[SAguy]

Local: S.A. to discuss ways to lure pro franchises


Tom Orsborn
Express-News Staff Writer

Mayor Phil Hardberger and County Judge Nelson Wolff have scheduled a meeting for next week to discuss how San Antonio would pursue NFL or Major League Baseball teams interested in relocation.
"Phil and I need to come to a consensus on how we should approach (teams exploring relocation) and what we are willing do to do get a team," Wolff said Wednesday.

County sports consultant Michael Sculley will also attend the meeting, Wolff said. County commissioners want Sculley to develop relationships with Major League Baseball and the NFL and keep the county apprised of opportunities.

"We have a pipeline to Major League Baseball because of the Marlins, but we need to strengthen that pipeline," Wolff said. "And, at some point, we need to make contact with (NFL commissioner Roger Goodell)."

The county attempted to lure the Marlins away from South Florida last spring with a plan that called for generating $200 million for a stadium by extending the tourism taxes paying for the AT&T Center.

City and county officials are also expected to attend a meeting of the Greater San Antonio Chamber of Commerce's NFL task force Wednesday to discuss how the city would react if the San Diego Chargers decide to pursue relocation.

Under their agreement with San Diego, the Chargers are free to talk to any U.S. city about relocating. But the club has said several times it won't entertain proposals from cities outside San Diego County.

The Chargers, who want a new stadium, can leave San Diego after the 2008 season.

[Trae]

I don't think San Antonio would get the Chargers. You don't want to oversaturate a small market, like San Antonio's either.

[Double L]

I don't think they're announcing catering to the Chargers just yet but instead creating an infrastructure so that they will always be able to pursue any opportunities that arise to bring in new sports teams to the city.

[21bl0wed]

This is where austin and sa should come together and try to bring a team to the AREA. Austin and sa alone would be small markets but put them together and its a decently sized medium market. Just make sure to put the stadium in new braunfels :D :D

[BSofA04]

^^Great idea, but the NB locals would go nuts over that. They are already trying to ban drinking on the river, trying to get an NFL stadium would be ludacris. I was thinking Selma....they'll do just about anything for attention. lol.

[BSofA04]

I wonder if Hardberger would be intrested in talking to Holly Hills? BUT....what's the point? It seems pointless to get our hopes up when we know that no team is going to move to SA (barring another natural disaster).

[METALMiKE]

I wonder if Hardberger would be intrested in talking to Holly Hills? BUT....what's the point? It seems pointless to get our hopes up when we know that no team is going to move to SA (barring another natural disaster).

That Holly Hills dream plan went down the shitter I believe.

http://eastsidevision.info/Vision.htm

[SAguy]

I think it's great that the city hasn't given up on persueing any other pro team for S.A. A more detaill plan will likely be made public after Monday's meeting.

[Schertz1]

I don't think San Antonio would get the Chargers. You don't want to oversaturate a small market, like San Antonio's either.


San Antonio is larger than several markets with more than one professional team. :shrug:

[Geaux Tigers]

Not to crap on San Antonio, but the city's one shot at a NFL team was the Saints. Everyone knows that the next city to get a NFL team will be Los Angeles.

The market is too small to competitively support a MLB team. Perhaps an NHL or MLS expansion team could one day play in San Antonio

[Double L]

Well if you put it in small towns outside the city you're not thinking about the infrastructure and since San Antonio is just San Antonio without Austin, you're wasting your money on trying to get teams you can't get.

[Schertz1]

Not to crap on San Antonio, but the city's one shot at a NFL team was the Saints. Everyone knows that the next city to get a NFL team will be Los Angeles.

The market is too small to competitively support a MLB team. Perhaps an NHL or MLS expansion team could one day play in San Antonio


What about KC, Cincinnati, and Milwaukee?

[JAM]

Put in a fast train between SA and ATX. The SA-ATX Express. Close the time/distance gap. Hell, I'll buy season tics!

[Trae]

What about KC, Cincinnati, and Milwaukee?

All larger than San Antonio's metro.

[Schertz1]

All larger than San Antonio's metro.

San Antonio is already larger than Milwaukee. It is growing much faster than KC or Cincinnati and will be larger in about three years.

[Trae]

Those teams have been there for a while, though. I think their economies help them out. Milwaukee is close to Chicago, also. KC owns almost everything outside St. Louis. Cincy runs northern Kentucky and half of Ohio. They have larger media markets than San Antonio.

[Double L]

Put in a fast train between SA and ATX. The SA-ATX Express. Close the time/distance gap. Hell, I'll buy season tics!

That's actually a good point. Put the stadium in San Antonio and put it on a commuter rail line. Connect to sunset station downtown, rennovate the Alamodome, set up a shuttle service and viola!

[Geaux Tigers]

What about KC, Cincinnati, and Milwaukee?

And when was the last time these smaller cities produced a competitive MLB team? San Antonio, while growning, is still a small market compared to lots of other cities.

[Tex1899]

What about KC, Cincinnati, and Milwaukee?

I agree with Geaux Tigers...
Not to crap on San Antonio, but the city's one shot at a NFL team was the Saints. Everyone knows that the next city to get a NFL team will be Los Angeles.

The market is too small to competitively support a MLB team. Perhaps an NHL or MLS expansion team could one day play in San Antonio

Cincy: long history with baseball...weren't the Reds the first baseball team in America?

Milwaukee: small, stagnant market, but a history of professional sports, at least for the last 50 years...plus, they have a new stadium

Kansas City: gone if MLB ever decides to contract by 2 teams; possibly gone in a few years anyway...when Eugene Kaufman (?), their former owner, died a few years ago, several nails went into their coffin

Here's a good MLS name: Alamo FC

[texastarkus]

This is where austin and sa should come together and try to bring a team to the AREA. Austin and sa alone would be small markets but put them together and its a decently sized medium market. Just make sure to put the stadium in new braunfels :D :D


Why not put the stadium in Kyle or Buda?

[jaga185]

If there was to be a stadium, it would probably have to be in San Marcos, because that is mid-way point between Austin and San Antonio.

[SAguy]

Remember San Antonio is the one chasing after another Pro Team not Austin. Any stadium built would be in or around S.A. not Austin.

[Double L]

If there was to be a stadium, it would probably have to be in San Marcos, because that is mid-way point between Austin and San Antonio.


Well if they did that then nobody would go there because it's too far away. I agree with JAM, connect the Alamodome to sunset station and then everybody will use the commuter rail.

[21bl0wed]

Why not put the stadium in Kyle or Buda?

Hence the two :D ...The ideal spot would be just south of san marcos. But then again maybe not since round rock has some good population i'm not sure they'd want to drive out that far.

[TexasBoi]

the NFL is the best shot. 8 games out of the season. San Antonio can support that. I do not believe they combined with Austin can support 81 games in MLB. And once the newness wears off and the team starts to consistently struggle, it will be like KC.

In fact, bringing up KC, Cincinatti, and Milwaukee does not help your argument. KC barely gets attendance anyway. Milwaukee is 90 miles away from Chicago and Cincinatti is a historic franchise that's been around for decades.

[SAguy]

Leaders Look at Plan for Pro Sports Teams

Local leaders met Monday to put together a plan to elevate San Antonio to the top of the list for professional sports, officials told News 4 WOAI.
“It's just a question of time until we get one or more, professional franchises here, either in baseball, football or both,” San Antonio Mayor Phil Hardberger said Monday. He met with Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff to construct a game plan.

“The whole idea is not to just go for one team, but to establish a climate that will be appealing to all teams, and the commissioners,” Hardberger said.

They were looking at a change in strategy after failed attempts to bring both the NFL and Major League Baseball to San Antonio, officials said.

“First, sitting down with the comissioners, getting a clear reading from them,” Wolff said of the strategy, “what they want, what they expect and what they're willing to do and then work with the individual teams.”

By building relationships with the commissioners, Hardberger said chances of San antonio scoring the NFL or Major League Baseball will only get better.

“From the top down, establish San Antonio as a sports-minded town, that it would make some sense to come here,” Hardberger said.

Hardberger, Wolff, and other area leaders plan to meet with the NFL and MLB commissioners within the next three months.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
KSAT is reporting that S.A. will be meeting with the Chargers in the coming months.

[JAM]

I don't think it would be a good idea to put a stadium inbetween SA and ATX. Even if it means it is personally more difficult for me to make it to a game. I probably wouldn't enjoy going to Buda for a game as much as I would SA, even though I might not make it as often. I don't even like the fact that Dallas is putting it's stadiums inbetween Ft. Worth and Dallas, although that example is less of a stretch. I feel like stadiums belong in the city center where the bulk of the poplulation can enjoy the game and do other things before/after the game. This brings in additional business, and creates a culture. If a stadium is put in the middle of no where or somewhere inbetween, then little culture is created. No dense housing would be built around it, no museums, ect.... The point of getting a stadium is to bring in dollars to the community, and hopefully, those dollars will get regenerated into other areas that other people of other interests will enjoy, even if they don't like professional sports. IMHO.

[matttwentyeight]

Amen Jam, Amen!!!

[Trae]

The Cardinals Stadium is doing just fine in Glendale. I have heard that some "urban developments" are going up around it..like the new Cowboys Stadium. I wish San Antonio good luck with that new NFL team there are trying to get. Los Angeles will give you all a run for your money.

Back when the new franchise was awarded to Houston, Bob McNair came up with more money and had a better stadium proposal. Also, Houston had already had a sports franchise for 40 years at that time before they moved, so that helped.

[satsuchan]

Above #19, every market has football and MLB save LA...

19 Sacramnto-Stktn-Modesto 1,345,820 1.221
20 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 1,345,700 1.221
21 St. Louis 1,222,380 1.109
22 Pittsburgh 1,169,800 1.061
23 Portland, OR 1,099,890 0.998
24 Baltimore 1,089,220 0.988
25 Indianapolis 1,053,750 0.956
26 San Diego 1,026,160 0.931
27 Charlotte 1,020,130 0.926
28 Hartford & New Haven 1,013,350 0.919
29 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) 985,200 0.894
30 Nashville 927,500 0.842
31 Kansas City 903,540 0.820
32 Columbus, OH 890,770 0.808
33 Milwaukee 880,390 0.799
34 Cincinnati 880,190 0.799
35 Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And 815,460 0.740
36 Salt Lake City 810,830 0.736
37 San Antonio 760,410 0.690
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce 751,930 0.682
39 Grand Rapids-Kalmzoo-B.Crk 731,630 0.664
40 Birmingham (Ann and Tusc) 716,520 0.650
41 Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York 707,010 0.641
42 Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws 704,810 0.640
43 New Orleans 672,150 0.610
44 Memphis 657670 0.597
45 Oklahoma City 655,400 0.595
46 Albuquerque-Santa Fe 653,680 0.593
47 Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem 652,020 0.592
48 Las Vegas 651,110 0.591
49 Buffalo 644,430 0.585
50 Louisville 643,290 0.584

So, Sacramento seems to have a bigger chance than SA...

On this list, Austin comes in 54th, just after Jacksonville FL and Albany and before Scranton.

http://www.digitalsyndicate.tv/markets.html

Something to consider about Cincinnati - it also has the large Dayton Market (ranked about 56th); Milwaukee can count on Madison and Green Bay...

[BSofA04]

^^Sacramento can't even get a new arena built for the Kings, good luck on a football stadium for an NFL team lol! As you can see, small DMA markets such as Milwaukee, New Orleans and Buffalo have successful. profitable franchises. You can have one of the biggest markets around, but if no one cares and local leaders arn't able to provide a viable stadium plan smaller progressive markets become a great alternative. Sacramento is about to lose the Kings to KC or LV.....they have NO SHOT WITH THE NFL.

[Schertz1]

I do not think the San Antonio DMA represents San Antonio's true Market/Media Area. First, the DMA is smaller than the Metro. Second, the DMA excludes many small towns, in all directions, which are closer to San Antonio than any other small or medium market. The recent changing to Austin Media from San Antonio Media in Kerr County is only one example. Victoria, Corpus, and Laredo also play a part in this. If you look at smaller metros and compare the DMA to the census data you will really start to question how they are derived. Raleigh and Fayetteville North Carolina is one market with about 65 miles distance between the two. Fayetteville Metro is over 300K and defiantly large enough to support it's own affiliates. Rocky Mount, about 45 miles from Raleigh, has 150K+ and is also included in Raleigh DMA as it should be. If San Antonio plans to market itself to the NFL or MLB it will first need to downplay the DMA system. I don't think it really matters if you can not sellout your games anyway.

[Schertz1]

Above #19, every market has football and MLB save LA...

19 Sacramnto-Stktn-Modesto 1,345,820 1.221
20 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 1,345,700 1.221
21 St. Louis 1,222,380 1.109
22 Pittsburgh 1,169,800 1.061
23 Portland, OR 1,099,890 0.998
24 Baltimore 1,089,220 0.988
25 Indianapolis 1,053,750 0.956
26 San Diego 1,026,160 0.931
27 Charlotte 1,020,130 0.926
28 Hartford & New Haven 1,013,350 0.919
29 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) 985,200 0.894
30 Nashville 927,500 0.842
31 Kansas City 903,540 0.820
32 Columbus, OH 890,770 0.808
33 Milwaukee 880,390 0.799
34 Cincinnati 880,190 0.799
35 Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And 815,460 0.740
36 Salt Lake City 810,830 0.736
37 San Antonio 760,410 0.690
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce 751,930 0.682
39 Grand Rapids-Kalmzoo-B.Crk 731,630 0.664
40 Birmingham (Ann and Tusc) 716,520 0.650
41 Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York 707,010 0.641
42 Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws 704,810 0.640
43 New Orleans 672,150 0.610
44 Memphis 657670 0.597
45 Oklahoma City 655,400 0.595
46 Albuquerque-Santa Fe 653,680 0.593
47 Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem 652,020 0.592
48 Las Vegas 651,110 0.591
49 Buffalo 644,430 0.585
50 Louisville 643,290 0.584

So, Sacramento seems to have a bigger chance than SA...

On this list, Austin comes in 54th, just after Jacksonville FL and Albany and before Scranton.

http://www.digitalsyndicate.tv/markets.html

Something to consider about Cincinnati - it also has the large Dayton Market (ranked about 56th); Milwaukee can count on Madison and Green Bay...

Sacramento has no chance of getting NFL or MLB with San Francisco less the 90 miles away. Oakland is even closer.

[JAM]

^^^^ These numbers don't look representative of real populations. Metro #'s would be more revealing for determining pro-teams. TV markets count as well. So do corporation purchasing power.

[BSofA04]

Jam,
You're absolutly right. Corporate purchasing power is why owners consider San Antonio. With AT&T, USAA and Valero to name a few, those are some significant heavyweights. Throw in a little Red McCombs with Peter Holt (who privatley has expressed intrest in being a potential minority owner), and you have a very promising opportunity. Oh yeah, and football is also KING in Texas.

[kornbread]

Jam,
You're absolutly right. Corporate purchasing power is why owners consider San Antonio. With AT&T, USAA and Valero to name a few, those are some significant heavyweights. Throw in a little Red McCombs with Peter Holt (who privatley has expressed intrest in being a potential minority owner), and you have a very promising opportunity. Oh yeah, and football is also KING in Texas.
That is the problem; naming a few. I think the Alamodome only has 16-32 suites. However, most NFL teams have significantly more suites available (about 100 for newer stadiums). So when you start naming corporate support you need to be able to fill in those kinds of numbers. Obviously the dome falls short here, but the corporate environment is also tight.

You could add HEB, Tesoro, The Capital Group, Clear Channel, Toyota, Frost, IBC, Rackspace... It's starting to get tight. I'm sure there are a few more banking, drug, law related companies. US Global Investors made a bunch this past year, but NFL interest is far from a sure thing just because of the presence of at&t.

Also, to me, I didn't think SA's flirtation with the NFL last year showed a fierce interest in the game. They really should have sold out the 3 games as soon as they went on sale. That really shows something about disposable income for the city. An NFL ticket is expensive and just because football is king, it doesn't mean it sells tickets. They had to give some 10,000 tickets away before the last game on Christmas Eve to get the sellout. Not the strongest showing of support.

In the past the NFL said the roadblock for SA was the stadium, but it was really much more. That resulted in an empty stadium. Sure, it has been put to other use. People have enjoyed college basketball and football, and who could forget the memorial day miracle? But it has not been used for what is was built for and is already likely not suitable for the game today.

Hopefully the leagues willl give the city an honest assesment so they can move on to other things that will help to improve quality of life. When the environment of the city is improved it can start to draw corporate interest and everything else after that will fall into place.

[METALMiKE]

Good post.:)

[SAguy]

Also, to me, I didn't think SA's flirtation with the NFL last year showed a fierce interest in the game. They really should have sold out the 3 games as soon as they went on sale. That really shows something about disposable income for the city. An NFL ticket is expensive and just because football is king, it doesn't mean it sells tickets. They had to give some 10,000 tickets away before the last game on Christmas Eve to get the sellout. Not the strongest showing of support

Remember, the Saints were a mediocre team last year and this is Cowboys country. As for corportate support, I don't see it as a big problem. San Antonio corporate base continues to expand. Also the Alamodome is in the process of adding more suites however; it's still below the 100 mark. If San Antonio does land an NFL team it will likely need to build a new stadium or dome. Perhaps, use the Alamodome temporary until a new one is built.

[Schertz1]

That is the problem; naming a few. I think the Alamodome only has 16-32 suites. However, most NFL teams have significantly more suites available (about 100 for newer stadiums). So when you start naming corporate support you need to be able to fill in those kinds of numbers. Obviously the dome falls short here, but the corporate environment is also tight.

You could add HEB, Tesoro, The Capital Group, Clear Channel, Toyota, Frost, IBC, Rackspace... It's starting to get tight. I'm sure there are a few more banking, drug, law related companies. US Global Investors made a bunch this past year, but NFL interest is far from a sure thing just because of the presence of at&t.

Also, to me, I didn't think SA's flirtation with the NFL last year showed a fierce interest in the game. They really should have sold out the 3 games as soon as they went on sale. That really shows something about disposable income for the city. An NFL ticket is expensive and just because football is king, it doesn't mean it sells tickets. They had to give some 10,000 tickets away before the last game on Christmas Eve to get the sellout. Not the strongest showing of support.

In the past the NFL said the roadblock for SA was the stadium, but it was really much more. That resulted in an empty stadium. Sure, it has been put to other use. People have enjoyed college basketball and football, and who could forget the memorial day miracle? But it has not been used for what is was built for and is already likely not suitable for the game today.

Hopefully the leagues willl give the city an honest assesment so they can move on to other things that will help to improve quality of life. When the environment of the city is improved it can start to draw corporate interest and everything else after that will fall into place.

You know, one thing I hate is a pessimistic attitude. The San Antonio nays Sayers alway pull the same cards and fail to mention the NFL cities that contradict the theories. When you look at Corporation bases look at Buffalo, Kansas City, Nashville, Tampa, Jacksonville, New Orleans, and Green Bay. There are several other Fortune 500s in San Antonio, Washington Mutual, MCI, Microsoft, Home Depot and Lowe’s operations are a few. We also have Zachary, Cordell, Rush, Koontz McCombs, West, Garden Ridge, and KCI. Austin is less than an hour, depending on where you live, so it is only logical may Austin companies would have suites. If Austin had an NFL team San Antonio companies would surly support it. NFL attendance is historically low for Christmas Eve games. Should San Antonio be any different? Basically, you do not know very much about South Central Texas.

[kornbread]

Remember, the Saints were a mediocre team last year and this is Cowboys country.
I went to the Saints-Falcons game and people were cheering for this mediocre team and having fun. I think the people that want the NFL and are willing to support it went to the games. To what extent would/could they support it? They had 3 games to audition for the NFL.

I heard some say people were mad about what Tagliabue said, or that it was Christmas Eve. But if you're trying to land a job and your potential employer expresses doubts you could either try to convince them that you are worth the risk or be offended and not care. How bad do you really want it? If it's the only game in town (like the NFL) you have to swallow your pride (on their schedule) or decide you don't need it.

Of course there are many reasons why people could not go to a game, but SA is a city of over 1 million. If this was the city's chance to prove it could support a team, it was interesting to see what transpired.

[kornbread]

You know, one thing I hate is a pessimistic attitude. The San Antonio nays Sayers alway pull the same cards and fail to mention the NFL cities that contradict the theories. When you look at Corporation bases look at Buffalo, Kansas City, Nashville, Tampa, Jacksonville, New Orleans, and Green Bay. There are several other Fortune 500s in San Antonio, Washington Mutual, MCI, Microsoft, Home Depot and Lowe’s operations are a few. We also have Zachary, Cordell, Rush, Koontz McCombs, West, Garden Ridge, and KCI. Austin is less than an hour, depending on where you live, so it is only logical may Austin companies would have suites. If Austin had an NFL team San Antonio companies would surly support it. NFL attendance is historically low for Christmas Eve games. Should San Antonio be any different? Basically, you do not know very much about South Central Texas.
Well, actually I grew up in San Antonio and South Central Texas. The post I responded to said that corporate purchasing power is why owners consider SA. My point was that it was actually more of a concern than a plus. I would categorize that as more realistic than pessimitic. I think SA is gaining a better corporate base and hopefully it will really flourish over the next 10 years.

I may be wrong, but I tihnk the only presence Microsoft, Lowes and Home Depot currently have in SA is retail and sales. Lowes has a proposed data center near Westover Hills. Microsoft is considering a data center nearby. Garden Ridge is actually headquartered in Houston.

[Schertz1]

Well, actually I grew up in San Antonio and South Central Texas. The post I responded to said that corporate purchasing power is why owners consider SA. My point was that it was actually more of a concern than a plus. I would categorize that as more realistic than pessimitic. I think SA is gaining a better corporate base and hopefully it will really flourishes over the 10 years.

I may be wrong, but I tihnk the only presence Microsoft, Lowes and Home Depot currently have in SA is retail and sales. Lowes has a proposed data center near Westover Hills. Microsoft is considering a data center nearby. Garden Ridge is actually headquartered in Houston.

The Lowe's data center is under construction, or at least the site work. Microsoft currently has a small operation here and may buy the land next to the new Lowe's Data center for their data center. Paypal is also looking at SA for a data center. Garden Ridge may have moved to Houston, but it was started in San Antonio. Lowe's may also build a regional distribution center in the San Antonio area. I made a mistake on Home depot, I meant Wal-Mart.

My point is there are many cities with less corporate presence than San Antonio. A fact you left out.

[NBTX11]

Hi guys,

First time poster, got to add my 2 cents, since I am also a sports fan. First of all, market shares do not buy tickets, people do. So I think it is relevant to look at metro population, or MSA population. Here are the cities in SA's neighborhood. I've put their rank in terms of US population as well as how may teams they have:

20 Tampa–St. Petersburg–Clearwater FL 2,647,658 - 3 teams
21 Pittsburgh PA 2,386,074 - 3 teams
22 Denver–Aurora CO 2,359,994 - 4 teams
23 Cleveland–Elyria–Mentor OH 2,126,318 - 3 teams
24 Portland–Vancouver–Beaverton OR–WA 2,095,861
25 Cincinnati–Middletown OH–KY–IN 2,070,441 - 2 teams
26 Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Roseville CA 2,042,283
27 Kansas City MO–KS 1,947,694 - 2 teams
28 Orlando-Kissimmee FL 1,933,255
29 San Antonio TX 1,889,797 - 1 team
30 San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara CA 1,754,988
31 Las Vegas–Paradise NV 1,710,551
32 Columbus OH 1,708,625
33 Virginia Beach–Norfolk–Newport News VA–NC 1,647,346
34 Indianapolis–Carmel IN 1,640,591 - 2 teams
35 Providence–New Bedford–Fall River RI–MA 1,622,520
36 Charlotte–Gastonia–Concord NC–SC 1,521,278 - 2 teams
37 Milwaukee–Waukesha–West Allis WI 1,512,855 - 2 teams
38 Austin–Round Rock TX 1,452,529
39 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro TN 1,422,544 - 2 teams
40 New Orleans–Metairie–Kenner LA 1,319,367 - 2 teams
41 Memphis TN–MS–AR 1,260,950
42 Jacksonville FL 1,248,371
43 Louisville–Jefferson County KY–IN 1,208,452
44 Hartford–West Hartford–East Hartford CT 1,188,241
45 Richmond VA 1,175,654
46 Oklahoma City OK 1,156,812
47 Buffalo–Niagara Falls NY 1,147,711 - 2 teams
48 Birmingham–Hoover AL 1,090,126
49 Rochester NY 1,039,028
50 Salt Lake City UT 1,034,484

So, as you can see, there are 6 cities SMALLER than SA that have multiple franchises:Buffalo, New Orleans, Nashville, Charlotte, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis. Plus another 6 cities, that are SLIGHTLY larger in terms of population that have mulitple franchises. That's 12 cities that are smaller or nearly the same size that have more than one team. And, that's not even taking into account Austin, the #38 metro area just an hour away. For example, West Palm Beach is considered part of Miami's metro, even though it is the same distance from Miami as Austin is to San Antonio. There are other examples. If you combine the metro populations like ther cities do (DFW, WPB/Miami, etc), you have a top 15 metro area with over 3.3 million people. And SA is the gateway for all of South Texas down to the RGV. I don't there is ANY question, looking at the statistics, that SA can support one if not 2 more franchises.

[TexasBoi]

SA can support football no problem. 8 games out of the year is doable in a football crazy state.Still think it'll be Cowboy country, though. I have a hard time seeing SA supporting Major League Baseball. That league caters to large market or historic teams.

Tampa- Devil Rays were threatened to be contracted. Bucs are good though.

Pittsburgh- historic city that was once large yet they are on the verge of losing it's NHL franchise.

Denver- the only major city within a 600 mile radius. Nothing even remotely close to challenge it. That's why they have all four major sports.

Cleveland- see Pittsburgh

KC- this is not a good argument for people to bring up. the Royals could easily move to another city because the attendance is horrible.

Charlotte fits the discription of SA.

[METALMiKE]

Remember, the Saints were a mediocre team last year and this is Cowboys country. As for corportate support, I don't see it as a big problem. San Antonio corporate base continues to expand. Also the Alamodome is in the process of adding more suites however; it's still below the 100 mark. If San Antonio does land an NFL team it will likely need to build a new stadium or dome. Perhaps, use the Alamodome temporary until a new one is built.

Where did you hear about the Dome adding more suites??

[BSofA04]

Well, actually I grew up in San Antonio and South Central Texas. The post I responded to said that corporate purchasing power is why owners consider SA. My point was that it was actually more of a concern than a plus. I would categorize that as more realistic than pessimitic. I think SA is gaining a better corporate base and hopefully it will really flourish over the next 10 years.

I may be wrong, but I tihnk the only presence Microsoft, Lowes and Home Depot currently have in SA is retail and sales. Lowes has a proposed data center near Westover Hills. Microsoft is considering a data center nearby. Garden Ridge is actually headquartered in Houston.

It was pretty obvious to Tagliabue that the quality of football the NO Saints put on the field in 2005 was far from spectacular. Considering all the mishaps with Ticketmaster and no one actually caring about the Saints, San Antonio did a tremendous job. Tags even saluted the city after our efforts to sell as many tickets in a very short time span (what was it...4....5 months????) for a team TEXAS doesn't follow. Asking someone to fork over $50-$70 for a tix to see a crappy team, and then averaging over 60,000 is quite an accomplishment. I too was hoping for a sellout, as I attended all three games, but San Antonio did its part. Image if the team actually committed to SA.....would your opinion change then? Do you actually think 1 game wouldn't be sold out?

About the Alamodome....it was made very clear along time ago that the dome would be a temporary solution until a new stadium deal was put on the table. You know this man, so stop using the Alamodome as a scapegoat for another crappy reason why SA shouldn't have a football team. Your responses are convincing enough to prove that you know what you're talking about, so why play dumb?

I still don't see why you think local SA powerhouses wouldn't want to be associated with a pro football team? Why would it be a concern? When 65000-70000 San Antonians are showing up 8 times a year to support a local team, why wouldn't they want to be associated with that? HEB would be all over it like they were for the Saints (Sponsered the tailgating), USAA would purchase a suite to raffle off to employees like they do for the Spurs games, and probably one more for the CEO. Valero much the same I'm sure. 2 owners boxes. We could go on and on with this but I'm not sure you even beileve me. Well, I respect your opinion but should SA recieve a team, I hope you purchase tix early, because they won't last.

[LouisianaRush]

Hi guys,

For example, West Palm Beach is considered part of Miami's metro, even though it is the same distance from Miami as Austin is to San Antonio. There are other examples. If you combine the metro populations like ther cities do (DFW, WPB/Miami, etc), you have a top 15 metro area with over 3.3 million people.

Austin/San Antonio is not a metro area this is because of their lack of interconnectivity between the two cities and the vast amount of empty space between the two. West Palm/Miami may be the same distance as Austin/San Antonio, but WPB/Miami are interdependent, has strong commuting patterns, and it has no empty land between the two.

[SAguy]

METALMiKE-Where did you hear about the Dome adding more suites??

I believe I read in the January 12 edition of the San Antonio Business Journal which still out until this Friday. If not there, it was in the San Antonio Express News.

[kornbread]

It was pretty obvious to Tagliabue that the quality of football the NO Saints put on the field in 2005 was far from spectacular. Considering all the mishaps with Ticketmaster and no one actually caring about the Saints, San Antonio did a tremendous job. Tags even saluted the city after our efforts to sell as many tickets in a very short time span (what was it...4....5 months????) for a team TEXAS doesn't follow. Asking someone to fork over $50-$70 for a tix to see a crappy team, and then averaging over 60,000 is quite an accomplishment. I too was hoping for a sellout, as I attended all three games, but San Antonio did its part. Image if the team actually committed to SA.....would your opinion change then? Do you actually think 1 game wouldn't be sold out?

The support would likely be there for the first few seasons, but how long would someone fork out over $50-$70 a ticket if it was a crappy team? The NFL is thinking long term.

I think those that were serious about supporting a team bought their tickets. That's why the first 2 games sold well. I think the buyout-sellout of the third game sends out mixed signals. There is no doubt in Green Bay where they have a waiting list of over 10,000 for season tickets and a crappy team.


About the Alamodome....it was made very clear along time ago that the dome would be a temporary solution until a new stadium deal was put on the table. You know this man, so stop using the Alamodome as a scapegoat for another crappy reason why SA shouldn't have a football team. Your responses are convincing enough to prove that you know what you're talking about, so why play dumb?

It seems you misunderstood my point. A new stadium would be included in securing a team. That new stadium would have many more suites than what the Alamodome has. Most new stadiums have around 100 suites, so the NFL is looking for a community that has the demand for those kinds of numbers.

The other mention of the dome was the campaign that if a stadium was built the city would get a team. That obviously didn't happen. Hopefully the leagues will be up-front about the city's realistic chances of getting a team.


I still don't see why you think local SA powerhouses wouldn't want to be associated with a pro football team? Why would it be a concern? When 65000-70000 San Antonians are showing up 8 times a year to support a local team, why wouldn't they want to be associated with that? HEB would be all over it like they were for the Saints (Sponsered the tailgating), USAA would purchase a suite to raffle off to employees like they do for the Spurs games, and probably one more for the CEO. Valero much the same I'm sure. 2 owners boxes. We could go on and on with this but I'm not sure you even beileve me. Well, I respect your opinion but should SA recieve a team, I hope you purchase tix early, because they won't last.
I don't doubt that the city would enjoy support from local corporations. The question was is there the kind of corporate support that NFL teams enjoy in other cities.

San Antonio has 5 Fortune 500 companies; 4 in the top 252 thanks to the big profits from refiners (Valero, at&t, Tesoro, USAA) with Clear Channel being the other F500. After that there is only 1 more (Rush Ent.) in the top 1000. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/cities/

San Antonio also has a fairly low median income like New Orleans
http://www.efanniemae.com/sf/refmaterials/hudmedinc/

How is it that SA does not have a team now? It all comes down to economics. Has the climate changed enough to make the city attractive today? That remains to be seen.

[NBTX11]

The Alamodome would only be a temporary solution in luring a team here. Remember, the city was willing to fork over at least 200 million to lure the Marlins here, with a new stadium. If a team were to seriously look into SA, you can bet Hardberger and Wolff would put up at least 250-300 million to upgrade the alamodome to NFL stadards by adding a whole bunch of suites, or as a downpayment on a new stadium. The current city leadership would do whatever it took to land a team, including forking over big money. After Hardberger leaves office, that might change though. Oh, and by the way, the Alamodome is adding some more suites. That was part of the deal when garza tried bringing in MLS soccer. The city said no to MLS when hardberger took over, but decided to add suites anyway. I don't know how many though, I think it was in the neighborhood of an additional 12-18 suites.

[NBTX11]

Austin/San Antonio is not a metro area this is because of their lack of interconnectivity between the two cities and the vast amount of empty space between the two. West Palm/Miami may be the same distance as Austin/San Antonio, but WPB/Miami are interdependent, has strong commuting patterns, and it has no empty land between the two.

I wouldn't say vast amounts of open space between Austin/San Antonio. New Braunfels is booming. Housing is going in like crazy in places like Schertz/Cibolo. The open lands are disappearing. There is open land, but I would not say vast amounts. You are correct that Austin/SA are not interconnected like WPB/Miami, but a lot of folks in New Braunfels/San Marcos commute to either SA or Austin. I think an NFL franchise, if marketed correctly, could be marketed to both SA and Austin. That is what they were going to do when they talked about putting a MLB stadium on the Comal/Bexar county line for the Marlins.

[BSofA04]

The support would likely be there for the first few seasons, but how long would someone fork out over $50-$70 a ticket if it was a crappy team? The NFL is thinking long term.

I think those that were serious about supporting a team bought their tickets. That's why the first 2 games sold well. I think the buyout-sellout of the third game sends out mixed signals. There is no doubt in Green Bay where they have a waiting list of over 10,000 for season tickets and a crappy team.


It seems you misunderstood my point. A new stadium would be included in securing a team. That new stadium would have many more suites than what the Alamodome has. Most new stadiums have around 100 suites, so the NFL is looking for a community that has the demand for those kinds of numbers.

The other mention of the dome was the campaign that if a stadium was built the city would get a team. That obviously didn't happen. Hopefully the leagues will be up-front about the city's realistic chances of getting a team.


I don't doubt that the city would enjoy support from local corporations. The question was is there the kind of corporate support that NFL teams enjoy in other cities.

San Antonio has 5 Fortune 500 companies; 4 in the top 252 thanks to the big profits from refiners (Valero, at&t, Tesoro, USAA) with Clear Channel being the other F500. After that there is only 1 more (Rush Ent.) in the top 1000. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/cities/

San Antonio also has a fairly low median income like New Orleans
http://www.efanniemae.com/sf/refmaterials/hudmedinc/

How is it that SA does not have a team now? It all comes down to economics. Has the climate changed enough to make the city attractive today? That remains to be seen.

I see your point about the Alamodome and I feel optimistic that we can feel 100+ suites.

At this point, I feel that there is nothing more the city of San Antonio can do other than sit back and wait to see if any paticular league (MLB, NFL) comes forward. Until then, we'll keep growing.

[KevinFromTexas]

Austin and San Antonio are much more connected than they'd probably each care to admit. Maybe not the two cities themselves, but our suburbs are rubbing elbows with each other, and because of that so are the cities of San Antonio and Austin. We have friends in New Braunfels who used to live in Austin. He had a landscape business in Austin and she worked in San Antonio at AT&T. She commuted to work. They finally moved down to New Braunfels to make the commute easier and he still has his landscape business. I believe he does business in both cities and all the suburbs.

On open space, there is some between Austin and San Antonio, and I mean some, it's quickly going away. San Antonio's suburbs of Selma, Live Oak and others are filling in and Austin's suburbs of Kyle and Buda are growing a bunch, too.

[NBTX11]

Don't forget, New Braunfels is considered a suburb of SA, San Marcos of Austin, and they are only about 10 minutes apart, with little land in between them.

[Schertz1]

There are few cities with more than five F500 companies. They are listed below.

New York New York 44
Houston Texas 23
Atlanta Georgia 14
Dallas Texas 11
Chicago Illinois 10
Charlotte North Carolina 7
Cincinnati Ohio 7
Minneapolis Minnesota 7
Philadelphia Pennsylvania 7
Richmond Virginia 7
St. Louis Missouri 7
Milwaukee Wisconsin 6
Pittsburgh Pennsylvania 6
San Francisco California 6
Cleveland Ohio 5
Columbus Ohio 5
Denver Colorado 5
Omaha Nebraska 5
San Antonio Texas 5
Seattle Washington 5

[matttwentyeight]

i work in new braunfels and live in SA, and i see many people move in or out of NB to live near their kids or grandkids who happen to live in austin or san antonio. i am closing on a house on the 12th of next month and they are from richardson (dallas suburb), moving to new braunfels, to be close to their kids; with one in austin, one i NB, and one in san antonio. it really isn't that much of a commute just to come and check out a game one or to nights a week. in fact it would be great to have us all come together in the middle somewhere since everything is booming for every one of these cities between san antonio and austin.

thay need to build a light rail train that coulf take people to and from the games and they can make stops at their cities transit center. each of the transit centers could be perfect for mixed projects like hotels, highend retail, condos, and different services and specalty real estate that would not only help support these little stops but bring in capital from the people visiting these places on their way to work, school, THE GAME, etc.! we need mass transit and that is what the real people (like tagliablue) want to see. it doesn't make sense to have all these stadiums built in locations without the whole picture being looked at from a not just now perspective, but a perspective that can see what is best for our furure. amen

[kornbread]

There are few cities with more than five F500 companies.
SA is fairly well represented there, especially when you throw in HEB (over 11 billion in sales). But dig a little deeper.

The site actually lists the F1000 by state. Also, it only lists by city proper. So include the metro area to get a better idea of comparative cities. For example the Charlotte area has 13 and the Nashville area has 12 in the F1000.

San Antonio's outlying communities are fairly small as suburban communities are many times annexed by the city. SA has 6 in F1000 (adding Rush Ent from New Braunfels).

The F500/1000 list is a good resource to get some insight as to what other city's economies are like and what areas like Nashville, Charlotte, Tampa and Jacksonville have to offer (most recent new cities to get teams).

[NBTX11]

SA is fairly well represented there, especially when you throw in HEB (over 11 billion in sales). But dig a little deeper.

The site actually lists the F1000 by state. Also, it only lists by city proper. So include the metro area to get a better idea of comparative cities. For example the Charlotte area has 13 and the Nashville area has 12 in the F1000.

San Antonio's outlying communities are fairly small as suburban communities are many times annexed by the city. SA has 6 in F1000 (adding Rush Ent from New Braunfels).

The F500/1000 list is a good resource to get some insight as to what other city's economies are like and what areas like Nashville, Charlotte, Tampa and Jacksonville have to offer (most recent new cities to get teams).

Not necessarily, New Braunfels is now over 50,000, and probably will be close to 100K within the next 10-15 years. Comal county is booming, with housing going in by the thousands. New Braunfels is meeting up with Schertz/Cibolo, which is also growing by leaps and bounds.

[kornbread]

Not necessarily, New Braunfels is now over 50,000, and probably will be close to 100K within the next 10-15 years. Comal county is booming, with housing going in by the thousands. New Braunfels is meeting up with Schertz/Cibolo, which is also growing by leaps and bounds.
New Braunfels is definately the exception and you're right about the Schertz area. I could see nearby towns growing faster than the city at some point. Although the city is pretty aggressive about extending itself.

[Schertz1]

SA is fairly well represented there, especially when you throw in HEB (over 11 billion in sales). But dig a little deeper.

The site actually lists the F1000 by state. Also, it only lists by city proper. So include the metro area to get a better idea of comparative cities. For example the Charlotte area has 13 and the Nashville area has 12 in the F1000.

San Antonio's outlying communities are fairly small as suburban communities are many times annexed by the city. SA has 6 in F1000 (adding Rush Ent from New Braunfels).

The F500/1000 list is a good resource to get some insight as to what other city's economies are like and what areas like Nashville, Charlotte, Tampa and Jacksonville have to offer (most recent new cities to get teams).

The point is there are NFL cities with less corporate presence than San Antonio. There is also a big difference between a F500 company and a F900 company. Many of the cities you mention may have more F1000 companies, but the majority of them are in the F700-F1000 range. These companies are not buying naming rights or Superbowl/playoff spots. Again, Austin is very close to San Antonio and they have about five F1000 companies.

[Boris]

Austin and San Antonio are much more connected than they'd probably each care to admit.

They both have a "Mother's Window Tint" :D

[BSofA04]

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[texastarkus]

They both have a "Mother's Window Tint" :D

So does San Marcos....that settles it, put the stadium in San Marcos

[Double L]

:tup:

[Corinth940]

From the latest San Antonio Business Journal

Red McCombs says Alamo City has more ammo for NFL hunt
San Antonio Business Journal - January 26, 2007
by W. Scott Bailey

While the governors of Indiana and Illinois are deciding what to wager each other for Super Bowl XLI, Texas Gov. Rick Perry's office believes the odds of San Antonio eventually landing its own NFL franchise may be improving.

Meanwhile, former NFL owner and San Antonio civic cheerleader Red McCombs says the league's new commissioner likes what he sees in the Alamo City.


McCombs owned the Minnesota Vikings before selling the team in the spring of 2005 to New Jersey real estate developer Zygmunt Wilf. He has been perhaps San Antonio's most outspoken leader in terms of what an NFL team could mean for this region.

McCombs says San Antonio currently has the right political leadership in place -- with San Antonio Mayor Phil Hardberger and Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff -- to make a run for a team. He says the city may have some help in Austin, too.

"Rick Perry has talked to me at length about this," says McCombs about San Antonio and its bid to land an NFL team. "He gets it."

McCombs adds, "I hear from Rick Perry as much as anyone about this. He's as interested as anyone in how we can pull this off."

McCombs says the NFL and Major League Baseball are now fully aware that Perry has taken an interest in San Antonio's quest to land a second major professional sports franchise.

Perry was unavailable for comment at press time. But a spokesman for the governor says Perry is indeed interested in helping San Antonio become Texas' third NFL city.

"The governor definitely wants to see an NFL team in San Antonio," Ted Royer notes. "He believes it would generate tremendous economic impact and pride in the region."

Asked if the governor would support San Antonio leaders' attempt to bring an NFL team to the Alamo City, Royer says: "He would definitely support it."

What that support could include is unclear at present. Royer says it is too premature to project what Perry might be able to bring to the table.

New outlook

Plenty of critics have questioned the ability of San Antonio to support professional football. Still others wonder if Texas needs a third NFL franchise.


Hardberger and Wolff say the naysayers are confusing the old San Antonio with the new. The governor's office agrees.

Perry's assessment of the Alamo City: "He believes San Antonio can definitely support an NFL franchise," Royer says.

Last season, with speculation building that the hurricane-displaced New Orleans Saints might convert their temporary stay in San Antonio into a permanent relocation, NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue told reporters: "... We're not going to be moving any teams into small markets."

So what does San Antonio have now that it didn't have then? A new NFL commissioner, for one thing.

McCombs says he was surprised by Tagliabue's remarks.

"I thought they were unnecessary and a little unrealistically harsh," he says.

This season, Roger Goodell began his tenure as commissioner of the NFL. McCombs says that's another plus for San Antonio.

"Roger has a very positive outlook about San Antonio -- no question," McCombs insists. "Does that mean Roger will get out front and want a team to relocate? No commissioner wants his league to be disrupted.

"But it does mean we don't have to start off by trying to make up ground."

There is evidence that San Antonio's growth is turning heads in the sports world.


While the Florida Marlins' flirtation with San Antonio has apparently ended, the Major League Baseball club's president, David Samson, says he is impressed with the city.

"You've got leadership here that is committed to making this a major league city," Samson says. "When you have the combination of that leadership and a city that is growing and jobs that are being created and a corporate support base that already exists, you're talking about a major league city."

Big prize

McCombs says it is no small achievement that San Antonio's NFL ambitions are now flanked by top leaders at the city, county and state levels.

"Now the political leaders are out front," McCombs explains. "If you don't have that, it's not going to get done."

He adds, "I truly believe we are in the best situation we have been in since Henry Cisneros was mayor to maybe pull the big prize."

Speaking of Cisneros, could the former mayor, largely responsible for the construction of the Alamodome, still have a part to play in all of this?

"Yes," McCombs says. "Without a doubt. He gets it."

What Chicago and Indianapolis get is some serious Super Bowl excitement and the global media exposure that comes with it.

Could San Antonio one day enjoy the same? Supporters say it is not such a far-fetched dream.

"The population (in San Antonio) is booming. The economy is booming. The area is growing -- toward the Hill Country and into Austin," says Royer about San Antonio. "The timing could not be better."


In the chase to convince a team's owner to pick up his franchise and relocate it elsewhere, it's all about timing.

Just ask the folks in Indianapolis, which lured the Colts away from Baltimore.

Or ask McCombs, who, along with Angelo Drossos, picked the perfect time to pluck a professional basketball team out of Dallas, relocate it to San Antonio and rename it the Spurs.

"The NFL will happen in San Antonio," McCombs says. "When? I don't know. But when it's time for the baby to be born, you have to be ready to receive it.

"That's what we are now -- ready to receive the baby. I think the sports world understands that."

Why the new level of confidence?

Because, McCombs explains, "There are leaders here now who understand the importance of the NFL and are going to try and deliver that for them. We've got some ammunition that we did not have before."

[SAguy]

I feel S.A. has a really good chance of landing an NFL team within the next 3-5 years.

[Trae]

I don't. I think Los Angeles has a better chance. It definitely won't be the Saints, and the Chargers are in San Diego until 2008 so a deal would have to be done soon.

[Corinth940]

I don't. I think Los Angeles has a better chance. It definitely won't be the Saints, and the Chargers are in San Diego until 2008 so a deal would have to be done soon.

I agree that LA would be at the top of the NFL's wish list but it certainly is an added bonus in having the governor of your state helping to actively pursue any and all options. But as the article also says, who knows what role "Perry might be able to bring to the table."

[NBTX11]

There is a good possibility the NFL will expand withing the next 4-5 years to put a team in L.A. If/when that happens, the NFL will expand by 2 teams to 34, to keep and even amount of teams. SA will be at the top of the list for expansion. Vegas could also challenge for a team, but I don't see too many other current cities without teams contending for one. The Alamodome is out of date by NFL standards, but would be a good temp solution until a new stadium is built or Alamodome upgraded. Hardberger and Wolff would jump at the chance to put big money into luring an NFL team.

[Trae]

Your crazy to think the NFL will expand in the next five years. They don't want to mess up the system they have now: 32 teams, 16 teams in a Conference, 4 teams in each Division. This way makes it easy for scheduling and playoffs.

[NBTX11]

^^I just saw an article in the Express News about a week ago that said the NFL would consider expansion to 34 teams to put a team in LA, if another team did not relocate there.

[21bl0wed]

Your crazy to think the NFL will expand in the next five years. They don't want to mess up the system they have now: 32 teams, 16 teams in a Conference, 4 teams in each Division. This way makes it easy for scheduling and playoffs.

Off topic but just wondering. When the oilers left houston and went to nashville what caused this? I was a little young at the time to remember. And teams get added pretty often texans/panthers/jaguars/ravens? It's time for some more teams. LA will get one hopefully sa will too our team will just suck like the texans :(

[NBTX11]

Here it is:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/stories/MYSA012607.01D.COL.FBNoliver.goodell.1f7a8e8.html

Goodell, a longtime spearhead for the league's expansion and stadium construction efforts, will be the conduit for any future consideration of South Texas as a target for housing a franchise.

Reports persist that the NFL may be considering expansion to 34 teams in the next six years, with Los Angeles virtually assured one of the spots. Uncertainty surrounds the future for a scattering of existing organizations.

[BSofA04]

Great stuff. Now that Hardberger and Wolff have come to a mutual agreement to pursue franchises only with the consent of the league commish, Goodell is our ticket in.

[kornbread]

Red McCombs says Alamo City has more ammo for NFL hunt
San Antonio Business Journal - January 26, 2007
by W. Scott Bailey

I'm not sure I've read a more uninformative article than this in at least 10 days. The gist is that the governor and current local leaders "get it" (oh yeah, throw in a former mayor). The sports world and new commissioner "understand it". Even though the understanding is different from the getting, it's all good.

Maybe the writer could have asked Red, who owned a franchise, why he didn't move his team to SA. Did he not get it? I mean because if he did you would think SA would have got it because he must get it to be able to identify now as the best time to get it.
:notacrook:
But seriously, thanks for posting the print article for us non-subscribers.

[Corinth940]

Maybe the writer could have asked Red, who owned a franchise, why he didn't move his team to SA. But seriously, thanks for posting the print article for us non-subscribers.

LOL..you're welcome kornbread. I've always wondered the same thing concerning ol' Red. He's so gung-ho on trying to secure a team for SA now and yet he had the option of moving the Vikings to SA any number of times.

[discojames]

I really like the look and location of the Alamodome and would hate to see it replaced by a new stadium since it is less than 15 years old. Does it have the interior space that with the right amount of money it can be brought to NFL standards by adding the requisite number of suites, club seating, upgraded video and sound, and possibly additional seating bringing capacity closer to 70,000? San Antonio is already top tier for Men's and Women's Final Four NCAA basketball so I could see it easily becoming a premier Super Bowl city should a team ever relocate or a franchise is awarded to the city. I would love to see the ESPN Sportscenter team reporting from the Arneson River Theater during Super Bowl week.

[Trae]

Would be nice, but the NFL family ripped Jacksonville when it hosted the Super Bowl. San Antonio and Jacksonville both have rivers, and metro areas are about the same size.

[Schertz1]

Would be nice, but the NFL family ripped Jacksonville when it hosted the Super Bowl. San Antonio and Jacksonville both have rivers, and metro areas are about the same size.

Metro Jacksonville is no where near San Antonio.

[NBTX11]

Metro Jacksonville is no where near San Antonio.

Correct. SA has a WAY bigger metro area than Jacksonville. SA's metro is nearly 2 million (1,889,797 as of last year), while Jacksonville's is barely over 1.2 million. Jax is smaller than Austin, for that matter. SA metro is bigger than the following city metros: Jacksonville, Memphis, New Orleans, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, and others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas

20 Tampa–St. Petersburg–Clearwater FL 2,647,658
21 San Juan–Caguas–Guaynabo PR 2,509,007
22 Pittsburgh PA 2,386,074
23 Denver–Aurora CO 2,359,994
24 Cleveland–Elyria–Mentor OH 2,126,318
25 Portland–Vancouver–Beaverton OR–WA 2,095,861
26 Cincinnati–Middletown OH–KY–IN 2,070,441
27 Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Roseville CA 2,042,283
28 Kansas City MO–KS 1,947,694
29 Orlando-Kissimmee FL 1,933,255
30 San Antonio TX 1,889,797
31 San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara CA 1,754,988
32 Las Vegas–Paradise-Henderson NV 1,710,551
33 Columbus OH 1,708,625
34 Virginia Beach–Norfolk–Newport News VA–NC 1,647,346
35 Indianapolis–Carmel IN 1,640,591 36 Providence–New Bedford–Fall River RI–MA 1,622,520
37 Charlotte–Gastonia–Concord NC–SC 1,521,278
38 Milwaukee–Waukesha–West Allis WI 1,512,855
39 Austin–Round Rock TX 1,452,529
40 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro TN 1,422,544
41 New Orleans–Metairie–Kenner LA 1,319,367
42 Memphis TN–MS–AR 1,260,950
43 Jacksonville FL 1,248,371
44 Louisville–Jefferson County KY–IN 1,208,452
45 Hartford–West Hartford–East Hartford CT 1,188,241
46 Richmond VA 1,175,654
47 Oklahoma City OK 1,156,812
48 Buffalo–Niagara Falls NY 1,147,711 49 Birmingham–Hoover AL 1,090,126
50 Rochester NY 1,039,028

[tmathis]

Would be nice, but the NFL family ripped Jacksonville when it hosted the Super Bowl. San Antonio and Jacksonville both have rivers, and metro areas are about the same size.

Jacksonville is Jacksonville, San Antonio is San Antonio. And the NFL never ripped Jacksonville it was the media and they did not rip it because of its metro population size. They ripped it because they said it was boring (the atmosphere & events) leading up to the Superbowl.

[bresilhac]

I really like the look and location of the Alamodome and would hate to see it replaced by a new stadium since it is less than 15 years old. Does it have the interior space that with the right amount of money it can be brought to NFL standards by adding the requisite number of suites, club seating, upgraded video and sound, and possibly additional seating bringing capacity closer to 70,000? San Antonio is already top tier for Men's and Women's Final Four NCAA basketball so I could see it easily becoming a premier Super Bowl city should a team ever relocate or a franchise is awarded to the city. I would love to see the ESPN Sportscenter team reporting from the Arneson River Theater during Super Bowl week.

I agree that sounds pretty nice. But first things first we must land an NFL team. Along those lines I believe it is inevitable that San Antonio will get a team by or before 2012. Whether it's by expansion or relocation remains the only question. As you mentioned the Alamodome can easily be refurbished to today's modern NFL standards and with the shear size of the metro area filling up the Dome eight or ten times a season would be no problem. The most important thing going in our favor now is that there is a new commissioner. Tagliabue was dead set against San Antonio getting a team under any circumstances. Goodell seems much more amenable to the idea of locating a team here. What bugs me is why has it taken so long for San Antonio to be considered a prime candidate for a team? I guess I answered my own question. Tagliabue.

[Trae]

Correct. SA has a WAY bigger metro area than Jacksonville. SA's metro is nearly 2 million (1,889,797 as of last year), while Jacksonville's is barely over 1.2 million. Jax is smaller than Austin, for that matter. SA metro is bigger than the following city metros: Jacksonville, Memphis, New Orleans, Milwaukee, Charlotte, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, and others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas

20 Tampa–St. Petersburg–Clearwater FL 2,647,658
21 San Juan–Caguas–Guaynabo PR 2,509,007
22 Pittsburgh PA 2,386,074
23 Denver–Aurora CO 2,359,994
24 Cleveland–Elyria–Mentor OH 2,126,318
25 Portland–Vancouver–Beaverton OR–WA 2,095,861
26 Cincinnati–Middletown OH–KY–IN 2,070,441
27 Sacramento–Arden-Arcade–Roseville CA 2,042,283
28 Kansas City MO–KS 1,947,694
29 Orlando-Kissimmee FL 1,933,255
30 San Antonio TX 1,889,797
31 San Jose–Sunnyvale–Santa Clara CA 1,754,988
32 Las Vegas–Paradise-Henderson NV 1,710,551
33 Columbus OH 1,708,625
34 Virginia Beach–Norfolk–Newport News VA–NC 1,647,346
35 Indianapolis–Carmel IN 1,640,591 36 Providence–New Bedford–Fall River RI–MA 1,622,520
37 Charlotte–Gastonia–Concord NC–SC 1,521,278
38 Milwaukee–Waukesha–West Allis WI 1,512,855
39 Austin–Round Rock TX 1,452,529
40 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro TN 1,422,544
41 New Orleans–Metairie–Kenner LA 1,319,367
42 Memphis TN–MS–AR 1,260,950
43 Jacksonville FL 1,248,371
44 Louisville–Jefferson County KY–IN 1,208,452
45 Hartford–West Hartford–East Hartford CT 1,188,241
46 Richmond VA 1,175,654
47 Oklahoma City OK 1,156,812
48 Buffalo–Niagara Falls NY 1,147,711 49 Birmingham–Hoover AL 1,090,126
50 Rochester NY 1,039,028

Charlotte feels so much bigger than San Antonio, especially in urban development. Same with New Orleans, too.

Also, San Jose? I don't know how one boulevard can separate San Francisco-Oakland from San Jose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Statistical_Area

[NBTX11]

Feeling doesn't really have anything to do with it. Population does. And the fact is, SA metro has more population that both some NFL cities, and cities with 2 or more professional franchises. Media Market size not withstanding. AND that doesn't even include Austin. I wonder how many of these NFL cities around SA's size have an Austin sized city just a stone's throw away? Funny they never seem to mention the fact there is another huge metro just one hour away from SA.

[Schertz1]

I grew up in North Carolina and Charlotte does not seem as urban as San Antonio. There are, however, more high-rise buildings in their CBD. Last I remember, Charlotte had several dirt roads-not alleys- within the city limits only 10 to 15 years ago. New Orleans also only has a larger CBD. NO is also quick to point out Baton Rouge and Mississippi also support us. When you take the two together, BR and pre-katrina NO, they are about the size of San Antonio.

The San Antonio/Austin area has over 3.5 million people according to some estimates. Approaching 4 million without including the valley or Corpus Christi, is quite a market. The 1.89 million is a 2005 estimate for San Antonio.

[texastarkus]

I grew up in North Carolina and Charlotte does not seem as urban as San Antonio. There are, however, more high-rise buildings in their CBD. Last I remember, Charlotte had several dirt roads-not alleys- within the city limits only 10 to 15 years ago. New Orleans also only has a larger CBD. NO is also quick to point out Baton Rouge and Mississippi also support us. When you take the two together, BR and pre-katrina NO, they are about the size of San Antonio.

The San Antonio/Austin area has over 3.5 million people according to some estimates. Approaching 4 million without including the valley or Corpus Christi, is quite a market. The 1.89 million is a 2005 estimate for San Antonio.


Don't bank on support from Austin. Remember a few years back when your town leaders tried to steal our arena football team? I do and I'm sure the sports community will, too.

[Trae]

Feeling doesn't really have anything to do with it. Population does. And the fact is, SA metro has more population that both some NFL cities, and cities with 2 or more professional franchises. Media Market size not withstanding. AND that doesn't even include Austin. I wonder how many of these NFL cities around SA's size have an Austin sized city just a stone's throw away? Funny they never seem to mention the fact there is another huge metro just one hour away from SA.

I grew up in North Carolina and Charlotte does not seem as urban as San Antonio. There are, however, more high-rise buildings in their CBD. Last I remember, Charlotte had several dirt roads-not alleys- within the city limits only 10 to 15 years ago. New Orleans also only has a larger CBD. NO is also quick to point out Baton Rouge and Mississippi also support us. When you take the two together, BR and pre-katrina NO, they are about the size of San Antonio.

The San Antonio/Austin area has over 3.5 million people according to some estimates. Approaching 4 million without including the valley or Corpus Christi, is quite a market. The 1.89 million is a 2005 estimate for San Antonio.

Charlotte does seem more urban than San Antonio. Just go look at some of the projects going up in its CBD + Uptown.

How are you going to include Corpus Christi and the Valley into San Antonio's market? Both of those places are far away from San Antonio. SA also doesn't have as much disposable income as some of those cities with two pro-teams. Add in Austin, then it probably does. San Antonio-Austin has close to 3.5 million, not over it (if you just add in the metro numbers). Almost 300,000 less actually. Media market is what counts. I don't know how many cities have a metro like Austin a stone's throw away from their own market, you tell me because I can't think of one.

If the Saints could not fully work when they game (some buyouts because games did not sell out), what makes you think they could do it again?

[bresilhac]

Charlotte does seem more urban than San Antonio. Just go look at some of the projects going up in its CBD + Uptown.

How are you going to include Corpus Christi and the Valley into San Antonio's market? Both of those places are far away from San Antonio. SA also doesn't have as much disposable income as some of those cities with two pro-teams. Add in Austin, then it probably does. San Antonio-Austin has close to 3.5 million, not over it (if you just add in the metro numbers). Almost 300,000 less actually. Media market is what counts. I don't know how many cities have a metro like Austin a stone's throw away from their own market, you tell me because I can't think of one.

If the Saints could not fully work when they game (some buyouts because games did not sell out), what makes you think they could do it again?

Corpus Christi, the Valley and Austin will all be included in San Antonio's NFL market. Just like San Antonio and Austin are apart of Dallas' market now. And 300 miles separate Dallas from San Antonio. And disposable income would not be a problem either. When you include all of the aformentioned area's people, filing up a stadium would present no problems. And do you actually believe that Jacksonville, Nashville or Buffalo are richer than San Antonio? Hardly. And comparing the attendance figures of the three Saints games in San Antonio to what will happen when the NFL comes to town permanantly is a poor example. The Saints have next to no local fanbase here, the tickets were marketed and sold in an impromptu manner when all other teams are given the benefit of a full off-season to sell tickets, and the opponents faced weren't exactly marquee teams to see. Even with all of that the games were sellouts given a nominal amount of corporate support. Which actually is a good thing. When the NFL comes to San Antonio permanantly it will be completely different. The organization will have ample time to market itself to the city and region.

[Trae]

San Antonio is not included in Dallas' market. If that was the case, I guess the Valley, El Paso, and Shreveport are too?

It is not a bad example. If San Antonio really wanted to show the NFL that they could support a team, they would have sold out the stadium, regardless. Just look at OKC last year when the Hornets came. So many games were played in that arena, and almost all were sold out. A lot harder than three NFL games.

I guess the Falcons weren't marquee. The Bills aren't too bad, but I can understand the Lions.

[NBTX11]

We averaged 63K in a 65K stadium, so they were basically sellouts. This with no time to market games. If I remember correctly they only had a couple weeks to sell tix to the first game. Not a whole year like other teams. Not bad for supporting someone else's team. SA would tremendously support thier own franchise.

Also, SA metro is now 1.9 mil (at least) Austin is 1.5 roughly, total is 3.4 mil (at least, probably more by now).

[Trae]

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tpsports/archives/print083787.html

SAN ANTONIO – The Saints fell 10,800 tickets short of their goal of selling out their Alamodome debut against the Buffalo Bills by Thursday at noon.

The deadline became a moot point Thursday when the NFL announced that local television blackout rules would not apply to the three Saints games played in San Antonio this year.

[kornbread]

Don't bank on support from Austin. Remember a few years back when your town leaders tried to steal our arena football team? I do and I'm sure the sports community will, too.
Arena football is about the equivalent of the WNBA. I don't remember this and seriously doubt it ever happened. I'm sure Arena football is still looking to expand...willingly.:koko:

Town..er city leaders actively involved in trying to lure an arena football team? That's like having a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a Stein-Mart

Most people could care less about arena football. Most of the sports community could care less about arena football. Most arena football players could care less about arena football. Please tell me that you're kidding:jester:

This may be the most ridiculous argument I have ever seen. It has to be. I couldn't imagine a worse one or my head would explode. The Austin battle cry: "Remember our Arena football team" You sure it wasn't Round Rock?

If SA ever got an NFL team (and that's a big IF) I'm sure Austin NFL fans would make the trip to see a game if their favorite player or team was playing. "Wow, I only have to drive 80 miles to see my favorite team play. But I'm not going because they tried to take away our ARENA FOOTBALL TEAM. Long live the boycott!" Unbelievable!

Unless a team is truly regional (like between San Marcos & New Braunfels), you'd better depend on your own city for support. Would people from SA support an Austin NFL team? About as much as Austin supports the Spurs. It's there, but you can't depend on the support to be that strong.

[Trae]

That is why I am laughing at the "Corpus Chrisit and the Valley" statements. Would people really do that (make the two-four hour trip)?

[kornbread]

...And do you actually believe that Jacksonville, Nashville or Buffalo are richer than San Antonio? Hardly. And comparing the attendance figures of the three Saints games in San Antonio to what will happen when the NFL comes to town permanantly is a poor example.
I'm not sure how you really measure that. You only need to sell 60-100k tickets per game. The economies of Nashville and Jacksonville are doing well (not sure about Buffalo).

I think the selling of tickets to the Saints games is a legitimate example. When else would the city get the chance to show what kind of support it will bring? This was a chance to make an impression, not make excuses.

If all the games soldout as soon tickets were available, I'm sure it would be held out as a triumph and not a poor example. You can't have it both ways. Is this going to prevent SA from getting team? Maybe not, but I bet it will influence those considering the viability of expansion to the city.

[kornbread]

That is why I am laughing at the "Corpus Chrisit and the Valley" statements. Would people really do that (make the two-four hour trip)?
Of course they would. People from SA and Austin travel up to Dallas to see the cowboys and to Houston to see the stadium. These few visitors will not boost attendance figures.

I think what they were really trying to point out was that those markets could be considered part of SA's TV market. An SA team's games would be shown over Dallas or Houston. Those local markets might get some say in that. I'm not really sure how the NFL handles that.

[Trae]

I don't think that San Antonio would have an easy time getting TV market away from the smaller metros around Texas. Cowboys rule in Austin (well Titans now), and the Valley has many Texans fans.

[KevinFromTexas]

That is why I am laughing at the "Corpus Chrisit and the Valley" statements. Would people really do that (make the two-four hour trip)?

I can say one thing about ties between Corpus Christi and San Antonio. I remember going down to Port Aransas, (suburb of Corpus Christi), on fishing trips with my family and always hearing the park ranger saying that most of the tourists to Corpus Christi and Port Aransas come from San Antonio. They'd always ask where folks were from and we'd tell them Austin and they'd always mention how most of their tourists, (atleast there in the RV park), were from San Antonio. The two cities are only 150 miles apart and are connected by I-37. It's not that far of a stretch to drive that far for a vacation on the beach. Considering how dedicated some people are with sports it wouldn't surprise me to hear of them driving to San Antonio from Corpus Christi. I also frequent another forum, the RGV Forum, (Rio Grande Valley), and many of the people on there visit San Antonio often.

[kornbread]

I don't think that San Antonio would have an easy time getting TV market away from the smaller metros around Texas. Cowboys rule in Austin (well Titans now), and the Valley has many Texans fans.
Loyalty wise, I would agree. But I'm not sure how the networks decide who they will show.

The Valley roots for the Texans? Damn, they must be hardcore football fans. Austin abandoned them for Vince Young.

[Trae]

Yeah the Valley. I belong to a Houston Texans board and we have many people from the Valley. Last year that got barely any Texans games. This year, they got all 16 (or close), because many people down there emailed and phoned one of the TV stations (don't remember which one).

[BSofA04]

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tpsports/archives/print083787.html

SAN ANTONIO – The Saints fell 10,800 tickets short of their goal of selling out their Alamodome debut against the Buffalo Bills by Thursday at noon.

The deadline became a moot point Thursday when the NFL announced that local television blackout rules would not apply to the three Saints games played in San Antonio this year.

WOW! Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to write articles. The game vs. the Bills had 58,688 fans (6,312 less than the normal capacity of 65,000). The game against the Falcons and Lions had 65,562 (overflow) and 63,747 respectively. That comes out to 22,300 more fans per game in San Antonio than in Baton Rouge for an approximate average of 63,000. Sounds like the NO media tried to downplayed the actual figures for some unknown reason.:rolleyes: We won’t go there.