[Western Spaghetti]

With the prospect of extra money coming to the Calgary and Edmonton, what are some of the things you would put it towards?

Premier ponies up $1.4 billion property tax payout to municipalities

By James Stevenson, The Canadian Press


Premier Ed Stelmach talks to reporters after meeting with his caucus at Calgary's McDougall Centre yesterday. (CARLOS AMAT/Sun Media)
CALGARY -- Struggling from unprecedented growth pressures, Alberta's municipalities will get an injection of $1.4 billion worth of collected property tax annually over the next three years, says Premier Ed Stelmach.

Lives up to promise

Stelmach said yesterday he will live up to a campaign promise made during his successful leadership bid for Alberta's ruling Tory party last November. That includes returning $1.4 billion deducted from the education portion of property taxes to help pay for much-needed infrastructure.

"The idea here is to help municipalities deal with all these growth pressures," Stelmach said yesterday afternoon following a two-day retreat for the new cabinet to plan strategy for the coming year.

Edmonton city Coun. Kim Krushell said it was welcome news. But she wondered whether there would be any strings attached.



"I'd like more details, of course, as to how exactly he's going to unveil it and whether there are any strings attached to the dollars," Krushell told the Sun last night.

"We need more meat on the bone."

Mayor Stephen Mandel has said the money will help the city make ends meet.

Councillors have talked about the need for more money for things like roads, rec centres and affordable housing.

Stelmach said while Alberta's two largest cities, Calgary and Edmonton, are trying to grapple with soaring population growth as a result of the province's longest economic boom on record, many other cities and towns have the same problems.

His promise to return equivalent property tax dollars came during the Tory leadership campaign late last year amid mounting pressure from cities for more provincial funding.

Equivalent amount

But the premier said that rather than face constitutional challenges for simply not collecting the school board portion of the property tax, he said an equivalent amount - about $1.4 billion - would be returned annually by 2009.

Stelmach said the amount to be returned in 2007 would be revealed later this spring in the new government's first budget, but the program would aim to bring roughly one-third this year.

"We'll see what fiscal room we have available. We have a few things to work through."

Billions of dollars worth of roads, schools and hospitals are required throughout Alberta as the population increases by thousands of people each month, drawn by a critical labour shortage and a massive construction boom.

Stelmach said that along with extra dollars, it was critical that the province look at ways to reduce soaring costs on large projects.

"That's so critical right now - it's really hitting us in the knees and whatever money we seem to be putting into capital, a lot of it is consumed on the inflation side."

- With files from Frank Landry

[The Chemist]

Calgary - assuming this is a long term deal and not just for 2 or 3 years:

W and SE leg of the LRT
Expansion of all existing stations to 4 car standard
Complete 7th Ave upgrade

SW Connector accross Weaselhead (tunnel preferred, but if too costly a high level bridge instead) - the dealings with the Natives are taking FAR too long and we should just bite the bullet and build the damn thing ourselves.

Completion of Crowchild trail to Freeway status (interchanges at 5th, Kensington, and 24th; rebuild of Crowchild/Bow/Memorial interchange to allow for 3 through lanes in both directions plus access to SB Crowchild from downtown).

[Wooster]

Calgary's share I believe is about $450 million.

Top priorities:

LRT - this includes building out the next three legs of the system, downtown subways, expanding to a 4 car system, station upgrades, a lot more LRVs.

A meaningful affordable housing strategy - affordability is becoming more and more of an issue everyday.

Centre City Plan Implementation - We have a big plan with some high ambitions. Here is an opportunity to put it into action. Create the West Park, transportation hub, parks and streets improvements.

[Surferguy]

LRT LRT LRT LRT LRT...

I vote for more trains

[Reesonov]

WLRT please. Thank you.

[Doug]

All to municipal debt reduction. Alberta already spends more on infrastructure in absolute dollars than any other province. Given the overheated construction market, any additional funding would simply inflate already approved projects. The best course is to use the money to pay down debt and then proceed with new projects in 2 or 3 years once the construction market calms down.

My fear is that if for example $10B in projects are already underway, throwing another $1.6B will only drive the costs up on the already approved projects by close to $1.6B as resources are already fully allocated.

[big W]

We would probably continue with LRT expansion. So once the SLRT is complete the NLRT and WLRT will start. No stopage in expansion is what I think we will see.

[Reesonov]

All to municipal debt reduction. Alberta already spends more on infrastructure in absolute dollars than any other province. Given the overheated construction market, any additional funding would simply inflate already approved projects. The best course is to use the money to pay down debt and then proceed with new projects in 2 or 3 years once the construction market calms down.

My fear is that if for example $10B in projects are already underway, throwing another $1.6B will only drive the costs up on the already approved projects by close to $1.6B as resources are already fully allocated.

But that doesn't sound like very much fun. :(

[MichaelS]

So is this just a three year program? It is difficult to fully grasp what he means based on the wording. Are we to get 1/3 of the 1.4 billion (we as in all municipalities) in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and then that is it? Or, is this going to be 1.4 billion annually for many years to come? If it is just the three year deal and Calgary only gets $450 million, that would not be enough to fully build even one of the expanded LRT legs. It would certainly help a lot, but not as much as we need.

[Doug]

But that doesn't sound like very much fun. :(

It's not, but the first rule of project managment is that if all of your exisiting projects are behind schedule and over budget, you do not take on more.

[mersar]

So is this just a three year program? It is difficult to fully grasp what he means based on the wording. Are we to get 1/3 of the 1.4 billion (we as in all municipalities) in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and then that is it? Or, is this going to be 1.4 billion annually for many years to come?

Thats the confusing part, each story has it worded slightly differently. The actual audio quote I heard last night of Premier Stelmach was its spread over 3 years, so thats sounding like it may be the real plan. We will need to wait for the budget to see for sure however.

[Wooster]

All to municipal debt reduction. Alberta already spends more on infrastructure in absolute dollars than any other province. Given the overheated construction market, any additional funding would simply inflate already approved projects. The best course is to use the money to pay down debt and then proceed with new projects in 2 or 3 years once the construction market calms down.

My fear is that if for example $10B in projects are already underway, throwing another $1.6B will only drive the costs up on the already approved projects by close to $1.6B as resources are already fully allocated.

Like I've said in this debate before, planning of lines will take 2-3 years anyway. Earmark the money now, then actually spend it when it is time to build (when existing projects are done). It is not like it could or would break ground in 2007.

I do agree that reducing municipal debt is important. Servicing debt takes up a lot of our budget. Once it is paid off, we will hopefully have enough sustainable funding to continue building infrastructure with little or no debt. Just buy projects with money we actuall have.

[Wooster]

So is this just a three year program? It is difficult to fully grasp what he means based on the wording. Are we to get 1/3 of the 1.4 billion (we as in all municipalities) in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and then that is it? Or, is this going to be 1.4 billion annually for many years to come? If it is just the three year deal and Calgary only gets $450 million, that would not be enough to fully build even one of the expanded LRT legs. It would certainly help a lot, but not as much as we need.

I think this answers you question. By 2009, the $1.4 billion will be returned anually. It is being ramped up betweeen now and then.

But the premier said that rather than face constitutional challenges for simply not collecting the school board portion of the property tax, he said an equivalent amount - about $1.4 billion - would be returned annually by 2009.

[CMD UW]

It's not, but the first rule of project managment is that if all of your exisiting projects are behind schedule and over budget, you do not take on more
/\ I agree, however, it also depends on how much debt your leveraging and cash flows you have at your disposal.

[h0twired]

SE LRT - Before Deerfoot gets any worse.

[JAH]

Great news.. both Edm and Calgary are in major need for infrastructure improvements. For Edm, the 23rd ave interchange needs to be done ASAP, maybe this funding can help with that.

If I was premier, one idea I would recommend would be to use some of the extra surplus to help train unemployed people in some sort of trades skill. Alberta is in some serious need of trade workers and there are many people who would love to work but dont have the money/resources available to get the training for a career. Why not use some of the surplus on training these people?

[Coldrsx]

Edmonton:

23ave interchange
complete NE/NW anthony henday
work on improving yellowhead
LRT LRT LRT - WLRT and NLRT is needed today, not 20 yrs from now.
oh and LRT TO YEG:>

[srperrycgy]

WestLRT of course. That's the priority of City Council (and mine). Between the $450 million that could be allocated and some existing sources of revenue, it can be done. Like I said in the CTrain thread, why not try hitting up the Feds for $100 or $200 million of the cost. Its a long shot, but why not? That way, the remaining funds can be dedicated to other projects.

[Wooster]

As part of any federal environment/ infrastructure program, they should fund a number of urban transit projects in the major cities. It would solve all sorts of problems at the same time.Give the biggest 6 or 9 major money to expand their transit systems. It would also help the tories in the big cities by doing this. It is a no-brainer politically in my opinion. It is something tangible cites would be getting - talk about huge political points.

[lubicon]

Calgary - assuming this is a long term deal and not just for 2 or 3 years:

W and SE leg of the LRT
Expansion of all existing stations to 4 car standard
Complete 7th Ave upgrade

SW Connector accross Weaselhead (tunnel preferred, but if too costly a high level bridge instead) - the dealings with the Natives are taking FAR too long and we should just bite the bullet and build the damn thing ourselves.

Completion of Crowchild trail to Freeway status (interchanges at 5th, Kensington, and 24th; rebuild of Crowchild/Bow/Memorial interchange to allow for 3 through lanes in both directions plus access to SB Crowchild from downtown).

Agreed with you on all points Chemist.

Also for Calgary:
1. Interchanges on 16th Ave at: Bowfort Road and on the east side of town.
2. Complete the ring road aroudn the entire city - with NO traffic lights
3. Come back to the NW portion of Stoney Trail and finish it properly with interchanges.

Edmonton:
1. Complete the ring road around the entire city - with NO traffic lights
2. Remove all lights along Yellowhead and replcae with interchanges.
3. Come back to the SW portion of AHD and finish it properly with interchanges.

Rest of Alberta

1. Twin #63 all the way from Edmonton to Ft Mac
2. Build the #2 bypass around Grande Prairie
3. Medicine Hat - interchanges on #1 instead of lights
4. Strathmore - interchanges on #1, or bypass around town entirely. They are putting in more lights and intersections instead of removing them!!!!!
5. Twin #1 to the BC border (I know it's a Federal project but what the heck)
6. make the QE2 3 lanes each direction

[Habanero]

It seems like LRT is the big thing for both cities.

for Calgary I'd like to see more LRT expansion, but one thing really needed is more parking at the stations.

Top few things

1) West LRT

2) More parking at all LRT stations

3) Ring Road on north side of Calgary. This would help tremendously in getting all of the trucks and traffic off of 16th ave. Not only would it help 16th ave develop into something good, it would also help alleviate traffic issues.

4) Get east village development going

[big W]

Agreed with you on all points Chemist.

Also for Calgary:
1. Interchanges on 16th Ave at: Bowfort Road and on the east side of town.
2. Complete the ring road aroudn the entire city - with NO traffic lights
3. Come back to the NW portion of Stoney Trail and finish it properly with interchanges.

Edmonton:
1. Complete the ring road around the entire city - with NO traffic lights
2. Remove all lights along Yellowhead and replcae with interchanges.
3. Come back to the SW portion of AHD and finish it properly with interchanges.

Rest of Alberta

1. Twin #63 all the way from Edmonton to Ft Mac
2. Build the #2 bypass around Grande Prairie
3. Medicine Hat - interchanges on #1 instead of lights
4. Strathmore - interchanges on #1, or bypass around town entirely. They are putting in more lights and intersections instead of removing them!!!!!
5. Twin #1 to the BC border (I know it's a Federal project but what the heck)
6. make the QE2 3 lanes each direction

I would also add twinning HWY16 all the way to the BC border (again the Feds through the park as with HWY1) with bypasses through Edson and Hinton (and any other towns I may have missed).
But then the province would be building proper freeways. We can't do that. Thats asking for too much man.

[mersar]

LRt (west and SE) top my list, followed by the ring road, even if its just the highway 8 to transcanada, and the full NE/E portion until something can be determined for the SW part.

And for sure, removing what will be the sole traffic light on Stoney at Nosehill. That intersection was a huge oversight when they built it, especially since they spent a decent amount to build the passage underneath for the wildlife in the coulee. It should have been built as a full interchange in the first place, or at least an underpass with limited access to Nosehill from Stoney

[Blue_Cypress]

The S.E. LRT. Have you guys been down there lately?

There are whole conglomerations of neighbourhoods I didn't know existed!

We can't really expand west any further. We're going east. area growth-- not political favortism --should determine where we lay steel to next.

[frinkprof]

The S.E. LRT. Have you guys been down there lately?

There are whole conglomerations of neighbourhoods I didn't know existed!

We can't really expand west any further. We're going east. area growth-- not political favortism --should determine where we lay steel to next.
I agree that the SE, along with north central, is one of the highest areas of growth. However, although the numbers haven't been produced yet, the SELRT will cost quite a bit more than the WLRT for the following reasons:

1. Underground portion involving a new right of way downtown.

2. Quite a few more bridge structures including crossing the Elbow River and over Deerfoot.

3. Almost twice as many stations (if they take it all the way to 22X instead of stopping at Douglasdale).

4. More track.


Also, the West LRT has been in planning for much longer than the SELRT. The corridor ridership has also been strengthened with BRT, and the planning has begun for TOD possibilities.

Of course, I would like to see both. But if I had to choose one at this point, it would be the West LRT. I do know the pains of living the the SE as well as the West, and although the SE is maybe hurting more as far as quality of transit goes, I would still say that WLRT is the better project to fund right now

I think that BRT has to be implemented in the SE and a similar planning process started for TOD and development of the LRT corridor as soon as possible.

[Kevin_foster]

How bout a gigantic Stalin-esque Golden Statue in both cities to mark the coming of our new Overlord, Stelmach????

That way, in 10 years from now, we can pull it down with ropes.

[Greygor]

First off, below grade LRT in the core, including beltline. That would open up 7th ave to vehicle traffic. I would say do the same to the NE leg, but that line, and entire area in general is such a mess, I wouldn't even know where to start. A subway up center st. West and SE legs are a must! And lets bring some people in who actually know how to design and route these new lines. Who ever designed and ultimately approved the NE leg and some of the at grade intersections should be shot!

[Blue_Cypress]

no no no! you've got it all wrong! whoever approved the budget for that line should be shot! how are you supposed to design something that's any good if you don't have any money?

[mersar]

I don't see 7th ave losing its transit only status any time in the future. While it is quite likely that 8th will eventually be tunneled, there is no non-disruptive way to move 7th (nor to say tunnel it down 6th, which would cause massive chaos which we will end up seeing in the next few years while the parkade for the Bow is excavated out under 6th). Running the SE into the core underground is an absolute must, the suggestions of running it above grade in the beltline are stupid at best. Unfortunately the SE line is many years off yet, but if this money does pull through at least we'll be one step closer with the WLRT.

[Distill3d]

okay, well seeing as how everyone else wants LRT and Ringroads, i'll step out of the box and say:

the Calgary - Edmonton Bullet Train! build the f-in thing already!! i want it only for my own selfish reasons (to live and play in Edmonton, and work in Calgary).



okay, so aside from that, the over-needed WLRT and SELRT extentions in Calgary are a must. once we have that done, then lets worry about ring roads.

[dmuzika]

Also for Calgary:
1. Interchanges on 16th Ave at: Bowfort Road and on the east side of town.
2. Complete the ring road aroudn the entire city - with NO traffic lights
3. Come back to the NW portion of Stoney Trail and finish it properly with interchanges.

4. Interchanges all along Glenmore Trail with NO traffic lights; improve the interchange at Deerfoot Trail.
5. Reroute the Trans Canada Hwy by constructing a Hwy 16/16A-like connector joining with Hwy 560 (Glenmore Trail) east of Calgary, following Glenmore, then rejoining the current alignment via either Sarcee Trail or Stoney Trail.

Edmonton:
1. Complete the ring road around the entire city - with NO traffic lights
2. Remove all lights along Yellowhead and replcae with interchanges.
3. Come back to the SW portion of AHD and finish it properly with interchanges.

4. Construct a decent bridge connecting Calgary Trail/Gateway Blvd with downtown Edmonton.
5. Complete the inner ring road; 170 St and Wayne Gretzkey Drive/75 St
6. Improve Whitemud Drive by constructing an interchange at 17 St, reconstructing the Terwillegar Drive interchange (no more left exit/entrance), widening the Quensel Bridge, and increasing the speed limit to 90-100 km/h.

Rest of Alberta

1. Twin #63 all the way from Edmonton to Ft Mac
2. Build the #2 bypass around Grande Prairie
3. Medicine Hat - interchanges on #1 instead of lights
4. Strathmore - interchanges on #1, or bypass around town entirely. They are putting in more lights and intersections instead of removing them!!!!!
5. Twin #1 to the BC border (I know it's a Federal project but what the heck)
6. make the QE2 3 lanes each direction

7. Bypasses for Hwy 2 towns south of Calgary - Nanton, Clarsholm, and Fort Macleod; make the CANMEX Corredor all Hwy 2 (renumbering Hwys 4 & 43).
8. Get rid of the at-grade country road intersections that still exist on Hwy 2 (near Red Deer and between Bowden and Carstairs).
9. Construct the Lloydminster bypass (joint with Saskatchewan & federal govt.)