[liferanger]

This thread is intended to generate discussion from persons outside of the Edmonton area that have come to visit in the last couple of years.

I would like to hear your opinion about the so called "boom" that is occurring in Edmonton.

More specifically, my idea of a boom is seeing massive new skyscrapers, highrises and generally cranes all over the landscape. For the last number of years, Edmonton has been in the so called boom, yet has not had one single commercial highrise built in 16 years in Downtown. Several residential buildings have been built but nothing of quality compared to Vancouver or Calgary.

Visitors, tell me your thoughts!!!!

[Greco Roman]

More specifically, my idea of a boom is seeing massive new skyscrapers, highrises and generally cranes all over the landscape. For the last number of years, Edmonton has been in the so called boom, yet has not had one single commercial highrise built in 16 years in Downtown.

Isn't this all about to change though? I've heard of several proposed high-rise condo's going to be built within the city and possibly downtown.

BTW, I've only been here 3 years, and am still getting to know what the hell is happening in E-town, so count me as an out-of-towner for the sake of this thread lol.

[Xelebes]

The boom has been in the industrial sector, not the commercial sector. Right now the office space is being re-filled. We are seeing some new retrofits and Oxford is glumly beginning to look at a new tower or something as their property is getting too crowded for renovations. Though right now it has been mostly in the industrial sector. There has been lots of new warehouses popping up in the NW Industrial. Five years ago, what would have been fields have been new distribution centres, factories and the sort. You have a lot of smaller companies like Landtran Logistics building these new warehouses so they don't have large offices yet.

Right now we're seeing those mom-and-pop companies go public so we might see something new. Or we might see more massive warehouses and factories in this city.

[goodlookin']

sad that you are so wrapped up in cranes and massive skyscrapers to see the amount of change going on around you - the downtown I saw 5 years ago was nothing like that I saw half a year ago

[CCF]

I haven't been to Edmonton in years. I drove past in 2003 on my way home from Yellowknife.

I'd like to get up there again soon.

[Kevin_foster]

Before discussion begins, everyone must pound this into their head:


Economic Boom != Skyscrapers.


What a horrible misconception, and we should all know better than that.

The amount of economic activity going on in and around this city is equal to Calgary's, take a look at both municipalities GDP. Edmonton is firing on all 12 cylinders.

To put it bluntly, alot of people believe a boom has to equal a (quoteth Murman) hard-on in the core. A Financial district is just one facet area of a city that can be affected by a boom. Here, so far alot has been been industrial. But things downtown are taking shape more and more every day.

[Edmonchuck]

Skyscrapers are only one part. Sunwapta is exploding, Windermere is exploding, Roper Road is exploding, the ERP is exploding, you name it, it is growing.

and yes, there will be at least one new tower, but remember that Edmonton's employment nodes are notoriously spread out, while Calgary made a decision to concentrate it downtown.

[big W]

sad that you are so wrapped up in cranes and massive skyscrapers to see the amount of change going on around you - the downtown I saw 5 years ago was nothing like that I saw half a year ago

I am in full agreement with you on this. Working downtown and being who stays after work you can tell the difference.

[Bassic Lab]

Skyscrapers are only one part. Sunwapta is exploding, Windermere is exploding, Roper Road is exploding, the ERP is exploding, you name it, it is growing.

and yes, there will be at least one new tower, but remember that Edmonton's employment nodes are notoriously spread out, while Calgary made a decision to concentrate it downtown.

I agree, expecting a commercial boom impacting downtown office construction in Edmonton might be foolish. That said, I'm some what curious as to why the city seems to be a couple years behind Calgary in developing a demand for condos in the core. So far it seems that for both quantity and quality Calgary is a bit a head. I can't figure out why that is the case and it makes me curious.

[SpongeG]

from what i know - a lot of the people working in oil are from elsewhere - my brother works in northern alberta but his homebase is here in BC - all the people he works with also do not call alberta home or plan to - most are from the maritimes or manitoba, saskatchewan - they get flown in and out every few weeks - so the money they make is spent elsewhere

but the spin off that oil creates would create residents and needs etc. but they aren't the high paying oil jobs necessarily

and from what we hear outside of Edmonton - through friends, media etc Calgary seems to be the main focus of everything

[MolsonExport]

Was there not--until recently-- a huge surplus of Office space in the CBD, from the 80's? Same thing happened in Montreal and Toronto.

[gatt]

i never been to Edmonton but two of my construction workers friends moved up there 6 months ago and have no intention of moving back.they said they have years of work ahead of them.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

1. If you want quality you need to exonerate Pemberton Homes, they have yet to fabricate a nice residential tower.

2. If you desire more residential high-rises you need a population that is prepared to give up the big house in the country and that want to live in a more compact urban environment.

3. Office tower construction just won't happen on the scale it is in Calgary. Calgary has become the alpha city in your province much as Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver are the alphas in their provinces.

[feepa]

Calgary is the city that makes and plays with the Oil money.

Edmonton is the manafactures and creates any thing that needs to go up to the oil sands. Edmonton has a vast sector of employees in the manafucturing and construction related trades. Theres also the huge refinining and processing sector as well. All these trades jobs make a decent living for a lot of folk around here, but its certainly not office jobs and such that keeps this city going.

[feepa]

3. Office tower construction just won't happen on the scale it is in Calgary. Calgary has become the alpha city in your province much as Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver are the alphas in their provinces.

Edmonton has alot going on for it. Anyone who tries to deny that is someone who has never tasted whats going on here. I'll agree that Calgary is the financial and HQ city in this province, but that doesnt make Edmonton any less of a city then Calgary.

Edmonton is just as important to the Alberta economy as Calgary. Just in a different way.

[ExcaliburKid]

Thought I would add my 2 cents to this thread. As most have mentioned, Edmontons boom is largely industrial, and to prove that point I'm going to fill you in on some information I heard while at an MCA meeting last Weds. The guest speaker we had was a gentleman who negotiates with unions. He said the number of construction workers in AB peaked last year at 184,000, the highest number in AB history. He also made a point with a graph showing the "major" projects upcoming in AB, some approved, most proposed. Imagine, if you will, the scale of projects happening now in oil sands, and increase that by about 50-65 BILLION $. The point I'm getting at, is that a large number of those projects are slated for Sturgeon, Strathcona Counties, Edmonton, and Ft. Sask. The reason for this, said the guest speaker (Ive forgotten his name), is because trades-people are getting sick of the commute, in and out of Ft. Mac, and the companies are hearing this, and building the upgraders here. Another quick point to end this long winded rant, is that, unless the immigration laws are relaxed, there will be some postponements, or potentially cancellations of these goliath projects. There is just not enough of a workforce, and unless something changes, we could see this boom go bust.

[big W]

Was there not--until recently-- a huge surplus of Office space in the CBD, from the 80's? Same thing happened in Montreal and Toronto.

Yes the CBD had an office vacancy at 23% and the retail was 37%, which are now down to 4% and 10% respectively.

[Coldrsx]

" That said, I'm some what curious as to why the city seems to be a couple years behind Calgary in developing a demand for condos in the core. So far it seems that for both quantity and quality Calgary is a bit a head. I can't figure out why that is the case and it makes me curious."

demand is there and in the end Edmonton will have a larger core residential population due to the lack of office towers on a relative basis. Hell ICON I and II are in the middle of the downtown core....calgary CANT do that. However, design and material use is far ahead in calgary.

[Pegger5]

What are the companies that will drive growth in the core? What non Government (crown) head offices are in Edmonton? The only large ones I know of in Edmonton are PCL, Katz Group (Rexall) and maybe Stantec.

My point is: What companies will drive growth in the core so people will want to live in downtown Edmonton? When you have head offices downtown you have those higher paying exec jobs and more of a demographic that likes to live downtown...
I think until more HQ's move downtown Edmonton you will not see substantial condo growth in the Edmonton core

Edmonton is booming, no argument, but directly as an industrial and retail supplier to the Oil Sands. Excellent opportuntiy for trades people of all trades.

[ExcaliburKid]

^Canadian Western Bank

[IntotheWest]

I noticed a lot of change in Edmonton since I last lived there in '99...and I go back at least once a year. The downtown has definitely changed (for the better), and is looking great. The level of retail expansion is amazing (I look forward to going to Edm to check out shops, places, that Calgary doesn't have - Abercrombie, Sketchers, Lacoste, Ruth's Chris...and that's just the chains). And the sporting events (I'll be back again for Alberta's only Champcar race, and possibly the U20 FIFA WorldCup event).

Edmonton is maturing every bit as much as Calgary in my opinion - just differently...any comparisons to growth, expansion, etc should be dropped now in this discussion - it's not what this thread is for.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

For the last number of years, Edmonton has been in the so called boom, yet has not had one single commercial highrise built in 16 years in Downtown. Several residential buildings have been built but nothing of quality compared to Vancouver or Calgary.


Actually, it's all this thread is about.

[Coldrsx]

What are the companies that will drive growth in the core? What non Government (crown) head offices are in Edmonton? The only large ones I know of in Edmonton are PCL, Katz Group (Rexall) and maybe Stantec.

My point is: What companies will drive growth in the core so people will want to live in downtown Edmonton? When you have head offices downtown you have those higher paying exec jobs and more of a demographic that likes to live downtown...
I think until more HQ's move downtown Edmonton you will not see substantial condo growth in the Edmonton core

Edmonton is booming, no argument, but directly as an industrial and retail supplier to the Oil Sands. Excellent opportuntiy for trades people of all trades.

you DO NOT need companies and office towers downtown to draw people to live, people live downtown for many other reasons...and Edmonton will IMO draw more people to live over the next 10-20 yrs than calgary due to excess land and more opportunity for condos in the core then cal.

[The Chemist]

you DO NOT need companies and office towers downtown to draw people to live, people live downtown for many other reasons...and Edmonton will IMO draw more people to live over the next 10-20 yrs than calgary due to excess land and more opportunity for condos in the core then cal.

Depends on how you define 'core'. If you include the Beltline, Victoria Park, and the East Village, I don't see how Calgary's core population could possibly be lower than Edmonton's in a decade. It's pretty obvious to me - Calgary's getting 40+ story condo towers proposed, while Edmonton is not. Bigger towers = more units = more downtown population.

[Coldrsx]

^sorry....and let me 1st say whats happening in the beltline of calgary is very very good in general and im jealous.

However i mean core of the core...say 5-10 blocks from the centre of the downtown.

[Pegger5]

,

[Pegger5]

you DO NOT need companies and office towers downtown to draw people to live, people live downtown for many other reasons...and Edmonton will IMO draw more people to live over the next 10-20 yrs than calgary due to excess land and more opportunity for condos in the core then cal.

Edmonton may not need new office towers but you want to fill the ones you have.

I could be wrong but Winnipeg which is really trying to attrack people to live downtown is giving huge tax breaks to companies to move from the burbs to downtown.. i.e MTS/Allstream, Manitoba Hydro, CTV regional office, New baseball stadium, MTS Centre, Red River College, Investors Group, Great West Life have all added or moved their main office to downtown in the last 3-4 years.
I am sure Winnipeggers can expand on all the companies that have moved into the core from the suburbs.. The main reason for this incentive is to get people working and living downtown. It is then a big circle. More people equals more retail, more restaurants, less crime... MORE FUN...

[Coldrsx]

^offices sure help...walk to work crowd, but Edmonton is now attracting people who dont work downtown, but want to walk to diner, pubs, symphony etc.....

we are over the "need to give out to get downtown" stage

[Rob D]

^sorry....and let me 1st say whats happening in the beltline of calgary is very very good in general and im jealous.

However i mean core of the core...say 5-10 blocks from the centre of the downtown.

I live in the Beltline area of Calgary and I am within 5 - 10 blocks from the centre of downtown (basically IMO being the Bankers Hall/TD Square/Scotia Centre cluster of office towers). Even Union Square, Chocolate, Colours, Gateway Midtown, etc. are within this 5-10 block area from the core.

As far as the downtown core goes, there is Princeton phase III, and the Anthem project on the old Greyhound site next to Eau Claire, the residential component in the Le Germain project, etc. I don't see Emonton's core population outstripping Calgary's anytime soon.

[Calgarian]

In Calgary more people who live downtown work downtown. It is as siple as that. Calgary's suburbs have endless room to develope, but the roads are already stretched to the limit. Living in the suburbs and working downtown is completely impractical, parking is among the most expensive in all of North America and the C-train is overcrowded. Edmonton doesn't have that kind of pressure driving the downtown population. You will see more Condos in the future, but nothing compared to what Calgary and Vancouver (which is booming almost as much) are seeing, and you are naive to beleive otherwise. Edmonton can still function with out a overcrowded core, your roads have traffic but Calgary is definately worse. Edmonton has a more balanced boom than Calgary whose is centralized.

[samne]

double

[samne]

Leave the office towers for Calgary. I dont know Alberta well enough but maybe Edmonton should focus on being the cultural and research capital of Alberta. I mean its the provincial capital so deserves all the galleries, museums, opera houses etc etc that come with it. Also, maybe a centre of R and D, considering all the ministries and large university.


Quebec City does very well with the same sort of formula.

[goodlookin']

can't believe some of the heights many of the condos are attaining in markets where there is no need

personally, I didn't care at all for the time I lived on the 37 floor eventhough the view was spectacular

neither do I care for how so many of these mega towers meet the street with docking and other necessary building infrastructure instead of retail and/or other street friendly uses

[brento79]

What are the companies that will drive growth in the core? What non Government (crown) head offices are in Edmonton? The only large ones I know of in Edmonton are PCL, Katz Group (Rexall) and maybe Stantec.

My point is: What companies will drive growth in the core so people will want to live in downtown Edmonton? When you have head offices downtown you have those higher paying exec jobs and more of a demographic that likes to live downtown...
I think until more HQ's move downtown Edmonton you will not see substantial condo growth in the Edmonton core

Edmonton is booming, no argument, but directly as an industrial and retail supplier to the Oil Sands. Excellent opportuntiy for trades people of all trades.

A few notes about this. First Edmonton is riding a boom provided by the oil development, but that overshadows the other booming industries. Look at companies in the tech and medical arenas. Matrikon is a good example of growing firms in Edmonton that are based not directly on Alberta's oil boom, but technology.

Working downtown and talking to colleagues at other companies I know that there companies as well as mine are desperate for office space. I believe Edmonton is just overlooked right now, and still hurt by the bust of the 80's . . . hopefully that changes in 2007. Then again, I don't mind Edmonton booming in areas other than oil and people not really noticing, gives us some time to really develop into a world player.

[The Chemist]

can't believe some of the heights many of the condos are attaining in markets where there is no need

personally, I didn't care at all for the time I lived on the 37 floor eventhough the view was spectacular

neither do I care for how so many of these mega towers meet the street with docking and other necessary building infrastructure instead of retail and/or other street friendly uses

How is there 'no need' for tall condo towers in Calgary? Land is expensive in the core, and it's not very plentiful - ergo, tall towers are fully justified. :koko:

I guess we should just build 4-storey wood framed condos in the 'burbs, right? After all, there's plenty of land out there. :rolleyes:

[Wooster]

^offices sure help...walk to work crowd, but Edmonton is now attracting people who dont work downtown, but want to walk to diner, pubs, symphony etc.....

we are over the "need to give out to get downtown" stage

The boom in Calgary's centre city residential population right now is largely based on proximity to work - second is the amenities. Of course, as population comes amenities follow. So lifestyle will be a growing factor as these things come.

If Edmonton is to grow downtown residential population dramatically, it is going to have to make some big things happen to improve the quality of life downtown. Parks, beautiful streets, more cultural venues and so on. It doesn't have the jumpstarter of a huge downtown workforce. It is going to have to be proactive in my opinion and make stuff happen.

[IntotheWest]

Calgary has had better downtown (or Beltline anyway) amenities for years - which has attracted people to live there long before the boom. Definitely, it was the working crowd that was drawn there originally, but I think the base of some good amenities has been largely the latest draw over the last 3-4 years.

As far as the tall condos is concerned, the other areas further out are also maturing...Bridges, Inglewood, Marda Loop/Garrison, etc...

[big W]

If Edmonton is to grow downtown residential population dramatically, it is going to have to make some big things happen to improve the quality of life downtown. Parks, beautiful streets, more cultural venues and so on. It doesn't have the jumpstarter of a huge downtown workforce. It is going to have to be proactive in my opinion and make stuff happen.

So you mean the redevelopment of Churchill Square, an art gallery that will double in size, 1,800 person theatre (for plays not a movie theatre which there is one downtown), a 2,000 person music hall with the largest concert organ in Canada, 250 million expansion of the Royal Alberta Museum. The arts are getting massively expanded right now and this will really go in a couple years when everything is done. The parks we have downtown are also being worked on and expanded. THe talk of a new downtown arena (hey the Oilers need a new rink and it will go downtown). The downtown work force has increased 20K in the last 4 years. These are things we are all overlooking. The core is set to burst as we have taken up all the excess space in the city. Remember with the vacancy we had downtown which at one point was over 20% and is now down to 4% along with retail dropping from 37% to 10% vacancy. Hotel occupancy was at 60% with nightly rate as low as $83.00 whiel now the nightly rates and occupancy rates are close where we will see new development. We would not see a new ofice tower go up with such excess space and rental rates which are basically for operating costs. However now that it is taken up and rental rates close to replacement cost we will see new space come. There has been 600K of office space that will come on the market within the next couple years already. While not enough is is a start and we will see something coming very soon now that all the excess has been taken off the market. There is no one who can walk downtown 5 years ago and walk downtown today and not say there is a large differance. Its there. While we may not have seen a new office tower go up yet there is development in the core and more to come.

[ExcaliburKid]

^ The amenities are coming, thats for sure. With the new Sobeys store going in on 104th and Jasper, that will certainly kick some life into Jasper Ave, since it will have great street front integration. Im of the opinion that this will certainly make other retailers look and say, "they took a chance, and its paying off, maybe we should invest in downtown?".

[Calgarian]

If the office vacancy rate is 4% i think you will probably see another tower downtown. What is the square fotage of all the buildings downtown?

[IntotheWest]

^ The amenities are coming, thats for sure. With the new Sobeys store going in on 104th and Jasper, that will certainly kick some life into Jasper Ave, since it will have great street front integration. Im of the opinion that this will certainly make other retailers look and say, "they took a chance, and its paying off, maybe we should invest in downtown?".

I could be wrong, but I thought when "Railtown" went in on Jasper, that would've helped kick-start livability downtown? I was moving to Calgary just as that was happening (and moved to downtown Calgary), but thought if I stayed in Edm, it may be worth moving downtown...I don't recall any other grocery store in the core at the time for one.

[ExcaliburKid]

IMO, Railtown is kind of a joke. Its a bunch of wood-framed 4 storeys, and stucco clad condos. Im not too familiar with the history of that area, but it seems very suburbanized to me, and doesnt fit downtown at all. Its the epitomy of downtowns shitty architecture, if you ask me, and the product of "lets build anything the developer submits, because we are hurting for some infill"

[feepa]

I could be wrong, but I thought when "Railtown" went in on Jasper, that would've helped kick-start livability downtown? I was moving to Calgary just as that was happening (and moved to downtown Calgary), but thought if I stayed in Edm, it may be worth moving downtown...I don't recall any other grocery store in the core at the time for one.

Within close walking distance to "railtown" or most of downtown/Oliver is Safeway on 104ave/116 street, Save-On Foods on 109st and 102 ave, and soon Sobeys on Jasper and 104st, and speculation behind a SuperStore near Stationlands or at stationlands.

I think too many people have given up on downtown Edmonton, and wont give it a second chance. Downtown Edmonton DIED in the early 90's, but its BACK! And its stronger then ever. Downtown Edmonton is once again, an exciting place to be, live and work, and its getting better all the time.
I used to live in Oliver, and I certainly miss it. I plan on moving back soon.

Anyone whos saying theres nothing going on in Edmonton is dead wrong, but certainly there should be, and will be alot more going on in the coming years.

[murman]

Downtown Edmonton DIED in the early 90's, but its BACK! And its stronger then ever.

Stronger than ever? How young are you?

[big W]

If the office vacancy rate is 4% i think you will probably see another tower downtown. What is the square fotage of all the buildings downtown?

As I stated there have been anouncements for 600K coming in the near future with 175K almost complete. 210K the year after and the 16 storey office tower starts construction in Feb or March. While its nothing big, this space when added up is a decent amount of space coming onto the market. Downtown has 14.7 million space.

Actually according to Colliers it is 3.5% vacancy.

http://www.colliersmn.com/prod/ccgrd.nsf/publish/588D31B1DE1781378725721F005B2D9D/$File/q306-office.pdf

[Coldrsx]

Downtown Edmonton is just now about to reach a critical mass stage that it once had many years ago.....and we will see significant new investment in the 10 blocks around the core. And although it might take a while to start up, downtown Edmonton has more potential than downtown calgary for a significant residential population simply due to the lack of office towers in the core here relative to there. We can literally have 10 - 30 storey condo towers right in the core.

[Edmonchuck]

That's what annoys me about this forum....too much "skyscrapers = progress". I know that this is skyscraperpage.com, but economics of a city go beyond phallic symbols of glass.

Calgary made an effort to concentrate its major employment nodes downtown. Therefore, one would expect more residential to readily and quickly move downtown as commuting patterns changed due to congestion. No big push, just evolution. No big master plan, just Darwin.

Edmonton dispursed its nodes, so you get a U of A and a WEM and an industrial park and throw on top of this a regional municipal deal that is crap. Hence, sprawl.

Compare apples to apples...Edmonton is booming...just not in the pretty glass tower world.

[feepa]

Stronger than ever? How young are you?

I'm a young gun grandpa. '79

[IntotheWest]

Within close walking distance to "railtown" or most of downtown/Oliver is Safeway on 104ave/116 street, Save-On Foods on 109st and 102 ave, and soon Sobeys on Jasper and 104st, and speculation behind a SuperStore near Stationlands or at stationlands.



I worked at Epcor/Scotia for two years, so familiar enough with downtown that I recall when I lived there, I considered the Safeway too far from most of the places "downtown" I'd want to live - maybe that's just me. Isn't Save-on in the "Railtown" development...about seven or so years old????

Despite the architecture criticism you may have for that, it is far better than what was there, and like I said - I think made it more attractive to live in that general area.

Besides, If you thought that was a bad design, what do you think a Stupidstore is going to look like in the downtown area? Unless Edmonton is going with a more "urban" style like the Costco and such in Vancouver...something tells me that wouldn't be the case though.

[LordMandeep]

can't we say that the majoirty of the big Canadian cities have growing downtowns...

[Coldrsx]

^railtown/saveon was built in the mid/late 90's.

As for the superstore...it would be all glass fronting the streets with retail, but it would need towers on top for me to approve it.

but yes, the downtown is very much more liveable than 10 yrs...even 5 ago.

[LordMandeep]

agree i found the downtowns of both cities quite nice...

Toronto downtown is exploding in change so it appears to be a good trend in Canada.

[feepa]

I worked at Epcor/Scotia for two years, so familiar enough with downtown that I recall when I lived there, I considered the Safeway too far from most of the places "downtown" I'd want to live - maybe that's just me. Isn't Save-on in the "Railtown" development...about seven or so years old????

Despite the architecture criticism you may have for that, it is far better than what was there, and like I said - I think made it more attractive to live in that general area.

Besides, If you thought that was a bad design, what do you think a Stupidstore is going to look like in the downtown area? Unless Edmonton is going with a more "urban" style like the Costco and such in Vancouver...something tells me that wouldn't be the case though.

Not sure if my post was really of any opinion, I was merely stating the locations of these types of stores downtown.
I agree, That save on food is better then what was there before, But I personally think the land could be used for so much more, including this save ons foods. Any ways - this is getting rather off topic

[IntotheWest]

Not sure if my post was really of any opinion, I was merely stating the locations of these types of stores downtown.
I agree, That save on food is better then what was there before, But I personally think the land could be used for so much more, including this save ons foods. Any ways - this is getting rather off topic

I don't think that's off-topic...it is on topic with setting up amenities that will help bring people to the core. My post was of opinion, because I wasn't living downtown Edm (but working as mentioned), and wasn't attracted to living down there (98/99 timeframe) - until Railtown went in. I'm sure I wasn't the only one that thought that.

The other grocery stores should equally help.

[murman]

I'm a young gun grandpa. '79

I'll never be a "pa", let alone a "grandpa". I can't stand the smell of baby powder.

[feepa]

I'll never be a "pa", let alone a "grandpa". I can't stand the smell of baby powder.

Did someone just say thank god, or am I just hearing things :haha:

[murman]

Did someone just say thank god, or am I just hearing things :haha:

Humanity will sleep a little sounder tonight.

[chuber]

I'll never be a "pa", let alone a "grandpa". I can't stand the smell of baby powder.


FYI I have a 7 month old and have never used or smelt baby powder. lol

There are a ton of other things to be concerned about though...

[MolsonExport]

I'll never be a "pa", let alone a "grandpa". I can't stand the smell of baby powder.

But you already sound like a crotchety old man.

[CMD UW]

Fact is that Railtown DID help initiate interest and development in downtown Edmonton. Look at how many condo projects started once Railtown began. The addition of the Save-On-Foods retail development helped establish shopping amenities which fuelled interest from investors.

In fact, each year the number and scale of developments in the downtown have increased. It blows my mind at how easily people forget that a few short years ago the only 'active' zone was at the Second Cup at the Milner Library.

[ExcaliburKid]

Fact is that Railtown DID help initiate interest and development in downtown Edmonton. Look at how many condo projects started once Railtown began. The addition of the Save-On-Foods retail development helped establish shopping amenities which fuelled interest from investors.

In fact, each year the number and scale of developments in the downtown have increased. It blows my mind at how easily people forget that a few short years ago the only 'active' zone was at the Second Cup at the Milner Library.

Yeah, I guess im a little ignorant on this one, I'm only 23, and I just started taking a real interest in skyscrapers and construction a few years ago when i saw legacy going up. Im sure you are bang-on though, regarding Railtown sparking development.

[Daver]

Downtown Edmonton is just now about to reach a critical mass stage that it once had many years ago.....and we will see significant new investment in the 10 blocks around the core. And although it might take a while to start up, downtown Edmonton has more potential than downtown calgary for a significant residential population simply due to the lack of office towers in the core here relative to there. We can literally have 10 - 30 storey condo towers right in the core.

Yes you can, but they may take 30-40 years to build. People live in particular areas for reasons...not just for cultural reasons or because a new supermarket opens up or a square gets built. I'm sorry, I don't aggree with your point about Edmonton downtown development out stripping Calgary's...not in a long shot. Calgary has more construction in the core as well as the beltline areas with regards to condos than Edmonton, now and in the future. Yes I aggree Edmonton has more space, but that doesn't mean condos will fill them when there is no reason to live there. Work is the # 1 reason for relocation...exspecially moving TO the downtown, and Edmonton doesn't have any of that compared to Calgary. Edmonton's 14 million sq. ft. of office space compared to Calgary's quickly growing 32 million sq. ft.(at a lower vacancy rate) is the reason why Calgary will out pace Edmonton's downtown condo development for a great many years to come. Convieniance is living and working ...together.Calgary's condos will only get taller with lack of areas to build. Edmonton still has to sell it's downtown, so people can move there becasue of work. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Supply and demand...you do the math.

[Waterlooson]

Yes you can, but they may take 30-40 years to build. People live in particular areas for reasons...not just for cultural reasons or because a new supermarket opens up or a square gets built. I'm sorry, I don't aggree with your point about Edmonton downtown development out stripping Calgary's...not in a long shot. Calgary has more construction in the core as well as the beltline areas with regards to condos than Edmonton, now and in the future. Yes I aggree Edmonton has more space, but that doesn't mean condos will fill them when there is no reason to live there. Work is the # 1 reason for relocation...exspecially moving TO the downtown, and Edmonton doesn't have any of that compared to Calgary. Edmonton's 14 million sq. ft. of office space compared to Calgary's quickly growing 32 million sq. ft.(at a lower vacancy rate) is the reason why Calgary will out pace Edmonton's downtown condo development for a great many years to come. Convieniance is living and working ...together.Calgary's condos will only get taller with lack of areas to build. Edmonton still has to sell it's downtown, so people can move there becasue of work. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Supply and demand...you do the math.


Well reasoned points.

[Coldrsx]

Yes you can, but they may take 30-40 years to build. People live in particular areas for reasons...not just for cultural reasons or because a new supermarket opens up or a square gets built. I'm sorry, I don't aggree with your point about Edmonton downtown development out stripping Calgary's...not in a long shot. Calgary has more construction in the core as well as the beltline areas with regards to condos than Edmonton, now and in the future. Yes I aggree Edmonton has more space, but that doesn't mean condos will fill them when there is no reason to live there. Work is the # 1 reason for relocation...exspecially moving TO the downtown, and Edmonton doesn't have any of that compared to Calgary. Edmonton's 14 million sq. ft. of office space compared to Calgary's quickly growing 32 million sq. ft.(at a lower vacancy rate) is the reason why Calgary will out pace Edmonton's downtown condo development for a great many years to come. Convieniance is living and working ...together.Calgary's condos will only get taller with lack of areas to build. Edmonton still has to sell it's downtown, so people can move there becasue of work. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Supply and demand...you do the math.

i forgot that people had to work downtown to live downtown.....guess ive been in vancouver too long.

[CMD UW]

/\ Last I remember the Greater Vancouver area has dispersed employment areas outside of the downtown and yet its downtown has been growing for years and years even without any new downtown office buildings. Hmmmm, something tells me that Davers logic is off.

[Daver]

i forgot that people had to work downtown to live downtown.....guess ive been in vancouver too long.

Vancouver has high density, with an ocean view, whereas Edmonton does not.

Best example to help you understand might be New York. People live and work together. anyone knows that to get any majority of people in one area to live takes more than one factor. In fact multiples. All I'm saying is anyone must be blind not to see why Calgary is more prolific with high density downtown office and condo construction...because they go together. Maybe Edmonton should concentrate on mixed used development in the core. Relying on just condo construction is short lived and short sighted.

[BlackRedGold]

/\ Last I remember the Greater Vancouver area has dispersed employment areas outside of the downtown and yet its downtown has been growing for years and years even without any new downtown office buildings. Hmmmm, something tells me that Davers logic is off.

And how many ways can the Vancouver metro grow? There isn't much land available for urban sprawl and the land that is available is a long way from downtown. So Vancouver is forced to grow upwards instead of out. And if you're going to live in an apartment the most attractive place would be close to the amenities of downtown.

Edmonton doesn't have the problem of being unable to grow out. It can sprawl in numerous directions. So people can buy a house and still be within a decent driving distance to downtown.

[ExcaliburKid]

Edmonton doesn't have the problem of being unable to grow out. It can sprawl in numerous directions. So people can buy a house and still be within a decent driving distance to downtown.


Thats a pretty lazy logic you have there. Think about it this way, if you live in downtown Edmonton, regardless of whether or not you work in the core, its a 20-25 min commute to any corner of the city. Why wouldnt someone at least consider downtown as an option? I HATE living in the 'burbs, but right now its what's most economical for me, even though I work downtown. I would KILL to have a place downtown, its just so cool being surrounded by high-rises :D

[chenmau]

Think about it this way, if you live in downtown Edmonton, regardless of whether or not you work in the core, its a 20-25 min commute to any corner of the city.

But not everyone needs to go to all corners of the city on a regular basis, so why would they factor that into their decision?

[BlackRedGold]

But not everyone needs to go to all corners of the city on a regular basis, so why would they factor that into their decision?

Exactly! In most cities the suburbs on opposite ends of the city have the same things. The difference in Vancouver is that there are no suburbs on opposite ends of the city from downtown.

[Coldrsx]

Vancouver has high density, with an ocean view, whereas Edmonton does not.

Best example to help you understand might be New York. People live and work together. anyone knows that to get any majority of people in one area to live takes more than one factor. In fact multiples. All I'm saying is anyone must be blind not to see why Calgary is more prolific with high density downtown office and condo construction...because they go together. Maybe Edmonton should concentrate on mixed used development in the core. Relying on just condo construction is short lived and short sighted.

im not saying Edmonton is anywhere near vancouver in reality, but you can have a dense residential core in a city like Edmonton even without an ocean or workplace centered there. Mixed use is going to be key for Edmonton, as with any city really, to ensure that no part is left behind (see vancouver's current situtation, hell even calgary for condos in the core). Edmonton is far from a good example of urban development, but given the office focus in calgary, Edmonton IMO will focus more on promoting a livable, viable, safe, residential downtown......

Calgary will have its beltline as will Edmonton with the north edge, but the potential (and yes it may take more time) for a larger residential population in the core for Edmonton is real.

however, land values will argue with me.

[Xelebes]

Edmonton also has that river valley thinger which makes the downtown a bit more appealing to wake up to. The most expensive lots in the city are along the river. I know the times I've been to Calgary, the river valley there is a bit underwhelming. It's like Sturgeon River in St. Albert.

[brento79]

That is the key^ I know many people that want to live downtown Edmonton not because of working there, but because of the river valley. I for one will be downtown shortly and look forward to having the river valley at my door step.

I do however feel that Calgary may outshine Edmonton for condos just because of the mere population of people working downtown.

On the note of Edmonton and commericial downtown development, I am frustrated. Many companies including mine are expanding, but don't have places to Expand downtown because of there being no space. If something isn't built soon Edmonton's core is going to be at a point where companies have to move out because of lack of room...I fear that may already be happening as there isn't room for new companies to even enter the downtown market.

[ExcaliburKid]

But not everyone needs to go to all corners of the city on a regular basis, so why would they factor that into their decision?
I suppose I should have said "if need be".
Exactly! In most cities the suburbs on opposite ends of the city have the same things. The difference in Vancouver is that there are no suburbs on opposite ends of the city from downtown.

Well thats the problem with the 'burbs. They are all carbon copies of each other, and it forces citizens to be vehicle dependent. I guess im just more inclined to support downtown living because I enjoy the vibe I get when im there, and I like the idea of being able to walk to my destinations. I know not everyone shares that viewpoint though, im not trying to alienate anyone.

[Coldrsx]

"
On the note of Edmonton and commericial downtown development, I am frustrated. Many companies including mine are expanding, but don't have places to Expand downtown because of there being no space. If something isn't built soon Edmonton's core is going to be at a point where companies have to move out because of lack of room...I fear that may already be happening as there isn't room for new companies to even enter the downtown market.
"


bingo......we need some people to take risks on spec. Devonian will help as will professional, but we need some more A/AA space and even good B space to keep firms in and around the downtown.

[Daver]

"
On the note of Edmonton and commericial downtown development, I am frustrated. Many companies including mine are expanding, but don't have places to Expand downtown because of there being no space. If something isn't built soon Edmonton's core is going to be at a point where companies have to move out because of lack of room...I fear that may already be happening as there isn't room for new companies to even enter the downtown market.
"


bingo......we need some people to take risks on spec. Devonian will help as will professional, but we need some more A/AA space and even good B space to keep firms in and around the downtown.


Ya, why is it more investors aren't taking risks in spec development. I don't know if it's an American thing or what. I think If Edmonton could get a few good spec buildings, It may spark more development in confidence. Edmonton has a great office vacancy rate, but perhaps construction costs are too high. I think if a building is built at a higher cost, It will always pay for itself during it's lifecycle, based on ASHREA's structural engineering dept. would be 60 to 80 years life expectancy, depending on construction. The market is always skidish.

Ed. needs something...something iconic.

[ssiguy]

I don't think the consrtuction costs have much to do with it considering construction and land prices are higher in Calgary but office towers are going up like wildfire there.

[ibz]

The office market in Calgary is an entirely different beast then in Edmonton. Demand for space faaaar exceeds that of Edmonton, and rates are considerbly higher. Construction costs wouldnt be the only reason, but it certainly can contribute..not so long ago most people around here agreed that $20-$24 bucks a square foot with low vacancy rates = new towers. We have that now in Edmonton yet, people in the know are suggesting it may take higher sq ft rates in order for this to happen.

However, besides office renos (Devonian bldg) there already have been plans for a 16 story tower (as mentioned), and rumours continue to circulate regarding other sites downtown. Im sure its only a matter of time before we see a major tower announced that will actually go ahead.

[m0nkyman]

Nobody wants to get burned. Knowing the mysterious ways of developers as I do, I'm willing to bet that the minute a tower goes up and the developer doesn't take a bloodbath on it á la Manulife, then every developer in the country will suddenly take an interest in Edmonton. Especially if it's decided that Calgary is reaching glut... *cough* (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=239758)

[ScottFromCalgary]

The office market in Calgary is an entirely different beast then in Edmonton. Demand for space faaaar exceeds that of Edmonton, and rates are considerbly higher. Construction costs wouldnt be the only reason, but it certainly can contribute..not so long ago most people around here agreed that $20-$24 bucks a square foot with low vacancy rates = new towers. We have that now in Edmonton yet, people in the know are suggesting it may take higher sq ft rates in order for this to happen.

With vacancy in Calgary at 0.34% for 2006 and 0.84% for 2007 (projected) there is still a much bigger crunch in Calgary. Immediately available Class B office space is being scooped up for $40/sq. ft. and long-term leases signed for Class AA at around the same price. Considering construction costs are similar in Calgary and Edmonton, obviously the resources to build new towers are going to be directed towards Calgary.

[Daver]

I don't think the consrtuction costs have much to do with it considering construction and land prices are higher in Calgary but office towers are going up like wildfire there.

Calgary currently has the lowest vacancy rate in the world, yet office contruction is lower than that of earlier years (70's and early 80's). There is a sq.footage difference of development and construction, however proposed development is encouraging. Cost plays a massive role...when each new project increases 30% a year as it is delayed based on skilled labour and cost of materials.Yes demand and ability to build are out pacing themselves. Look at Pennylane, they have pushed back their development date due to cost additions because of inflation. Their project was to cost 246 million (2004) and now it will cost 500 million to build and growing. Investment needs return less inflation. Even Edmonton's Stationlands originally pegged at 250 million would now cost around 450 million. Look at the $85 million cost over run on the Calgary Courts Centre during its short contruction duration. Supply and demand...

[CMD UW]

I don't think the consrtuction costs have much to do with it considering construction and land prices are higher in Calgary but office towers are going up like wildfire there.
Construction costs have ALOT to do with every type of development in Alberta. From convenience stores to office buildings.

[Coldrsx]

Edmonton will see new office space, but we need 2-3 more strong years of net rent increases and demand being there. Sure we have 30 firms needing say 10,000 sqft each, but what a nightmare to do a new tower with.

We NEED 1 or 2 large players, which are hard to come by here, needing 100,000-150,000 sqft...simple as that folks.

until then, NO NEW OFFICE.

[murman]

Edmonton will see new office space, but we need 2-3 more strong years of net rent increases and demand being there. Sure we have 30 firms needing say 10,000 sqft each, but what a nightmare to do a new tower with.

We NEED 1 or 2 large players, which are hard to come by here, needing 100,000-150,000 sqft...simple as that folks.

until then, NO NEW OFFICE.

The brokerage community is buzzing about substantial new Gov't RFPs in 2007, so stay tuned.

[big W]

The brokerage community is buzzing about substantial new Gov't RFPs in 2007, so stay tuned.

Feds and Province.