[Coldrsx]

^amen...

I think the best part of Boston, apart from the architecture, was how proud every single one of them was about their city and wanted everyone to come see their museums, arenas, stadiums, etc. etc.

[Jasper and one o nin]

If you look at Robert F Kennedy Stadium in Washington, it is an integral part of the overall city plan. It is at the terminus of E. Capitol Street which runs into the capitol building, the mall, the washington monument, WWII memorial, and the lincoln mem. The point is, that a sports arena/stadium can be a very important part of the city's urban plan

[Coldrsx]

^that it can... and that is why i wish the stadium to be on 104ave/101st or on the BP's lands rather than the quarters to be honest.

[Coldrsx]

Architect's proposal surprises council
Caterina put off by pitch for arena at hearing
Jamie Hall, The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:31 am
Architect Gene Dub said his surprise presentation at a public hearing Monday night was his "last chance" to make his vision for a downtown arena known to city council.
Dub said the plan was discussed "months ago" with a representative from the Katz Group on behalf of Edmonton Oilers' owner Daryl Katz, and the city's planning department.
"We haven't been getting any feedback (from planners), so this was the last chance for us to make our project known to council," said Dub, who said he made the presentation on behalf of himself and nine other property owners in the area.

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Dub's proposal, which seemed to catch councillors off guard, would see the arena built south of police headquarters on about two hectares of land and act as a focal point for revitalizing the rundown east side of downtown.
"It's worth noting that the area we're looking at is just parking lots," Dub said Tuesday.
One of the proposed arena's unique features is a third-level hockey rink that would leave space open underneath for traffic and pedestrians to pass through and shop during the summer.
Dub said the idea for an elevated ice surface came out of a "brainstorming session" in his office. "It was just something we did," he said. "It's not something we've seen elsewhere.
"We also realized that access would be quite important, so we designed ramps up to ice level so trucks could get to ice level for concerts or hockey games."
At least one city councillor thought Dub's appearance at the public hearing was inappropriate.
"It certainly was a surprise," said Coun. Tony Caterina, "given the venue and the fact we were there to discuss the Quarters, which is a plan on how to develop more affordable housing in the city.
"I think it was out of context for Mr. Dub to use that opportunity to promote his own lands and his own business."
Caterina said Dub's proposal lacked detail, and he also took issue with the price tag of $300 million, which he said "doesn't make a lot of sense."
A March report from a committee struck by Mayor Stephen Mandel estimated the cost to be closer to $450 million, a price that doesn't include the land or the necessary infrastructure.
Coun. Don Iveson called Dub's proposal "interesting," and said his appearance before council Monday was "relevant" because the architect owns land in the area being discussed for redevelopment.
"I'm not sure we were the audience for it, though," said Iveson. "I think ultimately the decision to build another rink anywhere is first a question for whatever private entities might want to assemble the rink and pay for it.
"Certainly, I've been clear that that shouldn't be the city." Any formal application for an arena anywhere in the city would involve a land use application process which would be "a separate exercise," Iveson said.
Dub wouldn't say how much money he has invested in the project thus far, and said at this point it is "strictly an idea."
"It's really up to the Katz Group to make the idea a reality. They're the only tenant in town that can support an arena."
That won't happen anytime soon, according to a spokesman for the Katz Group. "It's still very early in the process," said Josh Pekarsky, "but we are evaluating a number of potential options for the site and design of a downtown arena complex."
jhall@thejournal.canwest.com


© The Edmonton Journal 2008

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=b1026eed-60c7-45b2-ae0c-3056b5e49e0b

[Coldrsx]

Big proposal requires big thinking
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 3:32 am
It's nice to see Gene Dub continuing with the creative process as he puts out a concept for a hockey arena in the downtown. I am all for increased density and urban core renewal.
But not one penny of public money should go into this business property development. This is all about investing money for a private business.
And forget the rhetoric about how tax money is needed because of the spinoff economic benefits created by a professional sports team with a multimillion-dollar payroll.

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D.A. Taylor,
Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2008

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/letters/story.html?id=f8e4e36e-87b9-4da3-a35c-b3642ccf3ffd

[Coldrsx]

i like the cut of this guys jib
----------------------------------

Big proposal requires big thinking
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 3:32 am
Re: "Copper oval inspired by city's flower: Architect Gene Dub envisions $300M facility as part of '24-hour city' with shops, offices, housing," The Journal, Nov. 25.
I want to sound off on the apparent negativity by some to Gene Dub's arena proposal.
For far too long, Edmonton has thought small and too pragmatically, and has forgotten what it is like to inspire or imagine.

Dub is not unique to Edmonton, but wears his heart on his sleeve and loves this city. We need more of us to do the same.
We need to step back and remind ourselves of when we travel or experience something unique. Was that born out of a "good-enough" attitude, or was it from something more -- something amazing?
On a recent trip to Boston, I was overwhelmed by the pride in that city, by the support of citizens for improving their downtown, and by average citizens encouraging me to fall in love with their city -- something I did.
Legacy projects such as Dub's proposal are what we need more of -- buildings that inspire and engage; buildings that create beautiful and interesting places to go and experience.
Please, Edmonton, start to see this.
Ian O'Donnell,
Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2008

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/letters/story.html?id=f48631ed-44fe-4c1d-8e30-24f48a591579

[feepa]

That Ian O'donnell guy must really have nothing better to do. He's always writing in to the Journal. I bet hes some old retired fart that likes to complain about everything and anything. What a looooooooser.

[Harrison]

I sure we had an Ian O'Donnell on this forum to add to the conversation.....seems like he likes Edmonton! :jester:

[Shodan]

The Quarters concept an ideal arena to debate our future
A bold vision is vital to erase the architectural blight in the heart of Edmonton, whether it includes a hockey arena or not

Todd Babiak
The Edmonton Journal

Thursday, December 11, 2008

Light snow fell on the sparsely populated parking lots of the downtown east side on Monday. A bearded gentleman shoved a shopping cart stuffed with bottles, cans, blankets and other treasures along the uneven ice, talking to himself. If Gene Dub were to convince Daryl Katz and the Edmonton Oilers to build a new downtown arena here in the Quarters, centre ice would be three storeys above the man and his cart.

Ninety-sixth Street, by then, will be devoid of concrete. In its place, the Armature, a linear park linking the greenery of the river valley with a residential community of brownstones, low-rise, high-rise and detached housing. Some hockey fans will leave their cars in the gigantic underground garage under the arena, but most will take the LRT and walk through a tunnel from City Hall to the holy of hockey holies, built in the shape of a marigold -- Edmonton's civic flower. Valley residents will take the funicular from river level up the slope, and stroll along the Armature to a 103rd Avenue entrance.

It won't just be an arena. The glass-enclosed structure, under the marigold, will include restaurants and shops, even businesses. Two office towers will be attached. The building will host concerts and other large-scale entertainment events. In the summer, there will be an open-air pedestrian mall: cafes, bistros, sunglasses, good-looking young people, babies in strollers.

Of course, this is a fantasy.

The City of Edmonton and its private- sector partners will move ahead with The Quarters redevelopment with or without a downtown arena in its midst. And the momentum toward a downtown arena seems inevitable, if distantly so. However, it is unlikely that the Quarters redevelopment and the city's arena dreams will coincide. While there are philosophical alignments between Dub's pre-emptive design and the ambitions of Katz and his hockey team, they have not spoken in some time; the Quarters site is not one of the six under official consideration.

"This is very much about the city," said Josh Pekarsky, spokesperson for the Katz Group, on Wednesday. "It's about far more than an arena. It's about an entertainment and sports district for the city and for the region. There are a number of options being considered."

Is Dub's option now one of them?

Pekarsky laughed. "I can't comment on any of the options."

The downtown arena is a rare collective fantasy or, depending on your taste and personality, a nightmare. Discussion boards on the Edmonton Journal website were as active on the subject of Dub's copper marigold as they were during last week's political comedy in Ottawa. It marries several of Edmontonians' current fascinations: the Oilers, architecture, urban design, the livability and attractiveness of downtown, and our image outside the city's borders.

Like all high-profile and expensive projects, the arena brings out the best and the worst in Edmontonians. The best: a willingness to debate. The worst: a tendency to disparage bold ideas and bold thinkers, to wallow in negativity and self-loathing, to return to the abiding, operatic theme of potholes.

After Dub presented his plan to council, The Journal published a number of negative comments from Edmontonians.

Most of them were from a that thing looks like a [blank] point of view rather than a thoughtful esthetic, architectural or social criticism. Dub, generally, avoids the nastiness.

"My son sends me things online from time to time," he said. "And I read bits in the newspaper, that it looks like a toilet bowl, that sort of thing. I'm used to that by now. It's part of the job. I think I hold the record for negative comments, for the City Hall design."

It's up to Katz and the Oilers to determine the future of a downtown arena in Edmonton, but the Quarters is a priority for the mayor and council. A tent-pole project in one of the city's most important neighbourhoods could accomplish multiple goals for everyone. It would be an excellent argument for some sort of public-private partnership, an argument that becomes less compelling in other locations.

Councillor Tony Caterina, at the time, said he felt Dub's surprise appearance at the public hearing was unwelcome, "given the venue and the fact we were there to discuss the Quarters, which is a plan on how to develop more affordable housing in the city."

This just isn't true.

The Quarters, like most modern revitalization and redevelopment initiatives in North America, is a plan to develop mixed housing in the city, so that rich and poor, restaurant and office, the spirit of Chinatown and the spirit of Prada complement each other. Ghettoization creates, well, ghettos. And hockey ghettos are just as unfortunate as the economic variety.

tbabiak@thejournal.canwest.com
© The Edmonton Journal 2008

Copyright © 2008 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=036384b4-81d0-4463-a29f-d177beeeeff2&sponsor=

[Coldrsx]

"Councillor Tony Caterina, at the time, said he felt Dub's surprise appearance at the public hearing was unwelcome, "given the venue and the fact we were there to discuss the Quarters, which is a plan on how to develop more affordable housing in the city.""

um... seriously Tony... what?how?how?what?how??

[240glt]

TOOOOO-NNNYYYYYY :brickwall:

[MrOilers]

Has anyone else noticed that Tony Catarina is against anything new? Seriously.

I get the sense that the guy wishes we had a time machine so we can revert Edmonton to exactly how it was back to the 1960s.

[Coldrsx]

^hey, the 60's were a good time... think more like 83-93'

[MrOilers]

Whoops! I meant to type "1980s".... obviously my skills on the number pad need sharpening.

[MrOilers]

So... Caterina is opposed to a new arena downtown, but is hell bent on an expanded airport downtown. This guy is really bad for any kind of progress in this city. Plain and simple.

What a tool.

[itom 987]

deedub35, post a link to the article's source or it will be deleted.

[Coldrsx]

"Coun. Ben Henderson said he would want some guarantees it would help with downtown revitalization."

um... obvious?

[Shodan]

Advice to Oiler owner: keep arena promises and get a haircut

Scott McKeen
The Edmonton Journal

Monday, December 15, 2008

If I were Daryl Katz, owner of the Edmonton Oilers, I would:

A) Update my cut and style, because Hockey Hair clashes with everything except a bent-sideways nose.

B) Send $10 million immediately to the civic affairs columnist at The Edmonton Journal, because he appears to need it.

C) High-five my reclusive self -- who else is a hermit going to high-five? -- because city council's recent spending spree makes the cost of a new downtown arena seem a bargain by comparison.

Alas, I'm not Daryl Katz. The giveaway is the baldness and the lack of wealth and the fact that, unlike Katz, I've actually been spotted in public a couple times this year, outside Costco, scuttling into the night with two flats of Cheez Whiz. But while I'm not Daryl Katz, that in no way diminishes my opinion that council's recent budget spending is good news for Ryan-Smyth-haired, billionaire NHL owners who also own drugstore chains.

I just spent two weeks of my life -- two weeks I'll never get back -- watching city councillors YOU elected spend money like billionaires.

A majority of them agreed to borrow $1 billion for civic projects -- almost half of it for palatial new recreation centres. In doing so, council established a new financial benchmark in the public consciousness.

Remember the old Coliseum, now called Rexall Place? It was built for roughly one-quarter the cost of the $60-million quad-ice arena council approved for the city's southwest.

Mind you, a decent ticket to an Oiler game in 1979 was $9. Draft beer was a quarter and Chrysler made profits.

But our mental benchmarks tend to get dated, fast. So we throw old-school conniption fits when we hear, oh, $400 million for a new downtown home for the Oilers.

But to repeat myself, a downtown arena will still cost less than what the city just spent on recreation centres. So, even ideologically opposed councillors will now find it difficult to feign outrage at the arena project.

Especially, if no one's property tax is hiked to pay for it, as Mayor Stephen Mandel promises.

"I think that when the vision for an arena comes forward, it will be strong enough on its merits that citizens will see how it can be supported," Mandel says. "And it will be supported substantially across the board, on council as well as in the public. The vision will sell itself."

Mandel says Northlands and Katz Group officials continue to meet quietly on the arena project. He expects a proposal to reach council by March. While he's tight-lipped on details, he's obviously in the loop.

"We estimate the cost of the arena to now be substantially under $400 million -- substantially," he said.

Even so, the economy is failing. Isn't this the wrong time to be building big, new public facilities? Well, not if you believe city councillors (See above).

Mandel says construction of a new arena will create jobs in tough times. The economy will rebound, he says. It's not like the recession will last decades.

"This is a project whose time has come," says Mandel. "I think it will be a remarkable thing for our city and downtown."

Edmontonians, says Mandel, sometimes forget how important a vibrant downtown is to a city's reputation and sense of itself.

"If there's one thing right now that hurts Edmonton's reputation, it's the downtown," says Mandel. "You go to Calgary, Vancouver or Toronto -- people there look at their downtown as the raison d'etre for the city.

"Ours is not that."

Edmonton's downtown is coming, says Mandel, what with the Epcor Tower, the Icon Towers on 104th Street and plans to make over the once-dilapidated east end of Jasper.

"We need more of it," says Mandel. "It's so important to have that presence of success in a downtown, because it permeates through an entire city.

"That's why the new art gallery is so important. That's why a new arena is so important.

"If we don't do these things we won't be able to change people's perceptions -- what I think are improper perceptions -- of our incredible city."

Mandel says he can't comment on whether Katz is still offering $100 million of his own money for the new arena.

If I'm Daryl Katz, I'd follow through on all my promises in regards to the arena.

Then maybe I'd schedule a haircut.

smckeen@thejournal.canwest.com
© The Edmonton Journal 2008

Copyright © 2008 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=a3370665-468f-427a-817e-1d6c835db18a&sponsor=

[Coldrsx]

""If there's one thing right now that hurts Edmonton's reputation, it's the downtown," says Mandel. "You go to Calgary, Vancouver or Toronto -- people there look at their downtown as the raison d'etre for the city.

"Ours is not that.""

i like that comment

[Rocket252]

^ Yes our downtown is a sad sight compared to other cities.

I still do not understand the mentality of some people who think that putting an arena anywhere but downtown is a good thing.

[Coldrsx]

^i still dont understand the mentality of some people who think that a 'good' downtown will happen without them choosing to shop, ear, work, live, et al. there.

[Rocket252]

If you build it and do it properly they will come.

[CorporateWhore]

If I were Daryl Katz, owner of the Edmonton Oilers, I would:
A) Update my cut and style, because Hockey Hair clashes with everything except a bent-sideways nose.


somebody is clearly just jealous.

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/columnists/images/photos/ej_smckeen_150x150.jpg

[240glt]

^i still dont understand the mentality of some people who think that a 'good' downtown will happen without them choosing to shop, ear, work, live, et al. there.

That's a hard one, especially in Alberta.

The arena, done right, will definitely help that, as it'll get people thinking about downtown as a destination for events & such.

The fact that inner city property is still the cheapest in the metro region shows that peole still haven't bought into the concept of downtown living.

[Coldrsx]

^nope, they prefer picturesque ellerslie and boston pizza

woo

[0773|=\]

I think some nay-saying Edmontonians either don't travel, or just don't make the connections between other urban areas and ours as far as potential goes. Maybe they just don't think Edmonton can possibly be in the same league as others, or maybe when they go to other cities, they just sit in the suburbs the whole time, and fail to get a real flavour for what other cities offer.

In any case, Caterina's comments have me very curious as to what his overall vision for the city of Edmonton might be. Obviously I don't agree with his stance on a lot of issues, but I'd love to know what underlies his thought process.

[240glt]

I don't think it's a city vs city issue... there are PLENTY of suburban naysayers in every other city in Canada. In Edmonton it's probably a little more pronounced because we don't have a built up mass of urban dwellers to help create what we'd like to see in downtown. Of course it's happening here now, but look how long it took for the movement to take hold.

I'm thinking I should run on an anti- Caterina ticket for Ward 3 in 2010

[0773|=\]

I don't know what it is, but when I hear infuriating comments from the likes of Caterina, it makes me actually want to meet him and find out more about what makes him tick.

I'm sure that in Caterina's own mind he has "good" reasons for his opinions, but a lot of people who disagree don't care to find out what those perspectives are, they often just assume ignorance. I find that equally infuriating--I'm just not sure if that helps a process move forward easily, and worse yet, everyone isn't properly informed before a decision is made (though they all claim they are, regardless).

[240glt]

^ I've corresponded with him several times since he was elected, and I can't say I'm impressed at all with his attitude or vision.

And yes, I voted for him. His little election motto was "lets get it done".

Still waiting for "it" to get "done"

[CMD UW]

The fact that inner city property is still the cheapest in the metro region shows that peole still haven't bought into the concept of downtown living.
This depends on which part of the inner city. You can't find a 'decent' place in Glenora, Crestwood, Parkview, Garneau, Grandview, et al. for under $400,000. However, you can buy a nice starter home in Ellerslie, Pilot Sound, or Palisades for around $335k.

[240glt]

Oilers need new arena: Bettman

EDMONTON - National Hockey League commissioner Gary Bettman is convinced the Edmonton Oilers need a new downtown arena.

"It is imperative that the Oilers have a new building," he said. "It can become an economic engine. It can attract tourists. It is critical both for the future of the Oilers and the city.

"Yes, the team is good shape, but you have to look into the future. This is a city and a team that vitally need a new building."

Bettman made the comments during an Edmonton Chamber of Commerce luncheon today at the Westin Hotel. He also addressed the global economy and its effect on the NHL, saying "our numbers are almost incredibly strong."

Bettman said attendance is up two per cent league-wide, revenue will be up, and television ratings on both Hockey Night in Canada and TSN are up.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/Business/Oilers+need+arena+Bettman/1082702/story.html

[Coldrsx]

preach it Betty... preach it

[Kevin_foster]

Too bad he didn't tout downtown :) but I suppose that's not his place.

Though the article does state: EDMONTON - National Hockey League commissioner Gary Bettman is convinced the Edmonton Oilers need a new downtown arena..

[itom 987]

Gary said "downtown arena" on the news, and Tony was flapping around as usual.

[christopherj]

9-2 Chicago.

Can we get a new team when we get a new arena? With how things are going in Detroit, maybe the Red Wings can move up here? :D

[Hootch]

Move the Oilers to Kansas City and give us an expansion team. At least when they lose you know they tried.

[rapid_business]

It's all about breaking up the 'old boys club'. If there is no way Bucky would ever land a gig working for another proffesional hockey team, then why do we have him as offensive coach? = 'old boys club rules'

[Shodan]

New arena for Oilers 'imperative,' Bettman says
NHL boss puts his mouth where his money isn't

Dan Barnes
The Edmonton Journal

Wednesday, December 17, 2008

Pricey downtown arenas are political footballs, no matter the sporting pursuits they house.

But neither that fact nor the current economic uncertainty deterred National Hockey League commissioner Gary Bettman, who picked up an already slippery pigskin on Tuesday, threw it onto a clean sheet of ice at Rexall Place, and essentially left the locals to chase it around for six years.

"It is imperative that the Oilers have a new building," Bettman told a Chamber of Commerce luncheon, which was hosted, it must be said, by chairman Patrick LaForge, who doubles as president of the Edmonton Oilers.

"It can become an economic engine," said Bettman. "It can attract tourists. It is critical both for the future of the Oilers and the city. Yes, the team is good shape, but you have to look into the future. This is a city and a team that vitally needs a new building."

It was a political drive-by, a financial hit-and-run. It was, according to LaForge, unprompted by him or his organization.

And it was as strong and predictable a statement as Bettman is likely to make on the topic, which has lain basically dormant, give or take architect Gene Dub's unsolicited mock-up, since the arena feasibility committee delivered its report to Mayor Stephen Mandel last spring.

The report suggested a new, 18,000-seat arena would cost at least $450 million.

Bettman was apparently here to give the arena idea a poke before watching the Oilers play the Chicago Blackhawks.

"I think it's important nobody lose sight of its importance and we continue to move the process along to get to the right place," he said.

The right place for his league and the Oilers is an expensive place for this city; a new building, ready to go preferably when or before the current lease with Edmonton Northlands expires in 2014. Bettman runs a 30-team loop that is always made stronger collectively when its individual members own, or at least operate, their buildings and rake in the profits without paying off the middleman. When those arenas are state-of-the-art, suite-soaked money-makers that also improve the game-night experience for fans in a gate-driven league, so much the better.

So in that sense, Bettman wasn't thinking or stepping outside the cash box. But his comments are sure to ratchet up the rhetoric on both sides of the thorny issue of paying for said building, if only for the immediate future. Because, in a post-luncheon news conference, he made it clear how he thinks the building must be financed.

"There's no way I believe a building can be built here without a significant public element," he said.

Touchdown!

Taxpayer dollars or lack thereof is the core issue, well beyond its downtown location and all the inherent neighbourhood incursion and parking hassles. It's all about the money, and Bettman wasn't afraid to lay it at the foot of government, perhaps buoyed by the fact that owner Daryl Katz continues to pledge $100 million toward the as-yet-undetermined project.

Bettman was careful to sprinkle his largely upbeat address with a few useful swipes at the current barn, though they were not derogatory enough to encourage fans to stay away until the new monument goes up. He called Rexall Place "a little outdated" and "a little smaller than the other buildings Canadian franchises have."

He made sure to tell folks that league revenue is up, attendance is up two per cent league-wide and ratings on Hockey Night in Canada, Versus and TSN continue to rise. The picture was strangely rosy.

All the while, LaForge, general manager Steve Tambellini, president of hockey operations Kevin Lowe and other Oilers employees in the room must have been pinching themselves. They didn't write the speech, but they might as well have.

"Was I aware he was going to say those things? No," said LaForge. "Do I agree with them? Yes, strongly. He captured my feelings rather well. It was good. Spot on."

The Oilers, quite simply, desire a building that could allow them to sell another 2,000 tickets on 41 nights a year. They're chock full at 16,839 for every game -- Tuesday marked the 134th consecutive sellout -- and have 1,800 people on a waiting list for tickets. All 67 suites are full and they have demands for many more.

Though the Oilers will break even without benefit of a single playoff game -- if the exchange rate stays at 80 per cent -- they could make so much more in a new building. And of course offer the fans more amenities, LaForge was quick to add.

As an ally in this cause, Bettman has something to offer the Oilers and Katz, who have already heard local politicians decrying the use of public funds for the new arena. You see, while it's not popular to praise the head of any pro sports entity -- they are in league with billionaire owners and millionaire players whose salaries are paid indirectly by fans after all -- Bettman has a solid track record in Edmonton dating back to the bad old days of franchise turmoil.

He was barely on the job, having started in 1993, and had already presided over the deaths of franchises in Winnipeg and Quebec City, but he did not turn his back on the Oilers when there were virtually no signs of life in the building or the community. Though he was also supporting then-owner Peter Pocklington's desperate need to get liquid, he was a valued source of support and insight for the incoming owners, Cal Nichols in particular.

So Bettman may forever receive slack in this community for past performance. But this isn't his issue, and for him to jump in on the side of spending public money, and by doing so fan the political flames, was a little offside.

dbarnes@thejournal.canwest.com
© The Edmonton Journal 2008

Copyright © 2008 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=01c67ad7-9817-46e1-ad7c-98ae357cdc9b&sponsor=

[Greco Roman]

New arena for Oilers 'imperative,' Bettman says
NHL boss puts his mouth where his money isn't

Dan Barnes
The Edmonton Journal

Wednesday, December 17, 2008


But neither that fact nor the current economic uncertainty deterred National Hockey League commissioner Gary Bettman, who picked up an already slippery pigskin on Tuesday, threw it onto a clean sheet of ice at Rexall Place, and essentially left the locals to chase it around for six years.

"It is imperative that the Oilers have a new building," Bettman told a Chamber of Commerce luncheon, which was hosted, it must be said, by chairman Patrick LaForge, who doubles as president of the Edmonton Oilers.

"It can become an economic engine," said Bettman. "It can attract tourists. It is critical both for the future of the Oilers and the city. Yes, the team is good shape, but you have to look into the future. This is a city and a team that vitally needs a new building."

Could this be considered a threat from our beloved commissioner? :rolleyes:

[rrskylar]

^ Betty came to Winnipeg about 14 or 15 years ago saying pretty much the same thing, look where our team is now though (although the Coyotes will only lose $25-30 million this year).

The difference today is that there really is no where to move existing NHL franchises, so what Bettman offers are false threats.

[cdnklc]

^ Betty came to Winnipeg about 14 or 15 years ago saying pretty much the same thing, look where our team is now though (although the Coyotes will only lose $25-30 million this year).

The difference today is that there really is no where to move existing NHL franchises, so what Bettman offers are false threats.

http://sprintcenter.com/resources/images/general/views_hockey_thmb.jpg

http://sprintcenter.com/resources/images/general/views_night_thumb.jpg

this is kansas city's sprint center... do you really think they wouldn't love to get an nhl team back in their market in a brand spanking new facility?

and do you really think there aren't any others either?

[TimB09]

Kansas City would jump all over any team that is avaliable out there, I can guarantee that.
So would Vegas.

[IKAN104]

Yes, they would. Thankfully, there are a number of other teams much more likely to move there (or anywhere) ahead of the Oilers.

Having said that, breaking even with fewer than 17,000 seats in a non-playoff year, tells me that without a new arena, future non-playoff, higher salary cap years are likely to mean financial losses in Edmonton, especially if the dollar dips even more. And that's a slippery slope.

[Coldrsx]

^bingo... another 2,000 seats + boxes of revenue is needed to be not only viable but competitive.

[Calgarian]

Kansas City would jump all over any team that is avaliable out there, I can guarantee that.
So would Vegas.

And Portland and Seattle...

[Spring2008]

why spend 1/2 a billion and go through all the hassles just to build an 18,000 seat arena. Why not make it at least 19,000-20,000, I'm sure they'd still be able to sell out most games?

[SHOFEAR]

why spend 1/2 a billion and go through all the hassles just to build an 18,000 seat arena. Why not make it at least 19,000-20,000, I'm sure they'd still be able to sell out most games?


Because it's not about being able to "sell out most games". It's about maximizing revenues. Exponential building costs associated with giant buildings do not favour into the maximizing revenue equation all too well.

[Great Dane]

Could this be considered a threat from our beloved commissioner? :rolleyes:

The difference being that Edmonton actually supports its team.

Winnipeg blew their chance. Too bad, so sad.

And there are many markets, Seattle, Portland, Vegas, Kansas City, Houston, Hartford, Quebec City, Hamilton that I'd rather go to before Winnipeg.

[Greco Roman]

The difference being that Edmonton actually supports its team.

Winnipeg blew their chance. Too bad, so sad.

And there are many markets, Seattle, Portland, Vegas, Kansas City, Houston, Hartford, Quebec City, Hamilton that I'd rather go to before Winnipeg.

Predictable response from this dog :rolleyes:

Don't bark too much, or you'll wear yourself out!

[itom 987]

Cut it out Greco Roman, there is no need to insult other forumers.

[rrskylar]

The difference being that Edmonton actually supports its team.

Winnipeg blew their chance. Too bad, so sad.

And there are many markets, Seattle, Portland, Vegas, Kansas City, Houston, Hartford, Quebec City, Hamilton that I'd rather go to before Winnipeg.

Do you really think that if Winnipeg had the talent the Oilers had been blessed with from their start in the NHL that the Jets would no longer be in Winnipeg. If Edmonton had as many really lousy boring teams that Winnipeg suffered with the Oilers would be playing in Phoenix now! It boggles my mind when Hamilton is thought of as a better hockey market when their AHL team annually draws less than half the attendance Winnipeg gets.

[rapid_business]

/\ But that is just about putting another team in the GTA. (which it could easily support) Mississauga would probably be the best choice if that was the case as it would capture the Hamilton-Burlington-Oakville-Mississauga-Brampton very easily due to its central location.

[TimB09]

The difference being that Edmonton actually supports its team.

Winnipeg blew their chance. Too bad, so sad.

And there are many markets, Seattle, Portland, Vegas, Kansas City, Houston, Hartford, Quebec City, Hamilton that I'd rather go to before Winnipeg.

Seattle-Need an arena and someone to step up to own the team. Haven't heard much.

Portland-There is a rich man there(Paul Allen)but I believe he said that he had no interest in a hockey team.

Vegas-Jerry Bruickhemier wants a team bad and he has the money to do it. He'll have some form, whether NBA or NHL team there soon enough.

Kansas City-Has the arena and the people willing to step up and own the team.

Houston-Money is there but I have not heard much on interested parties. Is Les Alexander still around?

Oklahoma City-These guys were considered for an expansion franchise many years ago. They actually have a decent arena there for their local team and have the interest in hockey. It could work. This is my wildcard place for a franchise.

Hartford-No arena and no interest

Quebec City-There is interest but no arena built right now to house an NHL team. It would work but the infrastructure needs to be in place first.

Hamilton-An owner that is ready, willing and able to have a team there is he wants. Only issue is that there is no NHL arena avaliable.

Winnipeg-No idea if there is money there for a team. David Asper is a rich rich man but he owns the CFL's Blue Bombers and might not have interest in a team.

Just my thoughts on some of these cities.

[IKAN104]

Do you really think that if Winnipeg had the talent the Oilers had been blessed with from their start in the NHL that the Jets would no longer be in Winnipeg. If Edmonton had as many really lousy boring teams that Winnipeg suffered with the Oilers would be playing in Phoenix now! It boggles my mind when Hamilton is thought of as a better hockey market when their AHL team annually draws less than half the attendance Winnipeg gets.

If I remember correctly the Jets had a pretty talented lineup when they left town. I think the reason they left was the lack of corporate support to save them. That was the difference in Edmonton.

[MrOilers]

I agree - the Jets had a competitive team. I would go as far to say that they would have made it past the second round of the playoffs a few of those years if they didn't have to play those powerhouse Oilers and Flames teams in the first couple rounds.

The Jets left because they lacked the corporate support and a modern NHL arena (much like Quebec City).

[Jasper and one o nin]

Houston would have been the new home of the Pens if they couldnt work things out in 07. (same owner as the Rockets)
I was in Houston in Jan 07, and remember reading the front page of the houston chronical which read (something to the effect of) Penquins to fly south to Houston

[trueviking]

I agree - the Jets had a competitive team.

i do really hope edmonton gets its arena...they deserve it for sure.


not to get involved in this discussion....especially with 'great dick', but the jets only finished with a better than .500 record 4 of 17 years....one year they had 9 wins....the year they left they were 4 games under .500 and the last full season before that they were 27 games under .500....hardly competitive.

the jets really only had one good season....and then this happened....if i ever found out who that guy was in the bottom right i would punch him straight in the face...the image of him cheerig hawerchuk's injury is burned into the mind's eye of every winnipegger over the age of 30...i just heard someone talking about it a few days ago actually.

that guy is the reason i hate the flames more than any other team to this day.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4506/87066692dn6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Xelebes]

Maybe post the youtube video instead of just the images? Just a thought.

[Ponza]

Have to agree with the others. The Jet's left town not because they had a bad team on the ice but a lack of will in the corporate community. Back in the mid 90's Winnipeg had (and maybe still does) more big money people than Edmonton easily.

The Oilers remained in Edmonton because our corporate community banded together as they saw having the Oilers as a key to trying to build the overall image of the city.

Shame on corporate Winnipeg. I also have to say if it wasn't for the arena issue Winnipeg would be my first choice to move an NHL team to. It's a great hockey market which is what I think the NHL needs to move back to. Put teams where people actually like hockey instead of trying to develop new markets. It's never going to work.

[0773|=\]

I think developing new markets is healthy but sometimes it just takes time. You need a well established area where the sport is popular before you expand further. The NHL is far from being in the position of the NFL, which I think is where a league should be before it expands.

I think Great Dane needs to visit Winnipeg before he bad-mouths that city, a few months out there has shown me that there's far more to that town than people ever give it credit for.

I also wonder why nobody has considered Salt Lake City as a possible candidate for NHL expansion. Possibly that they have 2 major sports teams already? But seriously, that place has 'winter city' written all over it! I'd expand there over Vegas. Similar populations and one place barely sees snow (until last week, that is...)

[Great Dane]

I think Great Dane needs to visit Winnipeg before he bad-mouths that city, a few months out there has shown me that there's far more to that town than people ever give it credit for.



Lived there for over 6 months and visited many times, couldn't get out of that hole fast enough as well as family that moved there from AB.

Maybe you should not assume crap about others.

[Prairie Guy]

Lived there for over 6 months and visited many times, couldn't get out of that hole fast enough as well as family that moved there from AB.

Maybe you should not assume crap about others.

The way you talk, there is no assumption about your character.

BTW, I've been to Edmonton, and it can be considered a, how do you put it, "hole" as well.

Sorry man, but you went there.

[trueviking]

Maybe post the youtube video instead of just the images? Just a thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsGG5fo6Ehk


not sure why that makes a difference...i was trying to highlight one incident in a lighthearted way...posting a video and telling you to go to the 44 second mark seemed the worse option.

i will agree that winnipeg's rich guys did not step up, the way they did in edmonton....its still probably the only reason winnipeg doesnt have a team today...if the richardsons or aspers liked hockey it would be different.... think you all forget though just how close the oilers were to moving...the mid 90's was a dark day and the nhl was doing all it could to move teams....edmonton, because of its success in the past was able to avoid it, but just barely...revenue sharing came in after the jets and nords were already gone and that money was what kept edmonton from falling too...the markets in winnipeg and quebec were just that slight bit weaker.

great dane...you need to grow up.

[cardio]

Thanks for posting the video as it shows how deceptive a still photo can be. The video clearly shows that the fan who was the target of your irrational hatred (23 years later, you would still want to punch him in the face!?) was simply cheering the hit on Hawerchuk. In the split second after the hit, the fan would have had no idea that he was seriously hurt. There are a lot of silly reasons to hate opposing teams, but really, hating a team for 23 years because a single fan cheered a hit?!

[trueviking]

^ better check under the cushions of your couch...i think you have misplaced your sense of humour....

[newflyer]

Kansas City would jump all over any team that is avaliable out there, I can guarantee that.
So would Vegas.

Thats funny because there are at least 6 teams that are in deep trouble .. all KC needs is an owner who is willing.

Las Vegas could never support an NHL team...

Over the next couple years I would not be suprised at all if there is a major restructuring in the NHL... I also would expect to see Winnipeg back before too long.

[newflyer]

the jets really only had one good season....and then this happened....if i ever found out who that guy was in the bottom right i would punch him straight in the face...the image of him cheerig hawerchuk's injury is burned into the mind's eye of every winnipegger over the age of 30...i just heard someone talking about it a few days ago actually.

that guy is the reason i hate the flames more than any other team to this day.



I also remember this series like it was yesterday ... the Jets went on to win the series 4-2 I believe .. and the game after this illegal hit to Hawerchuck the JETS started its goon line. The first time I had ever seen Perry Turnbell take the opening faceoff in a game.

[IKAN104]

Thats funny because there are at least 6 teams that are in deep trouble .. all KC needs is an owner who is willing.

Las Vegas could never support an NHL team...

Over the next couple years I would not be suprised at all if there is a major restructuring in the NHL... I also would expect to see Winnipeg back before too long.

If Winnipeg had built its new arena just a few thousand seats larger it might have a shot at a team. And now with a brand new 15,000 seat arena there's no chance another, larger arena will be built. I don't like to judge people, but that was just dumb. :koko: (keeping the seat count down, that is)

[Coldrsx]

^agreed.

They should have built it for 17,500 with a "upper" section that could be draped off during normal events.

[rapid_business]

What about corporate suites? I'm sure they are short on that as well, no?

[Coldrsx]

^likely, but no reason they could not have put more of those in and either had them for true corporate suites or special group rentals.

[drew]

^agreed.

They should have built it for 17,500 with a "upper" section that could be draped off during normal events.

It has a lower bowl that seats around 9000, with the upper section seating around 6000 that is draped off during normal events.

According to the website, there are 46 corporate suites and 2, larger rentable party suites.

http://www.mtscentre.ca/arena/index.php

Whether or not the MTS Centre is NHL calibre will be argued forever...or at least until a bankrupt NHL team is moved back here.

[Coldrsx]

^simply too 'small'

[Prairie Guy]

^simply too 'small'

This is a less relevant factor than the lack of fan support. Look at the attendance in many of the Southern US teams; dismal. And they have seating capacities of what, between 17-20K, and are maybe filling half to two thirds on a good day. Hockey simply just doesn't belong in certain cities, and the fan supports are good indicators of that. Winnipeg won't have that problem.

Also, corporate support. Until we find a backer with enough money (and God knows they are out there), we won't have a team.

I guess Butthead is an issue, as well.

[Coldrsx]

^fair enough but IMO you cannot compete revenue-wise without a min. amount of seating and boxes. Even if you sold out every game your revenues will still be relatively low unless ticket prices are high.

Edmonton is doing ok, but still falls short on the revenue it could have and use to be even more competitive and provide a better facility.

[christopherj]

According to the website, there are 46 corporate suites and 2, larger rentable party suites.



^simply too 'small'

Even more so when you consider Rexall Place has 67 corporate suites - and adding more corporate suites is one of the reasons the team wants a new arena, as more are needed to increase revenues.

[trueviking]

^fair enough but IMO you cannot compete revenue-wise without a min. amount of seating and boxes. Even if you sold out every game your revenues will still be relatively low unless ticket prices are high.

Edmonton is doing ok, but still falls short on the revenue it could have and use to be even more competitive and provide a better facility.

its hilarious how many threads this subject comes up in...we need a team just so we can stop arguing about it.




It may be a knee jerk reaction to simply say 15 000 seat arena is too small but if you look at the facts, you will find that is not true at all.

Let me do the math for you….

The edmonton oilers average 16 800 fans per game and have the 7th highest ticket revenues in the NHL ($1.2 million per game).

The 1 800 seats in rexall place that are not in the MTS centre are the 300 level seats which have an average price of about $35 (USD) in Edmonton.

For each game the ticket revenues lost at the smaller arena would be $63 000 per game, which would rank a Winnipeg team 8th overall in ticket revenues if all other seats were the same price as they are in Edmonton.

Annually those missing seats would account for less than $2.5 million in lost revenue plus another million or so for concessions etc…..phoenix, florida, the islanders etc. make that much less than edmonton in 3 home games.

The vast amount of revenue comes from luxury suites, club seats and lower bowl seats…..not the 1 800 upper deck seats that they didn’t build in Winnipeg.

Rexall place has 39 suites and 16 skyboxes. The MTS centre has 48 suites and is planning to expand that number.

Even with 1 800 fewer seats, in general the ticket revenues for a winnipeg team would be comparable to those in edmonton, who are in the top third of the league….even if they were only 2/3 of what they are in edmonton, they would still be ranked in the top half of the league.

There is currently a waiting list for suites at the MTS centre for the moose at near NHL suite prices.

even simply, 15 000 tickets at an average price of $80 CDN ($70 USD) would rank winnipeg 8th overall in ticket revenue....just above colorado and detroit....clubs with way larger arenas.



www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/080530_nhl_tickets_revenue.pdf

[Coldrsx]

^is there enough corporate support, are there enough people willing to pay for golds/silvers?

and yes, while we do have decent revenues, we have a stadium that barely gets us by in pretty much all regards except for sightlines.

[hilman]

^^ 16 skysuites * $5000 * 41 games = $3,280,000. That does not account for the food/liquor of those boxes which can be $1-2000 per game per box.

[trueviking]

^is there enough corporate support, are there enough people willing to pay for golds/silvers?

and yes, while we do have decent revenues, we have a stadium that barely gets us by in pretty much all regards except for sightlines.


i agree, i am hoping big time that edmonton can pull off a beauty downtown arena....that would be awesome and would solidify their long term future.

as for winnipeg...there is certainly the corporate support to fill the suites...as i say, the shitty moose have a waiting list and as i recall the fees were not much below NHL prices.....when the jets left they had pre-sold all the suites that were to be in the new building that was to be built at the time....we have lots of corporate support at that level...what we dont have is an owner...our super rich are not the hockey types.

i am not trying to say that winnipeg has as large a market as edmonton...i am saying that in a gate driven league, smaller hockey markets would be sustainable when compared to the rest of the league....and that the smaller building isnt really the issue.

[SHOFEAR]

....we have lots of corporate support at that level...what we dont have is an owner...our super rich are not the hockey types.


"lots of corporate support at that level" were the ones who stepped up to the plate and bought the Oilers. "lots of corporate support at that level" didn't want to sell to the "super rich"

[ibz]

How much does a suite cost to buy at MTS? If you consider a 32 person suite at MTS is $2,500 to rent for a moose game compared to over $10,000 for a 24 person at an Oiler game, thats quite a difference....I imagine the spread is at least that much or more to purchase the suite for the year.

[SHOFEAR]

My understanding from a conversatiomn I overheard was that my uncle's company paid something like 120grand for a suite near the icing line at rexall. That was five or six years ago and I would imagine it is significantly higher today. I'd say 180-200

[trueviking]

"lots of corporate support at that level" were the ones who stepped up to the plate and bought the Oilers. "lots of corporate support at that level" didn't want to sell to the "super rich"

yeah, i wish ours had done the same....its that 'ol alberta entrepreneurial spirit.

a friend of mine is a higher up at scotiabank and he told me that their suite at MTS costs them in the range of $120k....NHL and AHL are apples and oranges though so the comparasin is pointless...

[cdnklc]

My understanding from a conversatiomn I overheard was that my uncle's company paid something like 120grand for a suite near the icing line at rexall. That was five or six years ago and I would imagine it is significantly higher today. I'd say 180-200

i think that's in the ballpark for a suite for the season - if you could get one - but at that price it would be one of the smaller ones (which have seating for 12) on the main level. the larger ones would be proportionately more and the upper level skyboxes possibly a bit less. in all cases, that doesn't include the cost of improvements nor does it include any food or beverages which starts at with a 12" boston pizza for $26 or a hot dog for $10 while a six pack will set you back $36 for canadian and $17 for evian water...

[Coldrsx]

fuel --------> fire

Rexall Place fourth-busiest arena in Canada


BY SANDRA SPEROUNES, EDMONTONJOURNAL.COMJANUARY 16, 2009 2:45 PMBE THE FIRST TO POST A COMMENT


EDMONTON — Rexall Place is slipping.

In 2008, the venue was the fourth busiest arena in Canada and 32nd in the world, according to Pollstar, a concert industry publication.

That’s a drop from the previous year — when Rexall was No. 3 in Canada and No. 12 in the world.

The figures include ticket sales to concerts and family events, but not sporting events. Rexall Place sold almost 300,000 tickets last year, but 472,519 in 2007.

Toronto’s Air Canada Centre was the top venue in Canada, followed by Montreal’s Bell Centre and Winnipeg’s MTS Centre.

Edmonton’s Jubilee Auditorium also slipped. It was the fifth busiest theatre in Canada in 2008, down from No. 1 in 2007.

ssperounes@thejournal.canwest.com

© Copyright (c) The Edmonton Journal

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Rexall+Place+fourth+busiest+arena+Canada/1185999/story.html

[MrOilers]

I wonder what those attendance figures are when sporting events are counted as well?

[hilman]

Oilers have at least 43 home games (2 pre-season) * 16,839 = 724,077
Oil Kings have 36 home games * 5,000 = 180,000
Rush have 8 home games * 8,820 (2007 average from NLL.com) = 70,560

Total for the three teams = 974,637.

[oiler-dude]

I know it would never happen, doesn't really make sense, or anything, but I think an arena would be beautiful on the Leg grounds where that big white building stands overlooking the river, the name slips my mind.

An arena there would be beautiful with Downtown in the background one way, near the river, and the High Level bridge in there as well.

But again, I know this would never happen obviously, and makes no real sense. I'm thinking purely aesthetically. :p

Edit:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k6/kewlhandsmyth/Edmonton/edmonton7ib.jpg
I mean right there on the left hand side of the pic. That would look awesome, IMO.

[Coldrsx]

^bad idea.

-Difficult to get in and out of
-ruin potential reclaimation of that land for grounds use
-LRT is close but not connected
-politics

[CMD UW]

Very bad idea. That building is scheduled for demo eventually. Although, it would be a wicked location for a cool government building. Nothing tall (5 stories max).

[rapid_business]

I see what you are saying about it looking interesting as it is framed by the skyline, but that is it. Cold mentioned the reasons above.

Add to it:
- lack of development opportunity around it
- lack of resto/bar/pub locations or opportunities nearby
- lack of hotels or opportunities nearby

[oiler-dude]

No I know it makes no sense. Like I said, I was thinking purely aesthetically.

[0773|=\]

Was listening to CHED last night, and they were interviewing someone from the Journal who was talking about Katz' recent acquisition of the Cracker Cats. He was guessing aloud that Katz might be planning a sports/entertainment district in the area around Telus Field including the Oilers new arena.

Now that's just a reporter guessing, but I don't know if I like that idea. There would be no LRT involved anymore, unless a SE alignment can pass by there on its way to Mill Woods or something...

Did anyone else listen to this as well? I think it was during the final hour of Inside Sports, I'm going to try and find it in the radio archives.

[rapid_business]

Yeah...I doubt it. It doesn't make sense.

Has anyone seen the proposal for the Quebec City Arena yet? It reminds me a little of Kansas City. Here is the post...I love it. (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4072863&postcount=777)

[Beltliner]

^^^ Now how do you suppose the locals in Rossdale and the archaeologists rummaging through the ancient burial grounds in the area would feel about that idea? Either the reporter was deaf as a post or thick as two planks, or the Katz people are taking their public leverage cues from The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight (http://www.amazon.ca/Gang-That-Couldnt-Shoot-Straight/dp/0316111740/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234286374&sr=1-1).

[Coldrsx]

NO WAY IN HELL will it be in Rossdale... and i mean 0%

[Coldrsx]

Yeah...I doubt it. It doesn't make sense.

Has anyone seen the proposal for the Quebec City Arena yet? It reminds me a little of Kansas City. Here is the post...I love it. (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4072863&postcount=777)

tres, how do you say, sexi

[0773|=\]

Yes... that Quebec arena is very nice...

[rapid_business]

Notice the skating rink all around it?(My french skills are hurting...I just remembered what 'Patinoire' means)