[CanadianCentaur]

I definitely remember that being a Four Seasons when I was a kid, too. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

[rapid_business]

It was also a Sheraton.

[CMD UW]

Four Seasons > Hilton > Sheraton > Sutton Place (which is doing very well thanks to Richard Wong)

[BlueRain]

There's a discussion on a downtown arena on the oilers board now if anyone is interested: http://forums.edmontonoilers.com/index.php?showtopic=37967

Most people seem to be in favour of putting it downtown, but a few are against the idea..."put it in South Edmonton Common"..."Don't use Tax dollars"..."Traffic will be terrible" etc.

[edmontonoilers89]

There's a discussion on a downtown arena on the oilers board now if anyone is interested: http://forums.edmontonoilers.com/index.php?showtopic=37967

Most people seem to be in favour of putting it downtown, but a few are against the idea..."put it in South Edmonton Common"..."Don't use Tax dollars"..."Traffic will be terrible" etc.

People who oppose a downtown arena are seeing it the wrong way when they argue that an arena does not need to be subsidized by tax payer money. If a downtown arena is in the works, then the city must do a better job of explaining that if indeed some tax payer money would go into a new downtown arena, they're not just subsidizing a stand alone facility, but rather a facility thats an anchor for a broader downtown development with offices, condos, hotels, recreational centers, parks, and etc similar to the lofts and brewery district in Columbus, Ohio. Of course, for that to be the argument, that has to be the actual plan that the city is hoping to develop, and I'd be pissed if the project consisted of just an arena and nothing else.

I wrote a paper on this exact topic in my Business of Hockey class at the UofA this semester. Our prof is on the committee that should be publishing a report on the status of the arena and he shared this same view, and based on what he's said, I'm optimistic something will be announced pretty soon.

He's setting up a conference about effects of downtown arenas in cities in Edmonton soon, and I'll let you guys know when that'll be happening.

[rapid_business]

Business of Hockey class? now that would be a good elective to take!

[tony0911]

The people who don't want the arena downtown are the residents in the outlying counties because they won't be able to take a freeway to get to the game. *%#$ them.

[ibz]

Business of Hockey class? now that would be a good elective to take!

They had an economics of pro sports class at my school. it was quite a popular elective!

[Coldrsx]

i dont think people realize how convenient and fun a downtown rink will be for them...people will actually be able to walk to a pub or restaurant without getting the hiv.

[ibz]

i dont think people realize how convenient and fun a downtown rink will be for them...people will actually be able to walk to a pub or restaurant without getting the hiv.

We dont do that 'walking' thing here cold. lol

[CanadianCentaur]

i dont think people realize how convenient and fun a downtown rink will be for them...people will actually be able to walk to a pub or restaurant without getting the hiv.

getting the hiv?! :sly:

[Hardhatdan]

We dont do that 'walking' thing here cold. lol
I drive across the street to talk to my neighbor. Right up the front steps.

[Spencer]

I drive across the street to talk to my neighbor. Right up the front steps.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/Spencer75_2006/Carinhousepic.jpg

Dan's neighbor's house.

[Hardhatdan]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/Spencer75_2006/Carinhousepic.jpg

Dan's neighbor's house.
After the SSP Christmas meet...don't let Ginty drive.

[edmontonoilers89]

Business of Hockey class? now that would be a good elective to take!

It's a 4th year class in the Phys Ed Department. If you're a phys ed major or in Business at the UofA you can take it, and since I'm in business, this was a class that I definitely was going to take!

[CanadianCentaur]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/Spencer75_2006/Carinhousepic.jpg

Dan's neighbor's house.

Holy Shit! Looks like somebody just backed that car into the house! Is that what really happened?

[rapid_business]

It's a 4th year class in the Phys Ed Department. If you're a phys ed major or in Business at the UofA you can take it, and since I'm in business, this was a class that I definitely was going to take!

Yeah, doesn't work for me here at UWaterloo, but interesting none-the-less.

[BlueRain]

So what would be the ideal counter argument to people who say that Rexall has done nothing to revitalize the area around it(118th)? It seems that most poeple dont understand the barriers created by the roads, trains, and the northlands exhibition grounds.

[Coldrsx]

^when you start off with an undesirable area and try to salvage it with something like an arena.

And while East Jasper is "up and coming"...this arena is DOWNTOWN, not East jasper.

[rapid_business]

Not to mention there was no plan ever put in place in the tough area that it sits now.

But physical boundaries are huge. It's isolated from all around.

[Edmonchuck]

The people who don't want the arena downtown are the residents in the outlying counties because they won't be able to take a freeway to get to the game. *%#$ them.

yep...and yep

[hilman]

Hopefully the new Katz offer goes through to buy the Oilers. That could "fast track" a new barn downtown.......

Exciting December so far!!

Regards

[240glt]

So what would be the ideal counter argument to people who say that Rexall has done nothing to revitalize the area around it(118th)? It seems that most poeple dont understand the barriers created by the roads, trains, and the northlands exhibition grounds.

Arenas have never good for residential neighborhoods. If anything, that area would improve if those two moved out. Of course, the arena will always be there, but it certainly never consisted of anything that could make the neighborhood better.

[mick]

Poorly integrated arenas certainly never have. However, there is no reason an arena could not be designed to integrate well into a neighbourhood.

[Shodan]

December 14, 2007 - Edmonton Sun

All eyes on billionaire's bid
City councillor says public vote needed before new arena for the Edmonton Oilers can be built

By FRANK LANDRY, CITY HALL BUREAU

Daryl Katz

The city shouldn't sink tax dollars into a downtown arena without first holding a public vote on the matter, says a city councillor.

"That's the kind of thing that would probably have to go to a plebiscite for the citizens to decide whether they want to spend that money," said Coun. Kim Krushell.

She was reacting to news that Rexall Drugs founder and chairman Daryl Katz has made a new offer of $188 million to purchase the Edmonton Oilers and the team's related assets.

In a release, Katz said the centrepiece of his vision would be a "new, world-class arena complex at the heart of a revitalized downtown."

He pledged $100 million towards a new building.

Mayor Stephen Mandel and councillors have said for some time that tax dollars wouldn't go into the building.


But Krushell - who also sits on the Northlands board, which runs Rexall Place - questioned whether that's realistic.

"You start wondering how are they going to pull off a new arena without any tax dollars going to it," she said. "As far as I know, there is no such arena that's ever been built anywhere in North America without having significant tax dollars going to it."

In April, Mandel announced a committee to look into the feasibility of building a hockey barn to replace the aging Rexall Place.

He's made it no secret his preferred location is downtown, immediately north of City Hall.

Yesterday, Mandel said he doesn't expect the group's finding to be released until next month.

He said he doesn't know what the report will recommend, or how much a new arena would cost.

There's speculation it would be more than $500 million.

"What we need to do is get some reports back ... and evaluate it to see what will happen," Mandel said. "I don't know anything more than you do about the arena."

The mayor said renovating Rexall is still an option.

Northlands president Ken Knowles suggested if a new hockey barn is built, his organization should continue to operate it.

"We really understand how to make arenas work and be successful," he said in a release. "We believe we are a pivotal part of any new arena for Edmonton."

Cal Nichols, chairman of the Oilers ownership group, conceded "it's probably time to pass the torch to a new generation of ownership.

"I believe that Daryl will be an outstanding owner of the Edmonton Oilers and an important leader in the growth of our city," he said in a release.

Mandel said he doesn't believe Katz would move the team from the City of Champions.

"Let's put it in perspective," Mandel told reporters. "The City of Edmonton is probably one of the two or three best places in North America to play hockey, to watch hockey.

"Moving the team out of here would make no sense whatsoever."

[Shodan]

Katz closes in on Oilers
Sweetened offer, including $100M for new arena, persuades chairman to offer his shares to Rexall magnate

John MacKinnon
The Edmonton Journal

Friday, December 14, 2007

EDMONTON - In a stunning, 180-degree reversal provoked by a split among the 33-member Edmonton Investors Group, board chairman Cal Nichols has had a change of heart and opted to sell his Oilers shares to Daryl Katz, the local drugstore billionaire, who this week submitted a new, $190-million offer to buy the NHL club.

"I am extremely proud of what the EIG has done for the Oilers, the city of Edmonton, and Oilers fans everywhere, but it's probably time to pass the torch to a new generation of ownership," Nichols said in a statement released by the Katz Group, which owns the Rexall drugstore chain as well as several others.

"I believe that Daryl will be an outstanding owner of the Edmonton Oilers and an important leader in the growth of our city.

"In addition, the sale of the team will have served all my fellow shareholders very well."

The purchase offer, the fourth made by Katz, includes a pledge to put up $100 million in cash for a proposed new downtown arena complex, a project that could cost as much as $500 million. The written offer was submitted to all 33 owners and comes with a Jan. 31 deadline to accept it or not. Throughout this process, Katz has made clear he wants outright ownership of the club, not a partnership.

Nichols said the EIG's structure requires 66 and-two-thirds per cent of the shares for outright control. What if owners representing only 66 per cent of the shares agreed to sell to Katz, Nichols was asked.

"Both the buyer and the sellers will have decisions to make," Nichols said. "Whether they are hell-bent to keep it as it is, or hell-bent to go in another direction."

In a statement, Katz praised Nichols, who resigned Monday as EIG board chair, and pledged to "continue (the) tradition with a commitment to strong local ownership and an exciting vision for the Oilers. The centrepiece of that vision is a new world-class arena complex at the heart of a revitalized downtown."

Katz said if the deal is accepted, he will ask Nichols, who is believed to own about 10 per cent of the team, to stay on as board chairman to lead the arena project and continue as the Oilers representative on the NHL board of governors. Nichols said it's premature to make such a commitment.

It also remains to be seen if the other EIG members all will agree to sell to Katz, who initially offered to buy the team last April for $145 million, then upped the ante to $150 million.

On Aug. 7, Katz's third offer of $185 million was firmly rejected by Nichols and the ownership group. Nichols response at that time was chilly. He suggested Katz's offer amounted to a hostile takeover and spoke of the "collateral damage" it had caused the EIG.

As well, Nichols was adamant then that the large, broadly based ownership group was the perfect fit for the Oilers and for Edmonton.

But at a news conference Thursday at Rexall Place, Nichols said circumstances -- and Katz's offer -- had changed significantly since then. He said the August offer called for an asset purchase whose $185-million price tag really was closer to $125 million, or $18,000 a share.

The current offer is for all 7,492 of the EIG's shares, at $20,560 a share.

"It's clearer," Nichols said of the new offer. "As a shareholder selling my shares, it's much easier to understand.

"And I think it's more tangible than what we were dealing with before."

At the EIG's annual general meeting on Oct. 18, the members were asked to indicate whether they wanted to sell or stay on, a non-binding vote that revealed a 50-50 split.

Given a "retirement value" for the franchise pegged at $135 million, buying out half of the shares would cost the remaining owners $70 million.

Coupled with the major capital outlay of around $100 million as the Oilers' share of a new arena, the costs were becoming too steep even for the passionate, committed Nichols.

"I saw the arena capital requirement of the Oilers having to contribute significantly to it," he said.

"How was that going to be raised?" Nichols said. "By cash calls to us as individual shareholders, or by more debt?

"To me, having spent 10 years doing this, I felt these were, in my opinion, steep hills to climb and I personally was running out of gas."

Nichols, a community visionary above all, confided in his wife, Edna, did some soul searching, consulted with lawyers and accountants and concluded it made sense for him to divest. And it made sense that a man like Katz was better positioned to lead the costly new arena project.

"So the next morning, I resigned (as board chairman) and I also declared that my shares would be for sale."

It's believed some owners such as Bruce Saville and Jim Hole have been looking to sell for a while and may have encouraged Katz to make a purchase offer in the first place. A call to Saville was not returned. Katz, too, was unavailable for comment.

Asked if the persistent Katz simply was not going to go away, given the encouragement he was receiving from several owners, Nichols said: "There were a number -- and I'm not sure how big the number was -- that continued to talk to him.

"(Katz) kept his ear extremely close to the ground on what was going on with the Oilers."

Nichols said he had an hour-long discussion with Katz a month ago, and that Katz's focus was the downtown arena project.

"He made it clear that he simply did not want to go there unless he owned the hockey team," Nichols said. "And I guess if I was in a position to do so, that would be the way that I would approach it."

Katz has been by far the Oilers largest corporate sponsor, as well as a key contributor to numerous significant Edmonton projects. In November 2003, the Katz Group signed a 10-year, naming-rights deal -- believed to be worth $20 million -- on the Oilers' current home. He made a major, last-minute contribution last summer to underwrite the Edmonton Grand Prix motor race, part of the Champ Car circuit.

When the Oilers' recent Cash is King lottery, raising money for an inner-city school, struggled to break even, Katz wrote a large cheque to ensure it would not lose money.

The 46-year-old, who lives in a mansion built for him recently, overlooking the North Saskatchewan River, donated $7 million to the U of A's Centre for Pharmacy and Health Research, an amount matched by the provincial government.

His is the kind of wealth that need not resort to mere cash calls. Katz just cuts eye-popping cheques. If the owners all decide to sell, Katz will be cutting some sizeable cheques to the EIG, a group that truly saved the Oilers from relocation if not oblivion.

"There were times I never thought I'd see my money again," said Nichols, who stands to double his initial investment. "I guess this really proved that with good management, stick-to-itiveness and doing all the right things, that part of it worked out very well."

There was some immediate support shown for Katz's offer and what it will mean to the city from the local business community.

"One has to look at it as very positive," said Northlands board chairman Jerry Bouma. "You have a local entrepreneur who really wants to make a big commitment.

"We have a group of investors who have been really committed for 10 years, so they've brought the team to this point. We have an organization -- in this case, Northlands -- who have been there all along, making sure they've got a place to play in. I think we can all bring it to the next level."

Doug Goss, who chairs the Oilers Community Foundation and held a similar post with the 2003 Heritage Classic event, and who has known Katz since their days in law school, was equally enthusiastic.

"A world-class city starts with world-class facilities," Goss said. "I know Daryl sees that; it's part of his vision for a city that he deeply cares about. Given the prosperous times we're living in, if this isn't the time for the city to really think big, when will we?"

© The Edmonton Journal 2007

Copyright © 2007 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

[IKAN104]

Exciting times. But I do wonder how a $500 million dollar arena will be paid for.

[Kevin_foster]

^ Tax Payers! Hopefully! :D

/sarcasm

[fortroad]

The Arena Has to be partly funded by public means. Some from the province and YES some from the city. It is the people of Edmonton that will benefit the most from a new arena and we should have to dish in our fair share.

[noodlenoodle]

The arena will not be available for indiscriminate public use, so it should not be paid for with public money indiscriminately obtained (read: taxes). You want to stick a levy on a user fee, go right ahead. Hands off the public tax dollars for the arena.

[Coldrsx]

Exciting times. But I do wonder how a $500 million dollar arena will be paid for.

it better not be $500million...


300-400 i can understand, but anything more is a terminal 1

[noodlenoodle]

I can see the costs exceeding $500m easily for the entire complex, if not the arena proper.

Let's not remember that $200m isn't enough for a proper museum expansion or interchange in this town currently. The new arena would be a mammoth undertaking and to do it right and accomplish the goals we have for it will not be a cheap feat.

[Kevin_foster]

I'd expect it to be around $500,000,000. Maybe 50 million on other side.

Where are they going to get the $$? I don't know. Bake Sales maybe?? :) Maybe host a few bingos etc.

Or perhaps the new ownership should build a 100 Million dollar casino (using Katz money), and use all the profits to fund the new arena.

[Jasper and one o nin]

A $500 M dollar arena will not be a world class arena with what the cost of construction is right now. I think it would be safe to say the cost will be between $750 and $1B

[rapid_business]

Seriously though... where does money come from to pay for these things.

@ Noodlenoodle... sports teams are economic generators. Cities can ensure their economic success and the longevity of team in their market with the construction of new arenas. Sure it's a bait and switch game at times, but it's the truth. I don't know what amount is suitable, but I can say that if a city is ignorant enough to let a sports franchise disappear because they refused to hand over a cheque for a couple million, they have more problems then the loss of a sports team.

[noodlenoodle]

I never said that there should not be some level of civic funding, I just indicated that it should not come from current taxation.

Levy new fees and taxes on those who would gain the benefit from the team and the arena. Let the halo effect pay for itself.

[MalcolmTucker]

A $500 M dollar arena will not be a world class arena with what the cost of construction is right now. I think it would be safe to say the cost will be between $750 and $1B

Over the last decade, Ottawa was 200 million, Toronto was 265, and Montreal was 270.

Montreal was a little higher than what it would have cost to build the same facility here because it was built over a train-station.

The most expensive NHL arena by far is Dallas, $420 million. They got $200 million for naming rights, which I assume Katz will take with the $100 million. The newest stadium in the league (New Jersey) was in the $300 million range.

I would place a stadium in the $350 million range for Edmonton.

[Mikemike]

It might cost closer to 450 if we wanted to start right now, and fast track, but if we're looking at building starting in a couple years, with an unconstrained site, I think 350 is about right.

Do those costs for recent arenas include land?

[Coldrsx]

^generally no...and in this case it will be interesting because Canada Post will need to build a new facility before any arena can go there.

[rapid_business]

I thought it wasn't really being used by Canada Post at all???

[EdmTrekker]

^generally no...and in this case it will be interesting because Canada Post will need to build a new facility before any arena can go there.

Hmmm...last time that was discussed Canada Post planned to relocate sorting to Calgary. Our Anne put a stop to that...maybe we will lose a few hundred jobs if that does happen...

[Coldrsx]

^it is one of their main shops

[feepa]

^generally no...and in this case it will be interesting because Canada Post will need to build a new facility before any arena can go there.
They dont need a new facility. They can do everything out at 149 st. Thats where most of it is done from what I've heard.
I've also heard rumours that they have been ramping down production and use of the downtown location for years.
Does the crown corporation own the land, or does the government own the land? If the gov of canada owns the land - I'm sure it could be transferred without much cost?

[Coldrsx]

^i have a feeling the feds own it and would then "sell it" to the city which would then give it to the new rink group as "their part"

[noodlenoodle]

They dont need a new facility. They can do everything out at 149 st. Thats where most of it is done from what I've heard.
I've also heard rumours that they have been ramping down production and use of the downtown location for years.
Does the crown corporation own the land, or does the government own the land? If the gov of canada owns the land - I'm sure it could be transferred without much cost?

That's what I've heard from a few people @ Canada Post, the site is administrative at the most, vestigial at the least.

[Coldrsx]

^when i have been there for mail drops...it is quite busy and quite full with trucks and packages.

[feepa]

^when i have been there for mail drops...it is quite busy and quite full with trucks and packages.

try seeing their plant on 149st...114ave? somewhere on 149st though

[Coldrsx]

Downtown arena closer to reality
Mandel welcomes Katz offer to add $100M to pot
Susan Ruttan and Jim Farrell, The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:00 am

EDMONTON - Mayor Stephen Mandel welcomed Daryl Katz's offer to put $100 million toward a new downtown arena, but said the purchase of the team was a matter for the owners, not politicians.

"Daryl Katz is a very smart businessman," Mandel said. "I'm sure he'll be a wonderful owner."

He's confident that Katz won't move the team out of Edmonton, which he calls "one of the two or three best places in North America to play hockey, to watch hockey."
Hockey traffic jams on the streets around Rexall Place could be a thing of the past if new Oilers ownership leads to a new arena.View Larger Image View Larger Image
Hockey traffic jams on the streets around Rexall Place could be a thing of the past if new Oilers ownership leads to a new arena.
Shaughn Butts, The Journal, File
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Mandel is expecting a report next month from a committee he struck this year to look at building a new arena downtown or in another location.

The mayor refused to speculate on the possible cost of a downtown arena, or the impact inflation on the final cost.

As many as eight $1-billion bitumen upgraders are being built northeast of Edmonton over the next decade.

Coun. Kim Krushell, who sits on the Northlands board, said she'll call for a public plebiscite if those pushing a new arena want a large amount of taxpayers' money.

"If we were to have a request coming to city council asking for, say ... $750 million in tax money to go to this, I think that's the kind of thing that would probably have to go to a plebiscite," said Krushell.

Adding major costs of a new arena on top of the city's many other obligations, "would not be very palatable out there in the public," she said.

Krushell wants any new arena to be operated by Northlands.

That view was echoed by Northlands president Ken Knowles in a press release.

"We believe we are a pivotal part of any new arena for Edmonton," the release said.

In the same news release, Northlands chairman Jerry Bouma said "there's an appetite for an enhanced arena" in the city.

The executive director of the downtown business association likes the idea of Katz buying the Oilers and loves the fact that a new downtown arena just became more likely with Katz offering $100 million towards the cost.

The arena, if it is built, will anchor a series of confirmed developments in the downtown's northeast quadrant and render those nearby developments more successful, Jim Taylor said.

"Last week, Epcor announced its tower on station lands," Taylor said. "That is just the first of the dominos on station lands on the stretch between 100th Street and 97th Street."

"The next thing, as Qualico Developments would tell you, would be a hotel behind the proposed site for the arena. "It's a positive development for that corner, where the arena is likely to go. If the arena is built, it will be the nucleus of $1.5 billion in development."

Many Edmontonians have grumbled about the prospect of constructing a new home for the Oilers and the costs that would be incurred. That is too narrow a view of the project, Taylor said.

"This is all about things connecting. The arena was never meant to be an isolated thing.

"It's not just a sheet of ice but it's a community arena complex."

Jfarrell@thejournal.canwest.com

sruttan@thejournal.canwest.com


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Edmonchuck]

try seeing their plant on 149st...114ave? somewhere on 149st though

I agree, 149 is HUUUUUUUGE.

[fortroad]

Perhaps the provincial government will be kind enough to fund the whole project? LMAO

[MalcolmTucker]

Perhaps the provincial government will be kind enough to fund the whole project? LMAO

Well, if the city gives them any money the province can claim that. Soon enough they will be transferring close to 500 million a year to the city...

[Coldrsx]

well i guess im going to be writing a reply..ARGH!

-----------------------------------------------------

Downtown arena has too much downside
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:32 am

Re: "Downtown arena closer to reality: Mandel welcomes Katz offer to add $100M to pot," The Journal, Dec. 14.

As the pressure for a downtown arena increases, I hope city council will have the courage to resist.

The tidal wave of parking demand created by an arena would swamp the parking facilities that have slowly grown to accommodate the downtown cultural complex: the library, the Citadel, the Winspear and the art gallery -- not to mention shopping and restaurant facilities.
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The proximity of an LRT station will have no more effect on parking demand than it has for the current arena in the northeast.

Thousands will continue to travel by car to hockey games.

If patrons of the downtown arts and shopping facilities cannot park because hockey fans have filled the parkades, they will stay home. Boards of the arts facilities will then have to choose between letting their organizations die or moving to new locations -- a consequence which will add millions of dollars to the ultimate cost of building a downtown arena.

There is no need to set the arts and sports communities at loggerheads.

Douglas Elves, Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

Oilers bid puts new arena back in play
Daryl Katz's pledge of $100M renews downtown redevelopment debate

Darcy Henton, With files from Jason Markusoff, The Edmonton
The Edmonton Journal

Saturday, December 15, 2007

No one builds stand-alone arenas like Rexall Place anymore, an expert says -- instead, tehy combine them with other elements such as hotels and other businesses that contribute to urban revitalization.
CREDIT: The Journal, file
No one builds stand-alone arenas like Rexall Place anymore, an expert says -- instead, tehy combine them with other elements such as hotels and other businesses that contribute to urban revitalization.

EDMONTON - Provincial and civic leaders are giving the idea of investing in a new arena for the Edmonton Oilers the cold shoulder, but an American sports-facility expert says they could be turning their backs on a great opportunity to redevelop the province's capital city.

Mark Rosentraub, an authority on sports economics and urban planning, says cities around North America are using sports facilities to anchor major redevelopments worth billions of dollars.

They enlist public dollars, but they also provide a financial return that's often equal to the investment, if not greater, he said.

"What you try to design are ways to make sure that if public money is involved, there's a cash flow back to the public sector," Rosentraub said from Cleveland. "I would hope that Edmonton sees that sort of wisdom.

"You have a great opportunity now. Make sure you get it the way you want it."

Reports this week that Edmonton billionaire Daryl Katz -- pronounced CATES -- is seeking to buy the Oilers and invest $100 million in a new arena has renewed the debate in the city, but elected officials reject the idea of using tax dollars for such a project.

Mayor Stephen Mandel has been a booster of a downtown arena on the railway lands north of 104th Avenue and has appointed a committee to investigate the concept, but he doesn't see the city putting up any cash.

"As I've said hundreds and hundreds of times before, we just can't afford to take our municipal tax dollars and put it into an arena," Mandel said Friday.

"But there are ways to do it, and I think that's why we got together this committee. They're the creative business people and many finance guys and gals, and they'll come up with a solution."

Premier Ed Stelmach doesn't see a financial role for the province.

"The hockey arena has nothing to do with the infrastructure that's necessary to help grow the value-added in the area," Stelmach said.

"It's a private-sector arrangement ... that's a private matter with the shareholders of the Edmonton Oilers (and) has nothing to do with the government of Alberta."

Rosentraub, who teaches urban planning at Cleveland State University and has been involved in several major sports ventures, said the cost of a proposed new stand-alone NHL arena for the Edmonton Oilers could start at about $400 million, but no one is building stand-alone arenas anymore.

"Everybody recognizes they don't accomplish a heck of a lot," he said. "To build a stand-alone arena, you're wasting your money and your time. I would rather go play with my grandkids."

The author of two books on sports economics, including one called Major League Losers, has been invited to address a University of Alberta and Edmonton Chamber of Commerce-sponsored forum on sports facilities at the Chateau Lacombe on Feb. 12.

He says there are numerous examples around North America of hugely successful sports developments worth more than $3 billion. All of them are combined with other private and public projects such as condos, hotels, parks and other businesses and facilities that generate revenue and pay a return.

A $1.4-billion basketball stadium in Brooklyn is expected to create 6,500 residential units over the next decade. He says there are also successful projects in Columbus, Kansas City, San Diego and Los Angeles.

Dan Mason, who teaches physical education and recreation at the U of A, says he understands the reluctance of elected officials to put tax money into sports business ventures.

"If the public is going to be involved in any way financially, there has to be a benefit over and above having a new state-of-the-art hockey arena," he said.

He says he organized the seminar to spearhead informed debate.

"The arena debate seems to be articulated as money for millionaire hockey players and owners versus filling potholes," he said.

"The arguments that are being made for and against an arena are far too simplified when you think about what can be done and what has been done elsewhere."

Members of the committee investigating the project are expected to report to Mandel early next year. They say it's too early to comment on the scale and cost of a new arena or how it would be funded, but they've been impressed with what they've seen elsewhere.

Chamber of Commerce chairman Greg Christenson said the governing principle for the project should be a requirement that it spur commercial and economic activity.

"It's not a big secret that many cities have used that type of anchor to revitalize and redevelop," he said. "I think it can have an economic spinoff aside from the arena itself as an operating entity."

Committee member Pat Mackenzie, a former city councillor, said she has been working with 15 to 20 community representatives -- from the Downtown Business Association to the Boyle Street Co-op -- to plan how a new arena could impact the area.

She says they looked at issues like housing and zoning.

"We talked about respecting the diverse community which would include the diverse ethnic groups and the diverse economic groups," she said.

"We had really good buy-in from those diverse groups. If any of those groups weren't onside, it would be difficult."

dhenton@thejournal.canwest.com
© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[Coldrsx]

Can the team owner stay offstage in a hockey-mad town?
Observers say low-profile billionare Daryl Katz would have to adopt a more public role

Keith Gerein
The Edmonton Journal

Saturday, December 15, 2007

Daryl Katz is pictured at the 2003 announcement that Edmonton's hockey arena would be named Rexall place. It's one of the few photos of the local billionaire who prefers to stay out of the public eye.
CREDIT: Bruce Edwards, The Journal, file
Daryl Katz is pictured at the 2003 announcement that Edmonton's hockey arena would be named Rexall place. It's one of the few photos of the local billionaire who prefers to stay out of the public eye.

EDMONTON - Talk to anyone who knows Daryl Katz, and a common theme quickly emerges.

The drugstore magnate and would-be owner of the Edmonton Oilers doesn't much crave the spotlight.

"A private person," describes PCL helmsman Ross Grieve. "An unassuming guy," says lawyer Doug Goss. "On the quiet side," suggests clothier Sam Abouhassan.

Building a business empire from behind the scenes is one thing, but can Katz use the same low-profile approach as head of the city's most beloved sports franchise?

When fans are irate about the free-agent budget, irked by the performance of the general manager or disgusted by a new uniform design, can the billionaire really stay offstage as he prefers?

"Probably not," says Mike Vogel, a New York journalist who occasionally talks to Katz for industry magazine Chain Drug Review.

"Of course, that doesn't mean he's going to become a Donald Trump type. He can do it without going from one extreme to the other. But I think he'll be a little more public. He'll have to be."

Katz, 46, appears to have the inside track on buying the National Hockey League team he has cheered on since the club's heyday in the 1980s. His $190-million offer -- accompanied by a pledge to contribute $100 million toward a new downtown arena -- earned the support Thursday of Cal Nichols, the man who heads the current ownership group.

While Vogel believes Katz will be forced to adopt a higher profile if his bid is successful, others suggest he isn't likely to change his behaviour.

Just as he runs his drugstore business, Katz may decide to rely on trusted employees and colleagues to handle the public side of the Oilers' operations, they say.

"Owning a hockey team isn't any different," says Goss, who heads the Oilers Community Foundation. "He's very selective of the team he puts together to support him management wise, and he'll continue to do that. I don't see him making any dramatic changes to how the team is run."

"Just because he is the owner doesn't mean he has to be the face of the Oilers," agrees Grieve. "Other owners of major sporting franchises can very successfully keep themselves away from the day to day things."

Katz Group Inc., is believed to operate Canada's largest drugstore network with 1,800-locations that operate under a variety of retail banners -- including Pharma Plus, Rexall, Medicine Shoppe, Guardian, I.D.A. and Herbies/Payless. Katz's personal wealth is estimated at close to $2 billion.

Vogel suggests owning the Oilers would give Katz's company a big platform to further promote its products and services.

Shortly after Katz secured the naming rights for Toronto's new national tennis centre in 2003, the firm sponsored a wellness day at the facility by handing out Rexall sunscreen and energy bars while providing free skin cancer screenings, nutritional advice and body-fat analysis.

But hockey fans worried that Katz sees the Oilers as a business venture or a personal toybox should relax, Goss said. Attending Ross Sheppard High School and then University of Alberta law school with Katz gave Goss the chance to see his friend's love of the city and its hockey team.

"The most important thing to know about Daryl is he's the consummate Edmontonian. Like a lot of us, he grew up in the heyday in the '80s when it was hard not to be a hockey fan," said Goss, adding that Katz has replica banners of the team's Stanley Cup championships hanging in his house.

"A big part of this (bid) for Daryl is taking Edmonton to the next level. Having a new building that's absolutely world-class in the heart of our city is fundamental to how he looks at this."

Though it's clear Katz travels in high-profile circles -- a list of contacts provided by his communications firm included the names Wayne Gretzky and Mark Messier -- it's also obvious he has taken pains to ensure his personal life stays private.

Friends describe him as a dedicated family man who enjoys spending quiet time with his wife and twin children in the $20-million, 25,000-square-foot home recently constructed on the west bank of the North Saskatchewan River.

"He once told me, 'I want to be able to take my kids down to the park and feed the ducks without being recognized,' " Abouhassan says. "That's really important to him."

Katz prefers to dress casually rather than wear expensive suits. Smart, energetic, creative and polite, he is also known to be an avid reader and occasionally enjoys a round of golf.

"My first impression of him was that he looked a bit like a young Richard Lewis," Vogel says with a laugh. "But he just struck me as regular guy you might be friends with. He doesn't look the corporate stereotype and doesn't act the corporate stereotype, which I think is a plus."

In his financial dealings, Katz relies on a strategy of buying assets at fire-sale prices and then making them profitable, often by reducing management costs. It's a plan that has allowed him to build his business from a two-store operation in 1992 -- Katz was dabbling in the frozen-yogurt market when he and father Barry bought the Canadian franchise rights to the Medicine Shoppe -- to an empire that now has around $7 billion in annual sales.

Vogel believes Katz's quiet approach has often left him underappreciated, a characteristic that helped him sneak up on competitors but also made it difficult to gain respect from business leaders. "Of course, it would be hard to underestimate him now," Vogel says.

Adds Grieve: "He's a strategist. He loves the deal, but he's not a gunslinger. Everything he does is very well-thought-out and that's why he's been successful."

Then there is Katz's charitable side.

Abouhassan raves about the support he gives to an annual golf tournament that raises money for the Stollery Children's Hospital. Earlier this year, Katz wrote a cheque to ensure the Cash is King lottery set up to help an inner city school at least broke even. And a few years ago, he donated $7 million to the U of A's Centre for Pharmacy and Health Research.

"He thinks outside the box and that bodes extremely well for all the things he can bring to the table as owner of the club," Goss says.

"I'm excited, because I want to see how Daryl's going to use this to promote the city. He has a great vision for the city and wants to make sure he does everything he can to make it a more special place for his kids and his kids' kids."

kgerein@thejournal.canwest.com

THE DARYL KATZ FILE

Day job: Chairman of Katz Group, which Katz founded in 1996.

Holdings: Katz Group is the seventh-largest drugstore retailer in North America, posting annual sales of roughly $6 billion from 1,800 outlets. Katz Group owns seven chains in Canada and two in the U.S. Holdings include Rexall, Guardian IDA, Medicine Shoppe and Pharma Plus. That qualifies the privately held drugstore empire as a larger business enterprise than Toronto-based Canadian Tire and Vancouver's Jim Pattison Group.

Why drugstores? Katz is the son of city pharmacist Barry Katz. His current empire started in 1992, when father and son opened their first two stores after buying the Canadian franchise rights to the Medicine Shoppe.

How his empire grew: "I was always kind of deal-driven and attracted to the transaction," Katz said. "And my background is legal and finance, so one transaction kind of led to the next."

How rich is he? Katz is Edmonton's richest person, with a personal fortune estimated at $1.9 billion. Still, his ranking among world billionaires slipped last year from number 486 to number 538 on Forbes magazine's annual listing of the world's wealthiest people.

Where does he live? In a 25,000-square-foot mansion for Katz on the North Saskatchewan River, facing Hawrelak Park. The champagne-titanium-clad home, with two swimming pools and 11 bathrooms, is valued at $20 million.

Sports interests: A tennis buff, Katz cut a deal with Tennis Canada to put the Rexall name on Toronto's national tennis centre in 2003, the same year he bought the naming rights for Edmonton's arena. He has also sponsored competitive curling events.

Education: Graduated University of Alberta law school in the early 1980s.

Giving back: Last year Katz donated $7 million to the U of A faculty of pharmacy. The grant was matched by the provincial government, making it the biggest one-time gift to any Canadian pharmacy school.

Jim Farrell, Journal staff writer
© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[SHOFEAR]

People need to read this!!!

Oilers bid puts new arena back in play
Daryl Katz's pledge of $100M renews downtown redevelopment debate

Darcy Henton, With files from Jason Markusoff, The Edmonton
The Edmonton Journal

Saturday, December 15, 2007

No one builds stand-alone arenas like Rexall Place anymore, an expert says -- instead, tehy combine them with other elements such as hotels and other businesses that contribute to urban revitalization.
CREDIT: The Journal, file
No one builds stand-alone arenas like Rexall Place anymore, an expert says -- instead, tehy combine them with other elements such as hotels and other businesses that contribute to urban revitalization.

EDMONTON - Provincial and civic leaders are giving the idea of investing in a new arena for the Edmonton Oilers the cold shoulder, but an American sports-facility expert says they could be turning their backs on a great opportunity to redevelop the province's capital city.

Mark Rosentraub, an authority on sports economics and urban planning, says cities around North America are using sports facilities to anchor major redevelopments worth billions of dollars.

They enlist public dollars, but they also provide a financial return that's often equal to the investment, if not greater, he said.

"What you try to design are ways to make sure that if public money is involved, there's a cash flow back to the public sector," Rosentraub said from Cleveland. "I would hope that Edmonton sees that sort of wisdom.

"You have a great opportunity now. Make sure you get it the way you want it."

Reports this week that Edmonton billionaire Daryl Katz -- pronounced CATES -- is seeking to buy the Oilers and invest $100 million in a new arena has renewed the debate in the city, but elected officials reject the idea of using tax dollars for such a project.

Mayor Stephen Mandel has been a booster of a downtown arena on the railway lands north of 104th Avenue and has appointed a committee to investigate the concept, but he doesn't see the city putting up any cash.

"As I've said hundreds and hundreds of times before, we just can't afford to take our municipal tax dollars and put it into an arena," Mandel said Friday.

"But there are ways to do it, and I think that's why we got together this committee. They're the creative business people and many finance guys and gals, and they'll come up with a solution."

Premier Ed Stelmach doesn't see a financial role for the province.

"The hockey arena has nothing to do with the infrastructure that's necessary to help grow the value-added in the area," Stelmach said.

"It's a private-sector arrangement ... that's a private matter with the shareholders of the Edmonton Oilers (and) has nothing to do with the government of Alberta."

Rosentraub, who teaches urban planning at Cleveland State University and has been involved in several major sports ventures, said the cost of a proposed new stand-alone NHL arena for the Edmonton Oilers could start at about $400 million, but no one is building stand-alone arenas anymore.

"Everybody recognizes they don't accomplish a heck of a lot," he said. "To build a stand-alone arena, you're wasting your money and your time. I would rather go play with my grandkids."

The author of two books on sports economics, including one called Major League Losers, has been invited to address a University of Alberta and Edmonton Chamber of Commerce-sponsored forum on sports facilities at the Chateau Lacombe on Feb. 12.

He says there are numerous examples around North America of hugely successful sports developments worth more than $3 billion. All of them are combined with other private and public projects such as condos, hotels, parks and other businesses and facilities that generate revenue and pay a return.

A $1.4-billion basketball stadium in Brooklyn is expected to create 6,500 residential units over the next decade. He says there are also successful projects in Columbus, Kansas City, San Diego and Los Angeles.

Dan Mason, who teaches physical education and recreation at the U of A, says he understands the reluctance of elected officials to put tax money into sports business ventures.

"If the public is going to be involved in any way financially, there has to be a benefit over and above having a new state-of-the-art hockey arena," he said.

He says he organized the seminar to spearhead informed debate.

"The arena debate seems to be articulated as money for millionaire hockey players and owners versus filling potholes," he said.

"The arguments that are being made for and against an arena are far too simplified when you think about what can be done and what has been done elsewhere."

Members of the committee investigating the project are expected to report to Mandel early next year. They say it's too early to comment on the scale and cost of a new arena or how it would be funded, but they've been impressed with what they've seen elsewhere.

Chamber of Commerce chairman Greg Christenson said the governing principle for the project should be a requirement that it spur commercial and economic activity.

"It's not a big secret that many cities have used that type of anchor to revitalize and redevelop," he said. "I think it can have an economic spinoff aside from the arena itself as an operating entity."

Committee member Pat Mackenzie, a former city councillor, said she has been working with 15 to 20 community representatives -- from the Downtown Business Association to the Boyle Street Co-op -- to plan how a new arena could impact the area.

She says they looked at issues like housing and zoning.

"We talked about respecting the diverse community which would include the diverse ethnic groups and the diverse economic groups," she said.

"We had really good buy-in from those diverse groups. If any of those groups weren't onside, it would be difficult."

dhenton@thejournal.canwest.com
© The Edmonton Journal 2007

[CMD UW]

well i guess im going to be writing a reply..ARGH!

-----------------------------------------------------

Downtown arena has too much downside
The Edmonton Journal
Published: 2:32 am

Re: "Downtown arena closer to reality: Mandel welcomes Katz offer to add $100M to pot," The Journal, Dec. 14.

As the pressure for a downtown arena increases, I hope city council will have the courage to resist.

The tidal wave of parking demand created by an arena would swamp the parking facilities that have slowly grown to accommodate the downtown cultural complex: the library, the Citadel, the Winspear and the art gallery -- not to mention shopping and restaurant facilities.
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The proximity of an LRT station will have no more effect on parking demand than it has for the current arena in the northeast.

Thousands will continue to travel by car to hockey games.

If patrons of the downtown arts and shopping facilities cannot park because hockey fans have filled the parkades, they will stay home. Boards of the arts facilities will then have to choose between letting their organizations die or moving to new locations -- a consequence which will add millions of dollars to the ultimate cost of building a downtown arena.

There is no need to set the arts and sports communities at loggerheads.

Douglas Elves, Edmonton


© The Edmonton Journal 2007
You'll see these letters up until the day the new arena opens its door. There are people who support it and people who will not support it. It's nothing to lose sleep over. Just like Windspear, City Hall, south LRT, International Airport redevelopment, etc, etc, etc.

[rapid_business]

@SHOTIME - it's in the Journal today, so I assume it will be read.

[Coldrsx]

You'll see these letters up until the day the new arena opens its door. There are people who support it and people who will not support it. It's nothing to lose sleep over. Just like Windspear, City Hall, south LRT, International Airport redevelopment, etc, etc, etc.

oh...we all know that...but it does deserve a response.

[Coldrsx]

just submitted my letter to the editor:

Some might say that a new arena has "too much downside" (douglas elves dec 15), but i for one see far more of an upside.

This is not just about a new palace for the oilers...but perhaps something far more important to this city and its people, an overt symbol that our downtown is back. It is a recognition of civic pride for the downtown and our city as a whole.

Downtowns are a city's heart, their soul, there epicentre. Downtowns are suppose to be where people work, live, play, meet, explore. Downtowns are where the arts should be, where commerce should be, where public venues should be.

We could look at this simply as a new rink, or perhaps it is time we stand up and support a new mixed use venue for the entire city to enjoy and more importantly to be proud of.

[Coldrsx]

some examples of "urban arenas":

Louisville

http://www.arenadigest.com/images/new_louisville.jpg

Columbus

http://www.arenadigest.com/visits/images/nationwide_arena.jpg

Kansas City:

http://www.kcmo.org/mayor/arena-high.jpg

Orlando:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2006-09/25359063.jpg

Kansas:

http://www.visitkc.com/mediaroom/ImageLibrary/Sprint_Center_LR.jpg


Hartford:

http://www.cceda.state.ct.us/civiccenter/images/Originals/Trumbull_Elev_0303.jpg

Houston:

http://www.ulrichengineers.com/Arena1.jpg

wichita:

http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/arena/arena_designs/ViewOutside.jpg

oh and i came across this....ACC Edmonton ahhaha

http://media.canada.com/88a71aa9-0766-4ee3-befb-15e6b6fe7968/97213-31914.jpg

[Shodan]

December 15, 2007

Lifeline for downtown
New arena in city core could revitalize area, says expert

By BROOKES MERRITT, SUN MEDIA


Go big or go home - that's the only way Edmonton can save its dismal downtown, says an American expert on new pro sports arenas.

"You don't just build a new stand-alone rink. That's a loser. You develop an entire new downtown area in which the rink anchors other amenities like public recreation centres, schools, shopping, transit and affordable housing," Mark Rosentraub told Sun Media yesterday.

Rosentraub, a Cleveland State University professor and author of Major League Losers: The Real Cost of Sports and Who's Paying for It, is coming to Edmonton in February to tell city officials the best way to move the Oilers into a new downtown rink.

He and some notable arena developers from major U.S. markets will speak at a conference, hosted by the University of Alberta and the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce, aimed at marrying sports entertainment facilities and urban redevelopment.

'TRANSFORM YOUR CITY'

"If it's done right, you can completely transform your city," said Rosentraub, the man behind mega-arena developments in places like San Diego, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Columbus, Ohio, Los Angeles and New York.

In each of those cities, a new pro sports arena was built as part of a broader development project.

The concept is similar to the Canadian Smart Centres, box-store shopping destinations anchored by Wal-Mart stores.

The key to success, Rosentraub said, is to use tax dollars to develop the infrastructure - not to pay for a new rink.

"The biggest return in investment is to have an arena anchor a huge swath of other real-estate development.

"The private money will come. Save your tax dollars for infrastructure, new housing, schools and daycares in the area."

Those are the strategies Rosentraub used in Los Angeles in the late 1990s while consulting on the construction of the Staples Centre, home to the NHL's Kings and NBA Lakers.

"Downtown L.A. was a warzone when we started. But by the time we were finished, we'd completely transformed it.

"It's now a thriving commercial destination where people can spend an entire day or night - whether they go to a game or not."

Edmonton needn't look any further than the Atlantic Yards in Brooklyn, N.Y., to find inspiration for a new downtown rink project, he said.

A new arena in the New York suburb will become the home of the NBA's New Jersey Nets and surrounding developments will include over 6,000 apartment units - half of which will be subsidized and earmarked for low-income tenants.

An elementary school, daycare and public recreation facility are also proposed for the project.

'REAL-ESTATE ANCHOR'

"There's no debate," Rosentraub said.

"Pro sports arenas benefit the team, their city and its citizens most when they are built like a shopping mall flagship store - as a real-estate anchor that generates massive economic growth through new nearby developments."

University of Alberta professor Dan Mason, an acquaintance of Rosentraub, has been studying how a new arena could revitalize Edmonton's ailing downtown for several years and helped organize the upcoming conference.

He said high traffic is the hallmark of every successful downtown area in big cities - something Edmonton lacks.

"Pairing a new arena with attractive adjacent developments could attract three times the amount of people that go to a single sports game," he said.

"That's a lot of repeat business, which is the fundamental building block of a vibrant downtown."

[Coldrsx]

great article except for:

"that's the only way Edmonton can save its dismal downtown, says an American expert on new pro sports arenas."

dismal?????? while no where near perfect, it is actually quite functional and works well generally. We have come a long way and have a long way to go...but we really need to start focusing on the positives a bit more.

[Shodan]

Kansas:

http://www.visitkc.com/mediaroom/ImageLibrary/Sprint_Center_LR.jpg


Please let it be something like this one!!! :tup:

[0773|=\]

Read all the articles in the Journal this morning.

I can't believe some of the people writing letters are still bringing up the whole parking issue. Do they not realize that on a given workday, downtown Edmonton handles considerably more vehicles than would ever drive there for an Oilers game? Haven't these people thought about how Commonwealth Stadium seems to do just fine despite the fact that there is very little public parking around the stadium, and events there attract close to double the amount of people that an arena would draw?

Maybe civic leaders supporting this arena could start winning more public support by talking about what changes ETS might make, for instance, to expand their park-and-ride service on game nights.

Downtown all the way. I've been to enough arenas in North American cities to see the merit in doing this. Most Edmontonians just don't know what they're missing out on right now.

[0773|=\]

..."This is all about things connecting. The arena was never meant to be an isolated thing.

"It's not just a sheet of ice but it's a community arena complex."


© The Edmonton Journal 2007


I'm glad this point is getting into the papers! A stand-alone arena downtown wouldn't help downtown, but it's the surrounding developments that could make the project a catalyst for so many positive things in our core, not the least of which would be some night-life.

The fact that the EPCOR tower includes pedestrian friendly shops/restaurants on the main floor shows that a bigger project scope is being planned for.

[Jasper and one o nin]

I really hope a new arena is not a pyramid design. I say do something really creative and original.

[Coldrsx]

^bingo...we dont need to "play off a design we already use"...we need to depart from the traditional and do something interesting, unique, clean.

I honestly would love to take a classic rink like MLG or MSG and do a modern interpretation of it with much better street level interaction of course.

classic designs done modern can look amazing and age very well.

[Hardhatdan]

^bingo...we dont need to "play off a design we already use"...we need to depart from the traditional and do something interesting, unique, clean.

I honestly would love to take a classic rink like MLG or MSG and do a modern interpretation of it with much better street level interaction of course.

classic designs done modern can look amazing and age very well.
Put it this way, you have City Hall with Iconic Pyramids, but now you are going to have the Art Gallery with its unique and iconic shape, so having the arena follow City Hall really makes no sense.
I would love to see the arena go to a design competition...

If I could dream, it would be City Hall, the new AGA, the new Hockey Arena as a unique piece of architecture and a new Main Library as again something unique.

What an area of Downtown that would be...

[noodlenoodle]

I would love to see the arena go to a design competition...

If I could dream, it would be City Hall, the new AGA, the new Hockey Arena as a unique piece of architecture and a new Main Library as again something unique.

What an area of Downtown that would be...

Preach on! Heck, a little spit and polish on the Law Courts wouldn't be amiss either.

Would you put the new main library where Milner is? I'd love to see something done with Milner and Molson Square behind it.

[Hardhatdan]

Preach on! Heck, a little spit and polish on the Law Courts wouldn't be amiss either.

Would you put the new main library where Milner is? I'd love to see something done with Milner and Molson Square behind it.
My understanding is that the Law Courts are running out of space...the question is, will we see an expansion or a new building akin to the new Law building in Calgary. While not on the next couple years radar, 5 years from now it is a possibility.

That combined with the closing and hopeful demolition of the current Remand center, well who knows whats possible for that area.

Would I put the new Library where the current one is...I don't really see and ability to move it anywhere else and concentrate it with the rest of the Civic monuments. What I would prefer is if it was moved backwards over the Molson square and some private retail was allowed along what could become a very cool eastward extension of Rice Howard Way all the way to the Citadel. That Narrow street in-between the Southside of the Molson Square and The Westin could become a neat little area...preferably pedestrian only and the square space lost could be moved to the Northside of the building as a further extension of Churchill Square. My idea...another public pool area with fountains.

[Beltliner]

Oh, you have got to be kidding me (http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=c3a97d3a-cb29-412d-a57e-91ee8ec646f7&k=56156):

Build arena along Anthony Henday Drive: expert

Susan Ruttan
edmontonjournal.com

Saturday, December 15, 2007

EDMONTON - Coun. Bryan Anderson has his own solution to the downtown arena issue - forget downtown and build the arena along Anthony Henday Drive.

"I would think that adjacent to Anthony Henday in southeast Edmonton would be a phenomenal place for an arena," said Anderson in an interview. A former high school basketball coach, he's the sports and recreational expert on council [My emphasis! Honest!].

Building a new arena to replace Rexall Place in The Meadows area east of Mill Woods would mean easy road access on the Henday ring road, lots of parking, and plenty of land to build the arena, said Anderson.

The ring road is half-completed and will be 90-per-cent done when the north leg is finished, probably by 2011.

"There are all kinds of people who are going to have reasons to oppose a downtown arena, but there's no reason to oppose something that has tons of land, etc.," Anderson said.

He stresses this is his personal opinion, but said he'll raise it when council discusses the report being done for Mayor Stephen Mandel on the viability of a new arena for the Edmonton Oilers and concerts.

His idea was dismissed Friday by Coun. Dave Thiele, who represents the southeast.

"It doesn't make any sense unless it's a privately funded facility to begin with, with towers and a hotel maybe," said Thiele. "That isn't going to happen anywhere in Mill Woods or the Meadows. There's no spot there, either."

Darryl Katz, the local businessman currently bidding to buy the hockey team, has proposed putting $100 million toward a new building.

Most talk about a new arena to date has been about putting it on the 103A Avenue site near City Hall that is currently the Canada Post building. Mayor Mandel and other fans of a downtown arena see it as a way to revitalize the downtown.

Lyle Best, chairman of the mayor's arena committee, said this fall that while it's hard to justify a new arena economically just as a venue for hockey and concerts, it can be justified as a way to help the downtown.

The committee's report is expected to be made public early in the new year, and is likely to consider a couple of sites, including the current Rexall site. A poll of Edmontonians in June found 68 per cent favoured keeping the Oilers at Rexall Place.

Anderson said Mill Woods, the heaviest transit-using part of the city, was originally supposed to get the first light-rail transit line.

"If there was an arena out there, that would be another reason to encourage LRT to southeast Edmonton," he said.

The city is already planning to make Ellerslie Road a six-lane road into the southeast, which will help traffic flow in the area, he added. [Think we can leave the cleanup of this PR disaster to W.P. Kinsella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoeless_Joe_%28novel%29), shurely? --Ed.]

[Ponza]

Public opion on this one won't mean anything with Katz putting up a 100m. He want's a downtown building so it's pretty much end of story. If the try to move it out to the suburbs they will lose his 100m.

Thankfully we have someone like him in charge of this mission so it won't get messed up with small town thinking.

[noodlenoodle]

My thoughts exactly. And if it came down to more than $100m, he'd do it as well. This is a guy who bails out failing lotteries. He generally gets what he wants.

[Hardhatdan]

Bryan Anderson, what are you smoking?

[SHOFEAR]

My submission

I was not surprised to read opinions against locating the new arena downtown (Saturday Dec 15), but I am very disappointed that people are basing their opinions on misconceptions and nonsense like availability of parking and traffic congestion.

Parking is plentiful near the rumored post office site location within nearby parkades. While they may not be directly across the street, it is no worse than walking from the midpoint of the current Northlands parking lot to Rexall. Instead of the current funnel one has to deal with while leaving Northlands, having the parking spread out across numerous parkades, the LRT expansion and people having the ability to walk to a nearby restaurant or bar to finish off the night, will lessen the post event traffic impact.

Edmonton has the opportunity to build something that we can be proud of. Let’s do it right. Build it in a spot where it will create a destination, where people will want to work, live and play, not along some freeway.

[rapid_business]

Ahhh Ruttan.... expert? Perhaps the expert they should consult is a city planning expert? not a guy who's coached a high school sports team... what a joke.

[0773|=\]

I agree. I have some friends in Ottawa who are still scratching their heads over the location of Scotiabank Place out there. A suburban arena just doesn't work. It takes twice as long for half the city to drive to it, and it's usually located next to a freeway, which ALL the traffic will funnel onto. Isn't that one of the complaints about Rexall's location right now? All the traffic empties onto the Yellowhead and Gretzky Drive, and it's just a nightmare...

[Spencer]

:/sarcasm: But, I live in St. Albert, the arena should be on the AHD and St. Albert trail. It would be a lot easier for everyone in the city to get there. :/sarcasm

I fail to understand these people's reasoning.:hell: If the arena were to be placed anywhere on the AHD it is a least twice as far for half the city than if it were to be placed downtown. For example, from Castledowns to the deep south east would be probably a 30 min drive and around 35 kms. From the same location to downtown around 15 mins and a 15 km drive. Apres rush hour you can get downtown from anywhere in the City (St. Albert, Sherwood Park etc included) in under 25 mins and a max 15 - 20 Km drive.

[leendert]

I agree. I have some friends in Ottawa who are still scratching their heads over the location of Scotiabank Place out there. A suburban arena just doesn't work. It takes twice as long for half the city to drive to it, and it's usually located next to a freeway, which ALL the traffic will funnel onto. Isn't that one of the complaints about Rexall's location right now? All the traffic empties onto the Yellowhead and Gretzky Drive, and it's just a nightmare...
I was out in Ottawa two weeks ago, and traffic on the highway around Scotiabank Place (Highway 417) around game time is terrible (terribly congested). What a stupid place to put an arena. Let's not repeat the same mistake:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/749895449_546b77b18d.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/harmonizetheworld/749895449/)

[Jordan2]

If it wasn't for Mandel and Katz i wouldn't be suprised if the arena ended up being built in Leduc.

:sly:

[Coldrsx]

This city needs to grow up and it starts with council. Mandel and Katz wont let it go to the burbs...but we need to communicate to council why downtown makes the best sense.

i suggest we start letting our councilors know what we think

[Edmonchuck]

If it wasn't for Mandel and Katz i wouldn't be suprised if the arena ended up being built in Leduc.

:sly:

http://www.northlandsandthecityuwontletthathappen.com

[CMD UW]

This city needs to grow up and it starts with council. Mandel and Katz wont let it go to the burbs...but we need to communicate to council why downtown makes the best sense.

i suggest we start letting our councilors know what we thinkYou may communicate all you want, however, there will be some that just will simply disagree for whatever reasons (see Henderson and non-support for Glenora et al.). Fact is that the majority of councillors agree that a new arena is best located downtown, their primary concern is using taxpayers dollars towards it.

[Coldrsx]

You may communicate all you want, however, there will be some that just will simply disagree for whatever reasons (see Henderson and non-support for Glenora et al.). Fact is that the majority of councillors agree that a new arena is best located downtown, their primary concern is using taxpayers dollars towards it.

communication is the 1st step towards enlightenment...

[JAH]

If an arena gets built in Millwoods, K Lowe would have to go and sign George Laraque back to protect the players walking to their cars after the game :)

[Jasper and one o nin]

If an arena gets built in Millwoods, K Lowe would have to go and sign George Laraque back to protect the players walking to their cars after the game :)
Are you kidding, G. Laraque would be one of the NIMBY residents

[rapid_business]

And they'd all be parked underground in their own secure area connected to the arena.

[JAH]

Limited time offer.. If you purchase your Millwoods Oiler season tickets today, we will throw in a free custom fit bullet proof vest!

Your Millwoods Oilers... where we give SHOOTOUT.. a new meaning

[SHOFEAR]

Your Millwoods Oilers... where we give SHOOTOUT.. a new meaning


hahahahahah... nice!

[JAH]

....If you fear our Shootouts now, JUST YOU WAIT!

man i could go on

[IKAN104]

please don't.

[JAH]

sorry if i upset any millwoods pple here. Im only kiddin around. Ive lived in millwoods over 17 yrs and don't find it bad at all :)

Only pokin fun cuz the idea of an arena here is horrible imo

[Coldrsx]

awesome jah...awesome.

[CMD UW]

communication is the 1st step towards enlightenment...Cold, you can only communicate so much. You will not, and I repeat, will not develop 100% concensus no matter how good of a project.

[Coldrsx]

^it isnt about 100% consensus, it is about giving people more information to make more of an informed decision. We both/all know that you cannot get everyone on board the love boat, but you can give them reasons why they should come aboard.

[0773|=\]

^it isnt about 100% consensus, it is about giving people more information to make more of an informed decision. We both/all know that you cannot get everyone on board the love boat, but you can give them reasons why they should come aboard.

Problem is they'd likely think you're the one that needs convincing...

...let me add that I agree with your stance

[Coldrsx]

^i actually wish i had the opportunity to sit and chat with people who would rather see it somewhere other than the downtown and hear them out. I like learning about why people think certain ways. I never joined debate club but wish i had in retrospect.

[SHOFEAR]

I never joined debate club but wish i had in retrospect.


You couldn't fit it in your schedule between chess and yearbook clubs?

[0773|=\]

^i actually wish i had the opportunity to sit and chat with people who would rather see it somewhere other than the downtown and hear them out. I like learning about why people think certain ways. I never joined debate club but wish i had in retrospect.

Yeah, I hear you.

On this particular issue, I think the reason other sites are being sought out has to do with our city's auto dependency when it comes to getting around town. There's a popular notion that it's a pain to drive downtown, and an even bigger pain to find parking. People are looking for the places that are easier to get to by car. A small-town mentality fails to recognize that when traffic starts to be a problem, transit has to play a bigger role in the solution. But hey, I'm kind of preaching to the choir here... maybe you should fire that letter off!

[Coldrsx]

ironically many people love downtowns but in Edmonton they dont love their own.

in vancouver it is "cool/hip" to be downtown, but in Edmonton those same people think its bunk