[miketoronto]

We all know that the Greater Toronto region is suffering from massive urban sprawl problems. We can talk all we want about how much denser our suburbs are. But at the end of the day, the GTA is chocking in sprawl. Downtown Toronto is seeing less and less of the business growth, and millions of sq feet of office space is opening up in Toronto's 905 belt.

So instead of sprawl, why can't Toronto send some growth to Hamilton.

Many people often site that Toronto is just to expensive for some business to open up offices.

So what if downtown Hamilton captured some of the growth instead of suburban office parks?

Just think if the governments worked together, and pushed most of the job growth into downtown Toronto and Hamilton.

What do you guys think of that. Do you think it would work to turn downtown Hamilton into the second corporate place after downtown Toronto.

Do you think a plan like that could work?

Instead of sprawl, it would be great to see T.O. take on the NYC way of doing things where they have Manhattan and then downtowns in area cities like Newark, and Jersey City taking up positions as second business centres.


I think it would make more sense to send some business to Hamilton then to have them set up shop in the 905 belt.

My friend and I drove through Markham the other night, and it is just freaky how much office buildings(normal office buildings, not offices attached to manufacturing) are going up.


But just think of the alternative. Downtown Toronto and Hamilton. To strong downtown corporate addresses, connected by high-speed GO TRAIN service :)

Could work very well.

[waterloowarrior]

what about downtown mississuaga? that's even closer to Toronto than Hamilton. brampton has direct train to its downtown.. or vaughn, they are getting the subway there. Markham also has GO and YRT!

won't concentrating things in downtown hamilton mean more sprawl along the qew, highway 6, 403, and 8 :p hamilton doesn't even have lrt or subway, go service is terrible, won't that just mean people will drive to their jobs?

edit: oh yeah..... 'hi', Toronto + Hamilton = good, rest of 905 = bad/sprawl/leeches, scarborough = urban, scarborough town centre > downtown missisauga , "you guys don't care about the city like I do", downtown is dying etc etc etc ;)

[waterloowarrior]

ps the solution to where growth will go has already been thought up by the ON government

http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/index.html

check out the numbers here.. I don't think you'll be very happy.
http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/gghdocs/FPLAN-ENG-WEB-SCHED3.pdf

[flar]

White collar people seem to generally like suburban areas. They're easily accessible by car and close to where they live. That's why there are lots of offices along the QEW. Offices in skyscrapers in downtown Toronto have prestige, but Hamilton doesn't offer that kind of prestige in many social circles.

[raisethehammer]

plus Hamilton doesn't have enough Wendy's or Kelsey's restaurants to suit the fine dining tastes of the white collar business park worker.

[SteelTown]

There's a reason why companies like Tim Horton's and AIG Insurance located their head offices in the GTA. AIG Insurance actually wanted to locate in Hamilton but they found Hamilton doesn't have good transit connections with Toronto so instead they decided to locate in Burlington which has 24hrs GO Transit. That's the same story for Wescam. Wescam and AIG head office are neighbours too. FedEx just recently located their head office in Burlington even though they use Hamilton Airport for cargo. CargoJet again uses Hamilton Airport but head office is in Mississagua. BIOX has their company in Hamilton but head office is in Oakville. I could go on and on and on but I'll stop lol.

[MolsonExport]

I don't get it. You have started several threads lamenting the 'hollowing-out' of downtown Tarrana, to the benefit of the 905. Now you propose exporting more to Hamilton?

[raisethehammer]

good point about head offices never being in the Hammer.
I was being more sarcastic than anything in regards to Wendy's etc.... I do think this is a good idea.
If business feels they must leave downtown TO, why not have them set up shop in downtown Hamilton? Makes sense. Doesn't result in sprawl or more farmland paving. Transit would have to be increased...although from what I'm hearing here it sounds like Hamilton needs to get the transit problem fixed before these companies will come.
Steeltown isn't kidding - he could go on and on with companies that have plants in Hamilton and head offices outside the city. It's insane.
Two strong urban centres along the Lakeshore GO line would make more sense than sprawling all the way up to Barrie.

[caltrane74]

huh? - miketoronto does it agian.

[raisethehammer]

some real intelligent posts on this thing....

[WhipperSnapper]

If business feels they must leave downtown TO, why not have them set up shop in downtown Hamilton? Makes sense. Doesn't result in sprawl or more farmland paving.

WTF?

Intensification, in the billions of dollars, is occuring thoughout the 905 and the Hamilton metro is hardly an urban mecca (just look at the rough condition of your central downtown)

[WZ1]

I think it makes sense. Why pump up the suburbs when you have a urban core with very good transit links and the best location in southern Ontario to build.. Hamilton is 40 mins from Toronto, 40 Mins from Buffalo, 2.5 hours from Detroit, 45 mins from K_W and Guelph.. 1 hour from London...

[J. Will]

I would disagree that Hamilton has "very good transit links". Maybe with the rest of Hamilton, but that's about it, and that's not where head-office types tend to live.

Also, why would these suburbs want to give up potential growth to Hamilton? They'd lose out on millions of tax dollars.

[SteelTown]

Hamilton is a hub, gateway to the Niagara region and the GTA, but not public transit link. Hamilton has rail, air, water and highways. But what's lacking is government support for public transit. There is a company that would like to create a GO Ferry service but usual people shoot it down as being too ambitious or something.

[realcity]

Downtown Mississauga? If there is one it's a mall.

http://ct.pbase.com/v3/05/470905/1/44722911.P1140008.jpg
http://k43.pbase.com/v3/05/470905/2/45059492.Stitched_002a.jpg

[Taller Better]

I don't get it either, Mike. You exaggerate imaginary problems in Toronto by blowing out of proportion the flow of businesses to and from the suburbs. How can you "send business" to any place? Business decides where it wants to set up. Every downtown of every city has to work hard to keep business there and not have it move away, but frankly you have a negative obsession worrying about any business that sets up in the suburbs because it is more suitable for them out there. The metropolitan city is an organism, like a body, and the suburbs are still part of the healthy body. Suburbs of Toronto aren't different planets, or cities in different provinces.

[shappy]

Do you think a plan like that could work?

what plan? Mike, you're a hack... it's clear you know nothing about this stuff at all. I mean, the actually nitty gritty practical stuff. Nothing. None of your contributions have any basis in reality. You're just floating around in space somewhere desperately trying to make a contribution. Come down to earth, learn discipline, and then make your mark on the world.

[raisethehammer]

speaking of 'hacks' I can't believe what I just read - "How can you "send business" to any place? Business decides where it wants to set up."

I'll tell you how - stop subsidizing sprawl. stop having the government pay for mega-highways in order to make this sprawl somewhat livable. Start charging more than 15 or 20% of the development costs to developers - try 75 -80%.
hamilton's urban core is in 'rough' condition because the downtown businesses and residents have subsidized sprawl for 3 decades...and lo and behold, there's no money in the city coffers.
Cities should determine where growth and business will go. Business will go where it's cheap and convenient. Right now that is on productive farmland because our governments are so far in the sack with them they won't make proper planning choices for our cities.
Business should be flocking to downtown Toronto and Hamilton, not leaving for no-man's land.

[waterloowarrior]

Downtown Mississauga? If there is one it's a mall.



I was just trying to point out some of miketo's anti 905 suburban hate... somehow things are better if they are in Toronto's boundaries (ie Scarborough town centre), and somehow to avoid urban sprawl it's better to build farther away from Toronto than in an area much closer to the core with a large residential and large nearby office population (and future LRT/GO connections). I have nothing against Hamilton :)

[Tony]

MIKETORONTO PLEASE LOOK:

ps the solution to where growth will go has already been thought up by the ON government

http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/index.html

check out the numbers here.. I don't think you'll be very happy.
http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/gghdocs/FPLAN-ENG-WEB-SCHED3.pdf

[Taller Better]

speaking of 'hacks' I can't believe what I just read - "How can you "send business" to any place? Business decides where it wants to set up."

I'll tell you how - stop subsidizing sprawl. stop having the government pay for mega-highways in order to make this sprawl somewhat livable. Start charging more than 15 or 20% of the development costs to developers - try 75 -80%.
hamilton's urban core is in 'rough' condition because the downtown businesses and residents have subsidized sprawl for 3 decades...and lo and behold, there's no money in the city coffers.
Cities should determine where growth and business will go. Business will go where it's cheap and convenient. Right now that is on productive farmland because our governments are so far in the sack with them they won't make proper planning choices for our cities.
Business should be flocking to downtown Toronto and Hamilton, not leaving for no-man's land.



??? And what does any of that have to do with my statement? I was not saying you cannot attract or keep business in downtown Toronto, I was saying you cannot just approach business and ask them to relocate (hence the word "send" not "attract") to Hamilton. Had you read my next sentence:"Every downtown of every city has to work hard to keep business there and not have it move away" maybe you would not have become so befuddled. If Hamilton wants to attract business, good on 'em, and I wish them luck. I do not understand how we are going to "send" it to them.

[J. Will]

>>speaking of 'hacks' I can't believe what I just read - "How can you "send business" to any place?<<

I get the impression mike wishes we were a communist country. The businesses and people will go where the government says damnit!

[raisethehammer]

We aren't 'communist' in Canada, but we have socialism for the rich.
You and I work our butts off everyday and then our governments (at all levels) take that money and subsidize a multi-billion dollor corporations move to a piece of productive farmland instead of setting proper rules and tax structures that would result in many more of them locating in downtowns and urban areas.
Perhaps the word 'send' isn't the right one to use. But that's what we are doing right now. You and I are paying the fees and in essense we are 'sending' these companies to ridiculous places they wouldn't have dreamt of going to 50 years ago.
Fix the tax and fee structures and a byproduct will be 'sending', 'attracting' -whatever word you want to use - new companies into our cities, not out of them.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

<editted by moderator> Ok, that was kinda entertaining in a messed-up kinda way but not really necessary. k-thx.

[raisethehammer]

oh c'mon! What did that last post say? Must have been good if it was edited...put it back up Mr Moderator...we're all big people. lol.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

oh c'mon! What did that last post say? Must have been good if it was edited...put it back up Mr Moderator...we're all big people. lol.



Oh it was, and extraordinarily tasteful I might point out. But I have to respect the mods judgment so I won’t repost the link to the screaming computer kid at youtube ;)

Is anything on this site ever truly necessary?

[Doady]

Downtown Mississauga? If there is one it's a mall.

There are probably more people living and working in Mississauga City Centre than there are in Downtown Hamilton. Mississauga certainly does have more people using transit than Hamilton does. Hamilton is too far for most people in the GTA to commute to anyways.

[miketoronto]

First of all you guys read way to much negative into my posts. I did not say we are going to tell business where to locate.

What I mean is, we should have programs or something in place to encourage business to locate in places like Hamilton.

Yeah we are skipping Mississauga City Centre on the way. But who cares. Its not a real downtown and never will be. Plus its only 20min from downtown Toronto, meaning we don't need another downtown so close.

The whole idea of building up Hamilton, is to revive the core, and provide a place for secondary business that are not going to locate in the centre of downtown Toronto.

But it still is a benefit, because atleast we are putting business into already built up urban areas, and real downtowns with connections etc.

Ontop of that, we can focus transit more if we are taking people to real downtowns, and not trying to get them to every single suburb out there.

I really don't see the why you guys have an issue with encouraging more business to locate in our cities, instead of trying to recreate downtown in the suburbs(and lets just admit that plan has failed as the traffic shows).

We should promote the real urban centres we have. And I think Hamilton would be an amazing place to encourage business development in the core.

After that is done, then work on Oshawa.

For a forum with people who care about cities I really do find it interesting how many of you support the growth of our suburbs instead of promoting our existing downtowns.

[waterloowarrior]

Yeah we are skipping Mississauga City Centre on the way. But who cares. Its not a real downtown and never will be. Plus its only 20min from downtown Toronto, meaning we don't need another downtown so close.



Instead of sprawl, it would be great to see T.O. take on the NYC way of doing things where they have Manhattan and then downtowns in area cities like Newark, and Jersey City taking up positions as second business centres


Jersey City is 10 minutes from Manhattan, Newark is about 20 minutes

your 905 suburban belt hate makes no sense

[miketoronto]

Jersey City is 10 minutes from Manhattan, Newark is about 20 minutes

your 905 suburban belt hate makes no sense

Jersey City and Newark are real cities that developed on their own, and have real downtowns and history. They where not suburbs like Mississauga that came into being as bedroom communities to the main city, and then decided they had to try to pretend they where not part of the main city and build a downtown thats just a mall.

Big difference between Jersey City and Mississauga or Markham.

I will have issues with the 905 if I want(I like the old parts of 905 like downtown Burlington) :) The 905 has done nothing to add to the vibrancy of Toronto or to help built a great urban region. Instead it has added traffic congestion, eaten business away from downtown Toronto, and a list of other issues I will not get into on this thread.

So yes I would push for development to go to downtown Hamilton or Toronto over the 905 suburbs anyday. The suburbs have gotten enough of the pie. Its time to focus on our cities again and revive areas like downtown Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

Mike said - "I really don't see the why you guys have an issue with encouraging more business to locate in our cities, instead of trying to recreate downtown in the suburbs(and lets just admit that plan has failed as the traffic shows)."

Sadly, southern Ontario - especially the GTA - has decided to copy Los Angeles with our growth patterns....apparently people don't mind the traffic and pollution.
We're one of the largest economic regions in the world and one of worst planned and certainly one of the dumbest.
I can forgive L.A. They had nobody go before them to show what not to do.
We have, yet still ignore it and subsidize sprawl.
i'm all for subsidizing urban revitalization. at least it's growing where we should be.

[waterloowarrior]

once again

the solution to where growth in the Greater golden horseshoe will go has already been thought up by the ON government

http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/index.html
http://www.pir.gov.on.ca/english/growth/ggh_plan.htm

especially check out the urban growth centres map.. with this plan, Ontario is encouraging intensification and urban revitalization

Municipalities have to change their Official Plans to comply with this. Any decisions under the Planning Act or the Condominium Act also have to conform to this. If a municipal bylaw or Official Plan conflicts with this, the growth plan will prevail.


I went to a presentation on the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe by the MPIR for world town planning day... great stuff! They have some really nice booklets available with the types of development they are looking for. It might be on the website.

[WhipperSnapper]

not this fuckin bullshit again


1. Farming is the most subsidized industry in Southern Ontario
2. The 416 is hardly subsidizing the 905 (however those in the old city ARE subsidized the poorly planned, thoroughly suburban Scaborough)
3. Pretty much all of the commercial growth in the 905 is through intensification
4. Only a small percentage of the GTA's total productivity is financially viable in an urban, high density format

We're one of the largest economic regions in the world and one of worst planned and certainly one of the dumbest

5.miketoronto has a new contender

[raisethehammer]

yea, you're right...those farmers have it made.
We treat them like crap and keep their land values completely worthless until some suit comes along with a plan to wipe everything out and build some cardboard McMansions, then suddenly the land value skyrockets. We allow cheap, unhealthy imports from all over the world (food imports) while local farmers barely make enough to live off of.

I don't live in Toronto, so don't know all the ins and outs of the 416-905 thing....but in Hamilton (all 905) the urban city subsidizes the suburbs.
Also, in Hamilton, the agriculture industry is a $1 billion per year industry. it needs to be nurtured, not paved over and taxed to death. Let's start taxing all the McCrappers and Burger Kings, not the local Ma and Pa shops to death.

[waterloowarrior]

yea, you're right...those farmers have it made.
We treat them like crap and keep their land values completely worthless until some suit comes along with a plan to wipe everything out and build some cardboard McMansions, then suddenly the land value skyrockets. We allow cheap, unhealthy imports from all over the world (food imports) while local farmers barely make enough to live off of.


The market actually determines land values for agriculutral land around the city, in anticipation for development (at least according to Sinclair). Many of the fields around the GTA are already owned by large developers or are being held by "farmers" who join together to protect their right to sell it. What "we" actually do is lessen the value of farmland by implementing greenbelts and restricting rezoning and subdividing with the PPS (the purpose of which is to prevent urban sprawl).

edit: though I agree that our farmers need more support from the government and that we shouldn't rely so much on importing food... but some of that is more related to free trade rules than to urban expansion.


Also, in Hamilton, the agriculture industry is a $1 billion per year industry. it needs to be nurtured, not paved over and taxed to death. Let's start taxing all the McCrappers and Burger Kings, not the local Ma and Pa shops to deathMost of these places are actually run by local franchisees, people from within the communities... but I guess chains are evil and non-chains are good so tax tax tax, right?. (I'm sure large Canadian corporations like cara and couche tard, and foreign MNCs will appreciate that)

[raisethehammer]

first of all, apologies to Waterloo Warrior....he's been the only one who's come on here and made any sense, but we've all just kept ignoring him/her and rambling on.... regarding Places to Grow, I like the plan, although they'll need better legislations and taxing changing to make it happen...but you're right. This is probably a good plan to work from - mostly intensification along transit/highway nodes with mixed-use development so people can live and work in the same area.

[tokie]

I don't live in Toronto, so don't know all the ins and outs of the 416-905 thing....but in Hamilton (all 905) the urban city subsidizes the suburbs.
Also, in Hamilton, the agriculture industry is a $1 billion per year industry. it needs to be nurtured, not paved over and taxed to death. Let's start taxing all the McCrappers and Burger Kings, not the local Ma and Pa shops to death.

That statement about downtown Hamilton subsidizing the 'burbs is just plain wrong. Places like Dundas and Ancaster get basically nothing from Hamilton, yet give so much in taxes... near the highest property tax rates in the country.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

plus Hamilton doesn't have enough Wendy's or Kelsey's restaurants to suit the fine dining tastes of the white collar business park worker.

No but if these businesses moved to Hamilton from Toronto you would see more of these types of restaurants open up in the downtown core.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

First of all you guys read way to much negative into my posts. I did not say we are going to tell business where to locate.

What I mean is, we should have programs or something in place to encourage business to locate in places like Hamilton.

Yeah we are skipping Mississauga City Centre on the way. But who cares. Its not a real downtown and never will be. Plus its only 20min from downtown Toronto, meaning we don't need another downtown so close.

The whole idea of building up Hamilton, is to revive the core, and provide a place for secondary business that are not going to locate in the centre of downtown Toronto.

But it still is a benefit, because atleast we are putting business into already built up urban areas, and real downtowns with connections etc.

Ontop of that, we can focus transit more if we are taking people to real downtowns, and not trying to get them to every single suburb out there.

I really don't see the why you guys have an issue with encouraging more business to locate in our cities, instead of trying to recreate downtown in the suburbs(and lets just admit that plan has failed as the traffic shows).

We should promote the real urban centres we have. And I think Hamilton would be an amazing place to encourage business development in the core.

After that is done, then work on Oshawa.

For a forum with people who care about cities I really do find it interesting how many of you support the growth of our suburbs instead of promoting our existing downtowns.

I could see something like this working maybe if Hamlton were to join up with Toronto and be a part of their city which has been brought up before HOWEVER, you would have a very hard time of encouraging Hamiltonians to join up with Metro Toronto....that's usually followed up by the OSKEE WEE WEE, OSKIE WAH WAH Hamilton Tiger-Cats fight song.:haha:

[roch5220]

Wow, what a way to ENHANCE the problem. GTA has sprawl problems. Why not encourage more business to locate in Hamilton, which will create more sprawl issues around Hamilton. Next, lets do it around Oshawa to complete the problem. You never thought that this solution would just add more sprawl?

By encouraging even more business to locate in Toronto, especially downtown, is allows construction of rapid transit lines more cost effective. Instead, your going to make more cost prohibited to provide rapid transit lines as instead of focusing on one core and bringing everybody in, you have a split 2 cores and you'll have even more land taken up even more around hamilton from new subdivisions.

[flar]

Hamilton is boxed in by the greenbelt so it can't sprawl very much more than it has. Also, lower Hamilton is already very densely built, but underutilized, and is a natural candidate for efficient rapid transit and intensive development.

[raisethehammer]

I live in downtown Hamilton and pay higher taxes than people in Dundas and Ancaster.
And have been told by various city department heads that our tax money generally goes into a pot for 'city-wide' projects....for example, the rent money the city collects at the baseball field at Victoria Park - we asked "where does this money go?". We were told about the 'big pot'.
So we asked, where has it gone over the past decade. The sheepish answer - new parks in subdivisions and outlying suburbs.
Meanwhile old ladies break their ankles trying to navigate the moon-surface style pathways in Victoria park while some joe in Ancaster has a new slab of green in the middle of their neighbourhood thanks to my neighbourhood.
That's just one example. I could fill up the pages of this forum with many others....downtown business subsidizing the big chains in the burbs etc.....
Ancaster is taxed high because they've allowed money-draining sprawl to take over a once-fine town. I still pay about 40-60% more for a small downtown home.

[roch5220]

Hamilton is boxed in by the greenbelt so it can't sprawl very much more than it has. Also, lower Hamilton is already very densely built, but underutilized, and is a natural candidate for efficient rapid transit and intensive development.

Still, you need ridership to make the grade. 10K peak trips per hour tend to be the benchmark for LRT, which even the busiest routes going through high population density areas in Toronto (ie. Don Mills/Thorncliffe) don't make it - even though building there could spur additional ridership. Rapid transit routes into hamilton still couldn't generate the ridership to pass off anything other than maybe a YRT style bus system. And when I mean rapid transit, I mean inner city network.

http://ourgreenbelt.ca/about

But based upon the greenbelt map, there is room for Hamilton to sprawl even further outside of its immediate borders. When that is filled up, there is incentive for additional development outside of the greenbelt area, as the map shows. These areas are still within reasonable commutting distance (ie. the landlocked areas (landlacked by the greenbelt), its no further than people commutting from Oakville to Toronto. And People would moved to those areas because the price will be right.

[flar]

Hamilton isn't forecast to grow that much that it will need to sprawl beyond the greenbelt. Also working against sprawl is provincial legislation that 40% of new developement occur in alredy built areas by 2015. The density target for downtown Hamlton is 200 people and jobs per hectare, which is the same as for downtown Oshawa, Burlington, etc (for comparison, the target is 400 for downtown and other major nodes within TO). Toronto is still the centrepeice of the greater golden horseshoe, Hamilton is just one of many growth centres. This is all according to the provincial government's Places to Grow plan. Also, bus rapid transit is already being planned for Hamilton which will be integrated with intercity transit (GO) in the future.

[roch5220]

^^^ Don't forget that we were talking in the context of shifting some business to hamilton to 'reduce sprawl'. So in terms of growth, I am talking about the related growth that would accompany.