[GoflamesGo]

In the calgary thread we've been discussing different alternatives to the CPR tracks going thru our downtown. They go right between 9th and 10th aves literally cutting our downtown in 2. What are some of the possible solutions to this?? tunnel? trench? building over it? or diverting the lines all together?

What have other cities done with this problem? and how can this be implemented in a downtown where over 125 000 people work and live every day?

[bob1954]

Build over the tracks! Downtown Chicago has 5 train stations for passenger, commuter, 3 are under buildings or rather they have built over the tracks! Otherwise be prepard to shell out a shit load of money to the CP (in Calgarys' case), to reroute the tracks!

[feepa]

I didn't realize there was much option to re-route the tracks in Calgarys Case

Here in Edmonton, they completely removed the downtown rail yard and tracks all together. (In favor for the rail yard that is along the yellowhead freeway)
Downtown is no longer cut off from north central Edmonton, and slowly but surely, a huge transformation is taking place

[mersar]

There isn't much option in Calgary's case. And almost any option to completely bypass the city would require moving at least 2 yards, not just one (Inglewood, and Bearspaw). And connecting back up to the mainline would require a creative approach on the west side of the city if it goes around the north [the current route is in the middle of the new provincial park, at the bottom of a valley thats fairly steep in places], and coming around from the south would require cutting through a reservation as well as a longer route although it does give more flexibility on where to reconnect as its a lot flatter.

[lubicon]

Edmonton is different in that CN's mainline runs through the city more or less along the Yellowhead, CP's mainline runs right through DT Calgary. I don't know what the solution is. It would be prohibitively expensive to re-route CP's line around Calgary, especially if they were to move their maintentance facilities as well. Who would pay for this??? And think of the huge environmental clean up costs for the maintenance yards. It's not up to CP to pay for it, I doubt the city could afford it, railroads are not a provincial responsibility, and the feds probably don't have an appetite for it either.

I can't see a tunnel working either due to the dangerous good issues and safety. A trench?? - perhaps but is it practical.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't really see the problem with the way things are. If you are worried about the tracks 'cutting off' the beltline from the DT core you can always build more pedestrian overpasses, and the 4 or so vehicle crossing locations seem to work fairly well.

[RWin]

Its not a problem. Its just the way it is.

[Surrealplaces]

I don't like the tracks, only because it cuts off downtown from the beltline, essentially cutting the core in two.

I still think the city can work around the tracks though, by simply developing on bothg sides of the tracks, where the tracks would be more like an extra-wide alleyway.

[Coldrsx]

build over it....a la vancouver new soccer stadium.

[GoflamesGo]

The problem with building over it, as someone mentioned already, is thatif for some reason, the train were to derail, or have an accident which caused it to explode, the buildings on top would be destroyed, or severly damaged. My trench idea involved making the roadway underpassed into at grade roads where the trench would go underneath. Another great solution for the trains/ the area between 9th and 10th would be to make a green space that spans the blocks between the qualex landmark development and the staples, and the qualex landmark and the golf canada square. some sort of mini central park thing. the train being in a trench would allow for small platforms to be build over the tracks at parts to create the feel of an open space thats not cut in half.

[Kevin_foster]

The problem with building over it, as someone mentioned already, is thatif for some reason, the train were to derail, or have an accident which caused it to explode, the buildings on top would be destroyed, or severly damaged. My trench idea involved making the roadway underpassed into at grade roads where the trench would go underneath. Another great solution for the trains/ the area between 9th and 10th would be to make a green space that spans the blocks between the qualex landmark development and the staples, and the qualex landmark and the golf canada square. some sort of mini central park thing. the train being in a trench would allow for small platforms to be build over the tracks at parts to create the feel of an open space thats not cut in half.

Yeah, ok, but when you think about what is underneath a building anyways (gas pipes, subways, water mains, pressure) and what the building is surrounded by (fuel trucks, city buses, cars, insane people). The risk could be mitigated by installing 10ft thick concrete on all sides :D

[Coldrsx]

^reinforced concrete and blast sheilds and force fields and foamy matresses oh and bubble wrap.

[GoflamesGo]

haha^^^ imagine that, its like a giant gun barrel. But thats a good point, there are risks everywhere.

[ReginaGuy]

Regina has a similar problem, the main railyard cuts downtown off from the warehouse district / pub / nightclub area. It's also a major eye sore

there was a plan to relocate the rail yard and develop the land, but nothing has happened yet :( I guess its just not priority

[bob1954]

Another idea is to build a deck over the tracks with open intervals and if the city or developers don't want to build highrises or whatever, they can use it for park space/green areas which eventually would be in middle of DT. Plus I believe the "green" area or parks would be a great selling point for developement next to, or close to the "Deck"! Just an idea. Something similar was done in Seattle several years ago. Interstate "90" runs underneath a hill and in construction they built park space over the freeway! It's beautiful, you don't even know there's 6 lanes of heavy trffic underneath!

[Distill3d]

there are a few buildings (in Calgary) tha build over the tracks downtown and bridge the gap. Gulf Canada Square and the Palliser/Calgary Tower complex come to mind. Why can't we just build more office space there? and whatever happened to that plan of the city to have the urban skywalk there? :shrug:

[Distill3d]

build over it....a la vancouver new soccer stadium.

i understand what you are trying to say with this, and i'm not sure if you are aware yet, but the Whitecaps did release a new plan for the stadium to be built over the SeaBus terminal:

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j155/starfcuk/renderings_vanmap.jpg

:cheers:

[Edmonchuck]

Its not a problem. Its just the way it is.

Yup. It sucks, but it is....

[m0nkyman]

And by hemming in the downtown, you have been forced to create a relatively compact and heavily built up downtown, right next to the very liveable Beltline. What was the complaint again?

[Surferguy]

How about this as a proposal.

The area above the tracks is built up about 5 to 6 stories creating an above ground tunnel if you will. The result is a parkade running the entire length of downtown (in theroy) that takes up 1/4 of the land on 9th ave and 1/4 of the space on 10th ave (either side of the tracks). Now the top of this parkade is completed to a linear park running the length of downtown. The parkade will also have provisions to create a LRT line running through the second or third level as a way of getting the train off of grade level and speeding up service through the core. The parkade acts as a bridge up and over the tracks to connect the core with the beltline, adds a much needed greenspace and ample parking for years to come. It solves all problems. Looking back down to grade on 10th ave. The parakades will need to be included as part of any proposal on 10th. All fronts of new buildings on 10th become retail and thus we have a new retail strip, maybe even push it to a wide bulavard (sp?) like europe.

The draw backs - what to do if a train derails under the parkades? maybe make the tunnel three stories high so heavy equipment can get in if needed??

It would definaltely be a huge draw for bums and riff raff. Lots of security would be needed, and very well lit.

Just think of how nice a park would be running the strip above the tracks? Looking down on that from your swanky office in Bankers during the summer would be enough to make you want to go outside at lunch and chill.

Outdoor skating rinks and landscaping could make it a first in any city in the world...

Could we be trendsetters? Who knows, but it's an idea at least...

[Distill3d]

...The area above the tracks is built up about 5 to 6 stories creating an above ground tunnel if you will....


you're right, it is an idea. but, i would think with the weight of a full loaded c-train being about 50 tonnes, then the weight of a fully loaded car on frieght train has got to be around that. so if we multiply that by say 50 thats 2500 tonnes. i'm sure if we could build an "above ground" tunnel that high off the ground and the train needs to stop and stay still for any length of time, that would crush a building. :shrug:

[bob1954]

The speed limit for trains/movement within "Yard Limits" is very restrictive! Probably no more than 15 MPH, therefore a derailment if it were to happen, would'nt be too serious I would imagine! Unless there's a toxic spill!

[Canterra]

Build as much +30 greenspace over that cpr rail corridor from 4st to 11st as possible. Landscape with lots of trees and pathways for walking and running. Replace the existing at grade parking square footage below with 50% bicycles and smaller cars and the other 50% for car pooling cars, vans, suv's and trucks only.

[Surferguy]

you're right, it is an idea. but, i would think with the weight of a full loaded c-train being about 50 tonnes, then the weight of a fully loaded car on frieght train has got to be around that. so if we multiply that by say 50 thats 2500 tonnes. i'm sure if we could build an "above ground" tunnel that high off the ground and the train needs to stop and stay still for any length of time, that would crush a building. :shrug:

I think you have mistaken me. The CPR tracks are to stay where they are. Everything else would be built up around them (much like the existing Gulf Canada Square, I think). The parkade over the existing tracks would essentially be the new above groudn tunnel. Maybe my vision is not getting through to well. I can't imagine a fully loaded c-train built into the parkade infrastructure collapsing it, there has to be a way. It's conceptual.

[GoflamesGo]

^ I like that idea, the only part that i would change is the C-train. I would leave that as a subway down 8th or 7th.

[Edmonchuck]

2 problems...

1. CP mainline, that means a lot of track changes costing billions...and they'll ask the province to pay

2. Railway trumps cars and buildings (freight that is). They can simply say "we were here first", and win. We have more than enough examples of this here in 'chuck.

So, any solution is all about building over...which probably won't happen due to the security and hazmat issues indicated above. Again, this is the mainline, not a trunk line. It will carry everything.

So, in reality and unfortunately, this is the realm of deal with it. Build nearby with the railway in mind just like you'd build with an airport nearby. Accept it, and plan around it. Which, if you look at Calgary, is exactly how it was and will be.

[Distill3d]

I think you have mistaken me. The CPR tracks are to stay where they are. Everything else would be built up around them (much like the existing Gulf Canada Square, I think). The parkade over the existing tracks would essentially be the new above groudn tunnel. Maybe my vision is not getting through to well. I can't imagine a fully loaded c-train built into the parkade infrastructure collapsing it, there has to be a way. It's conceptual.

yeah, i think i did mistake what you were attempting to state. i do think the idea to build above the tracks (IE: Gulf Canada Square) is a wonderful plan. it just sucks that it will probably never happen until one of us gets voted mayor.

[brentwood]

Hi guys, first post here. Have been lurking for a couple months. So glad to see others interested in the same issues as I am. The whole CPR thing has
bugged me for a long time. I think surferguy has some of the ideas I also have. I would change a few things though. These ideas apply mainly to the blocks between 4th St and 8th St but could be expanded beyond that. Here is a summary:

Leave the track areas completely untouched but build underground parkades along both 9th and 10th Avenues. Have an elevated park at +15 or +30 level
above the parkades. Build a few pedestrian bridges (both open air and enclosed) spanning the tracks to connect both sides.

Along the south side of 9th and the north side of 10th, have street level retail space fronting the avenues.

Calgary already has examples of this concept at McDougall and James Short School sites. As for the retail space, anyone familiar with the west side of Nathan Road bordering Kowloon Park in Hong Kong? There you have a slightly elevated park and retail fronting Nathan Road. This goes on for blocks with some access to the park above by way of stairs/open plazas etc.

I am not sure who owns all this land but surely they are interested in making money. Isn't underground parking and retail space a better return on some capital investment than ugly surface parking lots from now until infinity?

Let's see...we could have:

- heated parking in the core connected to the +15 system
- better connect the office core to the beltline
- create an inner city green space which the city is always talking about
- create streetfront retail corridors on 9th and 10th Aves (ie pedestrian friendly)
- rid ourselves of a complete eyesore

I know there is already some development planned for this area (Alberta Boots) but would this not work in the remaining blocks? A new Glenbow somehow bridging the tracks with an entrance at the foot of 6th or 7th St would also be a possibility. What do you guys think?

[Surferguy]

Welcome Brentwood!

I obvouisly have to agree with your idea here. The reason I suggested an aboveground parkade would be the obvious cost savings compared to going underground. I know that 9th ave is a major utlility corridor and the idea of tunneling and such under the ongoing operations of tracks stands as being a pretty big pain in the ass.

Hey Bronco - start making plans, this one could work!!!

[Doug]

The easiest reroute around Calgary would be to the north of the city, connecting with the existing CPR line coming in from Edmonton. That would place the rail corridor next to Deerfoot and still allow use of the existing maintenance facilities and service to the eastern industrial parks. The biggest challenge would be the grade coming or the Bow Valley and then back down to the highway 2 alignment. The detour would likely need to happen west of Cochrane.

The CPR line through downtown Calgary is nowhere near the barrier it once was. The sidings and industrial sites along the tracks are gone. It wouldn't be that difficult to develop around the tracks. One model is the Central Platte Valley in Denver. Residential buildings abut the tracks (2 or 3 lines) directly. Most of the buildings have enclosed parking on the first 4 floors or so such that that the residential units are well above. Another option would be commercial buildings spanning the tracks similar to Gulf Canada with additional underpasses at 11th St SW and 4th St SE (already planned). The underpasses could be more inviting to pedestrians (already tried at 1st St SW), with perhaps shops fronting the street. Another idea would be a central park along the lines of Chicago's Millennium between 5th and 11th St SW. The tracks could be surrounded by parking and then a park built on the lid above.

[GoflamesGo]

A park atop the tracks would be great. I dont understand why the line through downtown is such a "big" line. it doesnt seem that important.