[raggedy13]

Hi all, just curious what new transit line/extension you would like to see after the obvious priorities of Canada/Evergreen/Broadway, regardless of the technology. You can vote on either what you think the region needs most, what you know Translink sees as upcoming priorities, or just what your own selfish desires warrant. Most importantly, please discuss why you chose what you chose. Hopefully the voting options are enough to satisfy most.

[squeezied]

i voted for "Vancouver - Other"

specifically, 41st ave. apparently after the canada line is built, there will be a b-line on 41st ave. but then again, there already is an express bus there... but anyhow, considering the trend how b-lines are eventually replaced by a rapid transit line, i think it's pretty cool in that one day there may be a subway running along 41st ave from joyce station to ubc! when the millenium line extenstion gets crowded, i think it would be appropiate to consider a line running down 41st.

[fever]

Aside from streetcars, which aren't really rapid transit, it would probably be Surrey's turn after those three are done. If North Van was willing to accept more growth, I'd pick it for being one of the last regional town centres to be connected to the rapid transit network. The others are Langley and Maple Ridge.

[The_Henry_Man]

I voted "Vancouver- Other" as the M-Line needs to be extended out westwards all the way to UBC ASAP given that its capacity is already choking (if that counts). Then, the E-Line can be extended from King George Station east to Guildford, then turn south to Fleetwood.

[tintinium]

Hastings. From the Racetrack to the new development to the PNE to the Coliseum.

Either that or a DMU along Marine Drive South.

PS. I don't include M-Line West. That's just phase 3 of the M-Line.

[officedweller]

I figure it's Surrey/Langley's turn next. That's where the most population growth is located.

The North Shore wopuld be nice, but the population base doesn't justify the expense (unless the Lions Gate Bridge is used).

[tokie]

I voted Abbotsford, even though technically it's not part of the GVRD. Some kind of light-rail needs to be run from Abbotsford to the Skytrain in Surrey, or even to Vancouver, making sure to pass the psychological speed barrier of people in their cars (120km/h at least). It could even go in the middle of Highway 1 for the most part, with stations at large intersections throughout Abbotsford (probably only one, at Mt Lehman), Langley, Surrey.

[Coldrsx]

Ubc Ubc Ubc....

[mezzanine]

Surrey/Langley.

Service to south fraser is horrible, yet it is probably the fastest growing region in the GVRD. Even the bus system seems stuck in the 1960s wrt routes - at the very least a b-line is needed, but a quantuum leap can be made by using the interurban ROW, implementing surrey's LRT plan for king george/104 and perhaps expanding skytrain, with associated TOD.

[Bert]

I'd like to see Hastings get it to rejuvenate the street and densify.

[Canadian Mind]

Langely and surrey majorly, but I'd like to see something go into north van and possibly to horseshoe bay...

to bad we didn't have somethign go through the mountains to whistler eh?

[smasher000]

HASTINGS! cuz i live there!

[SpongeG]

i think surrey/langley via guildford would be good

is it possible to run the skytrain under and along where those cuts are for the big power lines that criss cross surrey? - there is a good east one for a bit - it might at least make for easier construction as not much is in the path

[cornholio]

From 22nd st station to Cambie street along marine way to conect Surrey, NE, and New West to Richmond, the Airport and south Vancouver. Eventualy this line could be extended further east under 6th av in New West to Braid station to bi pass the sky bridge which at some point will become congested as the area and surrey grow plus the extension would hit uptown new west which is already dense and has huge growth potential with the hundreds of aging 3-4 story apartment building. This the can also extend along lougheed to Coquitlam center once the NE line is busy enough and south Coquitlam densifies. To the west the line could eventualy continue through marpole and up along Arbutus street to downtown Vancouver once the Canada line becomes busy enough and if the Arbutus corridor densifies as it should and could.

Surrey also defenitly needs a extension preferably from surrey central via Guildford center to the highway where you can create a major park and ride facility and in the future all the way to the Golden ears bridge and to Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows. And another extension south towards Newton to create a major bus hub and eventualy extend to White Rock and Langley.

In a fantasy world I would have a maglev line from downtown Van to Chiliwack with stations in Downtown, Metrotown, Surrey center, Langley, Abotsford airport, FWU Abotsford and Chiliwack and a peak hour station at Broadway and Comercial. Then I would build out transit from these points and densify them like crazy.

[renthefinn]

Excluding M-Line's western extension, I'd say Hastings, it's very active along Hastings and it used to have a street car AFIK? Plus it'll help improve the DES. IMO it's the most logical next extension. With the burbs though, I highly doubt it'll be the next, and it may be unlikley that it's ever built.

I don't see a point to rewarding the outerlying communities for their rapid development of low density single family home developments with instantly giving them transit. They may eventually get it, but if we give it to them in the next 15 years it'll probably keep pushing development farther into the valley and it'll take a long time for those areas to densify to a point where they can make transit pay for itself. It's not like we're talking about geographically constrained municipalities here. Burnaby has densified along the Skytrain routes, but it doesn't have a lot of other places to grow. Surrey and Langley have plenty of space, and until they put some sort of policies in place to try to limit any growth to already urbanized areas, I think it's a waste to give them transit, cause they probably wont use it!

We should build up, not out!

[Nutterbug]

I voted "Vancouver- Other" as the M-Line needs to be extended out westwards all the way to UBC ASAP given that its capacity is already choking (if that counts). Then, the E-Line can be extended from King George Station east to Guildford, then turn south to Fleetwood.

"...after the obvious priorities of Canada/Evergreen/Broadway". I believe that excludes the M-Line extension you mention here.

As for a Surrey E-Line extension, I think building it to Newton would make more sense, so that it can closely serve both the eastward (Cloverdale, Newton) and southward (White Rock) communities.

[ssiguy]

I think they should cancel the Evergreen line in its current form.

As far as NEW lines I voted Hastings. I think its tied with North Shore but they should NEVER build a SkyTrain tio North Shore unless it is part of a new tunnel. Too damn expensive by itself.

The Hastings ext should go from Waterfront all the way to Willington and then head south to Lougheed/Brentwood all the way south to Metrotown.
There is an old rail line from Hastings to Brentwood so the ROW is already there.
By extending it further south it would also help that area, especially around BCIT.
The area of Hastings to Kootenay Loop is also quite populated and has great massive development from Main to Nanaimo as much is old industrial and connects with Commercial Drive and it also could serve the Ports.
Also the Commercial Drive station could be a great spot for WCE new station instead of having just one station in the whole city.......Waterfront.

[SFUVancouver]

Following the Millennium line extension, which should go all the way to UBC from day one, the next major transit project should be to get the City of Vancouver's downtown streetcar system up and running.

All of this is already planned.
Phase 0 - Modern streetcar infrastructure built from Granville Island to Mainstreet-Science World Skytrain station. This is happening as part of the Southeast False Creek athlete's village build out.
Phase 1 - Extend from Mainstreet-Science World Skytrain to Waterfront Station.
Phase 2 - Extend from Waterfront stn to Stanley Park
Phase 2.5 - Spurline from Mainstreet-Science World into Yaletown along Pacific Blvd.

All of this is on the books, Phases 0 - 2 have already been approved by Council, pending funding and agreement from Translink, which is dragging its heels.

Phase 3 should be to extend the streetcar line up along the Arbutus Corridor, down along the CPR right of way along marine drive, connecting the East Fraserlands development in the process, and terminating at New Westminster Quay.

This would provide a critical east-west link along the Fraser River and connect the Canada Line to the Expo-Millennium line without the need to basically go downtown to Broadway to cross over.

As far as building up the regional mass transport network this would fill a gaping whole. Also, because there is so little population density along Marine Drive, save for the 10K people that the East Fraser Lands development will have upon build out in a decade, the route connecting the Canada Line to the Expo/Millennium Line would be quite quick, think B-Line without traffic.

Also, compared to the other mode of mass transit, the street car network would be cheap. As far as cost-benefit ratios go and neighbourhood friendliness to mass transit infrastructure, the streetcar cannot be beat.

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/images/Phase0.gif
Image c/o City of Vancouver http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engsvcs/transport/streetcar/index.htm

[MolsonExport]

Keremeos

[smasher000]

Is a streetcar mostly like a bus?

[mr.x2]

Is a streetcar mostly like a bus?

Varies from system to system imo. For e.g., the streetcar in Toronto is very much like a bus on rails. But nevertheless, it's still better than a bus.....and much bigger than a bus.

[cornholio]

Excluding M-Line's western extension, I'd say Hastings, it's very active along Hastings and it used to have a street car AFIK? Plus it'll help improve the DES. IMO it's the most logical next extension. With the burbs though, I highly doubt it'll be the next, and it may be unlikley that it's ever built.

I don't see a point to rewarding the outerlying communities for their rapid development of low density single family home developments with instantly giving them transit. They may eventually get it, but if we give it to them in the next 15 years it'll probably keep pushing development farther into the valley and it'll take a long time for those areas to densify to a point where they can make transit pay for itself. It's not like we're talking about geographically constrained municipalities here. Burnaby has densified along the Skytrain routes, but it doesn't have a lot of other places to grow. Surrey and Langley have plenty of space, and until they put some sort of policies in place to try to limit any growth to already urbanized areas, I think it's a waste to give them transit, cause they probably wont use it!

We should build up, not out!

South Burnaby has huge potential for growth and same with south Vancouver. Hell just the fraser lands are suposed to house 14,000 people or so in 20 years and that little chunk of land is tiny compared to all the vacant and under utilized land on the burnaby side which stretches from boundary all the way to prety much 22nd street station in new westminster. Thats why I feel that would be the best rapid transit line to be built after not to mention that it would conect Richmond, the airport and south van with everything east of it like new west tri cities surrey langley etc.

[Distill3d]

i'm going out on a lib here, but if the evergreen line is built, at a certain point, it pretty much follows the lougheed highway (highway 7) once it gets into Coquitlam. so in theory, wouldn't it be easy to make a line all the way out to Mission (assuming of course it follows the West Coast Express right of way), then over the bridge into Abbotsford (and then, with a prayer, and some careful planning, into Chilliwack)

few extra stops along the way (after coquitlam):

Pitt Meadows > Maple Ridge/Haney > Mission > Abbotsford Central

my pipe dream also includes:

Abbotsford Sumas > Yarrow > Vedder Crossing > Sardis > Chilliwack

i realise i may be dreaming, or this may be better left as an extension of the West Coast Express.

[mezzanine]

^ there are a few problems with population growth at Big Bend though -
I suspect it is on the fraser flood plain, the region is another patch of increasingly rare industrial land in the GVRD, a GVRD regional garbage incinerator is nearby and I *think* the rail line is still used frequently by industry (a low level bridge to Richmond juts out there).

I think fraserlands in vancouver by comparison has industrial neighbours that use their property less intensively, ie., less intrustion to residential. There is also more surrounding residential there and Champlain Mall/com. centre is nearby.

[BattleAxe]

Excluding M-Line's western extension, I'd say Hastings, it's very active along Hastings and it used to have a street car AFIK? Plus it'll help improve the DES. IMO it's the most logical next extension. With the burbs though, I highly doubt it'll be the next, and it may be unlikley that it's ever built.

I don't see a point to rewarding the outerlying communities for their rapid development of low density single family home developments with instantly giving them transit. They may eventually get it, but if we give it to them in the next 15 years it'll probably keep pushing development farther into the valley and it'll take a long time for those areas to densify to a point where they can make transit pay for itself. It's not like we're talking about geographically constrained municipalities here. Burnaby has densified along the Skytrain routes, but it doesn't have a lot of other places to grow. Surrey and Langley have plenty of space, and until they put some sort of policies in place to try to limit any growth to already urbanized areas, I think it's a waste to give them transit, cause they probably wont use it!

We should build up, not out!

The way i see it is that people in Surrey have been contributing millions upon millions of tax dollars towards the GVRD and Translink for many years. Rapid Transit has been terrible out here for a very long time. Surrey is the second largest city in B.C. Housing prices are too high in north of the Fraser River and are getting to be quite expensive in Surrey. First time home buyers are being priced out of the Vancouver, Burnaby and Richmond markets, so i wouldn't expect the housing market south of the Fraser to slow down anytime soon. People in Surrey have contributed and supported Sky Train expansion north of the Fraser for years, now its our turn to be on the receiving end and have some of our own tax dollars invested here in Surrey. Its also time for people to start thinking on a regional basis and stop thinking on a city to city basis. The GVRD needs to opperate all together as one and we need to find a way to move people from all over the GVRD as quikly and efficiently as we can. The economy of the region doesn't have boundries. So i say that your remark about " not rewarding " Surrey is absolutely rediculous and extremely ignorant. We are taxpayers aswell, and before you go writing a post like that, you should have a better understanding as to the economics of the region.

Oh and one last thing, every morning if you take the skytrain out of Surrey as i did when i was attending Vancouver Community college 7 years ago, every Sky Train car was full before getting to Columbia Street Station. That was 7 years ago, and i hear that its far more busy today. So to say that people out here will not use the Sky Train system, clearly shows that you have no clue about what you are saying.:yes:

[SFUVancouver]

Transit south of the Fraser is woeful and the abrupt end of the Expo Line at King George station is unforgivable. Citizens south of the Fraser have been contributing operational revenue to Translink without seeing enough service. However I caution against interpreting ongoing contributions of operating revenue as being the same as buying into the capital budget for major projects.

Translink has two ledgers and everything we put into Translink ends up being divided into these two, with operational receiving nearly all of it. The operational ledger is mostly apolitical. It simply serves to fund what has come out of the capital budget in the past. The capital budget, on the other hand is explicitly political. The capital budget decides what goes where and then the operational budget is adjusted to fund the new service hours. However most of the capital budget does not come from the standard Translink revenue streams like fares, ads, property taxes, etc., but rather from borrowing or transfers from the Province or Federal Government. These ad hoc contributions from senior government are the result of political calculations and tend to gravitate towards high-profile projects like SkyTrain, the new electric trolleys, large bulk purchases of buses, etc.

The political reality is that the municipalities north of the Fraser get more political attention from government for the time being. While unfair, it does correspond to these areas having greater transit ridership while also being closer to the City of Vancouver, Western Canada's flagship city.

Yes, the SkyTrains coming out of Surrey are full but the trains arriving north of the Fraser, let alone in Vancouver, are full and everybody thereafter has to cram onto full trains. The 99 B-line has 60,000+ riders a day and routinely pass entire stops full of people despite running almost bumper to bumper. This is why more trains have been ordered and why the Broadway Rapid Transit extension is being planned. But we only got into this position because of two decades of investment in service in Vancouver and Burnaby, and not entirely because people in these cities are more innately inclined to use transit.

It is true that the City of Vancouver is better designed to accommodate and foster transit but the same cannot be said for Burnaby, yet the SkyTrain overcomes the crippling limitations an automobile-scale city. Once you're off the SkyTrain corridors, with the exception of the streetcar-suburb-scaled Hastings corridor, ridership in Burnaby is nothing to be impressed with. Therefore it is the investment in infrastructure that matters most.

This brings this rambling post back to the absurdity of SkyTrain ending at King George and the politics of the capital budget. We need to build the new lines in Vancouver where they are desperately needed and help foster a stronger provincial economy, but they are also absolutely needed in the surrounding municipalities, whether SkyTrain, LRT, BRT, or streetcars. We need to grow the capital budget of Translink to let more projects go ahead.

We need to also increase the pressure from citizens South of the Fraser to let their politicians understand that they need to invest in new service and infrastructure. It'll probably mean higher borrowing costs and possibly higher taxes but we need to do it if for no other reason than to better prepare the automobile-scaled parts of our region for the crippling realities of peak oil which will keep raising transportation costs. These communities are already vulnerable to price shocks in energy in a way that Vancouver or even Burnaby is not.

[Jared]

I voted Vancouver - Other, although technically it wouldnt just be Vancouver. I'd like to see something run E-W in South Vancouver, either along Marine Drive or 41st, which could also connect the Canada line to the Expo line.


A SkyTrain extention to Guilford may also be a good idea depending on how the area develops.


Langley/Abbotsford are too far to be time effective for SkyTrain. Commuter rail would be better in this situation.

[crazyjoeda]

I think the next Transit Line after Broadway/NE should be an extention of the Expo Line towards Newton, I see that as a relatively inexpensive route with a lot of potential.

[The_Henry_Man]

I think the next Transit Line after Broadway/NE should be an extention of the Expo Line towards Newton, I see that as a relatively inexpensive route with a lot of potential.

Or Expo Line can go to Guildford and then swing south towards Fleetwood.
Newton can be one of the major stations for the 2nd WCE line towards Abbotsford. Newton and King George stns can be connected by a B-Line type (which can itself run from White Rock to Surrey Central).

[Hot Rod]

^ I agree Henry.

But perhaps Expo could split and have one direction go toward Guildford and the other continue going south then maybe hook into Delta/WR.

[SpongeG]

i think it would be better to go to guildford than over the #1 to port kells and back down into langley over to cloverdale and back up towards newton and over to strawberry hill/north delta and either back to surrey centre or scott road - creating a big circle route through surrey/langley/north delta

not all people on transit are wanting or needint go go to downtown vancouver

[Bert]

I think the city of Surrey might be releasing something sometime soon. According to this TOR (http://www.surrey.ca/NR/rdonlyres/C3178F16-47C2-41AE-B1CA-39E1EE79C19C/0/CityCentreTransportationTORFINAL.pdf) for Surrey Centre transportation servicing, the final report was due by July 2007.

[fever]

Here's a map of the proposals so far (with some of my ideas thrown in).. you could add a connection between Guildford and Fleetwood as well, but it seems like too much of a roundabout route

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=49.157236,-122.818222&spn=0.121469,0.32135&z=12&om=1&msid=110156521428780940974.0004378dbca127da5d935

[deasine]

I don't live in Surrey, but this is what I see if there should be an extension of SkyTrain:

http://members.shaw.ca/clauf.upload/sk1.png

Of course, Guilford Town Centre Can be extended.

[mr.x2]

^ i'm not sure if that's a good idea. you'd lower the overall system frequency even more (considering the Expo Line's frequency is already split in two with the M-Line at Columbia).

not to mention that most of SkyTrain's traffic in Surrey is headed north of the Fraser, you'd have a lot of empty trains and crowded platforms. i don't think the Guildford to 72 Avenue spur line is a good idea.

[tintinium]

^ i'm not sure if that's a good idea. you'd lower the overall system frequency even more (considering the Expo Line's frequency is already split in two with the M-Line at Columbia).

not to mention that most of SkyTrain's traffic in Surrey is headed north of the Fraser, you'd have a lot of empty trains and crowded platforms. i don't think the Guildford to 72 Avenue spur line is a good idea.

I think you've got it backwards. The expo line south of the Fraser will never be at 100% capacity as long as it is interlined with the M-Line. By adding a train that doesn't cross the fraser, we would be ADDING capacity and improving frequencies within Surrey, not take it away.

There are a LOT of people who travel just from Guildford to Surrey Central and vice versa. There's a bus every few minutes on 104th. Guildford would become a new terminus for some of the Langley buses meaning they don't have to travel through more traffic, and many Langley residents aren't going downtown.

[Nutterbug]

Here's my vision of how a Guildford spur (in orange) can be worked into the system, provided the Evergreen is made a Skytrain.

http://members.shaw.ca/billk/skytrainmap.gif

Of course, Guilford Town Centre Can be extended.

NO MORE EASTWARD SPRAWL!!

[tintinium]

Here's my vision of how a Guildford spur (in orange) can be worked into the system, provided the Evergreen is made a Skytrain.

http://members.shaw.ca/billk/skytrainmap.gif



NO MORE EASTWARD SPRAWL!!

BEST. MAP. EVER.

Seriously. I love it.

Would you have the trains reverse directions at Columbia? It seems that would be FAR TOO confusing, even for regular riders. I mean, there are still people who get confused at how the M-Line and Expo lines work.

[The_Henry_Man]

I think ideally, there shouldn't be any interlining of two or more lines on the same route.

[Nutterbug]

BEST. MAP. EVER.

Seriously. I love it.

Would you have the trains reverse directions at Columbia? It seems that would be FAR TOO confusing, even for regular riders. I mean, there are still people who get confused at how the M-Line and Expo lines work.

Why not? I'm sure the people will eventually get used to it.

What's more, the green and orange lines can branch apart at Coquitlam Station to one going towards PoCo and the other going towards Douglas College.

[SpongeG]

wow we really need to baby transit riders here

most city systems involve transfers etc.

some of the transfers in London are a good 5 minute walk between lines and you have to change levels etc etc

[mr.x2]

awesome map Nutterbug. i love the orange line.

[deasine]

Why not? I'm sure the people will eventually get used to it.

I completely disagree with this statement. Plannes of an urban modern network must keep in mind the easiness of a metro for commuters and tourists. "eventually people get used to it" is very naive. Talking about hte easiness of our SkyTrain system, I would only give a 6/10 because:

A) Trains going to different destinations
B) Inconsistant signage (expo vs. millennium)
C) Missing signage (Commerical Drive)
D) Bad Messages that do not explain Transfers (they could say something like, "The next station is Broadway. Connecting Commercial Drive Station SkyTrain Millennium Line and the 99-B Line).

If we were to add the orange line in that form, it will just make the network even more confusing... =S

Now my line is different from Nutterbug's approach. From the many studies TransLink has done, most of the commuters in the South of Fraser travel within the region. Thus, my line allows passengers from Guilford Town Centre (large bus hub in the future?) travelling to other parts of Surrey such as the Newton without having to make a transfer.

But otherwise, I would prefer Nutterbug's approach as it would look really nice on the map =)

[Nutterbug]

I completely disagree with this statement. Plannes of an urban modern network must keep in mind the easiness of a metro for commuters and tourists. "eventually people get used to it" is very naive. Talking about hte easiness of our SkyTrain system, I would only give a 6/10 because:

A) Trains going to different destinations
B) Inconsistant signage (expo vs. millennium)
C) Missing signage (Commerical Drive)
D) Bad Messages that do not explain Transfers (they could say something like, "The next station is Broadway. Connecting Commercial Drive Station SkyTrain Millennium Line and the 99-B Line).

If we were to add the orange line in that form, it will just make the network even more confusing... =S

Is it really hard to remember which platform to stand on to catch a train to which destination?

If it's still a problem, and if backing in and out will be too much of a complication and time waster, then skip Columbia Stn. and have it join the M-Line at a new station near the old Woodlands site (where there's a long stretch without a station till Sapperton anyways).

Now my line is different from Nutterbug's approach. From the many studies TransLink has done, most of the commuters in the South of Fraser travel within the region. Thus, my line allows passengers from Guilford Town Centre (large bus hub in the future?) travelling to other parts of Surrey such as the Newton without having to make a transfer.

Alleviating traffic on the bridges is also a priority, no?

[tintinium]

Tis true, but in reality, the way the system is set up right now, it just wouldn't work well. First of all can you imagine someone getting on at Columbia station with the first train going to Coquitlam, the next one going to Surrey Guildford, the next one going to Commercial Drive and the next one going to Surrey King George?

They would be better to built another platform or another line. Built it to go across the supposed allowance on the Port Mann for Transit to Coquitlam if you want a one-seat right... and serve POCO while you're at it.

Observe this Crude Map... (http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=116561339153403595720.000437aae0b43998ad75b&z=11&om=1)

[The_Henry_Man]

Tis true, but in reality, the way the system is set up right now, it just wouldn't work well. First of all can you imagine someone getting on at Columbia station with the first train going to Coquitlam, the next one going to Surrey Guildford, the next one going to Commercial Drive and the next one going to Surrey King George?

They would be better to built another platform or another line. Built it to go across the supposed allowance on the Port Mann for Transit to Coquitlam if you want a one-seat right... and serve POCO while you're at it.

Observe this Crude Map... (http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=116561339153403595720.000437aae0b43998ad75b&z=11&om=1)

BRAVO!! Clever idea. I've never thought about the looping of Evergreen Line v via Port Mann to Guildford/Surrey Central. Your proposal for the Evergreen Line looks like the shape of an ear. :D

Please send this idea to Malcolm Brodie to see what he thinks about this. Another good rationale for Evergreen Line to be Skytrain (good connectivity and integration with the Skytrain network connecting Coq and Surrey)

[tintinium]

Doesn't necessarily need to be Skytrain though. If the PMC is LRT, then an LRT extension would make a lot of sense, as a LOT of the route could follow ROWs without crossings... and it would T-Junction at Surrey Central.

No one's going to travel downtown from Surrey via PoCo so it would be rare that people would need to transfer... as much of the traffic would be between Coquitlam Poco and Surrey.

A person wouldn't take the "EAR" line to SFU for example... and if Coquitlamite wanted to go to anywhere in Surrey or White Rock it's 0 or 1 transfers, which there might be anyway if it were skytrain.

While you're at it, you'd have to run commuter rail out to Langley... to appease the rest of Metro Vancouver.

[officedweller]

I like the ear line - it is also independent of capacity on the Expo Line.

Since both the Guilford Line and the Evergreen Line are currently expected to be LRT - I don't see why it can't be LRT as it would make the Evergreen Line less of an orphan, create a network and could eventually link Pitt Meadow/Maple Ridge to Surrey Centre more directly than going through Port Moody - which serves the original intent of the "T-Line" in the Livable Region Strategic Plan.

I also think the Expo Line jog to Surrey Memorial Hospital makes sense, as there seems to be an open ROW in place.

http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/surrey/2006/syh2006_186.jpg

[SpongeG]

how about a line that branches off to Guidlford and than over to Pitt meadows and back west to Coquitlam centre to hook up with the evergreen line and than the other branch goes to newton etc and over into langley township

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/spongeg/LowerMainlandMap-NW_new.jpg

[officedweller]

That's a bit circuitous and ignores the LRT convertability of the twinned Port Mann.

Ultimately, LRT systems with radial nodes at:
@ Coquitlam Town Centre (branches to Lougheed Town Cntre/Port Moody, to Pitt Meadows/Maple Ridge and to Burke Mountain); and
@ Surrey City Centre (with braches to Newton and to Guildford)
- linked by one line that crosses the Port Mann - would be best.
They could also share a maintenance yard.

Nice aerial of the area from 2004:

http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/port_coquitlam/2004/pqh2004_060.jpg

[G-Man]

I voted for the Tsawwassen Ferries, because well you asked what I wanted and that line would do the most for Victoria so there!

[deasine]

Nutterbug, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your version of the orange line is bad. Any expansion to our SkyTrain network is a good thing =)

I wouldn't mind the Evergreen Line if it will connect to Surrey...

Now good news regarding 'easiness' of our SkyTrain system. Either today or VERY RECENTLY, they have updated the SkyTrain system's computer narrator. At Broadway Station, it will say "The next station is, Broadway. Transfer point to the Millennium line" and at Commercial Drive Station, it will say "The next station is, Commercial Drive. Transfer point to the Expo line. Passengers to Downtown Vancouver, please change." I'm not sure about Waterfront and Columbia yet. Hopefully they will also say the entire station name soon, like "Stadium - Chinatown", etc. etc.

Edit: They are still updating some SkyTrains...

[Bert]

Doesn't necessarily need to be Skytrain though. If the PMC is LRT, then an LRT extension would make a lot of sense, as a LOT of the route could follow ROWs without crossings... and it would T-Junction at Surrey Central.

No one's going to travel downtown from Surrey via PoCo so it would be rare that people would need to transfer... as much of the traffic would be between Coquitlam Poco and Surrey.

A person wouldn't take the "EAR" line to SFU for example... and if Coquitlamite wanted to go to anywhere in Surrey or White Rock it's 0 or 1 transfers, which there might be anyway if it were skytrain.

While you're at it, you'd have to run commuter rail out to Langley... to appease the rest of Metro Vancouver.
Of all the routes so far, I like this ear line the best. But I wouldn't rule out Skytrain technology for it (I know you're not saying that). It would save a ten minute transfer for people going from Coquitlam to Vancouver as well as for people going from Vancouver toward Guildford if the Expo line were to split at Surrey Central.

What did you use to draw on the Google map, by the way? (EDIT: nevermind... I see it now: create a new map under the "My Maps" tab of Google Maps)

As for people worrying about complicated routes, I bet Translink could solve it for $20 million or so. They just need to install more TVs at each station (shared cost with the advertising company) and make some software so when the train announcement comes up, the screen highlights the route that the arriving train will be taking.

[deasine]

^Well they are planning to install TVs, not necessarly on the platforms though...

I just figured if the orange line goes to columbia, then to Coquitlam, it may slow the freqeuncy of trains unless it goes to another platform.

I swear messages on the SkyTrain have to be louder. And there should be some on the platforms annoucing the train entering the station, just like the MTR. Something like at Columbia, "The train to King George is now arriving. Passengers going to Surrey, please take this train."

I've been talking too much lately =S

[clooless]

^Well they are planning to install TVs, not necessarly on the platforms though...

I just figured if the orange line goes to columbia, then to Coquitlam, it may slow the freqeuncy of trains unless it goes to another platform.

I swear messages on the SkyTrain have to be louder. And there should be some on the platforms annoucing the train entering the station, just like the MTR. Something like at Columbia, "The train to King George is now arriving. Passengers going to Surrey, please take this train."

I've been talking too much lately =S

If you think the Skytain announcements are inaudible you should hear the quality of the station announcements here on Calgary's C-Train; they're absolutely pathetic. One must have superhearing to understand the garbled mess that comes out of the speakers, if they're announced at all.

While the Skytrain announcements could be a touch louder, they're at least audible.

[fever]

I too like the Ear Line. I've cut it into two in this map, which includes pretty much anything that might be possible

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=110156521428780940974.0004378dbca127da5d935&ll=49.179908,-122.735138&spn=0.486555,1.2854&t=k&z=10&om=1


One thing that I think Translink could do to make the Expo and M Lines more understandable is to choose one name for Commercial-Broadway. Having two names for the same station is confusing. Instead, the two lines could share a station name, like East Van Station or anything not a street name, and the platforms could be named after the cross street on the line.

[SpongeG]

there are two stations at broadway and commercial -how do you figure there is only one?

[SpongeG]

That's a bit circuitous and ignores the LRT convertability of the twinned Port Mann.

Ultimately, LRT systems with radial nodes at:
@ Coquitlam Town Centre (branches to Lougheed Town Cntre/Port Moody, to Pitt Meadows/Maple Ridge and to Burke Mountain); and
@ Surrey City Centre (with braches to Newton and to Guildford)
- linked by one line that crosses the Port Mann - would be best.
They could also share a maintenance yard.

Nice aerial of the area from 2004:

http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/port_coquitlam/2004/pqh2004_060.jpg

thats sort of the point - a circular type line serving coquitlam and surrey - it would help cut down on traffic as there are a lot of people who only commute between the two areas and never even need to go into vancouver

[officedweller]

I meant that routing it across Port Mann is more direct between Coquitlam and Surrey than having all passengers pass through Pitt Meadows and Barnston Island (btw that's not Barnston in the pic, Barnston is further east). The travel time would be longer for everyone by doing your s-curve. Feeder lines would better reach the fringes.

[officedweller]

there are two stations at broadway and commercial -how do you figure there is only one?

In other cities, a transfer station usually only carries one name, even if the platforms are far apart. (i.e. Spadina Station in Toronto)
- and even Waterfront Station on the Canada Line and the Expo Line will have the same name - despite similar walking distances from the platforms and having to exit and re-enter fare paid zones, like Broadway & Commercial.

[officedweller]

Posted by Mr. X over at SSC from Gordon Price's blog:


MAJOR EVERGREEN LINE/GATEWAY PROJECT UPDATE

According to Gordon Price, this is coming from a very reliable source:
http://pricetags.wordpress.com


Regarding the Evergreen Line, a mayor of an eastern municipality is convinced an announcement is coming soon. Perhaps at the UBCM. The mayor also thinks that the Evergreen Line will take the southwest route along Lougheed AND a branch will head off over the Port Mann to Guildford (maybe further).

I wouldn’t be surprised if rail goes to Walnut Grove and then down 200th to Willowbrook and Langley Centre. Jordan Bateman, a Langley councillor and Liberal insider has been pushing light rail on 200th.

There is massive development being planned along the Lougheed United Boulevard corridor included Fraser Mills and Riverview. Both United and Lougheed are lined with low density retail and industrial development which Wilson seems keen on redeveloping.

The southwest route is significantly less expensive than the northwest route due to the lack of tunnelling. If the construction of the Guildford branch is concurrent with the highway expansion, the cost to Coquitlam Centre and Guildford would be similar of the northwest route to just Coquitlam Centre.

The southwest route also means there is a old Canada Line tunnel boring machine sitting around that could be used for the Millennium Line extension. It also means that the Evergreen Line won’t be going through Port Moody which might be why Trassolini is not very happy.

It seems odd in the RFP that they are building the space for light rail now. This is an extra expense that will not increase the revenue in the first few years of operation. Rail over the bridge both in the short and long term will likely generate more revenue than using the two lanes reserved for light rail for general purpose traffic.

Rail also protects project revenue against increases in gas prices and TDM measures designed to reduce automobile use because as car use and revenue goes down, rail use and revenue would go up.

Since most of the opposition to the expansion is coming from Vancouver and Burnaby, the province might also choose to delay the expansion west of Coquitlam.

It also wouldn’t surprise me if the Gateway Program is moved over to the new TransLink. It always seemed rather cumbersome to have both Ministry of Transportation and TransLink responsible for roads in the region. This could be the real reason why Falcon is rejigging TransLink.

Again all of this is rumor and guesswork. Given Campbell’s ability to outmanoeuvre the opposition, none of this would surprise me at all.

Map posted by Mr. X over at SSC:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/866/lrtmaplk0.pngGreen = original Evergreen Line route, probably now canceled
Red = probably what is now being proposed for the Evergreen Line, to be part of the Gateway program
Blue = proposed bus corridor by Translink and City of Surrey, will be LRT in the future

an edited version of paradigm4's map that starts from Lougheed.

[argon007]

i voted for "Vancouver - Other"

specifically, 41st ave. apparently after the canada line is built, there will be a b-line on 41st ave. but then again, there already is an express bus there... but anyhow, considering the trend how b-lines are eventually replaced by a rapid transit line, i think it's pretty cool in that one day there may be a subway running along 41st ave from joyce station to ubc! when the millenium line extenstion gets crowded, i think it would be appropiate to consider a line running down 41st.

I hope that B-Line extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station, because

1. BCIT student who is from vancouver will go to school by
a. the bus route 41 (joyce station) and transfer the skytrain (metrotown station) and 130.
b. the bus route 49 (metrotown) and transfer 130.
c. the bus route 25 (i still hope it more frequency at night)

2. BCIT student who is living Richmond will go to school by taking the bus route 410 to 22 st. station and transfering the skytrain (metrotown station). Then taking 130.

it is inconvienience and waste the students' time when the B-Line 91 is not extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station.

although it is on the plan of the future 5 years, I still hope it will come true.

[Nutterbug]

130 should also be converted into a B-Line.

[argon007]

130 should also be converted into a B-Line.

Why? why do you think?
i think it is enough when B-Line 91 Extension is open.

[deasine]

I hope that B-Line extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station, because

1. BCIT student who is from vancouver will go to school by
a. the bus route 41 (joyce station) and transfer the skytrain (metrotown station) and 130.
b. the bus route 49 (metrotown) and transfer 130.
c. the bus route 25 (i still hope it more frequency at night)

2. BCIT student who is living Richmond will go to school by taking the bus route 410 to 22 st. station and transfering the skytrain (metrotown station). Then taking 130.

it is inconvienience and waste the students' time when the B-Line 91 is not extend to BCIT Burnaby Campus or Brentwood Station.

although it is on the plan of the future 5 years, I still hope it will come true.

Why not take 430 to Metrotown Station directly, then take 130... but during morning rush hours.. it might not be the best choice? I never travell across Knight St. bridge during the morning rush so I'm not sure how it performs then... but it looks horrible from Global 1.

Oh Random note: Global 1 is apparently still flying above Vancouver during News Hour Final!

[Nutterbug]

Why? why do you think?
i think it is enough when B-Line 91 Extension is open.

Because it connects some major high traffic transfer and destination points (Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Kootenay Loop, Phibbs Exchange).

[tintinium]

Yeah, BCIT Burnaby is a bit quite inconvenient to transit, despite it being in the centre of things.

There also isn't a CLEAR path of how the best way to get there is. A B-Line would make it a no-brainer for most. I assume it could go down Joyce and then Moscrop to BCIT.

Question is, how well does the Joyce Bus-loop handle the bendy-buses.

Excellent for car drivers though... right off the freeway.

[deasine]

^Well the actual loop itself can't have any articulated buses since there isn't enough space. I heard there was some kind of expansion before.

But if the B-Line was to extend to Brentwood and reach BCIT then it wouldn't matter 'cuz the B-Line just needs to continue down Joyce Road...

[argon007]

Why not take 430 to Metrotown Station directly, then take 130... but during morning rush hours.. it might not be the best choice? I never travell across Knight St. bridge during the morning rush so I'm not sure how it performs then... but it looks horrible from Global 1.

Oh Random note: Global 1 is apparently still flying above Vancouver during News Hour Final!

However, at the night there is no 430.
how can the BCIT part-time students who live in Richmond go home at night?

25-B-Line 98?
130-49-B-Line 98?
130-skytrain-410?
130-skytrain-B-Line 98?
130-skytrain-100-B-Line 98?

anyway, i hope the B-Line 91 extends to BCIT or brentwood station especially at night...

it is not also a good idea to take 430 at 3:00-6:00, because the big traffic jam comes on that time near the brigdeport interchange to knight street bridge.

[tintinium]

If they're going to extend it they'll take it to Brentwood. That way they can also get ridership from all of North Burnaby to UBC, perhaps lessening the load on the 99 B-line as people take that route instead of staying on until commercial.

[AKA-007]

After Gordon Campbells announcement on January 14th, the major routes proposed are most likely going to be fulfilled.

It will be interesting to see what will be coming next with rapid transit (post 2020). We will be needing it badly by then. We need those new lines now, not in 12 years. This city will only grow and new demands will be formed.

I'm thinking of a millenium/expo expansion down hastings. The track already exists from waterfront station. All there is to do is tunnel under gastown and place the stations. From there, the track could possibly split into millenium/expo again to serve multiple purposes. (I'm thinking 2030 by now) It could have one branch going into burnaby and making a cut N/S through the center of the loop created by the millenium line. that line could connect with metrotown area. The other branch could be made to serve the North Shore over the second narrows or farther on the Hastings area.
(a similar idea was posted on another skytrain related article (Millennium line West (commercial to UBC) translink study - page 2 - post #37 by eduardo88)) http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=133576&page=2

[officedweller]

I think it's quite likely that the end of the Expo Line would - eventually - end up crossing to the North Shore.

[AKA-007]

I can see at least one line eventually going north. The two narrows are the most likely candidates with the second narrows being the more favourable one(population on both sides of it). Of course, there could be a tunnel under the inlet if the topography worked in favor of it.

I won't be getting my hopes up for a line there anytime soon. I'd like to see it go to hastings area and then a b-line spanning the north shore with a terminus based on how far the line goes (phibbs exchange has the 210/211/214 express to downtown, and the slower city busses 28 and 130 to Joyce and Metrotown.) Some form of expansion would be nice, even if it's a line from downtown to hastings PNE/Highway area.

North Van needs the population to get a line though. So far, the only area that is expanding is lower Lonsdale because of the waterfront and seabus. the rest of the city and district don't really want to expand too much in fear that we won't get any new infrastructure regardless of any expansion. It costs too much to put another bridge across the inlet and there aren't many places to do it. I could see a rapid transit expansion happening in North Van if it was coordinated with densification.

What's on my wish list is a tunnel from lonsdale to downtown under the inlet. make it 2-3 minutes across and run it off of the canada line, then branch it at lonsdale and run it east/west. Expand the expo line to hastings and split it there having one line go to the North Shore and one line going through burnaby.

[mr.x2]

I won't be getting my hopes up for a line there anytime soon. I'd like to see it go to hastings area and then a b-line spanning the north shore with a terminus based on how far the line goes (phibbs exchange has the 210/211/214 express to downtown, and the slower city busses 28 and 130 to Joyce and Metrotown.) Some form of expansion would be nice, even if it's a line from downtown to hastings PNE/Highway area.


Don't forget the NIMBY's. They are against a new bus maintenance centre because of fears of increased traffic....and now, the site is a Costco (probably even more traffic). Then, there's that ship-looking condo tower at Lonsdale, NIMBY's are at it again. And most recently, NIMBY's against any expansion of the Capilano Suspension Bridge facilities and attractions. Nevermind, a SkyTrain expansion to their neighbourhood.

I agree. I thought one thing that was missing with the 2020 transit plan was rapid bus in the North Shore, possibly from Central West Vancouver to Central North Vancouver, with a major stop at Lonsdale.

[AKA-007]

Don't forget the NIMBY's. They are against a new bus maintenance centre because of fears of increased traffic....and now, the site is a Costco (probably even more traffic). Then, there's that ship-looking condo tower at Lonsdale, NIMBY's are at it again. And most recently, NIMBY's against any expansion of the Capilano Suspension Bridge facilities and attractions. Nevermind, a SkyTrain expansion to their neighbourhood.

I have to agree with you here. North and West van have a really high NIMBY population. That will probably hold back the entire area from being expanded, which might be a good thing if those NIMBY's won't allow for more bridges and bus depots.

[officedweller]

As mentioned, North Van is not a growth concentration area and the population may take a very long time to get to the levels required for rapid transit.

[G-Slice]

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9881/vanmapvy3.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vanmapvy3.jpg)

AHEM without further ado, a fantasy map. Vancouver in 2050!

I don't really think the green line Langley-Coquitlam Centre-UBC routing works... but just an idea. I much prefer the Langley-Maillardville-UBC route. Still keeping the current Coquitlam Centre-Lougheed Centre-UBC stretch, of course.

I'm also on the fence with the routing for the new (hyper extended) White Rock-New Westminster-West End-Kitsilano-Oakridge-Brentwood Expo Line. Should it pass through Joyce or Metrotown? Joyce to me seems a more logical route but we can't ignore the potential of Metrotown as a huge station, considering the amount of traffic it gets even now...

Well let's discuss! Whoo hoo fantasy maps.

[Rusty Gull]

Don't forget the NIMBY's. They are against a new bus maintenance centre because of fears of increased traffic....and now, the site is a Costco (probably even more traffic).

Actually, much to the chagrin of the residents who chased out the bus facility, the site is now slated to be a "waste management facility".

Say goodbye to those noisy buses. And say hello to Mr. Floatie. :koko:

[mr.x2]

Actually, much to the chagrin of the residents who chased out the bus facility, the site is now slated to be a "waste management facility".

Say goodbye to those noisy buses. And say hello to Mr. Floatie. :koko:

Well, they deserved it.:D :cheers: :notacrook: :tup:

[G-Slice]

Those goddamned Norgate people. Jesus Christ.

On the subject of the North Shore, though. Although most of the North Shore isn't going to grow very quickly, the potential of the entire Lonsdale corridor to densify is still there. Unlike the rest of the North Shore, Lonsdale is surrounded by decently tall towers up until around 17th St. There are still a bunch going up as I'm sure you're all aware, and there is very little opposition in the neighbourhood since the area has had tall buildings since the 80s. Even where there aren't tall buildings, there are a lot of the three and four story apartments common in South Granville and Kitsilano. On the whole, this part of North Vancouver does pretty well in terms of density.

I have to say, Lonsdale to me really FEELS like a centre of some significance. Lots of foot activity, major destinations along it (Lonsdale Quay, Lions Gate Hospital) and a lot of more minor ones (City Hall/Library Complex, two recreation centres). What's more, it's relatively far away from bridges into the city, which would bring even further appeal to a new transit tunnel built underneath the inlet.

A lot of people advocate building transit over the Second Narrows or the Lions Gate. It seems to me that the benefit from the (probably fairly significant) savings would be more than offset by the futility of building rapid transit going both from and to relatively unimportant destinations. The Lions Gate alignment makes way more sense than the Second Narrows one (really AKA-007?), but ultimately, let's build some NEW infrastructure people. The core of the North Shore should be connected as directly as possible to the core of the entire region.

[djh]

If you build it they will come.

And then guess what happens on the North Shore mountains? You know that really ugly development creep that we can see from Vancouver, as they gradually log the mountains and build houses higher and higher up...?

So even though it would be nice to develop the North Shore, if the current development style is the future then I would prefer not. However, if city hall forces development of high-density condos (like around Lonsdale) and makes it prohibitively expensive to build 1/2 acre mansions in the hillls, then great.

[Rusty Gull]

Just FYI, djh, there are three different municipalities in play here. There is West Vancouver, North Vancouver District, and City of North Vancouver. Of the three, the City of North Vancouver has been a proponent of high-density development over the years -- witness Lower Lonsdale, or the entire Lonsdale corridor for that matter. The District of North Vancouver, on the other hand, has been slower to embrace density... although some of the developments in Lynn Valley look to be a start.

Finally, West Vancouver definitely dances to a different drummer when it comes to planning and land use.

[deasine]

I guess that's why they are trying to start their own streetcar system.

[DubbleD]

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&msa=0&msid=101783879275263494364.0004444991cfc63133af9&ll=49.191577,-122.588196&spn=0.585164,1.505127&z=10

Thoughts?

[eduardo88]

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&msa=0&msid=101783879275263494364.0004444991cfc63133af9&ll=49.191577,-122.588196&spn=0.585164,1.505127&z=10

Thoughts?

Looks alright, but i think SkyTrain should be extended all the way to Langley, don't really think the North Shore needs a rapid transit line (not in the next 15-20 anyway), and i'm not too sure about your cicle line.

I've made my own map. http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=114711244571479505306.0004445007e68404e52fb

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g99/erivero89/TransLinkmap.jpg

What I've done is created:
* Downtown/Arbutus Streetcar line,
* Expo Line extention with spurs to Langley City and Newton
* Millenium Line extention to UBC, and removed it from looping to downtown (would not be needed with Expo Line expanded capacity) so it terminates at Columbia
* Evergreen Line as SkyTrain, however instead of it going to UBC, i've made it follow the M-Line route until Clark Dr, where it would follow the Grandview ROW into DT and then under Hastings until Waterfront Station
* Double-tracked WCE line using Bombardier TALENT trainsets (like Ottawa's O-Train)
* Commuter line to Abbotsford along Hwy 1 and then ROW above Burnaby Lake then joining WCE route at Second Narrows, which would be quite feasible having the trains run in the middle of Hwy 1 which has no at grade crossings allowing train to gain alot of speed (would use same trainsets as WCE)

The Bombardier TALENT trains the commuter lines would use look like this:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g99/erivero89/bombardiertalent.jpg

[officedweller]

Other cities have shown that highway ROWs make poor locations for rapid transit because the median stations are not walkable or in dense areas. In addition, the median on the TCH will be disappearing with the widening for the Gateway project. If the twinned Port Mann is used for LRT service, the line should diverge from the highway ROW to serve more populated/developable areas close by, rather than staying in the highway ROW.
I think the old interurban line would be a better choice south of the Fraser - but would require a new rail bridge at New West to allow frequent service across the Fraser River.

++++++++++++

Guess its time to haul out the old Province newspaper articles again - dating from 1990. So remember that these
PREDATE Translink, the LRSP, the Westcoast Express and the M-Line.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8996/provincearticlemarch199mp2.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5149/provincearticlemarch199mx5.jpg

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7104/provincearticlemarch199az4.jpg

[paradigm4]

Other cities have shown that highway ROWs make poor locations for rapid transit because the median stations are not walkable or in dense areas. In addition, the median on the TCH will be disappearing with the widening for the Gateway project. If the twinned Port Mann is used for LRT service, the line should diverge from the highway ROW to serve more populated/developable areas close by, rather than staying in the highway ROW.
I think the old interurban line would be a better choice south of the Fraser - but would require a new rail bridge at New West to allow frequent service across the Fraser River.

Completely agree. That's why I support an extension of the existing WCE into Abbotsford. Then we serve that whole huge population with transit for a much smaller investment. Rail down Hwy 1 just doesn't make sense - nobody lives around it!

[Dave2]

Interesting how the Mayor of Port Moody was all in favour of Skytrain to Coquitlam, ditto the Mayor of Burnaby; compared that to the two clowns in office now.

[eduardo88]

Other cities have shown that highway ROWs make poor locations for rapid transit because the median stations are not walkable or in dense areas. In addition, the median on the TCH will be disappearing with the widening for the Gateway project. If the twinned Port Mann is used for LRT service, the line should diverge from the highway ROW to serve more populated/developable areas close by, rather than staying in the highway ROW.
I think the old interurban line would be a better choice south of the Fraser - but would require a new rail bridge at New West to allow frequent service across the Fraser River.


The reason i chose the TCH is because it would be a quick route for a train to take. This wouldn't be LRT, so it wouldnt need to have many stops, it would probably have max 5-6 before getting to Waterfront. Most of these stations would be park and ride and serve as an alternative for driving into town. this would not be rapid transit such as SkyTrain, not exactly something you'd use to go one stop at 3pm, but more into Vancouver mornings and out in the evenings...

[officedweller]

Ok, but that wuld be a lot of new infrastructure for a limited sevice.

[cornholio]

well i had a bit of time today so i created a quick map of a Vancouver to Chiliwack express line. This line would have electrified high speed trains(200-350km/ph). The stations are generarly atlest 20km apart to maximize the speed of the trains because they require to speed up and slow down.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=49.150103,-122.738227&spn=0.620678,1.274414&z=10&om=0
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m131/alesmarv/expressline.jpg?t=1201073587

1)Basicly the line starts at Waterfront and travels along the rail line up to the Grandview cut were there would be a station at Broadway.
2)It then continues through the cut to just past Nanaimo where it goes in to a bored tunnel under neath the southern hillside and emerges at the highway were it continues down the middle until it goes back in to a bored tunnel under Goverment st and Keswick park with a station at Lougheed.
3)After the station it continues in a bored tunnel and turns back to the highway were it follows the railway up to around King Edward street were it goes back in to a bored tunnel under the Fraser. This tunnel can also have capacity for freight rail to replace the New Westminster crossing. The bored tunnel then continues south along the power line right of way up to King George highway were it goes in to a station at Surrey central.
4)It then continues in a bored or cut and cover tunnel under King George station until it reaches the power line right of way south of Bear creek park were it takes a turn to the east and continues in a trench or at grade(were possible). It goes just past 152st were it turns south and continues through the farmland t link up with the railway again. It follows its right of way at grade through Langley and another station and continues along it(next to Glover rd) up to the number 1.
5)There it goes back in to the midle and continues all the way to Chiliwack at grade with a station and park and ride facility in Abotsford and Chiliwack.
*)Also the current WCE would stop running along Burrard inlet and would turn south at Coquitlam station and merge with this line. People in Poert moody can just take the Evergreen line to Lougheed station or Coquitlam station to get on a express train to downtown.
A majority of the line is at grade and almost all of it follows either a rail right of way, a highway right of way or a power line right of way. The only pricy tunnels would be 1.5 or so km one in Vancouver, a 1.5 or so km one by lougheed station(this can also be eliminated and the station moved to Braid), and a new tunnel for a crossing under the fraser. The only long tunnel cut and cover would be down King George for a few km.

***There can alos be more stations along the line with tracks to allow other trains to by pass them while their in a station. A station on 152 for White rock commuters and a few more along the number one between Langley and Chiliwack would be usefull to maximize the coverage of the line. A station around Willingdon would also be good. But all these stations should be able to be bypassed by express trains that can pick up and maintain a decent speed for longer distances in stead of having to come to a stop and reacelerate to 200+km and hour.

[paradigm4]

well i had a bit of time today so i created a quick map of a Vancouver to Chiliwack express line. This line would have electrified high speed trains(200-350km/ph). The stations are generarly atlest 20km apart to maximize the speed of the trains because they require to speed up and slow down.

Ya, you aren't going to reach those speeds without a far more straight alignment. And the distance you are going is way too short between stations to even reach such a high speed. High speed rail is for actual long commutes. Like, maybe Vancouver to Chilliwack at least.

[Pinion]

As a North Vancouverite who sold his car last year, I hate the lack of public transit options. The seabus is horribly slow and I can't even get to my work on False Creek by bus from the Lonsdale area via any reasonable route. A skytrain from Waterfront to Lonsdale would be heaven, even though I am right on the other main Lonsdale drag (3rd street). A NIMBY I am not.

[mr.x2]

well i had a bit of time today so i created a quick map of a Vancouver to Chiliwack express line. This line would have electrified high speed trains(200-350km/ph). The stations are generarly atlest 20km apart to maximize the speed of the trains because they require to speed up and slow down.

I agree with paradigm....that's a bit too fast, especially for a curvy route. Commuter rail speed is more proper and ideal, something with a top speed of 140-160 km/h.

[worldwide]

skytrain to langley is nonsesical. mabey WCE but really an express bus would do fine. im all for extending the current WCE to abbotsford, and the ROW is already there. theres a spur line from DT mission to DT Abbotsford and then on to huntingdon and washington state. a suburban B line style bus system could connect the WCE in downtown abby with a guilford skytrain station. it would go like this. abby DT, abby clearbrook, abby west, aldergrove, langley city, guilford.

[tintinium]

HSR that fast needs a minimum turn radius of about 4000m.

(A Circle with an over 24km circumference)

It's also nowhere NEAR practical... unless Chilliwack were the size of Vancouver and Vancouver the size of Toronto... and even then...

'twould be a waste to run the train down the TCH. It should run where there are people. There are existing ROWs that run where the people are. Also, a park n' ride on the TCH would be useless as much of line-ups people have are just getting TO the freeway. It's insane.

Further away from the highway would be MUCH better. Give those without ready access to the TCH an alternative.

PS: Forgot that they names the Mark II "Fat Albert" Thx for the article, od.

[Rusty Gull]

As a North Vancouverite who sold his car last year, I hate the lack of public transit options. The seabus is horribly slow and I can't even get to my work on False Creek by bus from the Lonsdale area via any reasonable route. A skytrain from Waterfront to Lonsdale would be heaven, even though I am right on the other main Lonsdale drag (3rd street). A NIMBY I am not.

I like the Seabus. I don't know about it being too slow. The ride between the North Shore and downtown Vancouver is only 12 minutes -- which is much faster than driving a car over the Lions Gate Bridge during rush hour.

I know for a fact that the boats themselves are capable of travelling much faster, but they don't because of the wake they create.

What the North Shore needs is better transit connections -within- the North Shore, especially up and down the Lonsdale corridor between Lonsdale Quay and West Vancouver.

[Nutterbug]

I like the Seabus. I don't know about it being too slow. The ride between the North Shore and downtown Vancouver is only 12 minutes -- which is much faster than driving a car over the Lions Gate Bridge during rush hour.

I know for a fact that the boats themselves are capable of travelling much faster, but they don't because of the wake they create.

From those puny little things?

Is it because they don't want to compromise smoothness of the ride for speed for the passengers onboard?

[tintinium]

not enough barfbags on board to go much faster. :D

WikiPedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaBus) infers it could travel about 50% faster:
The crossing takes 10-12 minutes in each direction, with a 3-5 minute turnaround and, therefore, operates on a 15 minute turn-around schedule. At these times, over 50 crossings are made a day. During the evenings and on Sundays, service is reduced to a 30 minute schedule with only one ferry operating.
The Burrard Otter SeaBus departing Lonsdale Quay.
The Burrard Otter SeaBus departing Lonsdale Quay.

The SeaBus is capable of operating on a 12 minute turnaround (or even 10 minutes with simultaneous loading and unloading). However, at the higher speeds, the wake created disturbs other users of the Burrard Inlet. During overloads they do sometimes operate at the higher speeds.

[officedweller]

WRT Skytrain to Langley - in the long term a line would feed Surrey City Centre's downtown, but I agree that for the moment, a WCE style DMU commuter train would suffice as long as it provides connectivity to Skytrain so passengers can get to Surrey City Centre and other cross-commuting destnations, as well as downtown Vancouver.

May be worthwhile to post this railway map (some are historical and no longer exist) from N. Roughley's website - you can see the route of the BC Electric to Chiliwack - not the straightest route.
http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/whats_new.html

http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/graphics/rail/1916_map_lrg.jpg

And here it is from the current Southern Railway of BC website:

http://www.sryraillink.com/images/sry_route_map.gif

[mr.x2]

The SeaBus is capable of operating on a 12 minute turnaround (or even 10 minutes with simultaneous loading and unloading). However, at the higher speeds, the wake created disturbs other users of the Burrard Inlet. During overloads they do sometimes operate at the higher speeds.

it's almost like we're scared of doing anything that improves efficiency around here in Vancouver...

[Nutterbug]

it's almost like we're scared of doing anything that improves efficiency around here in Vancouver...

Here's a precaution. Stop windsurfing and small craft pleasure boating in the Seabus' path.

Surely sealife are smart and quick enough to get the hell out of the way when the thing approaches.

[tintinium]

http://www.sryraillink.com/images/sry_route_map.gif
od, fantastic Map. The more I see that Blue line (the red line on this image) to Abbotsford and Chilliwack, the more I think it's makes more and more sense to pursue and run a DMU there. I mean, if nothing else, a train to YXX would be nice.

[cornholio]

HSR that fast needs a minimum turn radius of about 4000m.

(A Circle with an over 24km circumference)

It's also nowhere NEAR practical... unless Chilliwack were the size of Vancouver and Vancouver the size of Toronto... and even then...

'twould be a waste to run the train down the TCH. It should run where there are people. There are existing ROWs that run where the people are. Also, a park n' ride on the TCH would be useless as much of line-ups people have are just getting TO the freeway. It's insane.

Further away from the highway would be MUCH better. Give those without ready access to the TCH an alternative.

PS: Forgot that they names the Mark II "Fat Albert" Thx for the article, od.

With tilting train technology for a train traveling at 200km an hour you only need 2000m, and not even that in some cases. But yeah the acceleration and deccelaration is a problem since a top speed of 200km an hour would mean you would only hit it for around 5-10 or so km on a 20km stretch between the stations. Use maglev and the problem is solved...though thats not going to happen. But it would surely get people out of their cars when you can get from Surrey to say Broadway in 5-10min and then hop on a skytrain extension to hit your final destination.

[DubbleD]

Map with routes:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/2215548623_71a7cae9b0_o.jpg

Network map:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2220/2216328170_6d9116b338_o.jpg

Blue Line = Skytrain Expo Line, with extension south to Newton/72nd ave, and SE through Guildford to Fleetwood

Yellow Line - Skytrain Millennium Line, with extension west along Broadway/10th ave to UBC.

Green Line - Skytrain Evergreen Line, with extension east into PoCo / Burke Mtn.

Black Line - Skytrain Circle Line. Perhaps the most 'fantasy' of all these lines. Route uses East Hastings, traveling down Douglas from Boundary Rd to Brentwood, connecting Brentwood with Metrotown (and BCIT along the way), then west along 41st Ave all the way out to UBC. From UBC, travel along Broadway/10th ave (Millennium line extension) to Macdonald, then traveling through kits, with stations at Kits Beach and English Bay Beach (with tunnel under English Bay), traveling up Denman w/ Station at Denman/Georgia for Stanley Park. Both these West End stations would help capture the very dense population... then traveling through Coal Harbour back to Waterfront.

Red Line - Canada Line, with extension south to Francis Road

Purple Line - LRT line using existing right-of-way through North Delta, Surrey, connecting with Expo Line in Newton, continuing east to Cloverdale, Langley, north along 200th to Walnut Grove and then east to Fort Langley.

Orange Line - LRT line, vast majority using existing ROW through Arbutus Corridor and along north side of Fraser River. Spur to Guildford built along with twinning of Port Mann bridge connecting there to Expo Line spur. From approx Granville Island, bridge crossing False Creek (adjacent to Burrard St Bridge) then going into a tunnel under Burrard Street, continuing under Burrard Inlet to North Shore. Two spur lines - one up Lonsdale, and the other west along Marine Dr to Park Royal, Ambleside and Dundarave.

West Coast Express can easily be extended south from Mission to Abbotsford, and also Eastward (just across the river from Mission) out to Chilliwack.

[Pinion]

I like the Seabus. I don't know about it being too slow. The ride between the North Shore and downtown Vancouver is only 12 minutes -- which is much faster than driving a car over the Lions Gate Bridge during rush hour.

I know for a fact that the boats themselves are capable of travelling much faster, but they don't because of the wake they create.

What the North Shore needs is better transit connections -within- the North Shore, especially up and down the Lonsdale corridor between Lonsdale Quay and West Vancouver.

Yeah the speed of the boats themselves is not horrible, but sailing every 30 minutes after 6:30pm is unreasonable. Not everyone works 9-5. It takes me an hour and 15 minutes to get from False Creek to Lower Lonsdale after work at midnight and the Seabus is full.

I can't believe they're not seriously considering bringing the street car back to Lonsdale. That would be tourism gold. This talk about having it run east-west because it's cheaper is absurd (not that that'll ever happen either).

[officedweller]

Map with routes:

Black Line - Skytrain Circle Line.

Red Line - Canada Line, with extension south to Francis Road

Purple Line - ..... north along 200th to Walnut Grove and then east to Fort Langley.

Orange Line - .....continuing under Burrard Inlet to North Shore. Two spur lines - one up Lonsdale, and the other west along Marine Dr to Park Royal, Ambleside and Dundarave.

Yeah the Black Line is definitely way out there.
Red Line - I could see a streetcar or LRT network evolve in Richmond based on the former InterUrban ROW down Railway Avenue and over to the Canada Line (on Gilbert?).
Purple Line - either that or on to Abbotsford.
Orange Line - I could see the Expo Line head to the north shore looping through East Hastings and covering more of the North Vancouver waterfront areas (Park & Tilford). Apparently frequent freight usage on the line south of Marine Drive currently prevents use for a DMU service, but it is eventually planned to be implemented (the East Fraserlands plan accommodates it and it would serve the GlenLyon Business Park very well - maybe even Big Bend).

[DubbleD]

Yeah the Black Line is definitely way out there.
Red Line - I could see a streetcar or LRT network evolve in Richmond based on the former InterUrban ROW down Railway Avenue and over to the Canada Line (on Gilbert?).
Purple Line - either that or on to Abbotsford.
Orange Line - I could see the Expo Line head to the north shore looping through East Hastings and covering more of the North Vancouver waterfront areas (Park & Tilford). Apparently frequent freight usage on the line south of Marine Drive currently prevents use for a DMU service, but it is eventually planned to be implemented (the East Fraserlands plan accommodates it and it would serve the GlenLyon Business Park very well - maybe even Big Bend).

Definitly like the Richmond ROW down Railway to Steveston.

For Marine Drive, the fact that the ROW exists would still make it easier to build a line, even it at parts it were elevated above the existing freight lines where necessary. I'm not a particular fan of DMU and would see it as LRT that could then continue in the 'boulevard' in the Arbutus Corrdidor (possibly tunneling through the kill between Kerrisdale and King Edward to avoid all those NIMBY's for literally having a train in their backyard). And personally, I think that removing the SeaBus from that route and using a train under Burrard Inlet would likely great increase transit use from North Shore, cutting the relatively lengthy SeaBus travel time down to 2-3 minutes, with more frequent service. SeaBus could then be re-allocated perhaps to a Lonsdale-PortMoody Route? Or even Kits-Ambleside?

[officedweller]

The main reason that DMU is talked about for the Marine Drive line is because it was examined by Translink in the context of the Coquitlam corridors study (NE vs SE). One of the options for the SE route would have been DMU (extending further west to Cambie).

Here's the Translink Report prepared for the Northeast Sector Corridor (Evergreen Line) analysis:
http://www.translink.bc.ca/files/pdf/plan_proj/area_plans/northeast_sector/final_technical_report.pdf

http://www.translink.bc.ca/EvergreenLine/project_reports.asp

[deasine]

I would prefer LRT over DMU too.

[mr.x2]

i like both DMU and LRT....however, the advantage with LRT is that it can be a continuation of the Arbutus line. They'd never allow DMU on Arbutus.

[spitkicker08]

i have a question about the evergreen line alignment.
if it is skytrain, will it follow the millennium like all the way to ubc? if it does, it makes the millennium like kind of not there, if you know what i mean. the only stations it would serve on its own is from columbia to lougheed.
what about diverting it at a certain point to travel down hastings and meet the expo line at waterfront?

[mr.x2]

i have a question about the evergreen line alignment.
if it is skytrain, will it follow the millennium like all the way to ubc? if it does, it makes the millennium like kind of not there, if you know what i mean. the only stations it would serve on its own is from columbia to lougheed.
what about diverting it at a certain point to travel down hastings and meet the expo line at waterfront?

Yes, the Evergreen Line will likely begin at UBC if it is SkyTrain.....just like how the Millennium Line today begins at Waterfront.

A Hastings rapid transit rail line is decades away...

[spitkicker08]

i don't really like that either. i think the millennium like should begin at columbia. when the ubc extension is finished, the millennium like would be even more confusing for people.

[deasine]

Well I guess the solution to that: we can have the line from UBC to Coquitlam the M-Line and the Evergreen Line from Waterfront to Coquitlam via Columbia and Lougheed Town Center. That complex track configuration switch south of Lougheed station allows us to do this. I guess that's the only good I see from the track configuration vs. flyover as there is more flexibility.

Some new signs and "M-Line stickers" will be needed to be changed at Braid and Sapperton as well as new signage with all stations (especially transfer stations).

Moreover, this new network uses less transfers for people from South of Fraser to Coquitlam Central. For instance, a commuter from King George takes SkyTrain to Columbia and only needs to make a transfer to the Evergreen Line.

And this was the original rapid transit plan. I wonder if that's the reason they decided with the track switch configuration instead of a flyover.

[Rusty Gull]

Yeah the speed of the boats themselves is not horrible, but sailing every 30 minutes after 6:30pm is unreasonable. Not everyone works 9-5. It takes me an hour and 15 minutes to get from False Creek to Lower Lonsdale after work at midnight and the Seabus is full.

I can't believe they're not seriously considering bringing the street car back to Lonsdale. That would be tourism gold. This talk about having it run east-west because it's cheaper is absurd (not that that'll ever happen either).

Agreed that the 30 minute wait is unreasonable. I'm assuming the addition of a third seabus in 2009 will fix this situation.

As for the streetcar, North Vancouver did look into one running up and down Lonsdale, but deemed it too expensive based on forecasted ridership. Also, the grade between the waterfront and 13th is too steep. (not that it stops San Francisco). :(

You're right, though, an east-west streetcar in North Vancouver would be a relative waste compared to one that ran along the high-density Lonsdale corridor.

[SFUVancouver]

I would like the name of the Production Way-University station to change to SFU-Production Way. The 99 B-Line doesn't go to "University" afterall. An opportunity exists when Translink changes of all of the signage to reflect the new 95 B-Line and, of course, when the Canada Line is finished.

[officedweller]

Well I guess the solution to that: we can have the line from UBC to Coquitlam the M-Line and the Evergreen Line from Waterfront to Coquitlam via Columbia and Lougheed Town Center. That complex track configuration switch south of Lougheed station allows us to do this. I guess that's the only good I see from the track configuration vs. flyover as there is more flexibility.

....

Moreover, this new network uses less transfers for people from South of Fraser to Coquitlam Central. For instance, a commuter from King George takes SkyTrain to Columbia and only needs to make a transfer to the Evergreen Line.

And this was the original rapid transit plan. I wonder if that's the reason they decided with the track switch configuration instead of a flyover.

The current track configuration doesn't easily allow for a Columbia to Coquitlam routing - a train would have to reverse at Lougheed. I'm not sure if they would do that (although you are correct that the third track allows a reversal without interfering too much with through trains.
The original plan for the Lougheed Station had the fork of the wye facing south (rather than facing east, as-built). A south-facing wye would have easily allowed through trains from Coquitlam to access either UBC or Columbia and would have served the LRSP goal of suburb-to-suburb (town centre-to-town centre) commuting. Unfortunately, that was changed at some point in the M-Line's construction (probably when the station was moved from adjacent to Lougheed Mall to an allignment along Lougheed Highway).

Here's a Skytrain Special Commission Connectivity Study dating from when Lougheed Station was oriented north-south and the wye faced south:

http://www.eao.gov.bc.ca/epic/output/documents/p53/d15491/1058982483769_c5027bb0559140c8bc0acfed4615db00.pdf

[deasine]

Tha report has horrible diagrams. The ones we came up with in previous discussions made more sense. I need to see those pictures again HAHA. This discussion always surfaces back up to the top. =P

With the M-Line UBC-Coquitlam Central and Ev-Line Coquitlam Central-Waterfront option, this is what we can see at Lougheed Station with train reversial:
Let P1 be the platform not used.
Let P2 be the platform that is going to VCC/Clark currently.
Let P3 be the platform that is going to Columbia currently.

M-Line Trains to UBC use P1.
M-Line Trains to Coquitlam Central use P2.
Ev-Line Trains to UBC use P2.
Ev-Line Trains to Coquitlam use P3.

[officedweller]

Tha report has horrible diagrams.

The "as-built" is NOT the same as the report's diagrams. The report's design was changed to what we have now.

[bugsy]

Network map:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2220/2216328170_6d9116b338_o.jpg


OH SHI-
Now that's what I call a real rail network!

[DubbleD]

Well, if you want people to get out of their cars . . .
And if you're looking to encourage density . . .

[bugsy]

http://www.vanc.igs.net/~roughley/graphics/rail/1916_map_lrg.jpg

I have a rather simplistic idea. What if we simply asked (and subsidize if necessary) a private, FOR-PROFIT company to contract the owners of the existing railways in Vancouver to run ELECTRIFIED (overhead lines, not 3rd rail) commuter trains on all of them? Not Bombardier's peices of crap built by stolen taxdollars of course, Kawasaki Heavy Industries (manufacturer of JR trains, Shinkansen, New York City Subway) comes to mind.

By that I mean not trampling of property rights by "zoning bylaws", pandering to socialist labor union hacks with their BIG GOVERNMENT MUST RUN EVERYHTING mindset, and stomping out NIMBYism and the anti-development luddites the Significant Projects Streamlining Act.

Now you suddenly have a Japan quality railway system serving ALL of Vancouver! If such a huge system existed, I would bet most people would never drive to work again.

[jlousa]

Most of those rail lines are used quite heavily, and the rail companies would be very hesitant on renting them out as you put yourself in a bind if you need to expand and you've leased out your extra capacity. Some of the lines could probably be used though.

[cornholio]

^yes like you said most of those lines are not only used heavily but are congested. Also freight traffic and commuter rail dont mix, these freight trains are slow, long and often need to use the tracks as holding space to stop and wait for the congested lines and yards to make room for them. If you want anything more then infrequent peak hour rail service like the WCE then you need to build dedicated commuter rail, or at the very least double our rail infrastructure and build more rail yards.

[bugsy]

Unfortunate. Is there no hope for commuter rail in Vancouver? And by that I don't mean light rail's glorified street cars.