[twoNeurons]

Will we ever get High Speed Rail to Seattle?

In light of recent posts, I thought I'd post a new thread for discussion of Amtrak Cascades Rail between Vancouver to Seattle. There's not a lot of information out there, but here's WSDOT's Long-Range Plan (thanks OfficeDweller):
WSDOT's Long-Range Plan (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/rail/AC_long_range_plan.cfm)

Of particular note are Chapters 3,5,8 and Appendices.

Scott Road Terminus possibility (from OfficeDweller):
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/5266/southwestminsterps4.jpg


A blurb from Chapter 5 (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/rail/amtrakplan-docs/chapter5.pdf) page 33:

What key factors will influence the location of the Amtrak
Cascades’ northern terminus?
As indicated in Exhibit 5-14, a series of infrastructure improvements must be
completed before a third round trip between Seattle and Vancouver, BC is
possible. In this plan, it is assumed that these capital projects will be completed by Amtrak Cascades mid-point service, the most expensive of
which is a new crossing of the Fraser River between Surrey and New
Westminster. The New Westminster Rail Bridge, a swing-span structure
constructed in 1904, is a major choke point for a number of freight and
passenger rail operators in the greater Vancouver area. Canadian officials are
currently studying bridge replacement options, but a funding plan for a new
structure has not yet been developed. Unless and until this bridge is replaced
or substantially upgraded, it will not be possible to add any more Amtrak
Cascades service between Seattle and Pacific Central Station in Vancouver,
BC beyond two daily round trips.

In 2010, Vancouver/Whistler, BC will be hosting the Winter Olympics. This
major international event is expected to draw hundreds of thousands of
visitors to the Vancouver, BC area. If Amtrak Cascades trains are to play a
role as a transportation provider before, during, and after the 2010 Olympic
Games, regional, provincial, and Canadian federal transportation officials will
need to decide if funding the projects necessary for additional Amtrak
Cascades service is a priority for the region, and if these projects will have a
legacy of public benefits after the Olympic Games. These officials will also
have to determine if the current station location is the best place for intercity
rail travelers—when placed within the context of the region’s multi-modal
transportation plan developed for the 2010 Olympic Games and beyond.

The final key factor that will influence the location of the Amtrak Cascades’
northern terminus in Vancouver, BC is customer preference. While a Scott
Road Station could eliminate the need for major rail line improvements north
of the Fraser River, Amtrak and WSDOT have only limited data to assess the
commercial impacts of a northern terminus at Scott Road, rather than
downtown Vancouver. BC. WSDOT, Amtrak, and Canadian officials will
need to gather this customer data and include it in a full benefit/cost
assessment before deciding if relocating the Amtrak Cascades’ northern
terminus from Pacific Central Station to Scott Road is the best course of
action.

Information on Time Savings:


If anyone's interested, check out page 6 of this PDF:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/rail/amtrakplan-docs/chapter3.pdf

The improvements between Bellingham and Vancouver are supposed to be:
Vancouver <---> Bellingham
today 2008* 2023
1:48 1:39 0:50

(original midpoint... but is now undefined due to funding)

Overall Trip Time:
Vancouver <---> Seattle
today 2008 2023
3:55 3:25 2:37

That goes to show you where the bottleneck is. BC. Overall improvement is supposed to Shave 1:18 off the time from Seattle to Vancouver. Bellingham to Vancouver is 0:58 of that... or 75% of the time savings.

Imagine getting to Downtown Seattle from Downtown Vancouver in 2:37.

A CAR takes 2:34 according to Google Maps(with no Traffic and no border wait...).

If you could pre-check customs at the Vancouver terminus it would be MUCH faster than driving.

[mezzanine]

Great find, OD!

From reading the report, it does look like a Surrey terminus is the set plan for the amtrak cascades. still, an international train station will jumpstart another node of development in surrey, perhaps kickstart the old interurban and provide more choices for vancouverites, especially if the scott road skytrain station connection is well-done.

I suspect that if we ever decide to replace the pattullo that a high level rail line would be incorporated into the structure, but who knows when that would happen... although the report says that having double service to the 2 vancouver stations would be difficult to do, hopefully as the service grows and north fraser improvements are made, we can have dedicated service to the 2 terminals (ie. some trains serve only scott rd, some trains serve only vancouver).

[officedweller]

I found the link in the Transportation Forum or in the Northwest Forum.

I've seen plans for a tunnel to replace the rail bridge, but with the elevations, the approaches amounted to big loops on each side to traverse the grades(i.e. like the spiralling rail tunnels in the Rockies)

[Lee_Haber8]

Why don't they make a tunnel instead of a bridge across the Fraser river? A tunnel would also allow HSR and regional rail to have a much closer and convenient transfer to Scott Road. You would need to have hybrid locomotives though, but it would be much easier to design in many ways then a new bridge link

[officedweller]

I think that the main problem with a tunnel is the connections on each side of the river.
The lines on the north side hug the shore and the line from the tunnel would essentially have to do a cloverleaf / spiral in order to rise from the deep tunnel to access the main line.
Even a high level bridge would have to do a big spiral.

Maybe another parallel drawbridge would be a good cheap option?

[SpongeG]

cool info

i used to work right next to the train bridge in new west and trains were stopped or backed up every day - something definately needs to be done

i can't believe that they got rid of the car level of that bridge - they could have at least left it as a pedestrian bridge - i wonder if anyone has thought of reintroducing the second level as a bike/pedestiran bridge...

[mattropolis]

I found the link in the Transportation Forum or in the Northwest Forum.

I've seen plans for a tunnel to replace the rail bridge, but with the elevations, the approaches amounted to big loops on each side to traverse the grades(i.e. like the spiralling rail tunnels in the Rockies)

OD, are those drawings available on the Internet? That would be interesting to see.

[officedweller]

No, the drawings of the tunnel are not publicly available.

[twoNeurons]

od, it never ceases to amaze me, the amount of stuff you find on the web... and other stuff you have access to.

Although, having access to some stuff can be frustrating... when you don't see it happen.

[officedweller]

Poked around on the 'net and found a reference to the New West Tunnel in this document. It also references the Scott Road Station and an inland freight route through Sumas.

http://www.wcog.org/library/imtc/railstudy.pdf

On page 5-5 (page 47):
Other operators on this segment of the corridor include VIA, CP, CN, SRY and Rocky Mountain
Rail Tours. These operations are limited mostly to between Downtown Vancouver and the south
side of the Fraser River Bridge and at Colebrook. Double track north of the bridge mitigates
some problems there, but the bridge itself remains a challenge for the reasons noted above. An
ongoing study is looking at alternatives for replacing the bridge4. One alternative is a rail tunnel
under the Fraser River. This poses several challenges in itself. The tunnel would have an
underwater depth of 25 meters (about 80 feet), which would require an approach of at least 2 to
2.5 kilometers (1.2 to 1.5 miles) on each side. Given these parameters, it is reasonable to assume
that the cost for such an alternative would be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. A goal of
the study is to develop cost estimates for this and other alternatives.

Here's the Scott Road Amtrak scenario (seems rather roundabout):

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8278/scottroadzb3.jpg

And the inland freight route (guess passenger service to the CP Station is a nonstarter):

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1967/freightde9.jpg

[fever]

Thanks for that.

I would have thought that a location where the river is wider, slower, and presumably, shallower, should be considered. Just northeast at Sapperton, the grade is also less than at New Westminster. In any case, any tunnel would be relatively long and expensive because of the grades required for rail.

[twoNeurons]

But the proposal seems like it makes the most sense as a terminal in Surrey, however. It's very close to Scott Road Skytrain. If it means more trains, I'd say do it!


Here's the Scott Road Amtrak scenario (seems rather roundabout):

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8278/scottroadzb3.jpg