[J Church]

suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.sfmta.com/cms/home/sfmta.sfmta

[slock]

I agree, it could be a lot better.

2 questions.

1. Are these changes, graphic, TEP, website etc. a result of Nat Ford's leadership or were they in place prior to his arrival? Do you think he can change the culture of Muni? What are your thoughts on him?

2. So then there's the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Authority that oversees the Municipal Railway and the Department of Parking and Traffic. But there's also the San Francisco Country Transportation Authority. Is it necessary that they are separate?

Okay four questions.

[J Church]

It's Muni. The site has probably been in development five years. (Looks a bit like it, too.)

Ford ... I have mixed feelings about Ford. That's a whole other post, and not at 20 minutes' til go-home. But I will say that TEP also predates him.

Santa Clara VTA and LA MTA are but two examples of combined county transportation planning and operations bodies in California.

[the94112]

The older site looked to PBS for me.

[J_Taylor]

WTF.
I think I could make something better than that on Notepad...

[BTinSF]

I guess I'll have to be odd man out. I agree the home page is kind of ugly and the whole thing looks like the PR people had too much influence, but I clicked through to "Transit" and actually found more useful information more rapidly than I ever could at the old site--and at least for now it seemed more current. One of my gripes about the old site was that it was never updated in a timely manner.

Some of the other submenus like "walk" don't really offer much, but what can you say about walking?

[fflint]

White on black? That hurts my eyes. Hurts. Eyes. Bad.

[Damien]

I guess all those other great designers in the region, which correct me if I'm wrong, is the heart of the internet revolution, weren't available? :shrug:

Sort of like making a fat kid the Kenyan representative for the Olympic marathon.

[EastBayHardCore]

there are no words.

[J Church]

Sort of like making a fat kid the Kenyan representative for the Olympic marathon.

Which, BT is actually right, is a step up from the old site. Grandma in a wheelchair?

[WonderlandPark]

Agree :yuck:

[J Church]

Hey Muni Website, I need to figure out how to get from my house to my new job. Can you help?

First page looks to be a bunch of news I can't use, a letter from some guy I've never heard of, a newsletter signup--wait, I see "Transit" and i see a search box. I'll try the search box first. Enter "maps" ...

# New T-Third Service
22k
... Street logo] [gif map of new T - Third service] The T - THIRD line ...

# Service Notes
31k
... , see the Muni Owl Map (offsite link, PDF). PDF help is available. ...
... 5:00 a.m. See our Maps page for Owl maps. 9 - San Bruno Late night 9 ...
... Maps page for Owl maps. 9 - San Bruno Late night 9 San Bruno service ...

# AT&T Park Service
39k
... ballpark. [This map 5kb. Click for 121kb map.] "Map of AT&T/Pac ...
... Click for 121kb map.] "Map of AT&T/Pac Bell Park service" Click on ...

# Monster Park Service
30k
... Football service map as zoomable PDF, 188kb (offsite link) ( PDF ...

# PDF file T-Third service map (version 5 pdf)
599k
... - Third service map (version 5 pdf) T - Third service map (version 5 ...

# Muni Maps
13k
... ;s Street & Transit Map is a comprehensive guide to public transit in ...
... in the city. The map may be purchased for $3.00 at various locations, ...
... Maps Muni Maps Muni Maps Muni Maps [Skip to content.] Muni’s ...

OK, #6 is "Muni Maps." Maybe that's it?

SFMTA home > Transit > Maps

Muni’s Street & Transit Map is a comprehensive guide to public transit in the city. The map may be purchased for $3.00 at various locations, including the Muni kiosks at the Powell & Market and Beach & Hyde cable car terminals and most everywhere in town that sells books and periodicals. A version of the map can be viewed at most Muni bus shelters and in Muni Metro stations.

But I don't want to buy the damned thing, I just want to take a look here. Wait--up above, I see "Official Map".

http://www.sfmta.com/cms/mmaps/official.htm

OK, there are a bunch of maps, but I've finally found what I'm looking for--at least, I can find out which routes I'll need to take. Schedules are a whole 'nother story.

But what might've happened if I'd gone in the other way?

(1) Click "Transit"

(2) Click "Maps"

(3) Click "Official Maps"

(4) Click for .gif or .pdf version of "system map"

That's too many steps for such a high-profile piece of information. At the bare minimum, there should be a direct shortcut to the maps page--the one with the actual maps on it, not the pitch to go buy one--on the front page.

Should I go on? The site is just shite. It's amazing to me that the seventh-largest transit agency in the country, in the IT capital of the world, couldn't do better. But then it is Muni.

[northbay420]

WTF.
I think I could make something better than that on Notepad...

yea, i only use notepad when i make a site. the site certainly isnt good by any means, but it seems to me waaaayyyy better then the old one.

the website is representative of the transit agency its about. mediocre at best. if a mediocre transit agency came up with a really good website id wonder instead about their priorities. now, in a odd way, im just reassured.

[BTinSF]

# Muni Maps
13k
... ;s Street & Transit Map is a comprehensive guide to public transit in ...
... in the city. The map may be purchased for $3.00 at various locations, ...
... Maps Muni Maps Muni Maps Muni Maps [Skip to content.] Muni’s ... [/i]

OK, #6 is "Muni Maps." Maybe that's it?

SFMTA home > Transit > Maps

Muni’s Street & Transit Map is a comprehensive guide to public transit in the city. The map may be purchased for $3.00 at various locations, including the Muni kiosks at the Powell & Market and Beach & Hyde cable car terminals and most everywhere in town that sells books and periodicals. A version of the map can be viewed at most Muni bus shelters and in Muni Metro stations.

But I don't want to buy the damned thing, I just want to take a look here. Wait--up above, I see "Official Map".



In their defense, YOU don't want to buy the map but others might. Last year, before a trip to NYC, I went to their site looking precisely to see if they sold a map equivalent to the Muni Map that I could buy upon arrival in their fair city. In recent years, when I'm planning to spend a few days in a city with any reasonable public transit I try to buy a map of the system if one exists (I've got a collection--Chicago, Vancouver, a commercial one of the NYC system). So I figured that part of the site might be aimed at tourists, not locals who probably know where to buy the map if they want one (I do--I buy a new one every few years in case I want to ride an unfamiliar route).

[J Church]

Great. But something tells me most users of the website would rather see the map now than be told it can be purchased.

It's about basic information architecture. Understand your audience, prioritize, minimize clicks. That's all I was trying to say.

[WonderlandPark]

Great. But something tells me most users of the website would rather see the map now than be told it can be purchased.

It's about basic information architecture. Understand your audience, prioritize, minimize clicks. That's all I was trying to say.

Agree. Map and timetable should be 1 click deep and promiment. MUNI is in the transit business, and that is what should count the most.

[jamison]

I spoke with the team which designed the site, both of them, tonight. You can probably tell from looking, the site architecture is more heavily influenced by the internal politics and org structure than the users of the site.

[Richard Mlynarik]

I spoke with the team which designed the site, both of them, tonight. You can probably tell from looking, the site architecture is more heavily influenced by the internal politics and org structure than the users of the site.

1) Bring back transitinfo.org.

2) Shoot every single "web design professional" and "web architect" on the planet.

[BTinSF]

Great. But something tells me most users of the website would rather see the map now than be told it can be purchased.

It's about basic information architecture. Understand your audience, prioritize, minimize clicks. That's all I was trying to say.

And basically, I agree with you. I'm just trying to point out a few features that "suck" a little less than totally.

[jamison]

1) Bring back transitinfo.org.

2) Shoot every single "web design professional" and "web architect" on the planet.

Yes, that makes perfect sense! Instead of hiring design professionals to design web sites, shoot them. That way every other site will be badly designed and this will look good by comparison.

What do you have against design professionals and what does it have to do with the SFMTA's internally designed web site?

[jamison]

And basically, I agree with you. I'm just trying to point out a few features that "suck" a little less than totally.

And the two aren't exclusionary. A maps page should be the central hub of all thing related to maps. There's plenty of room to have links to view online, download PDF, and Where/How to buy if you design the page that way.

If well architected well, Where/How to buy will link to a page which answers that question, but goes a step further. The good designer asks, why would someone want to buy a map? What other information might they need?

You called out the perfect example with tourists and travelers. If they want to buy a map for their trip, they could probably use some help figuring out which pass to buy (how long are you going to stay? We've got 1, 3, 7 day passes for you, and yes they do include the cable cars)

And it goes on like that for the entire site. There are tools we use to identify these key tasks and design for them.

[WonderlandPark]

Yes, that makes perfect sense! Instead of hiring design professionals to design web sites, shoot them. That way every other site will be badly designed and this will look good by comparison.


Yeah, designers suck, why not just have the secretary just output that excel file to html and generate something like this: http://www.hrodc.com/

:rolleyes:

[jamison]

Yeah, designers suck, why not just have the secretary just output that excel file to html and generate something like this: http://www.hrodc.com/

:rolleyes:

All you need do is follow Strongbad's web design fundamentals (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail51.html).

[J Church]

Freakin' hilarious.

Richard's site, of course, is notable for being more minimalist than craigslist. Not that this is a bad thing.

[jamison]

Richard's site, of course, is notable for being more minimalist than craigslist. Not that this is a bad thing.

Minimalist design is the most challenging. See how five designers tackled a craigslist redesign (http://designeye.org/listguy/). Check out the presentation, not just the design, to see the thought process that went into it.

[BTinSF]

On their own web site (at http://www.streetcar.org/mim/streetcars/eline/index.html ), the Market St. Railway still says, "The E-Embarcadero historic streetcar line is scheduled to begin service in late 2006. It will run between Fisherman’s Wharf and the Caltrain Depot in Mission Bay." I couldn't find any mention of the E line on Muni's new web site. Is the idea completely dead? I sure wish they'd do it.

[jamison]

On their own web site (at http://www.streetcar.org/mim/streetcars/eline/index.html ), the Market St. Railway still says, "The E-Embarcadero historic streetcar line is scheduled to begin service in late 2006. It will run between Fisherman’s Wharf and the Caltrain Depot in Mission Bay." I couldn't find any mention of the E line on Muni's new web site. Is the idea completely dead? I sure wish they'd do it.

The E-Embarcadero is not dead, the soonest it would open is late this year, but next year is more likely. Only double-ended cars can run on the E-Line, and many of them are out of service. Most of our double-ended cars are the oldest in the fleet and need the most work, Streetcar No. 1 had an electrical short and needs it's 50 year overhaul (seriously, it hasn't had an overhaul since the early 60's) before it will run again. Pulling cars off the F-Line would be needed and the E-Embarcadero is a novelty right now, while the F-Line is an important part of our transit system.

Muni is also starting T-Third Street service and it's important all the kinks get worked out of that before anything else.