[davee930]

I'm sure the arena will happen. My only concern is that it won't be as loud as the existing Rexall Place. Man I've never heard an arena like that, and that's just from the broadcasts of playoffs last year--Can only imagine what it's like in person.
Alberta has more than enough dough for both Edm. and Cal. to build new arenas, and my bet is that both citites will have them within a decade.
GO OIL!!

Wanna hear loud? Go to the dome

[ExcaliburKid]

Yeahhh sorry, I think Oil Country's got you beat :D

[feepa]

Wanna hear loud? Go to the dome
Or Rexall, The loudest NHL Barn

[Jasper and one o nin]

ohhhh, come ON! who the fukc cares! are we trying to make every thread a Edm Cal pissing contest.

[Hootch]

Wanna hear loud? Go to the dome

Indeed. When Franzen scored the silence was DEAFENING! :haha:

Game 3 vs. Anaheim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FacqUaSqf2c)

[Coldrsx]

^brought tears to my eyes........that run was one of the best things in my life thus far.

[ExcaliburKid]

ohhhh, come ON! who the fukc cares! are we trying to make every thread a Edm Cal pissing contest.

Relax, the ":D" was meant in good nature. At least Calgary MADE the playoffs last year.

[Champion3]

Let's go Oilers

[GUB]

A good friend of mine had season tix for the Flames in 02.
He said the nickname for the dome was "the library".
He's been to many games and claims the dome to be among the quietest buildings.
Harbour Station in Saint John is 2nd to Rexall Place as far as crowd noise. SJ used to be home to the baby Flames. Calder cup champs!

[Shodan]

New arena is election's 800-lb gorilla
Proposal that's likely to dominate new council generates little debate among candidates

Susan Ruttan
The Edmonton Journal

Monday, October 01, 2007

EDMONTON - The question of a downtown arena seems to be flying under the radar this civic election, rarely raised by candidates or voters.

Yet it's likely to be one of the biggest decisions facing a new city council.

In early December, a committee struck by Mayor Stephen Mandel to study the feasibility of such an arena will give its report.

While public opinion is cool to the idea, Mandel is a big fan. So is the committee chair, businessman Lyle Best.

"The spinoff benefits to cities are phenomenal," Mandel said in a recent interview.

"A lot of people would say we don't need another arena," Best said in an interview. "But when you look at it, is there anything wrong with wanting an upgraded downtown core?"

Best said building an arena just for itself -- as a new home for the Edmonton Oilers and for concerts -- is hard to justify economically.

Neither Oilers games nor concerts produce a lot of profit for an arena, he said. What can justify an arena, he said, will be what it can do to revitalize downtown Edmonton.

The new council will need to grapple with several issues:

- Cost

Cost estimates for a new arena range from $400 million to $1 billion.

Construction costs in Edmonton are rising rapidly in our overheated economy, leaving the city struggling to pay for LRT and road projects.

Best's committee visited two American cities, Columbus, Ohio and Kansas City, Missouri, to look at their new downtown arenas.

- Parking

Parking lots around Rexall Place can hold 6,500 cars, and the LRT line carries about 3,000 people to Oilers games.

Where will people park at a downtown arena?

"That's a very critical point, and one I have to defend almost every day," Best said. "We already have a large and significant inventory of parking spots (downtown) that are not typically used after 5 o'clock."

Oilers tickets increasingly go to corporations, he added, and many businessmen will be able to walk to the game from their downtown offices.

WHAT HAPPENS TO REXALL?

Northlands, the non-profit group that runs Rexall Place, released a study in February that said the arena could be rebuilt for $250 million. That report has been shelved while the mayor's committee does its work.

Tony Caterina, a Ward 3 council candidate, worries about what will happen to Rexall if the Oilers and big concerts move out.

"Rexall Place, being one of the few jewels in Ward 3, is in the best location possible," Caterina said. It's on a major road, Gretzky Drive, has its own LRT station, and could easily expand where it is.

Best said Rexall hasn't been totally discarded as a site for a new arena. But he notes that no development has sprung up around Rexall, something he thinks will happen at a downtown site.

WHO PAYS?

Mandel promises not to use property tax dollars or provincial infrastructure grants to pay for an arena.

"So we have to find other ways," he said.

Mandel sees the city as an important player in making the new arena happen; the committee is reporting to him.

Calgary Mayor Dave Bronconnier, by contrast, hasn't involved himself in the talk about a new arena to replace the Saddedome. He, like deputy premier Ron Stevens, says new arenas should be financed by a hike in ticket prices, not by government.

In Kansas City, local hotel and rental car taxes were hiked to help pay for a downtown arena. In Columbus, council raised money with tax-free bonds and the city's largest employer, Nationwide Insurance, paid much of the arena cost.

Best said if the arena is to happen, the Edmonton Oilers owners need to bring money to the table.

DOES THE DOWNTOWN NEED AN ARENA?

Best said while "the economics are probably not there" for an arena on its own, the condo towers, restaurants and shops it will generate will make it worth doing.

"In Columbus and in Kansas, we saw buildings that had been sitting empty for 25 years, that are now full."

Yet Edmonton's downtown, which struggled for years, is now in a building boom.

A new art gallery is going up, the MacEwan campus is expanding, the old Bay building is becoming a downtown university campus, and a 40-storey tower is planned for the Paramount Theatre site on Jasper Avenue. Plus, Epcor is talking about building a new downtown office building.

At least six condo towers are being planned within a few blocks of the Canada Post building on 103A Avenue, a proposed site for an arena.

And the city has a revitalization plan called the Quarters for an 18-block area of downtown east. It aims to replace derelict buildings and parking lots with housing and shops.

Best acknowledges the growth, but says there are still grungy areas that need revitalizing.

Ben Henderson, a candidate in Ward 4, has not made up his mind on the arena idea. Much will depend on how it's done, he says.

"If we succumb to the demons of parking and surround it with surface parking lots, it will do no good for the downtown," he says.

© The Edmonton Journal 2007

Copyright © 2007 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

[Coldrsx]

"
"If we succumb to the demons of parking and surround it with surface parking lots, it will do no good for the downtown," he says."


how misinformed are these people?

[Coldrsx]

im going to lose it...


Build it in Gibbons
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 1:08 am

Will someone tell those boneheads at City Hall that everything does not need to be "downtown?"

I cannot stand the traffic congestion and lack of parking -- they are far too frustrating.

Build the new arena at Gibbons or Leduc so we can get to it.
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Evelyn Gwynn, Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

Improve transit service
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 1:08 am

I don't think we need a new arena. I would rather see a park-and-ride service to Rexall Place for all events, especially hockey games.

I know that businesses near the arena won't like it, but park-and-ride service would be great. I don't understand why we only have park-and-ride service to Eskimo games.

Pauline LaFleur, Edmonton
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© The Edmonton Journal 2007

---------------------------------

Just renovate Rexall
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 1:08 am

According to The Journal, the downtown arena isn't yet on the radar. I'd like to raise it and hopefully see its demise.

Supporters say it will contribute to the rebirth of the downtown. But why spend money on this project when there are so many other high-priority needs?

What's wrong with the existing site for a renovated arena? It already has LRT service and ample parking, and renovating the existing arena will have far less impact than building a new one downtown. Think of the mess for patrons of other venues downtown, such as the Citadel Theatre and Winspear Centre, if hockey games or concerts in the arena coincide with other events.
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Critics say the existing site hasn't led to business development in the area. Is it any more likely that such development would accompany a new arena downtown?

What assurances do we have that Mayor Stephen Mandel would make good on his promise that taxpayers would not have to foot the bill for the new arena?

On three recent projects, the city failed us miserably. On the 23rd Avenue interchange, the city failed to get businesses in South Edmonton Common to pick up at least a part of the tab. Why not? One councillor told me, rather lamely, the city was surprised by the fast pace of development there. Really!

The other failed projects were the park-and-ride facilities at both Southgate and Century Place. Why didn't the city bargain harder for them? It could have delayed issuing building permits or whatever until developers co-operated to provide the needed facilities without the city having to pay outlandish prices.

Can we really have much confidence in city council delivering the promised goods in this new and grandiose project? Based on council's track record, I doubt it.

Robert R. Gilsdorf, Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007


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[Coldrsx]

Proposed project will be a tough sell
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 1:08 am

Re: "New arena is election's 800-lb gorilla: Proposal that's likely to dominate new council generates little debate among candidates," The Journal, Oct. 1.

Although I have not definitively decided, I have a number of concerns about a downtown arena, including traffic congestion and the impact of building a facility that is only active when the arena is in use.

The only reason I will not rule out a downtown arena is because I have seen the huge impact a new arena has had in revitalizing Winnipeg's downtown.
Traffic congestion can be a problem around Rexall Place on game night.View Larger Image View Larger Image
Traffic congestion can be a problem around Rexall Place on game night.
Shaughn Butts, The Journal, file
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I would like to see the details of what is actually being proposed for Edmonton before I make my final decision. I will not support any proposal that is not primarily served by public transit, that is not a vibrant and positive force at all times of day, and that creates any further strain on the infrastructure around it.

Ben Henderson, candidate, Ward 4


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

not sure it will get published, but here is my reply:

In response to the "Build it (rexall) in Gibbons" I would like to understand why people of this city continue to complain about traffic, parking, et al. Rush hour maybe frustrating, but a larf when compared to most major cities. Parking rates are low and availability is high in the downtown core outside of office hours. Not to mention that a new rink in the downtown core will be more central for all and create more opportunity for transit choice to the game.

The downtown of a city should be a place for all to come and enjoy the fabric of life, be it a concert, an outdoor busker, a patio, or a hockey game.

Downtown Edmonton has made huge strides in the past few years with regards to redevelopment and this would continue this trend and bolster clientel for shops, restaurants, and hotels.

We have a choice in this fair city; we can create a core to be proud of, to stand on, to showoff...or we can suck the life out of it and ship everything to the burbs.

which do you want your city to be remembered by?

[IKAN104]

It's amazing the things that people will say. Like this one for example:

Improve transit service
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 1:08 am

Just renovate Rexall
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 1:08 am

According to The Journal, the downtown arena isn't yet on the radar. I'd like to raise it and hopefully see its demise.

Supporters say it will contribute to the rebirth of the downtown. But why spend money on this project when there are so many other high-priority needs?

What's wrong with the existing site for a renovated arena? It already has LRT service and ample parking, and renovating the existing arena will have far less impact than building a new one downtown. Think of the mess for patrons of other venues downtown, such as the Citadel Theatre and Winspear Centre, if hockey games or concerts in the arena coincide with other events.


Gasp! Imagine the horror of horrors to have thousands of people downtown on a Saturday night. Surely the government will not allow this to happen!

:rolleyes:

I think the Journal prefers to print letters from crazy people. Must sell more papers or something.

[Coldrsx]

"I think the Journal prefers to print letters from crazy people. Must sell more papers or something."

angels helping seniors dont sell papers


"Gasp! Imagine the horror of horrors to have thousands of people downtown on a Saturday night. Surely the government will not allow this to happen!"

coming back from van i once again find myself amazed at how "quiet" the downtown core is here. While i somewhat like that in certain areas, i cannot help but wonder why we as a city dont recognize this more and work harder to make it something to be proud of.

[Kevin_foster]

^ The majority of people don't care and/or aren't educated on the subject.

I can't count the # of people I have sat down with someone and talked about downtown(s) and how they pertain to a city. They ALWAYS walk away convinced and ready to help out any way they can - everything from density, revitalization, conservation, parkspace, population flow etc. For some odd reason, the topic of urban design always comes up when I'm around; even though I'm not even educated on the subject. Goes to show that if you care, you can learn & be knowledgeable enough to make things happen.

It's just some how people need to recognize it.... having an arena built would be a good start. The average Joe DOESNT go to the winspear or shop downtown.

The average Joe DOES go to Hockey games - so anything to bring the average Joe downtown will equate to a slow, but sure, growth in the love of our downtown.

[Coldrsx]

many avg. joe's go to robson, to yonge, to queen, to st.catherines, to ______ and enjoy a day downtown even if they live in the burbs...but few here do the same.

i am disgusted at how many friends i know who work downtown and barely know there is a mall or restaurant other than BP's in the core.

[KREZ]

^^^ Why does this still surprise you Cold? These are still 2 very different cities in 2 different classes. Very few cities in the world can hold a candle to the variety, amenities and population in downtown Van. The fact our downtown is dead in relation to Vancouver's core should be no surprise to anyone.

It doesn't excuse the fact that we can and should try harder, of course.

[Coldrsx]

^apples to apples it is not, but much can be learned from vancouver's planning policies, development initiatives, cooperation, and investment into a core.

Edmonton will never be downtown vancouver, i am fully aware, but we can take elements of their planning, direction, real good things and apply them to our city to enhance the visual, cerebral, and # of starbuckezezs in the core.

[Kevin_foster]

^apples to apples it is not, but much can be learned from vancouver's planning policies, development initiatives, cooperation, and investment into a core.

Edmonton will never be downtown vancouver, i am fully aware, but we can take elements of their planning, direction, real good things and apply them to our city to enhance the visual, cerebral, and # of starbuckezezs in the core.

Although for the most park Vans Core is happening, I have stayed there many times when it's deader than Edmonton on a cold winter day.

You have to admit Edmontons core is getting better. I couldn't believe my eyes this summer. Best I've seen it in a long, long time.

[Coldrsx]

^better yes, respectable not yet.

[Xelebes]

What's with your love of Starbucks? I mean, they serve the absolute worst of drinks (according to my choice of drinks) amongst all the cafes, even worse than McDonalds.

[Coldrsx]

^i like starbucks, not love, but many many do and love it or hate it...they only go where people are and where areas are growing...

[Kevin_foster]

^^ Starbucks, hate it or love it, brings people (decent people!) to an area.

You have to give it to them, they sure do a good job in choosing the right areas to set up shop and creating (the immediate) impressions of urbanism and success....

Not that I fall for it. But I still love their Java :)

[Coldrsx]

^thats the thing...it isnt about love or hate here. They are a measuring stick, insert douglas coupland joke here, for urban/suburban success.

the more we have them, a la illuminada/omega/109st/101st/etc., the more we know we are moving in the right (some might disagree) direction.

[rapid_business]

@ Cold, Douglas Coupland is a literary genius. And, yes, you are bang on with the Starbucks theory.

Back to the arena and the Journal.... good god we have a lot of narrow-minded and suburbanly stupid people in the city. I guess newspapers are supposed to be unbiased in their approach to issues, but you'd think with the brains of some of the regular writers (Simons, McKeen, Lamphier, etc.) we'd see some of that flavor in the editorial arena.

[feepa]

Yes, setting up a Starbucks in the Spruce Grove Safeway sure gave me a feeling of urbanism..

[Coldrsx]

^excluding those kind of towns and suburbs.

[Xelebes]

How about we measure with the number and variety of coffeeshops. I think that's much more important than gaging with a simple company's presence. I mean, the Starbucks in the middle of City Centre Mall does really nothing for the downtown as much as a Timmies would. It could be arguable that Sorrentinos moving downtown is a better sign than another Starbucks.

[Coldrsx]

^yes...that is true, but generally speaking a starbucks means good things are happening in an area and no i dont mean safeway ones.

[KREZ]

I have to agree with Cold on this one. As much as this is a generalization it is a good indicator of an area that possesses growth potential... much like a new WAL-MART would be a good indicator of an area of your city about to go down the toilet :)

[ExcaliburKid]

Poor forum for debate on arena
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 1:52 am
Six months ago, Edmonton Mayor Stephen Mandel could barely contain his enthusiasm over the possibility of moving the Oilers to a new downtown arena.

He set up a committee of citizens to investigate the options and come up with ideas for financing a new building.

Sadly, that committee will report in December, long after Edmontonians have cast ballots for their next city council. The result is that the subject of a new NHL facility -- one of the biggest decisions currently on the agenda affecting the future of the city -- has barely been a whisper in this municipal campaign.

Voters trying to pick a candidate for council will find little to guide their choice on this critical issue.

Would-be councillors also lack adequate information to come up with a position on whether renovating Rexall Place (at an estimated cost of $250 million) might be a better option, or whether another site should be in the running. The problem is especially acute for candidates in Ward 3 which includes Rexall Place, and Ward 4, the site of a possible downtown arena.

At a meeting with The Journal's editorial board on Tuesday, Mandel downplayed the public perception that the downtown site is the preferred or likely outcome.

"That's got nothing to do with me," he said breezily, noting the committee will look at other locations.

But the reality is he's an enthusiast for a downtown side, and the life that a state-of-the-art entertainment facility might breath into the core area. And Lyle Best, who was appointed to the arena committee by the mayor, is also keen on downtown.

"A lot of people say we won't need another arena," said Best recently. "But when you look at it, is there anything wrong with wanting an upgraded downtown core?"

Doubtless, in principle, most citizens like the sound of an upgraded downtown, but that doesn't mean everyone agrees a 20,000-seat hockey arena is a good way to accomplish that goal.

Yes, it has worked in some cities. Examples often given include Winnipeg and Columbus, Ohio.

But Edmonton chose a decade ago to revitalize its dying downtown with residential development, a smart strategy given that all the new retail stores were locating in suburban power centres, and given the reality that a flurry of highrise office construction is unlikely in this industrial town.

Mandel says he's convinced the arena would complement the residential zones in the city centre, though he concedes the scale would be inappropriate for the east-end downtown revitalization.

Sports fans would pour out of the arena into downtown restaurants and bars after the game, says Mandel. But how confident can we be of this assumption, when the experience is that outside the hockey playoffs, most fans seem to head home to their beds on week nights?

Then there's parking issue. Lots around Rexall Place hold 6,500 cars. Is that kind of parking available downtown? What do experts say about the prospect that public transit can play a bigger role for hockey fans than currently?

And what about the future of the existing building? In some ways it's a difficult site, bound tightly by Wayne Gretzky Drive, the LRT line and Yellowhead Trail.

And of course, there's the question of money. Rightly, the mayor insists no city tax dollars will be involved, but voters might profit from a more vigorous discussion of how that can be accomplished, and under what circumstances that firm commitment might be bent.

Mandel has been a strong, creative, visionary mayor. That's the major reason no high-profile challenger emerged to his leadership.

But when the mayor's race verges on a virtual acclamation, the downside is some of the tough questions don't get asked. Be clear: the foregoing is not intended to suggest that a new downtown arena is a bad idea, or that a renovation of the existing building is the only sensible course.

Rather, it is to argue that Edmontonians are missing an important opportunity to learn about, debate, and form more informed opinions about the question.

This is not Mandel's fault, of course. He has done what a mayor should do by staking out a clear position, pushing the matter forward with his committee, and waiting to see how the community might respond.

But after an election like this one, many answers will still be needed.




© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[feepa]

I don't know why the media keeps trying to turn this into an election issue. The report the commitee is putting together wont be ready until December, and you can't really say your pro or against something that hasn't come out yet. No wonder its not an election issue.

[Coldrsx]

Taxpayer-financed sports venues questioned
Susan Ruttan, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 4:47 pm

EDMONTON - While Edmonton's city council awaits a report on building a downtown arena, U.S. congressmen are questioning the wisdom of government-supported sports facility projects.

"America's infrastructure is crumbling while state and local officials approve taxpayer-financed professional sports stadiums," the domestic policy subcommittee of the House of Representatives in Washington, D.C., states in an announcement of a hearing this week on the subject.

Among the witnesses today was Prof. Judith Grant Long of Harvard University, author of a study of the true cost to governments of building major-league sports facilities.
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Long has written that the true cost to government is often hidden because it involves public subsidies for land and infrastructure, foregone property taxes, and subsidies for operating the facilities.

In a 2005 paper, she estimated the average public subsidy per facility at $177 million, based on 99 facilities in the U.S. used for major-league sports during 2001.

After an earlier hearing in March, the same subcommittee concluded that new stadiums and arenas don't really produce economic spinoffs.

Among the speakers at that hearing was University of Illinois economist Brad Humphreys.

"Professional sports facilities and franchises do not produce tangible economic benefits to the surrounding local economy," Humphreys testified. " ... Subsidies for the construction and operation of professional sports facilities cannot be viewed as a viable economic revitalization strategy for our cities. Dozens of papers published in peer-reviewed academic journals support this consensus conclusion."

The local committee, appointed by Mayor Stephen Mandel last spring, is headed by businessman Lyle Best. Like Mnadel, he's a fan of the downtown arena idea.

Mandel says an arena won't be funded by local taxpayers or by diverting money from infrastructure grants. The project is going to need "some creative financing," he told The Journal's editorial board this week.

The committee has visited two U.S. cities - Columbus, Ohio, and Kansas City, Mo. - to see their new arenas and how they were financed.

sruttan@thejournal.canwest.com


© Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

Urban expert pans downtown arena idea
Susan Ruttan, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 11:50 am

EDMONTON - True rebirth of inner cities doesn't happen with large projects like downtown arenas, a New York City expert on cities said today.

"Arenas don't revitalize, period," Roberta Brandes Gratz said in an interview after speaking to the annual conference of the Heritage Canada Foundation.

If such large projects are done, she said, how and where they're done become vital to success.
An artist's rendering of a proposed downtown arena and entertainment centre looking west.View Larger Image View Larger Image
An artist's rendering of a proposed downtown arena and entertainment centre looking west.
Supplied
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"If it's demolishing some urban fabric that should be regenerated, then it's a mistake and it's more erosion Edmonton cannot afford. You should never think that the arena will revitalize anything."

Mayor Stephen Mandel is promoting the idea of a downtown arena, and has appointed a committee to look at the feasibility of the project. The committee is to report in December.

In her keynote speech at the Fairmont Hotel Macdonald, Gratz distinguished between regrowing downtown areas, and rebuilding them. Regrowing is the way to create vital cities with life on the street and lots of little shops and cafes, using existing buildings, she said.

The most successful revived downtowns "are not the ones with a collection of large malls and big visitor attractions like stadiums, entertainment centres or aquariums."

Gratz is the author of Cities Back from the Edge: New Life for Downtown, and The Living City: Thinking Small in a Big Way.

The conference continues Saturday. The Heritage Canada Foundation is a national charity that promotes protection of heritage buildings.

As part of the conference, delegates will be touring Old Strathcona, a shopping district that has retained its older buildings.

sruttan@thejournal.canwest.com


© Edmonton Journal 2007

[ExcaliburKid]

I dont know what to think about the arena anymore. Theres too much speculation on whats great and what sucks. Obviously arenas wont revitalize every downtown. I dont understand how Roberta Brandes Gratz, or anyone else for that matter, can say it wont work without first seeing the committees proposals. On the other hand, its not fair to say it will work either without seeing the proposals. From this moment on Im changing my position from pro-arena to just being neutral.

[newfangled]

It's a blatantly stupid article.

The headline "Urban expert pans downtown arena idea" implies that she's panning the Edmonton arena, when she's actually speaking in generalities and it has nothing to do with the Edmonton plan.

"Pans" is also a resoundingly negative assessment, even though she gives caveats like: "If such large projects are done, she said, how and where they're done become vital to success." and "If it's demolishing some urban fabric that should be regenerated, then it's a mistake and it's more erosion Edmonton cannot afford." Both of those are pretty conditional. You'll get bad results if you do it badly - big surprise.

The two likely sites of a downtown arena are a BP's with the largest parking lot in the world, and a postal sorting facility which has nice architecture at its core, but which is essentially loading docks and parking lots.

Neither of these sites are part of the urban fabric, or are likely to become part of it in the future. We're not talking about bulldozing entire neighbourhoods here - we did that decades ago which is why BPlands exists in the first place.

[ExcaliburKid]

^I have the exact same thoughts. I dont think anyone will miss a desolate parking lot, or a giant warehouse, and both of these sites are vital transition areas. I believe she missed the mark with her comments, and I agree, they were very generalized and ,imo, poorly placed.

[newfangled]

^I have the exact same thoughts. I dont think anyone will miss a desolate parking lot, or a giant warehouse, and both of these sites are vital transition areas. I believe she missed the mark with her comments, and I agree, they were very generalized and ,imo, poorly placed.

I choose to blame the media for everything. :)

Someone at C2E who was at the keynote address said that the Journal had really done a spin job on this. And I think that's apparent from the article - her comments are very general, but the Journal uses them to tell a negative story. The laziest part is that they don't even attempt to frame the speech in an Edmonton context.

[rapid_business]

:hell: Susan Ruttan is the spin artist here. She's had a bias and been projecting it through myopic articles for the past couple of weeks.

[Coldrsx]

"The two likely sites of a downtown arena are a BP's with the largest parking lot in the world, and a postal sorting facility which has nice architecture at its core, but which is essentially loading docks and parking lots.

Neither of these sites are part of the urban fabric, or are likely to become part of it in the future. We're not talking about bulldozing entire neighbourhoods here - we did that decades ago which is why BPlands exists in the first place."

are yah kidding me? (in the voice of dr.cox with facial movements)

BP's land and surrounding is vitally important to the urban fabric of the downtown core...perhaps the most important land undeveloped in the downtown IMO. It is smack dab in the middle of the CBD and the entertainment/residential area.

have no doubt that it will go on the postal site.

[newfangled]

are yah kidding me? (in the voice of dr.cox with facial movements)

BP's land and surrounding is vitally important to the urban fabric of the downtown core...perhaps the most important land undeveloped in the downtown IMO. It is smack dab in the middle of the CBD and the entertainment/residential area.

To clarify: neither of these sites are part of the urban fabric right now. Both sites are very important, but there's nothing there - so bulldoze away.

(although I do like the historic core of the post office site)

[Coldrsx]

^ah...so...

BP's block is so desperately in need of mixed use it hurts.

There should be 500 people working there, 1000 living, and 1000 visiting the retail right NOW!

[ExcaliburKid]

Who owns the BPs land anyway?

[Jasper and one o nin]

Urban expert pans downtown arena idea
Susan Ruttan, edmontonjournal.com
Published: 11:50 am

EDMONTON - True rebirth of inner cities doesn't happen with large projects like downtown arenas, a New York City expert on cities said today.

"Arenas don't revitalize, period," Roberta Brandes Gratz said in an interview after speaking to the annual conference of the Heritage Canada Foundation.

If such large projects are done, she said, how and where they're done become vital to success.
An artist's rendering of a proposed downtown arena and entertainment centre looking west.View Larger Image View Larger Image
An artist's rendering of a proposed downtown arena and entertainment centre looking west.
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"If it's demolishing some urban fabric that should be regenerated, then it's a mistake and it's more erosion Edmonton cannot afford. You should never think that the arena will revitalize anything."

Mayor Stephen Mandel is promoting the idea of a downtown arena, and has appointed a committee to look at the feasibility of the project. The committee is to report in December.

In her keynote speech at the Fairmont Hotel Macdonald, Gratz distinguished between regrowing downtown areas, and rebuilding them. Regrowing is the way to create vital cities with life on the street and lots of little shops and cafes, using existing buildings, she said.

The most successful revived downtowns "are not the ones with a collection of large malls and big visitor attractions like stadiums, entertainment centres or aquariums."

Gratz is the author of Cities Back from the Edge: New Life for Downtown, and The Living City: Thinking Small in a Big Way.

The conference continues Saturday. The Heritage Canada Foundation is a national charity that promotes protection of heritage buildings.

As part of the conference, delegates will be touring Old Strathcona, a shopping district that has retained its older buildings.

sruttan@thejournal.canwest.com


© Edmonton Journal 2007
Bottom line is we need a new f@#ing arena. Where is better location? Downtown or Northlands? By her rationale, theatres are also bad. Concert halls are no good either. If done right, an arena CAN help in the revitalization. Frankly, there have been a lot of American Cities that missed the boat when placing arenas downtown. Houston is a good example. They just plopped the Toyota Centre in downtown. (but since when does Houston practice good planning principles?) Not part of an overall plan. Columbus, on the other hand, made it part of an overall plan that is VERY successfull.

[BlueRain]

Man...I'm beginning to think this will never get built. It seems that everyone running in the election is against the idea, and even oilers fans on the oilers forums and hfboards are against it. Here's to hoping.

[feepa]

Man...I'm beginning to think this will never get built. It seems that everyone running in the election is against the idea, and even oilers fans on the oilers forums and hfboards are against it. Here's to hoping.
Everyone running is against it? No, Mandel would be clearly for it.
Oiler fans are against it? No (see the polls I've done on Oilfans... most support a new arena, and support it downtown)
Hfboards? Well, clearly not the best place to base support levels on this topic

[Coldrsx]

while many would be naturally against it...it will happen and it will be downtown.

[BlueRain]

Well, I hope you guys are right. I remember a while back when the idea was first brought up on the edmontonoilers.com a lot of people were for it, but I remember being surprised at how many people were against it, too. I didn't check oilfans though, and I find that the people there are usually more sane :D. What were the results of your oilfans poll?
Didn't Mandel say that he wouldn't commit any tax dollars to it? Can it still be built without them? It seems to me, that a lot of the opposition to it isn't so much the cost, but the traffic problems that people think it will create.
Also, I know that the Journal seems to be only printing letters/articles that are against the arena (Except for a few editorials), so that paints a kind of biased picture as well. Maybe those of us who are for need to be more vocal about it.

[Coldrsx]

^traffic/parking problems are "MOO" for the attendance at a game is far less than everyday rush hour.

as for tax dollars, they wont primarily fund it, but you can bet they will be in there in different ways, which is fine IMO.

many people may be against it, but once complete people will absolutely love having it in the core.

[IKAN104]

^traffic/parking problems are "MOO" for the attendance at a game is far less than everyday rush hour.

as for tax dollars, they wont primarily fund it, but you can bet they will be in there in different ways, which is fine IMO.

many people may be against it, but once complete people will absolutely love having it in the core.

Not unlike the Churchill Square renos. A lot of people were against it at the start (mostly due to misinformation) but once complete (almost) everybody loves it. :tup:

[newfangled]

as for tax dollars, they wont primarily fund it, but you can bet they will be in there in different ways, which is fine IMO.


And on the tax dollars question, even without a new arena there's still the issue of $250M to renovate Rexall. Could Northlands cover that on their own?

A new arena complex would be seen as an investment and could bring in outside money. A new iceplant for Rexall though - not so much.

[CMD UW]

It's funny how many people are for it. However, like every other issue, those who are opposed make the most noise.

Trust me, the arena will be downtown, and I say this for reasons which I cannot disclose.

[Coldrsx]

"Trust me, the arena will be downtown, and I say this for reasons which I cannot disclose."

are you really mr.katz?

[IKAN104]

It's funny how many people are for it. However, like every other issue, those who are opposed make the most noise.

Trust me, the arena will be downtown, and I say this for reasons which I cannot disclose.

It sounds like a decision or two has already been made. What else can you "not" disclose? :D

[rapid_business]

Let's just say it involves a lot of cherry schnapps, CMD UW, Darrel Katz, a sh*tty bet, and CMD losing his Volvo. ;)

[feepa]

What were the results of your oilfans poll?


http://oilfans.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=26190&rid=367&SQ=9313712d9a829758e874df798264187a

Didn't Mandel say that he wouldn't commit any tax dollars to it? Can it still be built without them?

I think he said its going to take some creative funding

Also, I know that the Journal seems to be only printing letters/articles that are against the arena (Except for a few editorials), so that paints a kind of biased picture as well. Maybe those of us who are for need to be more vocal about it.
yes, for sure that would help. I'm sure when the commitee is done in December, thats when the for people will become more vocal.

[rapid_business]

So let's say the committee concludes tax funding will be required. The city is going to go nuts! Can you imagine the letters to the editor?

[Coldrsx]

A showcase facility
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:22 am

Re: "Build it in Gibbons," by Evelyn Gwynn, Letters, Oct. 9.

Why do people of this city continue to complain about traffic and parking? Rush hour may be frustrating, but it's nothing compared to most major cities. Parking rates are low and there's lots of availability downtown outside of office hours. A new downtown arena would be more central for all and create more opportunity for transit choice to the game.

A city's downtown should be a place for all to come and enjoy the fabric of life, be it a concert, an outdoor busker, a patio, or a hockey game.
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Downtown Edmonton has made huge strides in the past few years with redevelopment and this would continue this trend and bolster clientele for shops, restaurants and hotels.

We have a choice: we can create a core to be proud of and to show off, or we can suck the life out of it and ship everything to the 'burbs. How do you want your city to be remembered?

Ian O'Donnell, Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

No public money
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:22 am

So, Mayor Stephen Mandel plans to build a new arena downtown.

If taxpayers are forced to subsidize its cost, does that mean we will have free admission to "our" arena to enjoy all the activity offered there?

Mandel says it will revitalize the area. Has he seen how much "vitality" there is on 118th Avenue before and after an event at Rexall Place?
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If the Edmonton Oilers or other circus performers want a new building, let them invest their own money.

A venue of this sort should be financed solely by private entrepreneurs.

Klaus Reidl, Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

As vibrant as 118th Avenue
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:22 am

For those of us with a taste for the absurd, the prospect of a debate over a downtown arena is filled with promise.

That the citizens of Edmonton could be convinced to pay for an arena that almost certainly won't justify itself on economic grounds doesn't at first blush make sense. But then, it doesn't have to make sense, because the "concept" is that a new arena will revive downtown Edmonton.

The word "vibrant" -- as in a vibrant city core -- has been used in this connection. The idea seems to be to make downtown Edmonton as vibrant as the area around 118th Avenue and Gretzky Drive is now.
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My personal favourite, though, is the response to criticism of the project based on the traffic congestion it will inevitably cause and the scarcity of parking in the city centre. "Not to worry," we're told. "A lot of season's tickets are owned by business people who already park downtown. They can just walk to the games from work." These would be the same men in suits, ties loosened, hair down, that we see pouring off the LRT at Rexall on game nights?

The arguments made for a new velodrome on the edge of Mill Creek ravine to serve the devotees of indoor track cycling are more straightforwardly delusional, and a touch more sinister coming as they do from the city's planning department. But for my money, they lack the fanciful charm of the case for a downtown arena.

Vincent Marrinelli,

Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007


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---------------------------------------------------

Post-coliseum culture
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:22 am

Re. "Poor forum for debate on arena," Editorial, Oct. 10.

What about other options to a downtown arena?

Hasn't society grown out of giving attention to coliseum activities and the antics of "gladiators"?
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Is no one doing a critique of the endless narcissistic egotism that goes into these activities, the obscenities of salaries paid and so on? Isn't it time to move on?

Might we not instead craft a citizens auxiliary? Could we not offer a training program in, under and through which citizens -- the mega numbers of caring, intelligent, conscientious folks -- might give their energy, time, money and imagination to activities that have some potential for regeneration, redemption and reformation locally, nationally and internationally?

Citizens of conviction and vision, young and old, would meet weekly for training and preparation for deployment. They would study models of service, peruse commemorations lists of saints and renegades (the Schweitzers, Hammarskjolds, Gandhis, Norman Bethunes of this world; Nobel prize winners; nongovernment organizations, etc.).

They would, in turn, spend weeks and months, maybe years, sorting out what new, fresh and responsible service they could offer the human community.

Could this not be a mature alternative to what is becoming endless, weary boredom, the continued juvenile indulgence of coliseum culture, even its evil?

Isn't it time we considered alternatives to coliseum culture?

Roy Pudrycki,

Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

oh god...


Merits of new arena overstated
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:22 am

How does Mayor Stephen Mandel expect the proposed arena to revitalize the downtown? Only a small percentage of Edmontonians use Rexall Place now, and even at that, any event there causes a traffic nightmare.

Going to an event at an arena usually is a long, exhausting prospect -- how many people would hang around downtown after the event and why?

Why not just refurbish the existing arena, with its ample parking, for a fraction of the cost?
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Having a huge building and acres of parking space downtown would be an eyesore. Why not use that land to create green spaces and unique shopping/entertainment areas like Vancouver's Gastown? A few well-planned condo complexes, shops and restaurants would revitalize the city core and attract tourists.

Bonney Gaalaas,

Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[newfangled]

I gotta say, all of these letters to the editor show what a remarkably poor job the "pro-arena" side is doing. Well, that and editorial bias.

But there are a few simple talking points that the pro-side really need to get out there, and it's apparently not happening.

Ample existing parking.
All new parking would be underground.
LRT links and Road links which already serve significantly more traffic.
Arena/Hotel/Casino/Restaurant/Shopping Complex to add vibrancy during the day, before events, and possibly after as well.
An arena is for a lot more that Oilers games and the Circus (where did that come from?)
$250M to renovate Rexall with minimal benefit.
No tax dollars (which Mandel does keep mentioning, but which people apparently don't believe).

So far this shouting match seems to be almost completely one-sided. (except for that Ian guy...;))

[Jasper and one o nin]

Ive sent letters on the pro side, and they have not been published.

[Jasper and one o nin]

i didnt notice if Ian's letter made it in, did it?

[Coldrsx]

^yup...look up

[newfangled]

Ive sent letters on the pro side, and they have not been published.

I'm talking beyond letters to the editor.

People who support the arena and who are in a positions of power really need to get in the game. I'm not even sure who is on the pro-side - Mandel is, but anyone else?

Right now, all of the talk is anti-arena - whether that's yokels or utopians or Urban Experts. And it's all based around misconceptions - parking, traffic, taxes, that renovating Rexall will apparently be free, and on and on.

For there to be an actual debate these misconceptions need to be set straight, in the public forum, by someone "official." After all of the strawmen arguments are knocked down then we can start to have an actual discussion.

As the nightmare flipside, look at the HSR. There's an almost unending stream of official comments supporting HSR and all of its magical benefits, with very little questioning of just how insane it is.

[BlueRain]

Yesterdays letters were definetely annoying. Someone needs to explain to these people that there's a difference between building an arena in a downtown that already has some life vs. building one by a virtual dead zone (118th)...Its like trying to inject life into a corpse there. Does anyone else care to explain to me other reasons for Rexall's failing to do so? (I'm genuinely curious)

Ben Henderson (pretty much the only ward 4 candidate that I though I might be able to count on being pro-arena) replied to my e-mail arguing the same thing: The Coliseum/Rexall has done nothing to revitalize 118th since being built so why should this work with downtown? Also, he argued about traffic in the core. Most games on weekdays are at 7:00 and are well passed rush hour, and traffic is virtually non-existant downtown at that time. As for weekends, there is traffic at night, (On Friday and Saturday) but most of it is concentrated well west of 104th street, and while game/concertgoers driving would raise the traffic level, would it really be that much to cause a significant problem? (I would guess no, but correct me if youbelieve otherwise). Obviously, some people would be unhappy about it, but would they really lose any sleep over it?

Also, if the arena were to be built on the canada post site, would there even be enough room to accomodate an arena AND a giant parking lot like the naysayers keep claiming? I'm not sure but my guess would be no. (Again-please correct me if I'm wrong)

Lastly, we who are pro-arena need to drill in the idea that it would be a multi-use facility for more than just the Oilers 41 nights a year. I read somewhere that in 2006 Rexall was the 12th busiest concert venue in North America...I'm not sure exactly how many there were though. This arena won't be an ugly block like rexall either, I'm sure that it will look quite appealing from the street/anywhere-so count out the eyesore argument as well (though that one isnt quite as popular). Does anyone have any examples of arenas with storefronts/restaurants right ont he street/sidewalk?

I really am getting quite annoyed by the lack of pro-arena letters that the Journal prints. And when the do print one (i.e. yesterday), they make sure its outnumbered by four others that are against the idea. If done right (which I believe it really could/will be)--this arena will be a big step forward for our downtown core...And I can stop being embarrassed when they show footage of Rexall place on HNIC :D .

[murman]

Also, if the arena were to be built on the canada post site, would there even be enough room to accomodate an arena AND a giant parking lot like the naysayers keep claiming? I'm not sure but my guess would be no. (Again-please correct me if I'm wrong)

Well, one might hope that the St@t10nl@nds might be available for a parking lot.

I really am getting quite annoyed by the lack of pro-arena letters that the Journal prints. And when the do print one (i.e. yesterday), they make sure its outnumbered by four others that are against the idea.

I'm firmly convinced that the Journal is taking its orders from the Herald, who is part of the Calgary-centered HSR conspiracy and is trying make a new downtown Edmonton arena "suck", in order to be able to secure the Post Office site for an HSR terminal. :banana:

[SHOFEAR]

/\ The weirdest thing is that the Journal is one of the part owners in the Oilers correct? you'd think they would be doing whatever they can for public opinion....

[newfangled]

I'm firmly convinced that the Journal is taking its orders from the Herald, who is part of the Calgary-centered HSR conspiracy and is trying make a new downtown Edmonton arena "suck", in order to be able to secure the Post Office site for an HSR terminal. :banana:

I'm not usually one for anti-edmonton conspiracies, but the complete incompetence of both the pro-arena and anti-HSR lobbies have me wondering.

[adeep88]

Okay, seems like alot of you are in the pro camp for a new arena.

But tell answer me these tough questions

Under what basis should taxpayers fund new arena projects? Where would you place the new arena and why?

Are there any existing reports or public journals claiming tangible economic benefits for the city? Is there a link from the EDE that states the Oilers bring in tangible economic benefits to Edmonton? Any evidence elsewhere that arena's spur development in surrounding areas, in cities comparable in size of Edmonton? Is so, why is the surrounding area besides Rexall a dump?

What are the non-economic benefits?

Say the city has to partially fund the arena cost. What method should be used to fund the arena? What method minimizes public risk?

[feepa]

adeep88 - did you read any posts in this thread?

[adeep88]

adeep88 - did you read any posts in this thread?

Yeah I read alot of those articles, but some of them are from BIASED sources.

All economic studies show that sports arena's don't produce tangible economic benefits.

Anyways, it's up to you if you want to answer those questions in one post.

[newfangled]

Yeah I read alot of those articles, but some of them are from BIASED sources.

All economic studies show that sports arena's don't produce tangible economic benefits.

Anyways, it's up to you if you want to answer those questions in one post.

My answer: $250M to renovate Rexall.

I don't know who would pay for that, but I don't see much outside money coming in. And that leaves Northlands - a non-profit organization that is in the middle of building-out the Agricom - and the city of Edmonton.

A new arena complex at least has some chance of attracting investors, and it might spur some office, hotel or condo development too.

[Kevin_foster]

Yeah I read alot of those articles, but some of them are from BIASED sources.

All economic studies show that sports arena's don't produce tangible economic benefits.

Anyways, it's up to you if you want to answer those questions in one post.

What "economic studies" are you referring to? The one's put out by the Sun?

Repeat after me (and do it 500 times)- No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. ... etc.

[CanadianCentaur]

What "economic studies" are you referring to? The one's put out by the Sun?

Repeat after me (and do it 500 times)- No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. No public tax dollars will be used in the creation of a new arena. ... etc.

No thanks, I'll stop right here. I personally can't see the new arena built built without at least some tax dollars being used - unless maybe the city got even more creative in funding or the province became super-generous.

[Jasper and one o nin]

Are there any existing reports or public journals claiming tangible economic benefits for the city? Is there a link from the EDE that states the Oilers bring in tangible economic benefits to Edmonton?

The entire Edmonton Downtown area redevelopment plan mindset was based on bringing people downtown.. More housing, more pedestrian friendly retail, street orientated and people orientated uses, arts and culture (theatre, musuems etc...) and no, an arena was not considered in the plan, but it does support the spirit and intent of the plan and supports the economic activity of the downtown.
The key is, a major arena must be done as a comprehensive plan. I have been to Cities in the states where it does not work at all. Houston's Toyota Centre - situated in a lousy area between empty lots and parking structures. And it sucks. But then again, Houston's downtown is a huge wasteland at night. Houston, and many other US Cities, are vast vehicle orientated sprawling wastelands. There is NO reason to stick around downtown after a game because they literally have to drive 50 miles to get home. AND, there is nothing to do downtown at night. As urban renewal projects they are doomed to fail - because it will not work in most US cities because of their lack of decentralized suburban structure.
But if you create a urban design friendly area, with shops and restaurants and cool things to see and do. It will be successful. An arena is just one peice of the puzzle. Edmonton could work if it is part of a much larger project. Either way, downtown is still a better location than 118 street.
On a related note, during the 2005 stanley cup finals, the Raliegh NBC local news did a peice on Edmonton and laughed at the location of Rexall, the grain elevators, the lack of hotels ...

[feepa]

Expect an announcement about the arena in the next 2 weeks.

[4unot2no]

I sure hope it is DT, or im gonna be pissed

Kick off a new entertainment district would be awesome

[240glt]

Expect an announcement about the arena in the next 2 weeks

You mean the new Epcor Centre ? :banana:

Has kind-of a nice ring to it, doesn't it ?

[Coldrsx]

Expect an announcement about the arena in the next 2 weeks.

seriously?

[rapid_business]

Source?

[Coldrsx]

I have to admit that the following would be a nice christmas present trifecta.


1. stationlands office tower #1 - EPCOR announcement
2. new 4 star hyatt in the middle of the project
3. arena announced on post office site

[feepa]

Pure speculation at this point folks, an educated guess? Mandel has said before to expect something short of an announcement in December

[4unot2no]

Wasnt a decision from the members on the panel created, by the city/ oilers/North Lands expected before the new year??

[feepa]

Wasnt a decision from the members on the panel created, by the city/ oilers/North Lands expected before the new year??

yup, and that's where my speculation is coming from. Nothing will happen between Dec 22 - Jan 2, so I figure we get something before then.

[Spencer]

Perhaps at the same time as the Epcor - Stationlands announcement... Maybe they will announce the Office tower, Hotel and arena all at the same time.

[hilman]

Drool......:drooling:

[ExcaliburKid]

Is there actually a hotel going in there? I thought for now just a tower/arena/casino?

[Coldrsx]

^hotel is very much a likely part of the package with a new arena/casino

[CanadianCentaur]

^I hope it's something more along the lines of a Marriott, Hyatt or a Sheraton. I don't ever want to see the world's largest/tallest Super 8 go up there!

[brento79]

my vote = hilton or sofitel

[Coldrsx]

realistically it would be a sheraton, hilton, or hyatt imo

[ibz]

knowing edmonton it will be a 4 points sheraton or maybe the Qualico Inn

[brento79]

I honestly think out of all the brands it will be Hilton because they are really expanding that brand in Canada right now.

[CanadianCentaur]

I forgot about the Hilton chain, but that's one chain I'd like to see returning/coming to downtown Edmonton. Didn't the Sutton Place Hotel used to be a Hilton for a while? That hotel's gone through three or four chains now!

[noodlenoodle]

The Sutton Place was the Four Seasons when I was a kid, but I know it was a Hilton in '89 for my sister's grad, and still the Hilton in '95 for my own. (In the same ballroom.)