[rad707]

I think it would be nice to have a thread to discuss the projects coming up along the rail line stops (I think we might have already started one way back...but I forget).

The most recent news is coming from the rail stop at MLK near Airport Blvd. Tom Meredith of Dell fortune owns the Featherlite Tract there and dirt is turning. It will be called the Chestunet Commons and they have a website:

http://www.austinchestnut.com/?page=welcome

M1EK has already commented on this claiming that the retail will be low quality because the rail line goes nowhere (compared with the Red Line in Dallas and Mockingbird Station) but I think his views are short-sighted. Yes, the line doesn't go anywhere if heading North towards Cedar Park, but anyone living here would have great access to Satillo and Downtown as well as what will be only one or two stops to Mueller when it's complete. I think this area has huge potential, especially for the hipsters who have cultural aspirations much larger than their wallets (and will need more affordable housing options on the East Side now that the South is becoming overpriced). Besides, the art is here. Studios abound (Flat Bed is across the street from the development) so there is cultural influence already in the area. Hell, I have friends working white collar jobs who are buying in this area now...this is the next frontier of Austin gentrification.

I remember Mockingbird Station when it was an abandoned Dr. Pepper plant. Hell, I used to get drunk behind the building when I was in high school. Greenville was sketchy. So was Mockingbird. This was an area known for coke dealers and hookers. No shit...just blocks from SMU and toney Highland Park. The same comments were made then: nobody will care, the line doesn't go anywhere, developers will be hesitant, etc. etc. etc.

Short sighted...

I can't wait to see what they come up with.

Feel free to post information about the other sites here. It will be nice to have it all in one place.

[M1EK]

M1EK has already commented on this claiming that the retail will be low quality because the rail line goes nowhere (compared with the Red Line in Dallas and Mockingbird Station) but I think his views are short-sighted. Yes, the line doesn't go anywhere if heading North towards Cedar Park, but anyone living here would have great access to Satillo and Downtown as well as what will be only one or two stops to Mueller when it's complete.

Missed the point completely.

The problem is the downtown end of the line, not the Cedar Park end. Anybody buying a townhouse at this development intending on taking the train to work every day will quickly discover that the ride to work is: get on the twice-hourly commuter rail train, ride to the Convention Center, and then: ??

SHUTTLE BUS.

The whole point of TOD is to capture people who won't ride the bus today. (And you can easily ride the bus downtown from those environs today; why on earth would you want to hop the train and then a bus? A two-seat ride where the second seat is still just a bus isn't going to win over any more choice commuters than a one-seat ride via bus).

By the way, I was just in South Florida over Thanksgiving. The big TOD referred to here and elsewhere at the Boca stop is just a strip mall (nothing but single-story retail with lots of surface parking) and is clearly not intended to attract passengers arriving via the train - it's more a matter of some very close-in real estate suddenly becoming available. This model might work for the Austin tract as well, but it's sure as hell not "transit-oriented development".

As for your comments about Dallas - again, this betrays the inability of both the neanderthals like Skaggs _AND_ the naiverthals to understand that there can, in fact, be cases where rail can be good _OR_ bad depending on where it's routed. Dallas' line succeeded because a lot of suburbanites could ride it straight to their destination without having to transfer to a shuttle bus. Likewise, Tri-Rail failed to attract choice commuters because everybody needs to hop a shuttle bus to go anywhere once they get to the train station.

[tennreb]

As much as I love Austin, it's rail seems to be the worst planned method of transit I've ever seen. Nobody is ever going to ride this thing unless they can't afford a a car.

[Gallup]

I will never live in Leander but I hope some commuters will use it and leave their cars in Leander.

[rad707]

its understandable that you missed the point. you are using the term "transit oriented development" in your thinking rather than "densification" or what i also refer to as "new urbanism." moreover, you are trying to apply logic when logic does not exist.

it illogical that people would be willing to spend the prices they do to live in austin's "new urbanism" and yet they do. it is illogical to think that a rail line, regardless of efficiency, will play a role in the mental concept of "place" but it does.

people don't train into Mockingbird station to hit the bars at night; they use the parking garage. this is TOD to some, but really it's just new urbanism with a TOD sheen. the hands are still on the wheel.

right now I'm looking out of a window in downtown tampa at a trolly system that is essentially obsolete, and yet "new urbanism" is popping up all around it because of one factor - the illogical but infectious desire to leave the suburbs for something (anything) different or better.

the line running through east austin will have a huge impact on the places it stops. even without the line there are signs that the east side hipsters are moving the direction of MLK and Airport; this line will just increase their perception that the price of the land/rent is worth it to live there and subsequently open up shops similar to what is now found at pedernales.

mike, this isn't a TOD discussion. please remove logic when discussing the impact stations will have on their surrounding areas. the simple fact is that people just love the idea of "place", and anything wreaking of "new urbanism" will do (even if they may still live in and drive from suburbia to get to it).

[tildahat]

Anyone heard anything new on Crestview Station? The website hasn't had anything new in months and months. About 6-9 months ago, I emailed them and they said there would be info "soon". Of course Mueller has been promising to announce builders "soon" for 2 years...

[M1EK]

its understandable that you missed the point. you are using the term "transit oriented development" in your thinking rather than "densification" or what i also refer to as "new urbanism." moreover, you are trying to apply logic when logic does not exist.

it illogical that people would be willing to spend the prices they do to live in austin's "new urbanism" and yet they do. it is illogical to think that a rail line, regardless of efficiency, will play a role in the mental concept of "place" but it does.

This all falls back into the difference between "transit-oriented development" and "transit-adjacent development". Nothing currently proposed for this site appears to be significantly more dense than development happening in other areas with poor transit service, thus, it's not logical to call it TOD, or imply as you do that the rail line has anything to do with the development's desireability or lack thereof.

Likewise, the supposed TOD in Boca Raton turned out to be single-story strip retail - of the type which is quickly built whereever possible in the region, regardless of proximity to Tri-Rail.

[austlar]

I agree with the person who suggests that the new rail line will not attract a large ridership due to the fact that most passengers will be faced with a bus ride to reach their final destination. It seems to me that part of the problem is that downtown Austin does not have a daytime population sufficiently large to justify rail at this point, certainly not a daytime population living or working within a reasonable walking distance from the station. Downtown needs several million additional square feet of office space with thousands of additional office workers to make this thing really viable. It seems kind of strange to me that so many of the new highrise residents that will soon be living downtown are probably going to climb into their cars and drive a reverse commute to work outside of the central city. Most to these new residents will not be able to take rail to work outside of downtown because the new rail line does not really serve any areas with dense employment within walking distance of the rail stations. That is the main difference between this new Austin line and the line in Dallas that runs up the employment-rich North Central corridor. Maybe in time the Austin project will spur dense job development along its path, perhaps along Airport Blvd. or in the Highland Mall area. This is the sort of development the city should be trying to encourage. It seems to me to be more important than trying to encourage residential development along a rail line that does not take anybody where they need to go.

[M1EK]

I agree with the person who suggests that the new rail line will not attract a large ridership due to the fact that most passengers will be faced with a bus ride to reach their final destination. It seems to me that part of the problem is that downtown Austin does not have a daytime population sufficiently large to justify rail at this point, certainly not a daytime population living or working within a reasonable walking distance from the station.

Right answer, wrong reason. There's enough workers at the three big attractors (UT, capitol, downtown) to justify the 2000 light rail line, according to the Feds. Problem is that the 2004 commuter rail line doesn't go anywhere near two of the three, and only sort-of the third (still requiring a shuttle bus for most people travelling to downtown offices).

Our 2000 light rail proposal closely matched the successful starts in Portland, Dallas, Minneapolis, Salt Lake, Denver, etc. Our 2004 proposal models after the Tri-Rail debacle in South Florida. Big difference - has nothing to do with the population being served, and all about how they're being served.

[austlar]

I am not talking about UT or the Capitol area, I am referring to the first 10 blocks of downtown from the river to the Capitol and from IH35 to Lamar. If there were more large office buildings in this area filled with workers, as opposed to the various office parks scattered all over Austin in places like South Mopac or the Arboretum, this rail project, the one that is going to happen, might attract ridership in sufficient numbers to justify the cost. Maybe over time it will, if the downtown area continues to grow and if large numbers of jobs are created elsewhere along the route. The prospect of a full scale medical center developing at Muelller over the next 10-15 years and the seemingly inevitable redevelopment of the Highland Mall area, might bode well for the long term prospects of this commuter rail project. Hopefully it can survive long enough for this to happen. It might prove tempting for officials to pull this plug on this thing early on, and it would be fairly easy to do given the simplicity of the scheme. It should be interesting to see how this unfolds.

[M1EK]

I am not talking about UT or the Capitol area, I am referring to the first 10 blocks of downtown from the river to the Capitol and from IH35 to Lamar.

Even then, there's more than enough offices, IF the rail line went through the middle of this concentration of office buildings, rather than being a mile away on the fringe. You're vastly overestimating how much office density needs to exist in order for a starter line to be a success - we're already well past that number. (Other cities our size have succeeded with light rail starter lines with a downtown employment center roughly our size - we had the added benefit of having two MORE centers which the 2000 line would have gone right past).

The prospect of a full scale medical center developing at Muelller over the next 10-15 years

The commuter rail line doesn't go close enough to Mueller. A shuttle bus would be required here, too. Oops. And Highland Mall might redevelop IF high-quality rail transit was there FIRST; but it cannot and will not redevelop before that time, because it's a borderline-sketchy area with far more attractive competitors.

[alexjon]

M1EK, I agree with you, but you're a major snot and that makes you come across as a wet blanket.

[M1EK]

M1EK, I agree with you, but you're a major snot and that makes you come across as a wet blanket.

alexjon, I agree with you, but you're a major snot, and that makes you come across as a whiny fool.

[austlar]

M1EK-

I think you are dead wrong about Highland Mall's prospects. I think it probably has a future similar to Mueller's. It is too big a tract located just a short distance from most everyting that is important in Austin. It is sure to attract the attention of developers, and the fact that it has gotten so dicey around there just makes it more ripe for the plucking. I predict that the mall will close within the next 5 years or so, and the dirt will start to fly shortly afterwards. Time will tell, I guess.

[M1EK]

M1EK-

I think you are dead wrong about Highland Mall's prospects. I think it probably has a future similar to Mueller's. It is too big a tract located just a short distance from most everyting that is important in Austin. It is sure to attract the attention of developers, and the fact that it has gotten so dicey around there just makes it more ripe for the plucking. I predict that the mall will close within the next 5 years or so, and the dirt will start to fly shortly afterwards. Time will tell, I guess.

There's nothing near Mueller _or_ Highland Mall that anybody wants to go to, but Mueller had the advantage of being a city-owned tract on which the city could negotiate a deconstruction/remediation project for. The city can afford an investment like that that will take decades to pay off; no private developer would risk it at Highland.

You might see a new retail center there someday, but don't count on anything more fabulous than that.

[alexjon]

alexjon, I agree with you, but you're a major snot, and that makes you come across as a whiny fool.

Attempt failed!Attempt failed!Attempt failed!

[austlar]

There are two or three major highways carrying more 300,000 cars a day passing within spitting distance of both Mueller and Highland Mall. Both are only a mile and half or two miles from UT and downtown. I think developers find that kind of accessibility pretty compelling, especially given the size of the tracts involved. For all this talk about rail, it is useful to keep in mind that highways and cars still dictate most development decisions and will continue to do so in Austin for years to come. Having rail nearby, flawed though it may be, only enhances the prospects for both of these areas. My long term prediction for HIghland Mall is that it will contain a lot of office space and a lot of housing along with some shopping. It will primarily be a business environment. Time will tell, and until then I guess we agreee to disagree.

[M1EK]

There are two or three major highways carrying more 300,000 cars a day passing within spitting distance of both Mueller and Highland Mall. Both are only a mile and half or two miles from UT and downtown. I think developers find that kind of accessibility pretty compelling, especially given the size of the tracts involved. For all this talk about rail, it is useful to keep in mind that highways and cars still dictate most development decisions and will continue to do so in Austin for years to come. Having rail nearby, flawed though it may be, only enhances the prospects for both of these areas. My long term prediction for HIghland Mall is that it will contain a lot of office space and a lot of housing along with some shopping. It will primarily be a business environment. Time will tell, and until then I guess we agreee to disagree.

Highland is the closest mall to my house - and I tend to go there when I'm shopping by myself. I'm an urbanite, and yet I find the experience unpleasant. The mall's becoming dirty, messy, loud, full of misbehaving teenagers, and just all-around turning into the kind of dying mall you saw in older areas in South Florida (think Palm Beach Mall).

Highland is in the same economic boat as Northcross (a bit better off, but the same basic problem): It was built as medium-density retail back before all the suburban malls even existed - so both it and Northcross were able to draw people from quite far away. Now, their respective catchment areas have shrunk drastically, but essentially no new density in those areas has arrived to make up the difference - so each can draw upon far fewer prospective customers than it used to do. Now, both are stuck with a catchment area of low-density residential (Northcross much worse in this regard). Highland's disadvantage is more that the remaining catchment contains a higher fraction of disadvantaged folks than most mall operators would consider desirable, but at least it still has more residential density on which to draw than does Northcross, which is why it's still more of a going concern, although a bit sketchy at times.

Highland could at least bounce back if Mueller ever gets off the ground (remember, houses were originally supposed to be under construction by now; but they haven't even laid utilities/streets). Northcross - not so much.

Long ways of saying: the location next to big roads is kind of irrelevant - people aren't going to drive in from Round Rock anymore to go to either one. IF Highland recovers, it won't have anything to do with the fact that it's central; it'll have to do with the fact that the population in its catchment area rebounds.

[austlar]

Maybe people won't drive there to shop, but I think they'd sure as hell drive there to go to work. The shopping center is toast. The land it sits upon is destined for something new, hopefully as a high density commercial development, not tomorrow, not next year, but more than likely some time in the next 10 to 15 years. This would, of course, be dependent upon continuing good economic conditions for the Austin region. I am sure the city will take a keen interest in seeing that the site is utilized and will supply incentives to make it happen. If a real medical center emerges at Mueller during this time frame, there will be several thousand new jobs in the immediate area and Mueller will be built out. The next logical spot to develop is Highland Mall. Those busy roadways that you are so eager to discount will still be at the heart of the picture as development decisions are made. The IH35 remodel should be well underway or completed by that time. It may or may not contain a rail component. No matter, IH35 and the connecting highways such as Research and 290 will place both Highland and Mueller at the heart of the region's transportion core.

[Mopacs]

Maybe people won't drive there to shop, but I think they'd sure as hell drive there to go to work. The shopping center is toast. The land it sits upon is destined for something new, hopefully as a high density commercial development, not tomorrow, not next year, but more than likely some time in the next 10 to 15 years. This would, of course, be dependent upon continuing good economic conditions for the Austin region. I am sure the city will take a keen interest in seeing that the site is utilized and will supply incentives to make it happen. If a real medical center emerges at Mueller during this time frame, there will be several thousand new jobs in the immediate area and Mueller will be built out. The next logical spot to develop is Highland Mall. Those busy roadways that you are so eager to discount will still be at the heart of the picture as development decisions are made. The IH35 remodel should be well underway or completed by that time. It may or may not contain a rail component. No matter, IH35 and the connecting highways such as Research and 290 will place both Highland and Mueller at the heart of the region's transportion core.

Highland sure has some vast parking areas (particularly along the E and SE sides of the mall...near Dillards). So there's definitely room for further densification, with or without the mall.

For whatever reason, the Rouse Company (now General Growth Properties) has seemingly invested no money in rennovating the mall for years and years. I dont know what to make of this to be honest, but its always been a disappointment. In the time since the 'new' wing (Macys) opened in 1979, Barton Creek Mall has opened, AND been rennovated twice. In that same time, the only major upgrade to the mall has been the addition of the Food Court, over 21 years ago. Oh well, thats just my superficial observation.

Time will tell what happens. I'm an old school indoor mall proponent, and would hate to see the mall demolished... ideally it can be integrated into a larger development. Perhaps wishful thinking.

[Jdawgboy]

I agree with Mopacs on this one. I actually go to Highland mall once every two weeks because that is where I get my hair cut done. I live in South Austin so I one of the few that are not living within the 5 mile radius or so of Highland. I do think that the company that owns the mall has not spent the time, effort, or money into that mall. I really think it could be upgraded add new wings to the mall maybe have them being 3 or 4 levels instead of two, market the mall to try to draw more department anchors for one to replace where JC Penny was and also if they added another wing. I know more then one person that works there so I ask them every now and then if they have heard any news or info on what will happen to the old JC Penny end. I am also a mall lover because I honestly do not want to walk around outside in the summer in 100 degree weather or have to run from one store to the other if its raining outside or cold. Time will tell what will ultimatly happen to Highland Mall (but wishful thinking on my part maybe), I hope it stays as a mall and ultimatly gets built up and renovated.

[austintilIdie]

I'd certainly like renovation or redevelopment at Highland...heck even Lincoln Village just to the east., perhaps similiar to Houston's Galleria area and throw in some office/residential ideas in there...with the proximity to the Airport Blvd rail line in development...it's prime location for TOD (transit oriented development). It's time to rethink the NW section of 35/290.

I've never seen the Highland Mall parking lot full or even half way full. Lincoln Village has seen better days. Or perhaps it has lost its charm on me.

[jread]

Highland could at least bounce back if Mueller ever gets off the ground (remember, houses were originally supposed to be under construction by now; but they haven't even laid utilities/streets).

I'm a GIS guy at the water utility and can say that it will definitely be awhile. The plans for Mueller phase 1 and 2 are sitting on my desk at work... right at this very moment. Also, they are the "proposed" plans. I should get them entered tomorrow and then who knows how long it will be before construction begins.

[M1EK]

I'd certainly like renovation or redevelopment at Highland...heck even Lincoln Village just to the east., perhaps similiar to Houston's Galleria area and throw in some office/residential ideas in there...with the proximity to the Airport Blvd rail line in development...it's prime location for TOD (transit oriented development).

SIGH.

Once again, you never, ever get TOD on low-quality transit lines, which is what this commuter rail line is. When prospective developers see that the rail line has no choice commuters riding it (only the transit-dependent) because it's such a piece of crap (shuttle bus transfer to go downtown, to UT, or to the Capitol), the dreams of TOD ALWAYS die on the vine.

It's happened two dozen or more times already in South Florida, along a commuter rail line exactly like what we got suckered into building here.

TOD happens around good quality light rail in other cities. Had we built the 2000 light rail line, it'd be happening by now here; but developers, unlike voters, aren't stupid enough to fall for PR about how many people are willing to take two shuttle bus rides to and from the train station at the Convention Center each and every day.

[tildahat]

I'm a GIS guy at the water utility and can say that it will definitely be awhile. The plans for Mueller phase 1 and 2 are sitting on my desk at work... right at this very moment. Also, they are the "proposed" plans. I should get them entered tomorrow and then who knows how long it will be before construction begins.

Is their current "late 2007/early 2008" for move in remotely realistic?

[jread]

Is their current "late 2007/early 2008" for move in remotely realistic?

I think it possibly is. The approvals and paper-shuffling are what take the most time.... once something is approved, though, it is built rather quickly.

[tildahat]

I think it possibly is. The approvals and paper-shuffling are what take the most time.... once something is approved, though, it is built rather quickly.

They've been sticking with that date for the most part since the "official" marketing has ramped up, even though there are endless delays on when the builders will be announced. Supposedly "before the end of the year" - running out of time guys...

It will be interesting to see which builders are selected. I'd guess at least some overlap with Plum Creek in Kyle, but I hope they are looking nationally, especially for the townhouse segment. I'm sure the first neighborhood will be faux-craftsman, which is OK if it's done well, but maybe later neighborhoods could have other styles...

[Mopacs]

The first major development within Leander's Transit/New Urbanist district has been announced. It is more of a conventional development, due to the topography of the area (the location is very scenic, btw... it overlooks forested South San Gabriel River Valley), but will provide a transition zone to the adjacent urban districts. This is from the Hill Country News.

http://www.hillcountrynews.com/articles/2007/01/29/news/news04.txt

Villas of Messina to get a more breathtaking look

by Ashley Richards, Hill Country News

http://www.hillcountrynews.com/content/articles/2007/01/29/news/news04.jpg

While it is not a “true TOD project,” the mixed-use developer W.Y. Atlantis has plans for the first project within the Leander transit-oriented development.


The 2,300-acre TOD is intended for urban development with a tight grid of blocks, said Pix Howell, Leander urban design officer. The 342 acres of land within the TOD that W.Y. Atlantis is developing has different topography than the remaining acreage, Howell said, and the hills on this piece of land made it impractical to build as specified in the TOD code.

Due to the hills on W.Y. Atlantis' acreage, the developer has more conventional plans for single-family residential units - The Villas of Messina. Allen Jones, W.Y. Atlantis co-owner, said the hilly terrain will work to the developer's advantage, giving residents of The Villas a breathtaking look at the topography.



“One of the best amenities is the Hill Country views,” Jones said. “It's a beautiful piece of property with great topography.”

Because the single-family development breaks the intended use of the TOD, Howell said the developers have worked with the city to create a 90-acre zone that will be developed commercially in order to transition into the urbanized TOD.

“We're pretty excited about it, even though it is conventional,” Howell said. “They've been great to work with. They worked very hard in trying to work with those transitions.”

Howell said that while there are other potential projects on the table (some that have been suggested near the commuter rail stop), having residential development will likely attract more commercial development into the TOD zone.

The developer will also be the first to become involved in the city's tax increment financing, an economic tool that will eventually reimburse the company for its infrastructure costs. The TIF will work by reimbursing W.Y. Atlantis for the infrastructure costs it pays for as other developers come and tie into the lift station, water and/or wastewater lines that the company built.

“The TIF allows developers like us to be more attracted to this area,” Jones said. “Once the values increase and tax revenues increase, that's how we get reimbursed for our expenditures.”

The Villas of Messina will include more than 700 single family homes priced from $200,000 to $400,000 with a $1 million amenity center in the neighborhood. Jones said the subdivision will have a grand entry, clubhouse, pool and splash park. The development will be complimentary to pedestrians, offering a plethora of hike and bike trails that lead to various enclaves, Jones said.

Ten of the 90 commercial acres will be town homes and Jones said there is the potential for multi-family units within The Villas of Messina as well. A 14- acre site has been allotted for a school. Jones said W.Y. Atlantis has been discussing with Leander ISD use of the site as an elementary school.

The development company was first attracted to the area because of the commitments made by the Texas Department of Transportation and the Central Texas Regional Mobility Authority to extend U.S. Highway 183 by the creation of the 183A toll road. Jones said he and co-owner Wyatt Henderson were also pleased by Capitol Metro's commitment to build the commuter rail service that will reach from the Leander TOD to downtown Austin.

“You guys have made such a commitment to this area,” Jones said about the city's work at developing Leander.

The developer and engineers working on The Villas of Messina hope to have model homes prepared by spring 2008.

[M1EK]

This is more accurately described as "TAD" or "transit-adjacent development". No effort's being made to make it more convenient to use transit than the car; no additional density over which one would expect on a similar tract in the area that wasn't on a rail line; etc.

You can have "new urban" without it being "TOD".

[Mopacs]

Crestview Station moves forward with the anouncement of homebuilders. See today's statesman article below...

http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/04/03/3crestview.html

Crestview Station moves forward

Developers of mixed-use community in North Austin name Meritage and Newmark as home builders.

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/09/78/58/image_5258789.jpg

By M.B. Taboada
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Tuesday, April 03, 2007

Plans are picking up speed to turn a former North Austin industrial site into the $200 million Crestview Station, which will be one of Austin's biggest transit-oriented developments.

Meritage Homes and Newmark Homes will build the 450 single-family houses at Crestview Station, where housing, offices and stores will be built on 73 acres once occupied by a Huntsman Corp. research facility.

Developers Stratus Properties Inc. and Trammell Crow Co. are expected to submit a site plan application to the city within the week.
"It will be a catalyst for redevelopment of the area," Stratus CEO Beau Armstrong said Monday.

The project, which is bordered on one side by the future Capital Metro commuter rail line, is designed as a community where people will be able to live, work and shop without having to drive.

A commuter rail station is planned for Lamar and Airport boulevards.
"Crestview Station is probably one of the most exciting projects coming together in Austin right now," said Eric DeJernett, senior vice president and a Crestview project coordinator for Trammell Crow. "People in this area really will be able to live in an environment where they don't have to have a car or at least not have to rely on a car all the time."

The homes will be on narrow lots, 25 to 30 feet wide, and prices will start in the $250,000s, Armstrong said.
High Street Residential, a Trammell Crow subsidiary, will build the multifamily component.

The mix will include live-work units and loft-style apartments.
The project will have about 150,000 square feet of retail and office space.
Developers recently completed a $3 million soil environmental cleanup of the site, bordered by North Lamar Boulevard, Morrow Street and the rail line, and are awaiting a closure letter from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality.

The first phase, which might break ground this summer, will include 300 apartments and 60,000 square feet of retail.
The retail will include restaurants, stores and probably a small grocery market.

The housing is expected to be completed by fall 2008, coinciding with the opening of the rail line.

Other multifamily units will follow market demand and probably will not be built until the first phase is complete.

Crestview "really represents the best practices nationally in urban redevelopment next to a rail station," said City Council Member Brewster McCracken, who is also a Capital Metro board member. "It's important to promote development next to the rail stop. More people will ride the rail if it's done that way."

Developers also will renovate the North Austin Optimist ball fields at the northwest corner of the site, DeJernett said.

Area residents are excited about the transformation of an industrial site into a development that fits into the neighborhood's character.
"It's going to look like a part of town that is in town versus industrial edge of town," said Katrina Daniel, president of the Highland Neighborhood Association, which represents a neighborhood across Lamar from Crestview. "We're excited about all the prospects. . . . Right now, we don't have much to walk to eat or shop. This will afford us those kinds of opportunities."

[pyropius]

What's the status of the streetcar proposal?

[M1EK]

What's the status of the streetcar proposal?

Languishing, since Capital Metro doesn't have nearly enough money to do it, and the city is unconvinced that they ought to kick in the rest. The Feds are unlikely to want to play along to a significant enough degree, but I expect UT will be willing to kick in their share eventually.

Here's my crackplog on Crestview Station, fresh off the keyboard (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000405.html). Pay special attention to the use cases contained within.

[sakyle04]

Here's my crackplog on Crestview Station, fresh off the keyboard. Pay special attention to the use cases contained within.


Very convincing, very well done.

[pyropius]

Well, it's obvious that the 2000 light rail proposal was far superior to the current plan, but if you're building for a market where choice commuters aren't willing to walk more than a quarter or a mile, any transit plan is going to have a hard time. It's not as if the 2000 plan was guaranteed to have been a resounding enough success to mollify the naysayers anyway.

In any case, the 2004 plan, flawed as it is, is being implemented. The task at hand now is to take this as given and make plans incorporating and optimally utilizing it.

As a separate question, what's the difference between a light rail running at grade through downtown, stopping at all the lights, and a streetcar with a dedicated lane running through the same environment? I know the streetcars as planned won't have their own dedicated lanes, but it could be a possibility. Or maybe even there could be a scheme where once the streetcar is two blocks away, lights in the lane flash and you have to leave the lane to make way for the streetcar (at peak times when there is not much time between streetcars these lanes could always be off-limits). The point is, if transit riders perceive streetcars to be better than buses for whatever reason, and if they were built wisely, couldn't they be a second-best solution behind light rail for trips within central Austin?

[M1EK]

Well, it's obvious that the 2000 light rail proposal was far superior to the current plan, but if you're building for a market where choice commuters aren't willing to walk more than a quarter or a mile, any transit plan is going to have a hard time. It's not as if the 2000 plan was guaranteed to have been a resounding enough success to mollify the naysayers anyway.

The 2000 plan went WELL within the magic 1/4 mile of UT, the Capitol, and the parts of downtown where everybody works. It also went close enough to the midtown medical complex, went right by the densest residential (transit-supportive) neighborhoods in the city (The Triangle, Hyde Park, West Campus), and then at Lamar/Airport, it joined the current commuter rail route, heading northwest to pick up all the suburbanites at their park-and-rides.

It was as close to a slam-dunk as you can get in this business.

In any case, the 2004 plan, flawed as it is, is being implemented. The task at hand now is to take this as given and make plans incorporating and optimally utilizing it.

There is no way to optimally use this system. There is no way to fix it. Even a transfer to a new, second, reserved-guideway, rail line would be a substantial disincentive to ridership in a "new start" rail city like ours. (It's even a modest disincentive to ridership in mature-rail driver-hostile cities like New York for gods' sake, and it's comparatively cheap and easy to park in downtown Austin). And we'd never be able to get that magic second line built anyways - the reason the Feds were very willing to kick in their share in 2000 is that the line hit BOTH the suburbs AND the urban center - with just one or the other, there's not enough bang for the buck (which is why Capital Metro didn't get ANY federal funding for the commuter rail line, by the way). And guess what? This commuter rail line is incompatible with light rail ala 2000 - it can't interoperate at all. You can't run those commuter rail trains around corners well enough to run in the street alignments we'd need, and you can't run light rail across Lamar/Airport and then further up Lamar because you tie up the intersection at Lamar/Airport so much of the time that you might as well close the road.

As to why keep talking about it? Well, with people forgetting that this ISN'T light rail (with help from professional misrepresenters like Lyndon Henry), when this thing becomes the obvious 1000-passengers-per-day failure that Capital Metro is preparing for, I want everybody to know that this WASN'T "light rail" and that there WERE people who said it was stupid and wouldn't work so the conventional wisdom doesn't become "rail transit just doesn't work".

As a separate question, what's the difference between a light rail running at grade through downtown, stopping at all the lights, and a streetcar with a dedicated lane running through the same environment? I know the streetcars as planned won't have their own dedicated lanes, but it could be a possibility. Or maybe even there could be a scheme where once the streetcar is two blocks away, lights in the lane flash and you have to leave the lane to make way for the streetcar (at peak times when there is not much time between streetcars these lanes could always be off-limits). The point is, if transit riders perceive streetcars to be better than buses for whatever reason, and if they were built wisely, couldn't they be a second-best solution behind light rail for trips within central Austin?

Light rail would get green lights; never have to worry about the lane being blocked with cars going the same way; etc. This is known as "reserved guideway", one level below "grade-separated" and what has worked in city after city after city in this country in the last 20 years. For medium-length stretches (like Lamar/Airport to downtown) it works fine. You wouldn't want to run this way for 30 miles, but for the last 4 or 5 miles, it works great. It's not quite as good as having fully grade-separated infrastructure (a car going perpendicular that blocks the box could get in the way, but this rarely happens even in Houston).

Streetcars, on the other hand, will be stuck behind the other peoples' cars. On Guadalupe, for instance, quite often you're stuck behind cars that are actually not moving because of a light several intersections up, so even light-holding technology like Rapid Bus will supposedly have if it ever comes here (2010 now the promised start) won't help.

Streetcars also cannot be upgraded to reserved-guideway, at least not in the form we're proposing here, because they will run in the right lane. You can effectively prohibit LEFT turns, but just go ahead and try to prohibit RIGHT turns all the way up and down a major arterial sometime for grins.

[pyropius]

So what do we do now, wait for the commuter line to fail, then in 20-30 years try for light rail again?

[pyropius]

Or are you secretly a PRT proponent, M1EK? ;)

[alexjon]

Well, unless Austin pulls out a massive when, this bodes well for a LRT transition for SA after the BRT system gets up and running.

I think

[M1EK]

So what do we do now, wait for the commuter line to fail, then in 20-30 years try for light rail again?

I know you were joking, but that's pretty much it. By highlighting the flaws in the system now, I'm hoping to lessen the "dark ages" from 20 years to a mere 5 or 10.

[jmanh]

I'm a bit more optimistic than you are about the commuter rail system's prospects for success. But, obviously, it will all come down to how we define success.

In the central area of Austin, the two major employers are UT and the State. A major problem here is that thousands of UT staff and State employees are not paid all that well. Their salaries have not kept pace with the increasing real estate prices in Austin. Obviously, many workers have kids and want to raise them in nice neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the areas that are currently affordable for them tend to be in distant locations like Leander and Bastrop.

Commuter rail will give these people a more affordable way to get to work, especially given the trend in gas prices. It will allow many of current two-car families to save money by getting rid of the car that was mainly used for the commute. The system will also result in taking some cars off the congested roads.

You are right -- we're not talking about light rail here. The new system will be most beneficial for the folks who live far away in places like Leander. As one moves in closer, both bus and car transportation become better options.

[M1EK]

I'm a bit more optimistic than you are about the commuter rail system's prospects for success. But, obviously, it will all come down to how we define success.

In the central area of Austin, the two major employers are UT and the State. A major problem here is that thousands of UT staff and State employees are not paid all that well. Their salaries have not kept pace with the increasing real estate prices in Austin. Obviously, many workers have kids and want to raise them in nice neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the areas that are currently affordable for them tend to be in distant locations like Leander and Bastrop.

Commuter rail will give these people a more affordable way to get to work, especially given the trend in gas prices. It will allow many of current two-car families to save money by getting rid of the car that was mainly used for the commute. The system will also result in taking some cars off the congested roads.

You are right -- we're not talking about light rail here. The new system will be most beneficial for the folks who live far away in places like Leander. As one moves in closer, both bus and car transportation become better options.

Dude. Really. You have got to read up on the system. Start with my crackplog from yesterday which has some use cases from Crestview Station to Capitol/UT (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000405.html#comments).

A downtown worker, if they were particularly enamored of long walks, could make SOME use of this thing, but UT/Capitol workers will be far better suited staying on the current express buses - which will be quicker (once you count the shuttle bus part of their trip), more reliable (again, count the shuttle bus part), and more comfortable (no transfer; one seat ride; much nicer bus than the shuttle will be).

The express buses already take them directly to their workplace. I know; I've ridden them extensively (in the other direction of course).

All you need to know is summed up in Ben Wear's article from a few weeks ago (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000386.html): Capital Metro is planning for 1000 riders per day at most. That's pathetic for a rail start in this country, even worse then I had imagined.

[jmanh]

There's an express bus from Leander to the UT/Downtown area?

Regardless, I'd be interested in seeing you develop a use case for the Leander - Downtown commute. I looked at the use cases you've already written. Leander and Crestview are not exactly adjacent areas.

[M1EK]

There's an express bus from Leander to the UT/Downtown area?

Yes, several in fact (http://www.capmetro.org/riding/routes_900.asp). Very popular. Fairly good service - most runs use nice touring buses and have Wifi. Costs twice the regular bus fare.

Regardless, I'd be interested in seeing you develop a use case for the Leander - Downtown commute. I looked at the use cases you've already written. Leander and Crestview are not exactly adjacent areas.

Way ahead of you - I did these in 2005:

Use cases from Leander (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000226.html)

Hyde Park to downtown (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000227.html)

Reverse commutes (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000230.html)

[pyropius]

I know you were joking, but that's pretty much it. By highlighting the flaws in the system now, I'm hoping to lessen the "dark ages" from 20 years to a mere 5 or 10.

Well, at least there's light at the end of the tunnel. By that time people should be fed up with the congestion and willing to consider other rail options.

[Lextx97]

Way ahead of you - I did these in 2005:

Use cases from Leander (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000226.html)

Hyde Park to downtown (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000227.html)

Reverse commutes (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000230.html)

Good work. Could you do a break down of the time estimates for each of the steps in your use cases (i.e 1-W-2-W-3-P, etc.)? EDIT: I see you partly did it on your "Reverse" commutes case.

The impression that I'm getting from the rail critics is that commuting Austinites are lazy, fat asses who don't like to walk, would be bothered by making more than one stop and would prefer to have their mode of transportation drop them off at the front steps of their place of work in half the time it takes to drive to work. Correct? ;)

By the way, I don't necessarily disagree with the assessment above that was made partly in jest. I would likely take the commuter rail if I lived in Leander to get downtown, but I don't mind a longer commute because I can get work done on the train or bus, and I don't mind walking. And, it would likely save me a bundle in gas money. Meh, but that's just me.

[pyropius]

I have the hunch that if congestion and commute times get bad enough (as they are predicted to) then walking a half of a mile and transferring once won't seem so bad. But it will take a few years before this is the case.

[M1EK]

Good work. Could you do a break down of the time estimates for each of the steps in your use cases (i.e 1-W-2-W-3-P, etc.)? EDIT: I see you partly did it on your "Reverse" commutes case.

The impression that I'm getting from the rail critics is that commuting Austinites are lazy, fat asses who don't like to walk, would be bothered by making more than one stop and would prefer to have their mode of transportation drop them off at the front steps of their place of work in half the time it takes to drive to work. Correct? ;)

No. Austinites are likely not significantly MORE likely than transit patrons in the rest of the country to want to walk more than a quarter-mile to/from the transit stop. And yes, Austinites aren't significantly more likely than transit patrons in the rest of the country to be too stupid to check their watch while they're riding.

You ignore the transit "rules of thumb" at your own peril. South Florida certainly did.

[M1EK]

By the way, I don't necessarily disagree with the assessment above that was made partly in jest. I would likely take the commuter rail if I lived in Leander to get downtown, but I don't mind a longer commute because I can get work done on the train or bus, and I don't mind walking. And, it would likely save me a bundle in gas money. Meh, but that's just me.

Then you should try out the express bus today. It's likely to be no slower than the stupid "fast train plus slow shuttle bus" combination, and it takes you straight there in a one-seat ride.

[M1EK]

I have the hunch that if congestion and commute times get bad enough (as they are predicted to) then walking a half of a mile and transferring once won't seem so bad. But it will take a few years before this is the case.

While the walk time will stay constant, just remember that as car traffic gets slower, so will the shuttle bus.

[tildahat]

They've been sticking with that date for the most part since the "official" marketing has ramped up, even though there are endless delays on when the builders will be announced. Supposedly "before the end of the year" - running out of time guys...

It will be interesting to see which builders are selected. I'd guess at least some overlap with Plum Creek in Kyle, but I hope they are looking nationally, especially for the townhouse segment. I'm sure the first neighborhood will be faux-craftsman, which is OK if it's done well, but maybe later neighborhoods could have other styles...

Well, I have to say I was mostly right on the faux-craftsman, Meritage in particular does stuff in Plum Creek. There is a disappointing amount of standard suburban looking stuff and I'm not sure how good the faux-craftsman plans will look. I've seen it done well and done so badly it's comical. Timing actually looks like it's going to happen - I went to one of the affordable housing seminars and they think people will start moving in November through early next year.

I have to say, Catellus has been mind-bogglingly disorganized in getting information out, as have the builders. One builder said low 200s and then *after* people had put in their $50 and had a hard pull on their credit, they said $260s. WTF? Anyway, the affordable session I went to had a lot of angry people – for one thing there may be limits on how much profit you can take from selling an affordable home after one year. But no one knows how much of for how long. 1 year? 5 years? 10? Seems like they ought to have that worked out by now. Also, though it’s supposed to be affordable for “less than 80% of median income”, I suspect it’s more like 70-80% with good credit and not a lot of debt, in other words a pretty limited pool. That combined with the general frustration with bad information makes me think the number of applicants isn’t going to be nearly what I thought. My family fits that limited pool, providing we can prequalify despite having a current mortgage, so maybe it’s more like a 1 in 5 chance (or better) than a 1 in 30, like I was guessing. Guess we’ll find out in May….

[pyropius]

M1EK, I read through parts of your blog, and wow, that's depressing. It's depressing because it's so convincing. Oh well, I hope Austin finds its urban transit solution eventually.

[M1EK]

M1EK, I read through parts of your blog, and wow, that's depressing. It's depressing because it's so convincing. Oh well, I hope Austin finds its urban transit solution eventually.

I'm now pondering making every fifth post a picture of some fluffy bunnies or something (or my fluffy-bunny-like Bichon, at least).

[alexjon]

I wanted to bring up a point about the walk and all, mentioning how I always walk with a group of people a little over half a mile to my apartment from the MAX station up here (which is pretty far out), but I forgot the weather factor and the condition of the neighborhoods around the stations, etc. out in austin

[M1EK]

I wanted to bring up a point about the walk and all, mentioning how I always walk with a group of people a little over half a mile to my apartment from the MAX station up here (which is pretty far out), but I forgot the weather factor and the condition of the neighborhoods around the stations, etc. out in austin

The rule of thumb is for the majority of office workers on an "every day" commute. IE, I walked to Lamar/38th (a mile) a few times to take the bus on days when I couldn't get my bike going for some reason, but I wouldn't do it every day.

This doesn't mean some people won't do it some of the time. It DOES mean that people have figured out after many, many, many successes and failures, that the dude in the suit better be a quarter-mile or less from his office or he's just going to drive.

[M1EK]

On the subject of our wonderful DMUs, and the lack of possibilities it presents us to ever extend the crappy starter line somewhere where people might actually want to go, I hath crackplogged (http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000407.html).

[Mopacs]

From Community Impact Newspapers:

http://www.impactnews.com/www/docs/183.875#tod

Officials to discuss transit-oriented development planning

With commuter rail expected by the end of 2008, the community has a chance to learn now how it can affect the areas surrounding future rail stops and what opportunities exist for development in close proximity to rail.

The City of Austin and national planning consultant representatives will discuss Transit Oriented Development (TOD) and station area planning at 6 p.m. April 4 at the University of Texas Thompson Conference Center, Room 3.102.

City planners will present the upcoming process for visioning and planning areas near commuter rail stops and how the public will have input. Officials say the April 4 session is especially important for those who live or have businesses near future rail stops at Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard, Plaza Saltillo and Lamar Boulevard, but all are welcome to come and learn about TOD.

Later meetings will focus on gathering public commentary and will involve the public in hands-on planning of specific station areas.
The Conference Center is at 2405 Robert Dedmon Drive at the southwest corner of Dean Keaton and Red River streets. Bus routes to the Conference Center are Nos. 15, 20, 21 and 22.

For more information on Transit Oriented Development or to get on a contact list to stay informed, contact Sonya Lopez, City of Austin Neighborhood Planning and Zoning Department, at (512) 974-7694 or sonya.lopez@ci.austin.tx.us.
Information is also available at the TOD Web site: www.cityofaustin.org/planning/tod (http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/planning/tod)
Read more about the Transit Oreinted Development here (http://www.impactnews.com/www/docs/121.1433).