[PlanIt]

Couldn't find fastracks megathread...

Costs haunt FasTracks
RTD re-examining scope of plan; key studies fall behind

By Kevin Flynn, Rocky Mountain News
January 13, 2007



RTD is falling behind on key studies required for FasTracks and also is trying to figure out whether the rapid transit system can be built the way it was advertised and for the cost that was promised.
RTD already has made millions of dollars in cuts to the West Corridor from downtown Denver to Golden to stay within budget, and more cuts are on the table. Those moves foreshadow similar problems with the other dozen projects that make up the massive $4.7 billion rail and bus expansion.

The greatest concern centers on environmental studies, which identify ways to avoid or mitigate the impact of construction. All the studies are lagging, some by as many as three years, prompting the regional planning agency that monitors FasTracks to strongly urge RTD to complete them quickly.

Still, RTD says each line will open by the deadlines promised to voters. In fact, the start of service on the West Corridor has been moved up a year.

"Can we open our corridors when promised? Yes," said Jennifer Heisler, FasTracks' corridor planning manager. "This program will be constantly evolving."

Two years into the 12-year program, the agency has hired a team of consultants to look at where everything stands compared with the original package approved by voters in 2004 - budget, schedule, prices, revenue estimates, financing and the scope of various projects.

Officials say a top-to-bottom review is not unusual for a project like FasTracks and they plan to do it periodically through the end of the program in 2017.

"When you have a mega- project like this, it's always good to take a step back and evaluate how you're doing," said Liz Rao, FasTracks' program manager.

The review will be handled by the firms of Parsons Brinckerhoff and Carter & Burgess, which are working for RTD to help manage FasTracks. However, the reviewers are coming from out-of-state offices that are not involved in the project.

At the same time, RTD is doing its own re-examination of the original 2003 plan to determine how realistic it is in 2007. By April, it will reset budget figures for all the projects, taking into account inflation, costs, interest rates and other factors.

FasTracks was planned as a 12-year build out of the rapid transit network and improved bus connections in metro Denver. It features six new rail corridors, three expanded ones, a redeveloped Denver Union Station and more.

In November 2004, metro voters approved a 0.4-cent boost in the RTD sales tax, to a full penny per dollar, to pay for it all.

Since then, not all has gone as planned.

• The West Corridor, the first project out of the chute, has been under the scalpel for months.

First, train service west of Lakewood's major station at the Denver Federal Center to the Jefferson County government complex in Golden was reduced from every five minutes to every 15 minutes. That means RTD can operate the line with fewer train cars. It also allows RTD to build a single track west of Union Boulevard instead of two.

RTD also has moved the track to the south side of West Sixth Avenue freeway west of Union Boulevard, which also saves money. The agency is discussing with Lakewood and Denver the elimination of neighborhood stations at Knox and Lamar streets.

The cuts are needed, RTD says, because the cost of steel, concrete, copper, oil and other essential building commodities has risen sharply since the original 2003 plan.

If that trend holds, RTD might have to build less than it originally planned in many of the transit corridors.

Dave Baskett, Lakewood's transportation planner, said that after years of planning the West Corridor, 11th-hour changes could bring public protests.

"These are pretty major changes and none of this was discussed before," Baskett said. "For 11 years, we've been talking about (putting the tracks) under Sheridan and over Wadsworth. Now you're talking about going over Sheridan and under Wadsworth. What is the process for letting people know about this and getting their involvement in it?"

• Two years of sales tax collections have fallen below the level assumed in the financing plan. RTD has received up to $5 million less each year than it figured, a 2.8 percent shortfall.

As a result, the agency has reduced the estimated total "pay as you go" cash it intends to invest in FasTracks, relying more on money borrowed through bonds.

Last year, RTD issued the first $600 million in FasTracks bonds to address the lower sales-tax revenue and deal with construction inflation. The original plan called for only $200 million in the first bond issue.

That means paying interest sooner than planned. But with more upfront money, RTD can lock in some costs by pre-purchasing materials and hedge against inflation.

And the bonds were issued at a substantially lower average interest rate than envisioned. That saves RTD $7.5 million annually in interest, more than offsetting the lower sales-tax collections.

• The environmental impact studies are behind schedule in every corridor.

The study for the Interstate 225 corridor was supposed to start late in 2005 but still has not begun. The reason is RTD and Aurora have yet to reach an agreement with the Colorado Department of Transportation about using the highway for transit. CDOT has long wanted to put toll lanes where the light rail would be.

Even the West Corridor, which already has a federally approved environmental study, is engaged in another study because of the cost-cutting design changes. Last week, RTD pushed back that study another several months because additional cuts still on the table could require new environmental mitigation measures.

Steve Rudy, transportation planning manager for the Denver Regional Council of Governments, reviewed RTD's annual FasTracks report. DRCOG must reconsider its OK of each FasTracks corridor if RTD makes substantial changes. Rudy said the study delays are of concern, but not enough yet to panic.

"RTD built some float into the schedule at the beginning, but it needs to be diligent in getting these studies completed as quickly as it legally can to keep these things on track," Rudy said.

• A horrific commuter train derailment in January 2005 killed 11 people in Glendale, Calif. In reaction, the Denver area's principal freight railroads, Burlington Northern-Santa Fe and Union Pacific, won't allow new light rail to share right-of-way with their freight trains. They insist on heavier passenger rail cars, which stand up better in a crash.

Also, the railroads won't sell any of their tracks to RTD unless the companies are immune from crash-related lawsuits. That requires legislative action and is holding up negotiations with the railroads for their land, affecting planning on four corridors.

Despite the challenges and delays, RTD says the overall FasTracks program is still on time. In fact, in addition to moving up the opening date for the West Corridor by a year, to 2012, it also moved up a major segment of Union Station renovations and a new light rail maintenance facility - both needed for the west line to function.

RTD bets that by accelerating this work, it will blunt the impact of inflation.

In fact, some early construction could start this year on the West Corridor. The work includes relocating utility lines and building several large bridges over the South Platte River, under Federal Boulevard, over the main freight tracks and elsewhere. Twenty of 24 needed agreements with utility companies already are signed.

From an outside perspective, RTD is acting prudently, said Peggy Catlin, acting executive director of the Colorado Department of Transportation.

"In terms of some of the early action items, they're looking at this the right way," Catlin said. "Just two years into it, it's premature to make dire predictions. Just like with us, our cost estimates are going up and bids are coming in higher than estimates because of escalation in materials."

A look at original plan, current status

A rundown on each major project within FasTracks, comparing the original plan with the current status and what that means to the project:

• 1 - CENTRAL CORRIDOR

Original plan: Extend light rail from Five Points to 40th Avenue. Expand existing stations to allow four-car trains. Add tracks for more frequent trains. Cost: $118.4 million.

Current status: Streetcars might be used instead of light rail through Five Points and the extension. Four-car stations to be built this year. Extra track near Colfax Avenue built and in use. Cost: $118.2 million.

Impact: Streetcars would would be less expensive and less disruptive to the neighborhood and would run to Civic Center as well. But they would be slower than light rail and have fewer riders.

2 - DENVER UNION STATION

Original plan: Environmental study done in early 2005. Design and construction for light-rail access done by mid-2013. Cost: $268.5 million.

Current status: Environmental study is two years behind schedule. Cost for the project is $268.4 million.

Impact: Light-rail work to be speeded up for opening by end of 2012.

Recent selection of a private developer for Union Station could bring design changes and potential for more even delays.

3 - EAST CORRIDOR

Original plan: Study of proposed diesel commuter rail from downtown to DIA done by late 2005.

Service to begin by end of 2014. Cost: $702.1 million.

Current status: The study is two years behind schedule. Instead of diesel, electric rail cars will be used, and three more stations would be added for total of seven. Cost: $702.5 million.

Impact: Electric trains are quicker than diesel service. RTD says that despite the study delay, design and construction will start just three months later than planned. Service will still will begin at the end of 2014.

4 - GOLD LINE

Original plan: Light rail from downtown to Wheat Ridge and Arvada. Environmental study done mid-2007, with opening at the end of 2015. Cost: $463.5 million.

Current status: The study is 15 months behind schedule. Planners are considering electric commuter rail on original path, or light rail and streetcars on alternate alignment. Cost: $463.2 million.

Impact: Electric commuter rail is the only option on the original route because railroads won't allow light rail on this, and other, freight corridors. Still projected for opening at end of 2015.

5 - I-225 CORRIDOR

Original plan: Light rail from Parker Road to Fitzsimons, partly in I-225 median. Environmental study to start in late 2005. Cost: $442.3 million.

Current status: Light rail still planned as extension of T-REX. Environmental study has not yet begun due to impasse with CDOT over the use of I-225. Cost: $441.9 million.

Impact: Study to begin in spring.

RTD expects to use faster method of design and construction, used on T-REX, to keep mid-2015 opening date.

6 - NORTH METRO CORRIDOR

Original plan: Diesel commuter rail to Commerce City and Thornton. Study to start late in 2005, and construction late in 2011. Cost: $435.3 million.

Current status: Study started nine months behind schedule. Light rail, electric commuter rail and alternate alignments are possibilities. Cost: $437.7 million.

Impact: RTD now expects to start construction six months later than original schedule. Still plans on 2015 opening.

7 - NORTHWEST RAIL

Original plan: Commuter rail to Boulder and Longmont. Study to be done in mid-2005. Cost: $566 million.

Current status: Study is three years behind schedule. Final design will start a full year later than expected. Cost: $566 million.

Impact: The design phase will be shortened from 33 months to 24 months and the construction time cut by three months to keep the end of 2014 opening schedule.

8 - SOUTHEAST CORRIDOR

Original plan: Extend T-REX line 2.3 miles south into Lone Tree. Expand stations to handle four-car trains. Add parking to Lincoln garage. Cost: $183 million.

Current status: Four-car station platforms and Lincoln parking addition already done as part of T-REX. On schedule for 2016 opening. Cost: $182.6 million.

Impact: Originally planned to use traditional low-bid contracting method, this project may use faster T-REX method to combine design and construction into a single contract.

9 - SOUTHWEST CORRIDOR

Original plan: Extend Littleton line 2.5 miles to Highlands Ranch. New station at Bates Avenue. Expand all stations to handle four-car trains. Cost: $164.1 million.

Current status: No changes. Study to begin in late 2008, opening at end of 2016. Cost: $163.5 million.

Impact: On schedule, still talking with Englewood and private developer over possibility of building Bates station.

10 - U.S. 36 BUS RAPID TRANSIT

Original plan: Build express-bus and car-pool lanes in center of U.S. 36. Needs state funding for highway work. Cost: $225.5 million.

Current status: Final design now projected to start 15 months later than original plan. Bus ramps already built at some park-n-Rides. Cost: $225.5 million.

Impact: Delay in final design translates to two-year delay in start of construction; still planned for 2016 completion.

11 - WEST CORRIDOR

Original plan: Light rail to Lakewood and Golden. Final design to start beginning of 2006, with opening at the end of 2013. Cost: $508.2 million.

Current status: Construction inflation has caused numerous design changes and cuts, including running trains every 15 minutes instead of every five between the Denver Federal Center and Golden, and possibly using a single track instead of two in that stretch. Cost: $511.8 million.

Impact: Construction to start mid-2008, nine months earlier than original plan, in order to open at the end of 2012 - a year ahead of schedule.

RTD's light rail was pushed as key part of transit plan

FasTracks was sold to voters with the image of RTD's light rail as the cornerstone. But area freight railroads won't allow light rail to share tracks with it unless they use heavier passenger rail cars, which would hold up better in a crash. Now, RTD is considering several different transit vehicles:

• DIESEL COMMUTER RAIL

Considered for: North Metro, Northwest Rail

Cost: $3.6 million

Seats: 90

Length: 85 feet

Weight: 76 tons

Top speed: 79 mph

• ELECTRIC COMMUTER RAIL

Considered for: East, Gold Line, North Metro, Northwest Rail

Cost: $2.8 million

Seats: 90

Length: 85 feet

Weight: 66 tons

Top speed: 79 mph

• LIGHT RAIL

Considered for: I-225, Southeast, Southwest, Central, Gold Line, West

Cost: $3 million

Seats: 63 (125, with standing)

Length: 78 feet

Weight: 45 tons

Top speed: 55 mph

• STREETCAR

Considered for: Central Corridor, Gold Line

Cost: $2.5 million

Seats: 30 (115, with standing)

Length: 66 feet

Weight: 33 tons

Top speed: 25 mph



flynnk@RockyMountainNews.com or 303-954-5247

[glowrock]

Other than the first few paragraphs of scare tactics, it was actually a pretty well-reasoned article, which is what I generally expect from Kevin Flynn. Honestly, it seems like the railroads and CDOT (gee, what a freaking surprise! ;) are the ones behind most of the costs and delays, not RTD... What the hell is CDOT's problem with I-225? I thought it was already decided that toll lanes wouldn't be put on 225 back a few months ago?

Regardless, I have no real concerns here, still. 15 minute trains instead of 5 minute trains on the West Corridor west of the Federal Center really isn't a big deal. Single-tracking it to account for the difference isn't really a big deal, either. It can always be double-tracked at a later date, too.

All I really DO care about is that the East Corridor EIS gets completed already, so construction can begin out to DIA, and sooner rather than later. It's the most important corridor IMO.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[wong21fr]

Damn construction costs taking everything down, what are some options to increase cash assets for FasTracks?

1) Could RTD borrow more money, paying it off over a longer period in order to offset rising construction costs?

2) Investment from the private sector?

3) Does FasTracks need to be reevaluated in terms of maximum price?

The cuts to this point are not that bad, but I do not like the idea of eliminating stations to save money. Everything else can be patched up later on, but taking out stations defeats the goal of a paridigm shift for development.

[comoneymaker]

Lots on FasTracks' plate in '07
People to Watch '07
The Denver Business Journal - January 5, 2007by Cathy ProctorDenver Business Journal
Print this Article Email this Article Reprints RSS Feeds Most Viewed Most Emailed
Kathleen Lavine
Cal Marsella is the general manager of the Regional Trans­portation District.
View Larger 2007 will be the third year of the 12-year FasTracks construction project, and it promises to be a busy one, according to Cal Marsella, general manager of the Regional Transportation District and the man guiding the $4.7 billion effort.

FasTracks intends to build 119 miles of new commuter rail and light rail, 18 miles of bus rapid transit and 21,000 parking slots at rail and bus stations -- plus offer expanded bus service throughout the district. Six new rail lines will be built, along with extensions to three existing lines.


Approved by voters in 2004, the project is slated for completion when the last line opens in 2016.

"There's a lot of moving parts and we're in the middle of it," Marsella said.

In 2007, the FasTracks team -- an extension of RTD's staff -- will work on a wide range of efforts:

•Completing the final design for the 12-mile, $508.2 million West corridor from downtown to Golden, the first line scheduled for completion, in 2012.
•Applying to the Federal Transit Administration for a $292 million grant to build the West corridor.
•Starting to buy right-of-way land for the West corridor as well as starting work to relocate utilities lying in the path of the corridor.
•Completing the final Environmental Impact Study (EIS) for the East corridor to Denver International Airport.
•Publishing the draft EIS, with the Colorado Department of Transportation, for the bus rapid transit corridor along U.S. 36 to Boulder.
•Upgrading station platforms along existing corridors to accommodate light-rail trains with four cars.
•Continuing negotiations with the Union Pacific and Burlington Northern/Santa Fe railroads for access to land along their tracks for FasTracks construction and trains.
•Negotiating and finalizing a contract for the $1 billion development of Denver Union Station with the Union Station Neighborhood Co. LLC, the joint venture of East West Partners and Continuum Partners LLC that won the bid for the project in November.
RTD also will work with Park Meadows mall on the construction of a bridge from the County Line Road light-rail station to the mall.

Currently, riders have no direct access to the mall, as they're blocked by a fence and a sheer 30-foot drop to the parking lot under the station.

RTD set up a temporary, six-week shuttle bus route from the station to the mall to cover the holiday traffic. The shuttle gets about 300 riders per day during the week and 500 daily on weekends, Marsella said.

RTD and the mall each are paying about $40,000 for construction, Marsella said.

The rising cost of construction materials is the biggest concern for Marsella and FasTracks officials. The agency already is studying ways to cut costs on the West corridor -- the first line in the FasTracks package and thus a harbinger for the rest.

Suggestions range from ending the line short of the Jefferson County government offices in Golden to skipping small and large stations to cut costs. Decisions on what should be cut are sure to come in 2007, as construction is scheduled to begin in mid-2008.

Name: Cal Marsella
Age: 56
Title: General manager, Regional Transportation District
Job: Joined RTD in 1995. Manages 2,300 employees and annual operating budget of more than $300 million.
Personal: Holds a bachelor of arts degree and a master's degree in public affairs from the University of Connecticut. Commutes via bus from his Louisville home to RTD's downtown headquarters.


CATHY PROCTOR

[Matt]

Fastracks will be fine. The RMN just needed something to talk about. (and satisfy its majority conservate/libertarian/Jon Caldera/loser readership base)...

[glowrock]

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, Matt...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bcp]

welcome back matt?

if they need to save cash / interest costs, build faster somehow...though i realize that is a gross oversimplification.

they could sell the naming rights to the stations as well...

[pablosan]

Hey Matt, haven't heard from you in a long time.

[SnyderBock]

US-36 Corridor:
I would like to see the US-36 corridor drop the commuter rail alignment and the BRT. Then use the money to put EMU's up US-36 in the BRT's place. When coming into Denver, it could separate from US-36 at some point and come into Denver in the same alignment as currently planned for the DMU route. Same thing for Boulder - at some point approaching Boulder, it could separate from US-36 and go over to the currently planned alignment to go into Boulder - if necessary.

Gold Line:
I would like to see a streetcar from Civic center run west along Colfax to Federal, north up Federal to 38th, then on west as far as they want to take it. Simple, cheaper, effetely serves densest population areas. Meshes well with current plan for the Central corridor to be streetcar from 40th/40th to civic center. Establishes civic Center Station as the hub for a streetcar system - setting up making the Gold line into Civic Center a through line east on Colfax to Aurora. This also sets up making the 40th/40th streetcar line south to Civic center Station, perfect to extend south to Broadway/I-25 Station.

These are my thought, as I have studied them over the last several months. I am a transit planning nut and this is the current version of my evolving plan. I believe there is something to my current suggestions that just makes financial and operational since! What do you think of these possible solutions to RTD's problems?

[BarbulaM1]

Well I love Fastracks and hope it survives, so much that I spent the past few hours on a map :p... It doesn't include any BRT or line colours/lines themselfs. Also the scale is way off, but it gives you a European type map.
http://simvision.net/hostedpictures/RTD/rtd.gif
Sorry for it being so grey, I hope to fix that and add line colors soon. Cheers, and good luck on Fastracks up there.
-BarbulaM1 (simvision.net) Colorado Springs

[glowrock]

Nice effort, BarbulaM1!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bunt_q]

1) Could RTD borrow more money, paying it off over a longer period in order to offset rising construction costs?


Not without another election...

[J Church]

That is one cool-looking map.

[SnyderBock]

Greeting Mayor John W. Hickenlooper,

I previously contacted you regarding Union Station and my concerns about leaving the transfer from light rail to commuter - such what will be necessary to go to the airport with luggage to haul - without covering the 17th Street promenade with a "DIA like" roofing structure.

In light of rising construction costs, RTD now is having to re-evaluate many of the projects in the FasTracks plan. I am contacting you, because I want this plan to be successful. In my letter, I will detail some suggestions that may not only save this project from embarrassment, but also make it even more successful then the current plan. I will demonstrate to you that my ideas can be implemented at no additional cost beyond voter approved FasTracks funding. Last, I will provide you a map, to help you visualize my suggestions. All I ask, is that you engage my ideas with an open mind.

US-36 Corridor:
I propose the US-36 corridor drop the commuter rail alignment and the BRT. Then use the money to put EMU commuter rail up US-36 in the BRT's planned alignment. This saves money by not having to develop two parallel modes of transit for the same corridor, when one mode can serve the transportation needs of the corridor. When coming into Denver, the alignment could separate from US-36 - at some point - and come into Denver in the same alignment as currently planned for the DMU route. Same thing for going into Boulder - at some point approaching Boulder - the alignment could separate from US-36 and go over to the currently planned alignment for going into Boulder.

This will eliminate duplicate transit coverage in the corridor - saving money up front and in maintenance. It will create a more straight and direct rail line between Denver and Boulder. By separating from US-36 alignment - before entering Boulder and Denver city limits - to continue over to the planned existing commuter rail alignment, there is minimal impact on the planned Transit Oriented Developments (TOD's) in both Denver and Boulder. (See Map Below)

Gold Line:
I would like to see a streetcar from Civic Center Station, run west along Colfax to Federal, north up Federal to 38th, then on west as far as they want to take it. Simple, cheaper, effetely serves densest population areas. Meshes well with current plan for the Central Corridor to be streetcar from 40th/40th to Civic Center Station. Establishes Civic Center Station as the hub for a streetcar system - setting up making the Gold line to Civic Center Station, a streetcar through line to be extended east on Colfax to Aurora. This also sets up making the 40th/40th streetcar line south to Civic center Station, perfect to extend south to Broadway/I-25 Station. RTD has expressed the need to move people from the Broadway/I-25 station - north up Broadway - into downtown in order to alleviate congestion of the Central Platte Valley Line. A combination of adding a third track to the Central Platte Valley light rail line and extending the streetcar all the way south from 40th/40th - Civic Center Station - to Broadway/I-25 Station, is the best solution for the people and city of Denver.

This plan will run a modern streetcar (single light rail vehicle units) from Civic Center Station, west to Federal Blvd. then north, by Invesco Field at Mile High and through this core neighborhood/Highlands to 38th street. A spur could come through Highlands across I-25 and the Platte River, join the existing light rail tracks at the Millennium Bridge and those existing tracks into Denver Union Station. This streetcar line could continue on past Coors Field, through the North River Valley area (which is primed for redevelopment) and end at the proposed 40th/40th streetcar/AirTrain station.

The monies saved by making the Gold Line a modern streetcar line, and make the Boulder line a single mode of commuter rail up US-36, will pay for the streetcar proposals in this plan, including the Colfax streetcar to Aurora and the Civic Center Station to Broadway/I-25 extension. I hope I have not overwhelmed you and that I have worded my ideas in a way easy to visualize and comprehend. To help see my vision, I have included a map I threw together real fast to help express my ideas.

Click This Link For A Map: (http://www.freewebs.com/warrenpeaceg2/Music/UnionStation_CivicCenter_Plan5.jpg)
http://www.freewebs.com/warrenpeaceg2/Music/UnionStation_CivicCenter_Plan5.jpg

Perhaps you could see that this proposal gets into the hands of the person of influence that may wish to use these ideas for FasTracks. I will also include the map as an attachment so you may share it with those in charge at RTD. It has been scanned with Norton Anti-Virus for your protection, bu tif you prefer, you can just view the map on my website via the link above.

[glowrock]

I think you're wrong in trying to get the Gold Line to be purely streetcar, SnyderBock. I'm not exactly sure what to think of eliminating the BRT to Boulder and making the DMU electric instead. I don't have a problem with electric over diesel, but the BRT certainly serves an important purpose, especially given that the buses from Boulder to Denver tend to be among the busiest in the metro area...

Believe me, I'm all in favor of the other streetcar ideals you've laid out.
No need to bring up the "where the hell can you put a streetcar on Colfax" thing again, but even if it were a street or two off of Colfax, it would be fine. ;)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[SnyderBock]

How about this then. Leave your precious BRT in place, keep the Gold Line EMU and come up with some monies elsewhere for this streetcar system? It runs from Aurora to Civic Center. Civic Center to Federal and North to the Gold Line and the BRT Line. It also goes from 40th/40th to Civic Center and Civic Center to I-25/Broadway. Maybe FasTracks II?
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n6/warrengfunk7/DenverFasTracks.jpg

[bunt_q]

I am not sure why you are writing the Denver mayor about the US 36 corridor... but in any case, you are a little late to the game here. You think that during the MIS and other processes there weren't many, many people advocating for rail in the US36 right of way? The crappy US 36 plan is the result of a long drawn out process that resulted in what you see as a compromise. Keep in mind, if anything should be dropped from the current plan it is the commuter rail. The BRT will have *much* higher ridership than the rail because it goes where people need to go. Not to mention, you can't get rail into central Boulder with your plan and you have dropped Longmont. You will not find many supporters... We all thought a single *good* rail solution would be better than the camel that we got, but alas it was not to be. Too many people to be satisfied with too little money. Talk to Adam (one of our forumers) - he was somewhat involved in the process that selected the plan you see today.

Not to mention... it's easy for us all to draw lines on a map - who here hasn't done it? But to start writing letters without first thinking through (and at least mentioning) the politics involved is foolish. Streetcars in Colfax? Sure, we all want it... and I think someday we may very well see it. But there are many legtimate concerns about the idea that need to be addressed before we send the mayor a map with a line on it. We here on the forum have posted dozens of proposed cross-sections without coming to a consensus (and hell, we all support the idea - imagine when you bring fire-breathing business owners into the mix)

[Giovoni]

i don't think we should start panicing based on what the RMN says. They are going to pan fastracks until opening day and will exagerate every single change into program ending catastrophies, and won't be happy until every man woman and child is alone in a hummer on 12 lane roads all over the metro area.

[glowrock]

SnyderBock, your streetcar idea seems pretty good. I like the overall scheme of it, I really do.

One question though, on that map, you have the West Corridor somewhat wrong. It should follow along 13th Ave. to well past Kipling, and then cut south into the Federal Center, then following 6th Ave. roughly until the end-line at the Jeffco Government Center.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[glowrock]

i don't think we should start panicing based on what the RMN says. They are going to pan fastracks until opening day and will exagerate every single change into program ending catastrophies, and won't be happy until every man woman and child is alone in a hummer on 12 lane roads all over the metro area.

Go Caldara, Go! :haha:

For the record though, Kevin Flynn is pretty level-headed on all manner of transportation/transit issues. While the RMN editorial staff is terribly biased against any sort of rail, Flynn himself has done a pretty admirable job in advocating FasTracks.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[wong21fr]

i don't think we should start panicing based on what the RMN says. They are going to pan fastracks until opening day and will exagerate every single change into program ending catastrophies, and won't be happy until every man woman and child is alone in a hummer on 12 lane roads all over the metro area.

While the RMN may be anti-rail, Flynn is pretty level headed, so while what he writes should be taken with a grain of salt there are also some good points made. FasTracks will continue to morph till the last rail tie is placed, though hopefully we'll see a firm transit platform for each of the lines this year. My biggest worry is the prospect of eliminating the smaller stations to save costs, this is one idea I don't support at all. Maybe (a big maybe) this could be done if the infastructure/foundation for the stations were built and could be finished at a future date, but I doubt it.

Bunt, thanks for the information, I wasn't quite sure how the funding mechanism for FasTracks worked, obviously it's a set borrowing limit, right?

[Giovoni]

I don't really change how I feel in one newspapers verses another... RMN has the same editors no matter who writes the stories and the same people (who are NOT the articles writers) write the headlines and obviously frame the article in the way that they want. The way I read both papers is this.. if the RMN says something favorable about fastracks.. it's newsworthy.. if the Post says something negative about it that's also newsworthy. Anything else is just space taken up between their respective advertising dollars.

[bunt_q]

Bunt, thanks for the information, I wasn't quite sure how the funding mechanism for FasTracks worked, obviously it's a set borrowing limit, right?

Only because of TABOR... we authorized RTD to borrow $4.7 billion (if that's the right number) in the ballot language. Any additional long-term debt would hit the same TABOR block without a vote... grrr.

[J Church]

Remember when the Post led the charge against Lincoln/Broadway rail?

Kevin Flynn is the only writer in either paper who really seems to understand public transportation.

[wong21fr]

^One of the dumbest moves in our fledgling transit history.

[J Church]

What, building it or not?

[glowrock]

^One of the dumbest moves in our fledgling transit history.

Agreed, wong. Not building the connector from Broadway/I-25 to Civic Center Station was one of the dumbest moves in our young (current) transit history.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[wong21fr]

What, building it or not?

Not building it.

[bcp]

^ as will be removing the LRT service north of 20th street....

with those two, we would have a handful of better "throughline" optoins and a regional system on par with DC

[joeindt]

Grrrr! Not having a throughline keeps me from taking the train to work!

[wong21fr]

Hey, a streetcar and BRT are perfectly acceptable substitutes to a cohesive LRT line!

[glowrock]

Grrrr! Not having a throughline keeps me from taking the train to work!

Ahh, I have a tear in my eye for you right now, Joe! ;) Do you mean to tell me that one transfer, maybe a 5-10 minute wait at the longest, keeps you from taking the train?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[joeindt]

Ya, 15 mins actually (nearly the entire length of my auto commute) or about 33% of the rail commute. It's kind of a joke that they planned the connections that badly. Thanks for your concern.

Ahh, I have a tear in my eye for you right now, Joe! ;) Do you mean to tell me that one transfer, maybe a 5-10 minute wait at the longest, keeps you from taking the train?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[SnyderBock]

I didn't correct the error with the West Line, Aaron. I also just guesed as to where all the stations should be. I put this together in only a few minutes and it's just to show some basic ideas I have for this. What I did here, was add more streetcar extenstions/lines. Would something like this work well in your city? I know, I'm a transit nut! :koko:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n6/warrengfunk7/DenverFasTracks2.jpg

[bunt_q]

*Where* and *when* pray tell would you have a 15 minute transfer? I don't buy it. Let's post the RTD schedules...

[bunt_q]

Rail on 285/hampden across cherry hills village? that's the lowest density area in the entire metropolitan area! i know the connection looks good on a map, but come on, RTD can barely support local bus routes through there!

[joeindt]

didn't see that one coming. :haha:

edit: 12 min wait, not 15.. still long enough to push it out of reach.

[glowrock]

*Where* and *when* pray tell would you have a 15 minute transfer? I don't buy it. Let's post the RTD schedules...

I'm with you here, Brent. Methinks Joe's just in a bad mood... Did someone piss in his coffee this morning? :)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[wong21fr]

Meh, if you had coffee like I'm drinking, you'd *wish* that someone had pissed in it!

[joeindt]

^ ew.. and why are you still drinking it?

I'm with you here, Brent. Methinks Joe's just in a bad mood... Did someone piss in his coffee this morning? :)

Aaron (Glowrock)

No Aaron just making a comment about how basic scheduling could possibly influence more drivers to take the train.

[wong21fr]

Caffeine, caffeine, caffeine.

[glowrock]

The problem with scheduling is that no matter how convenient you make it for some commuters, others are invariably going to face longer waits. You can't make shorter transfer times for some commuters without making them longer for others. It all depends on your route, the time of day, etc... etc...

Then again, maybe I'm just lucky, as my transfer at the I-25/Broadway station is only a few minutes maximum between the time I get off my 6X bus from Cold Spring PnR and the time I get on the SE Corridor to Arapahoe Station... ;)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Giovoni]

A REAL live commuter doesn't like doing unecessary transfers? that's shocking.. shocking I tell you! Mass transit is competitive with autos BECAUSE you get to transfer.. maybe get a better seat.. maybe the people around you will be more friendly... maybe you get to cross two busy streets and have the opportunity to look at lots of nice shiny buildings on the way to your next train. Come on Joe quit acting spoiled and get on board, and then off, and then on board again.. then off.. then walk then get on board.

[joeindt]

^Yes, I have been acting like a spoiled child. Damn it, public transit should be a long and honorable journey of self sacrifice and discovery.

And I should be happy to drink bad coffee too, one which urine would help its flavor... yes.. yes.. its all clear now.

[bunt_q]

Oh wah wah... transit is never going to take less time than an auto, door to door. Sorry, but it won't, not in the west... And frankly, I am not interested in picking up riders who complain about 12 minutes if getting them will cost $50 million more. Take the damn newspaper with you and relax? 12 minutes... christ... pour yourself a good cup of coffee in your nice travel mug, put a coat on, and go get some exercise in the morning, time to wake up, and not have to listen to bad AM talk radio. If being faster is all that transit is about, we may as well fold RTD up now.

[J Church]

Sunshine, lollipops, and
Rainbows everywhere ...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000GPEW0I.01-AJQBFGSAOLTLT._SCMZZZZZZZ_V64926799_.jpg

[glowrock]

A REAL live commuter doesn't like doing unecessary transfers? that's shocking.. shocking I tell you! Mass transit is competitive with autos BECAUSE you get to transfer.. maybe get a better seat.. maybe the people around you will be more friendly... maybe you get to cross two busy streets and have the opportunity to look at lots of nice shiny buildings on the way to your next train. Come on Joe quit acting spoiled and get on board, and then off, and then on board again.. then off.. then walk then get on board.

:tantrum:

Do you feel better now, Gio? :)

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Giovoni]

I always feel better when I wax sarcastic... don't you know that?

[Giovoni]

Seriously though.. who do you think represents the public more like it or not? Those that DO self sacrafice for the good of the city and take transit because it's 'cool' or 'sexy' or because they are uber urban geeks like you, bunt, me, etc... or those that really do see their time as precious (can't imagine why) and don't like that they have to see other people drive by on their way to work while they stand out in the cold (and remember thanks to the city and USP that's what they'll be doing.. standing out in the cold). Top that off but when they ask why they have to wait they are treated as whiny, greedy, rat race obsessed boobs who "just don't get it." I think Joe is way more of the typical person that RTD has to win over.

[joeindt]

Oh gee, sorry I have an opinion.. and sorry 40-45 mins is my threshold for a 20 min car ride, instead of a 55-60 min trip on transit.

You should be happy to pick up those riders who complain, because otherwise you don't improve your system. People have accepted substandard transit for too long.

I don't read the paper because its full of status quo bullshit, why buy it when I can get it dished up from you personally?

RTD doesn't allow drinks on trains and buses, try it at your own risk.

I do work out in the morning as a matter of fact, but could cardio entails at least 30 mins of highly rigorous exercise, I suppose you think I should walk a mile to 25th and welton. Would that be ample self-sacrifice for you?

AM radio has alot to offer in denver..

Nobody crying here but you grandpa. :yes:

edit: and how is routing and scheduling the same as $50M? That's odd.

Oh wah wah... transit is never going to take less time than an auto, door to door. Sorry, but it won't, not in the west... And frankly, I am not interested in picking up riders who complain about 12 minutes if getting them will cost $50 million more. Take the damn newspaper with you and relax? 12 minutes... christ... pour yourself a good cup of coffee in your nice travel mug, put a coat on, and go get some exercise in the morning, time to wake up, and not have to listen to bad AM talk radio. If being faster is all that transit is about, we may as well fold RTD up now.

[bunt_q]

Oh gee, sorry I have an opinion.. and sorry 40-45 mins is my threshold for a 20 min car ride, instead of a 55-60 min trip on transit.

You should be happy to pick up those riders who complain, because otherwise you don't improve your system. People have accepted substandard transit for too long.

I don't read the paper because its full of status quo bullshit, why buy it when I can get it dished up from you personally?

RTD doesn't allow drinks on trains and buses, try it at your own risk.


Nobody's ever said a word to me about drinks.

And we are always going to have substandard transit... there is no winning over the vast majority of western commuters (who, yes, are like Joe)... simple fact. We're not built for it. That's okay too in my mind... I view transit as a mode for a narrow niche market... maybe 20-30% in specific corridors on specific transit routes... intended to chop a bit of the peak of of peak hour travel times. That's it, nothing more. And nothing we do (through lines or whatever) is going to change that number by more than a percent are two. Accept it. If you want something more walker friendly, you need to move someplace older.

As for Gio's quesiton... who represents "normal"... both I would say. 50,000 or so people in the T-Rex corridor sacrifice a little time to not drive (be they geeks or whatever)... because very few people are actually having their commutes reduced door-to-door... very few people anywhere in America do. But that's also okay, and RTD knows it... Nobody seriously thinks RTD's goal is to substantially increase its market share. It's not a business (and if it was, it would fail)... RTD is doing exactly what it means to... providing the best service it can for a select few choice riders, and then doing the rest for the transit-dependent. Is that so terrible? We are never going to be London (nor are we trying to be). We are doing very well at exactly what we mean to - limited commuter and special event travel. Look, I don't mean to sound like Wendell Cox here... but what are we going for? There are cost-benefits here, and a lot of our ideas (like through lines from Five Points) are justly ignored if you ask me.

So yeah, in sum - no, I don't care that you drive instead of take the train. Now would I support any of the changes that you have suggested that *might* make you switch. We are built for downtown commuters, and that's not you.

[1Post2]

In the end, though, it all comes down to the simple fact that the built environment reflects its transportation system. If you build highways and arterials, you’re gonna get a car city, and if you build trains, you’re gonna get a *ahem* real city. The built environment, however, just takes many decades to reflect those changes. That’s why people like John Caldera piss us all off, since they keep talking about the inefficiency of trains in auto-oriented environments, while completely ignoring the fact that it took 50 years of highway building to make Denver look like this. Certainly Denver, much less the suburbs, is never going to be like London, but if we put in a rail system and stop living under that paradigm that traffic engineering is about moving as many cars around as possible, we won’t be able to help moving in that direction over the long term.

[bunt_q]

In the end, though, it all comes down to the simple fact that the built environment reflects its transportation system. If you build highways and arterials, you’re gonna get a car city, and if you build trains, you’re gonna get a *ahem* real city. The built environment, however, just takes many decades to reflect those changes. That’s why people like John Caldera piss us all off, since they keep talking about the inefficiency of trains in auto-oriented environments, while completely ignoring the fact that it took 50 years of highway building to make Denver look like this. Certainly Denver, much less the suburbs, is never going to be like London, but if we put in a rail system and stop living under that paradigm that traffic engineering is about moving as many cars around as possible, we won’t be able to help moving in that direction over the long term.


Granted, we all know that, but for the most part it's too late for anything within 30 miles of Denver's core. You are not going to see massive reconstruction of existing suburbs, and TODs are a drop in the bucket and not about to revolcutionize the way most Americans live. They are good for the transit, but statistically they are insignificant. I have subdivisions float through here every week that are putting more units out there than all of the TODs we have proposed combined. There are developments out there that already have vested rights to build for another 20 years (and build tens of thousands on homes more than the TODs)... so yes, transportation affects built environment. But you cannot change the built environment in any drastic way by changing the transportation - it's not a two-way street and there are dozens of case studies to prove it. The anti-transit lobby is right about that much at least.

[bcp]

there's certainly cases proving things in the other direction buntie....

have you been to DC lately? the VERY auto-oriented suburbs in VA and MD have become 8-story dense enclaves built along the metro lines and it's making a real difference in those areas.

denver is not as behind as we might think...remember that in the 5-mile ring of downtown (old denver) there was once 300 miles of street-car....so the model has worked here in the past, and we have the grid, possible density and neighborhood commercial nodes that could once again support an uber-urban system that connects to Fastracks.

[bunt_q]

there's certainly cases proving things in the other direction buntie....

have you been to DC lately? the VERY auto-oriented suburbs in VA and MD have become 8-story dense enclaves built along the metro lines and it's making a real difference in those areas.

denver is not as behind as we might think...remember that in the 5-mile ring of downtown (old denver) there was once 300 miles of street-car....so the model has worked here in the past, and we have the grid, possible density and neighborhood commercial nodes that could once again support an uber-urban system that connects to Fastracks.

DC i doing well, yes... but tell me what percentage of new homes built in the DC metro area are TODs? I admit, they are good for transit... but insignificant overall. We have TODs planned at nearly every station, but what does it amount to? I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing them.... but if you think it is going to transform the entire land use pattern of the metropolitan area you've got another thing coming.

Unless you plan on rebuilding 300 miles of streetcars, that's a bygone era (even if you could fund it, you'd never convince most people along the old streetcar route to allow them back in the neighborhood today. that era is lost and is not coming back). We now have 1 station in the Wash Park neighborhood instead of multiple lines with multiple stops... with that setup our inner neighborhoods do not have anywhere near the density to make a difference. How many people can walk to the Louisianca station compared to a trolley stop back in the day? Wash Park isn't much more dense than most of the crap we build out yonder, though the grid helps. Apart from the very core of the city, we are still hopelessly car oriented. How many people in the Denver metro live within 1/2 mile of a rail stop today? How many post Fastracks? How many, if every TOD gets built at max planned density? Now look at each as a percentage of the total metro population? The numbers are humbling.

Find me a single case study showing rail transportation shaping metropolitan land use patterns post-WWII. Showing real appreciable change. You *will not* find one... Like it or not, DC metro continues to decentralize, albeit more slowly.

I am not saying we shouldn't be pursuing rail transit - only that we have to accept it for what it is and the role it will actually play in our cities, today and in the future. Because really, both the pro-transit and anti-transit lobbies are right. We are using the same set of statistics, only the denominator changes.

My biggest reason for supporting transit today? It's a direct downtown subsidy. The only thing it's good for is getting people into and out of the city (with free parking on the periphery)... that's good for the city, and with any luck, good for our office market too. More jobs, more people, more density... all because we can pump more suburbanites into the core to spend their money and such. I'm ok with that... but as for becoming a transit-oriented city. Not yet, probably not ever.

[glowrock]

Not budget trouble, but it does seem like RTD and UPRR are getting close to an agreement concerning the rails issue... This could bode very well for FasTracks' future...

Aaron (Glowrock)

-----------------------------------------------

denver & the west
RTD to pay Union Pacific to move rails for FasTracks
By frey Leib
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 01/16/2007 11:08:46 PM MST

In a move that advances prospects for train service to Denver International Airport and other FasTracks projects, the Regional Transportation District plans to pay up to $40 million for the Union Pacific Railroad to relocate key freight rail facilities and track. RTD directors will vote on the spending request Tuesday.

RTD plans to build the east-corridor train from Union Station to DIA and the north metro rail line to north Adams County as part of the $4.7 billion FasTracks program.

To construct the rail lines and build a commuter rail maintenance center, RTD needs to acquire two major Union Pacific facilities in Denver near the junction of Brighton Boulevard and East 40th Avenue.

RTD will pay about $10 million for UP to design and engineer the relocation of the rail yards and track, and another $30 million for the railroad to acquire property for its relocated facilities, said Liz Rao, RTD's planning chief.

UP spokeswoman Kathryn Blackwell called the agreement an important step forward in long and complex negotiations over RTD's request to operate commuter trains in UP's freight corridors.

The parties still must negotiate the final cost of RTD acquiring access to UP's corridors.

------------------------------------------------

[joeindt]

brent, no one said a word to you about drinks because they were worried you'd crab them out in your best old man impression. :)

I also thought it's pretty clearcut.. I go to work early so I miss tons of traffic. I'd rather not add 1hr20min to my daily commute, easy enough to grasp, right? So in 5 years from now when i-25 is gridlock again, I'll probably take the train because it'll only be 50% or less than drive. You understand that right.. its not like quantum physics or anything.. but a quantum physic law says that change does not always have to come with an explanation.. and the belief that RTD will see how an inner city area like 5-points is not a remote suburban location will soon reschedule their trains to provide a direct route. It's clearly one of those fuckups rtd makes.

Any substandard transit only became the norm when only drunks, poor people, and old people used transit for about 50 years in most cities. I would suspect that if it didn't go into disrepair we would now see bus systems with universal transit cards, low floor buses (the norm), and bus routes and stops planned in more of a cohesive manner rather than catering to grandma who has all the time in the world. I'm not a transit planner, but I would imagine we would have to be more evolved.

[joeindt]

there's certainly cases proving things in the other direction buntie....

have you been to DC lately? the VERY auto-oriented suburbs in VA and MD have become 8-story dense enclaves built along the metro lines and it's making a real difference in those areas.

denver is not as behind as we might think...remember that in the 5-mile ring of downtown (old denver) there was once 300 miles of street-car....so the model has worked here in the past, and we have the grid, possible density and neighborhood commercial nodes that could once again support an uber-urban system that connects to Fastracks.

I actually had the same impression from my visit there a few years ago.

[glowrock]

brent, no one said a word to you about drinks because they were worried you'd crab them out in your best old man impression. :)

I also thought it's pretty clearcut.. I go to work early so I miss tons of traffic. I'd rather not add 1hr20min to my daily commute, easy enough to grasp, right? So in 5 years from now when i-25 is gridlock again, I'll probably take the train because it'll only be 50% or less than drive. You understand that right.. its not like quantum physics or anything.. but a quantum physic law says that change does not always have to come with an explanation.. and the belief that RTD will see how an inner city area like 5-points is not a remote suburban location will soon reschedule their trains to provide a direct route. It's clearly one of those fuckups rtd makes.

Any substandard transit only became the norm when only drunks, poor people, and old people used transit for about 50 years in most cities. I would suspect that if it didn't go into disrepair we would now see bus systems with universal transit cards, low floor buses (the norm), and bus routes and stops planned in more of a cohesive manner rather than catering to grandma who has all the time in the world. I'm not a transit planner, but I would imagine we would have to be more evolved.

Joe,

I happen to also go to work very early in the morning (I usually am at the office by 6am), so I know that the freeways are wide open during that time, even on I-25 from 6th Ave. to Arapahoe! :) So yes, I understand completely about transit taking substantially longer than driving when the freeways aren't congested. However, during the afternoon commute, things can be entirely different... ;)

Anyhow, I do think you and Brent both have good points, but realistically, even POST-FASTRACKS, I don't see metro Denver's building patterns changing too dramatically.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[1Post2]

^ it would take a hell of a lot more than fastracks to create anything besides ribbons of density along the suburban corridors. the metro area doesn't have the population to transform all the suburbs anyway. the real goal is to put transit back on the transportation radar, especially in central denver. who says we can't return someday to hundreds of miles of streetcar tracks? cities across america less progressive than ours are at least considering rebuilding certain streetcar lines, and that's a huge first step.

we're building trains in the suburbs now due to our current reality and out of political necessity, but the suburbs themselves don't stand to gain as much as the city. RTD is becoming a transportation behemoth, able to butt heads with CDOT over transportation issues, and the general attitude towards transit is changing among general public, which goes a long, long way.

[pablosan]

Denver is positioning itself as a city of the future. However, that said, the metro area is very car dependant. I don't see this changing. What I do see in the future is mainstreet zoning. I look at the sucess of Belmar and I see other similar projects being embraced in the suburbs. Although this doesn't eliminate the dependancy on the car, it helps change a segment of the population's attitudes towards accepting increased density.

Many suburbanites still have to travel by car just to get to the stations. This won't change either.

[twellsie]

I've been living in downtown Denver so long now that when I drive out to Westminster for Best Buy I am always shocked at how many lanes and how many cars are cruising along the big roads there. I can't help but think: where are all these people living? Sprawl is alive and well in Denver.

[pablosan]

Unfortunately, true Twellsie.

[glowrock]

I've been living in downtown Denver so long now that when I drive out to Westminster for Best Buy I am always shocked at how many lanes and how many cars are cruising along the big roads there. I can't help but think: where are all these people living? Sprawl is alive and well in Denver.

Not to mention, Sheridan Blvd. goes all the way from now north of 120th down to south of Hampden, so it's a hell of a major regional arterial as well, twellsie... ;) Though I think the section of Sheridan from roughly 88th Ave. to about 96th Ave. is definitely the worst in terms of traffic, though...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[1Post2]

We have to distinguish a few things here:

Central Denver This is the 5 mile radius around Downtown that was built around streetcars. We’ve put in a few viaducts, added sixty five thousand parking spaces downtown, changed some of the roads into commuter arterials (think broadway), and even planted some large interstates, but the area was still built around the streetcar. We can’t remove the highways, but we’re doing some things to reintegrate neighborhoods, like the highlands bridge. More like this can easily happen. Also, reverse some of the changes we’ve made (parking requirements, one-way streets, narrowed sidewalks, lack of streetscape), and rebuild the transit network once there’s political will. The rest follows.

Fastracks corridors These are the big suburban corridors that don’t necessarily follow a single street, and will be characterized by park ‘n’ rides and TODs. Around stations, compact, walkable neighborhoods and employment centers form, but the surrounding suburbia remains.

Main street corridors These generally will be in the Central Denver area, but are different because they can be on the periphery or extend beyond it. This includes streets like Colfax, Broadway, Federal, and others that are already urban in the sense that they have a strong neighborhood presence and population density surrounding them, but have become auto-oriented in nature. Streetscape improvements, proper zoning (we’re doing that now!), and traffic calming measures are the initial steps to take, and installing or re-installing streetcar networks later on eliminates auto-dependency.

All the rest The automobile dominates. If I were building a subdivision or a retail center out by the beltway, I’d put in wide roads and plenty of parking, too. These built environments aren’t going to change much in the future, because people move around in them almost solely by car, and there’s nothing being done to change that, nor would I expect there to be. The best option here is just to quit pouring billions into road expansion projects. Once that happens, people will realize it's not actually market forces that drive this sort of development.

[pablosan]

^
Agreed. The fact that so much money goes into interstate and road expansion definately drives the market (and sprawl). Twenty-five years from now, I bet there will be another beltway north, east and south of E-470.

[twellsie]

I like how the surburbs have nice new roads, but when I drive down Broadway my car feels like it is falling apart. I've lived here for 2 1/2 years and for that entire time I've bitched and bitched about the condition of Broadway from downtown to Englewood. Since the storms I can't even count how many potholes I've driven through on roads that I previously thought were decent. Compared to other places I've lived, especially California, there are definitely more car repair and maintenance costs here. This has really encouraged me to use mass transit. I'm definitely selling my car as soon as I can live without it. Is TABOR the reason why we can't get roads in decent condition around here?

[glowrock]

No, it's actually the weather, twellsie... California doesn't deal with the harsh weather the last time I checked! :)

You want to see huge potholes? Try a New England winter, along with the spring thaw! Potholes you could practically drive INTO!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[blm3034L!fe]

I've been living in downtown Denver so long now that when I drive out to Westminster for Best Buy I am always shocked at how many lanes and how many cars are cruising along the big roads there. I can't help but think: where are all these people living? Sprawl is alive and well in Denver.

Sprawl is very much alive in this City I was Car-pooling into work 2 weeks ago and I-25 was to jacked up so we drove 120th East and made our way out through Commerce City/Brighton and OMG. We drove past a devlopment named Reunion! And that streached for at least 3Miles non stop, maybe 4? The same Development! It was Crazy. I never realized the Metro area was pushing out so far and wide. And the other thing I noticed the homes and condos were priced at about 50K/100K lower than the rest of the metro market. Most likely because your back yard would be DIA! :haha:

[pablosan]

I like how the surburbs have nice new roads, but when I drive down Broadway my car feels like it is falling apart. I've lived here for 2 1/2 years and for that entire time I've bitched and bitched about the condition of Broadway from downtown to Englewood. Since the storms I can't even count how many potholes I've driven through on roads that I previously thought were decent. Compared to other places I've lived, especially California, there are definitely more car repair and maintenance costs here. This has really encouraged me to use mass transit. I'm definitely selling my car as soon as I can live without it. Is TABOR the reason why we can't get roads in decent condition around here?

You think Broadway is bad, you should try driving down Federal Blvd. You would think you were 4-Wheeling in Moab. Oh and this was before the storms.

[glowrock]

Speaking of FasTracks, I found this article to be quite interesting. Seems like RTD's looking for people to be nominated to its "Citizen Academy", people who will really end up becoming involved in the planning of TOD's and other such things along the rail lines, as well as dealing with the various aspects of transportation planning. This sounds like it's right up some of our alleys, so to speak... I for one know I'm definitely interested!

Aaron (Glowrock)

-------------------------------------------

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susan thornton | columnist
A citizens academy for transit
By Susan Thornton
Denver Post Staff Columnist
Article Last Updated: 01/17/2007 07:16:09 PM MST

The metro area is a "national laboratory" for transit.

That's the official word from the Transit Alliance, a nonprofit coalition of 40 businesses, local governments and organizations. The coalition was instrumental in helping to pass FasTracks in November 2004, raising funds and organizing speakers, mailings and grassroots efforts to educate voters about the 12-year, $4.7 billion plan to build 137 miles of transit across the metro area.

Now, with both the southwest and southeast light rail lines carrying record numbers of passengers, the alliance has turned its attention to educating citizens about the remaining lines and how to turn the 75-plus transit stations and areas around them into "people-oriented places."

According to Kathleen Osher, executive director of the alliance, people-oriented places are locations where people feel safe, where there is food, shopping, art and music, and where people want to just "come and hang out." Such places occur, she says, when the "four Ds" - design, density, diversity and distance - encourage a sense of belonging.

Osher adds, "We need to get people to understand the long-term implications of the developments that will come around transit stations. We need an army of people with educated, open minds" about transit-oriented development.

To build that "army," the alliance is planning a Citizen Academy, modeled after those used by police departments across the nation to explain policing issues.

Up to 30 participants in the academy will meet one evening a week for seven weeks. Each meeting will include a dinner, followed by speakers representing the perspectives of land planners, business leaders, home builders, Realtors and others. Discussions will span a wide range of topics, from how transit stations and stops can be integrated into existing neighborhoods to how the changing demographics of the metro area - increasing numbers of older people, and immigrants, who are used to using public transit - are fueling the desire for more transportation choices. Participants will focus on what great people-oriented places look and feel like, and how residents of the metro area can positively affect the change that is coming so quickly.

FasTracks is due to be completed within 10 years, Osher points out. "Environmental studies are underway and major decisions are being made right now," she says. "We want people to explore how we can make the most of this opportunity."

Graduates of the Citizen Academy are expected to become active participants in planning for multimodal transportation options. Osher says that change of the scope that is coming with the build-out of FasTracks is "always affected by emotion," so additional topics of the academy will include active listening and conflict-management skills.

In addition, the debate about transit is often complicated by a "battle of semantics," Osher states. As a result, participants will also learn a "common language" about transit, such as the meaning of "transit-oriented development" and "density." What is dense to someone living in rural Colorado is likely very different from what density is to someone living on Capitol Hill, for example.

Participants in the academy will form teams based on common interests. They will be expected to complete homework assignments and develop action plans specific to a transit station in their neighborhood or to metro-wide goals, such as making pedestrian and bicycle access a priority at all transit stops. Eventually, Osher expects that they will become part of an "alumni network," participating in planning for individual corridors, helping to educate others, and nominating interested community members for future academies.

As difficult as the FasTracks election campaign was, it may have been the easy part. The sheer magnitude of building out so many stations and stops requires input from residents who are educated about the complex issues involved. In Madison and Seattle, where planning for transit is also underway, community leaders are struggling to engage people in the process. With its Citizen Academy, Transit Alliance is taking important steps to ensure that is not the case here.

Nominations are now being accepted for participants in the first Transit Alliance Citizen Academy, which will begin Feb. 28. For more information, go to www.TransitAlliance.org or call Osher at 720-596-9962.

Susan Thornton (smthornton@ aol.com) served 16 years on the Littleton City Council, including eight years as mayor. She writes on suburban issues on alternate Thursdays.
----------------------------------------------------------

[EngiNerd]

Sprawl is very much alive in this City I was Car-pooling into work 2 weeks ago and I-25 was to jacked up so we drove 120th East and made our way out through Commerce City/Brighton and OMG. We drove past a devlopment named Reunion! And that streached for at least 3Miles non stop, maybe 4? The same Development! It was Crazy. I never realized the Metro area was pushing out so far and wide. And the other thing I noticed the homes and condos were priced at about 50K/100K lower than the rest of the metro market. Most likely because your back yard would be DIA! :haha:

And your mailing address would be Commerce City :yuck: , that knocks off like 50k right there. If you really wanted to be amazed at the sprawl you should drive to where I used to live in SE Aurora (around Smoky Hill & E-470) That area is completely blowing up with housing. Its even starting to extend into Elbert County now. Can't say I made a bad choice living there though because I made 100k profit on the house in 2 years.

[twellsie]

As mentioned above:

Anybody here interested in being nominated for the Transit Academy?

http://www.transitalliance.org/Academy/nominations.htm

I definitely think we should get as many people on this board nominated as possible. I'd be interested myself if I wasn't going to be out of town for two of those nights. I'm happy to nominate though!

[bcp]

regarding transportation in Denver / CO in general....official, good news for the as of yet unfilled appointment by Gov. Ritter:

Transportation
Ritter pick: Unfilled.

Replacing: Tom Norton said he will take a few months off before starting a consulting business that could work with road builders in other states.


Good riddance....Steve you should consider the job.

[glowrock]

As mentioned above:

Anybody here interested in being nominated for the Transit Academy?

http://www.transitalliance.org/Academy/nominations.htm

I definitely think we should get as many people on this board nominated as possible. I'd be interested myself if I wasn't going to be out of town for two of those nights. I'm happy to nominate though!

I'm game, if anyone wants to nominate me!

Yes, I'm being serious. I'd say Bryan would be a great choice here, along with wong... Perhaps good ol' Junkie, too! And how can I forget good ol' Ken??? Haha

Aaron (Glowrock)

[InfillJunkie]

Not me, I'm not as adept at transit issues as you guys are.

[Agent Orange]

Good riddance....Steve you should consider the job.

Haha, I do remember Steve saying he would move to Denver for the right job...

[bunt_q]

Not me, I'm not as adept at transit issues as you guys are.


They don't want transit adept people I don't think... they want to educate people, no? Not to sound like too much of a prick, and I wish them all the success in the world - this is a great idea - but I am not sure how much they can teach a lot of us. I know Transit Alliance people... many of them are very, very transit saavy... but many are just well-meaning, concerned citizens, but not necessarily the most sophisticated bunch. Not to mention, I don't necessarily think they are going to give the most balanced info to their ambassadors. Kind of like talking to the Environment Colorado kids...

[bcp]

homework?

[bcp]

well......our buddy at CDOT is officially out....

but a Repub. from western slope is now in....

================
George gets CDOT nod
Ritter soothes critics on West Slope with choice of Rifle man

Russell George envisions "a significant learning curve at CDOT."STORY TOOLS
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By Ellen Miller, Special to the News
January 22, 2007
Russell George, Gov. Bill Ritter's freshly minted nominee to head up the Colorado Department of Transportation, was in his hometown of Rifle on Sunday morning and said he felt "like I've jumped off a cliff."
Once again, the much-honored former Republican legislator and department chief for former Gov. Bill Owens has been summoned for a stint in state government.

"He's one of the best public servants I know, and I'm glad Russ is coming back to public service after a one-week respite," Ritter said in announcing his CDOT pick in Rifle and Grand Junction on Saturday.

"I've been trying to persuade Russ for a long time," Ritter said. "He loves his family and he loves Rifle and he wants to stay there. But we kept pressuring Russ because it's such a big job."

George said he faces "a very difficult, full-study period and a significant learning curve" at CDOT.

"I'm familiar with it from the legislature, and I know how good of an organization it is," George said. "Transportation construction means huge dollars to build and maintain, and we can't get too far behind. The maintenance backlog across the state is enormous. The demand has grown much faster than the revenue resources."

George, 60, a lawyer by trade, was chosen by Owens in 2004 to run the Department of Natural Resources. There, he spearheaded legislative action to create roundtables for each of the state's major river basins and set them to work finding solutions to the state's water supply problems.

George and Ritter said they began talking about appointments about three weeks ago.

Ritter said George was "in the mix for DNR, but I wanted a fresh set of eyes, so then I took a look at Russ a few weeks ago for CDOT."

The governor insisted that naming George "was not a reaction to Club 20," a Western Slope lobbying group, which had criticized Ritter for not naming anyone from that region to his Cabinet.

"It took me a long time to convince Russ,'' Ritter told a cheering crowd of Mesa County Democrats in Clifton on Saturday night. "He finally said yesterday (Friday) that he'd do it."

Ritter campaigned on finding more revenue for transportation and said Saturday he will appoint a blue-ribbon commission to examine possible sources.

"We face a crisis," he said. "Funding from the Highway Users' Trust Fund is declining, the gas tax is declining, and highway and transit demands are up. We need a sustained mechanism, and the person I want to navigate it is Russ George of Rifle."

Reeves Brown, Club 20 executive director, had loudly criticized Ritter for leaving the Western Slope out of his Cabinet appointments. On Saturday, though, Brown was beaming.

"Gov. Ritter knows how to pick talent and create balance, and he doesn't need Reeves Brown to tell him how," the Club 20 chief said.

[glowrock]

Not sure what to think of this one, honestly. It's actually good that Ritter has appointed some Republicans to high-ranking posts, it should make things easier to get through the legislature overall. Cooperation is a good thing, as long as it doesn't end up diluting any real course of action into a watery mess, of course! :)

Does anyone here know a thing about this guy?

Aaron (Glowrock)

[joeindt]

If there is ever a statewide transit system, the western slope will have to be on board. There is certainly demand for alternatives out there, even along i-70. A fiscally, responsible republican is probably a good thing for many reasons.. one reason for sure.. western slope always fills like its dictated to by denver.

[joeindt]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2007/0130/20070130_105730_CD31_rtdgfx_300.jpg

Gold Line streetcars possible after rail snag
RTD whittles northwest options
By Jeffrey Leib
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 01/30/2007 10:57:38 PM MST


Transit planners have decided that a streetcar operating principally on streets in northwest Denver and Arvada would be the only affordable Gold Line transit alternative if RTD can't run commuter trains in a freight corridor.

The $463 million Gold Line is one of six new rail lines in the Regional Transportation District's $4.7 billion FasTracks expansion.

For months, planners have been whittling down nearly two dozen Gold Line alternatives.

When metro Denver voters approved the FasTracks tax increase in 2004, the expectation was that Gold Line trains would operate in Union Pacific and Burlington Northern Santa Fe freight corridors that run from Union Station to Golden.

Operating electric commuter trains on those tracks still is preferred by most residents in the Gold Line corridor, transit planner Don Ulrich told local government officials Tuesday. But the streetcar alternative must be preserved because RTD has yet to reach agreements with the freight railroads on the use of track, he added.

RTD officials say BNSF, in particular, has raised concerns about insurance liability if there is an accident while passenger trains are operating next to freight trains.

BNSF officials did not respond Tuesday to requests for an explanation of their concerns.

RTD's inability to reach agreement with BNSF helped push planners to consider running light-rail cars on neighborhood streets. But Ulrich said putting light-rail cars on West 38th Avenue and other streets would require taking up to 120 homes and 40 businesses. Light rail on neighborhood streets also would cost at least $100 million more than the freight-corridor or streetcar options.

A streetcar running on 38th, Harlan Street, Ralston Road and other local streets would cost about the same as electric commuter rail.

But ridership on the streetcar would be far less than commuter rail, and streetcar travel times

would be far slower, Ulrich said.
The Gold Line is scheduled for completion in 2015.

Public meetings to consider the final streetcar and commuter-rail options will be Monday at the Highlands Masonic Center, 3550 Federal Blvd. in Denver, and Feb. 7 at the Arvada Center, 6901 Wadsworth Blvd. in Arvada. Both meetings start at 6 p.m.

Staff writer Jeffrey Leib can be reached at 303-954-1645 or jleib@denverpost.com.

[bunt_q]

I'm not sure what to think... these are basically two completely sepaarate approaches, each with their own pluses and minuses... If we go the streetcar route, it will pretty much *only* be local serving, not for commuters... no way they'll be able to dump express buses from Arvada and replace them with this. On the other hand, it'd be great for 38th. Not sure this is the best place to do out "test" streetcar line...

[joeindt]

The streetcar with its own ROW and light signal management along 38th would probably have more impact and draw more passengers than they think. Looking at it again... probably not wide enough to have its own ROW, but it would be very cool if they could do it affordably... of course they could do away with the onstreet parking..
http://www.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=3800+federal,+denver+co&ie=UTF8&z=19&ll=39.76929,-105.026287&spn=0.00087,0.00265&t=h&om=1

Example with BRT
http://www.sfcta.org/Images/McAlliAlt5.JPG

[wong21fr]

I see another problem with the streetcar alternative, it may not prove pallateble to Arvada and Wheat Ridge since they would be losing out on the commuter system. This could blow up into a big political bruha.

While I want to see streetcars in Denver I don't think that they are a viable option for the FasTracks corridors since these corridors are intended to get commuters from the outlying suburbs downtown.

[glowrock]

I agree. A distinctly different streetcar network needs to be planned and built, separate from FasTracks. FasTracks is for commuters, streetcars are for the local trips, for the most part...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[bcp]

is this a big ploy just to "warm" people to the concept of streetcars coming back to denver's mainstreets?

[joeindt]

I like that conspiracy theory.

[wong21fr]

I think that's what the line up to 40th and 40th line is for, and to also piss you off, BCP.

I don't really see RTD looking to hard at streetcar for the Gold Line, it sounds more like the ubiquitous "Plan B" that was thrown together while everything and anything is done to get commuter rail.

[joeindt]

I don't know.. why does 'streetcar' keep appearing in print media. I mean they aren't saying 'brt' at every turn, they keep stating streetcar this, and streetcar that as the plan 'B'. I'm not privy to the conversations and plans, desires that probably exist. Having a street car line here and there within the city limits certainly would kill the need for the city to finance one on its own. It also seems with a commuter line to arvada, the necessity for having a streetcar line in addition to a commuter line also diminishes..., it isnt cost effective anymore. So in short, I don't think its so far fetched to denver doing what it can to make a streetcar line happen at least in a few locations.

[1Post2]

as has been said before, the legislature should step in and give some liability protection to the railroads if this is gonna stall negotiations otherwise.

[bunt_q]

as has been said before, the legislature should step in and give some liability protection to the railroads if this is gonna stall negotiations otherwise.


I'm not sure that's the best approach either. If there wasn't a legitimate threat of conflicts they wouldn't be afraid. And if there is a legitimate threat, I don't think taking away peoples' rights to be compensated for injuries is the way to go. They can't sue RTD either, so what's left? "Oh, sorry you got plowed, have a nice day."? If they can't do this safely enough that everybody is comfortable (without legislation), then they shouldn't do it at all.

[wong21fr]

Or is it just being unnessarily difficult? It's sounding like the railroads want complete immunity from being liable, but I don't really know.

[bunt_q]

I have no problem absolving the railroads of all liability, but if we do it, then the legislature needs to create a separate right of action - exempt from other statutory damages limits - for folks to sue RTD (we the taxpayers) instead.

[glowrock]

Brent, shouldn't this issue have been thought about BEFORE FasTracks was presented to the voters, in that case? If there really IS a legitimate issue here, RTD should have NEVER proposed running LRT along those freight lines (or near them, at least in similar ROW) without getting the railroads' blessings first.

Personally, I think the railroads are being extremely difficult, and are just looking for a complete absolvement of liability, even if a situation is completely their fault. :(

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Eliyah78]

It would make better sense to leave any street car plan to municipal planners since the cost is usually within easier reach of city funding. I agree with everyone else here, leave the Fastracks funding for heavy and light rail.

There was indeed a heavy presence of city reps pushing for the street car planat the last two East Corridor workgroup meetings. A few individuals opposed, mostly recent arrivals from the New York area, but not with enough numerical strength to counterweigh Denver's preferred alternative.

When I asked if the street car plan would be a joint effort between Denver and RTD the project team responded that the funding for the Central Corridor extension would come from Fastracks. But looking at the line map it is easy to see their future plans.

[Eliyah78]

Personally, I think the railroads are being extremely difficult, and are just looking for a complete absolvement of liability, even if a situation is completely their fault. :(

Aaron (Glowrock)

Very true, Aaron. Also they are likely playing the sales psychology. The railroads were the main financial sponsors of the Fastracks plan and as a result their real estate development subsidiary groups were placed first in line for consideration with the TOD planning.

[wong21fr]

It would make better sense to leave any street car plan to municipal planners since the cost is usually within easier reach of city funding. I agree with everyone else here, leave the Fastracks funding for heavy and light rail.

There was indeed a heavy presence of city reps pushing for the street car planat the last two East Corridor workgroup meetings. A few individuals opposed, mostly recent arrivals from the New York area, but not with enough numerical strength to counterweigh Denver's preferred alternative.

When I asked if the street car plan would be a joint effort between Denver and RTD the project team responded that the funding for the Central Corridor extension would come from Fastracks. But looking at the line map it is easy to see their future plans.

What is this about the East Corridor and streetcars? Now, that makes absolutely no sense unless you are talking about a seperate program from FasTracks.

As for your comments on the railroads and their motives, WTF, yo?

[bunt_q]

The railroads were the main financial sponsors of the Fastracks plan

Where one earth did you get that? RTD and the railroads are not exactly in bed together, I assure you.