[KCgridlock]

I ask because there are typically numbers thrown around locally that contradict what internet sources etc may say.

For example. In planning mag, it states in an article about downtown Chicago residential tower construction that 85,000 people live downtown. I thought for sure it would be much higher than that. Do they only include the loop? Then it would be a bit high I think, but they can't be including areas north of the Chicago River. Anybody know?

Also, in the same mag, an article states that Philly has nearly 100,000 downtown residents. How big of an area are they looking at. Downtown Philly didn't seem like it was loaded with residential towers when I was there over the summer.

Anyway, I just thought I would see if everybody could post what they think their downtown population is and their downtown workforce along with an idea of the geographic area this would pertain to.

Oh and as for KC the numbers I hear all the time are:

15,000 downtown which is a large area and incudes Crown Center. That same area has about 120,000 employees.

I think if you were to look at only our "loop" CBD which is small. We would have closer to 6000 residents and 70,000 employees.

Oh, and I'm not talking about what your town will have in 2020, I mean today. Everybody is building tons of new stuff. What are your numbers today?

Thanks.

[edluva]

barring Manhattan, no American downtown could be that much more populated than the next considering we did that densest 23 sq mile thread awhile back and LA, Chicago, SF, and Montreal had similar figures.

[The Agonist]

barring Manhattan, no American downtown could be that much more populated than the next considering we did that densest 23 sq mile thread awhile back and LA, Chicago, SF, and Montreal had similar figures.

That is definitely not true.

One city's downtown could have a population of 50,000 and another's 100,000 but they could easily have a similar 25 sq mile average density.

Some downtowns are unequivocally more residential than others.

[bryson662001]

Philly's 2 square mile central core has a resident population of 85,000, more or less. This doesn't include surrounding neighborhoods......that's where they get the 100,000 figure. While actually there are many residential towers even more people live in 3 & 4 story brownstones subdivided into apartments. I am not sure about office workers but I have heard the figure 300,000 for a daytime population, which is pretty low for a city of this size.

[edluva]

That is definitely not true.

One city's downtown could have a population of 50,000 and another's 100,000 but they could easily have a similar 25 sq mile average density.

Some downtowns are unequivocally more residential than others.

But I guess it's a subjective call - I personally don't consider 50k a big deal considering the geographic size of most of these "downtowns" being considered, and the fact that whatever population figure one throws at me, I know the density figure is going to underwhelm anyhow (we know the peak census tracts of many cities lies outside of downtown, and even then it's still not that great). Maybe because I've seen many non-American cities and it seems like peanuts to be arguing about any place's density outside of NY. Chicago's and SF's "downtown" density is not that impressive compared with Manhattans either. Now if we threw in employment density, then things change. But who cares how many people are working in cubicles per square mile?

[Paul in S.A TX]

S.A cbd.


Downtown workforce I read over 80,000.

Population over 23,000

[miketoronto]

Downtown Toronto

Residential population: Approx 175,000
Number of Downtown workers: Approx 400,000

Daytime population during daylight hours before 6PM including workers, students, and other visitors to downtown: Over 800,000.

Stats from City of Toronto.

Boundaries: Bathurst Street, The Lake, Don River Valley, Bloor Street/Dupont Street.

Area" 4 sq Miles.

[passdoubt]

A lot of sources throw around the stat that Center City Philadelphia has the third largest residential downtown population in the US, behind New York and Chicago. 88,000 residents. Traditionally, Center City has been between Vine and South, river to river. But maybe they're using Spring Garden to Washington now?

It's expected to break 100,000 residents in Center City before 2010. Gotta wait for the next Census to see.

[MonkeyRonin]

Downtown Toronto

Residential population: Approx 175,000
Number of Downtown workers: Approx 400,000

Daytime population during daylight hours before 6PM including workers, students, and other visitors to downtown: Over 800,000.

Stats from City of Toronto.

I'm curious as to what are the boundaries of this?

The entire Central borough of Toronto has 700,000-750,000 residents in 97 sq. km, though that includes more than just "downtown".

[miketoronto]

I'm curious as to what are the boundaries of this?

The entire Central borough of Toronto has 700,000-750,000 residents in 97 sq. km, though that includes more than just "downtown".

I added the boundaries, which are

Bathurst Street, The Lake, Don River Valley, Bloor Street/Dupont Street.

[MayDay]

Downtown Cleveland's residential population is around 8,000 and growing, with the worker population around 130K-150K, depending on who you ask.

[LMich]

Lansing, MI: City Proper, 119,000 - Metropolitan 455,000

Downtown Daytime Population: ~ 30,000

Downtown Residential Population: 4,800 - 6,200 (depending on how defintion)

Area: ~1.8 square miles

[staff]

Downtown Malmö.
Population: 104.590 inhabitants, or 38,5% of the city proper's population.
Downtown workers: 74.946 people, or 71% of the city proper's total workforce.

City proper total population: 271.271 inhabitants.

Unfortunately I can't find stats for population densities per borough in Malmö.

---

Downtown Copenhagen (29 square kilometers or ~11 square miles).
Population: 238.758 inhabitants (how many NA cities can beat that?), or 48% of the city proper's population.
Population density: 8233 inhabitants/km2, or 21.705 inhabitants/km2.

City proper total population: 502.362.

Unfortunately I can't find stats for the downtown workers per borough in Copenhagen.


Population Greater Malmö: 605.000 inhabitants.
Population Greater Copenhagen: 1,85 million inhabitants.
Population Öresund Metropolitan Region: 3,65 million inhabitants.

[ctman987]

Hartford, CT

Downtown Population: About 1,000-1,500
There are numerous residential projects underway downtown with hopes of increasing the downtown population to 5,000-10,000

Downtown Workforce: About 100,000

[Rusty van Reddick]

Calgary, with a metropolitan population of less than 1.1 million, has a downtown workforce of 120,000.

About 30,000 live in the downtown (defined as the communities of Downtown, West Downtown, Downtown East Village, Chinatown, Eau Claire and Beltline); about 120,000 live within 5 km of the CBD.

[MonkeyRonin]

I added the boundaries, which are

Bathurst Street, The Lake, Don River Valley, Bloor Street/Dupont Street.

I see.. so the core is not actually all that mcuh denser than the surrounding borough..

[LMich]

About 30,000 live in the downtown (defined as the communities of Downtown, West Downtown, Downtown East Village, Chinatown, Eau Claire and Beltline); about 120,000 live within 5 km of the CBD.

Yes, but how many live in Downtown?

[J. Will]

"Downtown Toronto

Residential population: Approx 175,000 "

Downtown Toronto was 162k in 1996, so it's probably at least 190k now, if not 200.

[Joey D]

I think 40,000 work in downtown Wilmington
Maybe 400 people live in downtown Wilmington (sans the crackheads.)

I'm kidding, but I don't think my numbers would be that far off.

[tayser]

Daytime population of Melbourne CBD (includes St. Kilda Road, Southbank and Docklands): 650,000, 25% increase on 4 years ago and the projection is that will increase by 50% by 2014.

2004 stats: Resident population around 10,000-15,000, working population roughly 206,000, the rest students, shoppers, visitors etc etc etc.

comprehensive stats at the MCC's Census of Land use and employment (http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/CLUE)

snapshot (http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/rsrc/CLUE/CLUE04_factsheet.pdf)

[staff]

Whoa, I totally underestimated Frederiksberg Municpality's population compared to it's size. It's incredibly tiny and still holds around 100.000 people, of whom around 48.000 live in what belongs to downtown Copenhagen. I have changed my previous post to the correct figure.

[der Reisender]

Portland's downtown is around 23,000, based on 2000 census numbers and a rough estimate of units finished since then. That's for the area bordered by I-405 and the Willamette. I hear (but have no sources on this) that the employee number is around 100,000.

[chicubs111]

Well it matters what you mean by downtown..I mean chicago's loop is mainly offices with a peppering of residential here and there...the south loop is growing and north of downtown are residential ..so chicago easily comes in at #2 behind manhatten i presume. What is the residential population of midtown and downtown manhatten anyway?

[miketoronto]

I think downtown daytime pop is more important then residential.

A downtown is suppose to be a CITY CENTRE for the entire region. So the more people you have there going down even just in the day is more a sign of how healthy a downtown is.

You can have all the people living downtown you want. But if no one is coming in from the entire surrounding metro region, then downtown is not very healthy.

So I find the daytime pops more interesting.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Yes, but how many live in Downtown?

If you mean "downtown commercial core," something like 8,000, but this is like asking how many people live in the financial district of most cities. In many cities that would be close to zero. "Downtown" Calgary comprises a number of different neighbourhoods, just as does Toronto.

[Steely Dan]

For example. In planning mag, it states in an article about downtown Chicago residential tower construction that 85,000 people live downtown. I thought for sure it would be much higher than that. Do they only include the loop? Then it would be a bit high I think, but they can't be including areas north of the Chicago River. Anybody know?


how can any of us know if the article doesn't explicity say what it is including in its defintition of "downtown". the word downtown is a completely undefined term in chicago, just as it is in many other cities, which makes it worthless as a compariosn tool, which in turn makes threads like this worthless as well.

these "let's compare our downtown" threads pop up all the time on this forum and i always have to go off on my rant about how meaningless comparing downtowns truly is because downtowns themselves are so inadequately and inconsistently defined from city to city.

no doubt this thread will continue with more posts from person x claiming city y has z number of people in its downtown, but it's important to stress the point that comparing "downtowns" is a meaningless endeavor.

[miketoronto]

Well its more just to get a ballpark figure. Each downtown of course is going to be a different size landwise, pop wise, etc.

[Steely Dan]

Well its more just to get a ballpark figure. Each downtown of course is going to be a different size landwise, pop wise, etc.
mike, the incocnsistencies in how different cities define their "downtowns" vary so dramtically that there is no such thing as getting "ballpark figures".

this endeavor is meaningless and it will always be meanignless unless someone comes up with a way to consistently define and determine what exactly is "downtown" for all of the major cities around the country, and indeed around the world.

[mhays]

Steely, you're absolutely right. People can post stuff and have fun, but the comparisons are totally worthless otherwise.

Even if the boundaries are roughly similar, there's still the wildly different accuracy and comprehensiveness of information sources. And most people who quote statistics don't really understand the numbers they're using. (seventyteen percent of them in fact)

[trueviking]

About 30,000 live in the downtown (defined as the communities of Downtown, West Downtown, Downtown East Village, Chinatown, Eau Claire and Beltline); about 120,000 live within 5 km of the CBD.

that is seriously pushing the definition of 'downtown'.....calgary's downtown population is generally considered to be about 13 000...with another few thousand in eau claire and chinatown, i believe....correct me if i am wrong

for winnipeg:

CMA: 715 000

downtown residential: 14 000 (the actual downtown)

downtown employment: 70 000

[trueviking]

here's a link with some old data...still worth a look.

http://www.demographia.com/db-intlcbddens.htm

[mhays]

Demographia...the lair of an evil city hater with an agenda... I suggest that this isn't a reliable source.

[LMich]

mike, the incocnsistencies in how different cities define their "downtowns" vary so dramtically that there is no such thing as getting "ballpark figures".

this endeavor is meaningless and it will always be meanignless unless someone comes up with a way to consistently define and determine what exactly is "downtown" for all of the major cities around the country, and indeed around the world.

I had typed something very similar, but lost it when the forum was acting up, today.

That's exactly the case. These comparisons are apples to oranges unless there's some consistency. The ONLY decent thread that ever accurately compared inner-city/downtown populations was the one that showed the population and density of each city's inner 25 square miles. Anything else is just ridiculous.

[InlandEmpire]

I read that Seattle's downtown population is around 33,000; the downtown employment number was around 160,000 or so. Just something I found online while reading an article about Seattle's mayor wanting to double the downtown population within the next few years. I'm not sure what boundaries they used for this so I'll have to look into it.

[miketoronto]

I still find the stats interesting, because it does give you a estimated figure, no matter how off the boundaries are from one another.

It does not have to be written in stone :) Just gives you a general idea of the area.

[MplsTodd]

For Minneapolis, the data is as follows:

Downtown Employment: Approximately 160,000
Downtown Population: Approximately 31,000

The standard definition of dwtn Mpls is the area bordered by I-35W on the east, I-94 on the south and west, the Mississippi River on the northeast, and Plymouth Avenue on the north. I believe the dwtn population also includes a small area on the east side of the river where Riverplace, St. Anthony Main, and Village at St. Anthony Falls are.

For St. Paul, I'm estimating a little more broadly, but the employment base is approximately 60,000 (including the State Capitol complex) and the population is approximately 7,000.

[The Chemist]

that is seriously pushing the definition of 'downtown'.....calgary's downtown population is generally considered to be about 13 000...with another few thousand in eau claire and chinatown, i believe....correct me if i am wrong


How is that seriously pushing the definition of 'downtown'? All the neighbourhoods that furry mentioned, including the Beltline, are clearly part of the downtown area.

[Steely Dan]

I still find the stats interesting, because it does give you a estimated figure, no matter how off the boundaries are from one another.

It does not have to be written in stone :) Just gives you a general idea of the area.

well, if by "general idea" you mean that these kinds of threads teach us that more people live/work in downtown chicago than downtown des moines, then yes, they do give us that kind of general idea, but that is neither a revelation nor all that interesting. it's in the cities that are closer to each other in size and stature, such as comparing downtown milwaukee to downtown indianapolis, where the definitons become so inconsitent and variable as to make comparisons totally meaningless.

[miketoronto]

These stats show one thing. No matter how busy our downtowns are, they really do not contain a large amount of regional workers or residents anymore.

May look impressive for example to have 500,000 or something workers in the bigger downtowns. But thats really not alot of workers when the entire region has like 3 million workers or something.

These stats no matter how downtown is defined, shows how we have let our downtowns stop being city centres, and just regional centres in a way, because they do not take in the vast amounts of people they once did.

It would be interesting to hear the daytime population of select cities around the world from before the suburban craze and contrast to now.

Example: Are more people in downtown Philly each day today, or back in 1950's. Would be interesting to see not just for Philly, but any city.

[mhays]

For Minneapolis, the data is as follows:

Downtown Employment: Approximately 160,000
Downtown Population: Approximately 31,000

The standard definition of dwtn Mpls is the area bordered by I-35W on the east, I-94 on the south and west, the Mississippi River on the northeast, and Plymouth Avenue on the north. I believe the dwtn population also includes a small area on the east side of the river where Riverplace, St. Anthony Main, and Village at St. Anthony Falls are.

For St. Paul, I'm estimating a little more broadly, but the employment base is approximately 60,000 (including the State Capitol complex) and the population is approximately 7,000.

I looked at Minneapolis by census tract using 2000 numbers once. It was around 22,000 (or 24,000?) residents for an area bounded the freeway loop plus a little south of Loring Park.

[pdxtex]

stat. discrepancies aside, it amazes me how much more dense canadian cities are compared to alot of our (US) less transit friendly cities.

[mhays]

I read that Seattle's downtown population is around 33,000; the downtown employment number was around 160,000 or so. Just something I found online while reading an article about Seattle's mayor wanting to double the downtown population within the next few years. I'm not sure what boundaries they used for this so I'll have to look into it.

The Downtown Seattle Association came up with a figure of 46,484 residents in 2000, growing to 54,572 in 2005. That includes census tracts that generally go to Broadway on the east and Mercer or Roy on the north. It also includes a giant amount of industrial land with a little slice of Beacon Hill. Delete tract 93 and the new figure is around 51,700 in 1,750 acres or so, or about 18,900 per square mile. (roughly double DT Minneapolis' density figure and less than half of Vancouver's)

The employment number for 2003 was 192,000 not including tract 93, or 230,000 including it.

Fascinating: http://www.downtownseattle.com/content/businesses/NHoodProfile.cfm

[InlandEmpire]

^
Thanks mhays! I was thinking the numbers I had found were a little on the low side... good to know the boundaries used too.

[McBane]

Each city has its own definition of downtown. I think in many post-automobile cities (houston, phoenix, etc), downtown is traditionally the location of the CBD, not a place where people live or hang out.

In other cities, downtown can be just another neighbhorhood, but comprising of a combination of office, residential, cultural and entertainment.

For Philly, our downtown (Center City) is really a geographic area (although only 2 sq. miles) that is further made up of many small neighborhoods, most of them residential, with the commerical buildings relegated to a few streets. That is simply the way Philly developed.

In Manhattan the term downtown can vary. Taken literally in Manhattan, it refers to the Financial District area, along with Battery Park City (a relatively new residential area) and perhaps another neighborhood or two. Even with the population of BPC, downtown Manhattan has a relatively small residential population and is very much a M-F 9-5 area, though this is changing somewhat.

The thing with Mantattan is that virtually the entire island has characteristics of a traditional downtown (at least in Philly's sense). Still, I am not 100% familiar with these things, but I believe when the statisticians talk about NYC's downtown population, they might actually be talking about Midtown and its environs. At the very least "downtown" NYC relative to other cities, would probably cover everything south of, what, 96th st.? That's probably between 800,000 - 1 million people.

[MplsTodd]

I looked at Minneapolis by census tract using 2000 numbers once. It was around 22,000 (or 24,000?) residents for an area bounded the freeway loop plus a little south of Loring Park.

About a year ago, the City of Mpls reported that there were 30,000 residents in dwtn. We've added lots of units since then--therefore I adjusted upward to 31,000. By my count, DT Mpls has added about 3,300 residential units since 2000 (including apartments and condos).

[mhays]

I wonder if they were using 2000 figures. In the past few years a lot of sources have used the 30,000 figure based on the area I described plus at least one tract across the river.

Seattle's 51,700 figure would go up by probably 4,000 if it was based on December 2006. I'm guessing we've had 3,000 units complete since the July 2005 figure I quoted, with occupancy around the 1.3 range for these types of units. (I didn't do a real count, but have done periodic "underway" counts that I'm extrapolating from.)

With thousands more units underway now and an even bigger boom possible in the next year, it looks like we might go well over 60,000 for the 2010 census.

[Bassic Lab]

How is that seriously pushing the definition of 'downtown'? All the neighbourhoods that furry mentioned, including the Beltline, are clearly part of the downtown area.


I'd agree with him. The Beltline was never really considered "downtown", there is a clear boundary that exists in the form of the train tracks. I'd include the rest of the communities in downtown though. I don't think that communities should be added to downtown just because they're dense.

So Calgary ought to have about 14 000 thousand people living downtown with 120 000 jobs. This would be in an area of about a square mile. An additional 18 000 or so people living in the Beltline, the community south of downtown of rough equal size.

[SpongeG]

hmm Vancouver is said to be around 60,000 - 70,000 residents downtown and growing

it also is apparently one of the only cities in the world who has more people leave the downtown to go to work than any other city - reverse commuting they call it

no idea of the work force down there

[Kevin]

For Syracuse

Downtown Employment: 30,000
Downtown Population: 2,500

[agrant]

hmm Vancouver is said to be around 60,000 - 70,000 residents downtown and growing

it also is apparently one of the only cities in the world who has more people leave the downtown to go to work than any other city - reverse commuting they call it

no idea of the work force down thereI just read a census (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:8vNxeCqWwo8J:www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/commsvcs/cityplans/CityFacts04.pdf+Vancouver%27s+downtown+population&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=3) from 2001, and the downtown population back then was around 70,000. The work force was about 140,000. The numbers will be a lot different now...

[dfane]

A lot of sources throw around the stat that Center City Philadelphia has the third largest residential downtown population in the US, behind New York and Chicago. 88,000 residents. Traditionally, Center City has been between Vine and South, river to river. But maybe they're using Spring Garden to Washington now?

It's expected to break 100,000 residents in Center City before 2010. Gotta wait for the next Census to see.

Yea you are about right although there hasnt been a census in a while considering the new condos going up, but the residential population is expected to boom and it has been. It is up 12% from 2000 supposedly. Here is an article on philly.com today that sort of breaks it down and also talks about a huge pending project.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/16233877.htm

[UncleRando]

Resident Population:
The CBD/downtown is quite small due to geographic constraints (10 square blocks), so often times they refer to a 'greater downtown' as a more accurate/comparable population count.

CBD: 3,500
Greater Downtown: 12,000

As for the office stuff, I have no idea :shrug:

[mhays]

10 square blocks as in 2 by 5?

Maybe you meant 10 blocks square.

[UncleRando]

^yup (10x10)...sorry about the mis-classification :shrug:

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Currently, the Downtown LA pop is around 30,000 with a doubling up to 60,000 expected in the next few years.

[Westsidelife]

^Yeah, I remember reading that Downtown LA will have about 60,000 residents by 2010. But somehow I just think that there will be more than 60,000 residents living in Downtown by that time because more projects will be announced in 2007 and 2008 which would be completed by 2010-projects that the article didn't take into account.

[forumly_chgoman]

^^^^^yeah Good Luck

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

well, why dont you get informed before you make a comment like that. there are over 30 thousand units either completed, being built or planned for Downtown LA in the next 3 years.

[Westsidelife]

And not to mention Downtown LA will be the cultural hub and entertainment hub of The West Coast.

Grand Avenue:

-Walt Disney Concert Hall (Frank Gehry)
-Dorothy Chandler Pavillion
-Ahmanson Theater
-MOCA
-Colburn School of Performing Arts
-Two skyscrapers designed by our very own Frank Gehry
-Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels (Rafael Moneo)
-LAPD Heaquarters
-Federal Courthouse
-Caltrans (Thom Mayne)
-16 acre Grand Civic Park
-Los Angeles Central High School for the Performing Arts (Coop Himmelblau)

...All of which will come together to create the cultural and artistic hub of a soon to be vibrant Downtown with music, theater, contemporary art, performing arts, cutting edge architecture, government, and religion.

Los Angeles Sports and Entertainment District:

-Staples Center
-LA Live (currently under construction) with shops, restaurants, theaters, clubs, Ritz-Carlton hotel, Ritz-Carlton Residences, Marriott Marquis hotel, as well as the corporate headquarters of Herbalife and West Coast headquarters of ESPN.

Downtown Los Angeles will have no problem attracting new residents when you consider all the amenities it has and will have to offer!

[mhays]

well, why dont you get informed before you make a comment like that. there are over 30 thousand units either completed, being built or planned for Downtown LA in the next 3 years.

It's ok to question such things. Personally I expect that a lot of the planned stuff won't happen, just like other cities. This is partially because so much is planned.

[UncleRando]

I would also find it hard to believe that ANY city will come through on all of the projects they have in the pipeline. I don't know LA's situation, but with the residential bubble bursting I would not put money on the idea that everything will fall in line.

[mhays]

Absolutely. The biggest problem is that, on average, construction prices are rising much faster than housing prices.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

thats true, not every project will get built, but with what is under construction or imminent, there is a very good chance that downtown LA's pop is going to be closer to 60,000 rather than 30,000 in the next 5 years or so.

[Westsidelife]

I have faith that DTLA will easily reach 60,000 residents and continue to grow from there because the idea of Los Angeles having a city center is foreign to just about everyone. Many want to live here yet what's keeping them from making that move is because of the lack of a downtown and a fully developed public transportation system. Once all of that is in place, people will be flocking here.

[Paintballer1708]

I would imagine Cincinnati's downtown is really starting to grow with all the new construction. What is it expected to be in a few years?

[DEBOI302]

I think 40,000 work in downtown Wilmington
Maybe 400 people live in downtown Wilmington (sans the crackheads.)

I'm kidding, but I don't think my numbers would be that far off.doesnt wilmington population go over 150,000 in the day or somewhere around there, well i heard that in the news journal but you cant always believe what you hear from there, but if that was the case it would be around 75,000-100,000 working downtown

[Pennsgrant]

It would be interesting to hear the daytime population of select cities around the world from before the suburban craze and contrast to now.

Example: Are more people in downtown Philly each day today, or back in 1950's. Would be interesting to see not just for Philly, but any city.

Philly's downtown has an interesting dynamic going on. They are gaining residents by the boatload but not gaining office jobs. 1990 Center City had 43% share of the regions white collar jobs, today its down to 27% as the suburbs are cleaning center citys clock with job growth. Center City is a great place to live but apparently ho-hum on attracting jobs.

[A&Fcolumbus]

I would imagine Cincinnati's downtown is really starting to grow with all the new construction. What is it expected to be in a few years?

Well this is true,

I would say that in Ohio however, Columbus seems to be the city with the actual CBD area showing the most residential construction.

Columbus' downtown central business district is also larger, and starting to expand into what was previously warehouses (now called the Arena District, a new downtown neighborhood with condo tower construction occuring as we speak)
Columbus had a larger downtown population (barely) than Cincinnati in 2000

[Doug]

that is seriously pushing the definition of 'downtown'.....calgary's downtown population is generally considered to be about 13 000...with another few thousand in eau claire and chinatown, i believe....correct me if i am wrong


That is correct if you assume downtown is only 0.9 square miles.

[UncleRando]

I would imagine Cincinnati's downtown is really starting to grow with all the new construction. What is it expected to be in a few years?

According to the 3rd Quarter State of Downtown Cincinnati report there are close to 2,200 residential units underconstruction or in pre-leasing phases. This number does not include the additional units for the Banks development along the river. It lists the Banks as having 1,200 units...more recent news/insider information looks at that number now being closer to 2,000 or more.

It also appears that many of these projects are not being hurt by the downturn in the housing market (whats that they say Cincy is always 10 years behing...lol).

With this said I would anticipate the downtown population to double within the next 5-7 years. For more information on Downtown Cincinnati and to view the 3rd Quarter State of Downtown report go here:

http://www.downtowncincinnati.com/PDFs/3Q_06_SOD.pdf

[UncleRando]

Well this is true,
I would say that in Ohio however, Columbus seems to be the city with the actual CBD area showing the most residential construction.

Columbus' downtown central business district is also larger, and starting to expand into what was previously warehouses (now called the Arena District, a new downtown neighborhood with condo tower construction occuring as we speak)

Yes Cbus has the Arena District going for it, but that is debateable whether or not that is actually downtown Cbus. The actual downtown area does have a few projects going on/on the table, but it does not compare with Cincy, Cleveland, and maybe not even Dayton for that matter (see Ballpark Village in Dayton).

[trueviking]

That is correct if you assume downtown is only 0.9 square miles.

sounds about normal in comparasin to other canadian cities.

[hank12]

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Friday, November 3, 2006 - Page updated at 08:24 AM

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Downtown gets its own big grocery
By Amy Martinez and Melissa Allison

Seattle Times business reporters

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JOHN LOK / THE SEATTLE TIMES

A 47,000-square-foot Whole Foods Market is part of 2200, a condominium/hotel project at Westlake Avenue and Denny Way.



ASAHEL CURTIS / UW LIBRARIES

Augustine & Kyer, in the Colman Building at First Avenue and Columbia Street, may have been the last major downtown grocery. This photo was taken in 1909.



JOHN LOK / THE SEATTLE TIMES

Erez Klein, on the floor, stocks wine Thursday in the kosher section of the new Whole Foods Market set to open Wednesday in downtown Seattle.






Next Wednesday, downtown Seattle will get its first major grocery store in generations.

Whole Foods Market is part of a $200 million condominium project called 2200, and will save some residents the trouble of trekking to nearby Queen Anne or the Chinatown International District for groceries.

"We'll be here every day," said entrepreneur Dave Figueroa, 39, admiring the large selection of prepared foods during a private tour Thursday.

Figueroa is moving into a two-bedroom condo across from the store with Richard Vander Meer, 37. They think Whole Foods will draw people to their business — Scraps Dog Bakery, which is set to open next month at 2200.

Developers have wanted a downtown supermarket for years and say they're finally getting one because of the population boom.

Seattle's planning department counts six condominium and apartment buildings under construction in the downtown core, creating about 920 new units in the 100 blocks from Denny Way to Yesler Way and from the waterfront to Interstate 5. Twenty-one projects with more than 5,600 units are on the drawing boards.

2200




Developer Vulcan, a real-estate development company started by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen

Location 2200 block of Westlake Avenue at Denny Way

Size The development covers 2 ½ acres and includes three towers with 261 condominium units ranging in price from $250,000 to $2 million; a 160-room Pan Pacific hotel; a 47,000-square-foot Whole Foods; and various retail shops, including Koots Green Tea, Scraps Dog Bakery, Seva Home Furnishings and Starbucks. There are 800 parking spaces.

Opening The first condominium buyer was set to move in Thursday. Whole Foods plans to open Wednesday, followed by Pan Pacific on Nov. 14. Most other retailers will open by year's end.


Source: Vulcan

Whole Foods, with its sushi bar and large collection of Washington wines, might be just the grocer for a city center that's looking more like the TV show "Frasier" all the time.

But some say downtown Seattle doesn't need a major grocery.

Many condo buyers are at either end of the child-rearing spectrum — just starting out or seeing their children off to college, said Leslie Williams, president of Seattle-based Williams Marketing.

When they feel like cooking something, she said, they go to a small corner grocery or Pike Place Market. And if asked what they'd like at the base of their building — a large supermarket or a mix of deli, dry cleaner and 24-hour pharmacy — they'd probably go with the mix, she said.

"There's lots of corner stores that have the basics. And honestly, most people eat out," said Williams, whose firm is promoting several condo projects downtown without plans for a grocery.

Leigh Dinnis, 32, said the lack of a major grocery was one of her main gripes after moving to downtown Seattle from Atlanta. Dinnis, a banking executive's assistant, lives with her husband at Centennial Tower Apartments at Fourth Avenue and Wall Street. They're saving to buy a house and don't expect to be shopping a lot at Whole Foods.

Whole Foods Market




Headquarters: Austin, Texas

Number of stores: 188 in 33 states

Employees: About 39,000

Washington stores: Redmond, Bellevue and Roosevelt Square in Seattle. Plans to open at Westlake and Denny in Seattle (Wednesday), West Seattle and Interbay (dates not announced).


Source: Whole Foods

"If you're trying to stay on a budget, going to Whole Foods is cost-prohibitive," Dinnis said.

The 2200 project initially was to house a QFC, but the space ultimately went to Whole Foods. Now, QFC plans to build a 40,000-square-foot grocery at Lumen, a 94-unit residential project under construction on the other side of Seattle Center.

Alan J. Winningham, principal at Landstar Real Estate, which is developing Lumen, said he thinks Whole Foods at 2200 is "just the tip of the iceberg."

His prediction for downtown: big-box retailers such as Target and Best Buy.

"You can't buy Coca-Cola at a Whole Foods," Winningham said. "You can't buy Tide detergent."


Narrow margins


One reason grocery stores require dense residential populations is that many operate on narrow margins, making it difficult to squeeze profits from thinly populated neighborhoods.

Most downtown locations also carry hefty rents.

The formula is different for stores such as Walgreens and Bartell Drugs, which sell some grocery items. They make a profit by limiting their inventory and charging higher prices.

"People buy it because it really matters to have it right now," said Bert Hambleton, a grocery marketing consultant based in Issaquah.

Whole Foods' higher prices mean it can pay higher rent than some grocers, but probably not as high as the $30-per-square-foot and up being charged for street-level space in downtown Seattle, Hambleton said.

"I can't imagine a sales forecast for a grocery store that could justify that kind of rent," he said.

Neither Whole Foods nor developer Vulcan would disclose the new store's rent, but Walter Robb, co-president and chief operating officer for Whole Foods, said that "when a developer puts something like that together, the larger user of space gets a different deal than the smaller operator."


Downtown growth


The last major downtown grocery that local historians can recall was Augustine & Kyer, in the Colman Building at First Avenue and Columbia Street in the early 1900s. It delivered groceries in horse-drawn carriages to homes on First Hill and elsewhere, said regional historian Paul Dorpat.

By the time supermarkets came along, people were leaving some inner-city neighborhoods for the suburbs. But now, many urban areas are growing fast. An estimated 20,470 people live in downtown Seattle, about double the number of residents in 1990, according to demographic-research firm SRC, based in Orange County, Calif.

Whole Foods expects to pull shoppers from other parts of the city. The chain also expects some people who work downtown to drop by on their way home.

The owner of Ralph's Grocery and Deli, a 6,500-square-foot store at Fourth Avenue and Virginia Street, said he is not worried about competition from Whole Foods.

For one thing, Ralph's draws customers from only about two blocks in each direction, and Whole Foods will be about six blocks away, Joe Cohen said.

For another, "we're not that type of business," he said. "When you come in here, you'll purchase two or three items. When you go down there, you do major shopping. ... You don't want to wander around a 40,000-square-foot store looking for one or two items."


Researcher Gene Balk contributed to this article. Amy Martinez: 206-464-2923 or amartinez@seattletimes.com. Melissa Allison: 206-464-3312 or mallison@seattletimes.com


Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company

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[mhays]

That Seattle Times article gives the wrong impression about groceries. There are dozens of grocery stores in Downtown Seattle. If you want a huge selection, you can shop at the Pike Place Market in the middle of DT, or at numerous supermarkets around the perimeter of DT, including another one u-c. Plus there are many corner groceries, as well as probably seven or eight mid-size groceries (at least a few thousand square feet). Some of the bigger drugstores have sizeable grocery sections too. Whole Foods is great, but they're overstating the difference it makes.

Where I live, in Belltown, I can walk to four full-size supermarkets in 15 minutes, plus the Pike Place Market. Mostly I shop at the nicely-stocked corner store in my building, which also has no line.

[MayorOfChicago]

I found a total of 98,708 residents in the downtown area of Chicago (obviously not just the loop itself) with a growth in that area of 20,821 residential units sold from 2000-2004. The area includes the Loop South/West/East loop and River North. While River North isn't the middle of the Central Business District, I would certainly concider it part of Downtown Chicago.

[mhays]

Is that total sales, or sales of new construction only? What about rentals?

[London999]

London's financial district, the square mile, has almost no residential properties. The residential population is only about 6,000 but the working population is around 400,000. This must be one of the densest areas on Earth when you consider that it only occupies an area of 1 sq mile.

[edluva]

^I'm not doubting you, but I'd like to see figures on this. That's really high employment density, even for London

[edluva]

^Yeah, I remember reading that Downtown LA will have about 60,000 residents by 2010. But somehow I just think that there will be more than 60,000 residents living in Downtown by that time because more projects will be announced in 2007 and 2008 which would be completed by 2010-projects that the article didn't take into account.

how are you sure though that more projects will be announced in 2007 and 2008? Developer's aren't even sure they can break ground on proposals which have cleared the approval process within the coming months. Just because a project has been proposed doesn't mean it's going up.

To acheive a pop of 60k, we're going to have to build and lease or sell the equivalent of 30k's worth of units by 2010 in a market that's already demonstrated depreciation. There's no need to be defensive as the skepticism (and reality-check) is easily warranted. Plus what mhays said about construction costs is even more applicable to LA where it costs more than most American cities to justify high-rise construction.

[LMich]

London999, every source I've seen puts the City's (The Square Mile) daytime population at just about 320,000:

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/about_us/_whatis.htm

It's stil an amazing concentration of office space. Funny thing is that even being there during the day, it doesn't feel that large.

[hank12]

Downtown growth


The last major downtown grocery that local historians can recall was Augustine & Kyer, in the Colman Building at First Avenue and Columbia Street in the early 1900s. It delivered groceries in horse-drawn carriages to homes on First Hill and elsewhere, said regional historian Paul Dorpat.

By the time supermarkets came along, people were leaving some inner-city neighborhoods for the suburbs. But now, many urban areas are growing fast. An estimated 20,470 people live in downtown Seattle, about double the number of residents in 1990, according to demographic-research firm SRC, based in Orange County, Calif.

Whole Foods expects to pull shoppers from other parts of the city. The chain also expects some people who work downtown to drop by on their way home.

The owner of Ralph's Grocery and Deli, a 6,500-square-foot store at Fourth Avenue and Virginia Street, said he is not worried about competition from Whole Foods.

For one thing, Ralph's draws customers from only about two blocks in each direction, and Whole Foods will be about six blocks away, Joe Cohen said.

For another, "we're not that type of business," he said. "When you come in here, you'll purchase two or three items. When you go down there, you do major shopping. ... You don't want to wander around a 40,000-square-foot store looking for one or two items."


Researcher Gene Balk contributed to this article. Amy Martinez: 206-464-2923 or amartinez@seattletimes.com. Melissa Allison: 206-464-3312 or mallison@seattletimes.com


Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company

[shane453]

4,165 residents, 43,000 employees. I know the rules are not what it will be in 2020, but I think our residential population will triple within the next couple of years, becuase the unit count is tripling. The office population is still iffy.

[mhays]

Downtown growth


The last major downtown grocery that local historians can recall was Augustine & Kyer, in the Colman Building at First Avenue and Columbia Street in the early 1900s. It delivered groceries in horse-drawn carriages to homes on First Hill and elsewhere, said regional historian Paul Dorpat.

By the time supermarkets came along, people were leaving some inner-city neighborhoods for the suburbs. But now, many urban areas are growing fast. An estimated 20,470 people live in downtown Seattle, about double the number of residents in 1990, according to demographic-research firm SRC, based in Orange County, Calif.

Whole Foods expects to pull shoppers from other parts of the city. The chain also expects some people who work downtown to drop by on their way home.

The owner of Ralph's Grocery and Deli, a 6,500-square-foot store at Fourth Avenue and Virginia Street, said he is not worried about competition from Whole Foods.

For one thing, Ralph's draws customers from only about two blocks in each direction, and Whole Foods will be about six blocks away, Joe Cohen said.

For another, "we're not that type of business," he said. "When you come in here, you'll purchase two or three items. When you go down there, you do major shopping. ... You don't want to wander around a 40,000-square-foot store looking for one or two items."


Researcher Gene Balk contributed to this article. Amy Martinez: 206-464-2923 or amartinez@seattletimes.com. Melissa Allison: 206-464-3312 or mallison@seattletimes.com


Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company

Everybody has different population stats. The Downtown Seattle Association uses a figure of 54,000 for 2005 -- they've simply added some census tracts north of Denny and east of I-5 (plus one big one that's mostly industrial with a little bit of Downtown on the edge). Otherwise their area is about 1,750 acres if I recall.

As for supermarkets, why aren't they counting Uwajimaya? The ID is at least as much part of "Downtown" as Westlake and Denny. PS, I went to Uwajimaya an hour ago, and it was PACKED.

They're conveniently defining "downtown" to omit other stores. I suppose the three supermarkets on Lower Queen Anne and the one at Broadway and Pike are less "downtown" than Whole Foods. But the old 8th & Madison Thriftway was two blocks from major office towers until it closed in 1999 or so (to be replaced by a new store in a tower opening this year!).

[Minato Ku]

Paris
131,625 residents and 408,111 employees in Opera financial district with an area of 8.878 km2 (3.42 sqm)

Density
14,826 inh/km2 (38,487 inh/sqm)
45,969 jobs/km2 (119,331 jobs/sqm)
Not bad

Jobs density is higher in la Defense but it is not the biggest and the central business district of Paris ;) .
200,000 jobs/km2 (517,997 jobs /sqm) :D

[LMich]

Paris
131,625 residents and 408,111 employees in Opera financial district with an area of 8.878 km2 (3.42 sqm)

Density
14,826 inh/km2 (38,487 inh/sqm)
45,969 jobs/km2 (119,331 jobs/sqm)
Not bad

Jobs density is higher in la Defense but it is not the biggest and the central business district of Paris ;) .
200,000 jobs/km2 (517,997 jobs /sqm) :D

Can you please show me a map of Paris proper's financial district, and where yoiu're getting these numbers from, just out of cuiosity and to cite?

[Minato Ku]

Yes
District of Paris

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Par_Arr.jpg

Jobs density

http://mapage.noos.fr/gogf/emploi.jpg

Jobs/population
(Paris Opera financial district is the darkest districts in center of Paris
the 1st ,2nd, 8th and the 9th districts

http://mapage.noos.fr/gogf/emploi-pop.jpg

For more information
Paris official english site (http://www.paris.fr/en)

For those numbers Wikipedia is reliable because it is all INSEE data
Arrondissements of Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissements_of_Paris)
INSEE (http://www.insee.fr/)

For the high number of la Defense this is simple La Defense area is less than 1 Km2

[LMich]

Thanks! I'd always wondered what Paris proper defined it's "CBD" (Central Business District as.

[Shawn]

What is "downtown" Boston? Is the North End part of it? Beacon Hill? Back Bay? The South End? Bay Village?

[Minato Ku]

Thanks! I'd always wondered what Paris proper defined it's "CBD" (Central Business District as.

Paris is more the center of this a urban area than the CBD
because if the whole Paris is the CBD you have one of biggest CBD in the world 86 Km and 1.6 millions jobs (I think that Tokyo CBD have similar numbers) I can say that. The whole Paris has a high jobs density but It is more correct to say that Paris has several business districts.
( Opera, La Defense, Val De Seine, Plaine Saint Denis, Bercy Paris rive Gauche, Parisud, Montparnasse, Velizy...etc)

[mhays]

Cities don't define their "CBDs" or "downtowns" in way that are definitive or comparable to other cities. Cities simply draw boundaries for planning, administrative, and political purposes.

[ssiguy]

Although this thread does give some reflection on dense and not dense cities that can mean so very much.
I think the one way to gage this would be more like the most populas 5 sq km in the inner city area. As noted earlier New York's "downtown" is quite baren but that's due to the huge number of office towers.
That is a good gage if your City Hall isn't downtown.

If your City Hall is downtown then why don't we use that as a base and then give the stats from the ajoining 5 sq km. What do ya think?

[ssiguy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sorry, I meant 4 to 5 sq MILES not Km.

[soleri]

Phoenix probably has the most elastic geographic definitions of any major city's downtown. In fact, it's impossible to settle on precise boundaries although we have some good ones: inside the freeway ring.

I've seen stats all over the place. But I'll put the residetial number downtown at less than 2,500 and the workforce number at less than 30,000. If those numbers seem small, remember this is the world's biggest suburb.