[Nutterbug]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2006/12/04/bc-gay-travel.html

Vancouver tops for gay tourism
Last Updated: Monday, December 4, 2006 | 9:58 AM PT
CBC News

Vancouver has been named Canada's top destination for gay tourists, beating out Montreal and Toronto for the first time.

The top ranking was the result of an international survey conducted by Community Marketing of San Francisco.

Gay visitors are attracted by welcoming attitudes, as well as the scenery.Gay visitors are attracted by welcoming attitudes, as well as the scenery.
(CBC)

Taylore Darnel owns Belles and Balls, which organizes gay weddings. She said clients from the U.S. and other countries find Vancouver a welcoming place.

Visitors appreciate "being able to walk down the street hand in hand, being able to walk on the beach and have their arms around each other," she said, "particularly those who come from south of the Mason-Dixon line, where even looking at each other sidewise on the street is not a good thing to do."

Darnel also said a few of her American and Asian clients loved the city so much, they've moved to Vancouver.

The head of Tourism Vancouver says aggressive marketing aimed at the gay community is paying off. Rick Antonson said hotels and resorts have been offering special packages for the gay traveller.

Demographic studies show the gay population has a large amount of disposable income, making gays desirable customers. Gay travellers spend an estimated $65 billion a year in North America alone.

[rgalston]

Fabulous news!

[Archiseek]

simply fabulous sweetie

[Rusty van Reddick]

Toronto and Montreal have much better gay club/bar scenes than Vancouver does. Church St can be a sad place sometimes, but Davie is just decrepit. Add to this the fact that the only time I've really been attacked (verbally, but still) for being from "redneck Calgary" in Vancouver was in a gay bar- and it's happened EVERY SINGLE TIME I've gone to Vancouver and been asked where I was from. The first time I ever went to Vancouver was 1984, when I was in college, and when I innnocently said I was American (originally the case for me, and I was in college in Portland), I got loud lecture from the fucking bartender - "how could you people elect Reagan?!?!" The jerkoff didn't even ask if I supported Reagan first, he just layed into me about how evil all Americans were. Exactly like what happens now that I live in Calgary.

Worst, most unwelcoming gay scene ever. The only way you can be respected is if you renounce wherever you're from, say it's shit, and avow eternal allegiance to Vancouver and only Vancouver in all its perfection.

[LeftCoaster]

thats not just the gay scene, we ask that you renounce all allegiances when in vancouver... its just the way we are.

[Rusty van Reddick]

thats not just the gay scene, we ask that you renounce all allegiances when in vancouver... its just the way we are.

I hate to say this, but I don't think people in Vancouver have any idea how much the rest of the country hates you. And it's not because Vancouver's beautiful and is not jealousy. It's because of precisely the smug attitude that you are (I hope) satirizing.

[fishy]

^
Thats based on your experience, so why generalize?

[LeftCoaster]

I was kidding there of course, and we definetly have an idea of how much the rest of the country hates us (the rest of the country being calgary), we just dont give a shit... Vancouver is better and we know it.

[Greco Roman]

simply fabulous sweetie

:jester: :haha: :jester: :haha: :jester: :haha: :jester:

[Rusty van Reddick]

I was kidding there of course, and we definetly have an idea of how much the rest of the country hates us (the rest of the country being calgary), we just dont give a shit... Vancouver is better and we know it.

You don't give a shit about spelling either, apparently.

[Rusty van Reddick]

^
Thats based on your experience, so why generalize?

Wow- my experience? Has ANYBODY ever found Vancouverites to be anything but unfriendly and arrogant, happy to demean wherever visitors are from because wherever that is, isn't Vancouver?

[IntotheWest]

Furry - I'm not gay, but have been down to Davie's a few times (during sunlight hours however), and never had a bad experience.

I like Hamburger Mary's (and I'm sure there was another hamburger place on or close to Davie's), bought my wine at Marquis (I was there long-term, so bringing from cheaper-and-better-selection AB wasn't an option), and even made the "mistake" of having breakfast at Sugar Daddy's...turned out to be a great breaky, just didn't have crayons for the kids :-)


I think from other posts I've read of yours, 1984 is not the last time you were in Van...was that just one bad experience, or has it been consistently bad?

Leftcoaster - you're simply displaying the smug attitude Furry is talking about.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Furry - I think from other posts I've read of yours, 1984 is not the last time you were in Van...was that just one bad experience, or has it been consistently bad?

Lemme clarify- there are many things I love about Vancouver and I always have a good time when I'm there. I don't mean to diss the city in toto. There are two insufferable things, however, that always happen to me. One is that, as a gay man, I pop into Pumpjack or wherever and strike up a conversation and after the "where are you from," when I say "Calgary," I get outrageous insulting disrespect- like, "OH my GOD I would never set FOOT in Alberta." WHO DOES THIS? Who speaks to tourists this way? I've never encountered this sort of extreme rudeness anywhere in the world. It BUGS. And as I say, it happens every visit to Vancouver. Now if I said, "unfortunately I'm stuck in hell in Calgary but can't wait to move to Vancouver," which is indeed the sentiment of a lot of people, then yeah, I'm sure I'd be welcome, but since I am unrepentant about being in Calgary (and even, shockers, like living here), I get shit for it.

The second thing- outside of the gay village, I actually don't get much disrespect about being from Calgary, and that's nice, but what does happen is I hear a lot of hate about Toronto, which was my first home in Canada and which I love. Same theme as in the gay bars, different city- "Where are you from?" "Toronto." "Oh, I HATE Toronto." No lie, this happened to my partner. It can really ruin a trip.

All that being said- I was in Van last July and we had a great time, no disrespect at all, BUT we didn't make it to the gay village, just Mt Pleasant and Kits.

Davie has its sad spots, IntoWest, lousy with street kids and such, that's all. It does have some places worth being but they tend towards the Yaletown and Denman sides, in my experience.

[agrant]

Smug - irritatingly pleased with oneself; self-satisfied.

I've been called worse. :D

[sync]

where are you from," when I say "Calgary," I get outrageous insulting disrespect- like, "OH my GOD I would never set FOOT in Alberta."

yep, happens to me every time.

usually followed by, "WHY WOULD YOU LIVE THERE?" and "OMG WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FIGURE IT OUT AND MOVE TO A REAL CITY" which i assume to mean vancouver.

even when i lived there and people would ask where i came from and i'd say alberta they'd reply with "wow, you finally figured it out, hey?""

frankly, it's one of the reasons i finally left vancouver.

[Coldrsx]

yep, happens to me every time.

usually followed by, "WHY WOULD YOU LIVE THERE?" and "OMG WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FIGURE IT OUT AND MOVE TO A REAL CITY" which i assume to mean vancouver.

even when i lived there and people would ask where i came from and i'd say alberta they'd reply with "wow, you finally figured it out, hey?""

frankly, it's one of the reasons i finally left vancouver.

yup, same idea for Edmonton:

"boring, cold, only white people, cold, dirty, no culture, no anything"

....umm....ok

[SHOFEAR]

Well, this explains Coldrsx's bi-weekly trip to Vancouver.

[Coldrsx]

Well, this explains Coldrsx's bi-weekly trip to Vancouver.


"bi weekly"


zing zing

[SpongeG]

maybe people can learn from bad tourist experiences

most of the people I know (gay) are from everywhere but Vancouver - so they do diss other places - usually the ones they left behind - its not to be superior just to be funny perhaps - most gay people i know have had horrible experiences in the past and are more than glad to get away from places that caused them pain...

Davie street and the gay scene in Vancouver is really sad if you are into clubbing and bar hopping - but most str8 bars in Vancouver are gay friendly for the most part

but Vancouver does have a active community and there are many groups, sport things etc to join - something a lot of cities perhaps don't have

[IntotheWest]

"where are you from," when I say "Calgary," I get outrageous insulting disrespect- like, "OH my GOD I would never set FOOT in Alberta." WHO DOES THIS? Who speaks to tourists this way?

Fair enough, I thought you were restricting that to the gay neighbourhood :)

Yes, as I was travelling there weekly for two years, I had the same reaction even from the hotel, restaurant, cabbies, and airport staff - people that should know how to talk to tourists...however, I just figured that had something to do with just Calgary and was typically ALWAYS weather related (starting in September, and lasting until May - "So, is it cold in Calgary?"...most common question).

[aastra]

I've lived in southwestern BC my whole life and Vancouver proper for about ten years and I honestly don't think I've ever heard any legitimate Toronto bashing. I've heard people try to bash Toronto -- because we're Canadians and (apparently) we're all supposed to love bashing Toronto in a lighthearted sort of way -- but it just comes across as obligatory and inauthentic.

[Nutterbug]

I've lived in southwestern BC my whole life and Vancouver proper for about ten years and I honestly don't think I've ever heard any legitimate Toronto bashing. I've heard people try to bash Toronto -- because we're Canadians and (apparently) we're all supposed to love bashing Toronto in a lighthearted sort of way -- but it just comes across as obligatory and inauthentic.
Most of it is in the form of Leafs bashing, isn't it?

[aastra]

Hasn't been any need to bash the Leafs in my lifetime.

Seriously, there can be bashing related to sports teams, you're right. But I don't really consider that to be genuine bashing of the city itself. You can bash Toronto one night and use the exact same terms to bash Edmonton or Montreal the next. Anyway, we all worshipped at the altar of the Blue Jays for several years. That should cancel out any dumping we might do on the Leafs.

[Jay in Cowtown]

Whenever someone from Vancouver starts pissing you off... just tell them how much you love Seattle, and how much better a city than Vancouver it is... that'll get the ball rolling!!!

[Nutterbug]

Whenever someone from Vancouver starts pissing you off... just tell them how much you love Seattle, and how much better a city than Vancouver it is... that'll get the ball rolling!!!
Then you'll be hard pressed to back it up with reasons.

[renthefinn]

I've never liked the Blue Jays, baseball died with the expos!

[subdude]

I hate to say this, but I don't think people in Vancouver have any idea how much the rest of the country hates you. And it's not because Vancouver's beautiful and is not jealousy. It's because of precisely the smug attitude that you are (I hope) satirizing.

furrycanuck, didn't your mother ever tell you if you don't have anything nice to say just shut the hell up?

[bc2mb]

there's some truth to what's being discussed here...

anyone say attitude problem? in the vancouver gay scene. just head over to celebrities or odyssey and it's like a room full of manqueins, paralyzed, standing around in their latest prada/louis vuitton/whatever, judging each other.. there's a bit of this present in every gay scene I admit, but it's far worse in vancouver than anywhere else I've seen.

everytime I go back I am shocked because I keep forgetting what it was like.

[agrant]

A lot of so called hetero clubs are like that too. It's not exclusive to the gay scene. That's why I hate going out to those places. They're just crowded meat markets. Obviously a lot of people are into that, and owners are making bucks. I prefer more of a casual bar type place, somewhere you can actually hear the other person.

[G-Slice]

Honestly anywhere east of downtown is a million times better for gay clubbing than Davie. I don't want to recommend anything specific since I have been away for three months but when I left Honey and the Columbia were still pretty hopping. Mixed to be sure, but I'll take a 30/70 gay/straight split over the Odyssey any day.

[Urban Zombie®]

Then you'll be hard pressed to back it up with reasons.

Well, Seattleites have the distinction of weaving all of their furniture and clothing out of pubes--which is the reason why no city on earth can compete with it! :tup:

[SpongeG]

you know you go to any gay scene and its the same no matter where

[RWin]

furrycanuck, didn't your mother ever tell you if you don't have anything nice to say just shut the hell up?

Now that wasn't a very nice thing to say.

[pyropius]

... when I say "Calgary," I get outrageous insulting disrespect- like, "OH my GOD I would never set FOOT in Alberta." WHO DOES THIS? Who speaks to tourists this way? ...

Yet another reason how AB is the TX of Canada. :) I get this all the time now that I've moved from TX to Chicago.

[smasher000]

I hate to say this, but I don't think people in Vancouver have any idea how much the rest of the country hates you. And it's not because Vancouver's beautiful and is not jealousy. It's because of precisely the smug attitude that you are (I hope) satirizing.

LMFAO, noob! You just hate your life so much that you have to disrespect other cities to make you feel better about your own shitty life. Asswipe.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Yet another reason how AB is the TX of Canada. :) I get this all the time now that I've moved from TX to Chicago.

When people tell me that I live in the Houston of Canada, I just bombard them with facts about Houston (about its arts scene, huge Vietnamese community, Montrose, Rice University) and thank them.

Dallas- not so much, I don't really know anything about Dallas.

[smasher000]

Isn't toronto known for it's gay community?

[Rusty van Reddick]

LMFAO, noob! You just hate your life so much that you have to disrespect other cities to make you feel better about your own shitty life. Asswipe.

Noob?

I think I'm a pretty good authority to assess how friendly Vancouver is to gay tourists. It's only friendly if you get down on your knees and give the entire city a symbolic blow job, and frankly, gay men in Vancouver are (for the most part) so damned ugly- all pigeon-chested WASPs- that even giving 2 million hummers doesn't appeal to me.

Now, doing the same in Barcelona...

[smasher000]

You're so f*cking bias! YOU'VE PROBABLY ONLY BEEN TO VANCOUVER ONCE. Even though you had a bad experience in Vancouver with one person, there are about 2,199,999 others that may NOT be like the one you talked to. The guy that you thought was rude from Calgary probably was rude to you because of the way you presented yourself. It had nothing to do with your sexual orientation. And don't call people ugly. Right now I'm being rude to you because of the things you are saying. You are so friggen shallow.

[SpongeG]

Isn't toronto known for it's gay community?

yes - its pride parade is about 3x the size of Vancouvers - not to mention it has many more clubs, bars, pubs, bookshops, etc.

[Greco Roman]

I don't quite know what to say about this topic, but carry on.

[baggab]

Lemme clarify- there are many things I love about Vancouver and I always have a good time when I'm there. I don't mean to diss the city in toto. There are two insufferable things, however, that always happen to me. One is that, as a gay man, I pop into Pumpjack or wherever and strike up a conversation and after the "where are you from," when I say "Calgary," I get outrageous insulting disrespect- like, "OH my GOD I would never set FOOT in Alberta." WHO DOES THIS? Who speaks to tourists this way? I've never encountered this sort of extreme rudeness anywhere in the world. It BUGS. And as I say, it happens every visit to Vancouver. Now if I said, "unfortunately I'm stuck in hell in Calgary but can't wait to move to Vancouver," which is indeed the sentiment of a lot of people, then yeah, I'm sure I'd be welcome, but since I am unrepentant about being in Calgary (and even, shockers, like living here), I get shit for it.

The second thing- outside of the gay village, I actually don't get much disrespect about being from Calgary, and that's nice, but what does happen is I hear a lot of hate about Toronto, which was my first home in Canada and which I love. Same theme as in the gay bars, different city- "Where are you from?" "Toronto." "Oh, I HATE Toronto." No lie, this happened to my partner. It can really ruin a trip.

All that being said- I was in Van last July and we had a great time, no disrespect at all, BUT we didn't make it to the gay village, just Mt Pleasant and Kits.

Davie has its sad spots, IntoWest, lousy with street kids and such, that's all. It does have some places worth being but they tend towards the Yaletown and Denman sides, in my experience.

Well pretty much all of Canada hates Toronto/Ontario. That's the birth right we've all had. With no real reason :).

I personally don't like Calgary or Alberta as a whole thou and reasons are usually enviromental reasons. I wouldn't live in Saskatchewan or Manitoba, it's just that I won't enjoy the weather. We have more neutral feelings to the praries thou... For Alberta, it's probably because of the different Values and Enviromental damage from the Oil Sands. Thou, I don't think anyone HATES alberta, they just don't like the province as a whole. Just don't take people's preferance as a offense.

I always ask people visiting why they come to Vancouver thou, I tell them there's nothing special here. I know why I like it. I'll go scuba diving one week then snowboarding and various other outdoor activities. I think thou most people don't get to enjoy much of the more interesting parts of Vancouver. You have to realize that Vancouver nightlife isn't paticular tailored to one culture. You have a specific type in Downtown, Commercial+Broadway, Richmond and I'm sure other sub cultures if you know where to find them. I find it paticularly difficult to find all these little things if you don't know people.

Those people that automatically thinks you supported Reagon well usually those people are drama queens. You'll find those types of people everywhere. Most people are generally don't have much of a opinion here.

In the end, coming from a Vancouverite, There really is only 2 places in Canada I'd live in. That's Montreal and Vancouver... I'll take on the cold to take in a totally different culture.

[freeweed]

You're so f*cking bias! YOU'VE PROBABLY ONLY BEEN TO VANCOUVER ONCE. Even though you had a bad experience in Vancouver with one person, there are about 2,199,999 others that may NOT be like the one you talked to. The guy that you thought was rude from Calgary probably was rude to you because of the way you presented yourself. It had nothing to do with your sexual orientation. And don't call people ugly. Right now I'm being rude to you because of the things you are saying. You are so friggen shallow.

Just thought I'd point out the irony of *'ing out a "naughty" word, then proceeding to type just about the rudest post possible. :tup:

[freeweed]

furry, I've noticed this before when we talk about other cities, and especially in response to your posts - I think people in many other cities simply don't get around as much, or haven't in their lives so far, and really don't appreciate what you're saying.

I noticed this growing up in Winnipeg (everyone was born there and will likely die there), visiting Toronto, and when meeting pretty much anyone from Vancouver or Victoria - they haven't been around as much, on average, and get incredibly incensed the minute you say the slightest negative thing about their city, and proceed to tell you how many times you've never visited.

I think we get spoiled in Calgary as EVERYONE seems to be from somewhere else, and we're all constantly going back home to visit, or for work, or whatever. It astounds me the reaction I get when I tell people I'm from Calgary - "OMG YOU GUYS ARE ALL REDNECKS WHO VOTED REFORM". When I ask them how long it's been since they've actually BEEN to Calgary... let's just say an abnormally high number of people are *proud* that they never visit here.

I don't get it. We in Calgary all make the same nasty jokes - Winnipeg is the arctic, Toronto is full of itself, Montreal is poutineland - but I've NEVER seen people in Calgary express such sheer hatred as I see in the reverse direction.

That being said, I've always been treated well when visiting Vancouver, as long as I don't tell people where I'm from. Same applies to a lot of Canadian cities - all I have to do is show my driver's license, and some nitwit goes on a rant about Calgary. It's like I personally beat him up and stole his milk money to finance my ranch or something. Can't comment about the gay scene specifically, but I think prejudice crosses all boundaries here.

Maybe Calgary is like Canada's white urban male - you can insult him all you want and it's still PC :P

[Greco Roman]

Uh oh; I sense a "my city/province is better than your city/province because".........(insert some superficial, nasty, childish reasons here). Seriously, arn't you all getting sick of these useless comparison arguments? I know I am.
No matter what the issue, can't we all just put the arrogance and prejudice aside and get the f*ck along????????????

[smasher000]

I think we all have a flare for a pint drama. Dare I say it? =D

[Taller Better]

"Community Marketing of San Francisco"?? What the hell is that?
I am familiar with the gay scene in Vancouver. This "study" is not
even close to being true. Not even in the right ballpark. I won't get
into it because I get angry thinking of the way that people from here
get treated when they go to the gay community in Vancouver. There
are more people like:

[QUOTE=baggab]Well pretty much all of Canada hates Toronto/Ontario. That's the birth right we've all had. With no real reason :).QUOTE]

in the gay scene of Vancouver than you could even BEGIN to imagine.

[Hardhatdan]

Cock, Balls.

This post seems about as relevant as anything else here.

[Kilgore Trout]

i love vancouver but i have to agree with furrycanuck about the smugness -- it's the one thing i really hate about the city. my girlfriend, who lived in vancouver for seven years, not only agrees with me, but is even more vehement in her dislike of this particular civic trait.

that doesn't stop me from enjoying the city when i visit, however.

[itom 987]

Folks, please keep the discussion civil.

[ssiguy]

Vancouver's gay community isn't near as mature as Tor/Mon. It is completly ghettoized. I find the people quite plasticy and alouf.
Davie St. is a complete dump with a gay bar scene not even in the same league as Tor/Mon where you feel comfortable anywhere unlike Vancouver where it is just the WestEnd and Commericial.
That said Vancouver is the mecca of gay life in western Canada.

[LeftCoaster]

This is a dumb argument... its not like anyone in Vancouver complains when they hear about "the pioneer spirit in Calgary or the can do attitude" or any thing else like that. It happens with every city so furrny canuck just live with it. Its not like when I tell people im from Vancouver they dont say "ohhh it rains alot there, that must suck" It happens all the time, but i dont give a shit, cause I love Vancouver regardless of what people say about it, as im sure you feel the same way about calgary.

And as for your post regarding my spelling... are you serious? i misspell one word and you make fun of my spelling, are you kidding me? thats the lamest thing i have ever seen. I dont know about you, but i dont make multiple drafts and proofread my posts on skyscraperpage.com.

[Delirium]

"Community Marketing of San Francisco"?? What the hell is that?
I am familiar with the gay scene in Vancouver. This "study" is not
even close to being true. Not even in the right ballpark. I won't get
into it because I get angry thinking of the way that people from here
get treated when they go to the gay community in Vancouver. There
are more people like:

in the gay scene of Vancouver than you could even BEGIN to imagine.

The study was conducted by Community Marketing Inc., a San Francisco-based firm that conducts an annual survey of tourism trends in the U.S. gay and lesbian community. About 7,500 people responded to the online travel survey.
CMI has taken online travel surveys for 11 years. Last year, Canada was the No. 1 destination, edging out Europe for the first time. In the 2006 survey, Canada is first again, ahead of Mexico in second place and the United Kingdom in third. Vancouver placed 1st followed by Montreal then Toronto.

full article in the globe:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20061205.BCTOURISM05/TPStory/TPNational/BritishColumbia/

i'm not sure how else you could get a truer representation of people's opinion than asking them to fill out a random survey. clearly some people do place vancouver ahead of TO and Montreal - regardless of our club scene or smug attitude.

[agrant]

Smug... Well, we can't be perfect can we? :D

[Rusty van Reddick]

i'm not sure how else you could get a truer representation of people's opinion than asking them to fill out a random survey. clearly some people do place vancouver ahead of TO and Montreal - regardless of our club scene or smug attitude.

Getting a probability sample of gay/lesbian people (never mind gay/lesbian tourists) is impossible. No sampling frame means no probability sample. So this was not a random sample; it was, likely, a convenience sample drawn on San Franciscans based on the higher-than-average likelihood that the respondent was gay (and a traveler). There are too many biases to discuss here but one is the pure affinity that SF'ers have for Vancouver (over other Canadian cities)- this has to do with relative proximity as well as climate and Van's very good marketing. That's nothing against Van, but the fact is this survey likely only polled Americans. If it had polled people from Canada, it would have resulted in a different finding, I think.

[Taller Better]

"online survey". Do we know any more of this? Is it a section in their website where people can sit all day and fill out the survey 300 times because they are homers and want their city to "Win"? Online surveys are the least genuine, because of the lack of controls. Telephone surveys are better, because the same person cannot respond over and over and over again, but they cost money. Online polls, to my mind, are no different than
those "Rate the Skyline" polls over on SSC. Would anyone in their right mind believe those polls knowing that ambitious teenagers have spent days creating new profiles to vote "10" for their city, and "3 or less" for everyone else's city! LOL!

[Taller Better]

There was a blurb in today's Globe about this poll. Apparently, Vancouver was not voted the best place in Canada for gay travel, but in the entire world! Not San Francisco, Amsterdam, London, New York, Berlin, Sydney etc...
but Vancouver for the entire world! Quite an achievement, if it is true.

[SpongeG]

any city can say the same about another community

when i was down in san francisco - which i must say i found very friendly they spoke about the LA - WEHO gay scene has being full of shallow soul less people who are plastic etc.

people in vancouver always say they find toronto gays snobby and montreal people to be too self centered

no matter where you go people will say whatever about other places

[ckkelley]

furrycanuck I'm curious. The article that started this little pissfest stated that gays can walk down the street in Vancouver holding hands with no anxiety.

Do you and your partner hold hands in public regularly in Calgary?

[furbe]

perhaps calgary would have had a better chance in this poll had their elected officials not taken it upon themselves to vehemently oppose gay marriage and reinforce the perception that alberta is not as tolerant or progressive as montreal, vancouver or toronto.

vancouver for the most part is politically left leaning which aligns itself with the political beliefs of most in the gay community. vancouver is one of the most multicultural cities in the country (which further speaks of its tolerance). vancouver consistantly wins recognition as being one of the top tourist destinations in the americas. is it really that hard to believe that vancouver could hold appeal to the gay tourist? it appears to me that this poll is about more than which city has the top nightclubs and best pickup scene.

in regards to the comment about vancouver's smugness and how the rest of the country hates us, isn't there a certain sense of irony? firstly, isn't alberta supposedly the "can do" province, where the rest of us are second rate slackers? secondly, i've listened to countless canadians ramble on about all the reasons canada is better than the united states, whether they are from vancouver, calgary, toronto or montreal. if vancouverites are all smug, then the same could be said about canadians.

[freeweed]

Do you and your partner hold hands in public regularly in Calgary?

I see gay couples doing this all the time in Calgary. Contrary to the stereotype, and what our politicians are famous for clamoring about, this is a pretty tolerant city overall.

[sync]

in regards to the comment about vancouver's smugness and how the rest of the country hates us, isn't there a certain sense of irony? firstly, isn't alberta supposedly the "can do" province, where the rest of us are second rate slackers? secondly, i've listened to countless canadians ramble on about all the reasons canada is better than the united states, whether they are from vancouver, calgary, toronto or montreal. if vancouverites are all smug, then the same could be said about canadians.

you're not going to hear an incredulous "WHY WOULD YOU LIVE THERE?" too often when you tell people in calgary you live in vancouver.

mainly because it's not polite and frankly arrogant.

i heard this over and over when i lived in vancouver.

[Taller Better]

If I had to honestly choose a city in Canada that was tops for gay tourism, it would have to be Montreal. The gay community there learned years ago that you have to invest money to make money, and they advertise heavily in American publications such as The Guide. The gay bars are definitely more reliant on American tourists than other cities, and thus have probably been hit the hardest because of the decrease in tourism from the States. Also if I am frank, one of the biggest draws for gay American male tourists in Montreal are the strip clubs and the widespread escort business, along with the many bars and saunas.
For people here who are not gay, it might be difficult to imagine how important the bars are for gay tourism. Gay bars are, in general, historically more important socially to gay men that for the average straight Joe. Yes, some gay people are going to visit a city and not even bother to check out the gay scene, but the majority of gay men will make a bee-line for the bars to check them out. The article in the Globe stated that the reason Canada became the number one destination over Europe, etc.. was the gay marriage thing. The results of the "poll" found Vancouver the number one destination in the world, Montreal the number two destination in the world, and Toronto the number three destination in the world. Are we seeing a pattern here? Now... is it just me, or is there something weird about these results? Who did they "poll"? If it was not just an online section of their website (totally the most unreliable poll imaginable) and if they actually sent out emails to people, who did they choose to email? What contact lists did they use?
I just find the whole thing fishy and the results to be bizarre. Do these results mean anything to any of you? Do gay people in Vancouver believe that Vancouver is the top draw in the world for gay tourism? :shrug:

[Rusty van Reddick]

furrycanuck I'm curious. The article that started this little pissfest stated that gays can walk down the street in Vancouver holding hands with no anxiety.

Do you and your partner hold hands in public regularly in Calgary?

We've been together 12 years so we're a little past the "holding hands in public" phase, but yeah, we display affection in public all the time here. Not at Stampede, but we cuddled at Folk Fest, always kiss good bye, that sort of thing. Never had a single problem. Never.

[Rusty van Reddick]

perhaps calgary would have had a better chance in this poll had their elected officials not taken it upon themselves to vehemently oppose gay marriage and reinforce the perception that alberta is not as tolerant or progressive as montreal, vancouver or toronto.

Are you talking about Mayor Bronconnier declaring gay pride MONTH in Calgary? Not all of our elected officials are homophobes.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

I hate to say this, but I don't think people in Vancouver have any idea how much the rest of the country hates you. And it's not because Vancouver's beautiful and is not jealousy. It's because of precisely the smug attitude that you are (I hope) satirizing.

Everybody in Toronto shows nothing but love and respect for Vancouver, why the hell would you hate that town?

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

Are you talking about Mayor Bronconnier declaring gay pride MONTH in Calgary? Not all of our elected officials are homophobes.


Hmmmmmmm, a little man named Harper as well.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Everybody in Toronto shows nothing but love and respect for Vancouver, why the hell would you hate that town?

The Toronto consensus, from my experience, is that Vancouver is a beautiful city populated by smug assholes.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Hmmmmmmm, a little man named Harper as well.

I said not ALL our politicians are homophobes, especially in city council. "Not all" means that some are.

[SpongeG]

If I had to honestly choose a city in Canada that was tops for gay tourism, it would have to be Montreal. The gay community there learned years ago that you have to invest money to make money, and they advertise heavily in American publications such as The Guide. The gay bars are definitely more reliant on American tourists than other cities, and thus have probably been hit the hardest because of the decrease in tourism from the States. Also if I am frank, one of the biggest draws for gay American male tourists in Montreal are the strip clubs and the widespread escort business, along with the many bars and saunas.
For people here who are not gay, it might be difficult to imagine how important the bars are for gay tourism. Gay bars are, in general, historically more important socially to gay men that for the average straight Joe. Yes, some gay people are going to visit a city and not even bother to check out the gay scene, but the majority of gay men will make a bee-line for the bars to check them out. The article in the Globe stated that the reason Canada became the number one destination over Europe, etc.. was the gay marriage thing. The results of the "poll" found Vancouver the number one destination in the world, Montreal the number two destination in the world, and Toronto the number three destination in the world. Are we seeing a pattern here? Now... is it just me, or is there something weird about these results? Who did they "poll"? If it was not just an online section of their website (totally the most unreliable poll imaginable) and if they actually sent out emails to people, who did they choose to email? What contact lists did they use?
I just find the whole thing fishy and the results to be bizarre. Do these results mean anything to any of you? Do gay people in Vancouver believe that Vancouver is the top draw in the world for gay tourism? :shrug:

i am from vancouver and i don't think its that great and neither do my circle of friends - but i think we wouldn't want to be anywhere else
so we put up with lack of bars etc. and expensive price of living

my friend raved about the montreal scene when he was there last year

i don't know if its the zoning laws or what that makes vancouvers gay village so lacklustre - i don't think they can put any clubs along davie street - just smaller lounge type places and they don't scream "gay" the way they do in other places - ie manly posters and such - they usually end up pretty mixed

[baggab]

i am from vancouver and i don't think its that great and neither do my circle of friends - but i think we wouldn't want to be anywhere else
so we put up with lack of bars etc. and expensive price of living

my friend raved about the montreal scene when he was there last year

i don't know if its the zoning laws or what that makes vancouvers gay village so lacklustre - i don't think they can put any clubs along davie street - just smaller lounge type places and they don't scream "gay" the way they do in other places - ie manly posters and such - they usually end up pretty mixed


It's most likely a cultural thing. Vancouver is pretty diverse and I know Toronto is even more so, but I think percentage wise it's probably less. Most of my friends from Richmond never leave Richmond (unless it's for school or work). They have everything they want there, Karaoke, late night dining/entertainment for their asian tastes and activities, they're interested in. I'm pretty sure surrey predominantly indo-canadian is probably in the same boat.

There are just too much competition for the entertainment dollar in Vancouver.

[LeftCoaster]

I disagree, most people when they go out go downtown, at least of the people I know. Local scenes are pretty hurting in the burbs, and unless you are going to a specifically ethnic venue, there is little reason. All i can think of that is any good outside of downtown/brodway is standard (blowing money at the casino) and apparently roosters, although that is not really my scene. Mirage fell off bigtime.

When you go out in Vancouver it is definetly not only the whities downtown, it is quite diverse.

and Sponge, i dont think it is zoning, becuase celebrities (the biggest gay bar in Vancouver for those non-locals) is on davie, so there must be another reason.

[furbe]

The Toronto consensus, from my experience, is that Vancouver is a beautiful city populated by smug assholes.

lol... do you really believe the rest of the country views you any differently?

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

Double post.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

The Toronto consensus, from my experience, is that Vancouver is a beautiful city populated by smug assholes.

LOL, how can you say that? Have you been here an walked around asking people, "So what are your views on Vancouver?". Or maybe you've been calling and polling people.

Really, would love to meet some and I’ve been here for a long time now. In all probability the only stereo type that comes up from time to time is the Tree hugging Hippie one but even that is a rarity. Most here consider Vancouver to be a slighter quieter Toronto with better scenery.

On this board it's pretty apparent which city would win the smug award most of the time. Yes I'm aware Toronto has its fare share of smugness as does Vancouver, Montreal and so on, but they all pale in comparison to the city I'm talking about.

[LeftCoaster]

On this board it's pretty apparent which city would win the smug award most of the time. Yes I'm aware Toronto has its fare share of smugness as does Vancouver, Montreal and so on, but they all pale in comparison to the city I'm talking about.

haha, cheers to that! :cheers:

Maybe thats why some people from that city get so upset when others are proud of their city's accomplishments

[cardio]

On this board it's pretty apparent which city would win the smug award most of the time. Yes I'm aware Toronto has its fare share of smugness as does Vancouver, Montreal and so on, but they all pale in comparison to the city I'm talking about.

That's awfully smug of you.

[agrant]

I'm thinking there must be some places in the Greater Vancouver area where people have no reason to be smug. I.e., Downtown Eastside, Langley, Surrey... :D

My feeling is that any smugness comes mostly from the westside, downtown, any nice expensive areas. The people there are thinking they're so damn lucky to be able to afford to live in such a nice place. Am I getting warm? Or is there a special Vancouver genetic makeup? :P

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

That's awfully smug of you.

Yes it is :smiley3:

[osirisboy]

in response to some posts about the lack of gay clubs:

I think gay people (aside from vancouver having a liberal accepting attitude) like to come to vancouver for the same reasons everyone else likes coming to vancouver, because its beutiful. everything from whistler to vancouver island, this region offers a lot of things to do. I dont think how many gay clubs there are or how vibrant davie street is is that important. I and alot of my buddies have visited vancouver (before I moved here) and what kind of gay bars there were here never factored in to us coming here.

[Vancouverite]

in response to some posts about the lack of gay clubs:

I think gay people (aside from vancouver having a liberal accepting attitude) like to come to vancouver for the same reasons everyone else likes coming to vancouver, because its beutiful. everything from whistler to vancouver island, this region offers a lot of things to do. I dont think how many gay clubs there are or how vibrant davie street is is that important. I and alot of my buddies have visited vancouver (before I moved here) and what kind of gay bars there were here never factored in to us coming here.

but the real question is have you become smug since arriving?

[baggab]

I disagree, most people when they go out go downtown, at least of the people I know. Local scenes are pretty hurting in the burbs, and unless you are going to a specifically ethnic venue, there is little reason. All i can think of that is any good outside of downtown/brodway is standard (blowing money at the casino) and apparently roosters, although that is not really my scene. Mirage fell off bigtime.

When you go out in Vancouver it is definetly not only the whities downtown, it is quite diverse.

and Sponge, i dont think it is zoning, becuase celebrities (the biggest gay bar in Vancouver for those non-locals) is on davie, so there must be another reason.

The diversity, for the most part that you're seeing, are usually foreign exchange students or people from Vancouver/Burnaby that downtown is filled with.

Most people from the burbs stay in the burbs, it's partly because of the minimal public transportation provided to them at those hours. You'll obviously see some people, but I assure you it's minimal for the most part. People that I talk to from Coquitlam, White Rock, Ladner and Surrey generally have a strong dislike to travelling to Vancouver... possibly because they have to do it 5 days a week and they deal with the large amount of car crashes that clog the main arteries every week.

[osirisboy]

When you go out in Vancouver it is definetly not only the whities downtown, it is quite diverse.


hahah, whities? good to know the downtown also has the blackies and the brownies.

[smasher000]

Its not like Vancouver has good straight bars. They close too early, and there isnt THAT much variety..

[freeweed]

Can't think of a more appropriate thread for this, so for those that haven't heard yet:


Government motion on same-sex marriage is defeated
Last Updated: Thursday, December 7, 2006 | 3:31 PM ET
CBC News

A motion to reopen the same-sex marriage debate was easily defeated in Parliament on Thursday, as expected.

MPs voted 175-123 against the controversial motion tabled by the ruling Conservatives.

The motion had asked the government to introduce legislation to restore the traditional definition of marriage without affecting civil unions and while respecting existing same-sex marriages.

The motion never had much hope of passing, as the Bloc Québécois and the NDP were forcing their members to vote against it.

Liberals were allowed to vote freely on the matter, but most members were expected to oppose the motion.

The vote should put an end to parliamentary wrangling about same-sex marriage, at least for now. Prime Minister Stephen Harper had said a vote to defeat the motion would settle the matter.

The vote stems from an election promise, to hold a free vote, that Harper made before his Conservative government took power in January.

Same-sex marriage became legal in Canada last year, when the Liberal government passed Bill C-38 in response to a series of court rulings that said gays had the right to marry.

The bill passed 158-133.

Thirty-two Liberals voted against it, while 95 supported it. Only three Conservatives voted in favour of it.

Liberals called this most recent motion hollow because, even if it had passed, it would not have struck down the right of gays to marry.

Most constitutional lawyers have said the only way the Tories could change the law would be to invoke the notwithstanding clause of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, something Harper has said he would not do.

Before Thursday's vote, Liberal MP Bill Graham called the motion a roundabout procedure.

"[It's] a manoeuvre that takes us nowhere; it's not designed to," he said. "It is designed to divide the House, divide the members of the House and divide the Canadian population on an issue that has been settled."

Interesting to note that with this "free" vote that Harper has been going on about for months now, the numbers were actually MORE supportive of SSM.

Can we finally put this chestnut to bed, and move on to issues that actually matter (and are actually the government's business)?

[Rusty van Reddick]

Two of the 12 conservative MPs who voted against the bill (ie supporting same sex marriage) are Calgary MPs: My MP, Lee Richardson of Calgary Centre, and Jim Prentice, MP for Calgary Centre-North. Prentice was one of the 3 cons to support the original SSM bill.

[agrant]

but the real question is have you become smug since arriving?:haha:

[Jammon]

I think this seems to be an issue of rivalry more than smugness. Personally, I find Toronto to be the most smug community, I often wonder why they still consider themselves Canadian! After all, they have an NBA team, and seem intent on gaining an NFL team, and let's not forget their venture into the MLS. Most of these things will remain a pipe dream to most Canadian cities. From my experinece, Torontonians tend to shit on Winnipeggers, and Monrealers often make fun of TO. There is a huge rivalry between those two cities. Winnipeg has a rivalry with most of Saskatchewan, in particular, Regina- while Calgary and Vancouver always seem to have the same issues. This is just pure generalziations, but I have noticed it more than once in my lifetime. I'd have to say that Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg seem to always be lumped together- maybe that's why we all tend to be more tolerant towards each other's communities. I can't remember the last time I heard anyone from Cowtown, or Deadmonton, bash Winterpeg. LOL!

[westcoast604]

Gay tourism is high for the same reasons straight tourism is high in this city. For its surroundings, climate, and lifestyle. What also helps is how laid back this city is, in that you can go pretty much anywhere being openly gay in public without ridicule or harassment. Vancouver generally has a very open minded and progressive attitude towards diversity, including sexuality.

As for the gay bars, it has certainly improved in recent years with the opening of Celebrities and 1181. Both are high quality, very modern venues with rotating A-list DJ's, music, and nights that are comparable to any large city in North America. Sure there are indeed better gay clubs in Montreal, New York etc, but that does not denounce what we have. It is picking up, trust me! There is a bar for every type. It's common place to see flamoyent themed drag queens full of colour walking up the street any night of the week. The city is certainly not repressed when it comes to gay nightlife.

Also, the fact that our gay district is adjacent to beaches on English Bay, with clean cut westcoast style buildings and the supurb landscaping (by Canadian standards) really sets a tone here that you don't find in Montreal or Toronto. The pink bus stops help too. Davie Street is second to only Commercial Drive in Vancouver for heart and soul.

[ssiguy]

Davie St itself is a dump with ugly 1970s commerical buildings. Toronto's Church St ia a beautiful area of old Victorian homes.
Montreal's gay community is also in a slummy eastside location.

Vancouver is a liberal city but still has the nickname "no fun city" and its not for nothing. Vancouver's gay bar scene is pretty pathetic. Vancouver's scene is obvious because it is almost all in the WestEnd. Toronto and Montreal are beyond the ghetto mentality and just more generally relaxed.
All cities have their gay ghettos but the more mature and progressive ones are the ones who haved moved beyond that because they don't need their ghettos to revolve around.
Cities with massive ghettos are often the ones where gays in general don't feel comfortable outside their little area.
The little ghettos evolved for community and safety in numbers. More liberal cities still, and always will, have them but going or living in them is no longer a requirement to feel part of the larger community. They no longer need that security becuase they feel welcome thruout the whole city.

[westcoast604]

Davie St itself is a dump with ugly 1970s commerical buildings. Toronto's Church St ia a beautiful area of old Victorian homes.
Montreal's gay community is also in a slummy eastside location.

Vancouver is a liberal city but still has the nickname "no fun city" and its not for nothing. Vancouver's gay bar scene is pretty pathetic. Vancouver's scene is obvious because it is almost all in the WestEnd. Toronto and Montreal are beyond the ghetto mentality and just more generally relaxed.
All cities have their gay ghettos but the more mature and progressive ones are the ones who haved moved beyond that because they don't need their ghettos to revolve around.
Cities with massive ghettos are often the ones where gays in general don't feel comfortable outside their little area.
The little ghettos evolved for community and safety in numbers. More liberal cities still, and always will, have them but going or living in them is no longer a requirement to feel part of the larger community. They no longer need that security becuase they feel welcome thruout the whole city.


^ I would consider Church St a dump over Davie anyday. Last time I was there (June) the streets were literally lined with garbage bags 2 feet high on both sides of the road for blocks, trash everywhere, cracked broken concrete sidewalks, and everything was a miserable brown brick colour. The gay bars I went to on that street were also very dated inside. But really it is all a matter of taste right? I happen to like the style of Vancouver over that of Ontario. Personally I would consider most urban areas in Ontario a dump. But that is just my opinion. Clearly not yours, so lets not bring your biased tastes to the table.

Vancouver's gay scene is hardly restricted to Davie street there are gay/bi/straight mixed club nights all over the city. Shine, Club 23, the Anza Club, Tokyo Lounge to name a few that aren't near Davie Street. I don't think anyone in the gay community feels the need to revolve around Davie Street anyone. The times have changed and there is no need to stay in one little area.

[Taller Better]

i

i don't know if its the zoning laws or what that makes vancouvers gay village so lacklustre - i don't think they can put any clubs along davie street - just smaller lounge type places and they don't scream "gay" the way they do in other places - ie manly posters and such - they usually end up pretty mixed

They weren't always lame. In the 70's, the West End was a hopping gay village, and bar life was thriving. Ask any of the old timers. It just kind of withered and died, but I have good memories of when it was in full swing. Vancouver's liquour laws were amongst the most antiquated in Canada, and it was very difficult to open a bar before 9pm. Only a handful of tavern/restaurants were able to. I think this fact caused coffee shops like Starbucks to become such an integral part of Vancouver- they were open in the afternoon. The liquour laws have loosened up now, though, since Expo. I know a lot of gay guys in Vancouver are not at all happy with the bar scene, as I have seen the issue thoroughly discussed over and over on a gay chatsite. I think the worst one I was in was PumpJacks. It was bustin' out with 'tude. I think that people have to remember that when they are sarcastic and diss a total stranger when he tells them he is from Toronto, it is really no different than repeating a bunch of racist cliches to the person beside you because you noticed he is black. Why people actually take pride in doing that, and claim it is their right is completely beyond me. It will not make you, or your city, look very good.

I think this seems to be an issue of rivalry more than smugness. Personally, I find Toronto to be the most smug community, I often wonder why they still consider themselves Canadian! After all, they have an NBA team, and seem intent on gaining an NFL team, and let's not forget their venture into the MLS. Most of these things will remain a pipe dream to most Canadian cities. From my experinece, Torontonians tend to shit on Winnipeggers, and Monrealers often make fun of TO. There is a huge rivalry between those two cities. Winnipeg has a rivalry with most of Saskatchewan, in particular, Regina- while Calgary and Vancouver always seem to have the same issues. This is just pure generalziations, but I have noticed it more than once in my lifetime. I'd have to say that Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg seem to always be lumped together- maybe that's why we all tend to be more tolerant towards each other's communities. I can't remember the last time I heard anyone from Cowtown, or Deadmonton, bash Winterpeg. LOL!

Wow. You're kidding. I had no idea any of this was going on. You're joking, right?

[freeweed]

I'd have to say that Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg seem to always be lumped together- maybe that's why we all tend to be more tolerant towards each other's communities. I can't remember the last time I heard anyone from Cowtown, or Deadmonton, bash Winterpeg. LOL!

Wow. You're kidding. I had no idea any of this was going on. You're joking, right?

No kidding. People in Winnipeg are far from tolerant about Calgary :P

[osirisboy]

Davie St itself is a dump with ugly 1970s commerical buildings. .



I agree. There are a handful of buildings like the building celebrities is in that’s worth keeping, everything else could just be bulldozed such as the gas stations, shoppers drugmart, that ugly grocery store with the Rogers video beside it just to name a few. I don’t understand why there hasn’t been any substantial development west of Hornby in ~30 years. I am just not a fan of that area it’s depressing and embarrassing.

[Kilgore Trout]

Montreal's gay community is also in a slummy eastside location.

"slummy eastside location"?

ah yes, starbucks, american apparel, overpriced trendy restaurants, supperclubs, restored victorian buildings, crowded sidewalks... all staples of a slum.

[Taller Better]

Montreal's gay village used to be right downtown, on Peel and the surrounding area. In the very early 70's there was a notorious Police raid of a multi floor gay club called "Buds". The raid revealed a lot of **ahem** embarassing facts that the City officials were not anxious to have happen downtown again (the "Police" type of local tabloids had a heyday). So, they cooked up a scheme to move the gay 'problem' as it then was, out of the downtown core. They offered tax incentives for any gay bar to move to what was quite a run down area of town, about a mile or so east of the core. This area is what we now know of as the Montreal village. There are many excellent clubs/shops/restaurants in the village, but the area itself is still run down by most people's evaluation. It is NOT a slum, but it is still a fairly poor part of town, wouldn't you agree Kilgour? By the way, you have my sympathy that one of those wretched American Apparel stores opened in your village. We keep waiting for it to close in ours. At this time tomorrow I will be on Ste Catherine's right in the heart of the village!!:)

[ncvwgtiboi]

I'm gay and I'll be a tourist in Vancouver this weekend...my first time there. Clubbing is fun, but the real reason I am coming is to check out your mass transit system and get some skiiing in at Whistler. Looking forward to it.

[mezzanine]

Yeah, Davie is lagging behind the rest of downtown. The new renos to the Sandman Inn are nice, with the Kin's Farm Market and Cob's Bakery, but they should NUKE the Money Mart and Liquor store at Bute.

In the 1970s, Davie was very dodgy - prostitution (male and female) was open and trick pads abundant in the whole area before it was pushed to the east in the 80s.

[Greco Roman]

On this board it's pretty apparent which city would win the smug award most of the time. Yes I'm aware Toronto has its fare share of smugness as does Vancouver, Montreal and so on, but they all pale in comparison to the city I'm talking about.

Hmmmm......could it be.....................CALGARY! :D

[Hot Rod]

Hmmmm......could it be.....................CALGARY! :D

Ding. Ding. Ding.

We have a winner! :banana: