxes from Fulton County to the proposed Milton County is correct, does anyone know what the decrease in expense will be? I'm assuming not nearly 45%, so I guess Fulton County is going to be in a hard spot trying to balance their budget. I predict if Milton County does manage to split, Fulton County will have no choice but to cease to exist and get completely drawn into the City of Atlanta. This is one way to increase the size and population of the City.

Fulton County has three big expenses to watch in all of this:

1) MARTA - This one doesn't matter. Milton County would be part of MARTA so it's not an issue. Many of the pro Milton folks are trying to spread rumors that they would get rid of MARTA by becoming their own county but it's simple false.

2) Fulton County jail - It's overcrowded and needs lots of money to expand. Depending on how much of the population is from Milton and how much is from Fulton, this could become much worse or better if Milton split away. While Sandy Springs has seen increases in crime, the rest of north Fulton hasn't seen the inner ring suburb problems yet that you see in Clayton, south Gwinnett, and some parts of Cobb. But Atlanta's crime rate is dropping like a rock. It is possible that when you exclude the crime from north Fulton, even if it is less than the rest of the county, that it would be enough of a reduction in jail population to solve the overcrowding problem. Milton on the other hand would be faced with the problem of finding a place to house their criminals. Some of the other local counties have excess space and some counties like Gwinnett have been shipping their prisioners to south Georgia. The jail is a huge question mark. The worse case scenario is that it turns out that what's left of Fulton County still produces too many inmates for the current facility and the smaller county has to pay for an enlarged facility on its own.

3) Grady - Grady serves as a regional hospital but is paid for by the inner city. The situation with Grady is very unfair and the loss of north Fulton's money into Grady could cause such a crisis that the state is forced to finally deal with the situation instead of ignoring it because the inner city has been on the hook for providing healthcare to the region's poor for so long.

Most of the other issues with spending versus income should be roughly proportional amongst the whole county. What the Milton folks aren't looking at but they should isn't the past but the future. When you look at current trends, Atlanta is getting richer, crime is decreasing, and south Fulton is starting to boom. It is quite possible that they may end up seperating at the moment when the rest of Fulton booms and the north starts to decline.

As far as consolidated government goes, the law that would allow for the recreation of Milton County would likely also allow for the recreation of Campbell County, which would leave Fulton to be mostly the city of Atlanta. That would make consolidation much easier, except for the fact that DeKalb would need to give up the portion of Atlanta "County" that is in DeKalb. The other possibility would be for an Atlanta-DeKalb merger. That, combined with Milton and Campbell counties would pretty much return things back to how they were about a century ago before the western half of DeKalb split off to become Fulton County.

One thing that hasn't been addressed is how the debts and assets of Fulton should be divided up amongst the new counties. Some things like parks or buildings would easily be deeded to whatever county they're located in and and bond issued for their construction/upkeep would be assigned to that county, but you have all kinds of assets like motor pools, bulldozers, and mobile health clinics that aren't so easily divided. There are all kinds of formulas, ranging from the simple based on population, to the complex that incorporates land values, tax revenues, value of county assets, etc that can be used.

There is also the question of if the US Justice Department will block the law. Given that the proposed boundries of the new Milton don't come close to matching those of historic Milton, I expect that a lawsuit will be filed in Federal Court alledging that the seperation is an attempt at segregation. Recent demographic changes may weaken that argument, but if the feds get involved, expect the process to be dragged out for a long time and if it does get approved, that the rules on how assets and debts gets split will be decided by the federal government and not the anti-city Georgia legislature.

[Psykomonkee]

I notice that a lot of people think that we are talking tourists ideas only... Well, the purpose of this thread is not for tourists ideas only. Sure if you have an idea that is tourism based, then please share. But we are asking for you to share ideas that will be a nice addition to Atlanta, for the people of the Atlanta area to enjoy as well as visitors...

For example... The ideas of a long park over top the Downtown Connector or the a development along Peachtree Creek would both not only be enjoyable for visitors, but Atlanta residents alike. I know if it's ever a reality, I'll be there...

Don't get stuck inside the box with the thought that any kind of development that isn't based around improving the traffic situation or urbanizing residential and retail space is a push to place Atlanta at tourist destination status. Being an Orlando is not the focus. But please don't be mistaken, more visitors to the area is still a good thing. Atlanta needs more revenue from visitors. Sure, Atlanta is about business, but giving a reason for visitors to come and spend money in the city will help the quality of life for the people living there. Money spent by visitors can be to the benefit of the residents of the city. Phoenix and San Antonio's focus is not tourism, yet they are among the nations most visited cities. Neither has been overrun by tourist (AND WE DON'T WANT THAT TO BE THE FATE OF ATLANTA), but those tourist dollars do help...

"Why spend your own money, when you can spend someone else's?"
Any thoughts?

[Psykomonkee]

Has anyone ever heard of any plans to redesign the existing concourses and terminals at the airport? (NOT the new international terminal, but the existing stuff).

[john3eblover]

They are planning to build a new terminal in a few years, closer to the new southern runway. And of course the new international terminal

There are always renovations going on in the terminals, but for the most part i think they are pretty nice. T, A, B, C and E are all pretty nice if not very nice. What kind of redisign did you have in mind? Keep in mind, Hartsfield-Jackson works because of its simple and efficient design, not its architectural beauty.

[Turbosloth]

I think they should build about 15 too many gates to enable them to do a major overhaul on the current concourses. I'd pop off the roofs and put in a second story for moving sidewalks, with ramps down to the gate areas. Bangkok's new Suvarnabhumi airport is a lovely example.

For ultra long-range planning, I think they should have used the land for the new consolidated car rental facility for a west side terminal replacement, allowing the current footprint to be backfilled with concourses. Then in the distant future they could put another terminal at the far eastern end at 75 and Aviation Blvd. I wonder how many letters worth of concourses they could fit? Then, how long before the rumblings begin about a sixth runway? Any bets?

[john3eblover]

i dont think there is room for a 6th runway..

[MarketsWork]

There is also the question of if the US Justice Department will block the law. Given that the proposed boundries of the new Milton don't come close to matching those of historic Milton, I expect that a lawsuit will be filed in Federal Court alledging that the seperation is an attempt at segregation. Recent demographic changes may weaken that argument, but if the feds get involved, expect the process to be dragged out for a long time and if it does get approved, that the rules on how assets and debts gets split will be decided by the federal government and not the anti-city Georgia legislature.

All of your points about Fulton County are well thought out. I don't think the jail will be a major issue, since Milton has very little crime. As for Grady, the underclass has turned it into a free sick-call clinic, and I agree that the state will eventually have to step in to settle its funding. But if your last paragraph comes true it would be a public relations disaster...

Escape from racial politics is a major reason behind the reconstitution of Milton County. North Fulton residents get no justice in Fulton's civil courts, where they serve as fatted calves in a redistributionist slaughterhouse. A race-based lawsuit to block Milton would only strengthen the resolve of the separatists. The loss of remaining goodwill would surely come back to haunt Atlanta in the state legislature. And in the end, I would expect the USSC to defer to the state legislature in the matter of incorporating its counties.

I believe the loss of North Fulton, and the attendant loss of North Fulton's tax revenue, might force Atlanta and the remainder of Fulton County to get its fiscal act together. As just one example, Atlanta could funds its annual budget from the proceeds of privatizing the operation of Hartsfield-Jackson Intl Airport, but it would first have to overcome the current spoils/jobs mentality which ensnares its political leadership. I believe it would be better to just let Milton go, and face the real issues sooner rather than later.

[Chris Creech]

All of your points about Fulton County are well thought out. I don't think the jail will be a major issue, since Milton has very little crime. As for Grady, the underclass has turned it into a free sick-call clinic, and I agree that the state will eventually have to step in to settle its funding. But if your last paragraph comes true it would be a public relations disaster...

Escape from racial politics is a major reason behind the reconstitution of Milton County. North Fulton residents get no justice in Fulton's civil courts, where they serve as fatted calves in a redistributionist slaughterhouse. A race-based lawsuit to block Milton would only strengthen the resolve of the separatists. The loss of remaining goodwill would surely come back to haunt Atlanta in the state legislature. And in the end, I would expect the USSC to defer to the state legislature in the matter of incorporating its counties.

I believe the loss of North Fulton, and the attendant loss of North Fulton's tax revenue, might force Atlanta and the remainder of Fulton County to get its fiscal act together. As just one example, Atlanta could funds its annual budget from the proceeds of privatizing the operation of Hartsfield-Jackson Intl Airport, but it would first have to overcome the current spoils/jobs mentality which ensnares its political leadership. I believe it would be better to just let Milton go, and face the real issues sooner rather than later.

:speech: :gaah:

[AubieTurtle]

As just one example, Atlanta could funds its annual budget from the proceeds of privatizing the operation of Hartsfield-Jackson Intl Airport, but it would first have to overcome the current spoils/jobs mentality which ensnares its political leadership. I believe it would be better to just let Milton go, and face the real issues sooner rather than later.

Sigh... where do you get some of this stuff? Privatization of the airport was something the republicans talked about non-stop before they took power. They knew that it was impossible because the FAA would require approval from the two largest airlines at the airport (Delta and Airtran) both of whom said no way, they were quite happy with the extremely low landing fees and operating costs at the airport. Once they got power, they didn't do a single thing to try to make it happen and you don't hear about it anymore. Why? Because it was a made up wedge non-issue that they knew no one in the aviation industry really wanted but it played well to the folks in the sticks (and apparently some others too).

Given the size of the airport and its operations, you can expect there to be some mistakes made and some graff (which is never ok but you can only expect to minimize it not eliminate it, be it public or private industry) but by almost any measure, the airport is very well run. If Delta and AirTran are against privatization, you've got to ask yourself, who is in the best positon to decide that: the businesses whose livelyhood rest on a well run airport or the state legislature full of hundreds of small time politicians all of whom would love the chance to get their fingers in the pie when awarding contracts to private companies? I'm sure you can come up with a small example here and there of problems (the duty free shop contract comes to mind) but in the overall scale of the airport, Delta and AirTran have made their business based decision on the subject well known and I would think you of all people would respect their business based decision.

I think you are missing my point on the jail. It isn't that Milton would be in trouble with the jail, it is that Fulton could be. In all of this, the details are what matters so dismissive statements like it doesn't matter because crime is low doesn't pay any attention to things like boundry conditions that are costly when they are crossed (the difference between going from 70% capacity to 90% capacity is much different from going from 90% to 110% even though each is only an additional 20%). The jail issue is much more likely to be a negative for Fulton and a positive for Milton but since we don't have the appropriate details, it's impossible to say. If the jail is currently about 110% capacity and 20% of the jail capacity comes from Milton, that puts the population back down to 90%, which solves Fulton's problem. That would be a positive. But if it is at 150% and Milton is responsible for 40% of the capacity at the jail, that still leaves the jail over capacity and in need of expensive expansion. I don't think either one of us has enough facts on this to make an informed prediction. Either way, Milton eventually has to build some sort of facility because while they can contract out to other jails in the short term, it is very cost ineffective to pay to have prisoners transported all over the region (and possibly the state) for a very long time. Sandy Springs is already finding this out with the cost of putting their prisoners in the DeKalb County jail.

As far as racial politics goes, the Justice Department has interfered quite a bit in the workings of the South over the years and it really hasn't slowed down that much in recent years. I think the state of Georgia would have a much better argument if the bill to create the new Milton county restricted it to the historic boundries of Milton and also recreated Campbell county (the only other county is Georgia history to disappear). If they do that, they have a much better argument that this is about undoing a past mistake and not about creating seperate white and black dominated areas. With the recent changes in the makeup of the USCS, who knows how they would look at it but there is plenty of precident out there for them to overrule the state. None of the justices live in what would become Milton county so the level of desire of the folks living there is completely irrelivent to the legal standing. It wasn't that long ago that the federal courts overturned the results of a primary election for governor in the state of Alabama because of crossover voters. That was quite a flimsy arument in my opinion but it apparently was strong enough for the feds to step in. It was also not that long ago that in one Alabama community everyone got seven votes instead of one, once again through court orders from the federal government trying to deal with racial issues. Don't think that they see Georgia as being any different from Alabama.

I think we can all agree that Grady is a tremendous mess. If one good thing comes out of all of this, it is that the mess will finally have to be dealt with as it can't go on like this forever. I think the past has shown that centralizing social services is a bad solution. The best thing would be for the poor to get treatment in their own communities. One thing that Fulton has been extremely bad about is taking in all of the social ills of the region and sticking the county taxpayers with the bill. This isn't just Grady, it is also about 90% of the region's homeless shelters being located in downtown Atlanta where less than 0.5% of the population lives. It's about seniors in surrounding counties getting up in arms because Fulton has started to charge them a nominal fee for the use of Fulton senior centers that their home counties don't have. While one might think that this situation will cause many of these services to be eliminated, what is more likely is that Fulton will have to become much more stingy about who gets to use county services (which they should have been all along) and the other counties are going to feel pressure to start offering these services. Already many of the inner ring counties are finding that they can't export their homeless fast enough to Atlanta and are being forced to deal with the problem by opening their own shelters. Given the ongoing gentrification in central Fulton, people wanting Fulton's services won't be able to simply move into the county so they're going to have to get their counties to provide what they've been getting from Fulton all this time.

The simple fact about social services is that they will always attract people from outside of the area to use them. MARTA for example is required by the federal government though an unfunded mandate to provide extensive paratransit services. MARTA is restricted by the fed on the fare for these services ($3.50) when it costs MARTA ten times that much to provide the door to door service to the severely disabled. But if you are one of the people who needs that service and you don't live in a city that provides it, what are you going to do? You move to the city that offers the service, thus damaging the budget of the agency that was providing that service to the local population.

Let's face it, things are changing rapidly around here and really the issue of Milton is in the long run unimportant to how things turn out. Roswell is already seeing some of the effects of inner ring suburban decay and it will spread just like it has in Cobb, Gwinnett, and Clayton. These areas are going to have to deal with the issues that use to be strictly issues of the inner city. Drawing imaginary lines around themselves isn't not going to save them. Just like Gwinnett use to be almost all white but in a few years will have no race with a majority, the same future faces "Milton". Of course they may think that they are different, but so did Gwinnett. Regardless of what label is on what piece of land, these problems are going to face everyone and most of these govenments aren't going to see it coming because they're based on the idea that they can draw a line around themselves and keep time from moving forward. My point is, if this forces Fulton to stop providing regional services on the back of Fulton county taxpayers, those services, whether you like them or not, are likely to end up in the budgets of all of the metro counties. That's a much fairer and better system for everyone, but almost certainly not what the folks in the other counties had in mind, especially not the folks in the new Milton.

[MarketsWork]

Sigh... where do you get some of this stuff? Privatization of the airport was something the republicans talked about non-stop before they took power. They knew that it was impossible because the FAA would require approval from the two largest airlines at the airport (Delta and Airtran) both of whom said no way, they were quite happy with the extremely low landing fees and operating costs at the airport. Once they got power, they didn't do a single thing to try to make it happen and you don't hear about it anymore. Why? Because it was a made up wedge non-issue that they knew no one in the aviation industry really wanted but it played well to the folks in the sticks (and apparently some others too).

Given the size of the airport and its operations, you can expect there to be some mistakes made and some graff (which is never ok but you can only expect to minimize it not eliminate it, be it public or private industry) but by almost any measure, the airport is very well run. If Delta and AirTran are against privatization, you've got to ask yourself, who is in the best positon to decide that: the businesses whose livelyhood rest on a well run airport or the state legislature full of hundreds of small time politicians all of whom would love the chance to get their fingers in the pie when awarding contracts to private companies? I'm sure you can come up with a small example here and there of problems (the duty free shop contract comes to mind) but in the overall scale of the airport, Delta and AirTran have made their business based decision on the subject well known and I would think you of all people would respect their business based decision.

Your condescending sigh notwithstanding, privatizing airport operations would be a goldmine for the City of Atlanta, albeit a bust for Atlanta politicians. What Delta and AirTran say publicly about the idea doesn't really matter; as users of the facility, they have made their peace with current management and would easily come to terms with any new regime. Competent businesses understand that gouging the goose threatens its eggs, so I doubt the airlines' costs would increase dangerously. And I wouldn't expect either airline to risk displeasing their public landlord by backing a separate arrangement.

I will give Atlanta credit for cleaning up some of the corruption linked to prior airport concessions. Just a few years ago, there were a handful of sub-lessors between the City and each of the actual tenant concessionaires. That crooked, third-world arrangement made a lot of political cronies rich -- and drove retail prices through the roof. The worst abuses (at least the most publicized ones) might have been fixed, but the airport still remains booty for a system of political spoils and graft. Just check some of the leases and follow their connections.

Opinions aside, Hartsfield-Jackson is the City of Atlanta's most valuable asset. I believe the public good -- and the City's coffers -- would be served best if the airport were managed in private hands.

[Andrea]

North Fulton residents get no justice in Fulton's civil courts, where they serve as fatted calves in a redistributionist slaughterhouse.

I can tell you for an absolute fact that that is not true at all. You're talking pure myth. Fulton County is well known as a defendant-oriented venue. Compare verdicts in Fulton to those from DeKalb, Clayton or Gwinnett and you'll see what I mean.

[ThrashATL]

i dont think there is room for a 6th runway..


Actually there is, but it would require the demolition of Hapeville...

[Fiorenza]

Those were good comments regarding Fulton budget issues. I kinda suspect Milton/Campbell counties would be left holding the bag somewhat as regards Grady etc.

If north and south Fulton split off, Atlanta should have a city-county consolidation and eliminate Fulton as a jurisdiction. Obviously some parts of Atlanta would be in Dekalb and possibly Milton, but the remainder would do well to consolidate.

[whoDean]

Milton definitely should NOT include any area inside the perimeter.

[atlantaguy]

My boss lives in Sandy Springs inside the Perimeter. Same street for 20+ years - I'll ask her what the buzz is in her neighborhood on this whole thing.

What I find funny is all the people in far North Fulton that think Milton forming will automatically do away with the MARTA tax! Guess again!

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

I can tell you for an absolute fact that that is not true at all. You're talking pure myth. Fulton County is well known as a defendant-oriented venue. Compare verdicts in Fulton to those from DeKalb, Clayton or Gwinnett and you'll see what I mean.

No it's not myth. I have to agree with Marketworks that Fulton is a jackpot for plaintiffs compared with Gwinnett and Cobb and other northern counties--though comparable with Clayton and Dekalb, it's not even close to Gwinnett. And Cobb is one of the worst places in Georgia for a plaintiff. Plaintiff's awards in Fulton tend to be higher than in other places. Believe me, there are about ten counties that plaintiff's lawyers want to file at in this state, some of which are: Fulton, Chatham (Savannah), Dekalb, Clayton, Richmond (Augusta), Bibb (Macon), etc.

But be honest, Marketwatch, these are mostly civil suits involving corporations and insurance companies, not individual persons.

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

[QUOTE=MarketsWork;2503927]
Escape from racial politics is a major reason behind the reconstitution of Milton County. North Fulton residents get no justice in Fulton's civil courts, where they serve as fatted calves in a redistributionist slaughterhouse. A race-based lawsuit to block Milton would only strengthen the resolve of the separatists. The loss of remaining goodwill would surely come back to haunt Atlanta in the state legislature. And in the end, I would expect the USSC to defer to the state legislature in the matter of incorporating its counties.
[QUOTE]

A race-based lawsuit? Everything about the creation of Milton seems to be oozing with race-based thoughts. You know, the people in Alpharetta and Sandy Springs seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. I don't understand this obsession with breaking away from Fulton (i.e. Atlanta). It's ridiculous, and I promise you, this will come back to haunt North Fulton. I even read in Sunday's paper that some in Buckhead want Milton extended all the way down. Well, why don't we just do what the Republicans really want---everything north of I-20 is Milton and everything south of I-20 is Fulton. That's what they want, though they're not saying it.....:shrug:

[Fiorenza]

What I hear from my North Fulton clients/contacts of all races is, that the primary problem is property taxes -- not race. Admittedly they're mostly Republicans. But this ain't 1955.

The property taxes on my house in Duluth (Gwinnett) is 1/3 or less what they would be in Fulton.

[MarketsWork]

But be honest, Marketwatch, these are mostly civil suits involving corporations and insurance companies, not individual persons.

Of course -- but almost all liability lawsuits involve insurance companies, since individuals would be financially destroyed if they didn't spread their risks around. But financial targets in high-risk jurisdictions pay higher insurance premiums than they would in more favorable climates. And no matter how much liability insurance they purchase, there is always the haunting threat that a shock verdict from an envious jury will exceed their coverage limits.