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glynnjamin
Dec 5, 2008, 4:06 PM
damn, no one wants to have a discussion around here.

Ok, how about this one -

With regards to the potential Scottsdale expansion of the LRT, does running the extension up Rural/Scottsdale from the existing line make more sense than running the line down Curry (from the Mill Ave split) to Scottsdale and then going north from there?

There is a stop at Univ. & Rural which should serve the area south of the lake pretty well but I wonder if having one continuously straight line running up Scottsdale Rd is easier than trying to cram it on Curry and then have a sweeping turn to go north on Scottsdale. Also, tearing up the entire intersection of Scottsdale Rd just north of the freeway would be a nightmare. Of course, running the line up Scottsdale Rd would also be a nightmare.

Obviously the opposition to LRT is attributed, in part, to the nightmare the construction would cause. Scottsdale Rd, unlike Central, is full of businesses already. Is LRT the right option for Scottsdale Rd or should Scottsdale circulate their trolley down to Rural/work with Tempe Orbit to attract LRT riders?

vertex
Dec 5, 2008, 6:14 PM
^^^Where have you heard about a Curry road alignment? I don't think they could pull that off due to the steeper grade. I've always thought any potential alignment would be along Rural/Scottsdale road, with the junction at 8th street (south of University) and another at 6th street (north of University).

Anyway, Valley Metro can't worry about providing service to a city that doesn't want it yet. They have to concentrate on the south Tempe extension, which (by the way) is probably going to head south on Rural road anyway. And if that is the case, it makes a future Curry road alignment even less likely.

glynnjamin
Dec 5, 2008, 7:39 PM
^I was at one of the city meetings a few years back (when they were just breaking ground...maybe 2005) and one of the council members said that the cost of building another bridge over the lake, retrofitting the current Rural Bridge, and getting the rail under the 202 was too costly and would simply make the whole project too expensive. He said that running it north of the lake would make the most sense.

That was years ago and he never specifically said Curry but ... well ... I don't know where else you would do it. In any event, the Tempe extension does make the issue moot but I have trouble understanding how they are going to deal with the cost of getting over the water and under the 202.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe implementing a bus lane (like in Tucson) and then using trolleys would be the best way to go with Scottsdale. It would minimize construction and lessen the impact of rails or overhead lines but provide a quick gridlock-resistant way to move commuters between the LRT stop and Fashion Square.

nickkoto
Dec 6, 2008, 9:08 AM
I'm sure that running it up Curry would be the easier option. There's nothing much there that anyone would miss having access to for a couple of years.

Also, judging by the 16+ months it took to retrofit a friggin' overpass to handle the train (101/Apache), there's no doubt in my mind that getting the LR across the existing town lake bridge on Scottsdale Rd would be a headache. Nobody would want Scottsdale/Rural Rd closed for two years, not there. They could build a LR bridge to the west of the road, since no condos have been started there yet, but then it would probably make more sense to route the train down Packard Road until it hits the lake. And then you still have to get it under the 202, keeping in mind that it's already a fairly complex intersection.

Curry would be so much easier, or maybe they should run it through Papago to McDowell. Take a train to the zoo anyone?


Also, I think that existing crossing on University is also going to be a traffic problem once this thing gets up and running. You can already see it on their limited testing schedule, but the crossing arms go down while the train is still somewhere between the stadium and Wells Fargo Arena and it takes a while to clear. You figure with trains running every 8 minutes in both directions, those crossing arms are probably going to be down for a good chunk of the day in a very inconvenient location.

glynnjamin
Dec 6, 2008, 11:30 PM
^ That was my thinking on the issue but I don't know anything about moving a train up a hill other than - its a bitch. Construction around papago does pose similar problems to those that were experienced when they built the original line around there...being that they could not disturb the indian relics. Maybe run it through Moore park, next to the freeway?

I'm never in Tempe...what's the deal with the gates? They don't have gates anywhere else on the line do they? I can't think of any through Phoenix. Why do they have gates and not just a light?

glynnjamin
Dec 6, 2008, 11:45 PM
Anyone see this in the AZRep?
http://www.azcentral.com/ic/community/gl-lightrail1206.pdf
Attached to an article about changing the LRT Route in Glendale...

City leaders are at odds over the best route for Glendale's stretch of light rail, with some defending the original line to downtown and others arguing for taking it to the city's sports and entertainment district instead.

Now that the first starter line is nearing opening day, Glendale is looking to the future of its line.

But first, city officials must agree on one basic thing: where it should go.

Plans to lay a mass-transit line in Glendale were formed years ago. In 2001, voters approved a transportation sales tax and plan to bring it downtown by 2017.

Since then, competing interests and new growth have given rise to several alternatives.

The most viable competition to the downtown Glendale route is one running along Interstate 10 and Loop 101 to University of Phoenix Stadium and the surrounding sports and entertainment district.

It's what Mayor Elaine Scruggs calls the city's "one prayer in the world" for building light rail, the only route she argues will get a nod from the many local, regional and federal groups that weigh in.

Glendale City Council members took the gloves off this week as they debated what direction to go with light rail.

"The hurdles this will have to go through are humongous," said Scruggs, chairwoman of the Valley Metro board that oversees regional transportation. Among the hurdles to building the Loop 101 line are:


• Proving that ridership along the route will be high enough.


• The length of regional light rail is fixed. Since the alternative route exceeds approved plans by 3 miles, other cities must agree to give up 3 miles of their light-rail plans.


• Gaining Phoenix's backing for the alternative. The Valley's largest city holds considerable voting power on the Valley Metro board, which approves light-rail projects.


• Figure out funding. Federal dollars aren't guaranteed. Glendale must be prepared to finance the project fully if needed.

Other leaders called for a greater public conversation.

“The mayor wants to plough right ahead,” said Councilwoman Joyce Clark, whose district includes the sports and entertainment complex. “I'm tired of scare tactics. I want to hear what the residents feel.”

Light rail is an important part of the city's campaign to revitalize downtown, Councilman Phil Lieberman said.

Still a majority of the council members favored the Loop 101 alternative.

City Manager Ed Beasley plans to begin talks with Phoenix about whether it would support the route, what mutual benefits the cities would gain and what funding options could be explored.

What they're saying

"I don't believe we will ever have light rail in Glendale if we go by what's on the map (the downtown route). The Loop 101 option is the only one that has a chance of getting any financial support from Phoenix, and we can do nothing without that."

- Glendale Mayor Elaine Scruggs

"It's a shame (the Loop 101 option) is beginning to gain traction. The key thing the council and city planners need to look at is getting the maximum numbers to ride it and the maximum number of places to go. With downtown Glendale, it would connect to the kinds of uses and activities people use all the time."

- Bart Turner, downtown Glendale property owner

"The Loop 101 corridor is where all the growth is going to occur in the next decade. Downtown Glendale is charming and unique. But the development at Loop 101 is going to create the need for light rail now and in the future."

- Rick Burton, principal of Rightpath Limited Development Group, a main developer in the sports and entertainment district

"I don't see a great economic benefit to bringing light rail up Loop 101. It's just like adding another lane. What troubles me is that although the city says downtown Glendale is a high priority, they're not helping it by not bringing light rail down there."

- Sharon Reeves, Glendale resident

"A lot of things have changed since light rail was proposed. (Phoenix) supports Glendale's efforts to fully explore the different options, while making sure we're meeting the needs of the community. There are pros and cons for both routes. Now it's up to the community to help us decide."

- Phoenix Councilman Tom Simplot, president of Metro light-rail board

glynnjamin
Dec 6, 2008, 11:54 PM
Just for the sake of throwing my opinion out there...

Doesn't it really make more sense to do Commuter Rail down I-10 and down Grand Ave? Cities like Avondale, Dysart, Goodyear, and Litchfield could benefit from 2 or three stations in that area and then a straight shot into downtown Phoenix via commuter rail that runs East-Bound in the AM and West-Bound PM...maybe an extra one during March around noon to get people to the baseball games in Goodyear.

Downtown Glendale would benefit from a commuter line that ran up Grand Ave and connected Surprise and Glendale to Phoenix. You've got the track. Build a station and make some improvements to the line and the easement. Traffic problems would be solved from the West Valley. Continue running the LRT north on the east side of I-17 up to 19th Ave & the 101 Park & Ride.

You cover the west valley, northwest valley, and north valley without major traffic or transit headaches and for significantly less money. The only think Phoenix would have to do would be to reopen Union Station and run the LRT down to it.

HooverDam
Dec 7, 2008, 5:12 AM
Combusean and I were both at a meeting a while back begging Metro to consider running the West line down Thomas instead of down the I-10, sadly the power players are set in their ways. They're going to ask Light Rail to do commuter rail or rapid busses service and its a shame. Instead of having a billion dollar investment that could revitalize Maryvale and the near west side, they're bypassing the area to get out to Westgate.

Again here is the map Id hope LRT would follow:
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3275/lrtmaplu5.jpg

The LRT should run west along Washington to connect to the Capitol. Then North on 19th Ave up to Thomas Rd, connecting to the Fairground/Encanto Park. Then Westbound through Maryvale and to the Desert Sky area. Then north up to Westgate.

Since theres already a NW line being built on 19th ave it should also have a leg going west on Glendale Ave. It could connect the near West side of Phoenix to Downtown Glendale, and then onto Westgate.

If Glendale doesn't screw it up (unlikely) Glendale Ave between Downtown Glendale could become the next Camelback Corridor, with mid-rise TOD on either side connecting to the LRT.

combusean
Dec 7, 2008, 7:16 AM
Most West Valley downtowns are located along the UPRR tracks. It makes a lot of sense to connect them with higher speed commuter rail service rather than leaving light rail which works better as an interurban for the comparatively more denser areas at least this side of the 101.

But I never understood in campaigning for the Thomas Rd connection what the impetus was for I-10 light rail, and I thought it was because Glendale wanted it to connect to Westgate. I had suspected it was because Glendale wanted it to connect to Westgate via the 101, and we find out this is now the case. Now we have to bend over backwards to be Glendale's bitch--bypassing local neighborhoods, probably forking out some cash we don't have. It's masqueraded as this last resort by the Glendale mayor when I know it never was.

And Tom Simplot is asking the community what's best? Jak Keyser laid it down when the I-10 corridor was decided at Council. A lot of people were watching this decision and understood what we were asking for in a Thomas Road connection. At that meeting Tom Simplot's sitting there praising the effects of freeway TOD like we've never seen it before--telling the community that they're wrong in effect.

And how did the I-10 option start competing with the downtown Glendale option when both are on the proposed map of extensions? It seems completely off the wall that Phoenix would point to Prop 400 as that's what was voted on for I-10 as opposed to Thomas Rd, and then come up with a different rationale for nixing the Northern Ave corridor. Their definition and exploitation of "community support" is reprehensible.

The Glendale city councilwoman is right on in calling out those "scare tactics." That's exactly what we ran into: the numbers they are looking for are going to be there for the I-10, it's easier to build because they left the median there, the competition for federal dollars is too tight... any reason they could think of to justify their reasons being the only way. They've already decided it, paid their consultants to come up with numbers stating the same, and shove it down everyones throat at the public meetings.

Tom Simplot needs to go. What community does he ostensibly support? He's the talking head of this massive disaster in bureaucratic groupthink. I wouldn't be surprised if he was in cahoots with the large landowners near I-10 that might stand to benefit from upzoning for some farfetched freeway TOD proposal. His associations with the Arizona Multifamily Association seem very curious in this regard. Everyone else in the debate seems to understand the value in connecting established neighborhoods--Maryvale, downtown Glendale for example. Tom and Mayor Scruggs are the odd ones out.

glynnjamin
Dec 8, 2008, 3:32 AM
Wow guys, thanks for your insight. I have trouble understanding why Phoenix would bother to build on the I-10 at all. We see little to no benefit from running the LRT down the freeway. Not only does the cost of freeway construction (in transportation hours due to construction, as well as monetary) far outweigh running the line through Maryvale but the amount of benefit seen from the citizens of Phoenix would be far less with an I-10 route. If anyone is going to pay to run the line down I-10, it needs to be the West Valley Coalition. There is great benefit to both the city of Phoenix and to the WV if Thomas (or even Indian School) is considered. Not only would the Maryvale Stadium benefit during Spring Training but the area would see some much needed infill development. Maryvale is one of the few areas of Phoenix that is overall very bad and could greatly use some improvements.

I love the idea of running the LRT to the capitol and then up 19th to the Fairgrounds.

Vicelord John
Dec 8, 2008, 4:41 PM
It needs to run down Indian School Road, for a few reasons.

1. There is already a bridge over Grand Avenue.
2. It's a very dangerous road with a lot of left turns. The track barriers down the middle could save lives by preventing left turns. And its a very wide road.
3. It runs down the middle of some of the densest and poorest neighborhoods in the city. Will get lots of use.
4. I can ride it to my parents house.

HooverDam
Dec 8, 2008, 8:03 PM
It needs to run down Indian School Road, for a few reasons.

1. There is already a bridge over Grand Avenue.
2. It's a very dangerous road with a lot of left turns. The track barriers down the middle could save lives by preventing left turns. And its a very wide road.
3. It runs down the middle of some of the densest and poorest neighborhoods in the city. Will get lots of use.
4. I can ride it to my parents house.

When we went to that meeting they were opposed to Thomas Rd because it was too far north in their eyes (among other reasons), so theres no way they'd do Indian School. I originally had thought McDowell would be good because its closest to the 10, but there really isn't enough along McDowell to justify it. Thomas seems to be the main artery through Maryvale, and it would also be able to serve Desert Sky mall.

HX_Guy
Dec 8, 2008, 11:39 PM
Light rail guide: http://www.valleymetro.org/images/uploads/lightrail_publications/METRO-Ride-Guide.pdf

glynnjamin
Dec 9, 2008, 12:51 AM
It needs to run down Indian School Road, for a few reasons.

1. There is already a bridge over Grand Avenue.
2. It's a very dangerous road with a lot of left turns. The track barriers down the middle could save lives by preventing left turns. And its a very wide road.
3. It runs down the middle of some of the densest and poorest neighborhoods in the city. Will get lots of use.
4. I can ride it to my parents house.

you saying your parents are dense and poor John? That explains a lot. Just kidding!:haha:

Vicelord John
Dec 9, 2008, 2:01 AM
why do you think I am the way I am?

glynnjamin
Dec 9, 2008, 5:01 AM
I gotta say, I'm pretty bummed I can't take my dog on the Metro. I was gonna use it to take him to the ChrisTown dog park on the weekends. Maybe I'll invest in one of those dog strollers...

The small dog owners get all the perks.

HX_Guy
Dec 11, 2008, 12:35 AM
So some random rambling...

I was thinking today about how people complain about the light rail and they always use the argument that a bus can do everything light rail does except cheaper. I always defend the position of light rail but not so much that it's better, but that they work together.

So going off that...I came up with a good analogy right...

Buses are like streets and light rail is like the freeway.
Like the freeway, light rail doesn't go right by your front door or reach every corner of the Valley (especially when they started first building them).
Like the freeway, it costs much more then streets (buses) but it carries a lot more people and faster.
Like the freeway, it spurs development along it's corridor.
Like the freeway, people generally like to live close by and have easy access.

Makes sense, no? :D

HooverDam
Dec 11, 2008, 2:05 AM
Buses are like surface streets and light rail is like the freeway. Like the freeway, light rail doesn't go right by your front door but it does carry a lot more people and faster. Like the freeway, it spurs development along it's corridor and people generally like to move close and have easy access. Makes sense, right? :D

Indeed, thats a perfect analogy. Plus light rail can move more people in less space than freeways, pollutes less, means condemning less land, is accessible to more people and spurs WALKABLE development near it :D

nickkoto
Dec 11, 2008, 3:07 AM
To me, buses aren't a practical alternative to driving if the parking at your destination is free, because you're stuck on the same roads in the same traffic, only in a much slower vehicle with the chance of a homeless guy's armpit being pressed in your face. And I say that as someone who takes the bus to ASU 5 days a week. I absolutely wouldn't use it if it wasn't $780/year for a permit to park in a semi-inconvenient location.

The rail is a genuine alternative because it's going to move at the same speed regardless of how many cars are on the road. It's not going to be a 20 minute wait at the stop plus 45 minutes to move me three miles like the !@#$ing buses often do to me.

glynnjamin
Dec 11, 2008, 6:56 PM
Just for a LRT speed reference. I was driving home yesterday down central. Passed the LRT just south of Camelback as it was sitting at the station. The LRT was also heading south. I reached my house at 2nd ave & Fillmore about 30 seconds before the LRT passed by. Kind of blew my mind that it could stop every 1/2 mile and still almost beat me home. There was a moment when I thought it was going to get caught at the light but, sure enough, the light changed right as it was pulling up. Quite impressive.

In any event, for those who think LRT is too slow, it is apparent that its speed plus light priority is as fast, if not faster, than driving. This was in light to moderate traffic so I can only imagine it flying by me if I were headed south in the morning instead of at 4pm.

Vicelord John
Dec 11, 2008, 7:15 PM
I just read the brocure on how to ride the train...

the doors don't open automatically like on every other train?

it says you have to push a button, just like on the busses?

jvbahn
Dec 11, 2008, 7:41 PM
:previous: Not all systems have automatically open doors, it depends on who manufactures the cars. Here in Berlin the doors also have a button which needs to be pushed to open the door, whereas in London they open automatically.

HooverDam
Dec 11, 2008, 7:41 PM
I just read the brocure on how to ride the train...

the doors don't open automatically like on every other train?

it says you have to push a button, just like on the busses?

When I rode it the doors opened automatically, maybe you just push a button if they're broken.

PHX31
Dec 11, 2008, 8:15 PM
The trains must really be ramping up their testing for the last month before opening. Up until about a week ago, I had never seen a light rail train on my way to or from work (I cross central on Thomas to/from work). Now, I see them every single morning and evening. The priority they are given at the lights seems to be working pretty well and rarely are they waiting at the lights for more than a couple seconds to let the signal cycle through to give them precedence.

Downtown_resident
Dec 11, 2008, 8:44 PM
The trains must really be ramping up their testing for the last month before opening. Up until about a week ago, I had never seen a light rail train on my way to or from work (I cross central on Thomas to/from work). Now, I see them every single morning and evening. The priority they are given at the lights seems to be working pretty well and rarely are they waiting at the lights for more than a couple seconds to let the signal cycle through to give them precedence.

I agree. I counted four trains while driving up Central from Roosevelt to Camelback, and I saw a couple last night while I was over in Tempe and Mesa. On that note, there's a really cool new Asian-themed strip mall in Mesa at the southwest corner of Dobson and Main/Apache where Target used to sit. It has a supermarket, at least two hip-looking Asian restaurants and some interior mall space as well. It looks like it's a short walk from the light rail station just east of Dobson. Very cool, and definitely a place to check out when light rail gets going in a few days.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

Classical in Phoenix
Dec 11, 2008, 8:53 PM
I agree. I counted four trains while driving up Central from Roosevelt to Camelback, and I saw a couple last night while I was over in Tempe and Mesa. On that note, there's a really cool new Asian-themed strip mall in Mesa at the southwest corner of Dobson and Main/Apache where Target used to sit. It has a supermarket, at least two hip-looking Asian restaurants and some interior mall space as well. It looks like it's a short walk from the light rail station just east of Dobson. Very cool, and definitely a place to check out when light rail gets going in a few days.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com

It's kinda sporadic. My office looks down on the tracks at Osborn and at times they go by every few (5 or so) minutes. At other times it may be a couple of hours before you see them again.

glynnjamin
Dec 11, 2008, 9:33 PM
Ya, I hear them cross the tracks about 10 minutes apart at times and then I won't hear them for hours. Walked over to AMC last night and expected to see one going over or coming back...never saw the stupid thing. Kind of annoyed.

Quick question...what's with the LRT turnaround track on McKinley? Are they going to be running short service shuttles or something? Like a downtown loop? Just curious why the track needed to be there for the trains to change direction when they should run from end to end.

Vicelord John
Dec 11, 2008, 9:42 PM
I've been watching the trains stop at red lights like crazy.

Vicelord John
Dec 11, 2008, 9:42 PM
Quick question...what's with the LRT turnaround track on McKinley? Are they going to be running short service shuttles or something? Like a downtown loop? Just curious why the track needed to be there for the trains to change direction when they should run from end to end.

you don't think it'd be a good idea to have a "just incase" track every now and then? there is another one on 11th street.

glynnjamin
Dec 11, 2008, 10:23 PM
^In case of what? I guess I just don't see what purpose they serve. Would the conductor be driving along and be like..well, no one on this train, let's turn around cuz I'm sure no one is at a stop later on. I mean, I can see it being useful for maybe running a shuttle type service between a couple of points but I just wonder about the locations. So we've established there is one at 11th and one at McKinley. Anyone know of any others?

I can understand planning ahead. I guess I am just curious if they have actual plans for them or if they are just there "in case".

nickkoto
Dec 11, 2008, 10:50 PM
Maybe "in case" a car is starting to have electrical problems, they can ditch it in one of those areas for a technician to look at instead of having it die on the route and blocking the tracks?

Vicelord John
Dec 11, 2008, 11:06 PM
^In case of what? I guess I just don't see what purpose they serve. Would the conductor be driving along and be like..well, no one on this train, let's turn around cuz I'm sure no one is at a stop later on. I mean, I can see it being useful for maybe running a shuttle type service between a couple of points but I just wonder about the locations. So we've established there is one at 11th and one at McKinley. Anyone know of any others?

I can understand planning ahead. I guess I am just curious if they have actual plans for them or if they are just there "in case".

things break, fucker.

PHX31
Dec 11, 2008, 11:12 PM
In the area of downtown, the two way track is separated, so you've got one direction of travel, then a block away you have the other direction of travel. The "turnaround track" at McKinley and 11th Street are locations where the train can turn around for maintenance. All other locations where you have the dual track, there are switches for this purpose.

Vicelord John
Dec 11, 2008, 11:40 PM
what if you have a breakdown at central and washington, you expect them to pull it to mcdowell just to turn around and head back?

use.your.head.

PHX31
Dec 12, 2008, 12:33 AM
huh? mcdowell? you mean mckinley? and yes... they'd pull it to mckinley and turn around and head back to the maintenance and storage facility. why would they just pull it directly backwards against the flow of the system? there would be some/several trains that are already past the MSF that are going with the flow of traffic... you think they'd stop those and somehow make them reverse course?

If anything, they'd probably try to fix it on site rather than "pull it".

hopefull you weren't telling me to use.my.head.

Vicelord John
Dec 12, 2008, 12:42 AM
huh? mcdowell? you mean mckinley? and yes... they'd pull it to mckinley and turn around and head back to the maintenance and storage facility. why would they just pull it directly backwards against the flow of the system? there would be some/several trains that are already past the MSF that are going with the flow of traffic... you think they'd stop those and somehow make them reverse course?

If anything, they'd probably try to fix it on site rather than "pull it".

hopefull you weren't telling me to use.my.head.

No, I meant mcdowell. I was trying to justify the turn around being at mckinley implying if it weren't there, they would have to go all the way to mcdowell. and no, I was telling the person asking why the turnaround is there to use.their.head

exit2lef
Dec 12, 2008, 12:53 AM
The tracks at McKinley and at 11th St. are to be used primarily to keep extra rail cars in reserve during major events. After a D-backs game lets out, for example, those trains would be pulled from the storage areas to allow quick loading of passengers leaving Downtown.

mgmAZCO
Dec 12, 2008, 1:17 AM
I think it's good the train doors don't open automatically. Can you imagine in the heat of the summer, if no one is waiting at the station and the doors open? Or if only a few people get on, and all the doors open when it isn't necessary. Sounds like a smart idea for PHX. Will just take some getting used to on the part of passengers, as far as pushing the button goes.

HX_Guy
Dec 12, 2008, 1:31 AM
Didn't think about the heat and A/C issue but that's an excellent point. Perhaps Phoenix went this model train for that specific reason.

glynnjamin
Dec 12, 2008, 5:19 AM
The tracks at McKinley and at 11th St. are to be used primarily to keep extra rail cars in reserve during major events. After a D-backs game lets out, for example, those trains would be pulled from the storage areas to allow quick loading of passengers leaving Downtown.

See that answer makes sense to me...

The thing about "pulling a broken down train" just doesn't make sense, I'm sorry. I'm using my head, I swear. If the train breaks down at Camelback and 19th Ave, where are they going to put it? Switching tracks doesn't make sense because you're still in the way of some train. So you're telling me that some truck is going to drive on the rail, hook up a tow chain, and pull this thing to McKinley to get it "out of the way"? It seems like the switches are there to just divert trains around broken down ones and that you would just fix the train there. Idk, I'm an idiot, I guess. I just need to see it in practice, I suppose.

Follow up -
Idk if this exists anywhere else, but just north of Fillmore on the south bound tracks of 1st Ave, the track splits into two for about 200 yards or so. Why is that there and why do some of the tracks overlap the left turn lane?

PHX31
Dec 12, 2008, 7:25 AM
well, my collegue was an inspector for the downtown area's light rail construction (line section 3) for the past 3 years, what I posted (in regards to the "turnarounds") is what he told me... so I'll believe him.

electricron
Dec 12, 2008, 3:19 PM
All light rail trains can push or pull disabled trains to the next station to disembark passengers, or all the way to the maintenance yards if required. True, it'll be a reduced speeds, but a disabled light rail train will not necessarily block the tracks for long.

Therefore, the siding reported is for storage. Check out Dallas Dart light rail tracks at Google Earth someday. About every 5 miles or so you'll find storage tracks.

pbenjamin
Dec 12, 2008, 4:17 PM
I think it's good the train doors don't open automatically. Can you imagine in the heat of the summer, if no one is waiting at the station and the doors open? Or if only a few people get on, and all the doors open when it isn't necessary. Sounds like a smart idea for PHX. Will just take some getting used to on the part of passengers, as far as pushing the button goes.

I volunteered to help with the grand opening activities on 12/27. We had about an hour and a half of "training" on all things light rail. What I think I heard was that the doors will open automatically most of the time but that the feature will be disabled when ridership is light, requiring use of the button.

pbenjamin
Dec 12, 2008, 4:37 PM
Idk if this exists anywhere else, but just north of Fillmore on the south bound tracks of 1st Ave, the track splits into two for about 200 yards or so. Why is that there and why do some of the tracks overlap the left turn lane?

Whatever it is, it is badly designed. If you stop at the light in the left turn lane you are right on the tracks. I have stopped a way back (where they should have a pavement stripe) when I have been turning left there. The last time I came through the car ahead of me (who was turning left) saw the tracks and moved over into the next lane to his right to avoid the tracks. This caused a bit of distress to the cars behind him when the light changed but the left turn light was red.

HX_Guy
Dec 12, 2008, 4:55 PM
That's happened to be before too. I got a bit confused until I realized that the set of tracks is for the secondary set of tracks, not the main ones. Either way, they should repaint the left turn lane stop line a bit further back.

Sonoran_Dweller
Dec 12, 2008, 5:09 PM
Regarding the door opening-
I heard that the doors will open automatically during rush hour and other heavy times (major events). During all other times of day to open the door, the little yellow button needs to be pushed. I think I also heard that the reason was to keep the trains cooler in the summer.

glynnjamin
Dec 12, 2008, 6:27 PM
Whatever it is, it is badly designed. If you stop at the light in the left turn lane you are right on the tracks. I have stopped a way back (where they should have a pavement stripe) when I have been turning left there. The last time I came through the car ahead of me (who was turning left) saw the tracks and moved over into the next lane to his right to avoid the tracks. This caused a bit of distress to the cars behind him when the light changed but the left turn light was red.

Glad I'm not the only one confused by those things. The problem with that light is that it won't pick you up if you sit that far back. I've sat through two light progressions before finally just running it because it wouldn't "see" me back behind the tracks.

nickkoto
Dec 13, 2008, 12:33 AM
Regarding the door opening, I saw a very angry editorial in the State Press a few weeks ago from an author who claimed to be a quadriplegic with very limited ability to move his arms. If they have to open the doors at every stop to accomodate someone like him, I think I could live with that.

glynnjamin
Dec 13, 2008, 3:44 PM
^God forbid he just ask someone to push it...

Azndragon837
Dec 14, 2008, 8:27 AM
Just for a LRT speed reference. I was driving home yesterday down central. Passed the LRT just south of Camelback as it was sitting at the station. The LRT was also heading south. I reached my house at 2nd ave & Fillmore about 30 seconds before the LRT passed by. Kind of blew my mind that it could stop every 1/2 mile and still almost beat me home. There was a moment when I thought it was going to get caught at the light but, sure enough, the light changed right as it was pulling up. Quite impressive.

In any event, for those who think LRT is too slow, it is apparent that its speed plus light priority is as fast, if not faster, than driving. This was in light to moderate traffic so I can only imagine it flying by me if I were headed south in the morning instead of at 4pm.

I have to agree with your observation regarding the speed of the trains:

1. I was driving home from work down Camelback from Downtown Scottsdale around 6pm last week. When I approached the Central Ave & Camelback Station, I quickly glanced down Central Ave. to see if there was a train heading north as I was crossing the intersection. I didn't see one.

When I got to the 19th Avenue station about 10 minutes later, all of a sudden a train honks and whizzes by me and stops at the 19th Avenue light. I was pretty surprised how fast it came up on me. It turned north on 19th while I had to wait at the light, while another one was turning onto Camelback. It was pretty sweet.

2. I was jogging earlier this week around downtown in the evening, and as I was running down Central near McKinley, a train was going northbound at a pretty fast speed (35 - 40MPH). It made a cool futuristic sounding hum as it sped by - again...pretty sweet!

-Andrew

NIXPHX77
Dec 14, 2008, 8:56 AM
Having dinner at the Prime (really good Chinese food) on Camelback just west of Central on Thurs nite, we saw almost 20 trains go by in about 1 1/2 hours.
very cool!

tonite free preview rides were offered after the lighting of the city's Xmas (Holiday) tree downtown.

also, Councilman Nowakowski is hosting a free preview ride(s) on
wed. or thurs. for District 7 residents. not sure how they would be able to enforce that...

Tempe_Duck
Dec 14, 2008, 10:25 AM
Having dinner at the Prime (really good Chinese food) on Camelback just west of Central on Thurs nite, we saw almost 20 trains go by in about 1 1/2 hours.
very cool!

tonite free preview rides were offered after the lighting of the city's Xmas (Holiday) tree downtown.

also, Councilman Nowakowski is hosting a free preview ride(s) on
wed. or thurs. for District 7 residents. not sure how they would be able to enforce that...

How would one take advantage of that?

exit2lef
Dec 14, 2008, 1:45 PM
Last night, I took advantage of the free light rail preview rides after the Christmas tree lighting Downtown. I'd been on light rail before as part of the Friends of Transit conference, but it was good to do it again. Can't wait to ride for real in only two weeks.

Photos:

http://picasaweb.google.com/silverbearphx/ChristmasTreeLightingAndLightRailRide#

glynnjamin
Dec 14, 2008, 4:09 PM
Am i the only one who thought the free ride last night was lame? I was pissed we went North to begin with...I want to go across the damn bridge! We didn't even get past McDowell. What gives? Just, get off, cross over, get back on. How lame. Everyone in my car was all "awww" when they said we had to get off.

Also, did anyone else think the incessant clapping was ridiculous? Clap when the train shows up, clap when it leaves, clap when the next train shows up, etc. How much do we suck as a city?

exit2lef
Dec 14, 2008, 4:56 PM
Am i the only one who thought the free ride last night was lame? I was pissed we went North to begin with...I want to go across the damn bridge! We didn't even get past McDowell. What gives? Just, get off, cross over, get back on. How lame. Everyone in my car was all "awww" when they said we had to get off.

Also, did anyone else think the incessant clapping was ridiculous? Clap when the train shows up, clap when it leaves, clap when the next train shows up, etc. How much do we suck as a city?

No good deed goes unpunished. Rides were scheduled at 7, 7:15, and 7:30 to allow to a large number of people to enjoy the experience. Longer runs would have made that experience more difficult and more expensive to provide. Also, I liked the clapping. I think it displayed civic pride and excitement rather than "how much we suck as a city."

Sonoran_Dweller
Dec 15, 2008, 5:01 AM
I don't know if any of you have seen this. It is the METRO Grand Opening guide from Valley Metro.

Check it out: http://view.digipage.net/?userpath=00000001/00005932/00034759/

Take a look at page 13. It talks about what riders need to do on the 27th, it's CRAZY. It says that if a train arriving at a station is full, all passengers must get off to allow new passengers to get on. Does anyone think this is a bit odd?

glynnjamin
Dec 15, 2008, 5:36 AM
No good deed goes unpunished. Rides were scheduled at 7, 7:15, and 7:30 to allow to a large number of people to enjoy the experience. Longer runs would have made that experience more difficult and more expensive to provide. Also, I liked the clapping. I think it displayed civic pride and excitement rather than "how much we suck as a city."

How would it have been more expensive? The train was gonna go all the way to 19th Ave anyways, why couldn't we stay on it? It doesn't cost any more. It's not like the train turned around or anything.

I was fine with the clapping when it pulled up. But when they clapped and said "Next Stop: 19th Ave & Camelback" when the next stop was clearly Roosevelt, it was annoying. It was great to see a decent number of people turn out to ride the bloody thing but I just think clapping is mind-numbingly dull when it comes to sitting on a train. I know that we are amazed by little things in this small town ... but clapping for objects seems sort of silly.

Tempe_Duck
Dec 15, 2008, 5:51 AM
I don't know if any of you have seen this. It is the METRO Grand Opening guide from Valley Metro.

Check it out: http://view.digipage.net/?userpath=00000001/00005932/00034759/

Take a look at page 13. It talks about what riders need to do on the 27th, it's CRAZY. It says that if a train arriving at a station is full, all passengers must get off to allow new passengers to get on. Does anyone think this is a bit odd?


They referred to that when talking about the end stations. They said they won't fill the trains completely at the end stations. I took it to mean than when you arrive at one of the end stations you need to get out, not at other station.

HX_Guy
Dec 15, 2008, 6:03 AM
It says that if a train arriving at a station is full, all passengers must get off to allow new passengers to get on. Does anyone think this is a bit odd?

I understood it to apply only to the end of the line stations, not all the stations. I plan on taking it from Central and Camelback to Mill Ave.

exit2lef
Dec 15, 2008, 1:13 PM
How would it have been more expensive? The train was gonna go all the way to 19th Ave anyways, why couldn't we stay on it? It doesn't cost any more. It's not like the train turned around or anything.

I was fine with the clapping when it pulled up. But when they clapped and said "Next Stop: 19th Ave & Camelback" when the next stop was clearly Roosevelt, it was annoying. It was great to see a decent number of people turn out to ride the bloody thing but I just think clapping is mind-numbingly dull when it comes to sitting on a train. I know that we are amazed by little things in this small town ... but clapping for objects seems sort of silly.

I don't remember anything about going up to 19th Ave. My point is that the longer passengers rode, the more staff time would have been involved. Ultimately, we'll have to disagree about this event, because I think we're approaching it from different perspectives.

exit2lef
Dec 15, 2008, 1:20 PM
I don't know if any of you have seen this. It is the METRO Grand Opening guide from Valley Metro.

Check it out: http://view.digipage.net/?userpath=00000001/00005932/00034759/

Take a look at page 13. It talks about what riders need to do on the 27th, it's CRAZY. It says that if a train arriving at a station is full, all passengers must get off to allow new passengers to get on. Does anyone think this is a bit odd?

Agree with the posts above. It's clear that this rule applies only to the 19th Ave. / Montebello and Sycamore / Main stations. Basically, they don't want people to ride from one end to the other and back again if passengers are waiting to go in the opposite direction. That's why shuttle buses will be used to haul passengers back to the other terminus. This method has been used in other cities to cope with large opening day crowds.

HX_Guy
Dec 16, 2008, 6:07 AM
I heard on the news that the city council will vote on Wednesday to raise the parking meter rates from $0.60/hour to $1.25/hour plus extend the time required from 5pm to 8pm and also to include Saturdays. That's still cheap as hell but better then how lax it was before for a city's downtown.

HX_Guy
Dec 16, 2008, 3:55 PM
Did you guys know they want to extend the light rail to 25th Ave and Mountain View Rd? Yea...I didn't either, and also had no idea where Mountain View was.

According to a report released by MAG of what projects would be ready to roll with a infrastructure stimulus by Obama, one of the items was to extend the light rail from 19th Ave and Dunlap (1st phase) to 25th Ave and Mountain View Rd (2nd phase). Mountain View Rd is a small side street off the I-17...would they build a bridge there to cross over? And then what, because they would run right into the east side of the mall. I don't get it...why not cross on Dunlap and continue west to 35th Ave or whatever.

They apparently also want to build a modern streetcar running from downtown Tempe on Mill Ave to Southern then to Rural Rd.

combusean
Dec 16, 2008, 9:39 PM
ADOT won't give Valley Metro clearance to cross the bridge. It's why, after a design process, the goal was revised to connect it to 19th and Dunlap.

25th Ave is still comfortably on the east side of the 17 tho ...

And the modern streetcar idea is lame. Rural needs a better connection than that.

Where'd you get the list of projects?

HX_Guy
Dec 16, 2008, 9:55 PM
The list doesn't seem to be avilable on AZCentral's website anymore, I have the PDF if you want it though.

I don't understand the crossing the bridge thing though. So light rail will never go further west then 25th Ave?

glynnjamin
Dec 16, 2008, 10:22 PM
If anyone was asking me about how to do the LRT overpass of I-17, I would first defer to the idea of bringing it up Grand or the idea we discussed last week with taking it to the capital and then going north.

If that didn't fly, I'd say just build a nice pedestrian bridge over the freeway from the Circuit City parking lot (which should be turned into the bus stop once The Shitty goes out of business. Have that pedestrian bridge connect GhettroCentre to the LRT stop on the east side of I-17.

Then run the LRT up to Cactus. All of the freeway interchanges have been fixed and redesigned up here except Cactus. Cactus should get a real OVERPASS instead of that floodplain and that overpass should be built to carry LRT cars as well. Then you can run the LRT out to ASU West, Peoria, Arrowhead, etc.

HX_Guy
Dec 16, 2008, 10:44 PM
According to Combusean, ADOT wants to eventually double-deck the I-17, which is why they won't let Metro cross the freeway.

Aside from that, even if you go NW on Grand or west on the I-10 then north, you still need to cross the I-17 at some point or it doesn't make sense. Think about someone living at say 43rd and Bell (if the light rail ever made it that far) and they want to go to Uptown. They would need to take the train all the way south to the I-10, then east to Central, then back north. The trip would be unnecessarily long.

PHX31
Dec 16, 2008, 11:00 PM
/\ why not put the train under the freeway? A slight increase in cost, maybe, but it would seemingly be the easiest crossing and they could double deck the freeway or do whatever they want.

Don B.
Dec 17, 2008, 2:53 PM
I think double-decking I-17 would be the worst idea evar. ADOT needs to pull their head out of their ass and realize that you can't build your way out of congestion. Create alternatives to more freeways - bus rapid transit, light rail, commuter rail, all would do more to relieve congestion than to build a couple more lanes up top.

--don

HX_Guy
Dec 17, 2008, 7:02 PM
Light rail to don Phoenix Suns, NBA All-Star ads
Phoenix Business Journal - by Chris Casacchia

Downtown visitors, commuters and workers can expect to see Phoenix Suns and NBA advertisements on the light rail in the weeks leading up to the NBA All-Star game Feb. 15, reversing a policy enacted more than five years ago prohibiting advertisements during the transportation system’s first year.

Valley Metro Rail Board of Directors voted unanimously Wednesday to direct staff to begin negotiations with the Suns and the NBA to wrap up to four vehicles and two station platforms at Third and Jefferson streets and Third and Washington streets.

The lure of a revenue boost, which could top $25,000 during the six-week trial period, was too much to ignore during a recession and tough budget cycle for city governments.

“The amount of revenue is something we certainly can’t ignore,” said board member and Tempe Mayor Hugh Hallman.

The ruling opens the door for potential advertisements for special events in any of the cities where light rail travels. The light rail system connecting downtown Phoenix and Tempe is scheduled to begin operation Dec. 27.

“I think that could generate a lot of revenue and interest,” said Craig Tindall, board member and attorney for the city of Glendale.

The potential revenue on advertisements for the All-Star game will be earmarked for the city of Phoenix.

HooverDam
Dec 18, 2008, 11:04 AM
Merchants sigh with relief as light rail nearly ready to roll
by Casey Newton - Dec. 18, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
The light-rail system that opens Dec. 27 has remade Central Avenue, creating opportunities for businesses even as construction woes have swept away some old businesses.

Nearly four years after construction began, merchants are welcoming customers back to Phoenix's main thoroughfare. A billion-dollar face lift left it with new landscaping, a series of public-art projects and a host of new businesses hoping to capitalize on the rail system's estimated 26,000 boardings a day.

Even as businesses celebrate the end of construction, they worry about a recession that has led to shuttered storefronts across the country. And for those who survived the detours and construction cones, resentment lingers.

From Camelback Road to Van Buren Street, Central is a mix of old and new.

Newer restaurants such as Switch Bakery and Blue Willo Cafe blend in with landmarks like Durant's and the Westward Ho.

Some merchants new to the area are exuberant about the promise that the system holds.

"Thank God for light rail. It's doubled my business," said Lenny Fleszar, owner of Lenny's Burgers at Central and Thomas Road.

Fleszar was speaking literally. After the Mexican restaurant adjacent to his business closed, Fleszar bought the space and is putting the finishing touches on an expansion that gives his eatery twice as much room.

He plans to open on Saturdays because train operators began stopping in front of his business and coming in to eat.

"We've got burgers good enough to stop a train," Fleszar said.

Newer businesses remain optimistic. For those who survived construction, times remain tough. They made it to the system's opening only to find the local economy in a steep recession.

"We got hit with two hammers: One was the light rail, and the other now is the economy," said Dan Abrams, who leases commercial real estate along the line.

"What's been going on this past year has really had a big negative impact on the businesses, whether they're on the light-rail line or anyplace else."

Dennis Chiesa, owner of the record store Tracks in Wax, is among the construction survivors. He hopes the system lures customers from Tempe and Mesa.

"They may not want to drive, but maybe a little train ride would be OK," said Chiesa, who has been open on Central for more than 25 years. "I'm hoping so. I'm a rail fan."

Not everyone is a fan, though. Among shops that struggled during the past four years, owners express lingering resentment about the city's handling of construction issues.

"If my family hadn't put money in the bank, we'd have been closed three years ago," said David Wimberley, owner of George & Dragon Restaurant.

Before construction began, Wimberley used to serve 125 lunches on a weekday. These days, he said, he serves fewer than 40.

"You could shoot a cannon through here and kill five people," Wimberley said one recent weekday. "And three of them would be employees."

Several businesses along the line have closed during construction, but no one keeps track officially. Some businesses closed for reasons that had nothing to do with light rail, according to their landlords.

Others blame rail.

Martha Craig, who owned Central Christian Supply for 35 years, closed recently after struggling for more than a year. Craig had said that construction woes were killing her business.

Others moved to different locations in hopes of building a new clientele.

Shelli Walker had owned Community Florist, a flower shop near Central and Camelback, for a decade when light-rail construction began.

"Walk-in traffic went to zero," Walker said. "Customers couldn't get to us."

At the same time, she was having difficulty getting her landlord to give her a long-term lease on her space. Last December, she moved to a space near Seventh Avenue and McDowell Road.

"I wish we'd moved here two years ago," Walker said. "This new location is wonderful. I think it is going to be a good location for us in the future. We all just have to buckle down through this economic mess and get through it."

Well Im glad to read Lenny's will be opening on Saturday. Hopefully once the rail starts running we'll see a trend of retail and restaurants opening on weekends and for longer hours.

exit2lef
Dec 18, 2008, 1:50 PM
Has anyone heard about this issue:

http://phoenix.about.com/b/2008/12/17/phoenix-light-rail-accessibility.htm

There are claims circulating that passengers must press a button to open rail car doors during off-peak hours. I don't I've ever encountered that on any rail transit I've used.

PHX31
Dec 18, 2008, 2:25 PM
God I hate that George Wembley douche. George & Dragon is a hole with terrible TVs. The servers are the only redeeming quality, they're always typically very nice. I've been there a few times, mostly because a couple people at my work love it. I'm sick of hearing that idiots voice, I'm glad construction is over so I never have to hear one of his whiny commercials again.

glynnjamin
Dec 18, 2008, 4:03 PM
First off - on the button pushing issue:

Really? We are supposed to all suffer because of one person? Get a helper dog or a stick. There are a lot of things I'm sure he can't do. For $20 I will attach a steel bar to his wheel chair at the yellow button height. He can just run his thing into it. Problem solved, tax payers saved.

Secondly - How is G&D struggling? I drive by there every day on my way home from work and it is always packed. Every friday and saturday night it is packed. How much more business can they expect!? I've only been once. Its a decent place. No real complaints. As long as soccer is on the TV, I'm good.

vertex
Dec 18, 2008, 4:20 PM
Agreed, Wimberley is quite the blowhard. I also find it hard he's losing money. If he is, it's his own damn fault. A business owner with his own shortcomings who still feels the need to somehow spin that around in order to project his own douchey opinions should simply sell his bar to someone more capable.

Anyway, I have Rula Bula. If I have to settle for a place next to light rail that has fish & chips on the menu, it might as well be this one.

Plus, there's no soccer on TV here...

Don B.
Dec 18, 2008, 4:22 PM
Putting an open door sensor on the doors (like the ones you encounter at the grocery store) seems to be the logical choice to me. If no one is near the door (either outside or inside) or approaches it while the train is stopped, the doors stay closed, preserving the air conditioning.

But I suppose that would be too logical, eh?

--don

scottkag
Dec 18, 2008, 4:31 PM
The only rail transit I've been on recently is the San Diego Trolley, and it makes you press a button to open the doors.


I don't I've ever encountered that on any rail transit I've used.

HX_Guy
Dec 18, 2008, 4:42 PM
This could sort of put a damper on things...

They are calling for a 60% of shower on Dec. 27th as another storm system is supposed to move into the Valley. That would suck and would obviously impact the number of people that show up, not to mentioned I'm sure this will be news in a lot of places and video/photos won't exactly look like a place that is supposed to be sunny all the time.

arkhitektor
Dec 18, 2008, 5:01 PM
In Salt Lake and every other light rail system I've ever ridden, you push a button to open the doors. In fact, the only place I've ever seen doors open by themselves is on underground metro systems.

Here, if a handicapped person wants to board, they wait at a raised platform at the end of the station (see pic. below), then an operator opens the doors for them and helps them board:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2489911508_360ee1c3fb.jpg

This is necessary because the floor of the car is higher than the platform and there are three steps just inside the door. I'm not sure if the cars in AZ are low floor and have a different way of boarding the handicapped, but here it works well and the rest of us just push a button to open the doors. I've never heard anybody complain about it.

The more I think about it though, can a wheelchair bound person board a train alone anyway? On our light rail cars and even on our commuter rail trains which have low floors that are even with the platform, an attendant has to place a little ramp to bridge the around 4" gap between the platform and car floor because otherwise the wheels of the wheelchair would get caught in the gap.

Tfom
Dec 18, 2008, 5:04 PM
This could sort of put a damper on things...

They are calling for a 60% of shower on Dec. 27th as another storm system is supposed to move into the Valley. That would suck and would obviously impact the number of people that show up, not to mentioned I'm sure this will be news in a lot of places and video/photos won't exactly look like a place that is supposed to be sunny all the time.

I studied (I almost posted this writing studies instead... that would have made me seem intelligent) meteorology in college and I wouldn't get too worried. The chances of that forecast being right are pretty slim from that far out. If it still looks like that on the 23rd then I would be more concerned.

PHX31
Dec 18, 2008, 5:13 PM
This could sort of put a damper on things...

They are calling for a 60% of shower on Dec. 27th as another storm system is supposed to move into the Valley. That would suck and would obviously impact the number of people that show up, not to mentioned I'm sure this will be news in a lot of places and video/photos won't exactly look like a place that is supposed to be sunny all the time.


Just wondering where you heard this... I didn't study meteorology in school, but I like to think of myself as an amateur weather nerd. Like Tfom said, predicting that far out is very inaccurate, and saying a 60% chance to boot is pretty remarkable. I follow the NWS (NOAA's website) daily and read their forecast discussions daily. I find they're the industry standard and even they aren't saying much of anything about the 27th, especially nothing as specific as a 60% chance (infact they haven't mentioned anything about the Christmas forecast yet, it's too far out). They just mention a possibility of another storm around early/mid next week.

HX_Guy
Dec 18, 2008, 5:20 PM
Just wondering where you heard this...

There was a story on AZCentral.com that Christmas maybe a wet one this year, it talked about the current storm moving out and another one moving in late next week.

I then checked out Weather.com and that had the same information, though not on Christmas, but they call for rain on Friday and Saturday of next week.

exit2lef
Dec 18, 2008, 5:42 PM
The only rail transit I've been on recently is the San Diego Trolley, and it makes you press a button to open the doors.

Thanks for the responses on the door button issue. Most of my experience is with heavy rail systems, so I'm glad to hear from those with more light rail experience.



In Salt Lake and every other light rail system I've ever ridden, you push a button to open the doors. In fact, the only place I've ever seen doors open by themselves is on underground metro systems.

Here, if a handicapped person wants to board, they wait at a raised platform at the end of the station (see pic. below), then an operator opens the doors for them and helps them board:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2489911508_360ee1c3fb.jpg

This is necessary because the floor of the car is higher than the platform and there are three steps just inside the door. I'm not sure if the cars in AZ are low floor and have a different way of boarding the handicapped, but here it works well and the rest of us just push a button to open the doors. I've never heard anybody complain about it.

The more I think about it though, can a wheelchair bound person board a train alone anyway? On our light rail cars and even on our commuter rail trains which have low floors that are even with the platform, an attendant has to place a little ramp to bridge the around 4" gap between the platform and car floor because otherwise the wheels of the wheelchair would get caught in the gap.

The Phoenix rail cars are flush with the station platforms -- no steps and no lifts. It's one of the most ADA-compliant systems I've ever seen, but this issue of how a quadraplegic would press the button seems an exception to an otherwise high level of accessibility. I'm surprised, however, that the person complaining does not have a service dog. Those will be allowed on the trains and could easily be trained to press the button with their paws.

Sekkle
Dec 18, 2008, 6:42 PM
In Salt Lake and every other light rail system I've ever ridden, you push a button to open the doors. In fact, the only place I've ever seen doors open by themselves is on underground metro systems.


Doors open automatically on Portland's light rail. There is also a button that handicapped riders can push that extends a ramp to cover the small gap between the station platform and the LRV, but the doors will open whether or not that button is pushed.

The oldest LRVs here are high-floor and (when they were the only type running) required special loading for disabled riders. All subsequent LRV types have been low-floor. The high-floor cars are still used, but they are no longer equipped to board disabled passengers, so they are always coupled with a low-floor car.

jvbahn
Dec 18, 2008, 7:21 PM
I think the non-stop discussion about quadraplegic access is making a mountain out of a molehill. The discussion would assume that the person would be unable to make it obvious to a driver, or any passengers on board that the door needed to be opened.

It seems to me that we're all just bored and looking for minutiae to discuss until the thing opens.

The disabled question I'm sure played a major role in the design of the system, including the ramps up to the platform, and the grade level entry openings. The disabled community should be pleased that they have a brand-new system where considerations were taken in addressing their needs, unlike the many other systems which are old and never took the disabled in mind.

PHX31
Dec 18, 2008, 7:27 PM
It seems to me that we're all just bored and looking for minutiae to discuss until the thing opens.


HAHAHAHA... ding ding ding!

1.5 weeks can't come soon enough.

KEVINphx
Dec 18, 2008, 8:30 PM
Has anyone heard about this issue:

http://phoenix.about.com/b/2008/12/17/phoenix-light-rail-accessibility.htm

There are claims circulating that passengers must press a button to open rail car doors during off-peak hours. I don't I've ever encountered that on any rail transit I've used.

There are some in Paris that require you to pull down a decade's old metal handle to open the doors! I believe there were also some that required you to push a button. Not that uncommon though!

KEVINphx
Dec 18, 2008, 8:32 PM
Putting an open door sensor on the doors (like the ones you encounter at the grocery store) seems to be the logical choice to me. If no one is near the door (either outside or inside) or approaches it while the train is stopped, the doors stay closed, preserving the air conditioning.

But I suppose that would be too logical, eh?

--don


When the train is crowded, people will be standing in front of the doors anyhow, thus causing the doors to open at every stop no matter if anyone intended to get off at that particular stop.

I'd personally be surprised if they were crowded enough to cause crowding in the entry areas though. lol

Don B.
Dec 18, 2008, 9:02 PM
^ That can be fixed, though, I'm sure. There has to be technological solution to the problem.

--don

HooverDam
Dec 18, 2008, 9:22 PM
Seems like theres at least an article a day on AZCentral about the LRT...

Zero tolerance' for light-rail vandals
by Casey Newton - Dec. 18, 2008 01:07 PM
The Arizona Republic
Riders of Metro light rail will get five days to ride the system for free. But when it comes to vandalizing the trains, there are no freebies.

"There will be zero tolerance," said Tom Simplot, chairman of the Metro board. "The last thing we want is a graffiti-ridden, garbage-strewn light rail system."

The Metro board voted this week to adopt a zero-tolerance policy for violations of its prohibited-conduct ordinance, which is effective in Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa. The ordinance prohibits vandalism, smoking, playing loud music, and other inconsiderate behavior.


Officials warn that first-time violators will be punished beginning on opening day, Dec. 27, receiving fines of between $50 and $500. Some acts of vandalism could be prosecuted criminally.

Anyone who sees someone vandalizing a train should inform a Metro security officer or use one of the call boxes on the train, officials said.

"Call us," said Rick Simonetta, Metro CEO.

I hope they're able to keep it nice looking. Anywho, I can't believe its only 9 days a way, Im honestly a lot more excited for Dec 27th and Dec 25th this year! :P

PhxPavilion
Dec 19, 2008, 10:08 AM
According to the news there have already been people throwing objects at the trains as they passed by. :no:

HX_Guy
Dec 19, 2008, 9:50 PM
Can't believe it's 1 week from opening!

Friday, December 19, 2008, 2:33pm MST | Modified: Friday, December 19, 2008, 2:35pm
Metro light rail plans weekend grand opening events, free rides through Dec. 31
Phoenix Business Journal - by Lynn Ducey

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More than 200,000 people will likely take free rides on the Metro light rail during opening weekend, which will feature celebrations, ribbon cuttings and live music from one end of town to another, Metro executives said.

After more than three years of construction, light rail cars will start carrying passengers Dec. 27. Everyone will ride free through Dec. 31.

Celebrations, live events and music will be featured in downtown Phoenix, Mesa and Tempe, while smaller events and activities will be offered at stations along the 20-mile line.

Large festivities will be held in downtown Phoenix with music, street performers, exhibits and vendor booths, as well as children’s activities and interactive courts provided by the National Basketball Association.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon, U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary Peters, U.S. Reps. Ed Pastor and Harry Mitchell, both D-Ariz., Mesa Mayor Scott Smith and Tempe Mayor Hugh Hallman are expected to kick off Saturday’s events at 8:30 a.m. at the Metro Operations and Maintenance Center on 48th Street just south of Washington Street.

From there, the mayors will return to their respective towns via light rail, where the celebrations will continue. The Mesa event, titled “It All Starts Here,” will be held from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. at the Sycamore Transit Center, near Main Street and Dobson Road. Live music including headliner Grand Funk Railroad and exhibits including a classic car show will be featured.

The Tempe event, titled “Destination: Tempe,” will be held from 9:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. near the Tempe Transportation Center, at Fifth Street and College Avenue. Exhibits, previews of the Insight Bowl and Insight Block Party, and live music with headliner Roger Clyne and the Peacemakers will be on hand.

Phoenix’s celebration, titled “Phoenix Rising: A Downtown Celebration” includes a ribbon-cutting at the newly expanded Phoenix Convention Center, which will debut along with the light rail. That will occur at 10 a.m. on Third Street, north of Washington, under the pedestrian bridge.

Other small events will be held at light rail stops including19th and Montebello avenues; at Campbell and Central avenues, near Central High School; at Central and Thomas Road, near St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center; and at Central and Encanto Boulevard, near the Heard Museum and the Phoenix main library.

While trains will run every 10 minutes, additional cars may be deployed at certain stations or stops to help transport people as needed. Buses will also be on hand to take the departing evening crowds back to their respective train stations and park-and-ride sites, officials said.

Several streets will be closed for the crowds, including Main Street between Sycamore and Dobson in Mesa; Third Street between Monroe and Jefferson streets; Washington Street between Second and Fifth streets; and parts of Third and Fifth streets and sections of College and Forest avenues in downtown Tempe.

For more: www.metrolightrail.org/grandopening ; www.destinationtempe.com and www.mesaaz.gov/lightrailgrandopening .

AZ KID
Dec 19, 2008, 11:23 PM
I am SOOO excited for the grand opening. Sounds like one big party. I also cant wait to see all of the people. Now i have a question. Does any one have any suggestions on where to start? I plan on going to every stop and partake in all of the events. I am only asking because it sounds like its going to be crazy there and i want to make sure i see and do it all.

HX_Guy
Dec 20, 2008, 12:08 AM
I'm going to attend along with my fiance and another couple, planning on just taking the rail from the Uptown station (Central/Camelback) to the Mill Ave station, the rest of the route doesn't really interest me on opening day thought I'll probably check out the whole route sometime soon after it opens.

HX_Guy
Dec 20, 2008, 12:22 AM
Oh yea, by the way, they have extended the hours until 2am for New Years eve. Nice to see that they are flexible.

Sonoran_Dweller
Dec 20, 2008, 12:30 AM
Does anyone know if the general public will be allowed to attend the official grand opening at the Operations and Maintenance Center, or is that only for the 'special' people?

HX_Guy
Dec 20, 2008, 12:36 AM
It is in fact open to the public, as is the Metro Appreciation Dinner the evening before.

METRO Grand Opening will be held on December 27, at 8:00 a.m. located Operations and Maintenance Center, 605 S. 48th St, Phoenix, Arizona.

A quorum of the phoenix city council may be present. This is an event only and not a meeting. No City business will be conducted nor any action taken. This event is open to the public.

For further information, please call Maria Hyatt, Assistant to the City Manager, City Manager’s Office at 602-261-8897.

For reasonable accommodations call Maria Hyatt at Voice/602-261-8897 or TTY/602-534-5500 as early as possible to coordinate needed arrangements.



metro appreciation dinner will be held on December 26, 2008, at 5:00 p.m. located the Sheraton Downtown Phoenix, 340 North 3rd Street, Phoenix, Arizona.

A quorum of the Phoenix City council may be present. This is an event only and not a meeting. No City business will be conducted nor any action taken. This event is open to the public.

For further information, please call Maria Hyatt, Assistant to the City Manager, City Manager’s Office at 602-261-8897.

For reasonable accommodations call Maria Hyatt at Voice/602-261-8897 or TTY/602-534-5500 as early as possible to coordinate needed arrangements.

PHX31
Dec 20, 2008, 12:47 AM
I will be there on Saturday with my gf... I hope to be able to check out a couple of the stops and their celebrations, but mostly I want to see the time it is going to take to walk from my house to the station (hopefully around 10 minutes or less) and I want to ride across the bridge to Mill Avenue. After that initial day, I'll see the rest of the line.

HooverDam
Dec 20, 2008, 1:37 AM
Two buddies of mine and possibly my folks and I are going to ride the whole thing. My plan is to hopefully arrive at Christown at 10 A.M. (unlikely since everyone in my life moves at a snails pace) and ride to downtown and hop off to look at the Convention Center and the events downtown. I then plan to get back on, ride to Tempe and get off to check out the transit center and the farmers market, then Ill hop back on and ride to Mesa and get linner at the new Chinese center there on Dobson and Main.

Also I had to go downtown this evening to do a few things, so I decided to stop by the Central Transit station. Metros website says you can get a hard copy of the events happening at each station there but none of the employees seemed to know what in the heck I was talking about. Maybe Tempes transit center actually has it?

HX_Guy
Dec 20, 2008, 4:36 AM
Sort of related...has anyone here ever been to Portland's? Im thinking of maybe having lunch there on Saturday since there is a stop right there. Is it any good? Anything recommended on the menu?