[Shodan]

Oilers have mayor onside for $1B downtown complex
End in sight for 32-year-old arena Rexall Place

Gordon Kent
The Edmonton Journal

Friday, December 22, 2006

EDMONTON - Mayor Stephen Mandel says he would support a proposal to build a new hockey arena in downtown Edmonton that could be part of a $1-billion development.

A scheme has been floated for several months to move the Oilers to a state-of-the-art arena and entertainment complex in the heart of the city, and Mandel agreed Thursday that the days of Rexall Place as Edmonton's main hockey venue may be numbered.

"We think Northlands is looking at their building to see if it can be renovated or changed. If it can't be, (and) my guess is it would be difficult, then we need to start looking at a new stadium for Edmonton," he said in a year-end interview.

"That particular one is old. If we do (build a new structure), we need to be creative and not burden the taxpayers ... do something that will be sustained in the long term, but really make a statement about what we can do.''

An arena could cost $300 million-$400 million, with the whole project carrying a possible price tag of $1 billion if a hotel, office buildings and other facilities are included, Mandel said.

He didn't indicate whether any city money would be spent on such a scheme, but sees "great merit" in suggestions to construct it on the site of the downtown post office and the long-vacant land north of the CN Tower.

"We think you can design it in such a way to incorporate that as part of downtown. You link downtown, North Edge (residential development north of 105th Avenue), and Downtown East through a stadium that's going to be used a lot."

While Rexall Place, which opened in 1974, is one of the smallest arenas in the NHL, the Oilers have about seven years left on their lease with Northlands.

Canada Post still uses the downtown property for administrative offices and customer mail services, and has said it has no plans to move.

Mandel, who expects the groups involved to make a decision in 2007 on whether the project is feasible, said an arena would be busy with Oilers games, Oil Kings junior games, concerts and other events.

"I think it's exciting and I think the citizens of Edmonton are up for that. I think there's a view today that we can do, whereas in the past there was a feeling that this is Edmonton, we can't do," he said.

"There's a very positive attitude ... it's a great city right now."

© The Edmonton Journal 2006

Copyright © 2006 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.

[big W]

Its a work in progress. The oilers and the city are slowly pushing this to win over public support. THere are several years before construciton should begin to allow the Oilers seamless transition from Rexall and the new barn downtown without having to do a new lease. In 7 years the oil will be downtown.

[Dalreg]

It's good that they are starting the process now for a new arena, you wouldn't want another Pittsburgh situation to happen up here.

One would assume that this new arena would be bigger than current but any numbers floating around?

[Wooster]

I really hope it happens. It seems like the Oilers need a new arena badly. The Old Rexall isn't really up to today's standards. Moving it downtown would be a boon.

Ken King of the Flames is also actively seeking a new arena. It would be nice to have one like in Davos. Have you guys seen that one?

[Coldrsx]

Id bet we see 19,000 for seating and double/triple the number of boxes....apparently they have a waiting list on boxes which is double the number they have now.....

[freeweed]

It's good that they are starting the process now for a new arena, you wouldn't want another Pittsburgh situation to happen up here.


I'm thinking more like Winnipeg.

Still bitter after a decade... :hell:

[Atlguy33]

So exciting to see this being openly talked about by the mayor now! I say, go for it, Edmonton!!

Also.... judging from the article, where it says the entire project could cost 1 billion including office towers and a hotel, it looks as if they are definitely wanting to incorporate into Stationlands, as some have already stated.

[Coldrsx]

^stationlands would be that much more viable with this beside it...a hotel would be much more attractive there and even condos. Think of the Toronto development maple leaf square.

[newflyer]

Funny how similar cities are when they are conceiving a new arena in the early stages.

Back in the early 90's there was a similar mega concept proposed for Winnipeg called the Manitoba Entertainment Centre (MEC). The devil is in the details though. It takes alot of commitment to get a project like that off the ground.

Columbus designed there new arena within a comprehensive arena district, which turned out to be very successful. It can happen, its just not easy.

[CMD UW]

/\ one of the most difficult hurdles is land assembly. Given that the area around Stationlands is owned by a few corporate & crown agencies, facilitating a comprehensive redevelopment plan is that much easier.

[newflyer]

^ not to mention the small matter of 1 billion dollars.

[freeweed]

newflyer:

Edmonton's far less defeatist and anti-progress than Winnipeg was in the 90s.

They'll get something built, even if it's just another arena instead of a massive billion dollar hockey mecca.

[newflyer]

I'm sure they will.. I'm just very aware of how long the process can be. It is very good though that Edmonton is talking about it now... get the plans in place, secure the land and find the funding.

I am not saying Edmonton is defeatist, but 1 billion is a big chunk of change for most cities.

[CMD UW]

/\ let's remember that the billion dollar figure includes the revised costs for Stationlands, which seems like it will be part of this redevelopment program. The arena portion is slated to cost bet'n $300-400 million.

[feepa]

Bryn Griffifths from Team 1260 posted on hfboards on what he was hearing about the new downtown arena:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=324689&page=3



This is what I'd heard the past two months from Oiler and City Hall
sources... now with more and more of this stuff becoming public so I'm slowly
becoming a believer that there's some movement.

-seating capacity at 18,500... that's it.
-triple the luxury boxes... 120.
-underground LRT access via the secret LRT station.
-arena to be part of the condo-office tower-mall complex on the CN Rail site,
with the developer more than likely chipping in to offset the massive cost.
-still some issue with the Post Office site however.
-current lease could be broken early but EIG would have to pay penalty to Northlands (kind of like any mortgage).
-Edmonton's current arena is 12 years older than Calgary's and their new arena pitch is still in the works and wouldn't be considered for any level of government funding for a few years yet until after the new Edmonton one gets a look.
-the Edmonton taxpayer burden would NOT be as much as you think when you consider the % of the cost being paid by the Feds, the Prov, EIG and the private sector. There's a ticket surcharge that may also be used to help offset things. Northlands may also partner up... making that lease issue a non-issue.

Some or all of this may have hit the papers already, but this is what I've been told, so you can compare notes and have some fun with it. Let's see what happens.

[Hardhatdan]

Get the effin Casino to move into the development, that should help to generate capital to get this going. Kill two birds with one stone and hooray no more baccarat and another huge parcel of land that can be redevelopped!

[Coldrsx]

18,500.....why not 18,599?

simpson, smith, gretz:>

[itom 987]

18,500 is too small, prepare for the future and make the new colleseum hold 21,000 seats.

[RicoLance21]

I would like to see the new arena seating to be around 20000, incl. 3x luxury boxes. (maybe another 500 for standing room)

[SHOFEAR]

There is a reason that during arena building boom of the 90's most built for 18000-19000 capacity.....

[fortroad]

^ Can't go too big, just makes the game seem less fun!

[Arriviste]

You guys deserve a new arena more than any other Canadian city. The Colloseum sure has seen some history though. It's like Fenway of the NHL almost. Good on yah for it.

[brento79]

The one thing they have to figure out when designing the building is how to keep the noise. A lot of these new arenas you can't hear the fans like in Rexall...changes the atmosphere...I don't like it.

[newflyer]

:previous:


New arenas are so quite, because it makes for better concert acoustics.

The new MTS centre in Winnipeg contains acoustic paneling which eliminates the echoing effect plagged by many older arenas. Its concert quality is compared to the concert hall, which is very high for a sports venue.

The old Winnipeg arena was one of the loudest arenas in the NHL, second only to the old Chicago arena, due to its concrete walls and large right angled corners within the seating area. Massive echoing!! It made for a great hockey atmosphere, but very bad concert venue.

[MistyMountainHop]

The arena shoulod have removable acoustic paneling. Put it in for concerts, take it out for hockey. You'd get the best of both worlds.

[SSLL]

A downtown arena would be great!

[krazycanuck]

I doubt you will ever see another 20K+ arena built in the NHL. Reason is this, the extra 2,000 seats don't generate a whole lot of extra revenue for the team because the 2,000 seats added to the top of a rink won't fetch a lot more than 20 bucks a pop, that's $40,000 a game (if they're all sold) and maybe $2 million a year tops including preseason and playoffs. Pretty small beans for an NHL club.

Or, if they build it smaller, The Oilers have less supply which lets them up the price on all their tickets and a better experience for fans because they get a more intimate building.

I don't believe any team in this league can also consistantly sell out a 21,000 seat building, aside from probably Montreal and Toronto. Learn from Chicago's mistake...keep the building a reasonable size. Just because the Oilers would sell out 21,000 seats a game for 5 or 6 games a year doesn't make it a good idea to go big.

Even Ken King of the Flames here has said that Ideally capacity on a new building would be down in the 18,000 seat range, from around 19,500 with more club seats and more suites.

[freeweed]

There is a reason that during arena building boom of the 90's most built for 18000-19000 capacity.....

Mostly because nearly all of those were built in American cities, where they in some cases STILL haven't seen a sellout.

You could have 40,000 seat Saddledome and Northlands right now, and they'd still be selling out every damn game. Of course, long term that just isn't the case, as we well remember... :(

[itom 987]

If the existing Colleseum held 21,000 seats there would have been enough space to add the luxury skyboxes instead of building a brand new Colleseum. Having space gives the ability to adjust with the times.

[krazycanuck]

If the existing Colleseum held 21,000 seats there would have been enough space to add the luxury skyboxes instead of building a brand new Colleseum. Having space gives the ability to adjust with the times.


Would you want to go to a hockey game with 13,000 people in the stands of a 21,000 seat arena?

[itom 987]

Would you want to go to a hockey game with 13,000 people in the stands of a 21,000 seat arena?

If the arena is one of the largest in the league, sure. It would beat the hell out of attending a game with 6,100 in the stands of a 10,000 seat arena. Actual attendance from city to city varies. Edmonton hosted the Hockey Classic at the Commonwealth Stadium, 60,000 fans saw it in -30c weather so we can afford to have a new 21,000 seat colleseum.

[SHOFEAR]

Mostly because nearly all of those were built in American cities, where they in some cases STILL haven't seen a sellout.

You could have 40,000 seat Saddledome and Northlands right now, and they'd still be selling out every damn game. Of course, long term that just isn't the case, as we well remember... :(

But like crazycanuck said those revenues don't add up for the team. I'd hate to see what it would cost to build an arena that size and you end up selling those for peanuts, while driving down demand and the price of club seats.

Who cares if the oilers could draw 40 000 a game. As a fan my first priority is seeing a competative team, having an areana that maximizes revenues is a big chunk of that.

This isn't football where you have the event factor...were dealing with a couple games a week.

Look at how some of the new baseball stadiums are being built with significantly less capacity. I think the mets new stadium will hold 15 000 LESS people.

[adam-machiavelli]

No government should spend a cent on this project. Study after study has shown that in the long term, governments spend more on 'mega entertainment complexes' than they earn and they rarely generate enough tax revenues, both directly and indirectly to deserve public support. The project must be 100% privately financed. The government should never ever subsidize elite athletes when we have a real obesity problem amongst the general population in our country.

[SHOFEAR]

No government should spend a cent on this project. Study after study has shown that in the long term, governments spend more on 'mega entertainment complexes' than they earn and they rarely generate enough tax revenues, both directly and indirectly to deserve public support. The project must be 100% privately financed. The government should never ever subsidize elite athletes when we have a real obesity problem amongst the general population in our country.

I love this arguement....

If you were with the EIG would you build it downtown? They surely aren't maximizing revenues by building it on some of the most expensive land in the city, tougher design standards, nearby parking, mass transit access, competition for pre/post game food and drinks.

By building this arena downtown they are doing something very important for the city, the city should return the favour by giving something back.

[feepa]

I think the problem with building more seats is not cost so much as viability and sight lines.
I know personally, if I could go to an Oilers game, I wouldnt be up on the 3rd deck to watch it, I would rather go to pub 1905 with a few forumers then 3rd deck.

That being said, they could still do something nice around 20,000, but 40,000 is a next to impossible, I say. You'd need a ladder to get into some of those seats.

[Riise]

Edmonton hosted the Hockey Classic at the Commonwealth Stadium, 60,000 fans saw it in -30c weather so we can afford to have a new 21,000 seat colleseum.

This is a rather poor argument as the Classic was a one time event. If they had a few of them every season do you honestly think that they would get 60,000 people coming out every time? The argument you are using is the same one the demised Edmonton Aviators used when they got an A-League franchise. They looked at the numbers from the FIFA Under-18 Women's World Cup matches that were played at Commonwealth, which were very good, and said that an A-League team would be able to draw at least half of the crowds. They ended up having an average attendance under 1,000, or around that, and had to be taken control of by the league mid-season. I'd love to see 20,000+ arenas in Alberta as that would mean more cheap, or shall I say reasonable, seats for the average family but seeing how the NHL is a "business" it just isn't feasible.

Merry Christmas!

[Hootch]

Would you want to go to a hockey game with 13,000 people in the stands of a 21,000 seat arena?

I think it's laughable to claim that one of the most passionate hockey cities in the world would see 13,000 fans on a regular basis. Edmonton could easily get 21,000 spectators for the Oilers, especially now.

[krazycanuck]

Yes, 'cause 13,000 fans is a common sight in Edmonton... http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/6923/jerkitto3.gif

no, not right now...but 13000 has been common in the past in Edmonton and having all that supply could lead to even lower numbers than in the past.

[Hootch]

It was hardly "common". You're trying to tell me, that in their 26 year history, that 13,000 in Rexall Place, was "common"? Only a moron (aka a Flames fan) would make such a ridiculous claim. The only time attendance fell short of 15,000 was a couple years in the mid-90's because A) Pocklington B) Worst team in the NHL. Once the Oilers got committed ownership that wanted to keep them in Edmonton, the fans came back.

Some Flames fans should research their facts before they open their dumb traps. :haha:

[krazycanuck]

It was hardly "common". You're trying to tell me, that in their 26 year history, that 13,000 in Rexall Place, was "common"? Only a moron (aka a Flames fan) would make such a ridiculous claim. The only time attendance fell short of 15,000 was the mid-90's because A) Pocklington B) Worst team in the NHL.

Some Flames fans should research their facts before they open their dumb traps. :haha:

Researched...check. here you go....Edmonton oilers attendance for:

1993-94 1994-95 1995-96
13478 13124 12335


So, now...how would you rank the atmosphere of a 21,000 seat arena, with 13,000 people in the stands?

Oiler fans should know their own history before shooting their mouths off.

[Hootch]

Again, those numbers come from a period when the Oilers were under constant threats of relocation. Not to mention they were the worst team in the league as a result of inept management. Considering the circumstances, I doubt the Oilers will ever average 13,000 fans again. That is an erroneous argument.

Stupid Flames fans.

[krazycanuck]

Calling them the worst team in the league during that time is a bit of a stretch...

But anyways, you misinterprited my point. I'm not saying that the Oilers attendance is going to nosedive if they move into a massive building...what I am saying is that if circumstances do come to pass where small crowds become the norm (like they have in the past)is a 21,000 seat arena still going to be attractive?

Absolutely it would be nice to have during the playoffs or when the team is flying and the Oilers are the hottest ticket in town.

However...what about when they miss the playoffs a few years in a row? We both know that no team in the NHL (aside from the maple laughs) will sellout every single game regardless of how the team is playing. with an arena that big over the long term you'll see a lot more crowds far below capacity, than games sold out.

It's like having a 3 person family and buying a 7 bedroom house for when you have family come over 5 times a year. in short. 18,000 is sustainable and 21,000 is not.

[Hootch]

It's a stretch if you're a Flames fan in a losing argument. The Oilers missed the playoffs two out of three years from 2002-2004 and they were still the hottest ticket in town. In the highly unlikely event the mid-90's come back full circle, I guess they could make like the Saddlemorgue and cover the Sportchek Zone with tarps and claim a sellout is 17,000.

Don't question our loyalty and superior atmosphere either. Lest we forget game "I can hear a pin drop" 7?

[CorporateWhore]

man, hootch you're one bitter edmontonian. deep down I think you must really love the flames...

[krazycanuck]

It's a stretch if you're a Flames fan in a losing argument. The Oilers missed the playoffs two out of three years from 2002-2004 and they were still the hottest ticket in town. In the highly unlikely event the mid-90's come back full circle, I guess they could make like the Saddlemorgue and cover the Sportchek Zone with tarps and claim a sellout is 17,000.

Don't question our loyalty and superior atmosphere either. Lest we forget game "I can hear a pin drop" 7?

*yawn* well, your hottest ticket it town did not equal a sold out building night in and night out. So, if that's about as good as it gets. a good Edmonton crowd is 16,500 a night. Let's build a 21,000 seat arena for that. Good idea. Go talk to the marketing folks over with the blackhawks and see what their thoughts are on their arena.

ok, so right now, do you think the Oilers could fill 21,000 seats? honestly? and I don't mean for the Saturday night Vancouver or Calgary games. I'm talking, would 21,000 people pay money to go watch Columbus, Minnesota or the Panthers on a Wednesday night in the middle of January? doubt it. The idea of an arena that big is overkill and makes very little sense for the short term, and no sense for the longterm.

Even Oilers brass isn't going to screw around with somthing so big, so why are you even arguing that it's a good idea? NO NHL arena will be built in the next 20 years with a capacity above 20k.

Also, never question a Flames fan's loyalty. 7 years of no playoffs and an average attendance that never once dropped below 15,000 and now we're riding a 60 game streak of sellout crowds in a 19,289 seat building. Hell, last year the Oilers were the only Canadian team to NOT sellout every game, and ironically enough, they're the team who plays in the smallest barn.

So, enough of your nonsense hooch,I've read enough of your posts in the past and in this thread to see that not only do you have no clue about sports economics or accepted facts but you also seem to have an IQ similar to the Oilers stick boy. :notacrook:

[Arriviste]

Hootch is tool. I have not encountered one like him in a while.
I feel bad for you guys in E-town having a jackass like him repping you.
He needs an asterix on all his posts clearly stating that his opinions are not those expressed by the majority of Oilers fans, or Edmontonians. They are based on nonsensical jackassery and deep jealousy/resentment/inner sadness.

[Arriviste]

Oh, pwned by krazy! haha Hootch. You have zero credability. OJ Simpson has more.

[Riise]

It's a stretch if you're a Flames fan in a losing argument. The Oilers missed the playoffs two out of three years from 2002-2004 and they were still the hottest ticket in town. In the highly unlikely event the mid-90's come back full circle, I guess they could make like the Saddlemorgue and cover the Sportchek Zone with tarps and claim a sellout is 17,000.

Don't question our loyalty and superior atmosphere either. Lest we forget game "I can hear a pin drop" 7?

Holy Saint Nicholas buddy, I guess getting a sleigh full of tube socks has made you bitter and too much spiked egg nog has affected your ability to think straight. Krazy is not saying that you cannot fill a 21,000 seat arena because he knows that during the good times you will be able to sell out and during the mediocre times you will be able to sell 80%+. What he is bringing up is the point that during the very bad spells, which can last for a few years (3 seasons in the example above), the arena will be very empty and possibly a financial burden. You brought up the point that the dome tarped around 2,000 seats but that's arguably reasonable because it was only 10% of the total and brought the capacity of the dome into the mid-range league capacity. Bringing a 21,000 seat arena down to 17,000 would require tarping 20% of the seats while still having to pay, let's say 95%, of the arena cost.

Nobody is questioning the loyalty of Oiler fans just the feasibility of them having a 21,000+ seat arena. Just because people from Calgary are saying that the Oilers cannot do something doesn't mean that the "Flamers" are attacking, maybe we are giving you an intelligent and unbiased opinion that shows that you guys cannot do one thing. It's not like he said Smyth is an untalented hillbilly and the Oilers will place last this year.

[SHOFEAR]

/\ To be fair, I'm pretty sure the only game that wasn't sold out last year was a game against San Jose that was on the tail end of the oilers seven game or so losing streak in nov/oct.

I wouldn't expect to see a return to the 13 000 years of the mid 90's, like hootch said there were some pretty unusual circumstances. But I'm also not expecting the same type of demand we see now for the life of a new arena. Building anything over 19 000 is crazy.

[CMD UW]

Overall capacity is fine, but I think one has to examine the profit margins between general seating and corporate suites. I am willing to bet that the margin on corporate suites is much higher than your general seating. I think 18,000 with at least x3 more suites is suffice in this market.

[feepa]

TV Rights Sales and Luxury Boxes is where the money is at. Other seating, parking, food and beverages are a second.

[freeweed]

I think the profit issue is more important than the sellout issue. No one in their right mind would argue that the Flames couldn't sell out a 20k+ building, every game, right now. Ticketmaster's website regularly crashes when the Flames release even a few extra tickets, because literally thousands of people are vying for a few dozen spare seats. Those of us on the email list know what it's like when we get the 10am email, and by 10:05 Ticketmaster is offline. And Calgary is only going to grow.

The problem is that these extra seats bring in next to no revenue, compared to luxury boxes. With moden arena construction techniques you *could* build say a 30,000 seat arena, all with good sightlines - but it wouldn't really bring in enough extra revenue to justify the cost of building them in the long run.

The biggest pisser is that with Flames tickets pretty much unavailable every game, a lot of fans are giving up trying - so when the lean years come, people aren't going to bother as they've just gotten used to never going. Sadly, hockey is more about making profits than ensuring that every fan who wants to, can see a game live. Well, sadly for the fan anyway - in theory in the long run this will still keep the teams financially viable, although we'll see just how that pans out.

Personally, a part of me would LOVE to live in an American city where you can get tickets to every game just by walking up. It's fun if it's sold out, yes, but I'm there more for the love of watching the game itself, and not for the "atmosphere" of a capacity house. I'm in the minority on this one I suspect. :(

Thankfully, I'm still able to see 20 or so games live each season thanks to a little secret that I'm not willing to share. :D Would be nice to be able to get season tickets, though...

[rapid_business]

Way off topic, but was the Pacific Center designed by the same architect as Rexall Place? very similar if my memory serves me right.

(And here is hopping I can get ANY pair of tickets 20 seconds after the next batch goes on sale in early January)

[Hootch]

Does anyone mind pointing out what I posted that was so bad? 'Cause it looks like I've yet again incurred the puny wrath of the Lames faithful. It's like someone ran a hillbilly through a Xerox machine! And so angry on Christmas? Tsk tsk. Start writing those letters now, folks!

man, hootch you're one bitter edmontonian. deep down I think you must really love the flames...

Nice edit. What did it say first? Don't you post at calgarypuck? You know, the forum where you can find more Oilers topics than Flames topics? Just like how there are more Oil fans than Lames fans at the Saddlemorgue?

Hootch is tool. I have not encountered one like him in a while.
I feel bad for you guys in E-town having a jackass like him repping you.
He needs an asterix on all his posts clearly stating that his opinions are not those expressed by the majority of Oilers fans, or Edmontonians. They are based on nonsensical jackassery and deep jealousy/resentment/inner sadness.

This is insane, coming from the calgarypuck crowd. I'll never forget when a poster there said he wanted Edmonton bombed to the ground and even said "There's nothing better than the smell of burnt Edmontonians in the morning" and that kind of behaviour is encouraged! That's some sick s***. And someone who posts at a forum like that has the gall to accuse my arguments of being "nonsensical jackassery"? What do you call the arguments from the Lames fans in this thread? "Inane dips***tery"?

Although I must admit that I do indeed feel deep jealously over the Flames vast array of Championships, resentment that it wasn't the Oilers who lost to Anaheim in 7 games, and inner sadness that it isn't the Oilers who have been past the first round exactly once since 1989. Gee, I wish that was us!

Oh, pwned by krazy! haha Hootch. You have zero credability. OJ Simpson has more.

Do you hold it for him when he takes a piss too? A calgarypuck poster accusing anyone of having no cred is laughable. Anna Nicole Smith has more class than you guys. And "pwned"? I'm guessing you're a Flames fan, or a 40-year old virgin? Heh, like those two things aren't one & the same, huh?

And I'm hardly the grammar/spelling police, but don't you think you should use your spell checker before telling someone "U havv know credability!"?

*yawn* well, your hottest ticket it town did not equal a sold out building night in and night out. So, if that's about as good as it gets. a good Edmonton crowd is 16,500 a night. Let's build a 21,000 seat arena for that. Good idea. Go talk to the marketing folks over with the blackhawks and see what their thoughts are on their arena.

Hey, no need to get snarky because I revealed the inconsistencies in your arguments, which amount to "Because things were like this in a completely different hockey market, they will most certainly be that way in Edmonton". 16,500 is not "as good as it gets in Edmonton".

You're very quick to point out the lowest attendance for the Oilers (I outlined the circumstances that led to the low attendance and Lames fans chose to ignore it and attack me instead; typical Lames fans), but you never mentioned the 57,000+ Oil fans at the Heritage Classic, or that Northlands—when the population of Edmonton was little more than half what it is now—was selling out a 17,500 seat coliseum in the mid-80s. Never mind that the Oilers have been operating at 99.5% capacity for the past 5 seasons. If you're not to acknowledge that, then don't bother arguing. It's useless and a waste of time.

And newsflash: Edmonton and Chicago are two totally different markets. And by all accounts I've read, Wirtz is just as effective at keeping fans away as Pocklington was. Have you talked to their "marketing folks"? Do you even know that they televise next to no 'Hawks games? Instead of comparing Edmonton and Chicago because it suits your transparent argument, why not make a justifiable comparison like Edmonton and Montreal? Heck, even Montreal didn't sellout during non-playoff years, but I doubt they're regretting building Centre Bell to seat 21,273.

ok, so right now, do you think the Oilers could fill 21,000 seats? honestly?

Right now, easily. The Oilers interest is at an all-time high and not only is there a waiting list for tickets, but for company suites as well.

and I don't mean for the Saturday night Vancouver or Calgary games. I'm talking

Maybe to Calgarians the Oilers are the "Game of the Year/Must See!" type games, but hardly in Edmonton. The Canucks are just another team.

would 21,000 people pay money to go watch Columbus, Minnesota or the Panthers on a Wednesday night in the middle of January? doubt it.

I'll take your word for it even though the Oilers have sold out for those teams in the past. :rolleyes:

The idea of an arena that big is overkill and makes very little sense for the short term, and no sense for the longterm.

Can you explain "how" without resorting to made-up facts and blanket statements? Keeping in mind that the Oilers are obviously not going to be the only tenant? Keeping in mind that I'm not saying they should build a 20,000+ seat arena, only that Oilers fans would fill it.

Also, never question a Flames fan's loyalty. 7 years of no playoffs and an average attendance that never once dropped below 15,000 and now we're riding a 60 game streak of sellout crowds in a 19,289 seat building. Hell, last year the Oilers were the only Canadian team to NOT sellout every game, and ironically enough, they're the team who plays in the smallest barn.

Wow! Congrats! They also never had to endure the circumstances Oiler fans did in the mid-90s. Are you going to keep ignoring that as long as it's convenient for you? And the Saddlemorgue was always half-full in those days more often than not. It was thanks to Oilers, Canucks, Habs, and Leafs fans helping sell the building out on the nights those teams came to town. And the one game the Oilers didn't sell out last season (vs. the Sharks and they were replacing the banners with new ones before the game), was due to a glitch in their computer system that didn't process the half-price singles.

Again you show your amusing tendency to open your uninformed trap before the knowing the facts. In 2004, the Calgary Flames, the year they made the finals, the season opener - against the Edmonton Oilers - only had 16,009 fans. Of course 10,000 of those were Oil fans but still. It was the year they made the finals, never mind it was the season opener after 7 non-playoff years! Circumstances don't matter; results do! This is how you argue, and it's laughable.

So, enough of your nonsense hooch,I've read enough of your posts in the past and in this thread to see that not only do you have no clue about sports economics or accepted facts but you also seem to have an IQ similar to the Oilers stick boy.

And I've read enough in the past from you and your ilk to paint all of you with a broad stroke of the same s***-based paint. And buddy, you ARE the Oilers stick boy. As a hockey city, Calgary eats Edmonton's dust.

All I was arguing is that Oil fans COULD sellout a 21,000 seat arena until krazycanuck and his "Nasty Bois" turned this into a fricking crusade.

[rapid_business]

wow... what is this, grade 5? That was the longest post on incoherant crap I've ever read on this forum. seriously, save this for the menial b*tching section at www.oilfansVSflamesfans.com .

The arena won't be 21,000. Plain and simple. 18,500-19k, probably. Let's get back on topic.

[Arriviste]

What the fuck is Calgarypuck? Thats what I'd like to know.
Way to make yourself look even more sad and ridiculous. A long rambling nonsensical posts is the most sure fire way to prove your idiocy/discomfort within yourself.

[feepa]

What the fuck is Calgarypuck? Thats what I'd like to know.
Way to make yourself look even more sad and ridiculous. A long rambling nonsensical posts is the most sure fire way to prove your idiocy/discomfort within yourself.

well, its http://www.calgarypuck.com , Its a forum for people to discuss Flames Hockey, and Hockey in general, and alot of time, the team to the north. But that happens on www.oilfans.com too, just in reverse.

[Hootch]

What the fuck is Calgarypuck? Thats what I'd like to know.
Way to make yourself look even more sad and ridiculous. A long rambling nonsensical posts is the most sure fire way to prove your idiocy/discomfort within yourself.

Resorting to potty language is a sure sign of a dull mind and slow wit.

Notice how you use personal attacks the moment you can't handle the debate? I do.

[CMD UW]

Ok, this is BS already folks....this will be shut down if this continues.

[itom 987]

We don't need arguements from other forums spilling into Skyscraperpage.

[CorporateWhore]

Can someone volunteer and give Hootch a Christmas hug? I think the guy needs a little more love in his life. I would do it myself, but I'm still reeling from him attacking me for editing a spelling mistake on a post.

[Arriviste]

Resorting to potty language is a sure sign of a dull mind and slow wit.

Notice how you use personal attacks the moment you can't handle the debate? I do.

Yah got me there Hootch. Im obviously not competant enough to express my opinion in your presence.
Hahahahahahahaha, you make me laugh.
Tool.
Way to go bud, you really showed me who's has the superior intellect.
Keep dreaming. Youre blind to the truth.

PS, I could debate your ass back to the stoneage, but have realized that theres no point. Getting the synapse to fire in your brain is more difficult than getting in Mother Teresa's pants.

[Arriviste]

EDIT!
Im sick of the petty BS.
I dont care if Hootch and Feepa slander me some more.
E-Town forumers, Calgary forumers, lets just stop being so touchy. A minor slight here and there doesn't hurt anyone. Over sensitivity is a quikly wrecking the vibe in the Western Section, so I'm giving it up.
I can be quite the prick, and I realize, I'm not going to provoke those two anymore.

[Hardhatdan]

Sup ladies, am I late too late for this circlejerk?

[Arriviste]

Always room for another!

[Hardhatdan]

You going to give me a reach around at least?

[Arriviste]

Elephant Train!!!

[Hardhatdan]

Calgary-Edmonton bonding in this thread.

[feepa]

Arriviste, I never meant to slander you if I did I apoligize.

[Arriviste]

No worries. I don't take offence to that much in actuality. Im just a shit disturber. My apologies to you sir. I get carried away VERY easily.

[Hardhatdan]

BOOOOOOOOOZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Red deer get ready.

[Rocket252]

Nice going guys. I come here to read some hopefully insightful news about a new Oilers arena and wind up seeing a pissing contest.

Who monitors these forums anyways?

[freeweed]

Nice going guys. I come here to read some hopefully insightful news about a new Oilers arena and wind up seeing a pissing contest.

Who monitors these forums anyways?

Yeah, I've been banned for far less. Must be the xmas spirit allowing this to continue.

[Jasper and one o nin]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-nyways..
Cold-fx Place

[rapid_business]

/\ seriously..... great idea. :tup:

[feepa]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-nyways..
Cold-fx Place

With a Rexall Lounge?

Get your Cold-fx at the Rexall Lounge...
I like it, either way

[CMD UW]

Speaking of Rexall, I noticed in the latest Canadian Business magazine that Daryl Katz is now worth 2.07 billion....wow.

[Jasper and one o nin]

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/31/biz_06nhl_Edmonton-Oilers_314229.html

[Distill3d]

for shits and giggles the stats on all three NHL arena's in Western Canada:

Rexall Place
Owner: City of Edmonton
Year Opened: 1974
Capacity: 16,839
Cost To Build: $0 mil
Concessionaire: Sportservice
Average Ticket Price: $43



Pengrowth Saddledome
Owner: City of Calgary
Year Opened: 1983
Capacity: 17,104
Cost To Build: $135 mil
Concessionaire: In-house
Average Ticket Price: $41


General Motors Place
Owner: Orca Bay Sports & Entertainment
Year Opened: 1995
Capacity: 18,630
Cost To Build: $110 mil
Concessionaire: ARAMARK
Average Ticket Price: $54


i can almost understand why Edmonton wants a new arena...

[EastVanMark]

Just hope the design is better than the pyramid style rendering that came out a while back. Would go a long way toward giving some life to that downtown.

[sdimedru]

why does it say $0 Million to build rexall?

do thoey not have the info or is that cost number only how much it cost the respective organization to build the arena (meaning the oilers had to put up zero dollars to get the arena built)

[MistyMountainHop]

Just hope the design is better than the pyramid style rendering that came out a while back. Would go a long way toward giving some life to that downtown.

Does anyone here have a link to that rendering?

[SHOFEAR]

why does it say $0 Million to build rexall?

do thoey not have the info or is that cost number only how much it cost the respective organization to build the arena (meaning the oilers had to put up zero dollars to get the arena built)


I would assume it cost the Oilers $0 to build. I recall seeing figures a while back that pegged the cost of the saddledome much higher, as well, there is no way GM place cost more than $110.

[feepa]

Does anyone here have a link to that rendering?

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1005/newarenain4.jpg


http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9553/200505156025stationlandwb8.jpg

[CMD UW]

Just hope the design is better than the pyramid style rendering that came out a while back. Would go a long way toward giving some life to that downtown.
FYI, the 'pyramid' concept is just a concept. Nothing more.

[Coldrsx]

^bingo....the other rendering posted above has much more "truth" to it.

[bendecido]

for shits and giggles the stats on all three NHL arena's in Western Canada:


i can almost understand why Edmonton wants a new arena...

Disregard those stats as Calgary sells out over 19,500 each game.

[newflyer]

Yes the Saddledome seats 17,104 ...


The Edmonton Collisuim cost $14 Million to build back in 1974. ... renovated in 1994.

[JBinCalgary]

way to go edmonton,

[CorporateWhore]

Yes the Saddledome seats 17,104

nope. the official number for a Saddledome sellout is 19,289.

[basilbrush]

[geek - toggle ON] /

the 17,000ish figure was for a few years prior to the Flames cup run when the team didn't release the obstructed view seats. Obviously there is more demand since that period.

/ [geek toggle OFF]

[newflyer]

nope. the official number for a Saddledome sellout is 19,289.

You are right... the capacity was expanded a couple years back (Cup run). I was looking at numbers from a few years ago.

[Coldrsx]

^upper uppers were opened up for about 2000 more.

[freeweed]

Were the upper decks part of the original Saddledome design? I know they were closed down for much of the 90s but were they later additions? Winnipeg's old arena was like that - built for X,000, then they bolted on a few thousand more seats years (decades?) later. They'd close them off when demand waned.

I get the impression that the nosebleeds in the Saddledome have always been there, just not always used. Anyone know?

[Coldrsx]

i believe they were used when the flames were a good team, back in the late 80's early 90's? or was it added after?

[biggiebear]

They were a part of the original design. The arena was this large to accomadate an international ice surface therefore eliminating some lower bowl seats. The upper seats were there to make up for this and to allow more attendance to Olympic events, remember this was all part of the deal to get an arena funded.

[feepa]

And here, I thought this was a discussion about the Oilers old and possible new arena, and we are talking about the Saddledome?

[CorporateWhore]

Were the upper decks part of the original Saddledome design?

yep, they sure were. you can see the upper decks in this construction shot.
http://www.arcaro.org/tension/album/saddledome01.jpg

Before, the Flames renovated the building in the mid 90's with more luxury boxes, it could house over 21,000 fans (or around there, not sure of the exact figures).

p.s, I can't believe that red and white tent is still there after 2 decades.

[SHOFEAR]

yep, they sure were. you can see the upper decks in this construction shot.
http://www.arcaro.org/tension/album/saddledome01.jpg

Before, the Flames renovated the building in the mid 90's with more luxury boxes, it could house over 21,000 fans (or around there, not sure of the exact figures).

p.s, I can't believe that red and white tent is still there after 2 decades.


cool photo.

[skrish]

The dome could have been a really cool soccer stadium